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And now let's get back to this week's

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episode of the Doctors Pharmacy. Are

3:07

you ready to prioritize wellness? Maybe you

3:09

want to make more informed choices on

3:11

the latest health trends or simply understand

3:13

the science. I'm Dr. Mark Hyman.

3:15

I'm a wellness expert and I want to welcome

3:18

you to my podcast, Health Hacks. In

3:20

every episode, I'll provide guidance on how

3:22

to live a longer, healthier life, helping

3:25

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3:27

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3:29

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3:31

and insights to make informed decisions. Health

3:34

Hacks is available in audio and video, so

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enjoy your podcasts. Join me every Tuesday for

3:41

a new episode. Just search for Health Hacks,

3:43

where my goal is to empower you to

3:45

live well. Now,

3:47

before we jump into today's episode, I'd like to

3:49

note that while I wish I could help everyone

3:52

by my personal practice, there's simply not enough time

3:54

for me to do this at scale. And that's

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why I've been busy building several passion projects to

3:58

help you better understand the world. That's

18:00

a gallbladder and pancreas problem that

18:02

requires medical intervention. And

18:04

we said, well, no, we're not talking about cystic

18:07

fibrosis and these kinds of very severe issues.

18:09

We're talking about chronic insufficiency. And actually, we

18:11

did a study and published it because

18:13

I asked the question, how much stomach acid

18:16

would you have to secrete to acidify one

18:18

steak dinner? Because steak,

18:20

high in protein, is a very good buffer

18:24

of pH because of the amino

18:26

acids, which are buffering. You have

18:28

to really acidify a protein-rich

18:31

meal to get it to be

18:33

acid when it goes in the duodenum. And

18:36

so I asked the question, how much acid

18:38

we did a calculation of how much would

18:40

have to be secreted? And then we did

18:42

the test. And Dr. Jones remembers this, I'm

18:44

sure. We gave the

18:46

people the little telemetry device where it could

18:48

measure gastric pH all the distance of the

18:51

gut. And we studied

18:53

a person's GI, and this was with a

18:55

great smoky, diagnostic lab. So this was back

18:57

in the 80s. And

19:00

then we used the telemetry device, and

19:02

then we calculated amount of acid. And

19:04

what we found is that you could

19:06

have chronic pancreatic insufficiency, which then, if

19:08

you acidified with betaine hydrochloride and you

19:10

gave pancreatic enzymes, you could then relieve

19:12

some of these digestive problems and make

19:14

that person more compatible. Now,

19:16

we were very, very heavily criticized. Now what

19:18

do we hear on radio and TV ads?

19:22

It's all about exocrine pancreatic

19:24

insufficiency. Now exocrine

19:28

EPI, right? So

19:30

everybody now should ask their fellow questionnaire

19:32

as to whether they have EPI. Well,

19:35

we've been talking about this for since the

19:37

1980s. I mean, it's true.

19:40

I mean, you saw stuff coming decades

19:42

before anybody else saw it. And

19:45

your associative mind just looks at the

19:47

patterns and the data across multiple disciplines

19:49

and sees these relationships that no one

19:51

else is seeing and no one's talking

19:53

about. You know, you're talking about the

19:56

microbiome being connected to everything now, what's

19:58

connected to metabolic health, to psychiatric health.

20:00

pediatric health, immune health,

20:02

pretty much everything you can think

20:04

of, cancer, heart disease, diabetes, obesity,

20:07

and now it's mainstream. And now one

20:09

of the hallmarks of aging is

20:12

the degradation of the microbiome as a

20:14

factor that happens as we age. So,

20:17

let's take that a step farther because what

20:19

happens in this digestive process, I stopped

20:22

at the second arm, that's the replace

20:24

arm. The next third arm is re-inoculate,

20:28

which is to give the pre-in probiotics to

20:30

restore the healthy bacteria. But we

20:32

know that there is another part of this system

20:34

that is very important, which is the liver. And

20:37

what does the liver do? The liver secretes bile.

20:41

And where does bile come from? Bile comes

20:43

from cholesterol that gets converted by a

20:45

series of enzymatic steps in

20:47

the liver that requires vitamin C, by the

20:50

way, and copper in terms

20:52

of that enzyme. And then it

20:54

produces this family of these bile salts.

20:57

Now, I always thought in my early

20:59

years, these emulsified fats. So they help

21:01

to digest and absorb fats. But

21:03

now we know these are signaling molecules. These

21:06

bile salts play very important

21:08

roles in stimulating receptor sites

21:10

on the surface of our

21:12

GI tract to release intraendocrine

21:14

hormones like GLP1 and to

21:16

regulate function far beyond just

21:18

emulsifying fats. And now there are

21:20

new drugs for the treatment of NASH that

21:22

are really bile acid miminic drugs

21:25

that are affecting the receptor sites

21:28

that bile acids influence. With a

21:30

healthy digestive system, you're doing that

21:32

naturally. It's not asking for a

21:35

drug. It's asking to

21:37

stimulate those receptors to signal correctly.

21:39

So gastrointestinal health

21:42

is much more than just what

21:44

you take in and what you

21:46

poop out. It's all the business

21:49

that occurs by these signaling molecules

21:51

from a healthy digestive system that

21:53

are intimately communicating with your microbiome,

21:55

which then, that's the third

21:57

R, re-inoculation. Then the fourth R is

21:59

to re-enoculation. repair because you have these

22:01

holy mucosa membranes, you want

22:03

to repair them. So you have arginine,

22:05

you've got pantothenic acid, you've got the

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27:05

and the fifth R we added was restore,

27:08

which is dealing with our stress

27:10

response. And that model,

27:12

Jeff, which is a simple

27:14

method with very

27:16

clear steps that can be applied generally

27:20

and effectively is something that just has

27:22

not been taught in any medical curriculum.

27:24

My daughter is a medical school now.

27:26

I'm like, you learn about this or

27:28

that in microbiome? No, nothing. And it's

27:30

just astounding to me because it's such

27:32

a fundamental part of healing people.

27:34

As you saw through the case presentations that I did,

27:36

it's really often the place that I start, which is

27:38

fix the gut and then everything else sort of tends

27:40

to get better. And if it doesn't, then you go

27:42

to the next step. And I think

27:44

the insight and

27:46

the wisdom around bringing

27:49

the ancient sort of knowledge from

27:51

1901 back into current

27:53

medicine and taking the

27:56

kind of clinical experience we've all

27:58

had with repair. the gut

28:00

and seeing that create profound impact on

28:02

patients' health is a real revolution. And

28:05

what's interesting to me is there's all this great research going

28:07

on in the microbiome and we're learning so much more, but

28:10

still the application of that has not

28:13

been really well formulated by traditional medicine,

28:15

even though it's now recognized. And I

28:17

think the functional medicine principle of gut

28:19

restoration is so key and it's so

28:22

simple. And it's these simple steps of

28:24

remove, replace, you know,

28:26

re-inoculate, repair, restore. But it's

28:28

something we teach in the Institute for

28:30

Functional Medicine. It's not that hard to apply. And

28:33

it's something that actually the individual can apply out

28:35

there listening, even without seeing a doctor, by just

28:37

following the basic simple principles. So it's

28:39

such an incredible contribution that you've made. I

28:42

don't think most people know that,

28:44

you know, if it wasn't for Jeff Blann, we wouldn't

28:46

be talking about this stuff. Oh no, we

28:48

would, Mark. I don't think so, Jeff. No, we would. I

28:50

think I was just a compiler of lots of... But let

28:52

me give you... You're going to be modest, but I don't

28:55

think... I think you're FOS

28:57

on this one. And

29:00

I think that you saw this and you taught it without

29:03

even completely understanding it. I was the only guy willing

29:05

to travel six million miles. So

29:08

let me give you... You've talked a lot of shit, that's

29:11

right. Yeah, that's right. Let me give

29:13

you a quick example of how this is,

29:15

to me, just how enlightenment

29:17

occurs. So I'm invited to

29:19

the University of Copenhagen Medical Center to

29:21

give a presentation on this very topic

29:23

to their whole staff, the

29:26

interns, residents, and senior staff,

29:28

and nursing staff. And

29:31

for me, this is a big deal, right? Because

29:33

this is a center of excellence and really

29:35

high quality medicine there. And

29:39

so I was invited actually by the

29:43

lead nurse, who

29:45

is the surgical nurse to the head of the

29:47

department, who was reputed to

29:49

be the top gastrointestinal surgeon

29:52

in Denmark at the time. So it was

29:55

a big deal. So I give the first part of

29:57

my talk. It's all the big

29:59

old... a theater type surgical

30:01

presentation and then we have a

30:04

break and we go into the foyer. And

30:07

so the woman who's invited me

30:09

wants to introduce me to her

30:11

boss. And so

30:13

I go over there and she's

30:16

very polite, introduces me to him and he's

30:18

courteous and says, oh, nice to have you

30:20

here. And that was a very interesting presentation

30:22

you gave. That was half the lecture. And

30:26

I said thank you. And he said, but you know, of course,

30:29

everything you said is experimental. There's

30:31

no proof of this. And I

30:33

said, well, I know this

30:35

is early on. We're collecting information from a

30:37

variety of sources and that is true. But

30:41

we've seen many people that have employed this

30:43

concept in their practice and they're having success

30:45

with their patients. Well, I'm sure that's true

30:48

anecdotally, but you have to look at all

30:50

safety and all sorts of other variations and

30:52

what are typical and atypical. This

30:54

has years more studies to be done. So

30:57

I'm listening and being polite and he's kind

31:00

of blowing me off basically. And

31:03

so then the woman who's

31:05

the nurse is standing there, his

31:07

nurse, and she says, so doctor, she said,

31:10

well, I can understand your reluctance, but I

31:13

need to tell you something. Remember

31:17

my doctor, my

31:19

daughter, who you

31:21

treated for Crohn's disease unsuccessfully?

31:29

And do you remember that she

31:31

had been your patient and you had done everything

31:33

you could, got the best of the medicine here,

31:37

and yet she was so seriously

31:39

affected she could not leave the house.

31:41

She was a gothorac. She could not

31:43

go outside and her life, she was

31:45

short to stature for her age. She

31:47

hadn't gone through mincey's and

31:49

she was 15 and

31:52

she had all these problems. And I

31:55

heard this tape from this gentleman,

31:58

Jeff Bland, and he talked to me. and

34:00

estrogen, all of those have to be eliminated

34:02

from the body and because

34:04

they're fatty substances they

34:06

don't, they want to stick

34:09

around on our body. They want to stay

34:11

in the body. So the body has to convert

34:13

them into a form that it can get rid

34:15

of them generally by the urine or the feces.

34:17

So it has to make them from a fatty

34:20

substance into a more of a water soluble substance.

34:22

So that is a process built into our physiology.

34:24

It's genetically conserved

34:27

over all animals and

34:30

it's called detoxification or metabolic

34:33

conversion. So it's pooping, peeing

34:35

and sweating. That's right, get

34:38

rid of those things, that's right. And

34:41

so the interesting

34:44

feature of this process is

34:46

the principal organ, not the only organ but

34:48

a principal organ where this occurs is in

34:50

the liver. So the liver is

34:52

a very important organ for taking these things

34:54

and making them into something else so they

34:56

can be eliminated. Now we

34:59

would just assume that everybody's livers are

35:01

able to do this just fine. But

35:04

again having been

35:06

introduced to one of David Jones medical

35:08

school faculty from the University of California

35:10

Davis who had looked at

35:13

what happens with people that have

35:15

alcoholic delirium tremens, what

35:17

happens to many of those individuals is they

35:19

lose their detoxifying ability because of hepatocellular injury

35:22

and they then

35:24

lose their detoxifying ability, they become

35:26

endotoxic and it produces

35:28

hallucination in psychosis. Similarly for

35:31

hepatic encephalitis. Hepatic encephalitis

35:33

should really be called gastrointestinal hepatic

35:35

encephalitis where the gut is producing

35:37

toxins, the liver is impaired so

35:39

it can't detoxify them and that

35:41

goes to the brain and produces

35:43

a toxic relationship. They

35:45

become hallucinating. Can you stop

35:47

for a second? I just want to translate.

35:50

So for those

35:52

listening, you know what Dr. Blann is talking

35:54

about is something we know really well in

35:56

medicine. If someone comes in who's an alcoholic

35:58

and has liver failure, But

38:00

actually we found that that was not true

38:03

because there are actually studies that have been

38:05

done showing that people who take OTC meds

38:07

that the first past distribution of those

38:09

meds in metabolism is dependent on whether

38:11

they had grapefruit juice or they were

38:13

to have had sauerkraut juice.

38:15

That's a big one that's been studied.

38:18

And so these concepts that

38:20

diet can influence the ability

38:22

to detoxify drugs means

38:25

you can also detoxify other things native

38:28

to the body. Our body

38:30

doesn't have one pathway for drugs and

38:32

one pathway for natural stuff. It's the

38:34

same thing that is used, same mechanism.

38:38

So we started looking then at

38:40

this whole array, this panel portfolio

38:42

of foods that are rich in

38:44

these nutrients that enhance the function of

38:46

this so-called phase one detoxification and then

38:49

phase two because they're coupled together so

38:51

we can get these things out of

38:53

the body properly. And we

38:55

started measuring using caffeine clearance and benzylate

38:57

conjugation, certain assessment tools in people to

39:00

see if you could really do that.

39:02

And Andy Brawley and I... I love

39:04

that test. It disappeared though. I

39:07

know it's unfortunate it did because Andy Brawley

39:09

and I actually did...this is at Metametrics

39:11

way back when, did thousands of

39:13

patients looking at the data and

39:16

showing...we published a paper in the

39:18

Journal of Applied Nutrition showing that

39:20

we could determine a person's capability

39:22

of detoxifying based upon these surrogate

39:24

tests. And so that

39:27

then ultimately gave rise to

39:29

us putting that together into a clinical program

39:31

which we call metabolic detoxification. So

39:34

there is a dietary intervention program

39:36

that would improve or support the

39:39

detoxifying abilities of people who are impaired in

39:41

their abilities to get rid of these molecules

39:43

and would build them up in their body

39:45

and have side effects. Yeah, I mean it's

39:47

so important because not only are we dealing with our own metabolic

39:49

toxins we have to deal with, but we're really

39:51

dealing with a huge load of environmental

39:54

toxins that are ever more present. Probably

39:56

over 100,000 new to nature molecules since

39:58

the last turn of the last century. Now

40:00

we're discovering microplastic and nanoplastics in our arteries

40:02

that lead to the progression of heart attacks

40:04

and strokes. And so we really have to

40:07

have some method for understanding detoxification. It's another

40:09

one of those things we don't learn about

40:11

in medical school. We don't learn

40:13

about the microbiome in the gut and how to treat that.

40:15

We don't learn about how to deal

40:17

with metabolic or environmental toxins and how to

40:19

upregulate those pathways. And so that's a huge

40:21

piece. I mean, for me as someone who

40:24

had mercury poisoning and had chronic fatigue from

40:26

it, I had to learn about detoxification

40:28

and I had to learn about what genes I

40:30

had that impaired my detoxification or that didn't facilitate

40:32

it. I had to learn about how to look

40:34

at my load of environmental toxins and how to

40:37

upregulate those pathways. And doing that with patients

40:39

is a fairly effective thing. And

40:42

I think it's one of the actually real nuggets

40:44

of functional medicine that I think is

40:47

sort of underappreciated but can be widely

40:49

applied to help people just improve their

40:51

overall health. The

40:53

next thing I want to talk about, and I think you left

40:55

out of your four big advances, one

40:59

which I think we can touch on at the end,

41:02

which is insulin resistance and metabolic

41:04

dysfunction. But the

41:06

next big contribution is this idea that our

41:09

mitochondria matter. Now I

41:11

learned about mitochondria in first year medical school.

41:14

I learned about the Krebs cycle, biochemistry,

41:17

but then quickly forgot about it and

41:19

learned about a few really rare inherited

41:21

mitochondrial diseases. But otherwise, it was kind

41:23

of an irrelevant topic when it came

41:25

to clinical medicine. And yet

41:28

now we're learning that mitochondria play a role

41:30

in almost everything, whether it's cancer

41:32

or obesity or diabetes

41:34

or dementia or Parkinson's

41:37

or mental illness. Chris Palmer's

41:39

work, who's been on the podcast, talks about

41:42

basically mental health being a

41:44

metabolic mitochondrial disease. Suzanne

41:47

Go is on the podcast. She talked

41:49

about mitochondrial dysfunction in autistic brains and

41:51

treating that directly. And so you were

41:53

one of the first to bring mitochondrial

41:55

medicine into the conversation decades ago.

41:57

And I was like, well, I'm going to do

41:59

it. I don't want to have the Krebs cycle

42:01

again. I'm like, this is annoying. But

42:05

actually, it's one of the most fundamental things. And

42:07

I actually had to learn about mitochondria also

42:10

because I had mitochondrial dysfunction. CPKs are

42:12

600. My muscle enzymes

42:14

were so high. My mitochondria with chronic fatigue

42:16

were not working. And I

42:18

had significant mitochondrial dysfunction. And

42:21

I had to learn about mitochondria in order to

42:23

actually heal myself and heal my patients. Because one

42:25

of the essential things that we do in functional

42:27

medicine is to understand and to treat

42:31

mitochondrial dysfunction by eliminating the causes

42:33

that upregulate mitochondrial function. Can

42:35

you talk about this whole idea? How did

42:37

it come to be the mitochondrial resuscitation rejuvenation

42:40

idea? Yeah, thank you. So this

42:43

is really a fascinating example, I think, of

42:45

how we, taking information and

42:47

we started assembling it into a kind of

42:49

a story. So for me,

42:53

because I had been going to Atlanta quite a bit

42:57

in the early days of this field working

42:59

with metametrics and then later great spokeies, I

43:02

was introduced to this gentleman at

43:04

Emory Medical School who was in charge

43:06

of their inborn era metabolism mitochondrial disease

43:09

unit at the medical school. And

43:11

I learned about mitochondropathies from a

43:14

genetic perspective that we have because

43:16

mitochondria have their own DNA, extranuclear

43:18

DNA, which comes exclusively from the

43:20

mother. So these are maternally linked

43:22

genetic disorders and

43:25

things like Libra's optic neuropathy are very,

43:27

very serious conditions for these children to

43:30

suffer from. And so I

43:32

was learning about the mitochondria from that kind

43:34

of pathological perspective. So

43:36

then we were reintroduced

43:38

early on with functional medicine to Dr.

43:40

Paul Chini and his colleagues at Incline

43:43

Village, Nevada, who were the first to

43:45

report this infection that they were seeing

43:47

in their patients that was called chronic

43:49

fatigue syndrome. This is during the AIDS

43:52

HIV period in the mid 80s. And

43:55

so we developed a relationship with Paul, and

43:58

Paul was a PhD in immunology.

44:00

and quantum chemistry or quantum physics

44:02

actually and internist. And so we

44:04

kind of really geeked out

44:07

on this whole concept of why did you see

44:09

people with this condition after they

44:11

got over what appeared to be the infection.

44:14

They still were chronically ill

44:16

for many, many sometimes

44:18

years after having this chronic latent

44:20

condition, not dissimilar to what we see with long

44:22

COVID now. And so

44:24

we started really digging into that and I give

44:27

a lot of credit to Scott Rigdon who was

44:29

one of our first medical doctor involved and he

44:31

and Tucson, Arizona had, excuse me, in Scottsdale,

44:33

Arizona had a lot of chronic fatigue patients

44:36

and so we started doing a lot of work with

44:39

his patients and that led me then ultimately to

44:42

what I consider like the moment of

44:44

an aha. I met Robert

44:47

Hackman at the University of

44:49

Oregon who had been hired to run their

44:51

nutrition program. He had gotten his PhD from

44:54

Lucille Hurley at Davis who was very very

44:57

big in zinc and immunity

45:00

and so Bob and I got,

45:03

actually Robert and I got talking

45:05

about this concept of mitochondrial

45:07

bioenergetics, the energy powerhouse of the

45:09

cell, the mitochondria. And he

45:11

said, yeah I'm interested in the mitochondria too and

45:14

I said you know we need to study the

45:16

mitochondria in human beings to show that there is

45:18

some different functional state in

45:20

people to have these fatigue related

45:22

symptoms and he said well gee

45:24

whiz you know Jeff maybe you're

45:27

lucky because the University

45:29

of Oregon just got a grant from

45:31

the Otsuka Corporation in Japan to

45:33

bring the largest superconducting 5 Tesla

45:36

magnet to do NMR spectroscopy in

45:39

whole organisms into this laboratory. We

45:41

could be the first people to

45:43

do whole body NMR

45:45

analysis and so we developed a

45:47

piece of equipment where the candidate

45:50

would put their limb of their body, generally with

45:52

the arm of the leg into this machine. It

45:54

was a goniometer type

45:57

of instrument within this huge magnet.

46:00

And then they would exercise and we

46:02

would measure the phosphorus-31 resonance Remember

46:06

that mitochondria power up ATP Adetosin

46:09

triphosphate one of the

46:12

isotopes of phosphorus is anisotropic

46:15

p31 that you can measure with

46:17

a nuclear and Resonance

46:20

spectrometer in English that means for

46:22

those listening that when you're making

46:24

energy in your mitochondria it

46:27

it uses Phosphorus to

46:29

actually make ATP, which is the fuel

46:31

the gasoline and through the and makes

46:33

the MRI machine you could see This

46:36

particular phosphorus and whether you're producing

46:38

energy or not Exactly,

46:40

and so we could measure the

46:43

energy depletion and the energy recharge.

46:45

So we we measured I believe it's my

46:47

whole life It's okay. I'd

46:49

be nothing without him obviously. So what can I say?

46:52

So I

46:54

had to hit rewind so many times I might cassette tape and

46:56

like this tape would break Actually

46:59

started to understand jet plant ease, but it took

47:01

me a while. But now I am fluent. You

47:03

got it. You're total fluency So

47:05

we took 34 people Apparently

47:08

healthy in this particular

47:10

city was all women And

47:13

we put them on a program Which

47:16

we later called the mitochondria rejuvenation

47:18

program or resuscitation program But it

47:20

was basically high nutrients that we

47:23

knew were supportive like coenzyme q10

47:26

vitamin D Excuse

47:28

me. Yeah vitamin D vitamin E

47:30

omega-3 fatty acids What

47:33

else was in that like poic acid? I

47:36

think we had We

47:38

are at NAC in their in acetyl cysteine,

47:41

so they were put on this program and

47:44

We measured prior to putting them on the program

47:47

their ATP recharge rate using this

47:49

technology a dis mention Where

47:52

they would exercise to exhaustion in the machine and we

47:54

see how fast their ATP would go down and how

47:56

fast it would recover and So

47:59

then we put them on the ground on this program for 12 weeks

48:01

and then we put them back in the

48:03

machines and tested them again and lo and

48:05

behold we got extraordinarily fast recharge and much

48:07

slower loss of energy from

48:09

their mitochondria. I mean this was a surrogate

48:11

measure but was it considered

48:13

at the time to be the the

48:15

method of choice. Now an interesting feature

48:18

of this which I learned a bit of

48:20

story. So basically you're saying you gave people the

48:23

basic raw materials to make energy which

48:25

are vitamins and nutrients and minerals. That's

48:27

right. It actually can produce the energy

48:29

from food and oxygen in the mitochondria more

48:31

effectively so you get more energy production. Yeah.

48:33

And a lot of people walking around with

48:35

low energy and fatigue states that

48:37

may be related to mitochondrial function

48:40

but it's also across all the

48:42

spectrum of diseases that we just talked

48:44

about like yes mental health to metabolic

48:46

health to cancer and everything else. And

48:48

so their symptoms their

48:50

felt state across

48:52

the board of those women improved. They

48:55

had more energy more clarity of thought. You

48:57

know we measured them with pen and paper

48:59

psychometric instruments. So

49:02

we were so excited about that and we tried

49:04

to publish it but nobody would

49:06

accept that publication because that

49:08

technology was so new and they thought

49:10

we were making this up. Literally

49:13

that we ended up in a

49:15

tertiary journal finally did publish it. It took a

49:17

year and a half of testing all sorts of

49:19

different journals. We finally found one to accept

49:21

it. So that work ironically

49:25

became part of something that we

49:27

were speaking to to doctors now

49:30

I want to emphasize to doctors

49:32

about mitochondrial resuscitation became part of

49:34

a product and program. That

49:37

was picked up by the FUDN by

49:39

the FTC the Federal Trade Commission. They

49:42

claimed that in unjustified claim for

49:45

mitochondrial resuscitation. We

49:47

then went to the mat with them

49:50

and our attorney finally said you're not going to win

49:52

this. There's no way. They

49:54

don't even understand their experts don't

49:57

even understand nuclear magnetic resonance P31

49:59

spectroscopy. and you're going to have

50:01

to educate the whole FTC, that's not going to go

50:03

anywhere. So we did a summary judgment,

50:05

which is what ended me on Quackwatch. That

50:09

was the entering into

50:11

my experience with Quackwatch

50:13

because now I had a

50:15

summary judgment of this claim

50:17

of mitochondrial resuscitation, which that was

50:20

more than 30 years ago, but now it's

50:22

kind of come good over the years. But

50:25

that's how things happen. But now that constant

50:27

of mitochondrial function is so central in medicine.

50:30

Again, going back to the new research on the

50:32

hallmarks of aging, which has only been really developed

50:35

over the last decade or two because of the

50:37

investment of a lot of billionaires who don't want

50:39

to die. And so

50:41

we're getting all this research that in the field that

50:43

was completely ignored. And aside from

50:46

mitochondria and the microbiome

50:49

and many

50:51

of the things we talk about in functional medicine are part

50:53

of that. And mitochondrial dysfunction is one of the key features

50:56

of rapid aging. And

50:58

keeping your mitochondrial health is key. And so

51:00

it's one of those key concepts in functional

51:02

medicine that's foundational to treating so many diseases.

51:05

And now it's emerging in mental

51:07

health, which I think is so exciting around Chris

51:10

Palmer's work in mitochondrial health. But

51:12

it's across the spectrum of everything, whether it's

51:14

diabetes and ketogenic diets or cancer and ketogenic

51:16

diets. These are all about mitochondrial function. So

51:19

I think these concepts of gut restoration,

51:22

of metabolic detoxification, of mitochondrial resuscitation, they're so

51:24

fundamental to treating the chronic disease that we

51:26

have. And yet they're not something that we

51:28

learn about in medical school or that's practiced.

51:32

Okay, can I say something quickly with that, Mark? And I

51:34

think you said a really important point.

51:37

In medical school, you learn

51:39

about these as esoteric sidebars

51:41

of unusual conditions

51:43

that you're probably not likely to see. Yeah, it's a

51:45

grunt work you have to go to to get the

51:47

real stuff. That's right. And so I

51:51

think probably the most significant

51:53

contribution that I've made is to say

51:56

that there's a gradation

51:58

of effects. At one

52:00

side we have pathology, which

52:03

is where medicine hangs out. That's our

52:05

diagnostic codes, traditionally over here.

52:07

And on the other side we have whatever you

52:09

want to call wellness. And

52:12

we maybe have made the assumption that

52:14

you go from wellness to disease by

52:16

one step function. And let

52:18

me give you an example of this. I think it's

52:20

really important because you talked about insulin resistance. In

52:23

1998, the big thing was hypoglycemia.

52:27

Somebody would probably remember that. So

52:33

there was a seminar put on

52:35

by the University of Washington School

52:37

of Medicine on hypoglycemia with Dr.

52:39

Ed Beerman as the leader. I

52:41

studied out of Dr. Beerman's endocrinology

52:43

book. He was one of the

52:45

top endocrinologists. And he invited

52:48

me to be a presenter. I think I

52:50

was considered like the fugitive, kind of they

52:52

had to have one weird person on the

52:54

program. So that was me. Now remember,

52:56

this is 1979. That's a few years ago.

52:59

And so I really overprepared. I

53:01

mean, I knew this was going to be

53:04

my big chance, right, to say this voice

53:06

of gradation

53:08

between normal glycemia and

53:11

dysglycemia. So

53:14

I really prepared. I had, I thought, a

53:16

really compelling argument which I gave. And I

53:18

spoke really quickly back in those days. And

53:22

so I got my

53:24

information. I was kind of proud of myself, walked out

53:26

of the stage. And so Dr. Beerman was the next

53:28

presenter. So he went up and

53:30

he said something like, well, this young man

53:32

was very enthusiastic and he had a lot

53:34

of interesting things to say. But

53:36

I want you to know there is no

53:38

such thing as a gradation between normal glycemia

53:40

and dysglycemia. You either do

53:43

or don't have diabetes. There's no

53:45

ambiguity. So that kind of threw my

53:47

whole thing out the back door. But

53:49

I'm very pleased to see that over the years

53:51

that has been proven correct. Well,

53:53

I think that's one of the other big contributions

53:55

of AGF is helping us understand insulin resistance very

53:57

early on. And, you know, it's still, you know,

54:00

I just was talking to the folks at Quest Lab

54:02

and they said probably less than 1% of the tests

54:05

done that they get are for measuring insulin. It's

54:07

still not being checked. It's not being measured. They

54:09

have a new test that I mentioned called the

54:11

insulin resistance score where they look at C-peptide and

54:14

insulin through mass spec and it's an extremely sensitive

54:16

way to pick up insulin resistance.

54:18

And they're seeing changes in

54:20

pathology start with a hemoglobin A1C as

54:23

low as 5.1. So

54:25

anything over 5 is

54:27

starting to trend toward a problem and they're

54:29

seeing, they're quarreling that with lipid dysfunction. So

54:31

the vision you had to see these things

54:34

coming decades before anybody else said,

54:36

I've been measuring insulin in practice for 25

54:38

years. And

54:40

that's something that every doctor should do. And

54:42

now with this new insulin resistance score, which

54:44

is really inexpensive, doctors should be able to

54:47

actually check whether patients have metabolic dysfunction and

54:49

insulin resistance, which now affects 93.2% of

54:51

the population. So

54:54

lastly, about 15 minutes left, I want to talk about

54:56

kind of the work you're doing now around the immune system.

54:58

And you were one of the first people, again, to talk

55:00

about inflammation. I remember talking about

55:03

inflammation, measuring C-reactive protein. Again, 25

55:05

years ago before it was even

55:07

part of the conversation, before I

55:09

was even really connected to heart

55:11

disease, it's connected to cancer, diabetes,

55:13

dementia, I mean, depression, autism, ADD,

55:15

obviously all the inflammatory disease like

55:17

autoimmune disease, asthma, allergy, gut

55:19

issues, all of it's connected to inflammation is

55:21

this unifying theme that can

55:23

mess up the gut, that can cause metabolic

55:25

dysfunction, that can cause problems

55:28

with mitochondria, all of it's connected to inflammation.

55:30

And again, it's one of the hallmarks of

55:32

aging is inflammation. And

55:35

we typically think of our immune systems

55:38

as degrading over time. We become less

55:40

able to fight cancer, more likely to

55:42

get sick in infections. And that's what

55:44

we saw is sort of global high

55:48

rates of death in elderly who had COVID.

55:51

But you kind of introduced this

55:53

new idea called immunorejuvenation, which

55:55

is how do you rejuvenate your

55:58

immune system? What a concept, right? How

56:00

do you actually make it work better? How do you bring

56:02

it back to a more youthful state? And

56:04

your work around this topic now has been

56:06

really profound, and then you've connected it all

56:08

to this concept of immunomatabolism. So

56:11

in the last, you know, 15 minutes

56:13

or so, I'd love you to sort

56:15

of unpack this whole concept of immunorejuvenation,

56:17

immunomatabolism, and the work you're doing using

56:20

certain phytochemicals like Himalayan tarebukwete to

56:23

actually help the immune system to restore to

56:25

a more youthful state. Yeah,

56:27

I think that again, this concept of

56:29

our immune system is the

56:32

revolution of this age. And

56:34

maybe it was profoundly

56:37

accelerated because of SARS-CoV-2.

56:41

You know, we as a country had the

56:43

poorest outcome of any developed country

56:46

with the greatest expenditure of medical

56:48

doctor, medical dollars. We

56:50

had the poorest outcome, intubation, hospitalization, and death.

56:52

And it wasn't because we're an older society.

56:55

It was something with our immune systems

56:57

that were not as effective as others.

57:00

And now we're starting to say it was probably a lot to

57:02

do with our innate immune system, the first line of defense. If

57:05

that didn't do a good job, then things

57:07

were really passed on to the adaptive immune

57:09

system, which got overworked. And

57:11

now people started getting hyperresponse

57:13

and hyperinflammation. And so this

57:15

comes- So just to stop you there. So for

57:17

the people listening, innate immune system is the ancient kind

57:20

of generalized immune system that is

57:22

conserved among all species, and

57:24

it's nonspecific. And the adaptive immune system

57:26

is the one that creates antibodies that

57:28

are like smart bombs to go targeting

57:30

the particular pathogen or problem we're seeing.

57:33

Yeah. And the innate immune

57:35

system sits on the surfaces of our

57:37

outer body that's inside. It sits on

57:39

our mucosal surfaces of our gut.

57:41

It sits on our lungs. So

57:44

it has the first line of defense responsibilities.

57:46

It's enriched in those places that is exposed

57:48

to the outside world. And

57:50

so if it's not working right, then it gives

57:53

entree into things to get inside and start

57:55

to act at the second level. So

57:59

when I started- thinking about this and

58:01

looking at what was going on with

58:04

research in the immune system, thanks

58:06

to introductions of people that you introduced me

58:08

to, like David Furman at Stanford and

58:11

a variety of others, I recognized that we

58:13

were starting to learn for the first time how

58:15

the immune system actually recovers

58:17

its function when it's undergone

58:20

insult at the innate immune

58:22

system level. Because before, it

58:24

was always thought the immune system was

58:26

kind of a primitive system that didn't

58:28

learn, it couldn't be taught new lessons,

58:31

you couldn't reboot the innate immune

58:33

system. Well, it turns out that's wrong. We've now

58:35

learned that the innate immune system can be learned

58:38

in a different way than the

58:40

adaptive immune system with its antibodies,

58:42

but it can be taught either

58:44

bad messages or good messages. And

58:46

so the question is, how do you do that? And

58:49

then I started studying all sorts of

58:51

things about the hematopoietic system, looking at

58:53

where the origin of these cells come

58:55

from, which is the bone marrow, and

58:57

what are related to kind of

59:00

dyscrasius that lead to these immunological problems,

59:02

and can those things in the bone

59:04

marrow be rejuvenated? Because these are

59:07

primordial stem cells and they have the ability to

59:09

create different outcomes. All this kind

59:11

of led me into a swirling study

59:15

for the last now five years that

59:17

ultimately, if I can distill it down, I can

59:20

distill it down to, I think,

59:22

one salient feature. And

59:25

that is this family of

59:27

nutrients that

59:29

we have neglected importance

59:31

in nutrition for time

59:34

historic, which

59:36

Hans, not

59:38

Hanseli, St. Georgie actually

59:40

brought us to understand. You know,

59:42

St. Georgie discovered vitamin C, and

59:45

he got it from what? The

59:47

reason he was able to discover vitamin C is

59:49

he was able to amass over a pound of

59:51

crystalline vitamin C. Remember,

59:54

he was Polish. Oh, no, he's a Hungarian. So

59:57

what is a food? Yes.

1:00:00

Paprika has the highest level of vitamin C. I'm winning the I-Tibial

1:00:03

quiz today. Yeah. You're doing well.

1:00:05

So Paprika was the food that

1:00:07

he chose to isolate vitamin C.

1:00:13

But what people don't often understand is that when

1:00:15

he gave the vitamin C from

1:00:18

Paprika, the crystalline vitamin C,

1:00:20

99% pure crystalline white vitamin

1:00:22

C, when he gave

1:00:24

it to guinea pigs, remember that's where we get

1:00:26

this whole concept of the guinea pig because it's

1:00:29

a vitamin C requiring animal. It can have scurvy.

1:00:31

So that was a test organism for aniscorbitic.

1:00:34

That's how it got its name. Ascorbitic

1:00:37

acid, ascorbic acid. So

1:00:39

when he gave vitamin C to the guinea pigs, they

1:00:42

got better, but they didn't get completely

1:00:44

well. Only when

1:00:47

he gave them the impure vitamin C

1:00:49

that had residues of the color of

1:00:52

the original vegetable, which

1:00:55

he called substance P. He

1:00:58

actually called it vitamin P. For

1:01:00

Paprika? Right. And

1:01:03

it turns out that that

1:01:06

became then known as the

1:01:08

anti-permeability factors. So

1:01:10

the P played both ways,

1:01:12

paprika and permeability. So

1:01:15

it prevented capillary fragility,

1:01:17

basically. Prevented bruising. And

1:01:21

it worked with vitamin C. So his view

1:01:24

was you had vitamin P and

1:01:26

vitamin C work together in a

1:01:28

whole food. But

1:01:31

we then latched on to ascorbic acid

1:01:33

as the biolin endome. Well,

1:01:35

then you say, well, what is in vitamin P?

1:01:38

It turns out it's a mixture of

1:01:40

molecules that have color in

1:01:42

the flavonoid family. So

1:01:45

this kind of got lost over time. It

1:01:48

was held on to by the nutrition weirdos, of which

1:01:50

I'm proud to say I'm one. And

1:01:53

in the nutrition field, the health

1:01:55

food field, St.

1:01:57

Georgie's work still was around. We still

1:01:59

did. talked about flavonoids with vitamin

1:02:01

C. No one else talked

1:02:04

about it. It was not in traditional nutrition.

1:02:07

Now it's come big time. Now

1:02:09

why has it come big time? There

1:02:11

are many, many reasons I could just go off on this. I

1:02:14

promise I'll just go off. Just go off. Stay on the tracks.

1:02:18

So it was thought, and I think if

1:02:20

I surveyed all of you, you would know

1:02:23

things about flavonoids. Absolutely. Remember the poly...

1:02:26

And these are phytochemicals. Right. There are

1:02:28

phytochemicals found in colored fruits

1:02:30

and vegetables. So that's why

1:02:32

Dr. Minnick says, eat the rainbow, because

1:02:34

you get a lot of these compounds, these

1:02:36

nutrients in your diet if you eat

1:02:38

the rainbow, natural rainbow, not synthetically colored.

1:02:43

So it turns out that this array

1:02:45

of what we call

1:02:47

polyphenols, of which flavonoids are one,

1:02:49

that array has huge benefit, we

1:02:52

know, as an antioxidant. So everybody

1:02:54

talks about the antioxidant effect of

1:02:56

flavonoids. No one would be surprised

1:02:58

in this room to be saying

1:03:00

it. And I've said it many,

1:03:02

many times, as a guy who wrote articles in the 70s

1:03:05

on antioxidants, I've said

1:03:07

it in many articles. Well,

1:03:09

that's only a small part of the story, because

1:03:12

you cannot, in

1:03:14

any way, shape, or form, correlate the

1:03:16

ORAC of flavonoids, meaning

1:03:18

their antioxidant capabilities with their biological

1:03:21

effect. It doesn't correlate.

1:03:25

The only thing that correlates is to

1:03:27

understand a mechanism of action that is

1:03:29

beyond that of their antioxidant. Yes, they

1:03:31

are antioxidants, but they're specific

1:03:33

in their cell physiology, and they

1:03:35

have receptor sites that we're now

1:03:37

discovering, as signal transducers.

1:03:39

They signal to the cell how

1:03:42

the genes are going to be expressed.

1:03:44

They're the shop bosses that control the

1:03:46

genetic architecture of how our

1:03:48

genes are expressed, meaning they're

1:03:51

epigenetic modulators. So

1:03:53

phytochemicals in foods modify our

1:03:55

gene expression. That's exactly right. Now,

1:03:58

people say, but... If I took

1:04:00

all the flavonoids out of the diet, I

1:04:02

wouldn't get a deficiency disease. I wouldn't get

1:04:05

scurvy, very, very, pellacrid, xerothamyl, rickets, quashcora, and

1:04:07

marasmus. So how do I know that

1:04:09

they're useful? We know

1:04:11

they're useful because of years of lack

1:04:13

of consumption, you will have a rising

1:04:15

tide of all chronic diseases that are

1:04:17

associated with inflammation. That's

1:04:19

a profound statement, Jeff. What you're saying is that

1:04:22

we haven't identified these plant

1:04:24

compounds as essential nutrients, like

1:04:27

vitamins or minerals. But in fact, they

1:04:29

are. And that they don't show up as

1:04:31

a quote, deficiency disease. They show up as

1:04:34

a chronic illness later in life. That's

1:04:36

exactly right. So we just finished a clinical

1:04:38

trial. When I say we, Dr.

1:04:40

Austin Perlmutter is my research

1:04:43

director for our little big, bold health. We

1:04:46

got an IRB-approved study, which

1:04:48

I would admit is

1:04:50

a pilot study. So only 50 people, 50

1:04:53

apparently healthy people. We

1:04:55

measured their immune epigenome

1:04:58

prior to intervention with a polyphenol rich diet,

1:05:00

which turns out to be this Himalayan tartaree

1:05:02

buckwheat crop that we're

1:05:05

extraordinarily interested in because it's 4,000

1:05:07

year old food. And people live in

1:05:09

the blue zones, eat these polyphenols that are found

1:05:11

in tartaree buckwheat. And

1:05:14

the immune genome, for the listening,

1:05:16

is basically the genes that regulate

1:05:18

our immune system. That's right. And they

1:05:20

turn on or off different pathways. Which

1:05:22

control inflammation. Or

1:05:24

up-regulate or down-regulate inflammation. So this

1:05:26

is a really important concept, that

1:05:29

we have these foods

1:05:31

that can modify our immune genome.

1:05:34

Precisely correct. What

1:05:36

I'm sharing with you here, I think, is

1:05:39

the work of my life. I think this

1:05:41

is the most important area I've

1:05:44

had the privilege of working in. And I don't want to say that

1:05:46

we've discovered this. There are many other people that are working in this

1:05:48

field. But

1:05:50

this clinical trial that we did is

1:05:53

quite remarkable. I think it's the only in-first clinical trial

1:05:55

of its type in which we looked at epigenetic

1:05:59

modulation. of immune cells

1:06:01

before and after intervention after 90

1:06:03

days with Himalayan tartaribukweed polyphenols. And

1:06:06

we found 223 differentially modulated

1:06:08

CpG sites. What's that mean?

1:06:11

It means there were over 200

1:06:13

different genes that we could

1:06:15

see over 90 days change their

1:06:17

epigenetic regulation of gene expression, which

1:06:20

we could correlate with different subpopulations

1:06:22

of immune cells. We're actually

1:06:24

changing their immune personality over 90 days.

1:06:27

So you're saying basically when you eat these

1:06:29

plant compounds like Himalayan tartaribukweed, it has these

1:06:31

polyphenols that change gene expression across

1:06:34

over 200 genes that modulate

1:06:36

inflammation in our immune system and our immune

1:06:38

health? Yes. And most importantly,

1:06:41

and this is the big aha, we

1:06:43

did EOS, Epigenetic

1:06:46

Wide Association Studies on

1:06:48

a terabyte of data. So this is

1:06:51

a huge amount of information by using

1:06:53

AI, machine learning. We

1:06:56

found that there was one of these

1:06:59

loci, that was epigenetically modified,

1:07:01

25-fold. This

1:07:03

is way beyond statistical significance. This

1:07:05

is point many, many zeros significant.

1:07:09

It's ceramide kinase 1 regulatory

1:07:11

pathway, which is a dominant

1:07:14

pathway controlling immune senescence. We're

1:07:17

actually able with the polyphenols

1:07:19

to regulate one of the

1:07:21

central switching genetic

1:07:25

controllers, of how your

1:07:28

immune system ages and transitions itself

1:07:30

into meta-inflammation,

1:07:34

into basically being in an alarm state.

1:07:36

And aging itself is a state of chronic

1:07:39

sterile inflammation. That's right. So anything that modulates

1:07:41

that is a huge discovery. And what you're

1:07:43

basically saying is that we can, through

1:07:45

looking at these 200 different sites

1:07:48

and the epigenetics, which is essentially the

1:07:50

regulator of our genes, we

1:07:52

can actually modify how those epigenetic

1:07:55

regulation pathways work by

1:07:57

taking certain plant compounds.

1:08:00

that then will upregulate our

1:08:02

immune health. Precisely. And I

1:08:04

think the other part of this that to

1:08:07

me is. I'm a pretty good translator, right?

1:08:09

You're fantastic. That's why I need to take

1:08:11

you everywhere. You want to travel six million

1:08:13

more miles? I'm good. Virtually

1:08:16

happy to go. So the

1:08:19

upshot of this to me is as follows. That

1:08:23

we know polyphenols have many

1:08:25

different names of compounds, quercetin,

1:08:27

luteolin, diazmin. I

1:08:29

could go down all the names. But this applies to,

1:08:31

say, hundreds of different compounds are in this family. And

1:08:34

we generally have studied nutrition like we study

1:08:37

drugs, one nutrient at a time. So let's

1:08:39

study rutin. Then let's study

1:08:41

quercetin. Then let's study epigallid, catechin,

1:08:43

galli. Then go down the list.

1:08:46

But now what we're learning is

1:08:48

that these work as orchestration of

1:08:50

regulating genes epigenetically.

1:08:53

It's not just one gene at a time.

1:08:55

It's not just one molecule against one gene.

1:08:57

It is an orchestration when we need complexity.

1:09:00

We have an effect, as

1:09:02

you would with a Tchaikovsky

1:09:04

suite that's being played by a good

1:09:07

orchestra. You don't just have the first

1:09:09

violinist. It might be the virtuoso of all

1:09:11

violinists. But if you don't have the rest

1:09:13

of the brass percussion and windwind wings, it's

1:09:15

not going to be the same sound.

1:09:18

And so we're finding that this

1:09:21

construct of nutrition, whole nutrition, food

1:09:23

is medicine, as it

1:09:25

relates to the symbiotic, synergistic

1:09:27

interrelationship at the genetic regulation level

1:09:29

of how our genes express

1:09:31

their function may be

1:09:33

the secret sauce that transforms this in

1:09:37

all of how we see nutrition. Yeah. And

1:09:39

then when you told me, you were in studies

1:09:41

using the Hamill and TariBuckley or

1:09:43

its extracts to reverse immune

1:09:46

age. 47%

1:09:49

reduction in 90 days with

1:09:51

people who had elevated immune age to begin

1:09:53

with. 47% reduction in 90 days. And

1:09:56

we're going to be able to increasingly measure these

1:09:58

biomarkers clinically and show them. of these

1:10:00

interventions and track things over time. I

1:10:03

just redid my epigenetic age. And as I

1:10:05

got two years older, by applying a lot

1:10:07

of these concepts, I've been actually taking Himalayan

1:10:09

thyroid buckwheat, among other things, even

1:10:11

though I got two years chronologically older, I

1:10:13

got four years biologically younger through

1:10:16

epigenetic modulation of these pathways that

1:10:18

we can influence through our diet

1:10:20

and lifestyle and other interventions. So

1:10:22

this is extraordinary work. I think,

1:10:24

Jeff, you keep on learning,

1:10:26

growing. You're 70 years old. And you

1:10:29

act like you're like 25 just discovering

1:10:32

something. Well, let me just chip in

1:10:34

there just quickly. So

1:10:36

I'm 78 as of last

1:10:38

March. And I

1:10:40

also had my, after all, my

1:10:43

own program, my epigenetic immune age

1:10:45

measure. You then functioned health. So

1:10:53

we don't know exactly what that means. But as I think,

1:10:55

it's much better to be 56.7 than to be 90. And

1:11:01

you can measure that through functionhealth.com forward

1:11:04

slash mark, because you get to use

1:11:06

their biological calculator to see what your biological

1:11:08

age is not subject to. It's pretty impressive.

1:11:11

I think anybody who really wants to learn

1:11:14

more about this should check out Jeff's work.

1:11:16

You can go to bigboldhealth.com, which

1:11:19

really Jeff has started as a company

1:11:21

to bring this deep

1:11:23

science and the understanding of

1:11:25

how to apply some of

1:11:27

these extraordinary phytochemicals to immunorejuvenation.

1:11:31

I'm an investor, a supporter. In fact,

1:11:33

I put in Himalayan tarry buckwheat sprout powder

1:11:35

into my smoothie every morning. That's an easy

1:11:37

way to get a good dose of that.

1:11:40

It's yummy and nutty and delicious. And

1:11:44

I think if we can unlock

1:11:46

these little nuggets

1:11:49

of wisdom that you kind

1:11:51

of unpack for us from understanding the

1:11:53

gut and the microbiome to

1:11:55

metabolic detoxification, to insulin

1:11:57

resistance, to mitochondrial health.

1:12:00

to immuno rejuvenation. This

1:12:03

is the stuff that is the foundational pieces of

1:12:06

the future of medicine. It's going to

1:12:08

help lead us out of this desert of chronic disease that

1:12:11

we've been wandering in and getting worse for the last

1:12:13

50 years. So Jeff, thank you for your work, for

1:12:15

what you do, for what you've taught me, for

1:12:17

what you've taught so many millions of people, for the six

1:12:19

million miles we've traveled around the world, and

1:12:22

have a lot of road rash around. I mean, we

1:12:24

all wouldn't be here if it weren't for you. So

1:12:26

thank you so much, Jeff, for your contribution to the

1:12:28

world. And I think Jeff needs to win the Nobel

1:12:30

Prize for what he's done. Well, let me just put

1:12:33

it this way. I

1:12:41

would be nothing without a translator. So

1:12:43

thanks for listening today. If you love

1:12:46

this podcast, please share it with your

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me on all social media channels at Dr. Mark

1:12:59

Hyman. And we'll see you next

1:13:01

time on The Doctor's Pharmacy. This

1:13:27

podcast is separate from my clinical practice at the

1:13:29

Ultra Wellness Center, and my work at Cleveland Clinic

1:13:31

and Function Health, where I'm

1:13:33

the chief medical officer. This podcast represents my

1:13:35

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1:13:38

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1:13:40

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1:13:42

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1:13:44

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1:13:46

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1:13:55

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1:13:57

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1:14:00

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1:14:02

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1:14:04

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1:14:06

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1:14:09

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