0:06

Novel.

0:12

I read a lot of romance novels.

0:15

People have a tendency to make fun of them, mostly

0:17

because it's a genre largely targeted

0:20

towards and written by women. Romance

0:23

novels are full of hope, humor,

0:26

and yes, sometimes there's

0:28

really steamy sex. You

0:30

like dragons and elves. You want

0:32

to know what it looks like when a whole hockey

0:34

team finds love. Maybe

0:37

you'd like a fictionalized version of an

0:39

amish courtship, or

0:41

what would it look like for a rabbi to fall

0:43

for a former sex worker. Romance

0:46

has it all, Pumpkin. There's

0:49

even a world where Italian

0:51

gangsters learn there's more

0:53

to life than money and violence.

0:56

I'd actually never read any mafia romances

0:58

before I came across you his story, so

1:01

I figured i'd pick up a few for

1:03

research purposes. Of course, I

1:06

asked my Twitter followers what they liked

1:08

about mafia stories and got a variety

1:10

of answers. People are fascinated

1:13

by the strong sense of loyalty, the

1:16

found family narratives, and

1:18

the protectiveness, plus the

1:20

secretive nature of the community. And

1:23

there's much to be said about size stepping

1:25

government overreach. Everybody

1:27

loves sticking it to the man. Add

1:29

in the mysts about Italian men, their

1:31

appreciation for good food, good

1:34

living, and good loving, and

1:36

well, it can be hard to resist

1:38

a good mob romance. A

1:40

lot of these images that feed into the lore

1:42

of gangsters were shaped by Eunice

1:45

and Dewey's conviction of Lucky Luciano.

1:48

Okay, a brief synopsis

1:51

of America's fascination with the Italian

1:54

mafia.

1:54

If I may.

1:58

In the nineteen thirties, when

2:00

the Lucky Luciano trial first

2:02

started to hit the local papers,

2:05

life imitated art and aught

2:07

imitated life.

2:08

In those days.

2:09

Until the trial of Lucky there may

2:12

have been rising public panic about the

2:14

seeping influence of crime and corruption on

2:16

American life, but the gangsters

2:18

themselves.

2:19

American people started to pick

2:21

up sympathy for these guys.

2:24

You've got this crazy dichotomy

2:27

between people fascinated

2:30

with the mob and people who hated

2:32

and feared the mob. For very

2:35

good reason.

2:37

We can thank Hollywood for that.

2:39

Those early gangster movies were

2:41

based on real life crime figures.

2:45

In the early thirties, Hollywood

2:47

is turning out film after film about

2:49

anti hero gangsters. Whether it's

2:51

Edward g Robinson playing Rico in the nineteen

2:53

thirty one movie Little.

2:54

Caesar Allison Rico.

2:56

I'm gonna talk to you, but you're not gonna hear a

2:59

word I say.

3:00

That would have been al Capone.

3:02

This is inside dope, and if it gets out,

3:04

it'll be just too bad for somebody.

3:06

Or Humphrey Bogart as Duke Manty

3:09

in The Petrified Forest, released

3:11

in nineteen thirty six.

3:12

If you'll think I was kitten when I said I'd

3:15

be glad to knock you up.

3:18

People all love The Petrified

3:20

Forest because that's Dilinger. You

3:23

know, Bogi really nailed

3:25

it.

3:26

You're all right, Paly, I got good ideas.

3:30

I'll try that picture soos that don't hurt.

3:32

By the early thirties, it di was kissed

3:35

that people wanted to see the gangsters.

3:42

The government, unsurprisingly

3:44

doesn't like this.

3:46

The gangster is being seen as the hero. We've

3:48

got to stop that. We've got to stop that.

3:50

So the government starts promoting their own style

3:52

of hero in films.

3:54

Now we're going to make movies about g men,

3:57

you know, government men, the FBI agents.

4:00

I don't think the public ever really bought that.

4:02

After all, having the law as Heroes

4:05

doesn't exactly fit with most people's experiences.

4:08

The general attitude towards criminality

4:11

come nineteen thirty three as well. The

4:13

gangsters in fact that in many ways they're better than

4:15

the police. At least they're not being paid by

4:17

the state. They're not taking money and being

4:19

paid by the state, so they're cleaner than that.

4:22

Then there's Dewey, with his investigation

4:24

into the Mob. This

4:29

mustachioled crusader works

4:32

hard to frame Dutch Schultz and then Lucky

4:34

Luciano as public enemy

4:36

number one. Dewey

4:38

does start to have some success here changing

4:41

public attitudes. He begins using

4:43

radio broadcasts and newspaper headlines,

4:46

and the hype of Lucky's trial helps

4:48

chase away any lingering doubts

4:50

the public may have about how bad

4:52

the Mob is. By the

4:55

time of the guilty verdict, the legend

4:57

of Lucky Luciano and his downfall

4:59

is being broadcast triumphantly

5:01

across America. The

5:04

gangster who revolutionized the mob has

5:06

been taken down the boss

5:09

of bosses laid Low, the

5:11

original godfather. But

5:16

even as Lucky is led away from that courtroom

5:19

in handcuffs, people

5:21

are already starting as to question the lines

5:23

between the truth and fiction.

5:26

Lucky Luciano, who is

5:28

this guy? Who was he

5:31

for real?

5:37

When it comes to unicon Dewey's prized

5:39

mob conviction? Is

5:41

it possible the whole

5:43

story of Lucky is a fraud?

5:49

From the teams at iHeartRadio and novel

5:52

I'm Nicole Perkins and this

5:54

is the Godmother, Episode

6:20

seven Disorganized

6:23

Crime. On

6:31

June eighteenth, nineteen thirty six, twelve

6:34

days after Lucky Luciano was found

6:36

guilty on charges of compulsory

6:38

prostitution, he returns to court

6:41

for sentencing Dewey,

6:43

Lucky, and the other co defendants pushed

6:46

past the crowds and step into the Manhattan

6:49

courtroom.

6:52

There they all stand before Judge

6:54

McCook, a judge you might

6:56

remember who had been specially appointed

6:59

to take on organis crime.

7:01

They were set on putting these

7:03

guys away for as long as they could,

7:05

particularly Luciano.

7:08

A few weeks ago, Lucky had been

7:10

all arrogance and swagger as he took

7:13

to the stand in that same courtroom.

7:15

But if he'd been surprised by the

7:18

jury's eventual guilty verdict, it

7:20

was nothing compared to

7:22

his slack jaw shock. As Judge

7:25

McCook reads his sentence aloud

7:27

to the courtroom.

7:29

Holy Toledo for prostitution, you're

7:31

giving me a life sentence.

7:36

Lucky Luciano took the harshest

7:38

term from Judge McCook.

7:41

Thirty to fifty years in prison. It was a life sentence.

7:47

Once all sentences have been handed out,

7:50

Lucky and the other defendants are taken

7:52

away for processing.

7:54

It was quickly determined they

7:56

needed to be split up and sent

7:58

to different prisons so

8:00

that they couldn't reorganize

8:02

this sex trafficking gang.

8:05

Lucky heads upstate to a prison

8:07

on the Canadian border, up the river.

8:09

As they say, he wasn't taken down

8:11

by taxes like al Capone

8:14

or Waxi Garden. He wasn't

8:16

shot in the head by arrival

8:18

like Dutch Schalt. He was brought down

8:21

by a bunch of two bit hores.

8:24

Most men in the underworld insisted

8:27

it could not be true.

8:30

In the end, it's the women who

8:32

bring Lucky low. Lucky

8:34

might be down, but he and

8:37

his team of expensive lawyers

8:39

are far from done

8:41

because, let's face it, the

8:44

prosecution's case hadn't exactly

8:47

been watertight.

8:48

At best, questionable, if not don't

8:50

right illegal.

8:51

So as that summer of nineteen thirty six

8:53

passes, Lucky's team starts

8:55

to work on their appeal in an attempt

8:58

to swiftly free Lucky from his

9:00

new home up the river. And

9:02

while they're working on that, what

9:05

is Eunice Carter doing what she

9:07

does?

9:07

After Luciano's trial, Thomas

9:10

Dewey's team continues to investigate

9:12

organized crime.

9:18

She and Dewey are back in their office

9:20

on the Woolworth Building's fourteenth floor.

9:23

She was a relative rookie when she joined Dewey's

9:25

investigation, But Eunice Harbor's

9:28

ambitions of becoming a judge one day

9:30

It's a lofty goal on any scale,

9:33

let alone for a black woman in the

9:36

footheels of a vast mountain of systemic

9:38

racism and sexism in America. But

9:41

I wouldn't be surprised if Eunice thought

9:43

why not? Her career as a prosecutor

9:46

was off to the best possible start with a high

9:48

profile Lucky conviction. It's

9:51

easy to imagine Unice back in her office

9:53

desk, light burning her eyes as

9:56

she goes back over every piece

9:58

of evidence in preparation for Lucky so appeal.

10:01

She has to know everything will be called

10:03

into question. It was her original

10:06

work that got the conviction in the first place.

10:09

She may not have received kudos in public,

10:11

but if Lucky won his appeal, the

10:14

prosecution's loss will definitely

10:16

have her name all over it. By

10:20

nineteen thirty seven, Lucky's lawyers

10:23

think a do over might be imminent. There

10:25

was one obvious weakness in his original

10:28

conviction.

10:29

The witnesses the Underworld

10:31

had a strong self interest in

10:33

pressing the narrative that these women

10:36

were unreliable witnesses.

10:38

It wasn't just what the witnesses had said

10:40

on the stand, it's the way Eunice

10:42

and Dewey had coaxed that testimony out

10:44

of them in the first place.

10:46

So they were effectively held against their

10:48

will in communicado unlesson until they

10:50

cooperate.

10:54

Lucky and his team are well aware

10:56

of just how shady the coercion of testimonies

10:59

had been from the witnesses. In

11:01

fact, most of America is becoming

11:03

aware. The public has

11:06

been reading a slow trickle of allegations

11:08

that had found their way into the newspapers.

11:11

Some of the witnesses who had cooperated with the

11:14

prosecution are now talking to reporters

11:16

about their experiences. I

11:18

wonder if Dewey's composure cracks

11:20

away from the courthouse as he reads the

11:23

newspaper over his breakfast each morning.

11:25

Maybe he worries his mustache into disarray,

11:28

wondering who could be leaking all

11:30

of this information. Readers

11:33

aren't just learning about brutal coercion.

11:35

Eunice and Dewey may have turned the bad

11:38

cop dial up a little too high,

11:40

but they'd also been using the good

11:42

cop routine.

11:44

It is certainly true that

11:46

the ones who were willing to

11:49

talk were given special treatment. They

11:51

didn't have to stay necessarily in the jails. In

11:53

some cases, they were put into secret apartments.

11:56

Dewey's assistant prosecutors was

11:58

taking the girls out the bar and getting drunk with

12:00

them.

12:01

I'm pretty sure Unis wasn't the assistant prosecutor

12:03

taking the girls out, but who knows.

12:07

The idea of whining and dining the ones

12:09

who were released from jail was fairly

12:11

outrageous.

12:12

And the newspaper reports are now alleging

12:14

that this coaxing of the witnesses didn't stop

12:16

with simple nights out on the town. Apparently,

12:19

certain promises were made to the witnesses

12:21

about rewards After a positive

12:24

conviction, several.

12:25

Of them received emoluments

12:27

that were highly unusual. Two of

12:29

the women were sent on a cruise around the

12:31

world, paid for by doing as prosecutors.

12:41

When the trial began, Judge McCook

12:43

reminded the jurors of the sex workers humanity,

12:46

But maybe he should have delivered that message

12:48

to the prosecution as well. These

12:50

witnesses had been exploited at every

12:53

turn by their customers, the

12:55

mob, the prosecution, the

12:57

defense, and now the press.

13:00

Yes, everyone wants these

13:02

little birdies to sing for their supper, with promises

13:04

of gilded cages for protection, but

13:07

there's no real safety after you read

13:09

out the mob is there. The

13:12

good guys want you to be grateful as

13:14

if they saved you. The bad guys

13:16

want you punished, and the press

13:18

wants you to keep singing. But

13:20

all those gilded cages flake

13:23

and rust, So which one do you choose.

13:26

There's no way to be truly free, is there.

13:35

Dewey and his team are about to learn the hard

13:37

way that some of their key witnesses

13:40

are falling back into the hands of

13:42

the mob. Koki

14:00

Flow was one of the prosecution's key witnesses.

14:03

You remember Koki, She was going

14:05

through detox on the stand. Koch's

14:08

testimony, like nearly all the witnesses,

14:11

had put her life in great danger. No

14:13

one likes a snitch, especially

14:16

if they're pointing fingers at the boss of

14:18

bosses. But if Dewey was

14:20

worried about the safety of Kochi or

14:22

any of the rest of the women, he didn't

14:24

show signs of it, at least

14:27

not in his media briefings.

14:29

His press releases afterwards

14:32

were more of a justification

14:35

of what had been done during

14:37

the trial. He was very mute

14:40

on what steps were being taken

14:42

to protect the women.

14:43

After the trial, when Lucky is

14:46

convicted, Cokey and Millie

14:48

Harris, one of the other trial witnesses,

14:50

understandably decide to get the hell out

14:53

of Dodge. They

14:57

flee upstate to Rochester, New York,

14:59

and whole up in a cheap hotel. Breathing

15:02

fresh air and looking

15:04

over their shoulders.

15:06

They began writing these stories that

15:08

they were hired to write for

15:10

Liberty Magazine.

15:14

They were offered the magazine deal in exchange

15:16

for their life stories.

15:18

A series of stories was called Underworld Nights.

15:22

Liberty Magazine is a popular magazine

15:24

that features stories from people of all

15:26

walks of life, including celebrities,

15:29

politicians, and former

15:32

sex workers turned prosecution witnesses.

15:36

The series of articles is published.

15:38

Once they finished that and they were paid

15:41

for that, they couldn't go back

15:43

to New York to their old lives, so

15:45

they decided to go on a road trip and

15:47

they bought a car. They took the southern route

15:50

out to California,

15:53

California.

15:54

Because Flow and Millie

15:56

aren't just magazine writers now, in

15:59

the aftermath of the trial, they'd

16:02

also been offered a movie

16:04

deal.

16:06

They were under the impression that this film

16:08

deal was imminent and they wanted to be

16:10

in LA when the film deal went down.

16:16

The ladies don't end up in Tinseltown right

16:19

away. Maybe they want to make their money

16:21

stretch a little longer, or try

16:23

their hand at living straight. Because

16:25

before long they're living in Pomona,

16:28

just outside of LA and they're

16:30

getting short of cash because they've

16:32

spent their remaining money on a

16:35

kind of a strange new business.

16:37

They decided to open a gas station and Pomona,

16:40

of all things, and the two of them opened

16:42

a gas station and they ran

16:44

it for a while, and Koki

16:47

Flow is okay.

16:47

With that, But for Millie Harris. It's

16:50

not so simple. Hollywood

16:52

tends to take its time, and the

16:54

film about their lives still hasn't come

16:56

about yet. And the gas station

16:59

Pomona life isn't quite what she'd anticipated.

17:02

I'm sure it lacked all the glitz

17:04

and glam of New York City, and she's

17:06

a city girl. Plus

17:09

she's carrying an emotional weight.

17:14

She wanted to get back to New York.

17:16

She missed her husband, a husband she had

17:18

helped put away alongside.

17:20

Lucky who was in jail

17:22

and sing sing.

17:23

Maybe the guilt is eating away at her.

17:25

Because Millie Harris, without

17:27

Kochie Flow's knowledge, started communicating

17:30

with the lawyers for Luciana

17:32

who were handling his appeal, and an

17:34

investigator wanted to get her to recant

17:37

her testimony, which she did.

17:39

Eventually, both women returned

17:41

to New York together, back to

17:43

their old lives. Cochie

17:46

goes back on heroin, she

17:50

became.

17:50

An addict again. They both went into a sanitarium

17:53

to try to take the cure to get off

17:55

of heroin, and it was during that time that

17:58

they signed these affidavits recanting

18:00

their testimony.

18:01

Sometimes the fear of something new is

18:03

as much of a prison as anything else.

18:11

By March nineteen thirty seven, all

18:14

the prosecution's key witnesses have

18:17

officially turned. Eunice

18:20

and Dewey have lost the very foundation

18:22

of their case against Lucky, and

18:25

Lucky's defense is picking up steam.

18:27

All they have to do now is get these recanted

18:30

statements in front of an appeals court, get

18:33

the conviction overturned, and

18:35

then Lucky will be a

18:37

free man. Dewey is

18:39

clearly worried about this too.

18:42

He re enlists Eunice as his assistant

18:44

for an April nineteen thirty seven hearing for

18:47

a retrial. But Eunice,

18:49

Dewey, and Lucky haven't factored

18:51

in Judge McCook, that

18:54

belligerent, dedicated, anti

18:56

mob judge who had already come up

18:58

with his own plan for this turn and of events.

19:01

McCook did something that was highly unusual.

19:08

You see, back in June of nineteen

19:10

thirty six, when the Blue Ribbon

19:12

jury had dropped the bombshell of Lucky

19:14

Luciano's conviction, When

19:16

Dewey was striding triumphantly from the

19:18

courtroom and Eunice was well

19:22

not there as the drama played out, another

19:25

scene was also taking place, this

19:28

one behind closed doors.

19:33

Judge McCook, instead of taking a well

19:35

earned break after ruling over the trial of

19:37

the Century, is in his office

19:40

surrounded by sex workers.

19:43

After the verdict, and while the

19:45

motion for new trial was pending, he

19:48

called all seventy some women who were still

19:50

in jail into

19:52

his chambers.

19:54

These seventy women are the sex

19:56

workers and madams who have been witnesses

19:58

in the trial. And this isn't

20:01

some post trial party.

20:03

And without any notice to the defense or

20:05

without any defense lawyer being present, on

20:07

the record, with a prosecutor present,

20:10

he made them reassert their testimony.

20:13

All seventy women are told

20:15

to swear again that their

20:17

testimony was accurate.

20:19

Highly unusual to do that, outrageous. Actually,

20:22

the case really reeks a prosgatorial

20:24

misconduct, at least by today's standards.

20:31

These women don't have a cushy life at the

20:33

start of Lucky's trial, and we know it

20:35

took a lot to persuade them to testify

20:37

in the first place. Their lives leading

20:39

up to the trial had been severely uprooted,

20:42

and it probably didn't get any easier

20:44

after their names had been dragged through the press.

20:47

Plus, I imagine the mob

20:49

and their defense attorneys probably

20:52

weren't very sweet when it came time

20:54

to convince them to recant. It's

20:56

been one harrowing experience

20:58

after another, and now recanting

21:01

their testimony means nothing.

21:05

Lucky's defense team tries everything they

21:07

have to get the case invalidated. In

21:10

fact, by October tenth, nineteen

21:12

thirty eight, they've taken this all

21:14

the way to the highest court in the land.

21:17

The conviction was analyzed

21:20

by the appellate and

21:22

was denied for an appeal. They

21:25

denied a retrial, and they denied

21:27

a mistrial.

21:29

Thanks in part to Judge McCook's

21:31

early intervention.

21:33

Judge McCook, I'm not saying it was a crooked

21:35

trial. I'm just saying, in nineteen thirty

21:37

six, don't be a high profile criminal.

21:40

They put him away

21:44

in a manner that

21:46

today standards I

21:49

would hope wouldn't hold water.

21:51

It was not fair, but it

21:54

was considered fair for its time.

21:57

Dewey and Unice's triumph is

21:59

now set in stone. It

22:02

looks like Charles Lucky Luciano

22:04

is stuck in jail for the foreseeable

22:07

future, and as he languishes

22:09

there while his lawyers try

22:11

and fail to win an appeal, Eunice

22:14

and Dewey are already busy again. They

22:17

both continue their fight against organized

22:19

crime, although with very

22:22

different results. Unice

22:25

is now diligently prosecuting Numbers

22:27

runners in Harlem.

22:32

She winds up taking down some numbers

22:34

racket leaders in Harlem, which

22:37

is sort of met with mixed

22:40

feelings within the Harlem community.

22:43

Unice's success on this front isn't

22:45

met with blanket approval.

22:47

There's definitely a lot of people who

22:50

are very happy because they do not want

22:52

there to be criminal activity in their

22:54

community. But then also when you

22:56

look at the newspapers, not only

22:58

black owned papers in carl but across

23:00

the city, there's editorials that are

23:03

like, why is this woman targeting

23:05

her own community?

23:10

In order to get ahead in the predominantly white

23:12

world of law and justice, Unice

23:15

has to prosecute people who walk

23:17

the same streets as she does. It's

23:20

a fine line. I imagine

23:22

she has to prove to her white colleagues she

23:24

won't be biased in her work, while

23:26

also trying to prove her self trustworthy

23:28

to her Harlem community.

23:30

We talk frequently today

23:32

about the constraints on black womanhood

23:35

in the public eye. Right we know that

23:37

black women are subjected to more

23:40

critique, to more hate,

23:43

to a different set of standards than other

23:45

people. These pressure from within the

23:48

black community to

23:50

be a representative of the race would also

23:53

presumably have made Unice

23:55

Carter fuel pressure even when

23:57

she wasn't in white spaces.

24:04

During this time. Whenever Unice

24:06

Carter opens the paper and sees her name,

24:09

it's not with professional accolades or

24:12

recognition. In the society pages, she

24:15

reads judgments of her loyalty, her

24:17

character, and her image. The

24:21

newspapers that used to praise Unice

24:23

now judge her as harshly as any

24:25

jury. Meanwhile,

24:28

Dewey is receiving a much more positive

24:31

reception in the media.

24:50

By the end of nineteen thirty seven, Thomas

24:53

Dewey is no longer a special prosecutor.

24:56

He gets sworn in as one of five New

24:58

York District jorneys with

25:01

a power to decide who gets prosecuted.

25:04

The law was only ever a stepping

25:06

stone. He wants to break into politics.

25:10

The following year, he's on the move again. He

25:12

runs and loses a gubernatorial race,

25:15

but in nineteen forty two he runs again

25:18

and is successfully elected governor

25:20

of New York. His dreams

25:22

of political office have come true. His

25:26

rise is by any standards, meteoric.

25:29

He's ridden a wave of popularity that

25:32

followed Lucky's prosecution, far higher

25:34

and faster than many might have expected. How

25:37

did he manage it?

25:38

Not in cooperation with police and federal law

25:41

enforcement departments throughout.

25:42

The United States.

25:43

The only national program that brings you

25:45

authentic police case history gain

25:49

in Muster.

26:02

In the immediate aftermath of Lucky's

26:04

trial. Dewey is not shy

26:07

about trumpeting his performance.

26:09

He gave his reports on WNYC

26:12

radio. He also regularly gave

26:14

interviews. Dewey, by thirty

26:16

seven thirty eight was in the news.

26:18

He was the guy who put Lucciano away.

26:21

He was the gangbuster.

26:22

Gangbusters is a law versus

26:24

gangster fact based radio drama.

26:27

It first aired in nineteen thirty five.

26:29

It's a program that Dewey becomes associated

26:32

with by nineteen thirty six. In

26:34

nineteen thirty nine, a book called ninety

26:37

Times Guilty is published. It

26:39

tells a now familiar story of

26:42

Lucky Luciano as a shadowy

26:44

mafia figure pulling the strings

26:46

of the underworld, a criminal mastermind.

26:50

Hickman Powell, a former political

26:52

reporter for The New York Herald Tribune writes

26:54

the book while working for Thomas Dewey as

26:56

a volunteer speechwriter and researcher.

27:00

Ninety Times Guilty came out with

27:02

the idea that Luciano had centralized,

27:05

organized modernized the American

27:07

mafia.

27:08

It's a great pr strategy for Dewey to

27:10

lean into.

27:11

He knows that victory of a kingping

27:13

boss is going to be incredibly good publicity

27:16

for him.

27:16

The only problem is this book

27:19

was largely fiction. It combines

27:21

some of the hype about Lucky that Dewey has been

27:23

feeding to the press with some new

27:25

tar tales.

27:27

The idea that Luciano organized crime in America

27:29

because he'd killed sixty to eighty Greeces

27:32

as they were called old style

27:34

mafia gangsters. It gives credence

27:36

to the idea that he was a

27:38

dominant figure in organized crime in America nationally.

27:41

It was just a.

27:42

Completely made up story that

27:44

true crime writers ran with.

27:46

And it isn't just these scenes of vicious

27:49

mob murders this book has fictionalized.

27:52

It's also cementing a bigger lie

27:54

about Lucky too.

28:00

I'm not trying to be the cheerleader

28:02

for Lucky Luciano. But

28:04

I realized the

28:06

opposition had

28:09

a self righteous, zealous

28:12

campaign going and they needed a

28:14

poster boy.

28:15

If you want to make your name, there's no

28:18

point in putting some small

28:20

time hoodlum from downtown Manhattan

28:22

in prison. That's not going to make you famous.

28:25

But you get the boss of all bosses

28:27

of the mafia, and suddenly you were all over

28:30

the papers.

28:31

Dewey needed to position Lucky as

28:33

the one true face of crime

28:35

in America. It was vital

28:38

for people to think it had been Lucky pulling

28:40

all the strings. And now that he's

28:42

been taken down, the war on

28:44

crime has been won.

28:46

By the end of nineteen thirties, with Dewey's

28:48

success as well as Whover's success,

28:51

American newspapers are saying, well, we've beaten organized

28:54

crime.

28:54

Of course they hadn't.

28:56

The book is part of a winning career political

28:58

strategy.

28:59

For doing There's something to be said

29:01

of criminal poster

29:03

boys. Your El Choppels, your John

29:06

Gotties, your Frank Lucas,

29:08

your Lucky Luciano. Who

29:10

makes them that? Are

29:14

they really the face of the problem

29:18

poster boy for whom.

29:21

Dewey's plan of using an anti organized

29:24

crime crusade to get to power has

29:26

been used many times since. Remember

29:29

Giuliani versus the Mob in the nineties. Dewey

29:33

and his subsequent imitators are able

29:35

to gain traction because they're tapping

29:37

into an already existing rich current

29:40

in America.

29:41

White supremacy is absolutely central

29:44

to organized crime. I don't think

29:46

you can discuss one without the other.

29:48

Lucky arriving into the squalor poverty

29:51

and xenophobia of the Lower East Side of New

29:53

York is an ideal candidate.

29:56

Now, a lot of the mafia stuff is a reworking

29:58

of nativist idea as bad

30:00

in America has to come from somewhere

30:02

else. It's foreign, it's the other.

30:05

We still see this today, right, If.

30:07

It is organized crime within

30:10

America, it's by so called immigrant

30:12

groups, it's Mexican nacos,

30:15

it's Russian mafia, it's

30:17

the mafia. You don't tend to

30:19

think of organized crime as being American.

30:22

I think what happened in the nineteen twenties

30:25

and nineteen thirties was this drive

30:29

to demonize people in a way

30:31

that really hadn't been attempted before.

30:33

Organized crime is totally and only

30:35

to do with Italians who've got the

30:37

braun and Jews who've got the brain

30:40

using those ethnic stereotypes, which

30:42

is essentially the analysis that

30:44

the US government followed, and certainly

30:47

true crime writers.

30:48

So you get this fertile ground for Dewey's

30:51

projection of Lucky as the mafia boogeyman,

30:53

an evil puppet master responsible

30:56

for all of society's ills.

30:58

If you create a super

31:00

demon, you're more likely to

31:03

get funding, you're more likely to get

31:05

political power, you're more likely

31:07

to remain in political power.

31:09

And also if you screw up, you

31:11

can say, well, how on earth do you expect us to be able to deal

31:13

with this? They're all over the place. They're far too big for us.

31:16

There's a career opportunity for prosecutors

31:18

in America that do tend to use

31:21

their trials and convictions

31:23

to advance their political prospects. And

31:25

I'd argue the prosecution of Lucky Luciana

31:29

was, to use London terms, a fit up.

31:32

In other words, Lucky's trial

31:35

was rigged. So

31:40

what is the truth about Lucky Luciano?

31:43

Was he truly the godfather of the

31:45

mafia?

31:46

Categorically no, not at all.

31:48

An important career criminal who now other career

31:50

criminals became rich enough during prohibition

31:53

to be able to afford hotel rooms

31:55

in the ward Off historia. But the mythology

31:58

stems from Dewey calling the

32:00

greatest gangster in America. He

32:02

was a career criminal, an extortionist

32:05

in a city full of extortionists.

32:07

It's not that doing in units had the wrong man.

32:10

It was that there never really was just

32:12

one mafia puppet master controlling

32:15

all vice and organized crime. One

32:18

thing Lucky is guilty of, though, with

32:20

his scarred face, sharp clothes

32:23

and ritzy address, is

32:25

standing out.

32:26

If you dressed better and

32:28

had nicer cars than

32:31

the governor, people

32:34

notice, And if you have a

32:36

wow factor that makes

32:40

enemies ears perk

32:42

up, you're going to become

32:45

that de facto face of everything

32:48

those people are out to get.

32:51

Government liked to make the battle against organized

32:53

crime good versus evil. We are the good guys,

32:55

they are the bad guys. But

32:58

there's so many different shades of great.

33:00

This framing of Lucky as the

33:03

boss of organized crime is

33:05

still the way we understand the mafia today.

33:08

It doesn't just come from Hollywood's portrayal

33:10

of the mob. It also comes

33:12

from a deliberate manipulation of the

33:15

public and the law. It's

33:17

a falsehood that originates as

33:19

much from our criminal justice system as

33:21

it does from those la writers' rooms

33:24

Millie and Kokie Flow wanted to get into.

33:26

I mean, The Godfather was a great film, but

33:28

for me, a great misrepresentation of

33:30

the issue of organized crime in America, based

33:33

partly on the Luciana legend.

33:35

Why is it that Luchana

33:37

has this reputation that he doesn't deserve.

33:40

Well, the answer lies really with Thomas

33:42

Dewey. Dewey manipulated the press

33:44

very successfully, and that mythology

33:47

has never really been challenged

33:49

sufficiently, I don't think to this day.

33:52

But what about Eunice Carter? How

33:55

much is she on the hook for this?

33:56

Too?

34:00

A team player, which is a good thing, but

34:04

not necessarily if you're in a team

34:06

that is involved in manipulating

34:08

justice for political advancement,

34:11

which it was in Dewey's case.

34:14

Eunice Carter was probably

34:16

a good fit for

34:19

Thomas Dewey's office

34:21

because she too was career motivated.

34:26

She had bigger barriers

34:29

and hurdles to jump just

34:31

because of who she was. I

34:34

believe she was probably as

34:36

determined, if not more than

34:39

Dewey to carry out

34:42

their vision of justice.

34:46

But for Unice Carter, Thomas

34:49

Dewey would not have been able to convict Lucky

34:51

Luciano. I don't know that Luciano

34:53

would ever have been convicted of anything.

34:56

I guess you could say Eunice

34:58

Carter is the godmother of

35:01

the Godfather. But

35:08

while this undercurrent of American life is

35:11

giving Dewey's career a seemingly unstoppable

35:14

upwards trajectory, unsurprisingly,

35:17

it isn't having the same impact on Unice.

35:20

And as America enters the forties and

35:23

Dewey's career continues to take off,

35:26

Eunice's professional life seems to languish.

35:30

In nineteen thirty eight, Eunice is

35:32

named to Dewey's staff to lead something

35:34

called the Abandonment Bureau of

35:36

Women's Courts. Here,

35:39

her time is spent on cases covering

35:41

everything from divorce and marital issues

35:43

to custody and child support. She'd

35:46

stay there until nineteen forty five, with

35:49

none of the upwards career trajectory

35:51

she'd hope for after Lucky's prosecution.

35:55

I can't imagine Eunice's disappointment

35:58

as she watches her boss Dewey reached

36:00

his professional dreams based on

36:02

the success of the case that could not have happened

36:05

without her. Actually,

36:08

yes, I can imagine it. Sadly,

36:11

it's an old tale.

36:16

If Thomas Dewey refuses to grab drinks

36:18

with his colleagues so he can keep working, he

36:21

may have been seen as dedicated and focused.

36:24

If Eunice Carter refuses, she's

36:26

seen as not being a team player or

36:28

trying to show up her coworkers. And

36:31

if she does, she could be dinged

36:33

as not taking her work seriously enough. How

36:36

is she supposed to know how to get ahead if

36:39

every step is used to hold her back. The

36:42

struggle of navigating a predominantly white,

36:44

predominantly male field is

36:47

enough on its own, but

36:49

add in the concerns of your own black community.

36:52

Why are you a prosecutor? Why aren't you

36:54

looking out for us? Unice's

36:56

medal is probably tested on a

36:58

daily basis, and as a black

37:00

woman, she's expected to show uncommon

37:03

resilience. She

37:05

can't control what people think of her, so it

37:07

wouldn't surprise me if she focused on what

37:09

she could control her pursuit

37:12

of a judgeship. But in the nineteen

37:14

forties, Unice is not really seeing

37:16

the rewards of her work, Unice

37:18

has stayed close to Dewey, and Dewey

37:21

has his sight set on a political win far

37:23

higher than Governor. He's

37:26

inching closer to the White House. Surely

37:29

it's just a matter of time before he brings

37:31

Unis along with him. Right, He's

37:34

become a bit like found family for Unice,

37:37

brought together by the intense, complicated

37:40

loyalty of the mafia. But

37:42

family can also be a source

37:45

of betrayal. If Unice hadn't

37:47

learned that yet, she was

37:49

about to find out. That's

37:52

coming up in episode eight of

37:54

The Godmother. On

38:08

this episode of a Godmother, you heard

38:11

Hi.

38:11

My name is Ellen Paulson. I

38:14

research and I write books about

38:17

women who were involved with notorious

38:20

gangsters in desperadoes.

38:22

My name is Christopher Alfhelps and

38:24

I worked for the University of Exeter. I've published

38:27

two books and several articles on the organized

38:29

crime in the United States. I tend to

38:31

specialize in a periage from eighteen sixty

38:33

five to nineteen forty one.

38:35

My name is Christian SIBERLINI

38:38

and I am an organized crime historian

38:40

and author.

38:41

My name is Robert Whalen, and

38:44

I'm an Emerathus Professor of history

38:46

at Queen's University of Charlotte

38:49

here in Charlotte, North Carolina.

38:50

My name is Chuck Greeves. Before

38:53

becoming a writer, I spent twenty five years

38:55

as a Los Angeles trial lawyer. My

38:58

fourth novel was basically fictionalization

39:01

of the famous nineteen thirty

39:03

six vice trial.

39:05

I'm Debbie Applegate. I'm a historian

39:08

and biographer, and I am the author of

39:10

Madam, The Biography of Polyadler

39:13

Icon of the Jazz Age.

39:15

I am Claire White, and I am the

39:17

director of Education at the Mob Museum

39:19

in downtown Las Vegas.

39:21

I'm Sarah J. Jackson.

39:23

I am an Associate Professor of Communication

39:25

at the Annenberg School for Communication at

39:28

the University of Pennsylvania and

39:30

an affiliate with the Africana and African American

39:32

Studies Program Here.

39:33

I'm Mike woodowis author

39:35

of Organized Crime in American Power and

39:38

a teacher at the University of West of England.

39:41

And I think, with Christopher we are professionally

39:43

story in to look at the issue of organized crime

39:45

in particular.

39:51

The Godmother is produced by Novel for

39:53

iHeartRadio. For more from

39:55

novel, visit novel dot Audio.

39:58

The Godmother is host and written by

40:00

me Nicole Perkins. Our

40:03

producer is Leona Hamid. Additional

40:06

production from Ajuajima Broumpong, Ronald

40:09

Young Junior and Zaiana Yusuf.

40:11

Our editor is Ajua Jima Broompong.

40:14

Additional story editing from Max O'Brien

40:17

and Mith Lee Raw, and our researcher

40:19

is Zaiana Yusuf. Additional research

40:21

from Mohammed Ahmed. David Waters

40:23

is our executive producer. Field

40:25

production by Tnito Romani and Pallas

40:28

Shaw, Sound design, mixing

40:30

and scoring by Daniel Kempsen. Our

40:33

score was written, performed and recorded

40:35

by Jeff Parker. Music supervision

40:37

by Nicholas Alexander and David Waters.

40:40

Production management and endless patients

40:42

from Sharie Houston, Sarah

40:45

Tobin and Charlotte Wolfe. Fact

40:47

checking by Fendell Fulton and Dania

40:49

Suleiman. Story development

40:51

by Madeline Parr, Jess

40:53

Swinburne and Zaiana Yusuf.

40:56

Willard Foxton is our creative director

40:58

of Development. Special thanks

41:00

to Leah Carter, Stephen Carter,

41:03

Angela J. Davis, Andrew

41:05

Fernley, Marilyn Greenwald,

41:08

Sondra Lebedy, Katherine

41:10

Godfrey, Nadia Maidie,

41:13

Amalia Sortland, Shawn Glenn,

41:15

Neil Krishnan, Julia

41:18

Bromberg, Katrina Norvelle,

41:20

Carly Frankel, and all the team

41:22

at w Emmy Novel