0:00

Pass or smash, fake it till you make it

0:02

mentality. Pass. There's a lot of

0:04

value in it, but I think it's misunderstood.

0:06

When you're faking it till you make it,

0:08

there's a level of manipulation going on. I

0:10

mean, there's a lot of lying that comes

0:12

along with it. Have conviction that you're gonna

0:14

make it and act as if. That's

0:17

very different than fake it till you make it.

0:21

This is the Gary Vee

0:23

Audio experience. Today

0:25

there are more founder-led

0:27

personal brands than ever. How can,

0:30

especially for this, in this case,

0:32

women protect themselves and their personal

0:34

brand? Oh,

0:36

there's so much to this. First of all, thank you for having

0:39

me on the show. Of course. And

0:41

congrats on everything. I

0:44

think you protect yourself by having a

0:46

strong mental foundation, right?

0:49

Like vulnerability of

0:53

protection, like growing, winning,

0:57

having things happen the way you want starts

0:59

at home. And at home, I don't

1:01

mean in your four walls, I mean in your

1:04

brain. You have

1:06

a sense of who you are. Are you strong? What's

1:09

your level of confidence versus your

1:11

insecurity? Are you a person that

1:13

likes to judge as escapism from your own pain?

1:15

Cause you judge your own self. So,

1:17

I think before we get into

1:20

any level of tactics, it starts upstairs.

1:23

And I feel like women entrepreneurs are

1:28

extremely strong at speaking about

1:30

vulnerability and speaking to topics that

1:32

are meaningful. I think men try to posture. They

1:36

struggle with that level. But I

1:38

think a lot of female entrepreneurs have a

1:40

headstart. I speak to so many female entrepreneurs

1:42

who will spend a lot of time

1:44

and energy explaining to me why men entrepreneurs have

1:46

it easier. But it's really

1:49

ironic because I believe that emotional

1:51

strength and emotional work is

1:53

really the game of how this all works in

1:55

the end. I think the

1:57

level of conversation on the female entrepreneur sector. tends

2:00

to skew better and higher

2:02

and the frequency of the conversations

2:04

are deeper and more thoughtful. And

2:07

I actually think that, you know, sometimes like for

2:09

some people they think that they're wasting too much time or energy

2:11

on that, but I think that's the actual work. And so what

2:13

I would say is a continuation of

2:16

path of like really feeling

2:18

confident, which speaks to

2:21

cutting out the cavities of insecurity. People

2:23

have to work on tuning out

2:25

those voices while equally respecting that they

2:27

may have value. Podcast,

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3:32

I can't wait to see you there. There's

3:34

a really fine balance of like taking in advice

3:36

but not making it like

3:39

gospel, right? Like for example,

3:42

I do this with negative comments. Negative

3:45

comments, I don't dismiss as trolls

3:47

or haters. I try

3:49

to take in, is there any truth to the observation

3:51

and try to take the good from it. I

3:54

can separate the venom that

3:56

it's delivered with often and

3:58

try to see if there's any truth. Same thing. I

4:00

do with positive, like when people put

4:02

a goat emoji, do I think I'm the greatest of

4:04

all time? I don't. I aspire to, but I

4:07

don't like take it in and I try

4:09

to like preserve my humility the same way

4:12

that I try to preserve my sanity and

4:14

confidence and joy

4:16

and lack of anxiety. And so, you

4:19

know, I think you have to take in

4:21

what those voices are saying, but you can't

4:23

fully internalize them. You have to decide if

4:25

you agree or disagree, but if you agree, you act on

4:27

them. And if you don't agree, you articulate to why

4:29

you don't. But you don't do it like

4:32

in an abrupt way. Hey, I built

4:34

this before you were here. I don't need your

4:37

shit. I just needed your money. Like you

4:39

got people have to find ways to

4:41

communicate with class. We've gotten into this

4:43

place in society where we communicate so

4:45

poorly because politicians have showed us the

4:47

way and now it's trickled

4:50

into day to day. You know,

4:52

I tell people to really find a way

4:54

to communicate with class. I

4:57

love that, thank you. I

4:59

always say just live an integrous life.

5:03

So no matter what you do. Yeah, that's right. Be as nice

5:05

as you can. Like why not?

5:07

Like explain to me why not? Because they

5:10

hurt feelings. Well, guess what? If they

5:12

hurt your feelings, they're probably hurting. Maybe you

5:14

can deploy some compassion or empathy like the wine

5:16

you're drinking. Yeah, I was just gonna say, why not? Why

5:19

not? You know, why not

5:21

deploy some empathy? And

5:23

so, I think that

5:25

people need to really get within their

5:27

head and figure this stuff out. Keep going. How

5:30

important is brand versus marketing

5:32

and sales? Because you really put an

5:35

emphasis on brand and you share a

5:37

lot too that the larger companies aren't

5:40

really realizing the importance of brand. Well,

5:43

they actually do. And actually the biggest companies

5:45

in the world understand the value of brand

5:47

probably more than influencers and

5:49

creators. They're just, they don't understand

5:51

where brand is being built. They think

5:53

commercials and billboards and

5:55

print ads and banner ads on

5:58

websites and pre-roll. intrusion

6:00

ads on digital and dorky

6:02

posts on social is building brand.

6:04

And my point is perfect social or

6:07

best social or strategic social is where

6:09

brand is being built. And I think

6:11

to your point, a

6:13

lot of people in this community of creators

6:15

and influencers, they're so transactional. Like

6:17

everything is to selfish needs.

6:19

How many followers can I get? How many likes

6:22

am I getting? How much money can I

6:24

get from this brand deal? And so it's

6:26

very sales oriented. The reality is both matter.

6:29

Like if you build unlimited brand, but

6:31

you don't know how to close that equity

6:33

into a sale, well, you're gonna go out of

6:36

business. But if you're just a

6:38

sales person and you're not building brand, they're

6:40

gonna move on to the next creator, to

6:42

the next person, to the next

6:45

brand. And so they both matter

6:47

a lot, but I think that sales

6:49

is just people that aren't

6:51

great at brand. And what I mean by that

6:53

is, when I look at

6:55

the best personalities,

6:58

businesses, Ryan Reynolds

7:00

doesn't sell. He's brand

7:02

and you just like, I

7:04

just wanted Mint Mobile. I'm like, I've been

7:06

on Verizon a hundred years. I'm like, how

7:09

am I? Like when Kevin Hart makes a

7:11

funny video, and he's got his

7:13

tequila in it, like I just wanna support him. He's

7:16

not sending me an email saying, buy a

7:18

case of my tequila. And

7:21

so I think when you build brand, it's

7:23

special. Recently shared

7:25

an analogy, or

7:27

it goes either in your book or

7:30

one of your podcast episodes, but it was analogy

7:32

of building a bigger building versus tearing other buildings

7:34

down. Can you share that just for our listeners?

7:38

Did you like this one? Yes. I'm

7:40

obsessed with this one. This has been one that

7:42

I've been with since I was a teenager. It's

7:44

a very old adage, which

7:47

is there's two ways to

7:49

build the biggest building in town. One, build

7:51

the biggest building in town. You were just that

7:54

talented. You were just that capable. You've put in that

7:56

work. Two, tear

7:58

down everybody else's building. your

8:00

building seems bigger, even though it might not be

8:02

that big. I believe that

8:04

we have now gone into the phase in

8:06

our society of tearing everyone's building down the

8:08

amount of finger pointing, the amount of judgment.

8:11

And so people have no capacity for respecting

8:13

other people's opinions or thoughts

8:16

or success. I

8:18

am thrilled when other entrepreneurs

8:21

are doing their thing. I just brought up

8:23

two of them in this analogy, two actors who

8:25

I think are real. When I think about The

8:27

Rock or Ryan

8:31

Reynolds or Kevin

8:33

Hart or Reese Witherspoon or Jessica Alba,

8:36

these are people have transitioned from

8:38

fame to operating entrepreneurs,

8:41

building humongous things. To

8:43

me, I have great joy in

8:45

watching other people win. Doing this

8:47

podcast is a way for me

8:50

to accelerate your winning. Thank you. What

8:53

do you think all those people have in common that you see in

8:55

them? Those people I

8:58

just mentioned just happen to be entrepreneurial

9:00

and ridiculously hardworking. The demonization

9:02

of hard work is

9:05

a very dangerous fine line. Mental

9:07

health issues that you

9:09

get from overworking or caring only about

9:11

money is a tremendous topic. And

9:13

it's exactly right. But

9:15

demonizing work ethic as

9:18

not one of the required things to

9:20

build something meaningful is laughable and delusional.

9:23

You probably know this. There's an enormous amount

9:25

of your listeners right now. Who just love the work. When

9:28

you love your work, it's play. So finding

9:30

the balance. But I think the thing that

9:33

I see in people that tear

9:35

down building is they're unhappy with themselves. Thus,

9:37

they're just trying to make everybody else. Misery

9:39

loves company. Or

9:41

they just don't know. They know that they don't

9:44

have the talent to just build on their own

9:46

merit. And they know that they

9:48

can bully or tear down or out

9:50

politicize people. When I say

9:52

out politicize, I don't mean politics. I mean, in business world, for

9:55

example, people will say, well, if you work with

9:57

that other person, you're not going to work with me. they're

10:00

giving them more business. And that's because they're worried

10:02

about this upstart gal in town doing a thing.

10:04

Like, you know, and so like, I think

10:06

that's horrible. I don't want to lose to

10:08

my competitors, but I

10:10

respect my competitors in my businesses if

10:12

they're able to accomplish in our game

10:15

and I admire it and I cheer

10:17

for it. And I also don't

10:19

think that anyone is taking away from me. I

10:21

don't think anyone's success is taking

10:23

happiness out of my pocket, money

10:26

out of my pocket, growth out of my

10:28

pocket. The world is abundant. There's

10:30

enough for everyone at scale. And

10:33

I just think that way too many people

10:35

are insecure out there and it's manifesting in

10:38

poor behavior, which is really unfortunate because they

10:41

might be tricking a lot of people, but

10:43

they're not tricking the 2% that

10:46

are most emotionally intelligent on earth. So when I see

10:48

people that seemingly look like

10:50

they're doing well and they're winning, I

10:53

feel bad for them. Yeah, me

10:56

too. And so that's

10:59

part of the Live Beautifully podcast, how to live more

11:01

beautifully. Okay, I know we

11:03

don't have that much more time left, but I would love for you to

11:05

share the 12 and a half ingredients to

11:07

success so that way someone can go read

11:09

your book because I really think that these

11:12

words, obviously you had a lot of intent

11:14

behind them. If you can remember them. I

11:16

remember that. Let me go a different way though. Like

11:18

everybody can go to Amazon and see those words

11:21

on the cover and we could talk

11:23

about accountability or patience or curiosity, which

11:25

I think is a weird one and you're right, I had a

11:27

lot of intent or me being

11:29

vulnerable and talking about candor being very important,

11:31

but me struggling. I

11:34

actually wanna go a different way because I think this will

11:36

bring even more value to your audience. When

11:38

you see those words, which

11:40

one hit you as like, fuck? You

11:43

know, like my intent with the book, it's 13 traits. I

11:46

called it 12 and a half, cause I talk about

11:48

in the book, hey, candor has been my kryptonite. I

11:51

don't like telling people I love, which are my employees

11:53

that they're bad or that I'm gonna fire them. It's

11:55

the worst feeling on earth. And it's really fucked up

11:57

a lot of things in my life. That's just the

11:59

truth. because if you can't be candorous, you

12:01

really open up yourself to being full of

12:03

shit and people don't like full of shit, right?

12:06

And so I'm just curious when

12:08

you saw those words, what kind of hit

12:10

you? I've always

12:13

related to you when it has to do with

12:16

having candor and I didn't even know what that word

12:18

really was. And now

12:20

I've explored how that has

12:22

been difficult for me as an entrepreneur. I'm a

12:24

people pleaser. And so even if it's

12:27

employees, I just want everyone to be happy and to

12:29

like me and to love their

12:31

job, but giving feedback has always been, even when I

12:33

would do reviews, I'd actually have people review themselves. I'm

12:35

like on a scale of one to 10, how punctual

12:37

are you? But

12:40

I also think you're doing a disservice. Like you

12:42

say, it was like as a leader, we owe

12:44

it to them to give them feedback. That's really

12:46

kind. It's also not gonna work.

12:48

Like what's gonna happen is anybody who's

12:50

functionally capable, you're eventually gonna fire them. And you

12:52

went from being nice. I mean, I used to

12:54

think I was being nice. I was like, this

12:56

person stinks at Wine Library. This person

12:59

stinks at VaynerMedia. I'm letting them

13:01

stay here for another year in this beautiful atmosphere.

13:03

And I'm nice and like, I'm doing a

13:06

mitzvah. I'm like the greatest guy ever. And then you

13:08

have to fire them. And they're like, you're a piece

13:10

of shit. You made me think I was great the

13:12

whole time. Nobody ever gave me any negative feedback. What

13:14

the fuck? This came out of nowhere. And I was

13:17

like, man, this is really not working. Like I'm

13:19

over here thinking I'm being Santa Claus and these

13:21

people are like, when I review in my

13:24

lifetime, the dozens

13:26

and dozens of people versus

13:28

the thousands and thousands of people who

13:30

adore me, the dozens and dozens of people who

13:33

have a bad taste in their mouth at working at Wine

13:35

Library or VaynerMedia or anything of that nature. I'm like, every

13:38

one of them was, everyone, all of them,

13:40

all of them were the same story.

13:43

They weren't up to my standards subjectively. They

13:45

were just my subjective standards. I

13:48

was unable to communicate to them. Their exit

13:50

in the company was super sloppy because I actually had

13:52

a lot. And the more I loved them, the sloppier

13:54

it was. Yeah, yeah. I

13:56

didn't care about them. So once

13:59

I'm being branded, to myself as kind

14:01

candor. I

14:03

had a breakfast yesterday and I gave kind candor

14:05

and it's uncomfortable still to me. I went from

14:08

a one out of 10 to a four out

14:10

of 10, maybe a five out of

14:12

10. I've seen huge dividends, but still it's

14:14

like pulling teeth for me to be

14:16

like, you're late or you're not that

14:19

sharp. Or. It's just cause you care.

14:21

All right, we only have a couple of minutes left. I wanna do

14:24

this. So we're doing pass or smash, which I know that you wanna

14:26

give context on all of them. Pass

14:28

or smash, chat GPT. Smash.

14:32

Focus groups of a hundred people. Smash.

14:35

Twitter. Smash. Lemonade.

14:39

Double smash, that's how I learned business. Ooh.

14:43

What are you talking about, Lemonade the app? Yeah.

14:46

Well, I'm sorry, I haven't dug super.

14:48

Oh, Lemonade. You did start

14:50

selling Lemonade early. Lemonade,

14:52

I haven't gotten deep on it. I'm

14:55

obviously very aware, that

14:57

one I just have to say neutral cause I haven't tasted

14:59

it yet. Fair. Using

15:02

trends. Smash. Fake

15:05

it till you make it mentality. Pass.

15:08

Let me double click on that. There's

15:12

a lot of value in it, but

15:15

I think it's misunderstood. When

15:18

you're faking it till you make it, there's

15:20

a level of manipulation going on. Let me

15:22

wear the suit. Let me make up a, I

15:24

mean, there's a lot of lying. Yeah.

15:27

That comes along with it. So I

15:29

think fake it till you make it would

15:32

be a little bit different. Have conviction

15:34

that you're gonna make it and

15:36

act as if. I like that.

15:39

Very different than fake it till you make it,

15:41

which comes with a lot of baggage of like

15:43

sleazy behavior that actually

15:45

can become very dangerous

15:48

because you become used to it. And

15:50

then when you make it, some of those

15:52

things that got you there with the faking it, actually

15:55

become your scarlet letter and your vulnerability

15:58

of losing it. So

16:00

fake it to you, make it, may lead to you losing it,

16:04

have conviction that you're going to make it

16:06

and act as if becomes a

16:08

healthier version of it. I like

16:10

that. Standing desks. I'm

16:14

a little bit neutral on that, meaning,

16:17

I'm actually gonna say smash because my back is killing

16:19

me right now and I think corporate is sitting

16:21

like an idiot through all of

16:23

COVID. So let me take that back. I'm gonna

16:25

go with smash. Snooze button.

16:29

Smash, I fucking use it. I know a lot of people are

16:31

like, Gary Vee, I fucking need that.

16:33

I use it today for 10 minutes. Boxed

16:36

wine. Pass,

16:38

box wine is horrible. I know people are

16:40

trying to say, it's getting better.

16:43

It is, but let me

16:45

give a huge thing for everybody on here. The

16:48

level of wine that you can

16:50

buy between 12 and $20 a

16:52

bottle is staggeringly high. And

16:54

the stuff you're getting in a box wine, though much cheaper,

16:57

because obviously that goes down to two, three, four bucks a

16:59

bottle. Like fuck, wine

17:01

is such an epic thing. Like if

17:03

you just go to 12 bucks, the whole

17:05

world opens up. And

17:08

I think people should make that investment if they're drinking wine. Drink

17:10

water if you wanna drink $40 wine. Losing.

17:17

Smash. I think falling in love with

17:19

micro losing is what makes you the

17:21

ultimate winner. I think people

17:23

fear losing in front of others. I'm

17:25

the complete other way. I like losing in front of

17:28

others. My whole childhood, I would cry the second

17:30

I would lose in front of others. I

17:32

like it. I think learning how to lose is

17:35

the fucking foundation. I think demonizing

17:37

losing to kids, eight place trophies,

17:39

keeping them away from it, fighting

17:41

with teachers to get a higher grade, yelling at

17:43

coaches, all that fucked everybody up.

17:46

Totally. All right, a few more private

17:48

jets. Private

17:51

jets, I would say pass for

17:53

99% who use it. To

17:57

flex and make people feel worse and

17:59

try to. to feel like somebody smashed

18:02

for the 1% that their

18:04

time is so valuable now, that

18:06

it's actually thoughtful and strategic to

18:08

use a private flight because

18:11

wasting the extra three hours

18:13

commercially is like ROI negative

18:15

for them. Hey, the other jets,

18:18

the New York ones. I'll

18:20

smash the living shit out of that. That is my passion.

18:23

It's my escapism. It's the

18:25

one place where I actually act silly and not

18:27

logical. I love it. Healthy for

18:29

me, it's a balance to my real life. It's

18:32

like going to church every Sunday for three hours. I

18:34

love it. All right, live

18:36

beautifully podcast. I'm

18:39

gonna say now that I've graced the presence

18:41

of, I'm gonna go with smash. I'm sure

18:43

you. Even

18:47

in the way that you're interviewing me right now, I

18:49

can sense the importance of it for

18:51

you. Thank you. One

18:54

of the reasons I continue to do podcasts is

18:58

because I know people can leverage me being a

19:00

guest to get four guests. And it's

19:02

like one of the great joys for me. And

19:06

so I hope you get some

19:08

more guests that you want based on me being on

19:10

the show. No, I just, I know

19:12

you gotta go. Thank you so much for absolutely

19:15

just saying yes for everything for always

19:17

putting yourself out there. And I've looked

19:20

up to you for years. I met

19:22

you years ago at the pop gala

19:25

and you did a little video for my

19:27

birthday with me. So it was really cool.

19:29

And I'm giving this a go and-

19:32

Howdy you. You're, thank you. And I

19:34

hope that I can even, anyone

19:36

that doesn't know who you are, which I doubt it, but

19:39

if they don't then- By the way,

19:41

that's, you know, the selfless part is, I know I'm

19:43

at that point of my career where I'm, it's like rap.

19:45

It's like, I'm giving a feature to someone and I know

19:47

that I can put them on. On the flip

19:49

side, to your point, if four people, and

19:51

there's plenty more than four, are listening

19:53

right now that I've never heard of me, and

19:56

they hear, you know, I'm aware that I say things that

19:58

are a little bit different than the masses. And

20:01

that's really exciting to me. And that comes from

20:03

great mothering and what my mom did for me.

20:06

I feel like somebody heard something. I know somebody

20:08

just heard something that has never heard of me.

20:11

And by the way, maybe has heard of

20:13

me and didn't, you know this, some people

20:15

don't like me because I'm aggressive, I'm competitive,

20:17

I curse, but maybe in this

20:20

context, they're like, wait a minute. And so like,

20:22

that's very exciting for me as well.

20:24

And so thank you for having me on. I curse

20:26

too, because I grew up outside of Boston

20:28

and I'm sure so, already wicked fucking awesome.

20:32

Thank you, bye, thanks.