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Friends of DeSoto, if you've been too

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There's

0:53

coffee in that nebula.

1:04

Make it yourself. Here's to the finest

1:06

crew in Starfleet. Engage. Watch your back,

1:09

son. I'm Luke. I'm Captain Cap'n. Bring

1:11

Janeway. The USS Voyager. I'm

1:13

Captain Cap'n. Bring Janeway. The

1:15

USS Voyager. I'm Captain Cap'n. Bring

1:17

Janeway. The USS Voyager. Welcome

1:21

to the Greatest Generation Voyager

1:23

for the last time ever.

1:27

I'm Ben Harrison. I'm

1:29

Adam Pranica. To the podcast,

1:31

if we could call it. Yeah,

1:34

this is our Voyager wrap-up. I

1:37

meant to go back and listen to our

1:39

wrap-up of TNG and our wrap-up of DS9

1:41

to prepare for this, but I

1:45

didn't do that. I went back and re-listened

1:48

to our entire run of Star Trek Voyager.

1:51

Oh, good. But I didn't go back and

1:53

listen to those previous series wrap-ups, so I'm

1:55

just as useless as you are. But

1:58

the series will be fresher in your mind. minds. It

2:01

will be, yeah, it is. Very fresh.

2:04

A lot of this Voyager stuff

2:06

was recorded when I was deliriously

2:08

low on sleep. So you

2:11

know. How much of

2:13

the Voyager run was

2:15

Drowned do you

2:17

think? I don't know. I

2:21

mean, it was a sillier run than the

2:23

Deep Space Nine run, that's for sure. I

2:25

think partly just because Deep

2:27

Space Nine is a darker, more

2:30

brooding show. We

2:32

had our fun on DS9. We did,

2:34

we did. I mean, Voyager

2:36

doesn't have a fuckbokai. Surely

2:40

does not. You got room on your team for

2:42

a switch-hitting third baseman with good power? First

2:44

question, Ben. This one comes in from Cut

2:46

for Time. Who is

2:49

Voyager's fuckbokai? Man, who

2:51

indeed? It's gotta be Irish

2:53

bartender, right? I guess so,

2:55

yeah. Because he's not real.

2:58

He's a hollow man. He is a hollow

3:00

man. He's a stick

3:02

man. Stick hollow man.

3:05

Sure. Fuckbokai definitely a stick

3:08

hollow man. He's

3:10

not a hollow man, he's an imaginary man. Sure.

3:14

I know, I mean, buckbokai, real

3:16

man as hollow man. Right. Fuckbokai.

3:21

Real man as hollow man as greatest

3:23

gen joke. It's subtle.

3:26

So that goes. Is my neck,

3:28

my back, my reproductive sack the closest

3:31

we got to fuckbokai? I think it

3:33

is. In Voyager. And

3:36

FODs out there are starting to hear kind of

3:38

what the format of this episode is going to

3:40

be. Great social

3:43

media manager, Rob Adler, got

3:45

out into those social media

3:47

streets and solicited a

3:50

bunch of prompts and questions from

3:52

our audience and a bunch of them came in. I'm going

3:54

to be reviewing those over the course of

3:56

the episode. Also have some meaningful

3:59

statistics. Yeah, and

4:01

a whole bunch of other fun surprises been

4:03

you know we may even Give

4:06

out our Mount Nook moors and Mount

4:08

armises over the course of this experience

4:11

But this is just yeah looking back

4:13

over the entire series now that we

4:15

have completed our rewatch I

4:17

think we should get right into it. What do you say?

4:20

What's up? Let's not do a big long Maron now forget

4:22

it it is the

4:25

prospective episode of Star

4:28

Trek Voyager the television series This

4:31

is the only one we're gonna do episode

4:34

one of that Before

4:42

we start answering listener

4:44

questions, I did want to

4:46

talk about the ending and the

4:48

themes of the ending and What

4:51

we liked and what we didn't like about the way

4:53

they chose to Wrap

4:55

the series up. I think

4:58

a big unresolved theme for

5:00

me Was what

5:02

will happen to the Mayquise

5:04

Mayquise and seven when they

5:06

return like they sort of

5:08

resolve? The Neelix question

5:10

like what is Neelix even going to

5:12

fucking do when they get to earth? By

5:15

just writing him off the show a couple

5:17

episodes before But

5:20

this huge question in my mind at the end

5:22

of all this like how does life

5:25

look for a chakote or

5:27

a BLT now that they're

5:29

back and you

5:31

know, we don't get any of these

5:34

like people being reunited with their Tom's

5:36

Mervyn's or their

5:38

mom and dad and Harry Kim's case

5:42

or their Admiral father and

5:45

Tom Parris's case At

5:47

the end of the finale So I

5:49

thought I thought we should talk about

5:52

that a little bit at at the very

5:54

least here on this wrap-up episode Just

5:57

Hearing you describe what we

5:59

got versus. Maybe what we had

6:01

hoped to. See.

6:04

Made. Me think about just how much

6:06

of an investment was made and so

6:08

many characters. Post. Return lives

6:10

like this is often. A

6:13

topic of conversation. Had

6:15

among many. Of the

6:17

main characters and it seems

6:19

very unfair to get so

6:22

much build up to something

6:24

that we never experience whatsoever

6:26

there, and I think that's

6:29

that's the main thrust of

6:31

my. Feelings. About it is

6:33

that if you weren't going to pay

6:35

that off white. Burn. All

6:37

those cycles on, all of

6:39

those intimate conversations had and

6:41

so many places about what

6:43

you hope. Will. Happen what you

6:46

think will happen, what your fears are once

6:48

you get their own. For so many characters

6:50

on the show, the return home was going

6:52

to be a mystery and maybe even something

6:54

to fear. Simmer. Which writer

6:56

was but one of the writers

6:58

on the finale. I

7:02

read something or who was speculating like did

7:04

we do and all good things that was.

7:06

This just another all good things and. I

7:09

don't think that it's quite just another all

7:12

good things but it does borrow lot from

7:14

all good things in the lights. Future.

7:16

Version of Janeway? You know,

7:18

trying to put things right.

7:21

Was. An. Awful.

7:24

Question to ask if you're

7:26

the creator as. Have

7:28

a saying it has a thing

7:30

in general and specifically a Star

7:32

Trek thing. Why would you even

7:34

invite the comparison? So here's my

7:37

spicy alternate ending idea for Voyager.

7:39

What if. There. Had been

7:41

a scenario that they built

7:43

up where. The. Ship was

7:45

like it's like. The. ship gets

7:48

destroyed or the ship goes home or

7:50

the two sides of the binary like

7:52

something is going to happen and if

7:54

certain conditions are satisfied the ship goes

7:56

home and if they are not zip

7:58

is destroyed as living my entire

8:01

career under this threat. So

8:07

the cost to prevent ship destruction

8:09

is a large portion of the

8:11

crew, basically going on

8:14

a suicide mission or leaving

8:16

in a way that is even higher

8:18

risk. And I think

8:21

it would have been an interesting way

8:23

to explore the themes of like commitment

8:26

to ideology. Like the Makewees by

8:28

and large left Starfleet to go

8:31

be terrorists. Like what

8:33

about their personalities drove them to like

8:35

committing to a much more extreme

8:40

existence for the rest of their lives

8:43

and like, would that come back into play

8:45

in a scenario like this? Like we might

8:47

not have a great future to look forward

8:49

to when we do get home anyways. So

8:52

we'll take this risk on behalf

8:54

of everyone else because we're wired like that

8:56

with some of them chicken out and not.

8:59

Well, I tell you what, Janeway

9:02

would never allow it to happen

9:04

unless she were going

9:06

to lead such a mission. Sure. So

9:08

I, in absorbing this theory,

9:11

I want to ask you, what if

9:14

Janeway died at the end of the series,

9:17

you know, leading a group of

9:19

folks, as you've described, does that not

9:21

enshrine her maybe at the top of

9:23

the mountain of great Starfleet captains? Given

9:26

how little they ended up using her

9:29

and I'm setting aside the Star Trek

9:31

prodigy aspect of it, but

9:33

in the decades that followed Voyager up

9:35

until new Star Trek, I

9:37

mean, she was a cameo. Right.

9:39

And that was it. I suppose that

9:41

that removes a lot of books out

9:43

of the bookstores, but I don't know,

9:46

I asked a similar question about Neelix. Like,

9:49

wouldn't you rather have killed him? Right.

9:51

If that was going to be his ending. I

9:54

do really like your idea, Ben,

9:56

like the idea that it's a

9:58

greater sacrifice, but the sacrifice. we

10:00

get is a future Janeway willing

10:03

to die knowing that her timeline will

10:05

be undone if there is

10:07

a hidden success anyway. Do you

10:09

feel like that's a hollow sacrifice

10:11

then? Yeah, like it's Janeway that's

10:13

willing to die to make things

10:16

right, but Janeway lives in

10:18

the end anyways. They get to have their

10:20

cake and eat it too in the doctor's

10:22

room. What

10:24

a fucking controversy it would have been if

10:26

they'd ended the series with Janeway making

10:30

some grand self-sacrifice to

10:32

get everyone home. And

10:34

alternately just the Makewees or

10:36

some subset of the Makewees

10:38

were Chukote making some grand

10:41

self-sacrifice. I think

10:43

that a very modern TV

10:45

idea that everything has to have

10:47

these huge operatic themes and we

10:50

have to be able to understand characters

10:52

in those terms. And I think that

10:55

one thing I like about the

10:57

90s television is even though the

10:59

shows maybe have simpler stories, I

11:02

think the characters get to be a little bit

11:04

more three-dimensional because they don't have to just be

11:06

a motif that is personified.

11:10

But I don't know, I thought that would

11:12

have been an interesting place to

11:14

go. Another idea I had was like what if

11:17

they got home in like season

11:19

seven, episode 15 and

11:24

a bunch of the rest of the

11:27

story is about reintegrating

11:29

about answering questions about what

11:31

happened about, I don't

11:33

know, maybe you could have a lost we

11:35

have to go back moment. Well, why not

11:38

both of those things, Ben? Say a

11:40

Voyager with Chukote in

11:42

command returns through the

11:44

hole and the last six

11:47

episodes are what happened. And

11:49

it's a crew grappling

11:51

with the grief of their lost

11:54

friends and family that had to sacrifice

11:56

to stay behind the grief of a

11:58

crew about their fallen and Captain.

12:00

Why did that have to happen to

12:03

Naomi Wildman? Yeah, you joke.

12:05

But I'm sure a lot of the

12:07

Admiralty would have a question like, why

12:09

did you do it that way?

12:12

Yeah. And the idea of

12:14

a person having to answer for making an

12:16

impossible decision, and one

12:18

that affects them so deeply, and in

12:21

many cases, like emotionally, I think

12:24

that would be really powerful

12:26

TV, but maybe

12:28

the sort of TV that doesn't get

12:30

made in this time period. Maybe it's

12:33

too hard to look at this through

12:36

past lenses, and too easy

12:38

to look at it through modern television

12:41

lenses, you know? All that being

12:43

said, I think it

12:45

is a great seven seasons that just has a

12:48

bit of a bummer finale, and like

12:51

the number of TV shows whose

12:54

last episodes aren't quite

12:56

up to par relative to

12:59

the series that preceded them is enormously

13:03

high. It is a very

13:05

tricky thing to tie up seven seasons and

13:07

150 some odd episodes or whatever. I

13:12

wonder if in a weird way, just

13:14

because the track record of series finales

13:16

is what it has

13:18

become over the years. Do

13:21

you think the stakes aren't as high as

13:23

we might assume they are, given

13:26

that if it

13:28

works great, I

13:30

still don't have a job after that? If

13:32

it doesn't work, we tried as

13:35

much as we ever did, and it didn't work,

13:37

and I still don't have a job after that?

13:40

I wonder if there's some sort of

13:42

weird thinking about it in that way,

13:44

because I'm not talking about

13:46

specifically about Star Trek even,

13:48

but just generally on TV. In

13:51

that series finale, it

13:53

seems so difficult to stick that landing. I've got

13:55

to wonder if part of it is just you

13:57

don't get more time for a series. You

14:00

get to take as much time as you ever

14:02

got. So maybe it's like, fuck us. Like,

14:05

why are our expectations so much

14:08

higher for something that only ever has

14:10

the same amount of resources

14:13

to create? Yeah. I

14:15

mean, I think that that's a great point. Like

14:18

the papers that I was turning in second

14:21

semester senior year were not my

14:24

best work. And I think that

14:26

the teachers were willing to forgive

14:28

that because they know what's up,

14:30

you know? They know everybody has

14:32

one foot out the door. Should

14:34

we be more forgiving teachers? That's

14:37

the question I'm rolling around in

14:40

my mind right now. I'm

14:42

going to block this. You're

14:45

just going to give us seven minutes,

14:48

this one. Ben, speaking

14:50

of this finale, statistic for

14:52

you. Star Trek Voyager debuted to

14:54

21.3 million viewers. Wow.

14:59

Any guesses how many viewers saw

15:01

the series finale? Just

15:07

a little high with that. 5.5 million viewers. They

15:13

really bled over the course of the

15:15

series. How would you explain

15:17

that? I think that happens with every

15:19

show. People are excited to see the

15:21

new thing, and seven years later, you're

15:24

going to lose some viewers. I mean,

15:26

that happens everywhere except Star Trek podcasts.

15:28

Our hockey stick continues in

15:31

the upward direction. Thank you for

15:33

calling it a hockey stick and not something else because

15:35

it just keeps getting bigger

15:37

and bigger. Yeah. I

15:39

imagine like lost in the Sopranos

15:42

and shows that are really like zeitgeisty

15:44

like that, maybe

15:46

it goes the other way like you get. I

15:49

remember like when Seinfeld was in its last season,

15:51

like the evening news, like

15:53

the local evening news would have stories about it's about

15:55

to be the last season of Seinfeld. Like it was

15:57

such a huge deal. Imagine

16:01

getting that kind of free

16:03

press. Incredible. I know.

16:05

No local evening news has ever

16:08

done anything about the Greatest Generation.

16:11

To their detriment, I think. I think

16:13

this is a big part of why

16:15

newspapers and news organizations in general are

16:17

suffering in our modern Americas.

16:19

Not enough Greatest Gen coverage

16:21

for the people's liking, you know? I don't

16:23

think it's their fault. I think we just

16:26

need to do something newsworthy. I

16:29

say as I put on Joker makeup. I

16:37

wonder how that played into that

16:39

morale of the writers room, morale

16:42

of the production staff. If

16:44

not that many people are even watching, like another

16:47

reason to ask yourself, how hard are

16:49

we even going to try on this

16:51

thing? To compare

16:53

it to podcasting

16:56

again, how many folks

16:58

have you ever had the conversation with

17:00

about how to do a

17:02

podcast gave theirs up after

17:05

six weeks because not

17:07

enough people in their mind were listening? Right.

17:10

Not enough people in my mind are listening to

17:12

the Greatest Generation, and it's a ton of work,

17:14

and I think we should probably quit. We

17:17

edit that part out at the beginning of every

17:19

episode. This

17:23

bit leave in, Wendy, because people will

17:25

be interested to hear that that is

17:27

always on the table every time we

17:30

step up to the microphones. Ben, I

17:32

have a few more statistics here

17:34

to share that I think you'll be interested

17:36

in. You and so many

17:38

FODs out there wanted us to

17:41

do some sort of academic count

17:44

of the many things that didn't quite add up over

17:46

the course of the show. Things

17:48

like the torpedo

17:50

continuity. Many, many

17:52

FODs asked a question about what

17:54

we thought of the

17:57

initial complement of torpedoes versus how

17:59

many... We saw fire during the series.

18:01

Yeah, and then how many we imagined

18:03

would be Remaining did

18:06

you go back through? And

18:08

also rewatch the entire series when you

18:10

were re-listening to all of our records

18:12

I did Then you

18:14

might remember 38

18:17

torpedoes worth the total number of

18:19

torpedoes Kept

18:21

on Voyager when it when it made

18:23

its journey to the Delta quadrant of

18:25

its 38. How many do you

18:28

believe are shamed? Over

18:30

the course of the series they

18:32

were firing full spreads right up

18:34

to the very end of the

18:37

series So I'm gonna

18:40

I'm gonna guess that they just used them all up. I'm

18:42

gonna say they fight they had 38 they fired all 38

18:46

Ben you're correct. They did shoot all 38,

18:49

but in total they shot 123

18:53

photon torpedoes On

18:56

Star Trek Voyager, I would cite

18:58

my sources for all of these

19:00

statistics However, they came from

19:02

a number of different places and

19:04

I was too busy watching old

19:07

episodes of Star Trek Voyager to To

19:10

note all of them. So apologies to all

19:12

of the folks who actually did the work

19:14

here that I then stole For

19:19

use here, you know who you are and

19:21

we we appreciate you Ben

19:23

interesting thing about the number because

19:28

Harry Kim Copulated with 123

19:32

distinct alien species Wow over the

19:34

course of this show. It's

19:36

voyagers 47, you know, like

19:39

it's a number that just kind of keeps popping up who

19:41

knows why 123

19:43

minutes the average amount of Fornication

19:46

time Wow. All right that Harry

19:49

Kim spent with each one. Hell.

19:51

Yeah, Harry Kim Two

20:00

are you. American?

20:03

Who else? Irish

20:06

and your Mom very proud boys.

20:08

Harry him that lasted twenty two

20:10

and your mom very proud married

20:12

to him. Boy you arrogant. How

20:16

many times do you guess?

20:18

Captain. Janeway ordered self destruct

20:21

on Voyager. It sure did

20:23

feel. Like. A lotta

20:25

times rate pin. I think that they

20:27

must have done it about once a

20:30

season on T N G. Some.

20:33

Wondering if. Voyager.

20:35

Was more or less than their. Money.

20:38

Go a little less. I'm gonna go. Five

20:41

self destructs you really

20:44

close. The here's the

20:46

thing. Janeway only

20:49

ordered self destruct three

20:51

times. Okay, one of

20:53

those three times was bought to like.

20:55

She was unable to do it because

20:57

the computer would not. Accept

21:00

the order, Sir

21:02

rest were threats didn't see

21:05

threat. All the time to blow

21:07

up the ship. I think that's the thing

21:09

that sticks in your mind is how willing

21:11

she was to do is, right? Yeah, seed.

21:14

It's. Result Park They're all had

21:17

no self destruct spell her

21:19

tattle. Yeah, I think her

21:21

reputation is one of a

21:23

a hair trigger self destruct

21:26

her. There without may be going

21:28

all the way through it. See.

21:31

A Felix had a ship that

21:33

got invaded. So much more than.

21:36

So many other Starfleet

21:38

captains. We. Are so

21:40

fond of talking about like I

21:42

think that the image of. A.

21:45

Bunch of bad guys marching down

21:47

the hallways of Voyager. Like

21:49

having already taken over

21:52

Voyager when the episode

21:54

starts more viruses taking

21:56

over Voyager. That

21:58

that feels like. The big

22:00

part of of this series in particular

22:02

is how vulnerable the ship. Was.

22:05

Made to feel over and over again. One.

22:07

Hundred and fifty two crew people.

22:10

With. The total crew compliments on

22:12

Voyager. When. It left for

22:15

it's mission. then. How. Many

22:17

people died. While. I feel like

22:19

have a ton day in. The.

22:21

Caretaker. Parts. One

22:23

and two. On both

22:25

ships. Do. They make at home

22:28

with like a hundred and twenty. I'm.

22:30

Going say they get mack with one twenty.

22:32

One. Thirty Seven. Is

22:34

what and which means fifteen. Crew.

22:37

People died. Yet, But

22:39

I guess you made a

22:42

crew person with Naomi Wildman

22:44

See, you're making news. And

22:47

and seven and hm yeah

22:49

I guess this is a

22:51

statistic as outs people dying

22:54

and that re replacements. Yeah.

22:56

For the crew compliment, I think

22:59

that the I'd Doesn't Die and

23:01

that opening episode and then when

23:03

you add the May Queen Anne's

23:05

your Naomi send your sevens back

23:07

him. That bad. It's

23:10

as if it's been over

23:12

under this team. shuttles destroyed

23:14

on Star Trek. Voyager is

23:16

a serious when you go

23:18

man. Ah, I'm. A

23:21

minute takes I'm gonna take the

23:23

over. I feel like they went

23:26

through settles pretty willy nilly. You

23:28

gotta bend. sixteen shuttles. assess assess

23:30

of the destroyed on Star Trek

23:32

Voyager. Just an amazing number. Have

23:35

more than two seasons. And.

23:38

Credible. Been are those

23:40

are all of the statistics. I was

23:42

able to find out that those were

23:44

the most interesting ones. Adam.

23:46

I have one little little block

23:49

of First Statistics here. I was

23:51

reading about all of the different

23:53

ways that they sped their trip

23:56

up a little bit. ads. There.

23:58

Were. categories such

24:00

as shortcuts, technology

24:04

boosts, and

24:06

then unsuccessful trip-shortening

24:08

attempts. So there

24:10

are a number of episodes in which they got 5,000 or

24:13

10,000 extra light years closer

24:17

to Earth. And

24:19

I wondered if you could guess how many shortcuts

24:22

they took, how many

24:24

technology boosts they got, and then

24:27

how many unsuccessful attempts

24:29

they made at shortening their

24:31

trip. I want to

24:33

go in reverse order. How many unsuccessful

24:36

attempts do they have? I'm

24:38

going to guess less than

24:40

one per season. I'm going to guess

24:42

six. There were

24:45

four unsuccessful trip-shortening

24:47

attempts. The episode

24:49

Eye of the Needle, the episode Prime

24:51

Factors, which was that, like, of

24:54

these people are prime-directiving us, have

24:58

a sad future's end and

25:00

inside man. So

25:02

I guess the endgame, the finale, maybe

25:04

we leave out because that's the

25:08

final trip-shortening attempt. How

25:10

many technology boosts do

25:12

you think that they used? I'm

25:14

going to guess far less. I'm going to guess

25:17

two. The article I

25:19

read counted four. The Voyager Conspiracy,

25:21

Dark Frontier, Timeless, and Hope and

25:24

Fear. Do you want to take a

25:26

guess on how many shortcuts they found?

25:29

I don't know, four? Three.

25:32

So there was a shortcut in Year of

25:34

Hell, there was a shortcut in Night,

25:38

and there was a shortcut in Q2. That's

25:41

right. Q was so

25:44

kind. To give a little nudge. A

25:46

little nudge. I mean, could have done more.

25:49

As always. I guess the

25:51

gift when Kes comes back

25:53

and gives them a mind push,

25:56

you could probably count that as a technology

25:58

assist, right? And then drag it. teeth,

26:00

they found a subspace corridor. I mean,

26:03

they were a lot closer by the end than

26:05

they thought they would be

26:07

at that point, you know? Like, it starts as

26:09

a 75-year journey, and it was down to

26:11

like, I think I had like 30 or

26:13

40 years left on the trip by the time

26:16

Endgame came around. That's like

26:18

a career for some

26:20

people, you know? Not too bad.

26:23

Yeah. All right, Ben. Let's

26:25

get into some questions from FODs.

26:27

What do you say? I

26:38

love that idea. Now, Ben,

26:40

we received questions from

26:42

just about everywhere FODs

26:44

gather. The Discord, the Facebook,

26:48

X, Blue Sky, etc.,

26:50

etc. This first one comes from

26:52

the Discord at drunkshimota.com. Vitas Ed

26:55

says, For me, I know

26:57

that I started out the series really hating Neelix,

26:59

but by the end I thought the character had

27:02

grown a lot, especially after Cass

27:04

left, and now I consider him a

27:06

great part of the show. I'm wondering

27:08

if you felt similarly, and maybe it

27:10

would be a good topic for the

27:12

retrospective to see how he evolved as

27:14

the seasons progressed. I feel

27:16

very similarly. I mean, I think that he

27:19

was written to be a

27:21

very silly character, comic relief

27:24

character initially.

27:26

And while I think

27:28

he hung on to that in a lot

27:30

of ways, he became

27:32

a lot larger than just joke

27:34

guy in the course of the show. And

27:37

I really liked, you

27:40

know, his final episode where he's on the bridge and

27:43

questions are being asked about like what

27:46

does he even do here? And, you

27:49

know, some of his fellow crewmen really

27:51

hold him down and say, you

27:53

know, he serves so many roles, it would

27:56

be impossible for him to just have one

27:58

station. I mean, it's like... It's fun

28:00

to like take ones off

28:02

the top rope about like his

28:04

food being bad and like the show

28:07

definitely didn't do anything to disabuse

28:09

anyone of thinking his food was

28:12

bad. But yeah,

28:14

like I wind up

28:16

really liking Neelix toward the end.

28:18

I think a lot like a

28:22

comic who digs a hole early

28:24

in the set only to like

28:27

exert themselves getting out of it. I

28:29

think maybe starting Neelix off the way that

28:32

he was in this series is

28:34

like an example of that. It

28:36

seems incredibly difficult to start off a

28:38

character with all of these, I'm going

28:42

to say like social deficiencies and

28:45

then redeem him by the

28:47

end of it. There were so

28:49

many reasons to dislike Neelix,

28:51

but I think maybe a

28:53

lesser actor would not have made him

28:55

redeemable. I think what Ethan Phillips does

28:58

with Neelix season after season

29:00

in digging out of that hole is kind of

29:03

a minor Star Trek miracle. And

29:06

I do wish he got a better goodbye

29:08

than the one that he got. I'll

29:11

say it again, I wish he died. I

29:13

think that would have been a spectacular ending for him. But

29:15

as it was a character

29:17

that did get better and better, but

29:19

he started at the absolute rock bottom

29:22

for me. A character that I resented,

29:25

a character that I did not like

29:27

and was frustrated by. And

29:30

the many storylines he was a part of. But

29:33

by the end, he wasn't just like a net

29:35

neutral to the stories he

29:38

was involved in. Like he was a positive

29:40

aspect and an interesting aspect to those stories.

29:43

So yeah, I think he could be

29:45

one of the best examples of Star

29:47

Trek character redemption. He sort

29:49

of strikes me as

29:51

having been inspired by

29:54

the character of Quark. Like

29:57

when you're breaking what your new series.

29:59

series is going to be, you're looking at

30:02

the old series and like, you

30:04

know, I think TNG inspired

30:07

like a lot of the roles and

30:10

character types that they had on DS9 and

30:12

then DS9 goes on

30:15

to inspire the roles and character types they have

30:17

on Voyager. And I mean,

30:20

I'm just thinking about like costuming for

30:23

Neelix and Quark very similar, like

30:25

very, very loud patterns and colors

30:28

and stuff. And then you

30:31

can't make Neelix a

30:34

criminal element aboard the ship or it

30:37

doesn't work, you know, like, they would

30:39

just get rid of him if he

30:41

was Quark in a Voyager context. Yeah.

30:45

So he has to be like,

30:48

in a certain way, it's like the

30:50

most challenging character to write because he's

30:52

got to be like there for fun

30:54

and hijinks the way Quark is, but then

30:56

they have to round off all of Quark's

31:00

prickly edges that, you know, make

31:02

him slightly villainous, you know,

31:04

put him in that interesting

31:06

gray area. Like Neelix has to be

31:09

there for the hijinks, but always the goodest

31:12

guy, you know, at the end

31:14

of the day. He's always coming from a good place.

31:16

He's never self-serving. It's interesting

31:19

that in many

31:21

of the disturbing

31:25

aspects of Neelix

31:27

being a companion for a very

31:30

young person in Cass in

31:33

a bad way, in a creepy

31:35

way, he then ends up

31:38

becoming a companion to another younger

31:41

person in a great way. Right.

31:43

In a caretaker way, if

31:45

you will. And I

31:48

wonder how intentional that was

31:51

as a choice. Yeah. Interesting

31:53

that Naomi Wildman is also from

31:55

a species that ages at a

31:57

really accelerated rate. Yeah. Yeah. But

32:00

they like, maybe there was some

32:04

feeling of we need

32:06

to launder this character through another

32:10

juvenile that ages

32:12

at an accelerated rate. Ben,

32:14

related question. I want

32:17

to make sure I call out from Reasonable Bloke,

32:19

what did you dislike at the beginning of Voyager

32:21

that you came to appreciate later? I

32:23

think it is Neelix for me. I think

32:25

that's the best example. Yeah,

32:27

I think that another one

32:30

I'll raise is the like, chakote,

32:33

fake Native American-ness

32:35

stuff that, you know, I

32:37

think we have

32:40

talked to death, hopefully, the

32:43

ways in which that sucked. But I've

32:46

also, you know, had a few

32:48

conversations since starting Voyager

32:50

with members of the Native

32:53

American community that are like, you

32:55

know, like that does suck. But we also

32:57

really like chakote as a

32:59

character, because honestly, like, we don't get

33:01

that many positive representations in

33:04

media. And it was cool to have something in

33:07

Star Trek. And,

33:09

you know, I think that

33:11

both things can be true. Like, there's

33:13

the things about it that we can

33:15

decry. I think it got way better

33:17

over the course of the series, like

33:19

first few interactions he has about his

33:21

heritage in the show are just like,

33:24

yikes, like this

33:28

might as well have been written in like

33:30

the 1830s, the way they're talking

33:32

to him about it. And then, you

33:34

know, by the end, like, they really like

33:37

use the pan flute pretty sparingly and in

33:40

much better selected scenarios,

33:42

I thought. He

33:44

was the only one with the musical theme, wasn't he? Yeah.

33:48

Come to think of it. Yeah. So

33:51

we had that going for him. Ben

34:01

off at the Discord Starborn in the

34:03

Sky asks maybe a

34:05

question about the Voyager Battlestar

34:09

Galactica connection, but

34:12

do you think Voyager would have been successful if the

34:14

stakes had been similar to

34:16

the situation of Galactica with limited

34:18

resources, like truly limited resources, and

34:21

fewer crew people, or

34:24

maybe a less crew person and make we

34:26

as cohesion? Hmm, interesting.

34:29

Yeah, because I mean, I haven't

34:31

watched all of BSG, but the

34:35

idea is that they're

34:37

always on the run. They're always losing

34:39

people. It's like, they're always

34:41

right on the knife edge. So

34:44

do you take this question to be like,

34:46

what if Voyager had been always on the

34:48

knife edge the entire time? Would it have

34:50

been a better show? I

34:52

think the best we could ask

34:54

for for television of this era

34:57

is the very

34:59

special episode, like the

35:01

exhaustion you feel after a year

35:04

of hell storyline. Like,

35:07

could you sustain something like that for

35:09

26 episodes?

35:12

Year after year, you really couldn't. Yeah. But

35:15

I mean, Battlestar Galactica was

35:17

a bleak show

35:19

for dozens of episodes. And

35:23

my appetite for it was not

35:25

satiated. Like, I could have gone

35:27

longer with that show. I

35:30

just don't think that that's a

35:32

brand that Star Trek goes

35:34

for, like bleak

35:38

as a concept. I wonder if

35:40

it would have really felt like a Star

35:42

Trek show at a certain point. I

35:44

think that's also hearing you bring up the

35:46

number of episodes per season. It might

35:49

be an artifact of

35:51

this era of television that you couldn't

35:53

afford to go as hard and as

35:55

bleak over 26 episodes as you

35:58

can over 13 or more. whatever.

36:00

Like when your episode

36:02

order is an episode

36:05

a week for half of the year, like it's

36:08

a lot to ask people to tune back

36:10

in to experience

36:13

like deprivation and stress every

36:15

single time they watch your

36:17

show. And you know,

36:20

I think about a show like Val

36:22

Star Galactica or The Wire or Breaking Bad, you

36:24

know, any of those shows that kind of like

36:27

go into the darkness and never come back

36:29

out, I don't know if they would have

36:31

worked in, you know, in a 26 episodes

36:35

a season paradigm, you

36:37

know. I think maybe that is

36:39

what helps to make it

36:41

work on modern prestige

36:44

television. In a 10 episode season,

36:46

I think your

36:48

appetites are different totally

36:50

for that kind of tone. And

36:52

it's more palatable if

36:55

it's 10 or 12 episodes versus 26. It has to be.

36:58

We hear all the time people

37:00

want to go back to longer

37:03

seasons of shows. Can

37:06

you imagine the bitching about that though? Like were

37:08

we to get a 26 episode season? The

37:12

cries of filler that we get every

37:14

time an episode in a

37:16

26 episode season wasn't

37:18

an absolute fucking banger. Yeah,

37:20

you couldn't compete as a

37:22

television show now. Like imagine

37:24

the Star Trek Discovery writers

37:26

room being given a 26

37:29

episode order. Like there would not, like

37:31

these are writers that

37:34

probably wouldn't know what to do

37:36

with that, you know. The people

37:38

that we have working in the industry

37:40

now are good

37:42

at writing arcs, you know. Like it's,

37:45

you can over 10 episodes of

37:47

TV write something that is a

37:49

satisfying story with a beginning, middle,

37:52

and end. Like I don't think

37:54

that we could really realistically keep

37:56

track of a 26

37:58

episode arc that... every

38:00

single episode addresses

38:02

and moves forward, you know?

38:05

Like I know when DS9 did big long

38:07

arcs, like they never went more

38:09

than like six or seven episodes, right?

38:12

I wonder if we're trending

38:14

toward an even tighter shrink

38:17

in the years ahead. Like,

38:19

are we going to get

38:21

fewer episodes per season, even

38:24

still, with storylines

38:26

that arc even shorter?

38:29

That's a movie. Eventually you get to

38:31

movie. Yeah. The movie and movies are

38:33

getting longer and longer. So like,

38:35

is there an argument to be made for taking

38:38

a Killers of the Flower Moon and

38:40

lopping it into four 45

38:43

minute episodes and

38:45

just calling it a special mini

38:48

series event or something, you know? Beeps

38:50

asked a very similar question and more

38:52

to the point. Do you think Voyager

38:54

would have been a better or a

38:57

worse show if the writers

38:59

had hewed more toward their resource limitations?

39:03

I think the better or worse

39:05

is so hard to answer because... It's

39:08

different for sure. Over

39:10

26 episodes, I think it's

39:12

exhausting. 26 episodes

39:14

a season. I think early on

39:16

it's a better show if it's

39:20

just a mad dash from place

39:22

to place to get the things that you

39:24

need to survive. But I

39:26

don't think that's sustainable over seven seasons. I

39:28

think eventually you need to

39:30

find a cache of those things that

39:33

gets you onto a different kind

39:35

of storytelling. Yeah, I think

39:37

that this question is

39:40

one that we jokingly asked all the way

39:42

through the series, like

39:44

how many of these torpedoes do

39:46

we even have left? How many of these shuttlecraft

39:49

do we even have left? I

39:51

mean, the show, I think, sort

39:54

of does itself a disservice, not establishing

39:56

like, oh, we pulled into a port

39:58

and they have... similar

40:00

enough kind of warhead

40:03

that we can replicate our photon torpedo casings

40:05

and put this type of warhead in

40:07

it and We re-armed the

40:09

ship this week But that's a little

40:11

bit more like a video game Storytelling

40:13

mechanic than a movie or

40:15

TV show storytelling mechanic like you

40:18

want your Hero in your

40:20

movie or TV show to be you

40:22

know going through shit and it gets harder

40:24

and harder and harder until at the end

40:27

your hero perseveres And

40:30

in a video game, it's sort of like reverse

40:32

right like you get the bigger gun and the

40:34

cooler car And the

40:36

better armor and all that stuff the

40:39

further you go in and it enables

40:41

you to you know face Bigger,

40:44

you know enemies with more XP or whatever Does

40:47

that feel like a kind of show that would be

40:50

interesting in a Star Trek? Container

40:53

no, I don't think so because a

40:55

I don't think XP is like a

40:57

concept that maps well onto television

41:00

show because you know

41:03

You know on all your characters walking around

41:05

on screen with their like with

41:08

their stats bar hovering above their head like oh

41:11

Janeway only got only

41:13

got 13 coffee points left and

41:15

you know But I

41:18

wonder in a very specific versus general

41:20

kind of way All

41:22

of our characters need to grow. Yeah, all

41:25

of our characters need to get better through

41:27

their experiences We're not talking

41:29

about like apples on their power bar

41:32

But we are talking about a wharf

41:35

who teaches yoga and stuff

41:37

and grows as a father

41:40

He never takes a parenting class Then

41:47

question from bridge makes Assuming

41:49

the back of the head wasn't an issue I

41:52

can already tell what this questions about

41:55

like perhaps some sort of paper bag

41:57

policy could be implemented Then

42:02

would you totally murder Tuvix or

42:05

technically allow Tuvok and Neelix to

42:07

die? So this isn't either or.

42:10

Tuvix or Tuvok

42:12

and Neelix. You

42:15

do not get and. As

42:18

much as you want and, you can't have it. Listen,

42:21

as much as I love Tim Russ and as

42:23

much as I love Ethan Phillips, I think

42:25

the show is 10 times more

42:27

interesting if the Tuvix episode just

42:29

blindsides us and replaces two characters

42:31

with one character for the

42:33

rest of the series. And it might

42:36

be even more interesting if they had

42:38

saved the dividing them back

42:40

up again for an episode

42:43

two seasons later where it becomes

42:45

clear that Tuvix is going to

42:47

have to self-sacrifice so that

42:49

Tuvok can come back and like do a

42:51

mind meld that Tuvix isn't capable of or

42:53

some shit, you know? That's

42:56

interesting. The idea of just sitting in it. Yeah.

42:59

With Tuvix a

43:01

while. Living with that. Yeah. And

43:04

then feeling the pain of

43:06

losing Tuvix after having grown

43:08

accustomed or tolerating

43:11

his head. I

43:13

think that's a great note because what

43:16

you're suggesting is more pain, like more

43:18

emotional trauma. Yeah. Like

43:21

ultimately, I just want to feel something when I

43:23

watch a show and I think you get two

43:25

bites of that apple for one

43:27

character. Yeah. In a really elegant way

43:30

there, Ben. It seems to

43:32

me that it must be some TV

43:34

contract thing that prevents them from doing

43:36

stuff like that, especially in this era.

43:40

Well plenty of actors take episodes off or

43:42

are not written into episodes

43:45

for a period of time. That's true.

43:47

I think they could have made that happen if

43:50

it were a four episode arc and

43:52

the two in the middle are without

43:54

the Tuvok and Neelix characters. I

43:57

could see that playing. Yeah.

44:00

though that guy probably has his hands full

44:02

like doing all the ship's security and you

44:04

know staffing the mess hall and

44:07

you know massaging Naomi Wildman's

44:09

feet so that she can

44:11

go to sleep every night I'm not sure

44:13

what he did with Naomi Wildman. There

44:16

is no way a child

44:18

of any age wouldn't be horrified by

44:22

a 2vix in their company it would never

44:25

happen. Oh mom 2vix's head

44:27

is under my bed. I

44:30

think it's about intent like

44:33

do 2vok and Neelix

44:36

want to be conjoined

44:38

or was it accidental that they were

44:40

conjoined that it was an accident means

44:43

that I think you need to do all in your

44:46

power to separate them even at the

44:48

sacrifice of a new character. I'm

44:50

with Janeway on this. Janeway did

44:52

nothing wrong. Now we need to

44:54

talk. It's

45:06

been a while right. We should probably catch

45:08

up and we can really do

45:10

that because when you buy a VIP ticket

45:13

to the streaming side of the talk we'll

45:15

get to talk face to face. Think

45:18

of it like a zoom call except funny.

45:20

On the show we tell a lot

45:23

of funny and embarrassing stories and this

45:25

is your chance to share your embarrassing

45:27

Star Trek story with me and Ben.

45:29

But maybe you don't have an embarrassing

45:31

story and you're so cool that's fine

45:33

we'll still be together or we can

45:35

say whatever we want looking at each other

45:38

during. Maybe you have a favorite bit

45:40

you want to come back or a pet you

45:42

want to introduce us to you. You

45:44

could be doing this call from a weird shed

45:46

filled with metal hooks hanging from the ceiling like

45:48

we saw that one time. Can

45:50

you beat the shed with the metal hooks? Let's

45:53

find out. But it's not a contest.

45:55

It's just a chill hang with you

45:57

and me and Ben. it

46:00

as a group you can get a

46:02

few FODs together in that shed filled

46:04

with hooks and we'll have a great

46:07

time at the streaming Cyboctacular. Tickets for

46:09

the show and the meet-and-greet are now

46:11

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49:00

Captain... ...in my

49:02

vehicle... ...with a... ...Captain...

49:07

...in my vehicle... Our

49:10

buddy, Philippe Sobriero, chimes

49:12

in on Instagram and says, character

49:15

growth. How did you

49:17

feel about the main characters of this show in the

49:19

pilot versus at the series

49:22

finale? Maybe we could

49:24

kind of lightning round this one. Do

49:26

you want to take it from the top with

49:29

Janeway? Yeah, I think I do. Catherine

49:32

Janeway, kind of a wonky science nerd

49:34

up top. Yeah, yeah. Did

49:37

great in school, we learned. Like,

49:40

just kind of the classic dorky

49:42

captain you want. Leading a

49:44

science ship, basically. What we

49:46

get at the end, though? Grizzled.

49:51

War veteran, even, you could consider her.

49:53

She's been through some shit. How

49:56

many times does she kick the Borg's ass over the

49:58

course of the series? So many. Pretty

50:01

decisive ass whoopings by Janeway. I

50:03

think Kirk is always going to

50:05

be the most exceptional captain because

50:08

of the sheer brand new things

50:10

that he had to do being

50:12

like the first long range exploring

50:14

Star Trek captain there ever was.

50:17

There was no book or experience of other

50:19

captains who came before him that went as

50:22

far for as long as he did. Well,

50:24

you'll change your tune starting next week. But

50:27

like the only the only ding against

50:29

Janeway is that someone else like

50:32

no one else has gone as far

50:34

as her. But the idea of like

50:36

like first contacting every fucking week encountering

50:39

threats that want to kill you

50:41

every other week like episode after

50:44

episode. No one did that more

50:46

than Janeway. Yeah. And

50:48

she probably violated the prime directive

50:50

fewer times than Picard did despite

50:53

how much more grace and leeway

50:55

she probably would have gotten when

50:57

she like submitted her captain's log at the

50:59

end of their voyage. I

51:01

mean, if you're just starting with generic

51:04

Starfleet captain and

51:07

that is basically what you get with

51:09

Catherine Janeway in episode one, what you arrive

51:11

at at the end is

51:13

an enormous leap. I think

51:16

what you get at the end with Captain

51:18

Janeway is is truly one of the best

51:20

captains. And I think

51:22

the the greatest leap in

51:25

character growth in the whole

51:27

series. There's coffee in that an opportunity

51:29

to grow. Chikote is harder

51:31

to put your finger on like where the

51:34

character growth did and didn't happen. I

51:36

think that most of his character growth

51:39

kind of comes in season one, like

51:41

going from Mayquis to loyal

51:43

first officer. And

51:45

then like every time that loyalty is tested, he

51:48

is kind of unfailingly

51:50

the right guy for the job that

51:53

he was the right pick. And

51:55

I have no idea if this is true or not. I

51:58

read somewhere that Robert Beltran and

52:00

was getting paid like a crazy salary by

52:02

the end because he was sort

52:05

of dissatisfied with how underwritten his

52:07

character was and was basically trying

52:10

to get them to write him off the

52:12

show by asking for a

52:14

fuck you raise. Like he would say like,

52:16

okay, I'll come back but you gotta pay

52:18

me this much. And they were like, okay.

52:21

And he was like, what? Just write me

52:23

off the fucking show. Okay, well, if you're

52:25

gonna pay me that much. We talked about

52:27

it a lot when we were both freelancing.

52:29

Like what's the fuck you number? If

52:32

it's a job you don't want to do, everyone's

52:34

got a number. Yeah. That's

52:36

the number you ask for, for a job you

52:38

don't wanna do. Never say no without a number.

52:41

Yeah, exactly. That's the Chakotay rule. Two

52:44

locks similarly doesn't change

52:46

radically. I mean, Vulcans rarely

52:50

do, right? Yeah, yeah.

52:52

I mean, his debilitating

52:54

mental disease maybe

52:57

creates a downward arc for

52:59

his character growth. Wouldn't you say? Sure,

53:01

sure. BLT I

53:04

think is another interesting case. Like

53:06

I feel it grows a lot more than

53:09

most characters. Through her relationship with

53:11

Tom Paris, I think we could

53:13

probably consider them connected

53:15

in that way in their growth. Absolutely.

53:18

And so much more in control

53:21

of her faculties and her power

53:23

by the end in a cool way. Yeah.

53:28

I also really liked the arc

53:30

that Harry Kim takes. Like I think that the

53:33

criticism that is often leveled at the show that

53:35

they kind of underserved

53:37

his character, didn't

53:39

give him the promotions he was probably due

53:42

because they were more focused on demoting

53:45

and then re-promoting Tom Paris are

53:48

totally valid. And I would have liked a

53:50

few more scenes where we see Harry actually

53:52

get to put it in, but

53:54

he is so green and so, you know,

53:56

wet. behind

54:00

the ears at the beginning of the

54:03

series. He was dating the obvious again.

54:05

Getting conned by Quark in that opening

54:07

episode, and then by the

54:09

end, really feels like

54:11

a capable officer who is

54:14

like, he's definitely

54:16

one of my favorite guys on the show,

54:18

so. We already talked a bunch about Neelix,

54:20

but that kind of leaves the doctor in

54:22

terms of main cast characters.

54:24

I think my main issue with the

54:27

doctor is that he was

54:29

so intentional about displaying

54:32

his growth, promoting

54:34

his growth to

54:36

everyone around him. It

54:40

feels like for most people, those

54:44

parts of themselves are

54:46

mostly private. You experience

54:48

a thing, you learn some

54:50

lessons from it that you can

54:52

take away and apply toward future moments,

54:56

and maybe you're fortunate enough to achieve

54:58

a kind of growth that way, but

55:00

the doctor was so loud

55:02

and broad and made his growth

55:05

into other people's experiences

55:08

or problems that, I mean,

55:10

you could argue successfully that

55:16

the doctor grows most of all, but

55:19

at what cost to

55:22

the rest of the crew, I might argue. Can

55:24

you like program him or something? Yeah, Seven

55:26

and Kes are the two characters that don't

55:29

span the full range of the show. I

55:31

thought they did a nice job with

55:33

Kes's character toward the end. I like

55:36

characters on Star Trek who reject Star

55:38

Trek, and I don't mean the actors,

55:40

I mean the characters. Kes

55:43

by the end was ready

55:45

to freshen everyone up. She

55:47

rejected the premise, and

55:50

I think there's room for that type of character

55:52

in this universe. Yeah, and

55:55

Seven is sort of the opposite of that.

55:57

She sort of starts rejecting the premise. and

56:00

is persuaded more and more

56:03

by her crewmates that

56:06

maybe Star Trek is the way.

56:08

And it's a great character.

56:11

And I loved getting to follow up

56:13

with her in Star Trek Picard. And

56:16

kind of now that we're done with our

56:18

Voyager rewatch, I kind of want to go

56:20

back and do a Star Trek Picard rewatch

56:22

just for the seven of it, you know?

56:25

Like she's such an interesting character and imagining

56:27

the, you know, getting back to Earth

56:30

and then, you know, where we pick up

56:32

her story in Picard is a

56:34

fun thing to think about. What

56:36

happened in those intervening years? The

56:39

Stuck Duck asks, the

56:41

Chikote Seven thing came out of nowhere.

56:45

I know that one holiday episode, but when

56:48

they were stranded together a few epsilators,

56:50

nothing, not even a longing look. Also,

56:53

is it icky that they teased

56:55

Janeway Chikote for seven years only

56:57

to have him choose her younger,

56:59

hotter protege? A lot

57:01

of interesting ideas in this topic.

57:04

Hotter is very subjective, you know?

57:06

I think part of why

57:09

the finale didn't quite work was

57:11

that there was no ramp up

57:13

to that relationship

57:15

that it really did feel out of

57:17

nowhere in the way the Stuck Duck

57:20

describes. I like

57:22

the tension unrealized of a Janeway

57:24

Chikote relationship. I mean, these are

57:27

aspects to many of the great

57:29

television programs of the

57:31

last 20 years. And in

57:33

many of those examples, the eventual

57:35

reality of that relationship brings

57:38

about a lesser quality show

57:40

in the aftermath because that tension

57:42

is released and gone. So.

57:45

Imagine a Cheers where Sam Malone's

57:47

bar has a floor littered not

57:50

with peanut shells, but with the

57:52

halves of snapped pencils. Right,

57:55

right. And he never closes

57:57

the deal with Diane. I mean, Let's

58:00

not blame Chikote here. Sounds

58:02

great. Janeway did

58:05

not want anything to do with him

58:07

and stated it fairly directly when they

58:10

were marooned on Planet Bathtub.

58:13

Right? Yeah. So

58:16

let's not get it twisted. And

58:19

what a tough call for her to make because

58:22

I think that she felt the

58:24

feels but just felt like

58:26

her responsibility outweighed her

58:29

ability to indulge in those

58:32

feels. And I

58:34

respect the hell out of that. I wish that they'd

58:37

drawn a brighter line under that because

58:39

I think that that's one of the things

58:41

that makes her amazing as a captain. Like

58:43

Picard dabbled in

58:45

having a relationship in one

58:47

episode of T.I.G. and I'm

58:50

like, you know, it was like

58:52

touching a hot pan on the stove. He

58:54

pulled his hand right back and was like, no, no, no, no,

58:56

no, no, can't do it. And

58:59

the idea that Janeway was in

59:02

this much more desperate

59:04

situation with no

59:06

shore leave to get

59:08

her rocks off, no way to really

59:10

take care of her intimacy

59:13

needs at all. And

59:16

she monk-like,

59:18

like endures this entire

59:20

experience without many

59:24

romantic interludes at all. And,

59:27

you know, I think that that's like one of

59:29

the things that makes her an amazing captain to

59:31

me is like how great of

59:33

a personal sacrifice that is because I believe

59:35

it is a great personal sacrifice. Right.

59:38

But it's also one that she chose and she

59:40

didn't have to make, I

59:43

contend. I think that Captain

59:45

Snoggin, the first officer, is the

59:48

path to a ship falling apart. I

59:51

think it's a path to a very interesting season. Alright

1:00:01

Adam, we've talked

1:00:04

a lot about

1:00:06

the series Star Trek

1:00:08

colon Voyager, but I

1:00:10

think people would be pretty mad at

1:00:12

us if we didn't give out our

1:00:15

Mount Nookmores and our Mount Armises for

1:00:18

best and worst episodes of

1:00:20

the series. I've picked four for

1:00:23

my Mount Nookmore and

1:00:25

I feel

1:00:27

less sure about this list than I

1:00:29

have about lists in

1:00:32

years past. I

1:00:35

think these are maybe episodes that stuck with

1:00:37

me the most as far as my Mount

1:00:39

Nookmore ones. They're ones that I

1:00:41

like think back to a ton. I

1:00:44

was making this list and I was like, man, I should

1:00:47

probably go back and check if I claimed to

1:00:49

like this at the end of the episode in

1:00:51

which we talked about them, but these are the

1:00:53

ones that I think about all the time from

1:00:56

Voyager. So here's my list. Meld,

1:00:59

which is the one

1:01:02

where Tuvok mines melds with

1:01:04

Lon Suitor. Nemesis,

1:01:08

where we entered the Brawn Zone. And

1:01:11

then a couple of two-parters, Gear of Hell

1:01:13

and Future's End. Gear

1:01:22

of Hell obviously, the time

1:01:25

erasure fight and Future's

1:01:27

End, the, you know, Terry

1:01:29

Silverman, A+. I

1:01:33

think our mountains are

1:01:35

very similar. Meld and Gear of Hell

1:01:37

for sure. I

1:01:39

also thought Timeless was really

1:01:41

great that episode where

1:01:43

we got old Harry Kim working

1:01:46

through the timeline to save a frozen Voyager.

1:01:48

That was cool. I

1:01:51

thought the Scorpion two-parter

1:01:54

was great. Yeah, Scorpion ruled. That

1:01:56

was really fun. And

1:01:59

maybe. Maybe an honorary mountain

1:02:02

posting would be the one where the Borgs with

1:02:04

the big butt was created out of

1:02:06

a lab. That was

1:02:08

great. Yeah. Okay. My

1:02:11

honorary mention is Flashback, the one where

1:02:13

we go back to Star Trek VI

1:02:15

a bunch of times. Oh,

1:02:18

great one. Yeah. Yeah.

1:02:20

All right. Mount Armist. Well,

1:02:24

one of them is going to be Darkling.

1:02:26

You remember that was the one where the

1:02:28

Doctor has those contact lenses that

1:02:30

turns him evil. And

1:02:34

this is a Cass episode too. This

1:02:36

was, I don't know, like

1:02:38

this Jekyll and hiding of the Doctor.

1:02:41

And remember how frizzy his hair was

1:02:43

on the side of his head?

1:02:46

That was wild. The Saw is

1:02:48

a classic Mount Armist episode, even though it

1:02:51

has the great Michael McKeon in it. Just,

1:02:55

I don't know, like when you describe

1:02:57

it as batshit as it is,

1:03:00

like it's worth rewatching. It's

1:03:02

totally bizarre. Yeah. But

1:03:04

like what makes that hell is

1:03:07

like how grating it is like

1:03:09

sonically and visually. It's like an

1:03:11

unpleasant episode to watch also. Yeah.

1:03:14

Yeah. Let's get out

1:03:18

of here. You got it. You know what? There

1:03:21

was the one where I think a lot of mine are

1:03:23

going to involve the Doctor. The one where the Doctor falls

1:03:25

in love with a meet person

1:03:28

and then, oh

1:03:30

my god, she's beautiful

1:03:32

once you take all the loaf off of her.

1:03:36

And then they end on the holodeck like

1:03:38

in the convertible at

1:03:40

make out point. That was no good,

1:03:42

right? I

1:03:46

think those are the ones that come to

1:03:48

mind. Maybe you'll energize some more inspiration

1:03:51

out of me. So

1:03:53

first one on my Mount Armist

1:03:56

is The Fight, which is Chikote's

1:03:58

boxing vision quest episode. Great call.

1:04:00

Yeah, that's got to be on there. That's

1:04:02

got to be on there. Couldn't you have

1:04:05

seen like a, a Chikote

1:04:07

thread where, where like it starts with the

1:04:09

boxing, but then like maybe he goes down

1:04:11

to that planet and builds a bathtub for

1:04:13

Janeway and he's like John

1:04:15

Matrixing around like logs

1:04:18

and shit around like, how did you

1:04:20

coach it gets so buff? Yeah, I

1:04:23

want that storyline. Yeah, that would have

1:04:25

been cool. Two

1:04:27

is the one where they're like on

1:04:31

that like moon and like

1:04:33

Chikote keeps having flashbacks of

1:04:35

his father and it's

1:04:38

like one of the most pan flute

1:04:40

heavy episodes. I don't remember if

1:04:42

I liked any of these or not when we actually

1:04:44

watched them, but I like wince when I think about

1:04:46

that one, you know? How

1:04:49

about the, the episode that's like

1:04:51

Carrie when Paris falls in love

1:04:53

with a, with a ship and

1:04:56

the ship wants to kill his girlfriend. That's

1:05:01

not a great one, right? That

1:05:03

feels like it's bad. Yeah. Once

1:05:05

upon a time, the episode where

1:05:07

Naomi Wildman spends most of the

1:05:09

episode in the holodeck with Flauter

1:05:12

and Trevis. That

1:05:14

one for sure. That, that is a total

1:05:16

mud bath episode. Ben, I'm shocked neither of

1:05:18

us have named Threshold.

1:05:24

I like, I feel like I like Threshold.

1:05:27

I feel like Threshold is on, is on this

1:05:29

side of the Mount Nook,

1:05:31

more Mount Armis Valley for me. We're

1:05:34

going to need an entirely new

1:05:36

episode, an episode of its

1:05:38

own for an argument about Threshold, Ben.

1:05:41

Okay. My final entry for

1:05:43

my Mount Armis is real

1:05:46

life, the episode where the

1:05:48

doctor has a hollow family

1:05:50

that all like, you

1:05:53

know, think about, you know, it's like a 1950s

1:05:55

through a 1980s lens.

1:06:00

This is a 90s. Why

1:06:03

are you doing an 80s thing about a 50s thing? So

1:06:08

many of these are doctor related. Yeah,

1:06:10

the doctor really racked up some

1:06:12

all time cornball episodes.

1:06:14

That one where he's like a

1:06:17

celebrity musician on a planet. That's

1:06:19

right. He was opera man. Oh,

1:06:26

brutal. Getting work

1:06:28

by Robert Picardo throughout the series. Not

1:06:31

his fault. Getting thankless after

1:06:33

thankless after thankless

1:06:35

stories. Amazing.

1:06:40

Yeah, and he

1:06:43

does really cool work now with the

1:06:45

planetary societies. Become

1:06:48

a charitable guy. Had

1:06:50

a lot of fun going through

1:06:53

Mount Nookmores and Mount Armistice with you,

1:06:55

Adam. We've got one more

1:06:57

segment before we get to our P1s

1:06:59

and then our overall series, Shomoda's. Why

1:07:02

don't we get to that segment right now? You

1:07:04

know, I'm going to go to the wrong one.

1:07:10

But I don't know. Ben,

1:07:14

one final question. The last

1:07:16

one we're going to get to on our Voyager

1:07:18

series retrospective episode. How

1:07:21

stoked are you for Enterprise? Oh,

1:07:24

man, I couldn't be more stoked. I

1:07:26

cannot wait. There's a lot about

1:07:28

Enterprise that I really like. I

1:07:31

will say that I am a little bit sad.

1:07:34

Maybe this is telling on myself. I

1:07:37

don't know. I

1:07:39

really like Picard and I really

1:07:42

like Sisko and I really like

1:07:44

Janeway. They are, as the leads

1:07:46

of the series, characters that

1:07:48

I am terribly fond of. I'm

1:07:51

not going to go ahead and rank them right now. But

1:07:54

many, many people asked us to do that.

1:07:57

If you're hoping for that in this

1:07:59

episode. episode. Maybe not this

1:08:02

time. Maybe not this

1:08:04

time, but I will say that

1:08:06

having watched Enterprise, I think I've

1:08:08

watched the first three seasons of

1:08:11

Enterprise and I

1:08:13

have not seen its notorious final

1:08:15

episode yet. So maybe

1:08:17

I've seen like three and a half seasons of it

1:08:19

or something. But I remember

1:08:22

thinking that Bakula was kind of weak

1:08:24

as the captain. So that is one

1:08:26

thing that I am going into Enterprise

1:08:29

with a little bit of trepidation about.

1:08:31

I remember really loving the crew of

1:08:33

Enterprise and feeling like, like, I love

1:08:36

Bakula. I feel like he's great, but maybe

1:08:38

he's not bringing his A-game to this part

1:08:40

or something, or maybe it's

1:08:43

like underwritten or something. But yeah,

1:08:47

maybe I'll have a different take on it this

1:08:49

time. That's the one thing

1:08:51

that I've got some trepidation

1:08:53

about. Yeah. Mixed feelings from

1:08:55

here too, because at the end of every

1:08:58

series, I miss that

1:09:00

series that's happened the last three

1:09:02

times and up ahead as

1:09:04

a series I've never seen

1:09:06

even a moment of. I

1:09:08

am really curious to find out why

1:09:11

Enterprise as a series

1:09:14

is so often kind of ignored

1:09:16

in the conversation. And

1:09:18

I know that there are people who really love Enterprise and

1:09:20

I'm not minimizing their many

1:09:23

great opinions on the show. But

1:09:26

like when you go to a convention or

1:09:29

you talk about Star Trek with people, it

1:09:32

is often not

1:09:35

an actor on the banner or

1:09:37

a great character talked about

1:09:39

when you're arguing who the best captains

1:09:41

or the best minor

1:09:43

characters are. Like, I

1:09:46

don't hear that opinion from

1:09:48

many places and this is not an

1:09:50

invitation to send me those opinions. I

1:09:54

think it is objectively the truth that

1:09:57

for some reason, Enterprise the series. Is

1:10:01

not in the firmament right of when

1:10:03

you think of Star Trek television shows

1:10:05

it's Not

1:10:07

top four and it's not even

1:10:09

close. I want to know why that is and I'm excited

1:10:12

to find out Yeah, I feel

1:10:14

like the yeah the uniform doesn't get

1:10:16

cosplayed You don't see

1:10:19

the ship represented as much and things.

1:10:21

Yeah. Yeah, it's an interesting point But

1:10:24

it's a series that people have a lot of

1:10:26

love for and it's it's one that I've definitely

1:10:28

heard a lot of people Say it was getting

1:10:30

really great when they kind

1:10:33

of unceremoniously cancelled it. So I'm ready to love

1:10:35

it I want to love it. That's what I'm

1:10:37

gonna say right now. I'm going in with an

1:10:39

open mind and an open heart I

1:10:42

want to love it too. I'm really pumped for

1:10:44

it and I'm really pumped to be Watching

1:10:48

that like middle era of Trek is

1:10:50

like pre new Trek post old

1:10:52

Trek It's like I feel

1:10:54

like that's part of it is that it's like

1:10:56

in its no man's land by

1:10:58

itself and It

1:11:01

should be a really interesting time and

1:11:03

it's starting next week and

1:11:05

we have new music for it that Our

1:11:08

buddy Adam, or goose. Yeah has been helping us

1:11:10

put together We actually

1:11:12

went to Visit the

1:11:14

goose in Tennessee to work on this song

1:11:16

and I guess it'll debut right at the

1:11:18

top of the show next week Really

1:11:21

excited for fod's to hear that Adam.

1:11:23

Let's check what we've got in the p1 inbox for

1:11:25

today, huh? Yes,

1:11:37

the interest alone could be enough to buy this

1:11:39

ship The

1:11:42

first p1 is from mom dad Alex

1:11:44

and honor To

1:11:46

Margot goes like this We

1:11:52

congratulated our son your brother

1:11:54

for graduating from medical school

1:11:56

now we congratulate you on

1:11:58

finishing college with a 4.0 in

1:12:01

your major. And your major. And

1:12:03

your major. I

1:12:06

don't believe this. We are

1:12:09

proud of you and love you. Good

1:12:11

luck jaking a shuttlecraft to your new

1:12:13

job as just plain

1:12:15

simple worker. I

1:12:18

am Chief Miles Edward O'Brien. This

1:12:20

is fucking spectacular. Wow.

1:12:24

So triple 4.0 major

1:12:26

is what Margot is? Check

1:12:28

out the big brains on

1:12:30

Margot. I bet

1:12:32

Margot doesn't have an answer to

1:12:34

this question. Why is the

1:12:36

carpet all wet? Time. I don't

1:12:38

know Margot. Margot's

1:12:43

never know the answer to that one.

1:12:45

No. Now they're always asking that question.

1:12:47

Yeah. Wow. I hope you

1:12:50

are graduating toward a

1:12:52

career where you are more than just

1:12:54

a plain and simple worker with that

1:12:56

kind of experience. Get on you Margot.

1:12:58

Yeah. And hey, you

1:13:01

deserve a vacation after working that hard. That's

1:13:03

huge. Don't

1:13:06

let anyone convince you that you

1:13:08

can't take some time off between

1:13:10

college and a life in

1:13:12

the workforce. That's bad

1:13:14

advice. Anyone telling you that

1:13:16

that would be bad for your career or

1:13:18

whatever. That you need to preserve some sort

1:13:21

of continuity between your collegiate

1:13:24

work and your work work. Fuck that.

1:13:26

Take a break. Take a break. Who

1:13:28

knows when you'll get another? Indeed.

1:13:32

Ben, our second priority one message is

1:13:34

from Captain Lazodo and

1:13:36

the dith and all the

1:13:38

cruisers of DeSoto. It's to Ben and Adam.

1:13:40

Their message goes like this. Does

1:13:43

a drink with Robert Bacardo

1:13:45

sound like fun? How about laughing

1:13:47

like mad with Denise Crosby or

1:13:50

perhaps running into BLT

1:13:52

and B dunks in a turbo lift?

1:13:54

Wow. Then come join a great

1:13:56

group of FODs on Star Trek

1:13:59

The Crew. 2025

1:14:02

first round is on me.

1:14:04

Wow! Hey

1:14:08

all of these FODs are great and

1:14:11

familiar long time good

1:14:13

FODs. What are you

1:14:15

doing making commercials for the crews? What

1:14:19

are you doing? Yeah. This should

1:14:21

be a commercial priority one message

1:14:23

guys. It should. First of

1:14:25

all it should be a commercial priority one

1:14:27

message. Second of all it should be coming

1:14:29

in from Star Trek the cruise and it

1:14:32

should just be a commercial commercial. Yeah. That

1:14:34

we get paid full freight for and not

1:14:36

the heavily discounted rate of

1:14:38

a priority one message. Star

1:14:41

Trek the cruise. I think about it all

1:14:43

the time. Yeah. Is 2025 our year

1:14:46

Adam? Oh sure. Yeah

1:14:48

let's make it our year. You

1:14:50

know what you convinced me Captain

1:14:52

Lizotto the Dith and all the cruisers

1:14:54

of DeSoto? I'm there.

1:14:57

Wow you heard it here first. Here's

1:15:01

what's gonna happen we're not gonna tour in 2025 either.

1:15:05

Whoa! Just the crews. Cruise

1:15:09

only. It's gonna be a money out

1:15:11

year not a money in year. They're

1:15:14

all money out years. Well

1:15:19

if you'd like to leave a priority

1:15:21

one message on an episode of the

1:15:23

show you can do it. You just

1:15:25

go to maximumfun.org/Jumbotron

1:15:30

and set it up and it'll

1:15:32

happen. Yeah and with a

1:15:34

brand new series coming up you're gonna

1:15:36

want to get in there for Star

1:15:38

Trek Enterprise. Yeah I'm seeing a lot

1:15:40

of action in our scheduling calendar so

1:15:42

if you got a specific date jump

1:15:45

on it. Hey Ben? What's

1:15:48

that Adam? For the

1:15:50

entire series of Star

1:15:53

Trek Voyager did you find yourself a drunk Shimoda?

1:15:59

Such a... juicy question. I think

1:16:02

I gotta go to Neelix and I feel like it's

1:16:04

a cop-out because Neelix is written to be the drunk

1:16:07

Shimoda of the series. Almost

1:16:09

as if the showrunners

1:16:11

were like, this show needs like a

1:16:14

Shimoda character but in the main cast.

1:16:17

But yeah he's the silliest, he's having the most

1:16:19

fun. Like I feel like setting

1:16:21

the hours and hours and hours in the

1:16:23

makeup chair aside, isn't Ethan Phillips just having

1:16:25

a fucking hoot being on this

1:16:27

show? Yeah, I believe it. I respect the

1:16:29

hell out of Simon that looks like they're

1:16:31

having as much fun at work as he

1:16:33

is. Like he's either having the greatest time

1:16:36

or he's the best actor on the cast

1:16:38

by a long shot. So

1:16:41

yeah, he's my drunk Shimoda. How about you?

1:16:44

Ben, to me it's obvious.

1:16:46

It's obvious because my

1:16:48

nomination for Shimoda of

1:16:51

the series never got

1:16:53

any better. Never grew in

1:16:55

any way. If they grew

1:16:57

in any way it was just more grating. Dr.

1:16:59

Mark. Oh hi Mark. Obviously

1:17:02

the drunk Shimoda of Star

1:17:04

Trek Voyager. Neelix got better.

1:17:07

Neelix became fun. The

1:17:09

doctor, Dr. Mark

1:17:11

was just consistently out

1:17:14

for his own interests. A little bit

1:17:17

creepy. Yeah, creepy a lot of the

1:17:19

time. Maybe a little bit more than

1:17:21

creepy. Totally self-serving for

1:17:23

a medical professional to be as

1:17:25

self-serving as the doctor was. I

1:17:28

don't know. Keep

1:17:30

him away from me. That's all

1:17:32

I got to say. Go

1:17:37

back into your real-life holodeck

1:17:39

program buddy. Yeah,

1:17:41

stay there. Yeah, that's what I

1:17:43

got Ben. Wow, well this has

1:17:47

been a ton of fun, Adam. What

1:17:49

a fun retrospective. What a fun

1:17:52

series. I feel like at

1:17:54

the end of every Star Trek

1:17:57

series I always have a fear

1:17:59

that we're just gonna shed listeners because this

1:18:01

was the last one anyone gave

1:18:03

a shit about. I felt

1:18:05

that when we went to these phase nine. And

1:18:07

then again, when we went to Voyager and now

1:18:09

as we go to enterprise. And

1:18:13

yet I also have felt like it

1:18:15

kind of revitalized our show every

1:18:17

time we've switched series. So

1:18:20

I am a ball

1:18:22

of trepidation and a ball of

1:18:24

optimism over here. That's

1:18:26

Benjamin R. Harrison right there. In

1:18:28

a nutshell. Our show

1:18:30

is continued to grow series after series

1:18:33

because I think it has

1:18:35

much more to do with you and

1:18:37

me than even the subject

1:18:39

we're talking about. I hope that trend continues.

1:18:42

I expect it to. It's going to be a lot of

1:18:44

fun when we start talking about Star Trek enterprise next

1:18:47

week. I guess we don't really have

1:18:49

a game of buttholes. We

1:18:51

don't have anything to roll right now. We'll

1:18:54

be back next week to unveil a

1:18:56

brand new version of our game towards

1:18:58

the end of the premiere episode

1:19:01

of Star Trek enterprise. And

1:19:03

new theme music who dis it's

1:19:06

going to be a big week coming soon.

1:19:09

So with that, we're going to wrap

1:19:11

it up for today. Our thanks to

1:19:13

all of the generous friends

1:19:15

of DeSoto who have

1:19:17

supported this journey by

1:19:19

going to maximumfun.org/join. If

1:19:22

you like this show and like the idea

1:19:24

of continuing with it on into the future,

1:19:27

the best way to ensure that is

1:19:29

becoming a monthly member at

1:19:32

maximumfun.org/join. There's going

1:19:34

to be lots of great bonus content,

1:19:36

especially associated with our

1:19:39

run of enterprise coverage. And

1:19:41

I'm really excited about that.

1:19:45

We got to thank Wendy Pretty, the producer

1:19:47

and editor of this show. Got

1:19:49

to thank Rob Adler who runs our

1:19:51

social media and Bill

1:19:53

Tilly, our Zindy wartime consigliere.

1:19:56

And we got to thank Nick

1:19:58

Ditmore who made our show. and

1:20:00

the great Adam of Lucia who is

1:20:03

hard at work on the next theme

1:20:05

song for this show. Of

1:20:07

course, Dark Materia who let us use

1:20:10

the card song all those years ago.

1:20:13

We really appreciate you as well. And

1:20:15

with that, we'll be back at you next

1:20:18

week with a great episode

1:20:20

of Star Trek Enterprise and

1:20:23

an episode of the

1:20:25

Greatest Generation Enterprise that is looking

1:20:27

forward, not back. Maximum

1:20:48

Fun, a worker-owned network

1:20:51

of artist-owned shows supported

1:20:53

directly by you.