0:00

Hello and welcome to this podcast

0:02

from the BBC World Service. Please

0:04

let us know what you think and tell

0:07

other people of Isis on social media. Podcasts

0:09

from the BBC World Service. are

0:12

supported by advertising. Hold

0:19

up. What was that? Boring. No

0:21

flavour. That was as bad as

0:24

those leftovers you ate all week.

0:26

Kiki Palmer here. And it's time

0:28

to say hello to something fresh

0:30

and guilt-free. HelloFresh. Jazz up dinner

0:33

with pecan-crusted chicken or garlic butter

0:35

shrimps can be. Now that's music

0:37

to my mouth. HelloFresh. Let's get

0:39

this dinner party started. Discover all

0:42

the delicious possibilities at hellofresh.com. What

0:56

if I said you could be in a restaurant with your partner

0:58

almost every night of the week?

1:25

The wine flowing, each dish that

1:28

arrives out of the kitchen expected

1:30

to be perfection. You

1:32

wouldn't be dining though. You'd be doing.

1:34

Preparing. Cooking. Serving.

1:37

Because this is your business.

1:40

Together. Your life. Welcome

1:43

to the food chain from the

1:45

BBC World Service. I'm Ruth Alexander

1:47

and this week we're meeting couples

1:49

who run restaurants. When

1:51

I saw him on dress up as a

1:53

chef it was like a wow. A lot

1:55

of butter flying my stomach. I was very

1:58

nervous. They'll tell us what

2:00

it's worth. really like to live and

2:02

work side by side. She'll pull me

2:04

back from creating disasters in the kitchen,

2:06

you know, like, mm-mm. And

2:09

there was a point that I was looking to

2:11

my coworker. I wasn't looking at my partner or

2:13

my girlfriend anymore. Sharing

2:15

the highs and the lows. We had

2:17

no customers. The reality hits, and

2:20

you think, what have we done? This is serious. And

2:22

why they do it. You know,

2:24

it's not just business. It's not

2:26

just a relationship. This

2:28

is an entire full life,

2:31

and it means a lot.

2:37

Just south of Manchester in the northwest

2:39

of England, this busy main road cuts

2:41

through the town of Sale. And

2:44

it's one of those places where you

2:46

feel you could probably buy anything. There's

2:48

a bathroom shop, a golfing shop, a

2:50

fireworks shop. And between that

2:52

and a derelict Irish pub,

2:55

a small but smart-looking restaurant

2:57

called The Perfect Match. Let's

2:59

find out why. Sorry

3:03

we're closed, it says, but that's because this is

3:05

their day off, kindly blessing this

3:07

evening. Where are they? Hello,

3:13

I'm Ruth from the BBC. And

3:16

nice to meet you. Nice to meet you. And

3:18

there's Jaz around as well. Yeah, yeah, she's

3:20

just here. Oh, hello, I'm

3:22

Ruth from the food chain. Hiya.

3:25

Jaz, nice to meet you. Nice to meet you too. So

3:28

I have to ask, you

3:30

guys, you own this place. You're also

3:32

a couple. Is that why it's called

3:35

The Perfect Match? It's not, it's

3:37

actually food and wine pairing. Each

3:39

dish has a perfect match, which is the

3:42

wine pairing. And Andrea, you're the sommelier, and

3:44

Jaz, you're the chef, is that right? That's

3:46

right, yeah. But maybe you are a perfect

3:48

match. Some day, yeah, some day

3:50

a bit less, it's always a bit like that,

3:53

up and down. But, you know, no, we are

3:55

a good team. Yeah,

3:57

we are a very, very solid team. Perfect

3:59

is difficult. to achieve though. Good

4:01

to aim for. Well we're

4:03

in the restaurant bit, small, cozy.

4:06

Yeah so it's quite intimate, we're

4:08

around 28 seats and

4:10

then we have a little bar area as well.

4:12

And then beyond that is the

4:14

kitchen, I'd love to see how big

4:17

the kitchen is. Yeah

4:21

well for the size of the restaurant it is

4:23

a decent sized kitchen and probably if the

4:26

chef wasn't an owner it'd be half the size

4:28

but I like to have my space and

4:30

a big kitchen so. You

4:32

put your foot down about that one. That's it. But

4:35

that must have been quite a big decision because of course

4:37

I guess if you had less kitchen you could have more

4:40

tables. So what did you think

4:42

of this decision Andrea? We tried to make the

4:44

best with what we had and I

4:46

think it worked also. I think we were a

4:49

bit young, we learned

4:51

through the journey. 100% I mean

4:54

I was when we opened I was 24 and

4:56

you would have been 28. 28 yeah. So how

5:00

many people do you know that are running their own

5:02

restaurant at that age? So I always

5:04

say I don't know if it was we were

5:06

naive or we were really brave or a mix of

5:08

both but we've made it happen. You

5:11

know we committed and we had to make it work.

5:14

I'd love to find out a bit more about that. Could we

5:16

take a seat in the restaurant? Of course you could. How

5:23

did you two meet? So

5:25

we met at the Savoy Grill

5:27

by Gordon Ramsay in London and

5:31

I was at that time I

5:33

would have been chef to party I think. You wish

5:35

you were a commie man. I was like a commie maybe

5:37

I was a commie then. And

5:39

then Andrea was just. I was

5:41

a commie too. I was a commie somewhere

5:44

yeah. Somewhere down the lower ranks. And

5:47

then we worked our way up. And

5:50

what first attracted you to one another? Was

5:53

it instant attraction or slow burn? It

5:57

took me a while to convince just to go after a

5:59

thing with me. I reckon it was

6:01

at least six, eight months,

6:03

if not more. Why, Jan? I

6:06

just found him really annoying at the start. He just

6:08

kept asking me to go, I was thinking, we

6:11

should just leave me alone, but he wouldn't leave me alone.

6:14

What changed your mind then? I think

6:16

it would have been food and wine that brought

6:19

us together, because those two sat at a table

6:21

in a restaurant, there's so

6:23

much to talk about for us. We just had

6:25

such a good time. I actually go... I'm going

6:27

to show you something. I got this picture that

6:29

has been taken by somebody. Yeah. Way

6:36

back when? Oh,

6:38

there you are! So these must

6:40

have been taken, like, nine years ago? Ten

6:43

years, maybe? That's you

6:45

and your chef's white, you and your

6:47

smart sommeliers white shirt. So

6:49

you've got your arms stretched out to the pass. As

6:52

you're peeping through the big smile on

6:54

your face, I can sense the frisson.

6:58

There is something there for sure.

7:00

Talking about the decision to

7:02

open your own restaurant, how

7:05

did that come to pass? When

7:07

we were living in London together, so we used to have

7:09

a flight in Whitechapel, it

7:11

was a bit crazy, really, because we'd finish

7:14

our 16-hour shift, our 14-hour shift, depending

7:16

on where we were working, maybe at midnight, and

7:18

we'd both come home and we'd cook such

7:21

a good meal, wouldn't we? Like, you know,

7:23

and we'd pair our wine with it. Yeah,

7:27

so this industry, it

7:29

can be very tiring, and sometimes, you have a bad

7:31

day, you come back home, and you complain about your

7:33

colleague, and with your

7:35

partner, you just ease a bit of your

7:37

frustration. So I think sometimes there was this chat,

7:39

like, oh, I wish it was just me and you, I wish it

7:41

was just me and you, and eventually one

7:44

day it happened. Did that feel

7:46

like a really big step for your relationship,

7:49

to get into business together,

7:52

to become financially committed to

7:54

one another? Again, what I've

7:57

said before about either being really brave or really

7:59

naive... comes to mind because

8:02

it was maybe a bit of both and

8:04

maybe we just we plunged ourselves into it

8:06

and then you have to you

8:09

have to do it. And how long had you been together for

8:11

at this point? I've been together

8:14

for a year. So not even that long to be fair.

8:17

Was it a test of the relationship? Trying

8:19

to get the restaurant up and running? I

8:22

think every day is a test really. We've

8:26

had our highest moments together and we've

8:28

had our lowest moments together. We've had

8:30

the moment where I remember

8:32

this is one of my saddest moments

8:35

of it would have been bonfire night

8:37

2019 when we opened and we did

8:39

zero covers. And

8:41

I remember because the fireworks were going off

8:44

outside and we were stood in this restaurant

8:46

looking at each other thinking what have we

8:48

done? Where are the diners? We've opened, hello.

8:50

Yeah we put in everything we

8:52

ever worked for, every penny we had and more.

8:55

And we had no customers and those

8:59

times are really really scary when you have

9:01

those moments. The reality hits

9:03

and you think what have we done? This is serious.

9:05

But then you know that's

9:08

what four years ago now, four and

9:10

a half years ago maybe. And we're thriving

9:12

you know we're really busy but you don't have a

9:14

choice you just need to carry on. You just need

9:16

to make it work. What do you

9:18

do if you've had an argument about something and

9:21

one of you are furious with the other or maybe you're

9:23

both furious with each other and you have to come in

9:25

and work and you've got a team working with you. Like

9:27

what do you, how do you handle that?

9:30

I don't like to argue in front

9:32

of my team because I think

9:35

it's unprofessional so I try my best not to.

9:38

Andre is a bit more hotheaded than me because

9:40

he likes to argue on the spot and

9:42

then we've dealt with it whereas I am

9:45

a bit more, I

9:47

probably carry it a bit more like throughout the

9:49

day. So like if I'm annoyed I'll be annoyed

9:51

all day whereas he'll be annoyed within the hour.

9:53

It won't an argument and then it's over then.

10:00

days. What do you say you've learned

10:02

about one another and your

10:04

relationship through this restaurant?

10:07

I would say so, 100% because we've seen each other

10:10

at our probably most vulnerable moments

10:12

and we've seen each other at our strongest moments

10:15

and it does teach you a lot about the person

10:18

you're working with, how they react

10:20

to bad news, to situations and

10:23

how they support you as

10:25

well. So I come from a

10:27

family business as well and I think

10:30

my parents did always very, very good sometimes

10:32

when we see their argument up and down

10:34

but when you run a business

10:36

you can yes look ahead and

10:39

see what's next and what you can do

10:41

to become better. You can look back to

10:43

see how far you come but we

10:45

are lucky because as a part we can also look at

10:47

our side and see that we're not alone. So that's the

10:49

most important thing for me as well. That's how we

10:52

make it easier to go

10:54

forward and also to appreciate how far you come

10:56

because you have somebody to share with. Could

11:00

you imagine the relationship without the

11:04

restaurant? Maybe

11:07

we'd better. I

11:10

don't know, I think sometime

11:13

one of the problems we are working on

11:15

in our private life is to try to don't

11:18

become an extension of our work so

11:21

sometime we will have some rules like especially when

11:23

we have a very tough week on

11:25

our day off we don't talk about work. Sometimes

11:28

it feels like you've got all your eggs in

11:30

one basket as the saying goes

11:32

because really everything we have is here.

11:35

We've got each other, we've got the

11:37

restaurant but that is everything

11:41

we've got isn't it? But then again it is

11:43

comforting because it is like well we're a team and

11:45

we're always going to make it work. We

11:48

won't go down without a fight. For

11:51

me it is more comforting and I

11:54

feel very safe. Honestly I feel

11:57

very safe but in without a perfect match the safest

11:59

place I've ever worked. Do

22:01

you think it's maybe good for business, being a

22:03

couple? It's a good story. Yeah,

22:06

I mean, yeah, definitely it's a good story.

22:08

Even though we always try to push the

22:11

restaurant to be the main story, we don't

22:13

want to be the main story. We just

22:15

want to be a complementary story to the

22:17

concept. Francisco Araya

22:19

and Fernando Guerrero-Ariano bringing a

22:21

taste of Chile to Singapore.

22:26

From Southeast Asia to North America.

22:29

I'm chaos, you're control. Yeah, I'm

22:31

very controlled about what I do

22:33

and I want to make sure

22:35

that the end is the same

22:37

as the start. This

22:40

is Rita Sodi, aka control,

22:42

and her wife and fellow

22:44

chef Jodie Williams, aka

22:47

chaos. But we

22:49

can finish each other's dish. Right,

22:51

I mean, Rita is, she

22:53

will weigh everything precise. She will

22:56

follow details. If it's four hours,

22:59

meat sauce, cooking with the lid on it,

23:01

she will know. And

23:03

she never varies from that. I can

23:05

barely do the same thing twice. I'm

23:09

always sort of pushing it and pushing

23:11

it. Okay, well, I can make that

23:13

better next time. And Rita control, she'll

23:15

pull me back from creating disasters in the

23:17

kitchen, you know, like, so

23:20

there's a ying and a

23:23

yang here. Exactly. Their story begins

23:25

16 years ago, when

23:27

Rita had just opened an Italian

23:29

restaurant in New York City, East

23:31

Sodi, and the news reached Jodie.

23:34

I had a group of friends saying, you've

23:36

got to go eat in this restaurant. You

23:38

really will, you'll love it. And another group

23:40

of friends saying, you've got to meet this

23:42

person. Have you met her? So

23:44

one evening, she ventured there. The

23:47

menu was written by hand and it was

23:50

spring and there were like five different asparagus

23:52

dishes on it, which nobody would do, you

23:54

know, and I loved it. And I had

23:56

a great meal. And I looked down at

23:58

the end of the bar and I said,

24:00

I wonder if that's the chef. And I

24:02

went down to introduce myself and, you

24:05

know, give her my compliments and everything. Jodi

24:08

and Rita became an item. Before long,

24:10

running restaurants just meters apart, dashing back

24:12

and forth to help each other out.

24:14

You just sort of jump in and

24:16

pick up a pan and go at

24:18

it or just start killing onions or

24:20

where do you want me to start?

24:22

And likewise, she would always do the

24:24

same for me. Or we're creating a,

24:26

you know, I'm making a new dish.

24:28

I'm like, come over and taste my

24:30

beef bourguignon, you know? Eventually,

24:33

the idea came to open a

24:35

restaurant together. They called it Via

24:37

Corrota. We saw this place,

24:40

it was out for

24:42

rent and was in Grove Street

24:44

between our place and we

24:47

look at each other and we say, what

24:49

about spend some time together? So let's open

24:51

a restaurant. We

24:54

had a running joke that, gee, if we want to

24:56

see more of each other, we should open a restaurant

24:59

together. At least we'd be in the same kitchen. And

25:02

Rita always gives this big smile

25:04

and she says, yeah, let's do it. Let's

25:06

do it. What could happen? We

25:08

would fail. Okay, we'll be fine. You

25:11

know what I mean? So we decided

25:13

to do it. Yeah. And what was

25:15

it like to actually execute this plan?

25:17

How straightforward was that given that you

25:19

were both established chefs in your

25:22

own right with your own ideas? Well,

25:25

I think it's a crazy process. It's

25:27

all done on the back of napkins

25:29

and scraps of paper and laying tape

25:31

on the floor. And there's

25:34

not a real lot of planning. No,

25:36

we didn't agree. We didn't plan. We

25:38

just did it. Yeah. I think, you

25:41

know, like there was never a moment

25:43

where here's all the plans, here's all

25:45

the menus. This is the idea. Oh,

25:49

that would be way too easy. Do you think

25:51

the fact that you're a couple enables you to

25:53

be a bit tougher with

25:55

one another? Yeah, I

25:57

think so. Yeah, I think that. We're

25:59

pretty honest with you. other. Yeah, I

26:01

think that is also the key of

26:03

the relationship, you know, there is nothing

26:07

behind anything. It's just on

26:09

the face. We really direct

26:11

relationship. Right.

26:13

And it is a safe space. I

26:16

mean, because we are a

26:18

couple and we are partners and we're

26:20

co-chefs and we're business owners, this

26:23

is a life. You know,

26:25

it's not just business, it's

26:27

not just a relationship. This

26:29

is an entire full life

26:31

and it means a lot

26:35

and you have to take care of it.

26:37

To what extent do you allow yourselves to

26:40

take work home? Oh, we're so bad about

26:42

that. Yeah. No, you

26:44

know, no, it's a life. It's 110%, you

26:49

know, we're like dialed in.

26:51

Yeah, the only days with we

26:54

are trying don't read the mail or, you

26:57

know, don't talk about it's a Sunday. It's

27:01

inescapable. Who cooks on a Sunday?

27:03

I think

27:05

Jodie cooks the most. Yeah. Yeah.

27:09

Jodie, it looks like that might be a

27:11

bone of contention. Yeah, you

27:13

know, it's like I cook goofy

27:15

things. I try new things

27:17

all the time and I have some

27:19

wins and things

27:21

to continue to work on. But

27:23

she's very patient, you know.

27:25

Most of the time they're pretty good, you

27:27

know. Most of

27:29

the time. Yeah, most of the time. Yeah,

27:32

Rita never complains even in the kitchen or

27:35

anything. She's never going to complain.

27:38

If I make a mistake or I

27:40

blew it, we'll just get to solution

27:42

and fixing it. We don't really waste

27:45

time on how to do that or,

27:47

you know, I knew it. We

27:49

just go to, okay, put it

27:52

aside, do this and that. So. We've

27:55

interviewed another couple who opened their

27:57

restaurant together in their 20s. You

28:00

met mid-career. Do you think the prior

28:02

work and life experience that you've had

28:05

has helped you figure out how to

28:08

make a relationship in

28:10

the restaurant business work? Oh yeah, absolutely.

28:13

I mean, could you have done it in your 20s?

28:16

Oh no, no way. Absolutely no. I

28:18

was complete disaster in my 20s. I

28:21

started cooking in my late 20s

28:24

and I didn't have my first chef job until

28:26

I was 35. Rita

28:30

opened her first restaurant at what? How old were you? 45?

28:35

45. So, and this is

28:38

one of the most productive,

28:40

mature moments where you, I

28:42

believe we're at our strongest

28:46

and it's never too

28:48

late. So perhaps that

28:50

life and work experience has given you

28:53

a confidence that enables you to compromise?

28:57

Yeah, yeah, of course. And we

28:59

are at the point where we don't

29:01

even understand whether we compromise or not.

29:04

But there's a lot of things that

29:06

we will debate. It's usually like when

29:08

we can start buying tomatoes. Is

29:11

it too early for peaches? These

29:13

are just my notes. My thing is a

29:15

yes, yes, yes. It's July and Rita still

29:17

hasn't bought tomatoes. I'm like, come on, we

29:19

got to buy tomatoes. Let's go. The season's

29:22

here. So we are going to compromise when

29:24

we say, you know, no, it's too early.

29:26

Okay, let's go in the middle, right? We

29:29

do a lot of back and forth on

29:31

a lot of little, little nitty gritty kind

29:33

of things, you know, but

29:37

I'm relentless. And

29:41

Rita's patient. So we

29:43

usually get the tomatoes. Yeah,

29:46

we usually get the tomatoes a little bit too early.

29:50

Rita Sodi and Jodie Williams, who today run five

29:52

restaurants and bars together in New York. And if

29:55

you're thinking, hmm, maybe I should

29:57

go into business. with

30:00

my partner. I've asked all three couples

30:02

for their words of advice. You

30:05

have to be sure that it's really what you

30:07

want because I don't think it's for everybody and

30:09

I don't think it's for every couple. I think

30:13

it's sink or swim. This

30:15

is not really a secret recipe. It

30:18

really is a test of your character. And

30:21

your relationship? And your relationship.

30:24

We're in a business together is

30:26

not easy. And you have

30:28

to really love what you do as well. It

30:31

can be easy but it can be very,

30:33

very difficult. Do

30:36

it. Learn

30:39

how to separate your professional life from

30:41

your personal life. That's the most important

30:44

thing if you want to work together. Learn

30:46

how to respect your house and

30:48

learn how to respect your job and

30:51

not mix it. Have

30:53

the same values. Are you doing

30:56

this for the same reason? Value

30:59

value is key to succeed

31:02

as a couple. Yeah,

31:04

and you can always try. Nothing's

31:06

written in stone. Just try and

31:09

change your mind. It's life.

31:12

See what happens. What kind of advice is that?

31:17

Our thanks to all three couples. Do

31:19

you work in food with your partner or

31:21

someone else close to you and have advice

31:24

for making it work? Do please email thefoodchain

31:26

at bbc.co.uk. If

31:29

you enjoyed this, you might also like

31:31

to listen to the edition about Food

31:34

Double Acts featuring Ruthie Rogers talking about

31:36

Rose Gray, with whom she co-founded the

31:38

River Cafe in London, and Gennaro Cantaldo

31:41

on his friend, the Italian chef Antonio

31:43

Carluccio. From me and producer

31:45

Beatrice Pickup, thanks for listening and do

31:47

join us again next week. Thanks

31:55

for watching.

32:00

Hold up. What was

32:02

that? Boring. No flavor. That

32:04

was as bad as those leftovers you

32:06

ate all week. Kiki Palmer here,

32:08

and it's time to say hello to something fresh

32:10

and guilt-free. HelloFresh.

32:12

Jazz up dinner with pecan, crusted chicken,

32:15

or garlic butter shrimp scampi. Now

32:17

that's music to my mouth. HelloFresh.

32:21

Let's get this dinner party started. Discover

32:23

all the delicious possibilities at

32:25

hellofresh.com. hellofresh.com. Finance

32:29

leaders, do your arms hurt? It's hard

32:31

getting pulled in two different directions every

32:33

day. Somehow you're supposed to cut

32:35

costs and drive growth. Not easy. But it

32:38

can be if you use Brex. Brex

32:40

is the only corporate card and AI-powered

32:43

spend platform that lets you control spend

32:45

before it happens. Brex also automates busy

32:47

work and gives you real-time visibility, so

32:49

you have more time for strategic work.

32:51

Ready to save and grow? Get Brex,

32:54

the platform that helps you make every

32:56

dollar count. Visit brex.com slash grow.