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knowing and i'm your host for vog

1:01

conversations

1:14

have become one of those one people

1:16

you

1:20

your lot of talk about identity politics

1:23

the division

1:24

the politics flat out racism

1:26

and bigotry but as a mob the media

1:29

the identity politics gets a bad rap do

1:31

not agree that the real threat from identity politics

1:33

and united states to what you might ask what's

1:36

so bad about identity politics you

1:38

wouldn't care about identity politics with a was

1:40

your identity and the general if

1:43

, being shared shared that identity

1:45

politics is politics because

1:48

it's narrow because exclusionary weather's

1:51

been practiced by black americans

1:53

for trans people or white

1:55

supremacists so the

1:57

idea is that supremacists so doing identity

2:00

politics they're not mobilizing

2:02

around some particular group interest

2:05

went class for example their

2:07

, around some fixed

2:10

aspect of well well

2:12

identity and that's just bad

2:14

politics in a diverse society that requires

2:17

broadcast

2:19

across group differences people

2:21

, the other side of this will often say that

2:24

this is really just an attack on race

2:26

and gender politics politics

2:29

that everyone has identities and

2:31

politics is simply about mobilizing

2:33

around those identities in other

2:35

words identity politics is just

2:38

politics a

2:40

new book by old of semi terrific

2:43

philosopher at georgetown university

2:46

tries , up in this debate and push

2:49

i think in a more productive direction

2:52

direction book is called elite capture

2:55

how the powerful took over identity over

2:58

and , else It's partially

3:00

the genealogy of the identity

3:03

politics, but it's fundamentally

3:05

about how virtually all political

3:07

movements are co-opted

3:08

by Elites and stripped of their

3:10

substance in the process. What

3:13

time will is really talking about is

3:15

how powerful actors. Use something like identity

3:18

Politics, as a mask for

3:20

corporatism?

3:21

A good example this is a recent ad

3:24

McDonalds that spotlights a black

3:26

female designer to let

3:28

me my notes Here. Yeah,

3:31

that's right. Champion. The company's commitment

3:33

to environmental sustainability.

3:35

melanie phillips is environmental activist

3:37

with a serious deliver a

3:40

website

3:44

mommy track of that would like my

3:46

always see , a showcase

3:49

means miss so and

3:53

of course that's absurd since be production

3:55

is a massive contributor to greener the

3:57

gas emissions and all mcdonalds really wants

3:59

to do the felt he put any

4:02

if you get point there's

4:04

obviously a lot to chew on here so

4:06

i invited i will onto the show to talk

4:08

about what motivated his first signs

4:11

of identity politics he thinks

4:14

the about , we're headed all

4:22

, tie whoa welcome to the

4:24

show like ceramic i've actually wanted

4:26

to talk to you for a while and

4:29

then i saw this book of years and i knew

4:31

immediately our testify and

4:34

i'll say why i've always considered

4:36

myself on the

4:44

the contrary bothers me because

4:47

so much of it seems so unlikely

4:50

to disrupt the power structure

4:52

it's kind of lefty politics that i'm

4:54

sure korea very hot to

4:57

see will get into why that is i think

5:00

you and i convert on that points but i just

5:02

wanted to put my cards on the table right

5:04

it's top and just kind of css

5:07

far as well you're coming from a slightly

5:09

different place or

5:11

place yeah , mean

5:13

there are few things that are more

5:16

contested than the idea of what the left

5:19

his mom , this country

5:21

are are other countries other

5:25

it's a little hard to say but i think

5:27

the outlines what you're saying resonate with

5:29

me i concern myself on the

5:31

left eye in

5:35

frustrated with the left in and

5:39

i think that's an almost

5:41

universal at

5:43

, ubiquitous condition there's

5:45

a lot of dissatisfaction with the

5:47

state of the last a lot

5:49

of which is just because the left doesn't

5:52

have power beloved which are

5:54

substantive but inspired

5:57

with the left for very different paddle

6:01

reasons and so part of what i was

6:03

hoping to work through in the book

6:05

was how much of

6:08

the disagreements are really

6:10

substantive strong

6:12

disagreements about what the world

6:14

is like or what political struggles involve

6:17

and how much of his just were

6:19

framing things framing different ways maybe

6:22

the best way to ask you is just what you think

6:24

of is a motive criticism

6:27

the book and it's pretty clear

6:29

something has gone wrong with identity

6:31

politics or the way we talk about identity

6:33

politics but it's not necessarily the thing

6:36

a lot of people who are spending a lot of energy critiquing

6:38

identity politics think has gone with

6:41

identity politics what exactly

6:44

is your beef here so

6:47

it has come under lot of criticism

6:49

a lot of it coming from the political right who

6:53

interested in the underlying issue the

6:55

anti racism or opposing

6:58

the patriarchy or whatever it might be but

7:01

also there's been a while that's

7:03

fashion on left people think

7:06

well i daddy parts a

7:08

way for people of

7:10

marginalized i daddy's to cynically

7:13

get out of certain kinds of criticism a

7:16

, of people think maybe something

7:18

even more cynical identity politics is just

7:20

just bottom grist

7:24

and there's either bottom kind of

7:26

true grifters who consciously know

7:28

that they're griff day there's the kind

7:31

of useful idiots who are helping

7:33

them drift the aisle

7:35

know i'm not really on those

7:37

teams like yeah there's of course

7:40

bad behavior they

7:43

did with any kind of politics because

7:46

the us and some of us are asshole the

7:49

world right but ,

7:51

i think about what goes wrong with identity

7:53

politics it's just entire we

7:55

have a piece with the

7:57

broader project

8:00

series of point redistribution

8:04

this and power upwards and

8:07

so the political distortions

8:09

political distortions history

8:11

of anti racist struggle or just

8:14

entirely kind of traveling in the

8:16

same sort of direction as

8:19

dollars this

8:22

regulatory capture it all

8:24

these kind of wonky are things that we

8:26

usually service separate

8:28

little bubbles a piano today it's all

8:30

the same thing which is or social

8:32

system is kind of wrapping it's itself

8:35

tighter and tighter around the

8:37

top end of yes distributions

8:40

of power and resources in

8:43

assassin

8:44

never eaten asked the question or

8:46

thought about the origins of the phrase

8:49

identity politics which i bumped into

8:51

and your book for the first time is that right

8:53

that it was it was used for the first time

8:55

or coins for the first time in nineteen seventy

8:57

seven by ups read

8:59

black feminist organization and they had

9:02

a very intense

9:04

concept yeah

9:06

that's right burcombe right burcombe collective

9:09

was a group of queer

9:11

black socialists and

9:14

come up with the idea of

9:16

identity politics and

9:19

as they explained it you're

9:22

actually went and interviewed

9:24

them and made it into

9:26

a book the

9:29

idea of identity politics has been so

9:31

differently understood recently but as

9:33

they explained it was

9:35

about was having

9:38

was responsibility to develop your

9:40

i call analysis from

9:42

your own place system

9:46

as queer in social

9:48

systems combine that

9:51

you in a particular way in the

9:53

same way that those systems would combine

9:55

to affect you in different ways different you had

9:57

you had

10:00

i daddy barclays and the

10:02

idea about identity politics

10:04

was that's the place to start

10:07

best thinking about what your

10:09

political priorities are going to be and

10:12

it's not a substitute for working

10:14

with other people or collaborating it's

10:17

not substitute for coalitional politics

10:20

the an emphasis for political politics

10:22

because then you can more readily

10:25

they were hughes

10:28

and other people's issues overlap

10:30

and why so , of

10:32

those those of ideas

10:35

of very strongly

10:37

tied into identity politics

10:40

as it was kind of originally understood

10:42

by the collective and

10:45

let's if things went awry

10:47

and i want to try to pay

10:49

clear picture as a can of

10:51

the store you're telling in this book about

10:53

and we capture and the metaphor live

10:56

in your book is rooms

10:58

to the problem

11:00

the without a lot of our politics has this

11:02

pretense of being

11:06

in fact we're mostly just stuck

11:09

in these rooms

11:11

by the very forces were contesting

11:15

the way that try to understand

11:17

how identity politics

11:20

work places with

11:23

the , of rooms and

11:26

in and way it's kind of

11:28

men cool we could think

11:31

well rooms are sounds

11:33

of interaction or there

11:36

those for networks you know i do

11:38

theory for a living we can be fancy about it

11:41

back silly when i the up with as i

11:43

just met literally like

11:45

if you go into a building and some

11:47

people go into one part of it go

11:50

into another part of it those

11:52

facts are non read those facts

11:55

are explained by if we're thinking

11:57

about the university for instance

11:59

which is the place where i work

12:02

the things explain who goes into which

12:04

rooms are things like rank

12:06

and , i'm getting out by trying to talk

12:09

about rooms in

12:11

the literal or hypothetical case

12:14

is that everybody with

12:16

everybody you interact with

12:19

certain people so

12:21

what does it mean to

12:25

a politics of defer

12:27

to this kind of person with

12:29

this identity defer to

12:32

they're just people differ to black people

12:35

you people color in general defer to

12:37

women etc given

12:40

the specific people from there

12:42

is that you're going to meet if

12:45

you're harvard

12:48

you're gonna meet specific people from

12:50

both categories if you're in

12:52

the white house the

12:55

situation room at say you're gonna meet specific

12:57

people from those kinds of

12:59

category and

13:02

those people might

13:05

not be represent the

13:07

whole group

13:09

there's anybody out there

13:11

who would deny that what i said was

13:13

true just now but

13:17

the question is are we keeping

13:20

that true and i think

13:22

i hope obvious fact in mind

13:25

when in generalities

13:28

about what identity politics is

13:31

the always clear to me that we are also

13:34

just i think i think interesting anything

13:38

the what might

13:40

sound like a simple question

13:42

exactly you're talking about when you're talking about

13:45

the elites

13:47

are we talking about i ,

13:49

people people for educated people

13:52

all the above what yeah

13:54

i think that's important question

13:56

don't think the answer is obvious and part

13:58

of what i'm getting at rooms

14:00

is the obvious the

14:03

way i use the term early in the

14:05

book the way that i think is

14:08

taking cues from

14:11

joe freeman has a political scientist

14:13

who thought about the idea in

14:16

the women's liberation movement and

14:20

also the kind of economists you study the

14:22

elite by it's local enron is

14:25

basically what i'm getting elite

14:29

there are few people in this world who

14:31

are just the without qualification

14:33

would be a week in pretty much any room

14:36

that they walk into

14:38

know maybe jeff bezos is just an elite

14:41

and we'll need to keep track of who were

14:43

comparing him to him to him

14:45

an elite few

14:47

of those people by

14:49

think engine is a

14:51

comparison and so you do

14:53

need to think about who you're comparing

14:56

it to so when

14:59

frazier the black sociologists

15:02

to sociologists learned i learned from and writing this

15:04

when he's talking about flacco

15:08

comparing the people

15:10

who are the most well advantaged

15:13

blast against

15:16

other , people and the

15:19

reason why it's important

15:21

that that's road the

15:23

black elite wasn't a powerful you

15:25

and any other sets or he calls them

15:27

a lump in was he will

15:29

if you compare them to the the

15:31

capital of different races

15:33

they're not comically power though

15:38

the fact that there when's

15:40

your then people

15:43

have a lot to do it is that

15:45

politics , for

15:49

for americans and that time period but he was

15:51

right and so that's the

15:53

kind of relative thing that i'm trying

15:55

to say so you're in

15:57

harvard if you're in the white house you're

16:00

in the newsroom

16:03

you may well be dealing with

16:05

people who aren't as advance

16:08

the people in the room wow

16:10

it as the most advantage people in the

16:13

world but who are nevertheless

16:15

of nevertheless top of the distributions are the

16:17

you know among the richest people from

16:20

their marginalized categories when

16:22

people are in the room with me an

16:25

assistant professor that people throughout

16:27

rank me and the academy but

16:29

speaking i

16:32

am astronomically ,

16:34

and general and especially you know

16:37

among black voters i'm i'm

16:39

black one percent ends

16:42

losing track of that and

16:44

explaining

16:46

does go and should go would be a mistake

16:52

we're , to take a quick break know when we're

16:54

back back the semi ty will was

16:56

clear elite capture

16:59

is not some kind of conspiracy

17:01

it's actually more boring than that and that's

17:03

why it's so much harder to tackle

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that's good well dot orcs

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dick podcast and the menu and into our

19:16

show name conversations

19:28

you know something you i think he said explicitly

19:30

in the book is that that

19:34

a , will that

19:37

a superficial reading of the argument

19:40

you're making that can get very

19:42

conspiracists very easily where

19:44

it's sad to select class of

19:47

obese trapping us and stultifying rooms

19:49

but the truth

19:51

dynamic you're describing seems quite

19:53

a bit more all

19:55

then that and for that reason actually much

19:58

harder

20:00

yeah so the basic thing

20:02

that i think as an elite after his assistant

20:04

behave we captures the

20:06

thing that our society does and

20:09

, can involve

20:11

and often involve people

20:13

being or people being negligent

20:16

or people being selfish no

20:18

moral successes and failures

20:21

but it is primarily an

20:23

hour the system is doing

20:26

not just you , a thing

20:28

those shadowy cabal of people

20:30

plan out what i'm

20:33

hoping to keep in mind

20:35

when talking about and we capture

20:38

is that capture lot of the people

20:40

in the kinds of rooms bribing

20:43

or just genuinely describing

20:45

what life is like for that if ,

20:48

are black and that

20:50

harvard's harvard's probably have

20:52

more thoughts about black life

20:54

at harvard than the average black person

20:57

not because you're trying

20:59

to disenfranchise the

21:03

who haven't been to harvard but because

21:05

you are trying to understand your experiences

21:07

nor in to do it

21:10

would be weird if people didn't do it and

21:13

it also be weird if i think we

21:15

were the stigmatize be more

21:18

in touch with the aspects of

21:20

life that they actually have a lived connection

21:22

to them both aspects of life that they don't

21:25

have a connection to there's nothing

21:27

can see the about people

21:29

who are in

21:31

one sense of identity and and beds another

21:33

sense of identity looking

21:36

at the world describing the world

21:39

the world as it appears to that and

21:42

so it's just natural that

21:45

if the lion's

21:47

share spots in

21:50

newsrooms and media

21:53

organization and in mia

21:56

and and policy go

21:59

whoo have advantages

22:04

that the ways just

22:06

as are understood the

22:08

under how and justice

22:10

works circulate are ,

22:12

to be affected by the

22:14

experiences of the people who

22:17

have the resources to spread

22:19

narratives about the world begin spirits

22:21

for i think is

22:24

inaccurate but it's not even clear

22:26

but it is he

22:29

would have the number

22:31

of since in institutions

22:35

the and on distorting

22:37

the world as , was

22:39

like for everybody

22:42

yeah and i think you're right to focus on

22:44

systems an incentive structures

22:47

as i'd like to do myself

22:49

you know there's a i think

22:51

and home if i'm wrong a fairly explicit

22:53

critique of liberal

22:56

democracy and capitalism work

22:58

in this book committee it's not even a critique so much as

23:02

but the liberalism that we have does

23:04

seem the neared then

23:07

we capture of the kind you talking about right

23:10

i mean it has the some it has a pretense

23:12

of neutrality of a late level

23:14

the or neutral and

23:17

is not really level certainly not for long

23:19

and what happens as power concentrates

23:22

to be become more

23:24

influential

23:25

more invested in perpetuating

23:28

the and or

23:30

determined the ladder

23:33

get cold

23:34

by it i mean is that too simplistic

23:36

the story or that

23:39

the story know i think that's

23:41

more that's more the story i think you're right

23:43

on that's both criticism

23:46

but it's also just a i description

23:49

the how liberal democracy

23:52

though some function and concert with

23:54

one you start

23:56

with capitalism and

23:59

you say we're going to create

24:02

a certain arguably

24:04

core , of elite we're

24:07

gonna take the aspects

24:09

of the world that pertain to production which

24:12

are the things that we need to do

24:14

to literally survive and

24:17

we're going to put them under

24:19

the private control

24:22

of private actress so

24:25

how this works today is something

24:28

of a complicated though executives

24:31

and shareholders but regardless

24:34

that story is about how corporate

24:38

there isn't so much as a that

24:40

it their public institutions the

24:42

point of running them is how

24:45

you and maybe profit and if

24:48

the happens for people who aren't in the court maybe

24:51

a box but that's how

24:53

capitalise on your sense of was how

24:55

preparations anderson south as how they can we

24:59

have duties to our shareholders what

25:02

so , start off by creating a

25:04

week the kind of

25:07

key , of human life

25:10

life then you then well

25:12

other than that we're all equal and everybody

25:15

gets to pope added to sara

25:17

us that system run for that long time

25:20

and the people who have disproportionate

25:24

control over the our basic

25:26

material needs end up having disproportionate

25:29

control

25:31

and weekend i

25:33

trust we can talk about tax

25:35

reform and and we should

25:39

we should recognize that the basic outline

25:41

of the situation was never compatible

25:43

with anything that resembles the quality

25:46

it couldn't be compatible with anything that resembles

25:48

equality it is from the first

25:51

a system that rejects equality and

25:54

, we're interested in equality as a value

25:56

for interested in democracy

25:59

as democracy system we might need

26:01

something else yeah

26:03

, that's that's of what is sort

26:05

is i guess depressing about

26:08

the wait

26:09

dynamic because it feels almost like up

26:12

a natural law of social life

26:14

where life think the way putting the book is a sailor basically

26:16

any system that has imbalances

26:18

of power will produce elite

26:21

cats that seems pretty much every

26:23

social beware sufficiently

26:26

long point so just feels

26:28

inescapable or my just being i

26:31

dunno

26:33

i think that's pretty that's right the

26:35

the question isn't whether or not

26:37

there the meet by

26:40

think the how

26:42

much going to have since

26:44

how negative will the consequences

26:47

of a we kept the be

26:50

another way to ask those questions

26:53

the towards more

26:55

hopeful ways that is

26:58

how good it is

27:00

the society at constraining

27:03

the cat there

27:05

are two major of families

27:07

of things that things think would help us and than

27:11

one how , arctic

27:14

arctic big are the inequalities do

27:16

the people the

27:19

can disturb you have

27:22

one hundred

27:23

what the people at the bottom half

27:25

to they have ten

27:27

thousand times a week

27:29

after and those three scenarios are

27:31

probably our the

27:33

war going to look quite different from yeah

27:36

and then the second category of

27:38

things or institution

27:42

the one bit of will

27:45

give liberal democracy

27:47

tied with capitalism is that liberal

27:50

democracy at ,

27:52

best could be thought of as

27:54

thought of of constraints on

27:57

a way of organizing the rest of political

28:00

life and social life to constrain

28:03

really capture we're going to

28:05

give the baggers

28:07

here the control

28:09

over needed aspects of production

28:12

but , all get one vote each each

28:15

they all get regulated by a

28:18

society's govern everybody

28:20

gets an equal votes in choose

28:23

supposing you actually which

28:25

is certainly in jeopardy in the united

28:28

states and don't

28:32

that are anti gaucho you might the

28:34

electoral college pending some other

28:36

design decisions that my last do

28:39

something rather than nothing to

28:41

constrain kind of

28:43

inequality the up in capitalism

28:46

and even better idea would be does

28:50

have historically been kinds

28:52

of

28:54

of non elites that

28:56

, very well

28:59

and shooting the kind of excesses

29:01

of economic elites elites

29:03

me try make us as countries

29:06

possible for a second and ask

29:08

about an institution or an organization

29:10

an the people know about

29:12

that exist right now the robot let us

29:14

let something like black lives

29:16

matter

29:18

the organization like black lives matter as

29:20

having the

29:23

weeds do you see them driven

29:25

movement right from the

29:27

the are neither me i'd just people

29:30

may or may not know but the it was just recently

29:32

reported that some the sounders

29:35

out the but the topic we're basically

29:37

winning million dollars on criminal

29:40

estate transactions and and stuff like

29:42

that we will use that

29:45

how does that who

29:48

the storytelling the book

29:51

yeah

29:53

the if can't both

29:55

happening and be aware blm

29:58

global network it's

30:00

all the defense hard to understand

30:04

i don't even imagine how trying to do either

30:07

would go so the

30:09

point obviously that there's

30:13

a mismatch mapper top level

30:16

but i

30:18

think the question of

30:20

what the highest

30:23

, people are doing and

30:25

blm global network and

30:28

what the movement is about about

30:30

seem to me like separable

30:33

questions

30:36

local chapters of

30:38

blm

30:40

be autonomous for years

30:43

have been criticizing the

30:46

kind of decisions being

30:49

the top of that networks

30:52

there was the

30:55

group letter signed on hi

30:58

doctors which were calling for

31:01

a kind of his democratic

31:03

reorganization of below

31:06

the network and

31:08

the kinds of insights that those organizers

31:11

put into that i'd

31:14

kind of ,

31:17

to really capture that i

31:19

think our strategic and makes sense

31:22

yeah in that chapter you're talking about

31:25

franklin frazier yasuo right

31:27

yasuo good bit about anderson

31:30

interesting

31:31

isn't it he's a very well known anti colonial

31:34

fla suffered was writing muslim the fifties

31:37

concerns he had about

31:39

the emerging elites are middle class

31:42

and african nations can capture

31:44

and

31:45

wrapped in after they gained

31:47

independence and it was making

31:50

me think of am there's am book by an

31:52

authentic jessa crispin why i'm

31:54

not a feminist that i read several years

31:56

ago years ago and an interview with her she

31:59

seen be making similar argument about

32:02

with feminism where it's sort of bricks the

32:05

reign of feminism that one out was sheryl

32:08

sandberg when like liberation

32:11

basically stopped being dismantling

32:14

patriarchy and basic within

32:16

the logic where you have

32:18

like a seat at the use

32:21

emancipation when it was really just kind of like

32:24

the very machine that

32:26

you were trying to rejected like

32:28

the same kind of logic of a week after

32:30

playing out in a difference

32:32

the same process right it's

32:35

exact same price and

32:38

as far as i can

32:40

the exact same reason which

32:42

are what we

32:44

return with room the

32:46

selection pressures there

32:48

are there

32:50

are things that explain the

32:54

huge variety

32:57

area logically economically

33:01

which people the patients

33:03

and ideas get rewarded and

33:06

which people organizations and ideas

33:09

get persecuted

33:12

there , a lot of genuinely

33:16

radical feminists

33:19

who oppose not just

33:22

patriarchy butts trance phobia

33:25

and serialism the whole nine

33:28

there were a lot of people who had ideas

33:31

that work friendlier the

33:33

abolition it's some out of cynical

33:36

opportunism because that

33:38

was they're considered opinion and

33:41

, question to ask for me as and how

33:44

could anyone the have anyone the that

33:47

we need anything other than other

33:49

than the iraqi revolution

33:53

so much as if you

33:56

the burn it all down feminists

33:58

in front of you and had the lead

34:00

and feminists in front of you and

34:03

you operated a grants found and

34:06

you didn't want your said to get burned down

34:08

who would you find that

34:11

ninety percent of it will do that

34:13

with the civil rights do

34:16

that we're queer liberation

34:19

it , from top to bottom be

34:21

i think fundamentally the

34:24

same worry to

34:27

me is why all

34:29

the sort of idio lot this

34:31

is immobile next is

34:34

neither here nor there all

34:37

, need is to understand

34:40

who's in charge now and who have

34:43

the to give and

34:46

i'm a minimum degree of intelligence

34:48

not conspiracy but simply

34:50

def simply understanding their own

34:53

political and economic situation and you

34:55

can already explain why

34:57

dirty politics of gone

35:00

gone and it's not different from

35:02

anything else liberalism

35:05

had , radical tits

35:08

tits no accident that the versions

35:10

of liberalism that are most commonly on

35:12

offer now are the ones are friendly so friendly

35:16

he really just he like capitalism

35:19

is feels man like the

35:22

artists because i guess what this is right it's

35:24

just this on defeat it

35:27

over and over gets it has over and unbelievable

35:30

way of undercutting any

35:33

potential threats to

35:48

the way to save a whole book is

35:50

that is the problem with

35:52

identity politics isn't that

35:55

it's idiot isn't

35:57

the problem is that the first world one the cold

35:59

war

36:11

okay we're going to take one last short break

36:13

but after we're back there's , lot

36:16

of people out here trying to challenge

36:18

the system system according

36:20

to a lost any tie well they're doing

36:22

it wrong

36:44

the spring and finally you're

36:47

probably pumped to get some eject

36:49

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36:51

in and not just a place to crashed

36:54

maybe or slapping up a new coat of paint organizing

36:57

your book sales but don't forget the real

36:59

bones of your space the furniture

37:02

you know the stuff that actually support

37:04

your body every day nothing

37:06

, change the feel and use of a room

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quite like new counties in feeding

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39:13

let's talk a little bit

39:19

there are a lot of people who think they are challenging

39:21

the system who think they're helping but

39:23

a reality they aren't and they

39:27

you know that is something you called politics

39:30

you say that say prime example of this kind of power

39:34

the call to listen to or

39:36

center the most marginalized voices

39:40

nearly that this

39:43

doesn't sit well with you why

39:46

that's

39:48

well with me because of the

39:50

stuff we were talking about earlier

39:53

with rome's if you say

39:56

you need to center them most marginal

39:59

and it explains your behavior

40:02

is centering the most marginalized

40:04

person marginalized the room the

40:08

what's going to be the to address

40:10

that person's concern

40:12

the thoroughly involve

40:15

challenging the deep political stuff that

40:18

explain our world there's

40:21

some rooms where that might

40:23

follow immediately and the

40:26

were one fear at

40:28

harvard the thing that you need fixed

40:32

colin powell life just isn't

40:34

a full dismantling and

40:37

we all know that so

40:40

in one the i

40:43

think is wrong

40:46

generalized dangerous

40:49

way about what

40:51

it is that we need to

40:54

address the problems of the social

40:57

system we live in but

40:59

maybe more to the and

41:01

more importantly there's

41:05

their orientation that there's

41:07

a better served thing you have

41:10

, of things that workers are doing across the us

41:12

right now is kind of things that christmas

41:15

and dairy farmer to rub to

41:18

maybe it's not

41:20

the hall monitor

41:23

of social and the maybe

41:26

what we need to do instead is changed

41:29

the kinds of interactions that we're having

41:31

a gentle change the kinds of

41:33

structures that exist beyond

41:36

, room and maybe

41:38

enough efforts of that time to actually

41:41

see way that so

41:45

whether it's starting a union

41:48

or whether it's just building the kind

41:50

of cultures that would sustain people

41:52

who do that ,

41:54

work can take an orientation of

41:58

constructive politics hi

42:00

a building the here

42:02

rather than reacting to the thing societies

42:05

built for us the histories bill for us

42:08

and i think that's the ether is

42:10

more promising me , have

42:12

to ask what you make us

42:16

what people often called eleven

42:21

the diversity equity and inclusion industrial

42:24

complex or someone like a robin

42:26

deangelis says like that the freaking a posse

42:30

it the gaps

42:33

i have to ask i wrote

42:35

a piece awhile back with enzo

42:37

rossi the colleague

42:39

of mine yeah

42:41

and we a map

42:44

he said that woke ratio capitalism

42:46

will capitalism it's a genuinely

42:50

cool development in

42:52

the past these

42:55

rich countries and corporations

42:58

apologize honey

43:00

data that he

43:03

sort of prague

43:05

as national independence

43:07

movements were successful as

43:10

their kind of

43:11

our parts in

43:13

the racial justice an anti colonial justice

43:16

movements in what we call the global

43:18

north now school involves

43:23

fighting openly against not

43:26

all structures

43:28

of a the greg

43:31

a san but ,

43:33

the idea that those

43:35

were structures worth having around

43:38

we're structures that were well

43:41

with the ideals that

43:43

we often the

43:45

have about equality and justice

43:47

and free and

43:50

so from all that i

43:55

to say that will capital there's

43:57

actually it's a victory

44:00

the ideological residue of

44:04

many political victories that been one

44:06

over the past it's

44:09

annoying it's

44:12

it it's it

44:15

added all those oh

44:18

the it represents a kind of

44:22

new the concept point

44:25

a lot of the center

44:28

right to center left if

44:31

they have to hit

44:33

the points than their counterparts

44:35

a hundred years would have had to

44:37

yeah i guess the person's me as his

44:39

aerialist victory ,

44:42

may dog in trouble for this but

44:46

the core function of fascism for example

44:48

in my

44:50

is to mobilize

44:52

, and middle class resentments in ways

44:54

that do not will

44:56

not alter the distribution of power

44:59

and societies and what

45:01

and largely symbolic

45:04

innovations of politics

45:06

of the sort of like robin the angela represents

45:09

is i'll be are far less dangerous tenancy

45:12

but it's still the same kind of tendency to harness

45:14

legitimate grievances in ways that won't

45:16

do anything to address them a to

45:20

those grievances and his name in about

45:22

like right or wrong i'm talking purely about

45:24

strategy in travels and like how to deploy

45:26

finite amount of energy's you know so what's more

45:28

important i have

45:31

norco interpretations are fighting

45:33

for stronger , unions

45:35

know like what you that is more likely to improve the

45:37

lives of actual disadvantaged

45:40

people every movement has to run

45:42

this kind of decision calculus known as to think

45:44

about that

45:45

the on political constraints

45:47

are blowback and weigh that

45:49

against the material goals and decide

45:52

like was the best way forward and how

45:55

to spend the energy that they have with the

45:57

money that they have or whatever it

45:59

is important the wrong or income ridiculous

46:03

i mean it's not ridiculous but

46:05

we need to expand what we mean by

46:08

material the women

46:11

the opinion few things

46:13

that would be meaning

46:16

for materially then building

46:18

unions and preparing them and

46:21

revitalizing belabor move is

46:25

it expect of how

46:27

organize people

46:30

sometimes over corrects

46:32

from that thoughts two

46:35

sometimes , a too far far

46:38

terms of how other things that

46:40

are often associated with identity politics

46:43

are insufficiently

46:46

the all costs people

46:49

of all races in south africa

46:51

couldn't vote in elections

46:54

until nineteen ninety four in

46:57

power who

46:59

, can offices

47:02

bizarre material aspects of

47:04

how the world is organized there

47:07

aren't necessarily the ones have

47:10

top of my deciding whether

47:12

or not justice movements are succeeding are failing

47:15

him i didn't just false

47:17

and an ordinary way who

47:20

shock up the development between

47:23

the end of the second world war and

47:26

now to just rhetoric or

47:28

just where like because

47:33

because so many independents move

47:36

one pm and what

47:39

the fact the material

47:41

difference in , the world

47:43

operates better

47:46

nice as such and we can keep

47:49

that in mind while saying besides

47:52

the full list of

47:53

is that we wanted or was yana

47:56

catholic i'm not a political operator

47:58

type in the with how do i know

48:00

argument that maybe , of

48:02

these these

48:04

or cultural victories are

48:07

preconditions for congress

48:10

the victories down the road

48:13

certainly think so i recently

48:15

when we're talking about colonialist

48:19

i'm , of the opinion that's

48:21

the british empire would have taken

48:24

it upon itself to provide

48:27

the material conditions for

48:29

flourishing and o'clock the

48:31

west africa if they

48:33

were happy sir the

48:37

they didn't buy a scrap

48:39

asthma you probably do need

48:41

to have control of

48:43

political institute even

48:46

bike or to begin

48:48

thinking other things now

48:52

the whole ballgame obviously otherwise

48:55

you just trade one set of oppressors

48:58

for another but i

49:00

do think there the steps between

49:04

oppression , total victory

49:06

over oppress oppress question

49:08

and you

49:10

that a constructor politics is one that

49:13

engages the task of redistributing

49:16

social resources and power rather

49:18

, pursuing intermedia

49:21

as down and symbols gesturing

49:25

at the second guy friends a

49:28

the constructive politics look

49:30

like

49:31

they are moving towards or

49:34

away from and again when again usually i am

49:36

talking about to american political

49:38

situation political think we're definitely moving

49:41

towards it again what

49:43

the

49:44

cause they're doing with the starbucks workers are doing

49:47

bass construct in politics yeah just

49:50

because building already

49:53

a victory but , building

49:55

a union and having a

49:57

bunch of sibley unions across the world

50:00

he the , for tomorrow's

50:03

bigger victory and so

50:05

they're building they're kind of

50:08

institutions that can lead

50:10

to serious changes and

50:13

that's it instructor

50:15

politics about whether

50:18

it's workers unions workers whether it's debtors

50:21

tenants unions whether

50:23

, the kinds of of

50:26

aid or childcare network that same

50:28

kind of people that would do those things like you

50:30

need to build stuff it's not

50:32

about hearings from

50:35

the people who

50:38

the marginalized oppressed it's

50:40

about challenging

50:42

organization and oppression and

50:44

there's plenty of people

50:47

yeah

50:48

in one , i i found

50:50

myself continually wondering when

50:52

i was reading your book is

50:55

when i'm making a case that we are playing

50:57

something like a rigged game or least a game in which

51:00

power invariably finds a way to rig

51:02

things to it's was kept

51:04

begging the question agency

51:07

do we have your for me the most dispiriting

51:11

harry the or

51:13

strategy his oldest time

51:16

there were solidarity is perpetually

51:19

and i do between

51:23

groups that are

51:25

in in in different ways and

51:28

we always the capacity to

51:31

transcend that actually not even

51:33

that complicated by zinc

51:36

hard to do for all these reasons

51:39

some mean how

51:41

nc and and of like transcending

51:43

some of these dynamics

51:44

talking about i , it's hard

51:46

to do until it isn't and

51:49

part of what

51:52

is about is doing

51:56

making it easy during

51:58

the hard work making it easy

52:01

for people hard

52:04

to get people to sign

52:06

cards to form a union

52:09

it's incredibly hard to do all

52:11

the or get

52:14

a strike together figure out demands

52:17

etc etc but

52:19

once you've done all that holding not

52:23

that hard lots of

52:25

people get find lots

52:27

of people can do chance if

52:29

you don't know the chair listening

52:32

we're , keep saying it and and

52:35

pick it up easy

52:37

comes after her they rarely

52:39

goes in the other direction the

52:42

next lets you kind of how it goes

52:45

but like the platonic ideal of like

52:47

attica constructive political movement political comes

52:50

to mind for you that demonstrates like

52:52

what did in the flesh

52:56

by using the book

52:58

my the airports

53:01

the no independent struggle

53:05

guinea bissau and keep and

53:09

it's

53:11

oppositional because

53:13

it

53:14

so what they were building was at

53:16

first or workers' movement and then

53:18

when the portuguese fascist

53:20

government responded with violence

53:23

im a guerrilla campaign but

53:26

, they did did

53:29

billed or at the

53:32

old exercise that

53:35

was self determined that ,

53:38

the structures structures

53:40

make it sound decisions about how it

53:43

was going the going the

53:45

early the african

53:48

party for the independence of

53:50

guinea bissau the p i c c

53:54

they started off the

53:57

will receive programs training program

54:00

in health services

54:02

and of course combat the

54:06

developed i would school

54:08

with the help of neighboring

54:10

guinea conakry and

54:13

a number of allies abroad

54:15

sweden bulgaria cuba bay

54:19

started buildings people's

54:22

tribunals ends that's

54:25

really just building

54:27

a different society while

54:30

fighting for the right to do

54:32

so without getting bombed by

54:35

nato and that

54:38

to me is the

54:41

instructive idea and practice

54:43

it's not but you don't have to fight

54:46

nabil don't have to struggle it's not that there's

54:49

no role for adversarial

54:52

politics the

54:54

powers that were were content to just

54:56

let us live the way that

54:59

we wanted then we wouldn't have to do any

55:01

of this but

55:03

the is compatible with political

55:06

struggling building the conditions

55:08

for a certain kind of future well

55:11

america has to

55:14

parties the democrats

55:16

and republicans your coke and pepsi that's

55:18

what we got yep it's not ideal

55:20

a is suboptimal as a kids say but

55:23

that is what we got the democratic

55:25

party a viable vehicle for

55:28

the political project you want to see

55:30

in the world in if it isn't where

55:33

does that leave us as it stands

55:36

now clearly know and

55:38

the

55:39

democratic higher up some cells

55:42

have made this clear i

55:44

always think of be

55:47

fund raising speech when joe biden

55:49

promise of birth

55:51

that cats in the room but nothing would fundamentally

55:54

change of us president it's

55:57

not even a mascot moment because they don't

56:00

the actually claim to want to fundamentally

56:02

change things but all

56:04

that is to say that

56:07

whatever is going to be a vehicle

56:10

for the kind of politics

56:12

that could address these

56:14

fundamental problems with the world and do

56:16

so the way that pence

56:19

with the scale and scope of save

56:21

the climate crisis whatever

56:24

could do that would have to be built because it

56:26

doesn't exist already in the

56:28

us whether it's built within

56:31

the democratic party or entirely

56:34

outside of it or half and half

56:36

or eighty twenty i

56:38

don't much care but

56:41

it does are entirely tactical

56:43

questions and not suffer

56:46

moralizing or principal far as i'm concerned

56:49

but we have to build it because we don't have it

56:51

already and i think that's get

56:54

a point to started funny

56:56

the i think a good place to end this

56:58

has been great fun and i love that

57:00

euro public facing scholar

57:02

and excited keep following

57:05

your career and and see what comes

57:07

next

57:08

the book is elite capture had

57:10

a powerful took over identity politics

57:13

and everything else was else was taiwan

57:15

thank you so much bigger remy

57:26

back conversations is producing air telecast

57:29

are , is amy stuff cast

57:32

cast and master this master or

57:35

theme music was dreamed up by the mysterious break master

57:37

cylinder amber how

57:40

athletes director

57:46

if you like so let us know what

57:48

can we improve we want to hear that were

57:51

, to know what you think what you want

57:53

more us what we can improve and

57:56

if you have ideas for future gas or topics

57:59

send us your thoughts

58:00

last conversation and

58:04

, if you liked this episode please

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share it with your friends and rate and review enjoy

58:09

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