0:00

Hey everyone, on Diaries Plus

0:02

we've put together a series called

0:04

Good Good Bad, which highlights some

0:06

of the adventures our team finds

0:08

the most groundbreaking, inspirational, and creative.

0:10

In a recent episode, we talked

0:13

with Caitlin Gerben and Jenny Abeg

0:15

about their incredible, dare

0:17

I say, mega-ultra endurance feat

0:19

on the North Cascades high

0:21

route. This was groundbreaking. What

0:24

is the North Cascades high route? It's something like 124 miles,

0:26

or maybe 60,000 feet of elevation gain. Is

0:31

that right, Caitlin? Something like that,

0:33

yeah. It's pretty, it's almost all

0:35

off trail, and a lot of

0:38

the travel is really challenging and

0:40

really slow. I think we kind

0:42

of like joked it's like North Cascades

0:44

finest terrain, which includes like the

0:46

worst of the worst bushwhacking you

0:49

can imagine, and then up traversing

0:51

these like beautiful glaciated

0:53

ridge lines and peaks where

0:56

you're on steep snow and on and off

0:58

rock and just kind of weaving

1:00

your way through the North

1:02

Cascades. It's funny because

1:04

I think on one level it's kind of like you would

1:06

say, quote unquote, this is running, but can

1:09

it be running if you have a rope?

1:11

Yeah, like if you're actually carrying a rope,

1:13

is that running? Yeah, so

1:15

I actually... Well,

1:17

we had like pretty light... To hear the rest

1:19

of Good Good Bad, please subscribe to Diaries Plus.

1:21

There's a link in the show notes. We

1:24

need you to do it. It makes a big

1:26

difference to the diaries, and right now the people that

1:28

are doing this are making the show happen for the

1:30

rest of the people. So if you can, support

1:33

the diaries for just $5 a month or $50 a year. Just

1:36

a few clicks. It's quite easy. Huge

1:38

heartfelt thanks to everyone who has subscribed.

1:41

You all rock. Check,

1:47

check. Is that thing on? Yeah. Yeah.

1:51

Marco, welcome formally

1:53

to the show. You've been helping us out here at

1:55

the diaries and duct taped the beer for like kind

1:58

of a while now. So

2:02

who are you and why are you here? Well,

2:05

thank you, Fitz. I

2:07

am a podcast producer. I live out here

2:09

in Hawaii. When I'm

2:11

not working on podcasts, I'm usually outside

2:13

surfing or climbing some

2:16

sweet Hawaiian chas. I

2:18

also help coach a kids team at a Wahoo

2:20

bouldering gym. But I think

2:23

to answer your question on why I'm here

2:25

right now on this mic speaking to you, I

2:28

love telling stories. It's, you

2:31

know, I think pretty rewarding to help someone tell

2:33

their story, especially if that story has like a

2:35

good message or a lesson

2:37

learned that might inform or inspire

2:39

whoever's listening. Do

2:42

you remember when you sort of felt

2:44

like you fell in

2:46

love or realized that you had, like

2:49

felt a calling towards that? Yeah,

2:51

I mean, I think I could recall a lot of moments,

2:54

but maybe the

2:56

first one was, you know, I

2:58

was going to college at University of Vermont at

3:00

the time and I was, they didn't

3:02

have like a journalism program there, but they had

3:04

a, you know, basically like one journalism class that

3:07

I was interested in taking it up. So

3:09

I took the class and, you know, just

3:12

to see what it was like. And for

3:14

a class assignment, I ended up writing a

3:16

profile piece on this

3:18

guy that I like worked with at the time at

3:20

this like Davey Kebabs

3:23

barbecue shop. Like we were both behind the grill.

3:26

Like he was a guy who like had

3:28

just dropped out of UVM, University

3:31

of Vermont. And he was,

3:35

you know, talking to him, he was kind of

3:37

lost and like didn't really know what he was, you

3:39

know, he didn't have like much direction, like where he wanted to go in

3:41

life. And so I ended up just

3:43

deciding to like spend a day with him. And, you know,

3:46

in the grand scheme of things, it

3:48

didn't really mean anything, but when

3:50

I shared the piece with him, he

3:52

like really lit up and it meant a lot to him to

3:56

see someone just kind of like write

3:58

about him, but also just like. see

4:00

him and recognize him. Being able

4:02

to listen and to ask questions

4:06

and to see people is

4:08

one of the, I feel that

4:11

same calling, I guess, so that

4:13

resonates. I think

4:15

a lot of us are

4:17

trying to find a life with purpose. The

4:20

search for it can put us in

4:23

places where we have the

4:25

ability to grow, where maybe

4:27

we get invited in or asked in, maybe

4:30

it's a crazy adventure or an

4:32

opportunity in a career, even

4:34

a relationship or like getting

4:36

to spend a day with the guy you worked

4:39

with behind the grill at a kebab place. And

4:42

I feel like in those moments, even though

4:44

the outcome is unknown, the

4:46

path ahead sort of gets a little bit clearer,

4:48

or at least the next few steps of the

4:51

path ahead get a little clearer. We see something

4:53

new and we start the

4:55

metaphorical walk. Marco, what

4:57

are we talking about today? Yeah,

4:59

so today we've got two stories

5:02

about heating the call. It's

5:04

about two people who stepped up big for what they

5:06

believed in. They had a passion

5:08

for the outdoors that carried them to

5:10

improbable moments where they stood to

5:12

have a big impact on society at large. You

5:15

know, it isn't easy and it certainly

5:17

isn't comfortable, but it's totally

5:19

inspiring. So today we

5:21

talk with Carolyn Gleich, professional ski

5:23

mountaineer, climate activist, about her decision

5:25

to run for US Senate. And

5:28

we hear from Alex Harris. He's a TikTok

5:30

creator who found himself the center

5:32

of an incredible push to stave off one

5:34

of the most contentious oil development projects of

5:36

his generation. Today we present Heed

5:39

the Call. I'm Fitz Cahall. I'm

5:41

Marco Siler-Gonzalez. You're listening

5:43

to The Dirtbag Diaries. Thanks

5:51

for watching. When

6:00

this opportunity arose to run for United

6:03

States Senate, I said yes, because I

6:05

felt I

6:20

had to, for one, I felt that Utah

6:22

needed me to serve, that I

6:24

could push the needle, I could hold our

6:26

elected officials accountable, and I

6:28

could help try to create a lot of

6:31

the changes that I want to

6:33

see. To take a stand

6:35

against gerrymandering, to help pave

6:37

a way for a government that works

6:39

for everyone, where all voices are heard,

6:41

to stand up for our protected public

6:44

lands and for climate action, to

6:46

defend reproductive freedom, for all of

6:48

these different things. And the other

6:50

thing is, is that we need more young people to run.

6:58

So this is Caroline Gleich. She's a

7:00

professional ski mountaineer and activist. In full

7:02

disclosure, Caroline is a friend of the

7:05

show. We've worked with Caroline through the

7:07

years on multiple projects. We've

7:09

watched her tackle huge missions

7:11

in the mountains. And

7:14

on a grassroots activism level, we've seen

7:16

her grow and expand

7:19

the scope of her work. And

7:21

I've often kind of wondered whether Caroline would

7:24

run for office. But when

7:26

she announced her Senate campaign earlier this year, I thought,

7:29

damn, she went big. Like,

7:32

that must take a lot of courage. That's

7:34

what I thought when I heard that. Yeah, I mean, like,

7:37

why do you say that? Well, I think that,

7:39

you know, look, I realize that there

7:41

are people who listen to the show,

7:43

who vote in different ways, who have

7:46

different opinions of politics

7:49

and which direction

7:51

America should head. And

7:54

I appreciate that. But I think that we also have

7:56

a level of respect for people that put

7:58

in effort and passion. into something. And

8:02

for her to do this, she has to really

8:04

believe. You like to run for Senate,

8:06

it's going to be an almost

8:10

complete giving of your time

8:12

resources and certainly a fair

8:14

amount of financial resources too. You're gonna

8:17

take some abuse and

8:19

to be very honest in Utah, if

8:21

you're running as a Democrat like

8:24

Caroline is, you have

8:26

to understand that they haven't elected

8:28

a Democrat to Senate since 1970,

8:31

which is a long time. Yeah,

8:33

so what you're saying is it's an uphill battle.

8:36

Yeah, it's not impossible

8:39

but it's an uphill battle

8:41

and on top of that, Caroline

8:43

is certainly not what I

8:46

think a lot of people would consider

8:48

an establishment candidate. You

8:52

haven't necessarily run for local

8:55

office or city council or

8:57

state rep. Why take

8:59

such a big leap right out

9:01

of the gate and not pick something smaller?

9:04

Well, you know Fitz, I like to go big. I

9:06

like to dream big. I like to

9:09

set a big hairy goal and have a

9:11

big project. And in Utah,

9:13

it's really challenging because in

9:15

2020 after the redistricting

9:18

process, our House

9:20

districts and our state Senate districts were

9:23

really gerrymandered. And our House seats

9:25

too. They are

9:27

so gerrymandered that Salt

9:30

Lake in the middle of Salt Lake,

9:32

it's divided into the four congressional districts.

9:34

And then at the state legislative level,

9:37

the districts, they divide our communities. And

9:39

so I did look at running for

9:42

different offices and I examined some of

9:44

the districts and I was so frustrated

9:46

with how our state

9:48

has been cut into these pieces to

9:51

keep Republicans in power and to silence

9:53

many people's voices. I organized

9:55

a run to redistrict where we ran

9:57

through all four of Utah's federal congressional

9:59

district. in about one and a half

10:01

miles. And I helped raise money for

10:03

the lawsuit that

10:06

the Utah Supreme Court is still debating.

10:08

So I'm really hopeful that our districts

10:11

at the state and at the federal levels

10:13

will get redrawn. But it's

10:15

one of the big challenges. The government has

10:17

done so much to try to silence our

10:19

voices to dilute the power of our votes.

10:21

So we don't have that many avenues to

10:23

make our voices heard. It is

10:25

really hard to

10:27

make a difference in Utah politics. In

10:35

some ways, because a Senate race

10:37

is statewide, rather than district by

10:39

district, which you can gerrymander, running

10:42

for senator might actually

10:44

be the most competitive race on

10:46

a Utah ballot. You know, while

10:48

there were a bunch of candidates

10:51

stepping up early

10:53

on to sort of run in the primaries

10:55

on the Republican side, no one seemed to

10:57

be stepping up to represent Democrats. And

10:59

if no one runs to advance climate

11:01

action, clean energy, or the right to

11:03

choice, that

11:06

is a guarantee that those initiatives won't win

11:08

out. So Caroline took

11:10

a leap. I

11:14

meet all of the qualifications to be a

11:16

senator in the US Constitution. And

11:19

I think so many times, women

11:21

wait until they're so overly qualified before

11:24

they apply for different jobs. So

11:26

I did that with the shooting gallery. I

11:28

waited a long time till I felt like

11:31

I was overly qualified. I had more

11:33

skills than I needed. And I think for me,

11:36

that was the right track with the shooting gallery

11:38

because you don't want to push it in the

11:40

mountains. But in this case, there

11:44

was a call to action. When

11:46

Senator Romney decided he wasn't going

11:49

to be running for

11:51

the seat again, he called for the next

11:53

generation of leaders to step up. And

11:55

I heard that call. And I think we

11:58

need more millennials. more

12:00

people from different backgrounds to run for

12:02

Congress. One of the conversations that stood

12:04

out to me last year that I had, I was

12:07

talking with one of our country's best climbers, Jonathan Seegrist.

12:10

And Jonathan is also a route developer.

12:12

It's a ton of work. He doesn't get paid to do

12:15

that. But it's

12:17

also an incredible resource. He

12:19

said one of the things that kind of

12:21

drives him crazy is he'll be at a

12:23

place that he's helped sort of develop and

12:25

create. And he'll hear somebody's enjoying the place,

12:27

say something like, oh, I wish the trail

12:29

was better, or why don't they do

12:32

something with that bolt, or why don't they

12:34

make this different? He has

12:36

a sort of rule where he says, that

12:39

someone is you. You know, when you say,

12:41

I wish someone would do something about that,

12:43

that that someone is actually you. At

12:46

what point in your activism,

12:48

as you slowly kind

12:50

of move towards this moment of running for Senate,

12:54

did you have a sort of aha moment

12:56

where you realize that this someone is

12:59

me? I

13:01

mean, I think at the root of it,

13:03

you know, it kind of starts with these

13:06

feelings of like depression or

13:08

anxiety or anger, or frustration,

13:12

you know, why can't it be this way?

13:15

Or why is it working this way? There

13:17

definitely been times where I

13:19

felt like completely overwhelmed by those feelings.

13:21

And I know for a lot of

13:23

other people in the world, in the

13:25

US, especially right now, that there's a

13:27

lot of frustration with how the government

13:29

how our society is with the big

13:31

changes in the world

13:34

after COVID. And there's

13:37

definitely been times that I've been really

13:39

angry to see different decisions

13:41

get made. And so while I

13:44

hold space, and like you have

13:46

to process those emotions, there's

13:48

nothing quite like diving in and trying

13:51

to take on this big leadership role

13:54

that helps to get past those. And, you

13:57

know, one of my favorite quotes is like the

13:59

Yvonne Chouinard that the

14:01

cure for depression is action.

14:04

And I feel that to my core every

14:07

morning, like I wake up with this greater

14:09

sense of purpose and there's this big

14:12

urgency and it's true.

14:14

It's like, if not you, then who?

14:17

Like we have a choice in this climate,

14:19

in this world we're living in. Do we

14:22

wanna be bystanders and critics

14:24

or do we wanna enter the ring?

14:27

And it's truly terrifying to

14:29

file your candidacy for any

14:31

office, but especially for United

14:34

States Senate. I'm living in

14:36

constant fear. It's

14:38

all consuming and it's gonna

14:41

totally take over my life and it's gonna

14:43

change the trajectory of my life. But again,

14:46

I just felt like I had this

14:48

opportunity to serve my state and my

14:50

country and to break a

14:53

trail for other folks to

14:55

do it too. And it's

14:57

never comfortable, it's a lot of

14:59

hard work, but it

15:01

is a great way to turn

15:03

something negative into something more positive

15:05

and productive. You

15:08

get to November, you're going to

15:10

be an undeniable underdog,

15:12

right? And that's something you're

15:14

actively leaning into in how

15:16

you're talking about this race.

15:19

The last time that Utah elected a

15:21

Democratic senator was in 1970, that was

15:23

kind of long before both

15:26

you and I were even born. How

15:28

do you win this? And I guess

15:31

in this situation, is there a difference between winning

15:34

and success in this case? Yes,

15:37

I am running to win

15:39

and my whole life, I've

15:42

been the underdog. I'm the third

15:45

out of four kids in my

15:47

immediate family and

15:49

I have three brothers and then I have

15:51

three older half siblings. So I'm

15:54

used to being the underdog and

15:56

I'm used to having, to being

15:58

like the smallest one in the family. I always

16:00

be in behind until I'm

16:02

not. And

16:06

I look forward to the opportunity

16:08

to prove people wrong about my

16:10

intelligence and my qualifications, my experience,

16:12

my knowledge of policy. I'm really

16:14

looking forward to the debate and

16:17

a chance to hold our

16:19

elected officials accountable and to hold the

16:22

GOP supermajority accountable. And

16:25

yes, I think that success

16:27

can look a lot of different ways. Absolutely.

16:32

I'm running to win. But if we don't run

16:34

a strong race this year, then

16:36

we miss developing that infrastructure for

16:39

2028. And

16:41

so I really see this as an investment in

16:43

Utah's future. And Utah is

16:45

kind of a sleeper swing state. We

16:48

are, it's a really interesting state and

16:51

the dynamics are shifting a lot right

16:53

now. So I don't

16:55

think we can turn our back on

16:57

Utah. And I know that

16:59

young people here especially are hungry

17:01

for change. They are looking

17:04

for new leaders to

17:06

rally behind, new ideas for

17:08

young people, especially the cost of

17:10

housing, the burdens

17:13

for families, the lack of

17:15

subsidies for childcare, and

17:18

just all of these things, gun violence, air

17:21

quality, the climate crisis, like all of

17:23

these issues, we need a strong leader

17:25

who will advocate for our future. And

17:28

right now, a lot of

17:30

the leaders on the other

17:32

side, they are very lifelong

17:34

entrenched politicians that aren't thinking

17:37

about our future. I

17:39

imagine that this is a moment

17:42

in your life where there are fewer

17:45

mountains, there's less time kind of

17:47

doing a lot of things that we both love.

17:51

What did the next few months look like for you? Strategically,

17:54

right now, we're working really hard

17:56

on fundraising and speaking and mobilizing

17:58

the democratic system. base in

18:01

Utah. And then in the

18:03

months as we get closer to the

18:05

election, we'll be doing a lot more

18:07

voter registration, rallies, meet and greets, and

18:09

more voter persuasion. So right now we

18:11

are working hard to travel around the

18:13

state, hit up as many of the

18:16

county conventions as we can. And my

18:18

schedule sometimes it makes me want to

18:20

cry because I've never like, it

18:22

is, there are way more things on my schedule

18:24

than I would ever feel comfortable with. But

18:27

when it's time to go,

18:29

you have to dig deep. Sometimes setting

18:31

these big goals brings out something

18:33

inside of us that we never knew we had.

18:36

It makes us do things that we never

18:38

thought were possible. And I think for me

18:40

the most beautiful part is the way how

18:43

people from not just all over the

18:45

country, but I get messages from people

18:47

all over the world who are cheering

18:49

me on and they want to see

18:51

me succeed. And so seeing

18:53

the way that community and family and

18:55

friends step up, it like makes me

18:57

want to cry sometimes because the

19:00

beauty of the human spirit, the way that

19:02

people have come out to rally for me,

19:04

like it makes me really emotional and it

19:06

keeps me going. It's like when you're in

19:08

a race and you're feeling really tired, but

19:10

there's a big group of people cheering for

19:12

you on the end of the climb and you

19:14

just get the wind back in your sails.

19:16

And it gives you that extra bit of energy

19:18

to push the top. We made

19:20

a film together, Follow Through, and it

19:23

detailed your effort to ski all

19:25

these lines in the Wasatch, in

19:27

this cult classic guidebook, The Shooting

19:29

Gallery. And while

19:31

you were doing that, you had your detractors, people

19:34

that made it a point

19:36

to make you feel like you did not belong

19:39

in the category of an elite athlete, even

19:41

though you were out there doing and

19:43

skiing all these really elite lines.

19:47

It went even to the point of harassment and

19:50

you've gone through that

19:53

in both your professional athletic

19:55

career and in your grassroots

19:57

activism work. You

20:00

know, like at this stage in your life, has that improved or

20:02

has it gotten worse even as you've gone

20:04

up to bigger venues? I'm

20:06

having a big battle against

20:08

people's preconceived notions and stereotypical

20:10

biases about what I'm capable

20:12

of based on my

20:15

stature and my gender and my

20:17

looks. It's hard if you're looking for

20:20

permission. You have to

20:22

kind of like give yourself your

20:24

own permission and constantly

20:27

meditate or manifest visualize

20:30

like what you really want

20:32

to do. Do you feel like in a

20:34

way some of those headwinds that you

20:36

faced and continue to face, has it

20:38

only intensified with this new

20:41

chapter as you enter into sort of a career

20:44

as in politics? There's

20:46

a lot of harassment. There's a lot of people who

20:49

think that they can say things behind

20:51

the facade of the keyboard that

20:53

they would never say to someone in real life. And

20:56

there's times that it does

20:58

get to me and I think

21:00

that's okay. I don't want to

21:02

toughen up or grow thicker skin

21:04

as a response. I don't want

21:06

to have these heavy calluses on

21:08

my skin. It's okay

21:11

sometimes to let it

21:13

get to you and

21:15

there are moments that it does. But

21:17

again, just being focused on the bigger

21:19

mission and knowing the weight that I

21:21

have to carry, it makes it

21:23

easier to keep pushing on. I'm

21:26

a middle aged dad. I love being outdoors.

21:28

What do I do besides voting, besides making

21:30

a small donation? As we move

21:32

forward, how do I not just tune out? How do

21:34

I not just like focus on taking

21:36

the next mountain bike ride or going to my kids'

21:38

track meet or whatever? How

21:41

do I stay in this? I'm not a superstar.

21:44

I'm a regular person. I hear a

21:46

lot of times, especially skiers, but a lot

21:48

of outdoor people like, I don't

21:51

want to get political. I don't want

21:53

to get political. I want to stay out of politics. I

21:57

think we all want to stay out of politics,

21:59

but we have to. realize that the

22:02

roads you drive on to get to the

22:04

trailhead, like how you, you know,

22:06

how the like the electricity gets to

22:08

your house, the trails that you go

22:11

to to run, the crag that you

22:13

are climbing at, that that is all

22:15

political. So even if you don't want

22:17

to or don't think that the

22:19

issues in your life are political, they are.

22:22

And it is a privilege to not

22:24

have politics affect you personally. Because for

22:26

a lot of people, especially for women

22:28

right now in this landscape, like just

22:31

being born into the

22:34

gender that you are is political.

22:36

It's become a political weapon. So

22:39

so it is a privilege to not have

22:41

to get political when your rights have never been

22:43

attacked. Sometimes you pick the line like

22:45

you see something, you see a picture and you're like,

22:47

I have to go after that line. And then other

22:49

times the line picks you and you

22:51

have to step up and serve. And there's just

22:54

these different parts of your life and phases and

22:56

chapters of your life. And so

22:58

sometimes you're called to service from

23:00

something that's outside of you. You

23:03

do everything you can in those moments

23:05

to step up, show up,

23:07

speak up, even when it's scary, even when

23:09

there's naysayers, even when there's like trolls and

23:11

harassment, like none of that stuff has gone

23:13

away. It's still going on. But

23:16

I just I know what I need to do

23:18

now better. And I don't

23:20

have the same kind of

23:22

like self questioning. I'm focused on my mission

23:24

and all that stuff is distraction and noise.

23:28

The end of the day, I want

23:30

to look myself in the mirror and

23:32

be really confident and happy with how I

23:35

showed up and what I did and look

23:37

at myself and know that I did everything

23:39

I could that I wanted to do with

23:41

my life. And that

23:43

gives me a lot of peace and solace.

23:46

And so at the end of the day, it's

23:48

like less about societal permission and more about

23:51

manifesting the version of my life that

23:53

I want for myself and achieving the

23:55

things that I need to do. After

24:05

the break, we talked TikTok with

24:07

Alex Harris. Turns out, it's

24:10

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you love your bike. my

26:01

dad brought me out to like, I mean, we

26:03

lived in the Chicago suburbs and so I was

26:05

grateful to have grown up near a little forest

26:07

preserve. He got me into Boy Scouts

26:09

and stuff, like spent a lot of time in the local

26:12

prairie and forest and going

26:15

on, you know, small camping trips. He was the

26:17

person that introduced me to it and I just

26:19

felt completely in love with it and completely in

26:21

love with adventure and running around and like

26:24

so many others, that's just become

26:27

my identity as an adult

26:30

and unsurprisingly, I now live in Colorado

26:33

because of that. So

26:40

this is Alex Harris. He's a TikTok

26:42

creator and impact producer who kind

26:44

of like kept following that childhood

26:46

passion. And in the

26:48

years after college, Alex hit the road living out

26:50

of his car, wandering around the

26:52

West and kind of like thinking about how to

26:54

have an impact on the issues he cared about.

26:57

You know, that was climate change,

26:59

conservation and environmental justice. And

27:02

like so many young people have

27:04

done and will continue to do, he

27:06

turned to the Internet and it worked.

27:09

Today's got six hundred and seventy six

27:11

thousand TikTok followers. There's

27:13

so much in Alex's stories I

27:15

can relate to personally, even

27:17

though I'm 20 years older and don't have a TikTok

27:19

account. Yeah, I mean, that's like a lot of followers.

27:22

I mean, I'm just kind of curious

27:24

how he how he got that many.

27:26

Yeah. Well, you know, it's funny. You

27:28

can you can actually see what happens right

27:30

in his feeds. He's on the road. He's

27:32

living out of his car, hiking and experimenting.

27:36

And he takes the two things he cares

27:38

about being outside and climate change and

27:40

he mashes them together. Alex,

27:45

I went I went way back in

27:48

your TikTok feed and you're in

27:50

the slot canyon. You're hiking and

27:52

you crack this joke. And I've heard that

27:54

if you shut an echo down, it tells you

27:56

what you're supposed to do next. Let's try

27:58

it out. Echo! Take

28:02

climate change more seriously. So

28:05

funny that you found, that's from so long ago. Yeah.

28:07

Oh my gosh. So much of

28:09

our careers are captured online

28:12

somewhere. I mean, some people just straight up do

28:14

it on LinkedIn. And I'm curious, like that going

28:17

back is I think the first post where

28:21

there's a pretty big response to that. In

28:24

your mind, is there a post where you're like, this

28:26

is crazy? Like where it all of a

28:28

sudden kind of goes a little bit

28:31

from being like, oh, this somehow reached a few

28:33

thousand people to being like, this

28:35

reached a lot of people. Yeah.

28:38

I mean, that one was definitely the

28:40

first crack. A friend of mine had

28:43

introduced me to the idea of going on TikTok and

28:45

like trying it out as a creator. I

28:47

posted every single day for about a month.

28:50

I was completely, I was in

28:52

that desert for a long time, like trying to

28:54

figure out how to make it work and just

28:56

reflecting on things and trying different video ideas every

28:58

day, some with new footage and some

29:00

with old footage of adventures and stuff like that. There

29:03

was one of a friend of mine and

29:05

I backpacking and I'd put like music over

29:07

that footage of us backpacking through Montana. And

29:10

I can't remember if that one came out before or

29:12

after the slot canyon one. Is it the

29:14

one where you're walking up to the lake? Yeah,

29:17

with my friend, Dave. There's Dave. No

29:22

way. Are

29:25

you kidding me? Yeah. They both like, I mean,

29:27

now they've both like take, they've

29:29

both taken off in their own way, but the slot

29:32

canyon one was the first one that blew

29:34

up and was related to climate change and

29:36

the environment and was a

29:38

goofy video that was just quick and off the

29:40

cuff and seemed like it'd be a humorous way

29:42

to get people talking about it. And

29:46

yeah, that's really where it all started. But initially

29:48

I was like, wow, oh my gosh, like I've

29:50

never had this many people interacting with anything

29:52

I've made. And I was kind of glad that it was just a

29:55

little joke because we were all just having a good time. So

30:03

at the end of the day, like how many

30:05

people actually end up watching these videos? Up

30:08

until the point where those two videos happen,

30:10

they're like maybe a

30:12

few hundred, a few thousand people watching

30:14

these posts. But the Echo one, it

30:17

hits 450,000. The

30:19

Backpacking one, it goes to 770,000. Damn.

30:24

TikTok is like other social media platforms,

30:26

but on steroids. And

30:31

what did it feel like that, like

30:33

to have that attention? I

30:35

mean, it was exciting. It didn't really feel like a

30:38

whole lot, to be honest. It

30:40

was exciting. It was kind of overwhelming. But at

30:43

the end of the day, when it initially

30:45

happened that time around, I think it was

30:47

a slightly smaller scale than one that came.

30:51

Like now it's grown a lot

30:53

more than what it initially happened. I think when it initially

30:55

happened, it was like the

30:58

viral moment that felt extremely

31:01

overwhelming to me was actually the

31:03

poem video about van life. This

31:06

is my office. That is my

31:08

throne. This hammock is my living room. The

31:10

forest is my home. The kitchen's set up

31:12

over there and that's my little light. Once

31:15

the sun has had its fun, I sleep in here at

31:17

night. My handcrafted wooden light.

31:19

That one went not that

31:22

long after, like two or three months

31:24

after, like completely stratosphere. It was very,

31:26

very, very overwhelming. A lot of creator

31:28

friends say it's like, and I

31:30

agree with them, like it's traumatic to go viral for

31:32

the first time, like truly viral because

31:35

you're nobody and suddenly this

31:37

massive amount of attention is on you. Explain

31:40

that to me. What

31:44

happened? Why would you

31:46

experience that as traumatic? I

31:49

think it can

31:51

happen different ways for different people. I

31:54

remember posting it, like making it off the cuff, posting

31:56

it, thinking it would do pretty well.

32:00

and then getting on a call with some friends, getting off the

32:02

call two hours later and it had over 800,000 views.

32:05

And then that continued to go

32:07

super, super viral. And now it has over 19.5 million

32:10

views. And I think somewhere around 16

32:13

or 17 of those was over the course of

32:16

two or three weeks. And

32:18

so suddenly there were all of these people

32:21

that were super involved

32:24

in both asking

32:27

a ton of different questions about the

32:29

lifestyle and how it all works. Like

32:31

looking into my stuff behind the scenes,

32:33

there were different talent scouts and management

32:35

agencies and folks like that and trying

32:38

to capitalize on it in some way.

32:40

And folks that I didn't, had

32:42

never interacted with before coming up with all

32:44

kinds of different versions of advice and like

32:46

what I should do now that this was

32:48

all happening. And then shortly

32:51

thereafter, the videos went back to performing

32:53

normally, which was like high, but not

32:55

like international volume high. And

32:57

that was a really weird fall

33:00

down because I mean,

33:04

there were a lot of times over that period where I just kind of

33:06

shut the phone off and like hung out in the

33:08

woods because it was just so overwhelming and I never

33:10

asked for that. And so for like

33:12

me and a lot of creators, it feels very much

33:15

the first time that a video goes viral, it

33:17

feels like you're famous and

33:19

you're nobody. And the second time it's like you're famous,

33:22

you're nobody. And it's just a back and forth of

33:24

that over and over and over again. And at the

33:26

end of the day, what happened was a lot of

33:28

people saw something that I

33:30

made and liked it for about 30 seconds

33:33

and found some inspiration from it. And that's

33:35

really great. I'm glad that that happened. But

33:37

at the time, it felt like

33:39

one of the most important things

33:42

ever. And sure, there were long-term implications with like

33:44

growing an audience and stuff like that from it,

33:46

but the

33:48

emotional, like we're not

33:50

meant to interact with that many people at one time.

33:52

And at the end of the day, you're really

33:55

not, like you're really not. It

33:57

just feels like you are and that's what... Everyone

34:00

is saying is happening. And so

34:02

that roller coaster that comes along with that

34:05

takes a second to sort out for sure

34:13

So these videos are fun people are interested

34:15

in what's like to live on the road

34:18

But I'm trying to figure out a way to say

34:20

this nicely like they're cute, but like

34:22

they're not really like impactful Yeah,

34:25

so Alex is is building his audience. He's figuring out

34:28

his voice He

34:30

gets a sense that this is a

34:32

sort of bizarre sort of fame that

34:34

he's experiencing That

34:36

a lot of people see him as some sort of

34:38

product An influencer so

34:40

to speak that this is a

34:42

strange cyclical boom bust of chasing

34:44

numbers and algorithms But he's

34:47

also gone to school for environmental studies and he starts to

34:49

think can I make this platform? work

34:51

for me rather than me working

34:53

for it and Can I can

34:55

I make it help out in the bigger society about

34:58

the things I care about? So yeah,

35:00

like essentially he gets curious of like how far he

35:02

can take this right

35:04

and about then there's a

35:06

bunch of environmental groups working in Alaska and

35:09

They're getting really concerned about the willow

35:11

project It's this major oil drilling project

35:13

on the north slope of Alaska in

35:15

the National Petroleum Reserve Which

35:18

despite its name is actually this incredibly

35:20

intact ecosystem That

35:23

has all these incredibly interconnected

35:25

waterways Additionally by drawing

35:28

750 million barrels of

35:30

oil out we'd also put an estimated

35:34

287 million tons of carbon into the

35:36

atmosphere through this project It

35:38

gets approved by the Trump administration in the

35:40

final days before the 2020 election environmental

35:44

groups like protect the Arctic and

35:46

indigenous partners like Native Movement and

35:48

the gwich'in steering committee Decided

35:50

to launch on all-out plea to Biden

35:52

to block the project Yeah, like

35:54

didn't Biden make a campaign promise to like

35:57

ban all new drilling leases on federal lands?

36:00

He did, and it was part of

36:02

his attempt to bring in the youth

36:04

vote. So there's reason to

36:06

be hopeful that if President Biden

36:08

hears from enough people, like hundreds

36:11

of thousands of people, maybe millions of people, that

36:14

if the activists and the broader community

36:16

can engage on a broad level with

36:18

a big portion of America, the

36:21

decision to drill could be reversed. They

36:24

need to get a ton of people to engage, and

36:27

fortunately, there's an app for that.

36:33

Alex, how did you first hear about Willow?

36:35

You get involved with it, it takes off. Like

36:37

walk me through that whole process. It

36:40

felt like something that not only

36:42

was I personally passionate about, but that

36:44

would also resonate extremely well from

36:47

a virality perspective. And

36:49

so I'd wanted to talk about Willow for a

36:51

long time, and so had so many other people.

36:54

It just so happens that there weren't many

36:57

opportunities to get people tangibly involved just because

36:59

of the way the process played out up

37:03

until that moment where the

37:05

administration tentatively suggested they would approve

37:07

it. And then

37:09

there was about a month of

37:11

time before that tentative approval and rock

37:14

solid were doing like go no

37:16

go moment shortly thereafter, where

37:18

we could talk to the

37:20

White House directly and inform

37:23

them whether or not we wanted them to

37:25

do that. Protect the Arctic

37:27

made a great website where people could

37:29

send letters directly to the White House and

37:31

would take care of that for people. And

37:34

so once again, like

37:36

the entire Arctic Coalition started encouraging

37:38

people to send letters

37:41

to the White House and say, hey, if you care about this,

37:45

this is your world too, like go for it. If you care

37:47

about the people that live up there, back them up. And

37:50

so it did start to take off suddenly

37:53

after about three weeks to a month of

37:55

posting every single day and talking about it

37:57

and leading people to send in letters getting

38:00

involved and everybody going so hard

38:02

behind the scenes to fill each

38:04

other in on how things were

38:06

going in different arenas. The

38:09

media showed up and started inquiring

38:11

me, several

38:14

other creators like Elise Shashi,

38:16

Elena Wood, Kwanzaa Chasing

38:18

Horse, did a CNN opinion piece on

38:21

it. More and more voices

38:23

started getting reached out to by these news

38:25

outlets. And

38:27

for yeah, about like a week and a half, there was the

38:30

media cycle of NPR, New York Times,

38:33

CNN, BBC. Major

38:36

oil and gas drilling project called the

38:38

Willow Project in the northeast corner of

38:40

Alaska could be one step closer to

38:42

approval by the Biden administration despite fierce

38:45

opposition from environmental groups. The

38:47

source confirms to ABC News that the

38:49

Biden administration will approve an $8 billion

38:52

dollar plan for new drilling on Alaska's

38:54

North Slope. The company behind the

38:56

Willow Project, Konoka Phillips, says it

38:58

will create local investment and thousands

39:01

of jobs. Opponents argue

39:03

it should be halted over its

39:05

climate and wildlife impacts. Located on

39:07

Alaska's remote North Slope, it is

39:09

the largest oil project in the

39:11

region for decades and it is

39:13

expected to produce up to 180,000

39:15

barrels of oil a day.

39:18

Talk to, tell me about the

39:21

representative Jamal Bowman moment where, oh,

39:23

the best. Tell me about that. He's

39:26

a congressman from New York state,

39:28

right? Yeah, yeah, yeah. He's a

39:30

New York state House of Representatives

39:32

member, amazing person. And

39:35

he was the only, to my

39:37

knowledge, the

39:40

one person that stood vocally

39:43

alongside the movements

39:46

on social media

39:48

before decision. There were a lot

39:51

of people that criticized it after decision

39:53

and there were certainly people that signed

39:56

on to letters like encouraging it

39:58

be taken down. like opposing

40:00

Willow. There were like other representatives that did

40:03

that, but Jamal Bowman was the only person

40:05

to side with the movement and like identify

40:07

the young people involved in the movement in

40:09

a speech that he delivered on the House

40:11

floor ahead of the decision. ...communicate with Mr.

40:14

Biden to stop the

40:16

Willow project. We

40:19

are living in a climate

40:21

catastrophe. Mr. President,

40:23

it was young people that organized

40:26

across this country to help you

40:28

get into office. Their

40:30

number one issue is climate

40:33

change. Mr. President, it

40:35

was young people... And then when we went

40:37

to DC, he was one of three representatives

40:40

that wound up not

40:42

only meeting with us, but also like co-leading a

40:45

letter to the Secretary of the Interior

40:47

explaining that they

40:49

and alongside these millions

40:52

of people don't think that this is

40:55

a good idea and don't think behavior like this is a good

40:57

idea. So Jamal Bowman was definitely

40:59

a champion of the movement in a

41:01

really great way. And one of

41:03

the video that I made about his speech wound

41:05

up getting I think over... It was a top

41:07

performing video of the campaign. It got over five

41:10

and a half million views. And

41:12

so a lot of people came to see him as

41:14

a leader too, which was great because he really... I

41:17

mean, he didn't even embrace it. Like he set that

41:19

precedent for himself because that's the way that he acts.

41:22

And so a lot of people just realized

41:24

that that's the kind of person that he is. And it

41:26

was really, really validating and encouraging to see

41:28

that narrative be true

41:31

in person. So yeah,

41:34

I love Jamal Bowman. Great guy. Yeah, it seemed

41:36

like a cool moment to just have that where

41:38

it was like, oh, this work... It's

41:41

just such a moment where there aren't a

41:43

lot of big ticket items where all

41:45

of a sudden people are talking about the same

41:48

things. And that's a moment from

41:50

the world of TikTok where all

41:54

of a sudden TikTok really led that charge,

41:56

right? And the collection of people that you

41:58

were working with and all of a sudden... breaks out

42:00

and all the other people, all the, you

42:02

know, what would it be called mainstream media or

42:05

paying attention representatives are or something. And it's just,

42:07

you know, it's a really cool moment. It's

42:09

a neat thing when that happens. It really

42:12

was super broad in general. And I think

42:14

that's what made it special.

42:17

We could prove that of the top 10

42:20

trending hashtags on TikTok

42:22

for like a week, like a whole platform, platform wide,

42:25

two of them were Willow related. It

42:28

was like stop Willow and stop the Willow project. And

42:31

we're both in the top 10. And one

42:33

of those, I can't remember which, but one

42:35

of them was third under two

42:37

other hashtags related to the Selena Gomez and

42:39

Hailey Bieber debate that was going on like

42:42

three months ago while Willow was happening, which

42:44

is just like the A-list

42:46

celebrity gossip of the time. So it was

42:48

like celebrity gossip, Willow project,

42:50

like that's, they're on par.

42:53

So like to be able to go into meetings and

42:55

say like, hey, you know, remember when you thought environmental

42:59

values and like protecting the world we all

43:01

live in was just an

43:04

environmentalist thing? It's

43:06

not at all. And

43:09

there's redundant proof in like the top

43:11

hashtags of these platforms that that's the

43:13

case. So

43:15

it's probably worth taking seriously. Yeah.

43:18

And it was, it's just, it's really cool to

43:20

see. And again, that's something that like can only

43:22

happen when so many people take up arms about

43:24

it and feel compelled to talk about it. And

43:27

really do believe that. So super

43:29

awesome. Really, really cool moment for sure. So

43:42

despite an overwhelming amount of

43:44

input from voters, particularly young

43:47

voters driven by the

43:49

TikTok campaign, the Biden

43:51

administration, they approved the Willow project, which

43:53

I think it's

43:56

worth giving some context to. The Arctic Slope

43:58

Regional Corporation, which is one of. 13

44:01

native corporations in Alaska was

44:03

for the project, citing its

44:05

economic impact that

44:08

it would have for the

44:10

local indigenous communities. Both Democratic

44:12

and Republican lawmakers in Alaska

44:14

were for it and

44:16

two of the native communities that

44:19

would be impacted opposed it initially

44:21

but have since withdrawn the opposition.

44:25

Look, certainly there are members of

44:28

these indigenous communities that are opposed

44:30

to drilling but all

44:33

communities contain differing opinions on topics like

44:35

this. And the Biden

44:37

administration was also trying to do a better

44:39

job of working and listening to tribes and

44:41

how federal land is used in

44:44

that regard. And that's been a

44:46

priority for Secretary of Interior Deb Holland, who

44:48

is the first Native American to hold that

44:50

role. Sometimes that aligns

44:53

perfectly with conservation interests and sometimes

44:55

it may not. So despite all

44:58

the input and the environmental impact

45:00

statement and concerns about the ecosystem

45:02

and carbon and an

45:04

absolute outpouring of comments from young

45:06

people, the administration approved the project citing

45:09

the fact that these leases had already

45:11

been given out by the previous administration

45:14

and construction of the Willow project has

45:16

already begun even with pending lawsuits against

45:18

the government. Obviously it

45:20

still hurts my heart a ton that the

45:22

project is continuing but there

45:25

were, I mean, it always is

45:27

and that especially was an extremely emotional time

45:29

of like really, really high highs and like

45:31

hit a million people writing in in

45:33

less than a month and low

45:35

lows when it was approved

45:37

anyway and more high highs and

45:39

meetings were taken and some low lows when they didn't

45:42

go as well as they could have, some high highs

45:44

when they did go really well and it was just

45:46

a total roller coaster. A lot of what you

45:49

do create and a little window

45:51

that the world gets into your

45:53

life in the last few years, it looks fun.

45:55

Like it's just, it's like you're having a good

45:57

time and it or you make it look like

46:00

that way at least, right? The trips

46:02

you're taking, the places you're going, they're incredible.

46:05

And I think what

46:08

also makes you really interesting is that we can

46:10

cure your

46:12

honest frustration or like even

46:14

anger when

46:16

you addressed President Biden after the

46:19

willows approval, right? And you can

46:21

see that you're sort of torn. And I'm curious, you

46:23

know, I'm curious, like, seems there

46:25

would be a side of you that would just

46:27

be happier if you didn't

46:29

feel this responsibility because plenty of people don't.

46:35

There is that conflict of wanting to run

46:37

around and like having real responsibilities back home.

46:39

And I feel like, you know,

46:41

as a creator, you don't

46:44

get to can't show a lot of parts

46:46

of your life. Like there are, I mean,

46:48

over the past three years, a lot has

46:51

definitely happened in my personal life that I didn't

46:54

talk about on screen, like between

46:57

passing away of people

46:59

that are close to me or like illnesses

47:01

or just, you know, difficult situations popping up,

47:03

like relationship starts, relationship

47:05

ends, all sorts of those personal things

47:07

and the like responsibilities that come alongside

47:10

them. And usually

47:12

in those moments, I'll like take a step

47:14

back from creating, understanding that like,

47:17

if a video is good, it'll take off. If

47:20

it's bad, it won't take off. Over

47:23

the past three years, I've realized like you

47:25

can step back and step back in and

47:27

maybe stepping back in, it'll take like a

47:30

week or two for things to pick back up

47:32

and get going again, but eventually everything will be

47:35

kind of as it was as long

47:37

as the content is good. And so that's provided

47:39

clarity and the ability to step back. And

47:42

yeah, certainly, like, you know,

47:45

if you don't care about things, you'll be

47:47

less frustrated. But I think that like frustration

47:49

is evidence

47:51

of heart and passion and

47:53

conviction. And that's, like

47:56

you said, a really beautiful thing. Very

47:58

bothered. Like, oh, I I think sometimes

48:00

like older generations, even

48:03

though they're using them, using TikTok,

48:05

I think sometimes there's this tendency

48:07

to discount it as

48:09

like lightweight or maybe a little

48:11

random. I

48:13

think it's, I think cause part of it's just

48:15

like, oh, there's just these kids dancing on TikTok,

48:17

you know, it's how it started, but everyone forgets

48:19

that like Instagram just started with people taking photos

48:22

of what they ate for breakfast, which was the

48:24

most, you know, which is like way less cool

48:26

than kids dancing. You know, at least there's like,

48:29

there's something happening on your screen versus

48:31

like, here's a photo of my huevos

48:33

rancheros or whatever, you know? Yeah.

48:37

So I think that there is this side where

48:39

sometimes TikTok gets, and

48:42

really your generation, I feel like

48:45

gets considered just to be

48:47

like a little bit random or kind

48:49

of like, what are they doing? And part of

48:51

it's, I just, that's what every generation I think

48:53

does. But, you know, I've

48:56

seen with you that you enter into

48:58

this with great intention. Your vision for

49:00

what you're doing in your career is

49:02

to create really like a

49:04

global community that's focused on

49:07

not just getting people to watch, but to

49:09

take action. Do you see that

49:12

purpose and intention in

49:14

your cohorts and the people you're surrounded with

49:16

in your age? Because yeah,

49:19

I just think that, I

49:21

think sometimes we miss it as an older generation. If

49:24

you look at the inheritance, like generation after

49:26

generation, we grew up

49:29

inheriting not much wealth. And

49:34

so we don't have the

49:36

capital to do things traditionally.

49:40

Like we don't, we can't buy houses.

49:42

We can't start companies that

49:44

are like immediately, like have a ton

49:46

of capital to work with. We

49:49

can't just pick

49:51

and choose what to do with the

49:53

finances that we like have

49:57

at our disposal as a generation. generation

50:00

builds, but

50:02

it is like compared historically

50:05

way harder and way less for

50:07

our generation than in any generation

50:09

previously. And so we have

50:11

social capital, and that's the thing that we

50:13

understand, and that's the thing that we know

50:16

how to build

50:18

and trade and use is

50:21

just our collective bond. And

50:24

as a generation that's

50:26

now already witnessed several

50:28

wars and economic crashes growing up,

50:30

trying to get good grades in

50:32

school while our families were fighting.

50:35

Over these things, we didn't understand as kids.

50:38

And so with that all

50:41

in our minds, we have this very

50:43

base level, like, okay, there's a lot

50:45

to be fixed here. Most creators are

50:47

talking about more and more, what

50:49

can I do with my platform in the ways that

50:51

people in the past would say, what can I do

50:53

with my investment? What can I do with my money?

50:56

What can I do with the resources that I

50:58

have available where we don't have that

51:00

many resources, so let's work

51:02

with what we've got and what we've got

51:05

as relationships. And so we do think

51:07

about it super strategically. I'd

51:09

say I'm a mid-level creator, top-level

51:11

creators with really massive audiences. You

51:13

can't just accidentally do that. You

51:15

can accidentally start doing that, but

51:18

you can't accidentally continue doing

51:21

that and continue to engage

51:23

people on a

51:25

regular basis at a high

51:27

level in a way that encourages

51:30

them to move toward a better version of

51:32

themselves. Or even simpler than

51:34

that, just to have a space to

51:36

escape to and relax in this crazy

51:38

world of ours. Creators are very,

51:40

very intentional about it. And it is an

51:43

honor to be part of

51:45

a community that's so inclusive and so cooperative.

51:47

I think it looks pretty competitive from the

51:49

outside, but more and more

51:51

every day, it's become an

51:53

incredibly cooperative and supportive industry

51:55

because everyone gets it. Everyone knows what it's like

51:57

to go through all those things and wants to make it happen.

52:00

make it easier for whoever's coming next. There's

52:02

a line you've used. You said, you know, I don't

52:04

want to build an audience. I want to outfit one.

52:07

And how do you do that? Like

52:10

what's the Alex Harris four points or how

52:12

many points it is for

52:14

empowering others? So

52:17

one presenting examples of opportunities with

52:19

potential for impact to assuring resources,

52:22

three is handing over ownership and letting go

52:24

of ownership. Um, so

52:26

giving ownership to audiences through.

52:29

Encouragement and celebration when

52:32

someone does something amazing.

52:35

Uh, for example, with

52:37

the Arctic Refuge

52:39

campaign, there was a, uh,

52:41

an eight year old in West

52:43

Virginia and he all

52:45

save his name for his privacy, but an

52:48

eight year old in West Virginia commented

52:51

on a live stream saying that he

52:53

wrote a letter and

52:57

then asked his teacher if they

53:00

could make writing letters, extra credit for the class

53:03

and that teacher did. And then that teacher talked about it

53:05

in the teacher's lounge. And then all

53:07

the other teachers made it extra credit. And

53:10

so that eight year old boy single

53:13

handedly got over 450 students and

53:17

probably their families and teachers to send in

53:19

a letter, which is something that I could

53:21

never do. You could never do. None

53:24

of the listeners could do unless they

53:26

happen to be a student at his

53:28

school. Like that's like a very, very

53:30

specific. Communicator for that, that community,

53:32

you know, like if we went in there and we're like,

53:34

Hey, you guys should do this. They'd be like, all right,

53:37

we'll think about it. Get

53:39

off our property. That's

53:42

such a great example of that. You

53:44

know, like we're like, yeah, that that's

53:46

a, that's a unique situation. Yeah. And

53:48

so like continuing to not show

53:51

people exactly what to say or exactly how

53:53

to do it, but just say like, you

53:56

know, how to talk to your community. Here's

53:58

everything I know and everything. I have, go

54:02

for it. You'll do great.

54:04

And better than I ever could for the

54:06

people that you care about, whether that's

54:08

like online or offline, giving ownership

54:11

and encouraging them is huge.

54:27

Thank you Caroline and Alex for sharing your stories.

54:29

You can find more info in our show notes

54:31

about what these two are up to. Our

54:33

stories come from friends, from friends of friends, and from

54:36

you, our community. If you have a compelling idea for

54:38

a guest or story lead, please give us a shout.

54:40

You can use the submission form on our website, dirtbagdiary.com.

54:43

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