0:15

Pushkin. The

0:21

world is certainly facing a ton of happiness

0:23

challenges, but whenever I feel downhearted

0:25

at the sheer scale of the problems we need to tackle,

0:28

I remember all the people working hard to

0:30

put things right. These days,

0:32

there are so many people in government, in medicine,

0:35

in academia and in the media trying

0:37

to draw attention to the importance of well being that

0:39

they can easily fill a whole conference center.

0:42

The World Happiness Summit WAHA SUE

0:44

for short, has been bringing experts together

0:46

since twenty sixteen to meet,

0:49

swap ideas and give talks to the public.

0:51

This year's summit was in London and I

0:53

went along so I could record a live episode

0:56

of this show with a total rock star of

0:58

the British happiness community. Welcome

1:01

to the WAHASU Live version of The.

1:03

Happiness Lab.

1:08

I am. I'm super excited to introduce

1:10

my guest, Doctor Rungan Chatterjee.

1:13

Doctor Chatterjee is professor of health education

1:15

and communication, the host of the Feel

1:18

Better, Live More podcast, which

1:21

is the most listened to health podcast

1:23

in Europe. He's also the author of five best

1:25

selling books, including his most recent, Happy

1:28

Mind, Happy Life Tends Simple

1:30

Ways to Feel Great every day, and today

1:33

we're going to be talking about why medical doctors

1:35

need to pay even more attention to happiness.

1:38

Will how's the audience.

1:39

Are you all interested in medical doctors paying more attention

1:41

to happiness? Yes, so,

1:46

Rangan, You've long been an advocate

1:48

of the importance of all kinds of healthy practices,

1:51

but lately, in your most recent book, you've

1:53

been making a claim that medical professionals

1:55

also have to pay attention to something else,

1:58

something that historically doctors haven't paid much attention

2:00

to, which is people's happiness.

2:02

Why is a happy life important for

2:05

a healthy life?

2:07

So I've been practicing that for

2:10

over two decades. Okay, So during

2:13

that time, I've seen tens of thousands of patients,

2:16

and it's very clear to me, and

2:18

it's very clear in the research that

2:21

about eighty to ninety percent for

2:23

what a doctor like me it's going to see in any

2:26

given day is in some

2:28

way related to our collective modern

2:30

lifestyles. Now, let me

2:32

be really clear with that. I am not putting blame

2:34

on anybody. Okay, modern

2:36

life is tough, it's very stressful, and

2:39

so if you start

2:41

off with the belief and the view

2:44

that eighty to ninety percent of our medical

2:46

problems are in some way related

2:48

to the way we're living our lives. The

2:50

next logical step is to go, okay, well, we need

2:52

to educate our patients on

2:55

what those things are that they can then

2:57

change food movements, sleep,

3:00

stress reduction, the things that I call the four pillars

3:02

of health. And for many years I've been talking

3:04

about that in public and I think that's incredibly

3:07

useful. But for thelast

3:09

few years I've been wondering, is that really the root

3:11

cause or is it something even higher

3:13

than that? And that's what

3:15

led me to happiness, because I realized

3:18

that actually, for many people, their lifestyle

3:20

behaviors they

3:23

weren't necessarily the root cause. They

3:25

were a cause of sorts, but

3:27

they were a downstream consequence

3:30

of their moods, of the way they approached

3:32

the world, of the state of their lives,

3:35

of their happiness.

3:36

Right.

3:36

So, I think most people will in choously understand

3:39

that happier people

3:42

will naturally.

3:42

Make better lifestyle choices.

3:45

Okay, you're not going to dive headfirst

3:47

into a tub of ice cream in the evening. Generally

3:50

speaking, if you feel pretty

3:52

content with life, usually for most

3:54

people, that's a way of managing stress or

3:56

internal discomfort or loneliness. So

3:59

I found that we can tell patients about these

4:01

lifestyle choices, but if those

4:04

lifestyle choices are their

4:06

way of coping with the stress in their life,

4:09

they're never going to change the behavior unless

4:11

I helped them change their stress, for

4:14

example. So that's one

4:16

way of answering your question. But

4:18

actually, if you go into the research, there seems

4:20

to be this link between happiness and health

4:23

that goes beyond these lifestyle

4:26

behaviors. And actually, Laurie, when you

4:28

came onto my podcast maybe two or three

4:30

years ago, you shared with me a really powerful study

4:32

that made a real impact on me, which

4:34

was that study where I think it was a psychologist

4:37

who did it, when they took people into a

4:39

laboratory and they injected

4:42

rhinovirus up their nostrils.

4:44

Pretty pleasant study, right. Rhinovirus

4:47

is the bug that causes the common colds.

4:50

Now, what was interesting about this study

4:53

is that they could see quite

4:55

clearly an association

4:58

between your mood and

5:00

whether you got sick from the virus. So

5:03

basically, as Laurie told me on my show,

5:06

the group who were in the not so positive

5:08

mood agree, right, got

5:12

sick three times as much, right,

5:15

So that's pretty remarkable. So why does a

5:17

doctor then need to know that? Well, if

5:19

we're not thinking about mood and well being

5:22

and happiness, Well, that study

5:25

is showing a pretty compelling

5:28

association between your immune system function

5:32

and your happiness. So more

5:34

and more I've been led down to the

5:36

belief that actually we need as doctors

5:38

to be talking about happiness a because

5:41

it directly affects your lifestyle choices,

5:43

but beyond that, independently

5:46

of that, and there's more research to support that happiness

5:49

is associated with better health.

5:56

And so as we think about happiness being associated

5:58

with better health, I think is the nerds

6:00

that we are. We also have to think about our definition

6:03

of happiness, and there are lots of different definitions

6:05

of happiness out there in the literature. You

6:07

use a sort of three prong of coach in your book,

6:09

which I really quite like. So talk to me about this sort of

6:11

three parts of happiness as you think of it.

6:13

Yeah, So it took me over six

6:16

months to try and figure out what

6:18

I call the code to happiness. Now, of course many

6:21

people have got their models for

6:23

approaching happiness. For me, as

6:25

a doctor, I'm always thinking about what's

6:28

practical. We can talk about big

6:30

ideas, but how does that busy person

6:33

with a busy life actually put this into

6:35

practice. So I was

6:37

trying to develop a model that

6:39

really underpins its idea that happiness

6:42

is a skill. Happiness is

6:44

a skill that you can get better at

6:47

if you know how to cultivate it. And

6:50

so the best way I could explain it to people

6:52

was with the core happiness stool.

6:55

So it's basically a three legged stool, and

6:57

each of the legs is an ingredient of

7:00

happiness. So each one in isolation

7:03

is going to help, but each one in isolation is

7:05

not enough in and off

7:07

itself. So the three legged

7:09

stool of happiness, the way I see it,

7:12

is composed of alignment,

7:15

contentment, and control.

7:19

So alignment is basically

7:21

about when the person you are inside

7:24

and the person who you are being out there

7:26

in the world are one and

7:28

the same.

7:29

Okay, So when you're.

7:30

Inner values and your external action

7:32

start to line up more and more, that's alignment.

7:35

The next leg is contentment. So what are

7:37

those things in life that give you a

7:39

sense of peace, a sense of calm, and

7:41

in a sense of contentment. That's

7:43

the leg of contentments. And

7:46

the final leg, which I think is

7:48

even more important today if we think about the state

7:50

of the world and what we might

7:53

be exposed to if we go online or look

7:55

at the news, for example. The third leg

7:57

of the stool is control. Now

8:00

I thought long and hard about this word, because it's

8:02

not about controlling the world. It's

8:04

about giving yourself a sense of

8:07

control. And it's actually such different.

8:10

What are the things you can do in life that give you that

8:13

sense of control. We know

8:15

from the research that people who have a strong sense

8:17

of control over their lives, the happier,

8:19

the healthier, They do better at work, they earn

8:21

more money, they have better social relationships.

8:25

So for me, the whole book

8:27

is basically about practical things that work

8:29

on one, two, or three of those legs

8:32

off the stool. So you're not directly working on

8:34

happiness. You're doing something,

8:37

hopefully each day that works on alignment,

8:39

contentment, and control. And the

8:41

side effects of that is you're going to feel happier

8:44

more often, and

8:49

I think most people want to feel happier more

8:51

often.

8:52

One of the things I love about your book is that you don't

8:54

just start with this definition of happiness. You really try

8:56

to come up with these ten practical

8:58

domains in which people can apply different

9:00

strategies to start getting happier. And

9:02

one of the ones that you start with is trying to get

9:04

past what you call the want brain. What

9:07

is the want brain?

9:08

And how do we get run?

9:09

And I can just say, the reason why everything

9:12

I do is so practical focused is

9:14

if you think about my life, you

9:16

know, for many years it's been seeing patients. So

9:20

I can't just say to them, hey, look there's a

9:22

strong link between happiness and health. Okay,

9:25

that was going to help in your immune sysfunction. I see

9:27

you in a month's time. No,

9:29

I mean I have to be able to tell them

9:31

and explain something. But then I have to for

9:34

me. I feel I have to give them something that they

9:36

can go and develop and cultivate

9:38

and start to feel it for themselves. So

9:40

that's why I'm always so practically focused.

9:43

But the one brain okay, so the one brain

9:46

is that part of your brain that evolved a

9:49

long time again, many thousands of years ago,

9:51

that makes you think you have to compete, there

9:54

is limited resources. I have to

9:56

get what's mine. It

9:59

convinces you that a promotion,

10:01

a better salary, a nicer

10:04

phone, a piece of chocolate,

10:06

although you may disagree with that, but it convinces

10:08

you that that's going to make you happier. And

10:11

actually, for most of those things, it's

10:13

actually a myth. And we know that because

10:15

there's a lot of research showing us that there's some research

10:17

where they phone people up at various parts

10:20

of the day after they've engaged in certain

10:22

activities, and we find that actually when people

10:24

have just brought something online, or they've had a bit of

10:26

chocolates, or you know, they're getting seduced

10:29

by the modern myth of success,

10:32

which often means in the workplace that people

10:34

feel less motivated, they feel less

10:36

confident, and they feel depressed.

10:39

But the one brain.

10:41

Is very, very powerful, and I think we're living

10:44

in a time where society and

10:46

culture very much prioritizes

10:48

the one brain. So many of us get

10:51

sucked into this trap that more

10:53

work, more promotion, more Instagram followers,

10:56

more whatever is going to make us happy. And

10:58

by and large, in most cases,

11:01

if you identify that with your happiness,

11:04

it's going to be a disappointment. And I

11:06

can tell you I started the book with very I think it's a very powerful

11:08

story of my dad. So my dad's

11:10

came to the UK in nineteen

11:13

sixty two from India for a

11:15

better life, and Dad faced all kinds

11:17

of discrimination and all kinds of things that many immigrant

11:19

families at that time will have experienced.

11:22

But basically, for thirty years,

11:25

my dad worked four

11:27

nights a week, right, so he worked

11:29

in the day as a consultant medical doctor

11:31

at manster Warm Infirmary. But Dad

11:33

would come home every night, he would

11:36

shave, he'd have his dinner and then a car

11:38

would pick him up at seven

11:40

pm and Dad would be out doing gp house course

11:42

all night. He'd come back at seven

11:44

am shave, Mum had give him breakfast

11:47

and he'd drive for thirty minutes back into Manchester

11:49

and work all day. So for thirty

11:51

years, my dad only slept for three nights

11:53

a week, right. And at fifty

11:56

seven, my dad gets loopus, he

11:59

gets chronic kidney failure and

12:01

he's on a dalist machine for fifteen years.

12:04

And my dad died almost eleven years ago

12:06

now. And I'm convinced

12:09

that this wants brain, that this

12:12

belief that success

12:15

and more money is going to make

12:18

you happier and the people around you happier. I'm

12:21

convinced that's why my dad got sick and that's

12:23

why he's no longer here.

12:25

I mean, it's such a powerful story. Of

12:28

course, the problem is it's so hard to

12:30

shut off the want brain from the basic

12:32

physical wants of like ooh chocolate to

12:34

ooh promotion, ooh more money. What

12:38

are some strategies we can use to tackle

12:40

the want brain. You have an exercise that I think we might

12:42

even be able to try out quickly here with this

12:44

audience.

12:45

Right, yeah, I mean one of my favorite exercises

12:47

is in chapter one of the book. It's called your Own

12:49

Happy Ending, and it's so simple. But

12:52

I think if you take nothing else from our conversation,

12:54

but just do this exercise and maybe

12:57

share it with someone in your family

12:59

or someone who's sitting next to you later on, I

13:01

honestly believe it will change the trajectory

13:04

of the next few weeks and months of your life.

13:06

And it's so so simple, right, So the first

13:09

stage is and yes, as

13:11

Laurie says, try and imagine it and

13:13

do it now. If you can imagine

13:15

you're on your deathbeds right

13:19

now, look back on your life

13:23

and ask yourself, what are three things you

13:26

will want to have done or spent time on what

13:29

does he think about that?

13:31

Okay?

13:32

And then the second part of the exercise is

13:35

you bring it into the present day and go, Okay,

13:37

what's three happiness

13:40

habits do I need

13:42

to do each week that

13:44

will give me the happy ending I've just defined

13:47

I want. It is

13:49

deceptively simple, right,

13:51

So for me, at the end of my life, I

13:54

will want to have spent quality time

13:56

with my family and friends. Like everyone

13:58

else, I will want

14:01

to have done something that impacts

14:03

the people around me in a positive way. And

14:05

I will want to have spent time or

14:08

have had time to pursue things that I'm passionate

14:10

about. So for me, my

14:14

three weekly happiness habits are and

14:16

these are written up on my fridge at

14:18

home, so I see them every day, just

14:20

on a piece of paper, nothing fancy, very

14:22

low tech, scrap piece of paper and

14:24

a pencil.

14:25

Right, I specify.

14:27

I want five meals a week with

14:29

my wife and my two kids where I'm completely

14:31

undistracted.

14:33

Okay, may not work for you. That works

14:35

for me.

14:37

I need to record one episode in my podcast

14:39

each week, which I've been doing for six and a half years,

14:41

because I know that will have an impact on

14:43

the world around me. And if

14:46

I've had time each week to either go for long

14:48

walk in nature, play

14:50

my guitar, write some songs, play snooker

14:52

with my son, whatever it might be, I know I've had

14:54

time to pursue my passions.

14:57

Now, why that's such a powerful exercise. It doesn't

14:59

necessarily remove the want brain, Right,

15:02

It doesn't mean I don't also get seduced

15:05

into these belief systems that the culture

15:07

will kind of feed in.

15:09

But it means that.

15:11

I'm intentionally focusing on the things

15:13

that are important every single week. Now,

15:15

those things don't take long. Right,

15:17

It doesn't mean that my email inbox won't

15:20

overflow, and I might get stressed about

15:22

that. But the problem today,

15:24

in my view, is that we fit

15:26

in the important things

15:29

when everything else is done. But

15:31

the problem is today everything else is never done.

15:40

There's always something else. There's always another

15:42

email to answer, another person to get back to,

15:44

another WhatsApp message group to

15:47

reply to. Right, And

15:49

so if you don't intentionally put in your

15:51

diary the things

15:53

that are important for your happiness, I

15:55

think your happiness is going to wither away. And

15:58

it's a simple exercise, but it's very very effective.

16:00

I do it myself and I've done it for years

16:03

with my patients and they really really

16:05

like it.

16:12

I think it's so powerful too, because what this exercise

16:15

causes you to realize is that, like,

16:17

you're never going to have time to get everything done,

16:20

Like you're going to have a bunch of balls in the air, and a

16:22

lot of those balls are going to fall. But

16:24

the key is to make sure the right balls fall.

16:26

And our instinct is never that we let the email

16:28

ball fall, because it's like you know, pinging in

16:30

our phones in our pockets. But

16:32

this sort of forces us to say, there's a

16:34

reason I'm not entering my email, and it's because I'm

16:36

having dinner with my kids.

16:37

Yeah, and I often i'm the

16:39

worst person, or one of the worst people in the world at

16:41

getting back to emails. But you know what, I've made

16:43

peace with that. I'm okay with that because me not getting

16:45

back to emails generally means

16:48

I'm spending time with my children and my wife,

16:51

and so I've got very clear that that's important.

16:53

Now here's the thing about that deathbed exercise.

16:56

Right, we all think we're different,

16:58

and we all have individual likes and needs

17:01

and wants, and yes, of course there's variability

17:04

but on one level, we're not

17:06

that different. You

17:08

know, palliative care nurses

17:11

who have sat with dying people, like

17:13

Bronnie Ware, who wrote the book

17:15

The Five Regrets of the Dying, who I had a beautiful

17:18

conversation with last year when she was in London.

17:20

On my podcast.

17:22

She explains that after eight years

17:24

of sitting with dying people, what

17:27

are the things that they say? And they

17:29

all say the same things. I

17:31

wish I hadn't worked so hard. I

17:33

wish I'd spent more time with my friends and family.

17:37

I wish I'd lived my life

17:40

and not the life that other people expected

17:42

of me. So for me, these

17:45

things aren't just cute Instagram memes

17:47

which go viral, right,

17:50

They don't have to be. We can convert

17:52

it into action, We can use

17:54

it as a way of thinking. I don't want to wait until

17:57

my death bed to learn what's important, right,

18:00

And it's the thing I didn't mention my dad. One thing I will

18:02

say, though, just to which I think is really

18:04

important. And

18:07

I've reflected on this since I wrote the book and shared

18:09

the story of my dad's One

18:11

thing I can't say is

18:14

that he made the wrong choices. And I'll tell you why I can't

18:16

say that. If my dad

18:18

was here today, one of the questions

18:20

I'd love to ask him is Dad, was it worth it?

18:23

Because you know what, for him, coming

18:25

from India where he didn't feel there was much opportunity,

18:28

he may go to me, and I suspect

18:30

he would actually. And this

18:33

is where my view has evolved since I wrote

18:35

A Happy Mind, Happy Life. I

18:37

think my dad was a lie. Today he may say, hey, son, listen,

18:40

it was totally worth it. I'd do it all again because

18:42

look how I've set you up with a great education.

18:45

Look what impact you're having on the world. Look

18:47

what your brother's doing.

18:49

And I'm now sort of seeing the other

18:51

side and going actually, for him, maybe

18:53

it was worth it.

19:03

But the key and the beauty of this exercises you can

19:06

figure out what's worth it for you, which is so powerful.

19:08

So in our second tip

19:11

from your book, we're going to explore a practice

19:13

that you find most important.

19:16

But unfortunately we have

19:19

run out of time, and that means

19:21

that all of you can only figure

19:23

out Ronan's second most important

19:25

thing. If you listen to the Happiness

19:28

Pod, can we get

19:30

a big round of a plaza?

19:34

That's right, Runkan and I only had about

19:36

twenty minutes on stage and then we had to

19:38

make way for some other great speakers.

19:40

But kindly the.

19:41

World Happiness Summit folks set us up in an

19:43

empty auditorium next door so we could

19:45

continue our conversation, which is

19:47

coming up right after this quick break.

19:56

So we're now done our

19:58

conversation at Wahasu in front of that big,

20:01

amazing audience, and now we are in a different

20:03

auditorium That might sound a little bit echoey

20:05

because there's nobody in here. We're sitting out

20:07

here looking at like one hundred emptyc which is

20:10

a little strange.

20:11

But yeah, and we were just getting going were we

20:13

I know, like there was a real energy in there

20:15

in the room, and now we've got to recreate

20:17

that for the second time.

20:18

But which is a good way to jump

20:20

to your second tip that we were just about

20:22

to talk about before, which is this idea that

20:24

we need to treat ourselves with kindness

20:26

and treat ourself with respect even when the situation

20:29

like this one might be a little bit tricky. And

20:32

one of the reasons I loved your book so much is that

20:34

you're really candid about the fact that this is something that you

20:36

have struggled with yourself a little bit.

20:38

Yeah, it's interesting, Laurie that you

20:40

know I mentioned the three legs of the stool, and

20:43

I mentioned alignments

20:47

and the importance of living

20:49

in a way that is aligned

20:51

with who we really are. And for this

20:53

book, actually it's the most vulnerable

20:56

I've ever been, to the point where my

20:58

wife, who never reads any of my books until the

21:00

final stage, is when

21:02

she read it she actually said, Hey, wrong,

21:04

going to be sure you want to put all of

21:06

this in your book. And I think

21:08

I'd be on this happiness journey myself,

21:11

and I feel that it is important

21:13

as long as I'm comfortable with it which I am

21:16

to share the things or some of the things

21:18

that maybe I previously wouldn't have

21:20

shared, because it's kind of who I am. It's

21:22

led to who I am today. And

21:25

I think that negative inner voice is

21:27

one of those things. I think I've had a pretty vicious

21:30

inner voice for much of my life. I

21:32

never felt good enough growing up. You

21:34

know, there's two signs to every story. There's

21:36

definitely not about blame. But

21:39

this is actually not that uncommon in immigrant

21:41

families, certainly here in the UK.

21:42

I would say I can only speak for that.

21:45

But if I came home from school when

21:47

I was six or seven with

21:50

nineteen out of twenty, it

21:52

was never well done. It was always what did

21:54

you get wrong? Why didn't you get twenty?

21:57

If I ever came back and I was second in the class,

22:00

Mum and Dad would always ask, well, who came

22:02

top? How many points lower

22:04

were you? How can you come top next

22:06

time? And I didn't realize until

22:08

about ten years ago what an impact that has had

22:10

on me on my life, because I never felt full

22:12

the love for.

22:13

Who I was. Now.

22:14

I'm not blaming my parents. They

22:16

were doing the best that they could and

22:18

for them, as immigrants to the UK, their

22:21

belief system is we face a lot

22:23

of struggle and discrimination. If

22:25

my child can be a straight A student

22:28

and get a really good job like a doctor

22:30

or a lawyer, they're not going to have any

22:32

problems. The problem is that little

22:35

Wrongan developed the belief at a young

22:37

age that I'm not good enough unless

22:40

i'm number one. And for all

22:42

my success, and

22:44

we spoke about the want brain earlier, I've

22:47

had more success

22:49

than I could have dreamt off as a child, But

22:51

that success is not why

22:54

I'm sitting with you here today, Laurie, as happy and

22:56

contented as I've ever been. In fact,

22:58

that success has taught me that

23:01

success doesn't make you happy. For

23:04

me, at least, it didn't make me happy. What makes

23:06

me happy is when I live in harmony

23:08

with who I am, want to have a meaningful

23:10

relationship with my wife, When I get time

23:13

each week to spend quality time with my children.

23:16

You know, I live five minutes away from my mother. I help

23:18

to look after and care for her. These are things

23:20

that actually make me happy. So how does that

23:22

fit in with being kind to yourself? Well,

23:25

when you don't feel like you're

23:27

good enough, you will

23:30

develop certain traits to

23:32

compensate. So I have been very competitive

23:35

for much of my life. A lot of

23:37

my best friends will tell you wrong, as one of the

23:39

most competitive people I know. But you

23:41

know what, I'm not anymore because

23:43

that competitiveness was an adaptation. If

23:46

you only feel that, you get love when

23:48

you're top of the tree,

23:51

while developing the behavior

23:53

trait of competitiveness is

23:56

a genius adaptation because it

23:58

drives you to do more and to achieve

24:00

more. But as I've made peace

24:03

with my upbringing, I've done a lot

24:05

of you know, for once of a better term in a work,

24:08

and I I feel very at peace with who I am. I

24:10

like the person who I am today, so

24:13

I no longer need the trait

24:15

of competitiveness. So I believe that you

24:17

can actually change a huge part of who you are,

24:19

not everything, if you go

24:21

in and do the work, maybe with a healthcare

24:24

professional or a therapist. And

24:26

today my inner voice is

24:29

really really kind, but

24:31

it wasn't. And it's really important for happiness,

24:33

Laurie, because not just happening,

24:35

but health too, right, Yeah, it's really

24:38

important for happiness and health.

24:40

Right.

24:40

So, Kristin Neff has done a lot of research

24:42

Professor Kristen nev on self compassion,

24:44

and her research has shown a really

24:47

strong link between self

24:49

compassion and physical health. There's

24:52

other research that shows that people who are more

24:54

compassionate to themselves not

24:56

only they kind it to others, but

24:58

their immune system works better, they age

25:01

more slowly, and they're better

25:03

able to stick to

25:05

healthy lifestyle habits.

25:07

Right.

25:08

So self compassion is massive, and we don't

25:10

realize that if we call ourselves

25:12

a loser. And I used to like

25:15

if I wasn't doing well, i'd I mean, I

25:17

share this in the book it's in fact, this

25:19

is one of the stories. My wife said, are you sure you want

25:22

to share this? I can remember at

25:24

university in Edinburgh and medical school if

25:27

on a Sunday afternoon we were at a local pool

25:29

hall, just me and my buddy's, you

25:31

know, playing pool. If

25:33

I was losing. Now, I consider myself a decent

25:36

player. If I was ever losing to one of my friends,

25:39

sometimes i'd go into the restroom.

25:42

I'd look at myself in the mirror, give myself

25:44

a lot of slap and say, come on, you'd lose it, get

25:47

yourself sorted right.

25:49

That's what I would do.

25:51

And you're not like a competitive billiards player. This

25:53

is like you and your maids.

25:54

I'm not a professional, right, And

25:57

it would often motivate me to go back

25:59

and sort my game out, and usually

26:02

I would then go on to win. But

26:04

when writing this book, what I realized, Laurie

26:06

is that I didn't enjoy winning. The

26:09

pain of losing is what I was trying

26:11

to avoid, so I didn't feel it relates.

26:12

To when i'd won. I was relieved

26:15

that I hadn't lost. And

26:18

that's pretty dark.

26:19

Yeah, I mean, but this is a general feature of the want

26:21

brain, right, Like, when the want brain gets what it wants,

26:23

it's usually not very happy or as happy

26:26

as you thought. It's usually not satisfied. You just like

26:28

want something else immediately. And the

26:30

pressure that that can put on our mindset and our

26:32

self talk is just incredible. And so

26:35

so I'm curious kind of how you got

26:37

out of this sort of really self critical

26:39

voice. But I also want you to talk about the specific

26:41

practice you recommend in the book, because as usual

26:43

you have this like incredibly straightforward, practical

26:46

kind of strategy that folks can engage

26:49

in. And so talk maybe about kind of how you got out

26:51

of things, but then also what you recommend.

26:52

For your educatients.

26:53

And I think it's important just to say that

26:56

when you call yourself a loser in your

26:58

head, that is not neutral. It's not

27:00

just something you're saying to yourself. When I suppose

27:02

to Professor Kristen Neff on my podcast,

27:05

she said to me that, and she showed me research

27:08

that when you talk negatively to yourself,

27:10

you elevate levels

27:12

of the stress hormone cortisol. So

27:14

you are literally stressing yourself

27:17

out with that negative self

27:19

talk. And I think a lot of people don't realize that they think,

27:21

Oh, I'm just saying it to myself. It doesn't matter. No,

27:23

it absolutely matters, because

27:26

that's the start of

27:28

all kinds of negative emotions like guilt

27:30

and shame, and all kinds of things which spiral

27:33

and lead us to make poor choices.

27:35

In our life and negative health consequences.

27:37

I mean.

27:37

One of my favorite bits of Nef's research

27:39

is that she looks at people who are more

27:41

self compassionate versus less and their

27:43

level of healthy eating, and she finds that

27:45

people who are more self compassionate can make healthier

27:48

choices in terms of what they're eating. And the cortisol

27:50

story makes total sense there. Right, if you're flooding your

27:52

brain with cortisol, you're like, I need snack

27:55

food, I need like comfort food.

27:56

I feel that.

27:57

And what I found is that lifestyle

28:00

change for me these days is a lot easier

28:02

than it used to be because I'm not trying

28:04

to overcome something because I'm kind

28:06

to myself these days and compassionate to myself.

28:09

Well, a compassionate person someone

28:11

who truly likes themselves

28:14

and likes to be compassionate to themselves,

28:16

then probably not going to binge

28:19

eat sugar as much right,

28:21

And I'm not saying that to be critical to anyone, but we

28:23

have to understand that self compassion is a critical

28:26

ingredient for health and happiness. So

28:29

how have I done it? Well, there's been a combination of different

28:31

ways. Yes, I have done a bit of therapy,

28:34

something called IFS Internal Family Systems,

28:36

which for me was incredibly helpful.

28:39

But I know that therapy is

28:41

not either available or accessible

28:43

to everybody for all kinds of issues.

28:46

Cost you know what you have available

28:48

to you in your area, and I don't think you

28:50

necessarily need it. You can do

28:52

a lot even without it. And

28:55

so just being aware and catching

28:57

yourself when you

28:59

have a negative voice, I think is

29:02

really useful.

29:03

For me.

29:03

Having children has been really,

29:05

really helpful because what a lot of parents

29:08

I think need to hear is that if you have a

29:10

negative voice that you say out

29:12

loud in front of your children,

29:15

oh stupid me, Oh

29:17

I can't do anything right? Well,

29:20

what voice do you think they're going

29:22

to develop? So for me, having children was

29:24

a really it was a huge motivating

29:26

factor to catch myself and not do

29:28

it in front of the children.

29:30

Doesn't mean it's good to do it away.

29:32

From them, but Initially I didn't want to do it in front

29:34

of them because I didn't want them to

29:36

pick it up. For much of my life until the last

29:38

five or six years, I don't think I was that happy.

29:41

I think I.

29:41

Thought more, I need to compete, I need to do

29:43

better. That's going to make me happy. But

29:45

I got all that and it didn't. That's

29:47

when I stopped looking outside and I started

29:50

to turn the ship around to look internally and go,

29:52

ah, you need to do some work here, that's

29:54

what's going to make you happy. So one of the

29:56

practices in the book that I really

29:59

like, that it's really practical for people, is

30:02

to write themselves a love letter.

30:03

Now to a British.

30:05

Audience, I'm not sure there's anything

30:07

more uncomfortable than say something

30:09

like that. Maybe it goes down easier in

30:11

America.

30:12

I don't know.

30:12

I think not unfortunately.

30:14

Yeah, But the point of it is, can

30:16

you fact, let's make it easy.

30:19

Can you write down on a piece of paper

30:21

or in your journal five

30:23

things you like about yourself?

30:25

And one of the things I love about the suggestion in your

30:27

book is you say, if you can't think

30:29

of those five things, pretend you're your best

30:32

friend. Pretend you're your dog. Pretend

30:34

you're someone who really cares about you. What

30:36

would they say about you?

30:37

Yeah, pretend you're that teacher who you

30:39

had in high school that was awesome

30:42

for you. What would they say about you? Start there,

30:44

because you're opening the door to

30:46

self compassion.

30:47

It can be that easy. Now.

30:48

If you can't do five, but you can only think

30:50

of one, start with one, right,

30:53

and maybe over the next few days, see if you can build up

30:55

to two or three, and look, what does

30:57

the research say. There are some really good research

30:59

showing that for seven days in

31:01

a row, if you write yourself

31:04

a compassionate letter, a love

31:06

letter, let's say, right, or just a

31:08

letter wait you say nice things about yourself.

31:11

Three months later, those researchers

31:13

can still measure improvements

31:16

in your happiness and your subjective well

31:18

being.

31:19

I mean this stuff.

31:20

What I love about it is it simple, it

31:22

doesn't cost any money, and it can

31:24

have a real impact. Now, Laurie,

31:26

if anyone who's listening to this right now is

31:29

pushing back a little bit and going, I'm

31:31

not writing.

31:32

Myself a love lad set, I would say, Okay,

31:34

I hear you.

31:35

But if you're pushing back, it's probably

31:38

a very good sign that self

31:40

compassion is something you need to work

31:42

on. And I would just say, like with anything,

31:44

start small, and.

31:46

This is you know, something that you obviously, as a medical

31:48

doctor know really well. We assume like, oh, we're

31:50

fixing our traits. If I'm self critical, I'll just

31:52

be self critical forever. But like our

31:54

brains have neuroplasticity, right,

31:56

you know what fires together, wires together.

31:59

Right. The more you do these activities, the

32:01

more likely it is that it's going to become a habit that

32:03

you can pick up. So this, this writing, this love

32:05

letter might seem kind of cheesy in your journal some

32:08

random Thursday night, you do that every night,

32:10

but then naturally when you're playing

32:12

pool, it will just be the talk that you bring

32:15

up.

32:15

It just becomes more of a happy you bring up some really

32:17

interesting First of all, what I've realized

32:19

in life is that we get good at what we practice.

32:22

If you practice stress every day, you

32:24

get pretty good at feeling stressed.

32:26

If you practice negative

32:28

self talk every day, you get really

32:30

good at talking.

32:32

Down to yourself.

32:33

If you practice self compassion every day,

32:35

or gratitude every day, you get

32:37

really good.

32:38

At those things.

32:39

And it's interesting just to tie up the loop

32:41

with having children. I remember a few years

32:43

ago I was actually playing pool or

32:45

snooker with my son, who

32:48

at the time was about eight or nine, and

32:50

I remember this really well.

32:51

I fell into.

32:52

An old pattern, not as

32:54

bad as it was at university, but not quite

32:57

as compassionate as I would have liked to have been.

32:59

And it wasn't that bad. I think.

33:01

I think I missed a shot and I said

33:04

something like, oh, you could have done better. You should have made

33:06

that shot. And my son said

33:08

to me, Daddy, don't talk

33:10

to yourself like that. And

33:12

it was so powerful because it

33:15

helped catch me. And

33:18

that wasn't that bad. Honestly, competitor, I

33:21

like about it. That was good, but I thought,

33:23

this is awesome, Like I hope

33:26

my wife and I have brought him up in such a way that he

33:28

is compassionate to himself. And he's

33:30

heard me say something. He said,

33:33

that's not nice, Daddy, don't talk to yourself like that.

33:35

And it was a really special moment for me, a

33:37

for me, but also for

33:40

what I hope that I'm teaching him.

33:43

Rungan is so open and honest about how he's

33:45

had to change many of his habits to improve

33:47

his happiness. But there's one strategy

33:49

above all others that he credits with making

33:52

his daily life better. You'll share

33:54

what that is when the Happiness lab returns

33:56

in a moment. I

34:06

often say that social interaction is the key to

34:08

happiness, but you and I both know that

34:10

people can kind of suck. They can

34:12

make us angry or even make us feel

34:14

disappointed. Doctor Runken Chatterjee

34:17

says the biggest breakthrough in his happiness

34:19

journey was to change how he dealt with these

34:21

tricky interactions. It can be

34:23

done, he says, by exercising our

34:25

friction. So what exactly

34:27

does that involve?

34:29

So we're social animals, right,

34:32

It's very hard, I think, for us to be happy

34:34

if our interactions with the world around

34:37

us and the people around us are problematic,

34:40

and a lot of the time we feel

34:42

that we have to be a victim to

34:45

the way the people around us act if

34:47

they're not nice, or they

34:50

criticize me, or they say certain things. While

34:52

I have every right to feel

34:54

down and depressed and unhappy, and

34:56

that's what I used to think, but I've

34:58

realized there is another option.

35:01

The way you interact with

35:03

people, the way you interact

35:06

with the world. It

35:09

comes down to you. You can interpret

35:12

various situations and a multitude of

35:14

different ways, and once you understand

35:17

that, you empower yourself. So, just as you

35:19

can go to the physical gym and

35:21

do bicep curls or make your biceps

35:23

bigger, will seeking out friction

35:26

for me is working out of the social gym. You're

35:28

using social friction with the world around

35:30

you to make your social muscle

35:33

stronger. So how does this play out for

35:35

me? Well, any time something

35:38

happens in my life that I don't like or

35:40

I'm getting frustrated by, I

35:42

think, well, what other story

35:45

could I write here? Okay, instead of being a victim

35:47

to this situation, how can

35:49

I empower myself

35:51

here? So let's say I'm driving

35:54

somewhere and someone cuts me up on the

35:56

road. Instead of saying that

35:59

guy shouldn't be driving, they shouldn't

36:01

have got their driving license, they need their eyes checked,

36:04

I could have been hurt. Whatever story you want

36:06

to create here, you're entitled to make

36:08

whatever story you want. But

36:10

if you have that sort of outlook, you're

36:13

not going to be happy because you're going to generate

36:15

emotional stress. You're not

36:17

going to feel good, and that emotional stress

36:20

will have to be neutralized at some point,

36:22

and often we neutralize

36:24

it with sugar, with more caffeine,

36:26

with alcohol, with whatever, you know, our

36:29

habit of choices. But

36:31

we generated that emotional stress by

36:33

the way we reacted. And

36:36

once you want to sound that you don't need to react

36:38

like that, you open

36:40

up a new possibility of living. This is exactly

36:43

what I've done, and when I really got this

36:45

Lorry. Honestly, the conversation,

36:48

out of all conversations

36:50

I've had in my podcast, which is four hundred plus

36:52

now, the one conversation I'd always

36:54

come back to is the conversation I had with

36:56

Edith Eager, who when I spoke to was a ninety

36:59

three year old lady. When she was sixteen,

37:02

she got put on a train to Auschwitz

37:04

concentration camp. Within two hours

37:06

of getting there, both of her parents were murdered. Later

37:10

that afternoon, she

37:13

was asked to dance in

37:15

front of the senior prison guards. So

37:18

she's in a concentration account. The parents have just been murdered,

37:20

she's sixteen years old. She has

37:22

to dance for the entertainment of the

37:24

senior prison guards. And

37:26

there's many things I remember from that conversation. But

37:29

she said to me, when I had to dance

37:31

for them, I wasn't in Auschwitz.

37:34

In my mind. I was in Budapest

37:36

opera house.

37:38

I had a beautiful blue dress on the

37:40

orchestra was playing, there was a full house.

37:43

I remember Laurie thinking, you

37:46

were able to do that in Alschwitz.

37:48

Then in the conversation, she said, when

37:51

I was in Auschwitz, I started

37:53

to see the prison guards as

37:55

the prisoners. They

37:58

weren't free in their mind. In my mind

38:00

I was free, and there was lots more. But

38:03

at the end, this is the thing she said to me that

38:05

I think about. I would

38:07

say on most days, said wrongin

38:10

I have lived in Auschwitz, and I can tell you that

38:12

the greatest prison you will ever live

38:14

inside is the

38:16

prison you create inside

38:19

your own mind. That

38:21

phrase has changed my life because I realize

38:23

that we all create these mental

38:26

prisons every day by the way we interact.

38:28

So that person who cuts me up on the road, instead

38:30

of me being a victim to that situation,

38:33

it's training myself to go, oh, I wonder what's going on

38:35

in that person's life. Maybe that's

38:38

a dad whose daughter was up last night

38:40

with earache and they're exhausted and they

38:42

think they're going to be late for work, and

38:44

if they're late for work, they're going to get fired. You

38:46

know, maybe they genuinely didn't see me. Whatever

38:49

story you want. And here's the thing, Laurie

38:51

that I've realized, and you know you're a psychologist. I'm interesting

38:53

in your perspective on this. All

38:55

situations I've realized have multiple realities.

38:59

And I often talk to people about this through the lens

39:01

of a couple's relationship. I say to people,

39:04

let's say you're a husband and wife and you have a

39:06

disagreement. Don't know if you ever know what

39:08

that feels like, you know for people

39:11

who experienced that, right, I say,

39:13

Okay, well, you've had a disagreement stroke argument.

39:16

What actually happens, Well,

39:18

it kind of depends who you ask. If

39:20

you ask the husband, he may give

39:23

you a certain narrative and story

39:25

about the situation that may be completely

39:27

different to what his wife says,

39:30

and they can both be right for them. There

39:32

was this really great study on some psychologists

39:34

where they found football fans and after

39:37

the match, they showed them the same incident.

39:40

Right, so they're saying, calmly watching the same incident,

39:43

depending on which team you supported would

39:46

determine what you think happened in

39:48

that incident. And so the

39:51

reason for me sharing that is you

39:53

realize that every situation has multiple

39:55

stories that you can create about

39:58

it. Or what I say in the book is create

40:00

the story that empowers you, not

40:02

the story that makes you a victim.

40:04

So this can be a very simple

40:07

practice that people do in the evening or once a week. You

40:10

reflect, where did I get

40:12

really frustrated by someone and

40:15

make them like a really bad

40:17

person.

40:18

And one of the.

40:19

Tools I recommend is just saying what stories

40:22

you need to create to make that person a hero. And

40:24

here's the truth of the situation the

40:26

way I see it, Lorrie, the truth

40:29

of what actually happens

40:31

for your happiness, it doesn't really matter for

40:34

your happiness, it doesn't matter. And when

40:36

you can let go of the need to be right

40:39

and the need to know that person

40:41

does have a driving license and they should have known

40:43

that I was here, you never know.

40:45

And I've been doing this for over five years

40:47

now. I've been slowly using

40:50

every bit of social friction in my life. In

40:52

the evening, I'd reflect and go okay, wrong, And what's a different

40:54

story that you can right here

40:56

and yes. And at first it was an effort, like

40:58

when you first learn to drive a car, if

41:01

you're learning to drive a manual or what

41:03

you guys call the stick I think stick share,

41:05

yes, stake shift yet right, it's conscious

41:08

you're thinking, this is the clutch, this is the accelerator.

41:11

But what over time it's automatic.

41:14

So now, genuinely speaking, most

41:16

of the time, unless I'm on the really high levels

41:18

of stress and or I'm sleep deprived,

41:21

I will naturally write

41:24

a happiness story. And it means that

41:27

you feel good because

41:29

you lead with compassion and curiosity.

41:31

What's going on in that person's life? Does that all make

41:33

sense?

41:33

No? Totally.

41:34

And I think when you do that, you do a couple of

41:36

things. First, you end up often changing

41:38

the other person's behavior. I imagine

41:40

somebody cuts you off and you get to interact with them after.

41:43

If you scream at them and stuff, you are going to turn

41:45

them into a jerk. But if you say, are

41:47

you okay? Like what happened? Like, if you just show

41:49

it, like a tiny iota of compassion, often

41:52

that will change someone's behavior. They will become the hero.

41:54

They'll kind of want to behave in the way that you

41:56

want. But another reason I just love

41:58

this technique so much is that when you

42:00

realize not just that these kind of construles

42:03

are these ways of thinking about people, these sort of hero

42:05

stories matter for your happiness, but when

42:07

you also realize that you can get better at it, that

42:10

this is a social gym and you can train, you

42:12

can actually, in a funny way, become excited

42:14

about these moments of social free one hundred percent

42:17

where you're like, oh, somebody cut me off. This

42:19

is a wonderful These are my reps today, Like I'm

42:21

going to get extra reps. This is like leg day for

42:23

social And.

42:23

What does this do if we think about the core happiness

42:26

stool that I mentioned right, the starts,

42:28

alignment, contentment, of control. Well, this does

42:30

several things, but particularly this speaks

42:32

to the control elements. If

42:35

you feel that the social world

42:37

is out of control, that people

42:39

are acting in these sort of ways and you are basically

42:41

just like a puppet on a string, that if

42:43

someone acts badly, you're

42:45

going to have a bad day. Just think about that for a

42:47

minute. You're putting your happiness in

42:49

the hands of other people. Now I

42:52

get it. Of course, we want people to interact

42:54

nicely with us, but you

42:56

can't rely on that

42:59

if you want to be happy. And you

43:01

know another phrase which might help people

43:03

here if they're struggling to write a hero

43:06

story for the other person. This phrase

43:08

literally is change my life. I think it's very powerful.

43:12

If I was that other person, I'd

43:15

be acting in exactly the same way as them.

43:18

And when you really really get that phrase, what

43:20

I'm saying is if I was that other

43:22

person and I had

43:24

their childhoods and the bullying

43:26

they experience, and the parents they had,

43:29

and the first boss at sixteen

43:31

who was toxic and took advantage to be whatever

43:33

it might be, if I had their life, I would

43:36

see the world the way that they see it, and

43:38

I would be acting in the way that they're currently

43:40

acting.

43:41

Now. I choose to.

43:43

Go out in the world every day believing that

43:45

everyone is doing the best that they can, and if

43:47

I were them, I'd be acting in exactly the same

43:49

way. For me, it's been

43:51

a transformative practice because

43:53

it means that you

43:56

know what you're curious, You understand. You're thinking,

43:58

why does that person think differently to me? Why

44:00

is that person being rude in that

44:02

situation? What has gone on in

44:04

their life. It doesn't mean you have to accept

44:06

poor behavior. Just to be really clear, but

44:09

by not getting emotionally triggered, you

44:11

feel better. You feel calmer

44:13

and in control. And let's

44:16

say it's your boss who send you a email

44:18

that you don't like and you think is inappropriate. If

44:20

you get emotionally triggered, you

44:23

may fire one back that you regret, You

44:26

may have an unproductive

44:28

interaction with your boss because you're so emotionally

44:30

triggered by it. But if you receive

44:32

that email and you think, hmm, that's out

44:34

of character for my boss, what's going on in his or

44:37

her life? Oh, you know, maybe he's

44:39

having marital problems, maybe he's

44:41

worried about his or her job, whatever

44:43

it might be, you just calm

44:45

everything down and then if you do have the torture

44:48

boss, you're better able to

44:50

make changes because you've not been emotionally

44:52

triggered. So that chapter,

44:54

honestly is one of my favorite chapters in the book

44:57

because I would say it's had the most impact on

44:59

me. I realize how much I picked

45:01

up from my parents, how much I thought

45:04

that my feelings were because

45:06

of the people around me, and I didn't

45:08

quite really Actually, I've got a lot

45:10

more agency here than I previously

45:12

thought, and.

45:13

So I can see this just in interacting with you. But

45:16

I'm going to ask the question anyway. Has

45:18

kind of recognizing the agency you have to

45:20

change your happiness really changed your

45:22

overall sense of joy and well being. It seems

45:25

like it just interacting with you.

45:26

Yeah, look on honestly, and again,

45:28

I would have been too insecure to say this in the past

45:30

because of how it might make people feel.

45:33

But I also understand that how

45:35

people feel is up to them.

45:38

It's not that much to do with me. So

45:40

I'm going to share something with you that if

45:42

people feel bad about it,

45:45

it says I think more about them.

45:47

And I say that with an open heart. Lorry.

45:49

I'm not blaming or criticizing anyone.

45:51

I'm forty six years old. I've

45:54

never felt happier and

45:56

more content with who I am than

45:59

I do today, and it's been

46:01

like this for a couple of years now. I think

46:03

writing this book on happiness has really helped

46:05

me. You know, what do authors do. We often write the books

46:07

that we need for ourselves.

46:09

Right.

46:09

That was absolutely the case with me. I

46:12

was on that journey and writing it. Yes,

46:14

I know it's helped a lot of people, but

46:16

it's also helped me. And

46:19

what I'm passionate about, what I've always been passionate

46:21

about, is we make

46:23

health, we make happiness so complicated

46:26

we really don't need to. Like I

46:28

do, think it's our birthright to be happy.

46:31

I think if you look at a young child, a

46:33

two or three year olds, they're

46:35

in the moments they're playing with their toys

46:37

or their siblings.

46:39

That happiness, that presence. I think

46:41

it is something.

46:42

That all of us can get,

46:46

but we need to know what to work on. That's why

46:48

I created this model of the

46:50

three legged store, because I think it's rather

46:52

than thinking what can I do to be happy? I

46:54

think, well, what we need to do is what

46:57

can I do to improve my alignment? What

46:59

can I do to improve my contentment? What can

47:01

I do that gives me a sense of control? And if I

47:03

can do those things regularly, I'm

47:06

going to be happier more often.

47:09

Cool to hear how much it's changed your life,

47:11

But I'm curious, given your

47:13

status as a doctor in the UK and so on,

47:16

like, do you think that more books like

47:18

this are conld change the medical field? That is

47:20

not just you, but really like the way we think about

47:22

physical health is going to incorporate happiness

47:24

even more.

47:25

I'm an optimist, okay, so

47:27

I believe it will. And yes,

47:29

I get contacted a lot by the public, but

47:32

I've had hundreds, if not thousands

47:35

of messages from medical

47:37

doctors saying, wow,

47:39

I had no idea about this stuff. Firstly,

47:42

it's helping me with my own health

47:44

and happiness, and it's also given

47:46

me a tool kit to

47:48

start introducing these conversations

47:50

with my patients when appropriate.

47:54

So I am optimistic. That's one of the reasons

47:56

for writing the book. And there is a

47:58

course that I teach to doctors called Prescribing

48:00

Life Style Medicine, and we trained several thousand

48:02

healthcare professionals now, and

48:05

some of these concepts I'm bringing

48:07

into the course because I think it's important, yes

48:10

for patients, but also.

48:12

For the doctors themselves. Right.

48:14

I shared a very person sorry about my dad

48:17

before, and that may seem extreme,

48:19

you know, only sleeping three nights a week

48:21

for thirty years, and yes, it

48:24

is quite an extreme situation. But there

48:26

is a version of that

48:28

that I have seen regularly with

48:31

so many patients, and that version

48:33

is I'm working too hard I'm

48:36

doing too much. I'm chasing this

48:38

fictional idea of success. I

48:40

already have enough. I've

48:43

already got enough to feed my family. But I'm

48:45

so used to pushing for the next thing that I

48:48

keep going and I'm making myself

48:50

sick. So that right, your own happy

48:52

ending exercise. I think it's a damn

48:54

good one for doctors to do on themselves,

48:57

and I have used it with patients also

48:59

because it helps them realize, oh,

49:03

maybe I don't need to go for that promotion. Maybe

49:05

I'm all right where I am.

49:06

You know.

49:07

I want to have this teacher who was a

49:09

patient of mine, and I remember

49:11

that he did

49:13

this exercise and then he came in a few weeks later

49:15

to say, Doc, I've got it. I'm not going

49:17

for the promotion. I said,

49:20

okay, great, he said yeah. I realized,

49:22

like I quite like my current position,

49:25

Like I earn enough, I can pay the mortgage,

49:27

I get to spend time with my kids every weekend.

49:30

If I take the promotion, yes,

49:32

I'll get paid a little bit more, but

49:34

actually I'll have to say extra evenings

49:36

in the week at school and I'll be in at weekends.

49:39

And I thought, awesome, Wow, I wish

49:41

I'd been able to make those decisions at that age.

49:44

So, you know, I think it

49:46

can help patients, But in terms of

49:48

the medical profession, I think

49:51

that it is inevitable. At

49:54

some point doctors will

49:56

have to start understanding

49:58

happiness and the skill of happiness better

50:01

for themselves and for their patients because

50:03

what we're doing is currently not working.

50:05

Doctors are stressed out.

50:07

There's record rates to burnout, there's record

50:09

rates of people leaving the profession. There

50:11

was a study in the UK recently that

50:13

says eighty eight percent of

50:16

the UK workforce has experienced

50:19

a form of burnout in

50:21

the past two years.

50:22

Now.

50:22

I don't know whether that's stat is truly reflexive

50:25

of every workplace, but even

50:27

if it isn't.

50:28

It's still pretty it's still pretty bad.

50:30

What does it say about as a society. So

50:33

you know, when answer to your question, yes, I

50:36

do see there's a movement now with more

50:38

doctors being interested. You

50:40

know, We've just been on stage at the Happiness Summits

50:43

and there's been several doctors who've come up to me and spoken

50:46

and saying, I'm using your book with my patients

50:48

already, and I have been. It's making a real difference.

50:51

So yes, I'm an optimist, but

50:53

I do think the medical profession is starting

50:55

to change. I wish it would change a bit

50:58

sooner, a bit quicker, but I think it's

51:00

going to happen.

51:01

Ringan, thank you so much for coming

51:03

on the show, and thank you so much for the great work that

51:05

you're doing.

51:05

Well, Laurie.

51:06

It's been an honor to come on your wonderful

51:08

podcast, and you literally

51:11

are a trailblazer in the world of happiness, and

51:13

you've inspired a lot of my work over the year.

51:15

So you're with these an honest to meet you in person to come on

51:17

the show.

51:18

Thanks again, Yeah, yeah,

51:20

our great audience standing ovation. Doctor

51:24

Rungin Chatterjee was just one of the inspiring

51:27

people I met at the World Happiness Summit.

51:30

I also spent a bunch of time with the events founder,

51:32

Karen Guggenheim, and I got to

51:34

hear how a painful bereavement kick started

51:36

her mission to improve global happiness.

51:39

My husband caught the flu,

51:42

which developed into a pneumonia, and

51:44

within ten days he was gone, Okay,

51:46

well I'm done. And I don't think that I

51:49

was suicidal at all in that regard,

51:51

but I think we can be a live dead, just

51:53

being numb to life.

51:55

That's all to come next time on a happiness

51:58

lab with me, Doctor Laurie Santos,