0:00

Hey. It's Dan here just with

0:02

a brief message about what you're

0:04

about to hear this of a

0:06

drop of another podcast. But never

0:08

fear, it is filled with flop

0:10

house content To it's gotta thing

0:12

that I wrote for a John

0:14

Hodgman to read the first written

0:16

comedy I've done for John Hodgman

0:18

since or old days working together

0:20

on the Daily Show with Jon

0:22

Stewart. It also has me and

0:25

Elliott doing some improv. In

0:27

character at length of thing that we

0:29

do not do on our own show.

0:31

so I hope you enjoy here. you

0:33

know what does. The show itself explains

0:35

it's premise right up at the top.

0:37

Way better than I will ever be

0:39

able to, but I just wanted to

0:41

sort of explain why was here we'd

0:43

a little crossover. it's about the Matrix.

0:45

We didn't upset about the Matrix and

0:47

we thought you guys would enjoy hearing

0:50

the stuff that Elliott and I. Did.

0:52

For this other show. And

0:55

and the shell a very special crossover

0:57

episode with a plan. as long as

0:59

was his advantage then it's know not

1:01

allies and. Me:

1:24

To say. Hi.

1:34

I'm your host Chris Symbol and here

1:36

with Stephen Levinson and Kevin Carter welcoming

1:38

you to the novel I there's a

1:40

podcast retake classic films yet tv comedy

1:43

writers from I Guess I now the

1:45

I T crowd. The Daily Show called

1:47

there and More to turn them into

1:49

a full length audio bucks. then we

1:51

going to different actor comedian like Take

1:53

A Simmons, Wayne Brady, Will Forte, Rachel

1:55

Dratch, Ira Glass, Jake Johnson, Map Mercer

1:57

and more to marry each chapter. This

2:00

season, we're novelizing The Matrix and this

2:02

episode, we're doing something special. See, it

2:04

turns out, we're not the only movie

2:06

podcast on the internet. That's right, there's

2:08

also another one. It's called The Flop

2:10

House podcast and it's hilarious. The host,

2:12

Elliot Kalin, Dan McCorrie, and Stuart Wellington

2:14

get together and talk about movies that

2:16

maybe didn't do as well as the

2:18

creators had hoped or as we call

2:21

those in the business flops. Whoa, whoa,

2:23

whoa, whoa, whoa, whoa, slow down, slow

2:25

down. So like they don't

2:27

novelize movies? I don't get it. Yeah,

2:29

it's crazy, but somehow it works. Anyway,

2:31

we invited Dan and Elliot to come

2:33

on our show and help us novelize

2:36

The Matrix. But before we hear

2:38

that, Kevin, catch us up on where we are

2:40

in the film. Morpheus tells Neil that it's not

2:42

1999, but it's more closer to 2199. He

2:47

shows Neil around the Nebuchadnezzar ship, introducing the

2:49

crew, and before he shows Neil what The

2:51

Matrix is, he gets stuck in the back

2:53

of his head and is put into the

2:56

construct, which is actually a computer program. He

2:58

then shows Neil what he thinks the world

3:00

is and what the world actually looks like.

3:02

Neil sees the truth and immediately wants out.

3:05

Thanks, Kevin. Now, here's the

3:07

flophouse podcast Dan McCoy, who also

3:09

wrote for The Daily Show for

3:11

over a decade. He's novelizing a

3:13

chapter narrated by John Hodgman, star

3:16

of the Judge John Hodgman podcast,

3:18

Dictown on FX Hulu, and books

3:20

like Vacationland and Medallion Status. John

3:22

Hodgman, novelize us. The

3:26

Matrix. Chapter 9, Kung

3:28

Fu Tussle, novelized by

3:30

Dan McCoy, narrated by John

3:33

Hodgman. Neil woke

3:35

up from the computer simulation in a cold

3:37

sweat, like a formerly successful

3:39

writer, whose career had been reduced

3:41

to novelizing hit movies of the

3:43

past. Who are

3:45

all you people? He yelled at the

3:47

crew of the Nebuchadnezzar. And why

3:49

are you all dressed in artfully torn oversized

3:52

sweaters, like a bunch of Chris

3:54

Evans' from Knives Out? Neil

3:56

laughed hysterically at his own anatheistic joke,

3:59

which proved to be an mistake, as

4:01

his meat-space body soon gasped for air. Breathe,

4:04

Morpheus suggested, helpfully, as if that

4:07

wasn't currently number one on his

4:09

priority list. Neo

4:11

collapsed to the ground, expelling the curdled milk from

4:13

his mouth that he'd been saving in his cheek

4:15

to enjoy later, I guess. Suddenly

4:18

the camera focus went all blurry, which Neo took

4:20

as his cue to pass out. He

4:23

awoke some time later, like

4:25

a detective in an old cult novel who was

4:27

always, quote, awaking some time later, as if there's

4:29

no way to check a goddamn clock. He

4:31

lay on a bed that definitely, 100%, was full of bedbugs. Ew,

4:37

everything's so grimy in the real world, he

4:39

thought. Where do real world people

4:41

buy these linens and itchy sweaters? Bed

4:44

burlap and beyond? Morpheus

4:47

sat in the shadows next to him, apparently one

4:49

of those creeps who likes to watch people while they're sleeping.

4:52

I better let him know I'm awake,

4:54

Neo thought, before he starts taking pictures.

4:57

He ventured a question. I can't

4:59

go back, can I? You

5:02

can't go home again, said Morpheus, quoting

5:04

the author Thomas Wolf, who I bet

5:07

never had to novelize any goddamn movies

5:09

just to earn enough to buy his

5:11

family frozen peas. I'm thinking.

5:14

Neo lay on his side, staring away

5:16

from Morpheus in the traditional position for

5:18

all young people getting lectured by Dad.

5:21

Neo, I'm sorry. I made

5:23

an oopsie. Normally, we don't

5:26

wake someone's mind up once they're past

5:28

a certain age. It's hard on

5:30

them. It can cause a condition

5:32

we call mindous expletus.

5:36

You know when that would have been useful

5:38

information, Neo thought, when you were

5:40

handing out the magic pills? Anyway,

5:43

let's chalk that one up in

5:45

the my bad column. Morpheus

5:48

paused, in a way a person

5:50

does who's about to justify their actions. Once

5:53

you're in bed already, let me tell

5:55

you a story. He Handed Neo a

5:57

glass of warm milk that he had scraped up

5:59

from the. The floor where neo and left

6:01

it. Once. Upon a time, there

6:03

was this guy. Who could see

6:06

that he was in the Matrix? He

6:08

was the first two weeks. People love

6:10

me. Oh started to zone out the

6:12

way he always did. Whenever someone started

6:14

explaining their religious beliefs. he started to

6:16

tell the little bits of them. but

6:18

he saw in the see. I'll

6:21

spare you the irrelevant details of

6:24

how. One nude guy and

6:26

a part of move could possibly

6:28

managed to make other people off

6:30

Or how they could then build

6:32

complex airships that have the ability

6:35

to jack into the Matrix Movies

6:37

droned on the i wondered when

6:39

the chem trails and fluoride would

6:41

come in. His name was kids.

6:43

a colossal. Or two

6:45

for short. Agree to

6:47

man. He saved us all from

6:49

the Mind virus and taught us

6:52

that people we thought were fellow

6:54

humans were just and he sees.

6:56

We believe we were woke

6:58

but only see could wait.

7:01

For. A mobile berber amorphous. His voice

7:04

faded out as Neo drifted off

7:06

to sleep. An hour later, we'll

7:08

woke up just in time to

7:10

hear more fiance and that's why

7:12

it's okay to suit other people.

7:15

Because. They don't have souls. The and.

7:17

Nonlinear. Would panic that he

7:19

missed something important. Bulldozing. But. To

7:22

be honest, he was a pretty standard

7:24

Susan One narrative. so he had gotten

7:26

the just. Basically. Of

7:28

a deal was there was a magic too

7:31

long ago. could borrow page from Jesus is

7:33

playbook and died. And. Now because

7:35

of some prophecy by an oracle. Named

7:38

in a kind of first thought kind

7:40

of way, Let's be honest, the Oracle.

7:42

More. For years was convinced that the one.

7:45

Was. gonna be resurrected any day

7:47

now oh sees me avast

7:49

as discussing i'm is messiah

7:51

now just because neal is

7:53

an anagram for one that

7:55

would be dumb but fetuses

7:57

doubts with him on the

7:59

On the surface, he just smiled at Morpheus and said,

8:02

Cool story, bro. Morpheus smiled

8:04

back. It is cool, Broseph, he

8:07

said. His the coolest

8:09

story ever told. He

8:11

arose and looked at Neo with an

8:13

expression straight from the dictionary definition of

8:15

portentous. He asked, are

8:18

you ready? For

8:21

what? Neo responded with

8:23

barely controlled panic. He

8:25

looked around the room for pictures of Kool-Aid

8:27

or a pile of Xerox pamphlets or, worst

8:30

of all, a baptismal.

8:32

Your training, Morpheus said. And

8:35

then left the room, leaving Neo to wonder,

8:37

am I supposed to

8:39

follow you or what? I've

8:42

been through a lot today. And

8:44

then he drifted back to sleep. That

8:46

evening, Neo sat on the floor

8:48

enjoying a petty mall seizure from

8:50

the Nebuchadnezzar's constantly flickering lights. A

8:53

muscular man who was certainly large enough to

8:55

be imposing but nowhere near as large as

8:58

a tank walked in with the

9:00

costiness of the sort of movie actor who would

9:02

demand a pay raise so large that his role

9:04

would be recast if, for instance, that movie had

9:06

two sequels. Stay untanked, he

9:08

said, extending his acceptably muscular

9:11

arm to shake hands with Neo. You

9:14

don't have one of those, you know,

9:16

gestures at the back of his head where his metal matrix

9:18

port was. Brain

9:20

anuses or brainesses, as we call them?

9:23

Nope. Me and my brother were 100%

9:25

born in the real world. Neo

9:28

wasn't really digging the star belly sneeches or the

9:31

best sneeches on the beach's energy this dude was

9:33

bringing, but he ignored it as

9:35

the decidedly non-tank sized man continued.

9:38

I'm a genuine child of Zion.

9:41

Zion? Neo asked

9:44

politely. Oh man, it's

9:46

rad. It's the last human city

9:48

and it's like, ugh, you ever go

9:50

to a rave under a bunch of stalactites? It's

9:53

so bitchin'. Don't worry, you'll see

9:55

it for yourself in like, half a movie. My

9:58

day is play this weekend. He

10:00

handed Neo a flyer for his

10:02

band, Tankskankers. It's kinda

10:04

like Ska Electric Lash, but

10:06

we also had big gongs. Thanks,

10:10

Neo said, mentally throwing the

10:12

flyer in the trash. And

10:14

why are you here? I'm

10:17

here to stick my thing in your brainness

10:19

and upgrade your software. Moments

10:22

later, Neo found himself in a sort of

10:24

steampunk dentist chair as tanks

10:26

shuffled through some computer disks. Let's

10:28

see, Encarta97, Leisure Suit Larry in

10:32

the Land of the Lounge Lizards, ah, here we go,

10:35

fighting for dummies. He

10:37

jacked Neo in, and the chosen one

10:39

shook as he had his first braingasm.

10:42

countless fighting styles flooded

10:44

his neurons. Jiu Jitsu,

10:46

Jipun Do, Wing Chung,

10:49

Yang Chung, Brazilian

10:51

dance fighting, Brazilian wax fighting,

10:53

Foxy boxing, that thing where

10:55

you have a friend get on their hands and knees behind

10:57

someone and then you push them over.

11:00

The information coursed through Neo's brain,

11:03

the ultimate power fantasy of getting to

11:05

be really cool and good at something

11:08

without ever having to actually practice. His

11:11

eyes sprang open to meet the gaze of

11:13

Morpheus, who had yet again wandered in to

11:15

stare creepily at Neo while he was unconscious.

11:18

I know Kung Fu, Neo said,

11:21

and also Kung Fu, the

11:23

legend continues, whoa. Morpheus

11:26

smiled, happy to see that he'd indoctrinated

11:28

Neo into his little violence club. Well,

11:31

let's see it, grasshopper,

11:33

he said. Suddenly the

11:36

two of them found themselves in a

11:38

spacious, airy dojo. This is

11:40

a sparring program, Morpheus said. It

11:42

has rules similar to reality, but you can bend the

11:45

rules a bit. Sort of

11:47

like corrupt Supreme Court Justice Clarence Thomas.

11:50

Neo nodded, understanding. Okay

11:53

then, Neo, hit me with your best

11:55

shot, fire away. Neo

11:59

yelled, and waved his arms around in a

12:01

way that anyone writing a novelization of

12:03

a movie would definitely not be getting

12:06

paid enough to adequately describe. Seriously. Like,

12:08

what are you supposed to do with an action scene here? Describe

12:10

every punch? You've seen kung fu movies

12:12

before. You figure it out. All

12:15

right, anyway, even though he was doing a really

12:17

good job at punching, there was no match at

12:19

how good Morpheus was at punching. And

12:21

then once Neo saw how good his mentor could punch, he

12:23

backed off and he gave a little smile. He

12:26

would say, oh, I see. And then

12:28

he ran up Morpheus's chest, kicking

12:30

him and defying gravity like

12:32

some kind of wire-fu Looney Tunes character.

12:36

But it turned out that Morpheus was good at kicking

12:38

too. So kicking wise, it was

12:40

also kind of a draw. But if

12:42

you were seeing this rather than having it described to you, it

12:45

would look totally cool. Back on the

12:47

ship, a character whose name I would have learned if the publishers

12:49

had met my quote, ran into the

12:51

mess hall yelling, fight, fight. And everyone ran to

12:53

watch like, a fight? I gotta see this. Even

12:56

though presumably training happened all the time. But

12:59

whatever, I get it. The only entertainment on

13:01

the Anabica Nezor was like one copy of Parchisi

13:03

that survived the apocalypse. And if they wanted to

13:06

watch TV, the only streaming service

13:08

they got was Crackle. Can you imagine?

13:10

Crackle. Gross. Meanwhile,

13:12

back in the danger room, Neo and Morpheus were

13:14

doing a bunch of cool-looking stuff. Like at one

13:17

point, Neo ran up a wooden beam and flipped

13:19

over as if to say, eat my ass, download

13:21

Connor and seen in the rain. And

13:24

then Morpheus gave a look and said, that don't depress a

13:26

me much. And he kicked Neo

13:28

into another wooden beam, breaking it as if to

13:30

say, cool it with wooden beams, dude.

13:33

The older man walked calmly toward the

13:35

battered Neo to Morpheus playing Neo's failure.

13:38

You think I'm winning because I'm stronger than you. There

13:41

are no muscles in the matrix. There's

13:43

no air that you're breathing. There's

13:45

no spoon. Oh, sorry. That line comes

13:47

later. And then he casually kicked Neo in the

13:49

face. It's all in your

13:51

head, man. His words

13:53

had the intended effect on Neo, who

13:55

cranked his inner remote control to double

13:57

time. Like the way you're probably listening

14:00

to the- this podcast so you can finish him in the

14:02

bathroom before your supervisor notices you're not at your desk. And

14:04

Neo did basically the same punching he was

14:07

doing before, but this time really fast. And

14:09

turns out, fast punching was a

14:12

winning strategy. And Neo soon

14:14

had Morpheus cornered up against his old nemesis,

14:16

a wooden beam. Neo growled,

14:19

I know what you're trying to do. Morpheus

14:22

shot back, I'm trying to free

14:24

your mind. Free your mind, and

14:26

the rest will follow. Before you can read

14:28

me, you got to learn how to see

14:30

me. And then he turned his

14:32

eyes skyward to address the ship. Okay? Load

14:35

the jumpy thingy. Suddenly the two men

14:38

were atop a skyscraper. And

14:40

Morpheus is wearing a leather duster and

14:42

strapless goggles, which, unlike when

14:44

you wear that stuff, looked really cool. You

14:46

gotta let it all go, Neo. Doubt,

14:49

fear, YOLO, you know?

14:52

Then Morpheus ran toward the side of the roof

14:54

and jumped high in the air all the way

14:56

to the next building with a

14:58

girlish, weeeeeee! Whoa, Neo said

15:01

in a manner that

15:04

could only be described as Keanu-esque. His

15:06

duster looks awesome when he does that.

15:09

Neo backed up to get a running start. Okay,

15:12

Mr. Anderson, he muttered to himself,

15:14

it's time to make the donuts. Back

15:17

on the ship, watching the action, Trinity bit

15:20

her lip, and finally,

15:22

this was her favorite part, the

15:24

jumping. Neo sped toward

15:26

the edge. Weeeeeee!

15:29

Whoaaaa! He

15:32

yelled as he absolutely biffed it hard. It

15:34

was embarrassing. Neo plunged toward the

15:36

hard concrete below, while Trinity gave

15:38

a look that indicated that her

15:41

horniness levels had plunged, in

15:43

a manner not unlike Neo, off a

15:45

building. Fortunately, the concrete had

15:47

been animated by Chuck Jones, so

15:49

Neo bounced off it. Weeeeeee!

15:51

he said despondently. Everyone

15:54

fails the first time, Cypher said, showing a

15:56

lot of empathy for a guy who's probably

15:58

about to be revealed as a villain. pretty

16:00

soon. Right, Trin? Trin?

16:03

But Trinity had already left to go to

16:05

the next scene. Thank

16:07

you, John Hodgman. Each week, we talk

16:09

to someone who actually worked behind the

16:11

scenes on the actual film The Matrix.

16:13

And this week is no exception. Let's

16:15

roll that interview. All

16:18

right. I am here with the special

16:20

stunt support team for the film The

16:23

Matrix. I have Elliot Kalin and Dan

16:25

McCoy here. Hi, Elliot and Dan. How

16:27

are you guys today? Oh, very well.

16:29

Thank you. Yeah, great. Thank you so much for having us. Yeah.

16:32

So, special stunt support team. Tell

16:35

me a little bit about what you did for the film. I'm not

16:37

even sure what that means. So, this is a role

16:39

that is in... It's used more and

16:41

more in movies now, but it was pretty new

16:44

around the time that The Matrix was produced

16:46

when we were brought on board for it. And

16:48

that is, you notice that in The Matrix, there's

16:50

a lot of what you call, I guess, special

16:52

stunt choreography. A lot of jumps where someone has

16:54

to hang in the air for quite a while

16:56

or the scene where it

16:58

kind of bends over backwards very far.

17:01

And those scenes take an incredible toll

17:03

on the muscles of a former's body.

17:05

In some cases, they are impossible to

17:09

actually hold your body in that position for that

17:11

amount of time on your own. And so, Dan

17:14

and I, our job was to literally

17:16

be kind of like the organic

17:18

pedestals, I guess you could say, to

17:21

hold them up, to keep them in that position

17:23

for the extent of the shot. For instance, early

17:25

in the movie, Carrie Anne Moss, she jumps in

17:28

the air, the camera spins around her, she's in

17:30

the air the entire time. Nobody

17:32

can do that. Yeah, that's impossible. Come on.

17:34

It's impossible. It's science fictional that someone would

17:36

be able to do something like that. So,

17:38

I was literally the one who kind of

17:40

like held her up during that time. That's

17:42

not an actual jump. That's me lifting her

17:44

up above my head and then holding her

17:46

in that position while the camera spins. And

17:48

then using technology that was very new at

17:50

the time, they just paint brush me out

17:52

and it's seamless. You can't even know I

17:54

was there, but I'm there holding her up.

17:56

And similarly, Dan, do you want to talk

17:58

about the... These bending over

18:00

backward? Yeah, when I'm sickness that was would

18:02

your specialty. When Ciano would bend backwards to

18:04

escape those bullets I would be you know,

18:06

sort of down below him your as one

18:08

would if you know you were going to

18:10

trip a person but I'm not there. it's

18:12

if I'm I'm there to provide quite the

18:14

opposite. The. Support is the important

18:16

thing in the special. said support team.

18:19

We are like human as so skeletons

18:22

sort of a you know muscles on

18:24

the outside. I our to the most

18:26

other the human puppeteer almost you know

18:29

helping to manipulate the body so. We.

18:31

Can capture these amazing starts when it's worth

18:33

the best. you working as an extension of

18:35

the actors. Physical body and it takes

18:38

a lot of. Getting. To know them,

18:40

spending time with them, rehearsing with them, to get

18:42

to the point where it is just seamless. We're

18:44

working as one and sometimes it's hard to know

18:46

when your body stops in, your body starts and

18:48

if we get that close to it. Wow. This

18:50

is I mean I have so many questions

18:53

as assassinating I mean far south I I

18:55

and silly to of assume that but I

18:57

really thought that all of that was like

18:59

in power to that mean they would be

19:01

It looks like Ferret limiting it looks like

19:04

they're held in mid air but that that

19:06

you know actually something that they're creating. it's

19:08

a it's a Visual effects are creating a

19:10

poster we're telling me is. You.

19:13

Were physically they're holding

19:15

up. These bodies. For.

19:17

That duration of time is that correct?

19:20

Yes, Exactly. Wow. I mean you know what

19:22

we wanted to do and for the glory

19:24

we would be informed the camera It's fine

19:26

that you don't know that we we are

19:28

now or Zara the demo removes afterwards. True

19:31

True True Well. And to be honest I

19:33

feel like that would sort of take away

19:35

from the sound is nancy do see you

19:37

holding him or her own. Argument

19:39

I had with from the directors I thought

19:41

it would. It's kind of interest to you

19:43

know like sort of a Michel Gondry you

19:46

see the wires kind of thing. By to

19:48

possibly they wanted to go in different direction.

19:51

While. But that syncing yes he pissed that onset

19:53

to just. Stay. In the cell and they

19:55

wouldn't. They wouldn't rush you out. I mean,

19:57

sometimes it starts to you see that you.

20:00

The Shade all the more. The craft. Yeah,

20:02

both of us studied a boon Roku. Other

20:04

tree in which the puppeteers are visible at

20:07

all times. they're dressed in black their masks

20:09

that they're visible on stage and you kind

20:11

of free get the theories thereafter surmounted time

20:13

so that was dance. The pitch to the

20:15

with Aussies was that eventual the audience would

20:17

forget he was there. They just get so

20:19

used to seeing him that they wouldn't even

20:21

know his there were and that been it's

20:23

way a more impressive illusion in if he

20:25

wasn't there and silly didn't know what they

20:27

were it seeing an. Audience can't? They

20:29

can't. Be. Impressed by what they

20:32

don't know. They're not seeing that. They can be

20:34

easily impressed by what they are see and for

20:36

guess. That their see an audience cannot be

20:38

impressed by something they don't know they're not

20:40

seeing. Wow that is. That is so

20:42

true. If I don't know that there's that work

20:44

going and then I can't be impressed by that

20:47

work. So I what you're saying is it's it's

20:49

almost may have to kind of know how much

20:51

went into this and then he the to reveal

20:53

that now that you are Instagram in each so

20:55

you are physically holding a body up for a

20:58

very long time and what's amazing about the work

21:00

that you did which is. Which is so

21:02

impressive is that. The. Scene: So

21:04

still facing so surreal in mid air.

21:06

or like when she's leaning back you

21:09

know his movement is so seamless. I

21:11

can't believe that you're actually underneath him

21:13

holding him up because you're doing such

21:16

a good job of making it seem

21:18

like. You. Know that's that's a

21:20

skill that he has within this

21:22

character. You know it's really impressive.

21:25

World's. Also use very important to music.

21:27

A proposal is a hard thing to

21:29

do. I had to tell see on

21:31

your arm with looks. I. Don't

21:33

know. There's all the ways that even get

21:36

off of your body right now with

21:38

a meteor. Had your keys on said you

21:40

had our phone on said her after several

21:42

hours that is gonna add some restrained

21:44

me he could not. Get home

21:46

one day because he couldn't find his car keys

21:49

but I I maintain that's his problem. He was

21:51

selling work with you though he didn't were soft

21:53

seat and were underpants. Any leads remove to some

21:55

some milligrams of wait to make the job that

21:57

much easier for you. I release. Or human prayer.

22:00

for that. That's interesting that you would have to say

22:02

that to him about his keys and his phone.

22:04

I didn't even know, you know, he would have had a phone

22:06

or keys in his pocket on set. It's interesting you had to

22:08

say that but I'm so glad you did because it probably made

22:10

your job in that moment much easier. Oh, it's

22:12

so much easier. He's very forgetful. He's a very

22:14

forgetful act. I mean, the thing is when he's

22:16

in character, he doesn't forget. But when the minute

22:18

he's out of character, he forgets. So he's like,

22:20

well, where's my keys? Where's my phone? I

22:23

mean, he's a very sweet guy but he freezes, he loses

22:25

them a lot. So he always wants to have them on

22:27

him. So he's a special case. He's a special case. Mary

22:29

Ann, she didn't have her keys or her phone on her

22:31

when I was picking her up for that big job. That

22:33

feels very professional that she didn't have things in her

22:35

pockets when she was filming. Also the

22:37

pants they were wearing often were too tight to

22:39

really have too much in their pockets because... Especially

22:42

hers. Yeah. Yes, exactly. And

22:45

you'd see it on camera and sometimes they'd have to paint

22:47

that out if she forgot that she had like, she went

22:49

to lunch, she put the receipt in her pocket. She just,

22:51

you know, you do. You just kind of stuck in your

22:53

pocket, you're not thinking about it. And then you can see

22:55

this kind of like bulge where a crumpled up receipt is.

22:58

You'd have to remove that. They're already removing me from so

23:00

many of these scenes. She goes to the bank, she

23:03

picks up a dum-dum, you know, at the

23:05

teller. Right. That sucker to have later.

23:07

You can't have that in there. And so obvious if

23:09

you have a sucker in your pocket and you're wearing super

23:11

tight leather pants. Like, I mean, no, you're not

23:13

even going to mistake that for something else. Everyone knows that you went to

23:15

the bank and you got a sucker, you know, and it's not professional. Only

23:18

an explanation. Yeah. And now they're wondering,

23:20

did Trinity go to the bank? I didn't

23:22

see that scene. Right. Is the bank

23:24

in the Matrix world or is it in our world which is

23:26

also kind of the Matrix world? Right. It

23:29

raises a lot of questions. And so then it's got

23:31

to be painted out and that's more money that gets

23:33

spent in the budget. That's more money that could go

23:35

to painting out people rather than painting out things. This

23:38

is such an interesting role. And this is the person who

23:40

ever heard of this role existing on

23:42

a set. Are there other films that you

23:44

two have worked on where you've provided this

23:47

kind of assistance to the film? We

23:49

actually work a lot. There's so many, especially the

23:51

introduction of the Marvel superhero movies has been

23:53

fantastic. Those characters are always jumping and flying

23:56

and doing stuff like that. And

23:58

so we do a lot of that. We

24:00

do a lot of those newest Star Wars

24:02

movies when Yoda was

24:04

jumping around in the, I forget which

24:06

prequel it was, I think the third

24:09

one, that was a lot of me having

24:11

to like pick him up and twist him

24:13

around on set. And

24:16

we did a lot of work in the Country Bears

24:18

movie that came out a while back,

24:20

not too long after The Matrix, because

24:23

just the costumes were very heavy. And

24:25

so the actors were just having trouble

24:27

standing up in them. So

24:30

Dan and I would be kind of leaning on

24:32

them just to keep them standing up straight. You

24:34

know, that's not being stunts, just helping them out

24:36

with the costumes. Human buttresses

24:38

is kind of the way

24:40

I viewed our work on that one. I remember on the

24:42

set, as I said, we called ourselves the bear-tresses, which was

24:44

very funny. We were the bear-tresses. We

24:46

got some jackets and said that. Yeah. I

24:48

love that. You know, I have

24:51

to say, you must both be very,

24:53

very strong. You would think, but

24:56

I'm quite a weak man. And

24:58

honestly, I'm not sure how much longer

25:00

I can stay in this business or

25:03

frankly, why I

25:06

still get hired because I have to

25:08

take a lot of breaks. I would imagine. I

25:10

mean, but that's not even like, look,

25:12

I have a three-year-old daughter and I

25:14

have a hard time holding her up.

25:17

I can't even imagine holding a grown

25:19

human person above my head in

25:21

a very still position for an extended

25:23

amount of time and not feeling quite

25:26

overwhelmed. Yes. Well, that's when the

25:28

training kicks in. That's when the breathing. Yeah, it's important

25:30

to look at your breathing and to control that way.

25:32

But it does take enormous wear and tear on your

25:34

body. You know, there are times when I'll be at

25:37

home and I have to carry groceries and I just

25:39

feel the pain all up and down the right side

25:41

of my body especially. And my wife was like, oh,

25:43

you can pick up Chris Evans, but you can't pick

25:46

up these groceries. And I'm like, you don't understand. When

25:48

I'm on set, it's like another

25:50

person is helping. It's like the spirit

25:52

of everyone who's ever worked on a

25:54

film is kind of inhabiting

25:56

me and helping me with that strength. I kind of don't realize

25:58

it because I'm performing, you know, in that. moment. But when

26:00

in regular life, it's very hard. It really does

26:02

take a toll and, you know, arthritis is a

26:05

major problem for people in our line of work,

26:07

as is, you know, muscle boredom. It's

26:10

called when your muscles get, they get

26:12

tired of being in one position, not

26:14

just physically, but also kind of emotionally.

26:16

It's very difficult. Oh, that's so interesting.

26:18

That's why I've heard of the term muscle

26:20

memory, but I've never heard of muscle boredom.

26:22

Oh, yeah. The muscle has an enormous amount

26:24

of cognitive function that you don't often hear

26:26

about. And the flip side of that muscle memory is, of

26:29

course, muscle boredom. Yeah. Wow. That's so interesting.

26:31

So, were there days where you didn't have a

26:33

lot to do on set? Maybe days where you

26:35

were there, but they weren't shooting things where they

26:37

needed a human body holding another

26:39

human body? Well, we did some other

26:42

work on set and honestly, it was

26:44

kind of an offshoot of our primary

26:46

work. We were also responsible for polishing

26:48

all of the black leather that was

26:50

such a big part of the matrix

26:53

costuming. And you

26:55

can imagine holding up people, we're getting

26:57

our hands all over that leather all

27:00

day. So, we had squeegees, we had

27:02

spray bottles. I can tell

27:04

you so much about the

27:06

proper care and feeding

27:08

a bladder because you really do need to feed it. It's

27:11

a living thing. Boils and omelets

27:13

and, you know. We're

27:16

actually listed twice in the credits.

27:18

First as special stunt support and

27:20

then also later under a wardrobe

27:22

consistency technician. Just keeping

27:24

that wardrobe looking consistent. Leather is

27:27

very fingerprintable. It's very easy to

27:29

crease, very easy to just

27:31

get grease on it and they serve

27:33

so much fried food. And those actors eat it.

27:35

Then they eat it. I've been on sets before.

27:37

These actors, they eat greasy food all day long.

27:39

All the time because if you're an actor, you

27:41

don't know, you're like, great, I'm getting catered lunch

27:44

right now, but I might not work for a

27:46

while. I may not get food again for a

27:48

while. Let me throw a moment here

27:50

where you're kind of, you know, doing both jobs in

27:52

one day. Let's say one of you is holding up

27:54

a body. The other one is

27:56

sort of supporting that and then they

27:58

call cut. you

28:00

put Keanu or whatever other performer down

28:03

and then you immediately grab some squeegees

28:05

and you start kind of scrubbing them

28:07

up. I mean, sometimes we have to

28:09

work sort of in tandem like a

28:12

delicate ballet, you know, if

28:14

there's movement required and Elliot's moving

28:17

a body part, as soon as he moves his

28:19

hand, I might swoop in, quick

28:21

little squeegee because the more work that can

28:24

be done in camera, the less that stuff

28:26

needs to be taken out and posed. But

28:28

what you're describing now makes me think there

28:30

actually is a lot happening in post because if

28:32

you are in the shot and then you are

28:34

squeegeeing, like they still have to remove you from

28:37

the shot. So to me, like and look, I

28:39

am not a professional. So this is why it's

28:41

so interesting to talk to you guys about this.

28:43

Because to me, I feel like it'd be easier

28:45

to edit out a smudge on a pair of

28:47

pants than a whole human body actively

28:50

scrubbing someone else's body in the shot,

28:52

but I must be wrong. Well,

28:54

it's funny you think that you think that but the

28:56

way that technology has developed, it's actually the opposite. Dan,

28:58

I think I cut you off, but you were saying

29:00

I'm sure exactly what I was about to say. Well,

29:04

yes. I mean, like, look, in

29:06

terms of your man hours,

29:09

is it simpler? Maybe.

29:12

But in terms of what looks good on camera, like

29:15

if you want to make it look good, it's way

29:18

simpler to do it our way. It's similar to

29:20

how when they were making site though, Alfred Hitchcock

29:23

was like, oh, I need blood to pour down the

29:25

shower. Get me some chocolate syrup. And

29:27

they said, no, we have real human blood for you

29:29

right here. And they tried it and it just didn't

29:31

look like blood. It just didn't look like real blood

29:33

on cameras. They had to use chocolate syrup. And I

29:35

don't know what they did with it. Or

29:37

where they got it. Or where they got it. Exactly. Back

29:40

then they could do that. The studio system back then, the

29:42

stories that I've heard. It was a real waste of blood.

29:45

I just wanted to mention it's funny that Dan referred

29:47

to it as a delicate ballet. That's

29:49

really how I got into this. When I was young, I

29:51

went to see the ballet, my family's with me

29:53

and I saw the male dancers lifting up the

29:56

female dancers. And it just, I was

29:58

like, that's what I want to do. I found the

30:00

thing that I want to do with my life and I'm

30:02

so lucky that I got to live

30:04

out that childhood dream. Because unfortunately, you

30:06

had no talent for dance, per se.

30:09

Yes. The little bit of

30:11

time that I spent trying to learn the dance

30:13

was a mistake. That was a waste of time

30:15

and I apologize to everyone who was hurt during

30:17

that period. But the lifting, I

30:19

found I had a talent for and I remember when

30:21

my teacher said to me, you need to leave this

30:23

studio right now but I want to see you lifting

30:25

people or you've wasted your

30:27

life. And I think about it

30:29

all the time. Think about it all the time. Wow. That

30:32

does feel like one of those comments that sticks with

30:34

you. So, am I right to assume that the two

30:36

of you sort of invented this job and maybe this

30:39

is the beginning of this being a role on a

30:41

film set? Yes, that's true. We sort of

30:43

hung out our shingle and I'll tell you

30:45

something. For many, many years, people were like,

30:47

why? You know? But it just

30:50

takes getting one foot in the door, a

30:52

foot that we are holding up and

30:55

Hollywood opened up for us. I have

30:57

to say, I'm sure most if not

30:59

all great artists in the

31:01

history of time have had someone say why

31:03

when they first started, you

31:05

know? I'm sure Picasso got

31:08

that. So, it really feels like

31:10

you guys knew in that moment like, I'm going to keep

31:12

with this because I know there's something special here. We've

31:14

used that Picasso comparison a lot actually in

31:17

conversation with each other. And yeah, you're right.

31:20

When he first started painting pictures of people

31:22

that are all messed up and broken into

31:24

pieces and kind of mushed around. I'm sure

31:26

people were confused by it. Is

31:28

this even really painting? And that's kind of the

31:30

way they felt with us. Early on, a lot

31:32

of the time, we'd get told why can't we

31:34

use wires for that? And

31:37

luckily, choreography has gotten

31:39

so intricate and so

31:41

complicated. You got a

31:43

tangling problem. Yes, exactly. And

31:45

I remember there was one job, I won't say the name of

31:48

it, there was one director who said, no, I'm going to use

31:50

wires. And then the wires got

31:52

tangled and they came to us

31:54

kind of sheepishly. And we said, we'll

31:56

do it, but we're going to charge you three times what we were

31:58

going to charge you before. just because of the

32:00

insult. Shame on them. Anyway, that was James Cameron.

32:02

I said I wasn't gonna mention his name but

32:04

I did. I think it's fair. And the movie

32:06

was Titanic? Yes, and the movie was

32:08

Titanic, exactly. Yeah, oh, so you made it. I

32:11

mean, because we also, he said, I don't want to

32:13

credit you in this. I'm gonna just say we did

32:15

it with wires because he was mad at us and

32:17

we said, then you're gonna have to pay us more.

32:19

So they actually paid us a no credit fee. But

32:21

all that stuff, Kate was, she could not stop slipping

32:23

off that desk that was floating in the

32:25

water. I was just gonna ask you what

32:27

scene was it because I don't remember a scene where

32:29

there was somebody how that, so were you under the

32:31

water? Yes. So we had scuba

32:34

gear and we were actually balancing the

32:36

desk and each with one hand and we each

32:38

had another hand on her ankle. Yeah. To

32:40

kind of hold her in place on that because

32:42

she's a naturally slippery person. She's a very talented

32:44

actress but naturally slippery and it was hard work.

32:47

It's sort of like the beginning of the Muppet movie,

32:49

you know, where Kermit's playing in the middle of a

32:52

swamp and you're like, where's Jim Ensign? You know, it's

32:54

all done with scuba gear and such. Frankly,

32:56

you know, I'm glad that

32:59

Cameron came through with the money but I'll

33:01

let you in on a little secret. We

33:04

kept doubling our salary so often. That's a lot of

33:06

why Titanic costs as much as it does. Well,

33:08

I always like to say in these interviews, you have a

33:10

platform right now. Is there a project you're working on

33:12

where, you know, you'd love to see if you

33:14

can get some traction here and just talk about it a bit?

33:17

Dan, do you want to talk about Island of the Floaters

33:19

or should I talk about Island of the Floaters? Why

33:22

don't you talk about it? You know, Island

33:24

of the Floaters is an idea we've talked about

33:26

where it's a world where everyone is hovering

33:28

about three and a half, four feet off the

33:31

ground at all times and it's a romantic

33:33

comedy. You know, it's really fun. It's silly. There's

33:36

a lot of heart to it but everyone's always

33:38

floating. And so this is our

33:40

chance we feel like to employ all the people

33:42

that we want to employ working as stunt supporters.

33:46

And there'll be times in the movie where

33:48

you'll see it happening. We will finally see the

33:50

people holding them up. Not the whole time but

33:53

we'll ease you into it. It starts out there

33:55

just floating and you're like, how is this happening?

33:57

And then over time you start to see the...

34:00

support people and then eventually you just see just

34:02

the support people and the people the actors that

34:04

we're holding up aren't even on screen anymore. They're

34:06

still there. They're the ones that get painted out.

34:09

Exactly, exactly. How fascinating.

34:12

That is so what a cool idea. I

34:14

mean, look, it feels pretty

34:16

unique as far as I'm concerned and

34:19

quite a project, quite an undertaking.

34:21

But I think if there's anyone who could do it,

34:23

it seems like you guys are, you're the pair, you

34:25

know. We hope so. I mean, Hollywood's been afraid of

34:27

it. So, they keep telling us, you know, like there's

34:29

no screenplay or story reason why these people need to

34:32

be floating and we're like, well, we're

34:34

the reason, you know, Hollywood. Well, and the reason

34:36

is the title. Exactly. You get it. The Island

34:38

of the Floaters, like that's the reason. So, that's

34:40

almost confusing. They don't get that, you know. Yes.

34:42

It's like if you make Star Wars, it's got

34:44

to be among the stars. If you just call

34:46

it wars, it doesn't have to be. The title

34:49

is the foundation that you build all that on

34:51

and it tells people what to expect. So,

34:53

you got to do it for the title. Sometimes

34:55

people in Hollywood just don't get it, you

34:58

know. Amen. Great keepers. Well, I

35:00

have to say, this has been such a wonderful

35:02

interview getting to know the two of you, learning

35:04

about this role on a set that I never

35:06

even knew existed and I just thank you so

35:08

much for your time today. Thank you.

35:10

Yeah, thank you very much. We really appreciate your help

35:12

with us getting the word out about this work. It's

35:15

just so important to us. I think it

35:17

will continue. It sounds like you have a really cool thing on your

35:19

hands here. Oh, pun. And

35:22

that's our show for today. Thank

35:24

you to The Flophouse Podcast, Elliot

35:26

and Dan, plus Jon Hossett. Join

35:28

us next week for a chapter

35:30

novelized by new girl, Steve Agee

35:32

and narrated by David Doss-Maltzion, who

35:34

you've seen in tune. Oppenheimer, Suicide

35:36

Squad, and Late Night with the

35:38

Devil. Till then, Steven, unplug us

35:40

from this matrix. You got

35:43

it. The novelizers is produced by

35:45

me, Steven Levenson with Graham Douglas,

35:47

Kevin Carter, Christine Bowen, Dennis DeClaudio,

35:49

Rob Cudner and Suchada Spokil. Music

35:52

by Cole Amoff. Graphic designed by

35:54

Crystal Dennis. Theme song by Andrew

35:56

Lynn performed by Knott's. Special

35:59

thanks to Chris Talwaltz. and WYSO

36:01

radio in Yellow Springs, Ohio. The

36:03

novelizers is a work of parody

36:05

unauthorized by Warner Brothers. Follow the

36:07

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36:09

TikTok, and please donate to our

36:12

Patreon. Copyright 2024, novelizers LLC. Take

36:16

us out, Amy Mann. There

36:20

was a matrix made

36:22

of computers. There was

36:25

a guy who's a

36:27

dodge-over bullet. Heel

36:29

it and woo it just

36:31

like a monkey has. But

36:35

he was wrong and my

36:38

baby Jesus. God

36:42

is a movie, right

36:45

above, and also

36:47

weird to me.