0:15

Pushkin. Imagine

0:25

you're at a cocktail party and you're getting to know someone

0:27

new. You've just asked the stranger's

0:29

name and where they're from. What's the

0:31

next question out of your mouth? Did you try to learn

0:33

more about this person? If you're like

0:35

most people, you might have thought to ask, so,

0:38

what do you do? And you probably didn't

0:41

mean that question as in what do you do for

0:43

fun? Or what do you do to relax?

0:45

Or what do you do when you want to feel happier?

0:48

You probably meant that query to imply what

0:51

do you do for work? And

0:53

we asked this question because, at least

0:56

implicitly, we think our jobs kind

0:58

of matter for who we are, and not just

1:00

because being a doctor or a lawyer, or a

1:02

teacher or a podcaster helps us put

1:04

food on the table. These days, we often

1:06

think of our jobs not just as a means to an

1:08

end, but as a deep reflection of who

1:11

we are. More and more, our work

1:13

identities wind up taking center stage

1:15

as a fundamental part of our identities of

1:18

how we think of ourselves as people. And

1:21

lately, especially as I've been navigating

1:23

my own sense of burnout and overwhelm,

1:25

I've been wondering is this conception

1:27

of our jobs actually a good thing? Do

1:29

we really want our work selves to be the main

1:32

character in our lives? So

1:34

in this installment of our special New Year season

1:37

of the Happiness Lab, we'll be exploring

1:39

what our wise inner voices might be quietly

1:42

trying to tell us about our relationship with work,

1:44

and whether it's finally time to gently reevaluate

1:47

the identity we get from what we do.

1:50

Our minds are constantly telling us what to do to

1:52

be happy. But what if our minds are wrong,

1:55

What if our minds are lying to us, leading

1:57

us away from what we'll really make us happy. The

2:00

good news, the understanding the science of the mind

2:02

can point us all back in the right direction. You're

2:05

listening to the Happiness Lab with doctor Laurie

2:07

Santos. There's

2:13

this narrative that we should keep searching

2:15

and never settle, and if your job

2:18

isn't perfect, then there's something wrong and

2:20

you should keep looking for a new one. And

2:22

it creates massive expectations and also

2:25

is dangerous. This is author an

2:27

overworked expert. Simony stalls off.

2:29

Simony is no stranger to the question of how

2:31

work fits into our identities. In

2:34

fact, it's a worry he's been personally trying

2:36

to navigate for over a decade. I

2:38

was a twenty two year old at the University of Pennsylvania.

2:41

I was studying poetry and

2:43

economics, and so from an

2:46

early age there was already this tension between

2:48

the pursuit of art and the pursuit of

2:50

commerce. And I got

2:52

the opportunity to interview my favorite

2:54

writer in the entire world. He's this poet

2:57

named a niece Mojgani. He's actually

2:59

the current Poet Laureate of the State

3:01

of Oregon. And I

3:04

was so excited for this interview, and

3:06

I wanted a niece to give me a

3:09

pep talk, you know. Here, I was this twenty

3:11

two year old young poetry student about

3:13

to embark on an unknown future,

3:16

and I wanted him to give

3:19

me that voter confidence to pursue

3:22

something that I love. And so I asked him,

3:24

how do you feel about the mantra love

3:26

what you do and never work a day in your life?

3:29

And he said something that really surprised me and

3:32

has stuck with me since. He said, some

3:34

people love what they do, and

3:37

other people do what they have

3:39

to do so that they can do what they love.

3:41

When they're not working, and

3:44

neither is more noble. And

3:46

I think that last part is key. We love

3:49

to revere people whose identities

3:51

and their jobs neatly aligned. But I

3:53

think a niece's wisdom was telling me

3:55

that the other side of the equation,

3:58

treating a job as a means to an end, is

4:01

no less noble. It's nothing to

4:04

fear being the young naive

4:07

college student that I was. I sort

4:09

of did not heed his advice and spent

4:11

my entire twenties looking for that

4:14

vocational soulmate, looking for that job

4:16

that would help me self actualize.

4:18

And so I worked in advertising,

4:22

and I worked in tech, and I worked

4:24

in food, and I worked in journalism,

4:26

all the while looking for this perfect

4:28

job that will help me become the fullest

4:31

version of myself. Eventually,

4:33

Simony searched for his sacred calling came

4:35

to a head. He found himself at a career

4:37

crossroads when he was forced to choose between

4:39

a long term gig as a journalist at a trendy

4:42

magazine and a higher paying role at

4:44

a design firm. The decision fell

4:46

overwhelming. But the thing that I

4:48

realized in that moment is it didn't feel

4:50

like I was choosing between two jobs

4:53

as much as I was choosing between

4:55

two versions of me, And

4:57

so that was sort of the first kind of colonel

5:00

that put the wheels in motion for the

5:02

book is understanding sort of how did we

5:04

get here? How did jobs become

5:07

synonymous with our identity for

5:09

so many people and so many Americans in particular.

5:12

Simony's upcoming book is entitled The Good

5:14

Enough Job, Reclaiming Life from Work.

5:17

The book explores how we've gotten so wrapped

5:19

up and thinking about work is a deep part of our identity,

5:22

as an almost sacred calling. But

5:24

the book argues that the concept that our job should

5:26

be the main characters in our lives is actually

5:28

quite new. In fact, it's only been

5:30

around for a generation or so. So

5:33

my grandmother, for example, lives

5:35

in a small town in Italy. She

5:38

had five children. They all lived

5:40

in that same small town growing up.

5:42

And my grandma worked in a coffee shop, and

5:44

she has this kind of single bulbous by

5:46

set from pulling down the manual lover

5:49

at the coffee shop. And her identity was pretty

5:51

straightforward. First she was a woman

5:53

of faith, a woman of God, and then she was

5:55

a mother, a fresh

5:57

pasta maker, and her job

5:59

was important to her, but it was very

6:01

much a means to an end. And then my

6:04

generation, you know, I'm probably smack in the

6:06

middle of the millennial generation. We

6:08

were raised with certain scripts that jobs

6:10

should be calling's. Jobs should be something

6:13

where that you can find that you can

6:15

do what you love. And so I think a lot of people

6:17

among my peer group have been searching

6:19

for work as a means of self actualization,

6:22

as a way to make themselves

6:24

whole, and looking for a vocational

6:26

soulmate that can deliver on that promise.

6:29

And I think it actually sets us up for

6:31

a lot of disappointment. So this

6:33

is a phenomena that you've described as WORKSM.

6:36

How would you define WORKSM? Yeah, so,

6:38

workism is a term that was

6:40

originally coined by a colleague

6:42

of mine named Derek Thompson, who's a journalist

6:45

for The Atlantic, And the idea is that work

6:47

has become akin to a religious

6:50

identity. It's something that people

6:52

look to not just for a paycheck, but for

6:55

a community sort of purpose

6:57

and meaning and a way

6:59

of making a difference in the world. And

7:02

yeah, this can be a

7:04

good or bad thing, depending on sort

7:06

of what stage you are life

7:09

and how diverse your meaning making

7:11

and identity portfolios are.

7:14

But the danger of workism is a fu fold.

7:16

The first is when

7:18

you have a work centric existence, you

7:20

can neglect other aspects of who

7:22

you are. The psychologist Esther Perel

7:25

has this great phrase that she says, too

7:27

many of us bring the best of ourselves to work

7:29

and then bring the leftovers home. A

7:32

job is not something that is always

7:34

in your control. You know. This

7:37

is something that we have very

7:39

much seen recently with the pandemic

7:42

and furloughs and people losing their

7:44

jobs for one reason or another.

7:46

If your job is your sole source of community,

7:49

is your sole source of identity, and

7:51

you lose that job, it can really send you

7:53

for an existential loop. So

7:56

this idea of workism is so powerful

7:58

nowadays. But you've argued that this is like a

8:00

recent phenomenon. Talk about some of the historic

8:02

trends that got us here. So if you think about

8:05

the history of the United States, capitalism

8:07

and the Protestant work are really the

8:10

two strands that entwined to

8:12

form our countries DNA.

8:14

So you can sort of trace a line

8:17

from those early days of our country foundation

8:20

to our current culture where what

8:22

do you do is often the first question

8:24

people ask each other when they meet. But

8:26

there are also some of these social and economic

8:29

and political and cultural trends that

8:31

are more recent that has made workism

8:34

particularly apparent in the

8:36

last say fifty years in the US.

8:38

You know, for the majority of the twentyth century, the average

8:40

working time was declining for all

8:43

workers and developed countries.

8:45

This makes sense, you know, as countries

8:47

and individuals become more

8:49

wealthy, they can afford to work

8:51

less. But as the twentieth century

8:54

progressed, the technological trends and

8:56

innovation continued, but certain

8:58

subsets of Americans started

9:00

working more than ever. And so

9:03

the question is why how

9:06

have our peer nations continued to

9:08

decline in the average time they spend working

9:11

while some Americans are working

9:13

more than ever. So there's no sort of single

9:15

explanation. There are many different possible

9:18

ways to slice it. One

9:20

is the decline of other sources

9:23

of meaning and identity in people's lives.

9:25

So if you think about things like organized

9:28

religion. At the peak of religiosity

9:30

in the United States in nineteen fifties,

9:33

over nine out of every ten Americans

9:35

associated with some sort of organized religion.

9:38

But in the last thirty years

9:41

you've seen a precipitous decline where

9:43

now almost one in three Americans

9:46

do not affiliate with the religion, And

9:48

so now the world

9:50

that religion once had in our lives is

9:53

no longer there for a lot of people. But the desire

9:56

for belonging, for community, for

9:58

a sense of purpose larger than themselves

10:01

still exists. So that's

10:03

one explanation. Another is just

10:05

the way that our political system is set up

10:07

in the United States. One of the reasons

10:09

why our relationship to work is so fraught

10:12

is because the consequences of losing work

10:14

in the US is so dire when

10:16

when healthcare, for example, is often

10:19

tied to people's full time jobs.

10:21

And the last thing that I'd like to call out

10:23

is the kind of cultural factors.

10:26

And so in the US in particular,

10:28

we have this very individualistic society

10:30

where we've idolized businesses

10:33

and CEOs have become celebrities,

10:36

and we sort of valorize these

10:38

side hustles and side grinds,

10:40

and you know, work is

10:43

one part and parcel with our

10:46

identities, and a lot of this

10:48

is getting even worse as so many

10:50

of us are working from home now or

10:52

engaging in hybrid work. This idea

10:54

that the culture is telling us work is our

10:56

sacred duty. It becomes even harder

10:58

to separate yourself from that sacred duty

11:00

when the sacred duty is all around you all the time,

11:03

right. You know, part of the problem

11:05

when you frame work as a sacred

11:07

duty or a sacrifice is

11:09

that the more you sacrifice for

11:11

your job, the holier your work

11:14

becomes, and so those long

11:16

hours are further idolized

11:18

and seen as something to pat

11:21

workers on the back, as opposed to

11:23

viewing them as problems or things

11:25

that deserve structural interventions.

11:28

This is the time of year that we get so focused

11:30

on our jobs, well, how we can do better

11:32

in our jobs? You know, what productivity app could

11:34

we download to do better, or even

11:36

rethinking whether or not we have the right relationship

11:39

with our jobs. But often we don't turn

11:41

to our inner value system to really think about

11:43

what we should be doing. Why is that a problem?

11:46

A job is just one part

11:48

of who we are, but not the entirety

11:50

of our lives. And I think if

11:53

we are solely looking through

11:55

the lens of our professionalize to

11:57

determine our well being, it's

12:00

easy to neglect those other aspects

12:02

of ourselves and it's

12:04

easy to mistake a

12:06

job or professional success

12:09

as this silver bullet that will make the

12:11

rest of our lives fall in place. I

12:13

can't tell you how many people I

12:15

interviewed for the book who have

12:18

achieved levels of personal

12:20

success and have still

12:22

felt unfulfilled. And so one

12:25

piece of advice that I might give as

12:28

you think about your goal setting and

12:30

your resolutions and what the

12:32

next year might bring, is

12:34

what are some ways

12:37

that you can invest in the

12:39

other aspects of your life, whether it's

12:41

your relationships, whether it's your

12:43

inner spiritual life, whether

12:46

it's your family or your hobbies,

12:49

or your means of feeling

12:52

whole outside of work that

12:54

also could use a little bit

12:57

more love and attention in this next

12:59

year. We usually assume that having

13:01

careers that give us meaning is a good thing, that

13:03

being passionate about our jobs is something to

13:05

strive for. But when we get back from

13:07

the break, we'll see that there are some real downsides

13:10

to thinking about our jobs as the most meaningful

13:12

part of our lives. We'll hear about

13:14

some of these surprising psychological costs

13:16

when the happiness sad returns in a moment. Author

13:26

Simony stalls Off has written an entire book

13:28

about the psychological costs of investing

13:31

too much in your work, But he also

13:33

experienced the pain that comes from those costs

13:35

personally. When he made the hard decision

13:37

a few years ago to abandon his career

13:39

as a journalist, I

13:42

felt guilty. I felt that I

13:44

was sort of abandoning a calling.

13:47

And democracy dies in darkness?

13:49

And what am I doing turning off one

13:51

more light in the room? And will

13:53

my colleagues and my co workers

13:56

ever forgive me? Will I ever be able

13:58

to publish ever again? And

14:00

I think that black and MTE thinking can be really

14:03

damaging to people when they

14:05

think that their jobs and their

14:07

career decisions take such a taxing

14:10

toll on themselves and their identities

14:13

that it begins to spill into their

14:15

life outside of work as well. And it's

14:17

not just the idea of guilt and sort

14:19

of experiencing guilt. Even when you stick

14:21

with your job, there are high rates of things like

14:23

burnout and stress too, right, Yeah,

14:26

I mean, I think this is particularly

14:28

true in jobs

14:31

that are a flection of your identity. I'll

14:33

speak to journalism just because it's the field

14:35

that I know best. Your worth

14:37

and your self worth are directly

14:40

tied to your output, and a lot

14:42

of the ways I used to obsessively check

14:44

the reader numbers on the articles I would

14:46

publish to see the impact or see

14:48

the difference that I was making. But

14:51

when you rise and fall with your

14:53

output and your productivity, it

14:56

can be very precarious. It can put

14:58

you on an emotional roller coaster. It

15:00

can keep you from being able to

15:02

set boundaries around when you are and

15:04

you're not working, and in a very

15:07

individualistic culture, can

15:09

push people to

15:11

the point where they're not actually being

15:14

more productive. They're not actually

15:16

being the effective

15:18

workers that they want to be, but

15:21

they're sort of caught in this loop where

15:23

the lack of productivity pushes them

15:25

to work even further, which pushes them

15:27

to be less productive and ultimately

15:29

drives people to burnout. And that burnout also comes

15:31

with physical consequences to like consequences

15:34

for your body. Certainly, I love

15:36

the example of being able

15:38

to rest before you need

15:40

it, because often what happens

15:42

is we sort of push the buck down the road

15:45

and we think, Okay, I'll rest once I finish

15:47

this last article, once I finish this

15:50

last report, once I make this

15:52

title or make this bonus at

15:54

the end of the year. But what happens

15:57

when we burn out is then

15:59

we can't work at all. You know. It's

16:01

this sort of mental game

16:04

that we play with ourselves that Okay,

16:06

when this happens, then I'll be

16:08

able to rest, when in fact,

16:11

having a more sustainable, balanced

16:13

approach to productivity to work

16:16

is actually what makes us more

16:19

productive and effective workers in the long

16:21

term. It also makes us better humans

16:23

and better social companions. To talk a little

16:25

bit about the social costs of overwork and

16:27

having your identity be too kind of infused

16:30

with your job, I think one really

16:32

important thing to remember

16:34

is that a work centric existence

16:37

doesn't just take our best time,

16:39

but it often takes our best energy too.

16:42

And similar to an investor

16:44

who might want to diversify

16:47

the sources of their

16:49

investments to be more resilient,

16:51

to have a more balanced portfolio, we

16:54

too benefit when we have a

16:56

diversified identity, when we have

16:58

distinct sources of meaning in our life.

17:01

But if we're spending all of our time working,

17:03

if we're spending all of our energy focused

17:05

on our professional goals, we can

17:08

neglect these other aspects of who we

17:10

are. And so in thinking about

17:12

that, I really advise people

17:14

to do two things. One is

17:17

to make sure that they're carving out

17:19

time and space in order to

17:22

focus on non work pursuits,

17:24

and the second is to act

17:27

to actively do things. There's this phrase

17:29

that I love from the Alcoholics Anonymous

17:32

literature, and the paraphrase it's that

17:34

we can't think ourselves into

17:36

better action, but we can act

17:39

ourselves into better ways of

17:41

thinking. And so if we want to diversify

17:43

our identity, if we want to diversify

17:46

the sources of meaning in our life, we

17:48

actively have to do things

17:51

that reinforce that identity through our actions

17:53

and also through the social communities

17:55

that we create around them. Another problem with

17:57

taking action to kind of diversify

18:00

our senses of meaning, and I've experienced

18:02

this myself, is that you kind of wind up in this interesting

18:05

chicken and egg problem. Right, so you start working

18:07

all the time, and then you're kind of exhausted and

18:09

that you don't know what to do when you're not working, or you

18:11

haven't invested in the friendships or the kind of activities

18:13

that you do outside of work, and then you don't know what

18:16

to do when you're out of work. So then you just work some more,

18:18

and then the cycle gets worse and worse, like to the point

18:20

that we almost don't even know who we are when

18:22

we're not working. Yeah, I mean it's

18:24

so relatable in those days where you're

18:26

just exhausted and all you want

18:28

to do is turn on Netflix because it

18:30

feels like all your brain has the capacity

18:33

to do in that moment, and

18:35

nothing against Netflix. It can be a great

18:38

way to turn the brain

18:40

off. But it's through those

18:42

active forms

18:44

of recreation and leisure that

18:47

we're able to really derive

18:49

more meaning from our

18:52

non work pursuits. And this is

18:54

something that you've talked about in terms of taking

18:56

a more active role in the kinds of things we value

18:58

so that we're not just like inheriting the life values

19:00

that exist around us, so that come from our job,

19:03

but it's like figuring out the things that give

19:05

us value outside of our productivity.

19:09

After over two years of reporting and talking

19:11

to so many individuals, I think

19:13

that work is just one container

19:16

in our lives. You know. It's obviously a

19:18

container for the

19:21

work that we do, it's a container for an

19:23

identity. It comes with a certain

19:25

value system of what the workplace

19:28

measures or values, and

19:31

it can be a great source of meaning

19:33

and identity and purpose. But I think

19:36

it's dangerous when it's the only

19:38

one. So one of the solutions you've come up with

19:40

this this idea of this good enough job. So

19:42

what is a good enough job? And how does it help us kind

19:44

of protect our values from getting too

19:47

caught up in work? Prinsipally, a good

19:49

enough job is a job

19:51

that allows you to be the person

19:53

you want to be. What I like about

19:56

the framework is that it's subjective.

19:58

Maybe it's a certain amount

20:01

of income, maybe it's a certain

20:03

job title. Maybe it's a job

20:06

and a certain industry, or a job

20:08

that gets off at a certain hour that

20:10

lets you pick up your kids from school. Whatever

20:13

good enough is to you, I

20:15

urge you to recognize once you have

20:18

it, because then you can

20:20

convert some of that energy that

20:22

you might be spending questioning,

20:24

oh, is this the perfect job? Is this

20:27

the dream job? Is this my vocational

20:29

soulmate? Into two things?

20:32

One, an appreciation for the

20:34

role work plays in your life, first

20:36

and foremost, that it allows you

20:39

to live and second

20:41

into your life outside of work,

20:43

and ways in which you might be able to

20:45

invest in yourself, in your relationships

20:48

in your community. That can also be a

20:50

source of identity and meaning for you.

20:53

Simone's advice of downsizing to a good

20:55

enough job and investing more energy in your relationships,

20:58

health, and community may sound like an amazing

21:00

idea and principle, but in practice,

21:03

renegotiating a healthier relationship with

21:05

your job can be hard, especially

21:07

when you've been caught up in that cultural work is m

21:09

for a long time. So when

21:11

we get back from the break, we'll learn about some specific

21:14

practices we can all use to reevaluate

21:16

the role that our career plays in our lives.

21:19

We'll see that there are strategies that every one of

21:21

us can use to better align our values

21:23

with our identities, both inside and

21:25

outside of the office. The happiness

21:27

Lab will be right back overwork

21:41

experts. Simone stalls Off thinks that many

21:43

of us would be happier if we took some concrete

21:45

steps towards reevaluating the role that work

21:47

plays in our lives, and the first

21:49

step he recommends involves being more intentional

21:52

about how we use the time we spend away from

21:54

our jobs. I think the idea

21:56

of setting up non work

21:58

time is trying to

22:01

create infrastructure around

22:04

our non work time, as

22:06

a religious institution might create

22:08

infrastructure around worship or prayer.

22:11

One of the benefits of say

22:14

going to a yoga class or

22:16

going on a run is

22:18

their activities that structurally

22:21

prevent us from working.

22:23

I think a lot of times the pieces

22:26

of anti burnout advice that

22:29

we hear like set a boundary.

22:31

The problem with it is that personal

22:34

interventions inevitably break

22:36

you know, I definitely thought this even in

22:39

the writing of the book. I was

22:41

writing a book about how to sort of

22:43

right size worksplace in our life and

22:45

develop a healthier relationship to work. And

22:47

yet the looming deadline

22:50

of trying to get the manuscript done

22:52

pushed me to open up the laptop

22:54

on the weekends when I vowed that I wouldn't be

22:56

working at all. And so the idea

22:58

of kind of setting up this intentional space

23:01

is really to

23:03

make sure that we have this

23:05

sacred space, is sacred time in

23:08

order to do things other than work. One

23:11

small anecdote from one of

23:13

the psychologists that I interviewed. Often what

23:15

she sees when she suggests practices

23:18

like setting up intentional space for non

23:20

work activities is that they want

23:22

to sign up for a marathon or

23:25

for an iron Man, or to try

23:28

and turn their leisure into

23:30

another form of work, and

23:32

what she often advises them is

23:34

to start small, like how about

23:36

a job? And I think that piece

23:38

of advice is really resonant,

23:41

you know, instead of having to think about,

23:43

Okay, what do I want this identity of mine

23:45

to be and what is my six

23:48

month plan for achieving it, just start

23:50

by taking small steps. And this

23:52

gets to another practice you strongly suggest

23:55

in the book, which is this idea that we have to get out of the

23:57

optimization mindset. Generally,

23:59

all the patterns we experience and work like

24:01

wind up getting us to optimize every single second,

24:04

and it can be easy to start to try to do the

24:06

exact same thing when we're dealing with our leisure.

24:09

But the whole idea is to kind of move

24:11

ourselves worth away from being

24:13

productive even when it comes to our leisure.

24:15

Yeah. I think one great antidote

24:18

to people who have a natural tendency

24:20

to optimize is something

24:22

you've talked about a lot on the podcast already, which

24:25

is the value of play. And

24:27

one thing that I like about play is that

24:30

it's grounded not in future achievement

24:33

or success, but present moment

24:35

awareness and whether that

24:37

play is jamming

24:39

if you like to play music, or dancing

24:42

if you like to dance, or free

24:44

writing if you like to write, or playing

24:46

a board game, or doing something that

24:49

isn't a means to another end but actually

24:51

it's an end and out of itself is a

24:53

great way to serve

24:56

as a counterbalance to our natural

24:58

tendency to try and find a productivity

25:01

of every moment of our day. And this connects

25:03

to another practice you've really suggested, which

25:05

is this idea of you know, if we're investing in

25:07

the jamming or the d saying and so on, we

25:10

also are just generally investing in multiple

25:12

different kinds of identities. Have you

25:14

also tried to invest in multiple different

25:17

non work identities. How's that gone for

25:19

you, especially as you've been busy writing the book and

25:21

so on. Yeah, So, as I mentioned, I

25:23

think work really can function as

25:25

a container. But I think the value

25:27

investing in other containers is

25:31

that they help us as

25:33

individuals see that our

25:35

purpose on this earth is not just to

25:37

produce economic value. So, for

25:39

example, one way that I have diversified

25:42

my own identity is I play on

25:44

an ultimate frisbee team. I know I'm

25:46

not doing much to dispel the lanky California

25:49

stereotype here. But one thing that

25:51

I really appreciate about the team is that

25:53

on the team, people don't care

25:56

about the last performance review

25:58

or how many pages or

26:00

words I've written that day. My

26:03

identity on the team is

26:05

completely decoupled from

26:07

my identity as a work and

26:10

that can be a really generative space

26:12

for me to be able to inhabit

26:15

where the goals of our team

26:17

are not tied to our

26:19

economic output. I have to

26:21

show up as someone who plays my

26:23

particular position and supports

26:26

my teammates, but they're not asking

26:28

me about sort of the things

26:30

that might be sources of stress or anxiety

26:32

throughout the day. And I think the more of these

26:35

containers that we have in our lives,

26:37

the more well rounded we are, the more

26:39

resilient we are in the face of adversity,

26:42

and ultimately, the more developed

26:44

we are in the multiple interests each

26:47

of us have. The final practice you suggest

26:49

is a bit more reflective. It's this idea

26:51

of defining what we want our work

26:54

to be because we're not usually the ones that get

26:56

to define that, right, you know, talk about where that definition

26:58

usually comes from for many of us. Unless

27:01

we define for ourselves what we

27:03

want our relationship to work to be, our

27:05

employer will happily do it for us.

27:08

And so one of the benefits

27:11

of putting a stake in the ground and saying, Okay,

27:14

this is what I want my relationship

27:16

to work to be is it allows us

27:18

to fall back on those values.

27:21

It allows us to really understand

27:23

who we are outside of work, and

27:25

how work can serve our

27:28

vision of a life well lived,

27:30

as opposed to being the central

27:32

axis around which the rest of our life

27:34

orbits. And so part of the goal

27:36

of the book is to kind of help you put all of these

27:39

different tips into practice yourself.

27:41

And even though I'm sure it's pretty hard,

27:43

I'm curious if kind of adopting all of

27:45

these strategies has helped you, you know, even

27:47

in the context of writing a book, which is pretty

27:50

hard and pretty kind of productivity focused

27:52

activity. It's an interesting place

27:54

to be in now because I finish

27:56

the book. There are no more words left

27:59

to be written, and it

28:01

feels bittersweet. I am

28:03

letting go of this project

28:06

that I've tinkered with for more

28:08

than two years and had something

28:11

to be an anchor for

28:13

my attention as I go through

28:15

my working days. And

28:17

now I have to eat

28:20

some of my own dog food. I have to practice,

28:22

but I preach by trying

28:24

to find other sources of identity

28:27

and meaning outside of the

28:29

dopamine hit that I get when I reach

28:31

my self imposed goals. And

28:34

one other big change that I made recently is I

28:36

started working for myself

28:39

and it's a really interesting

28:41

moment for me personally, where

28:44

now I no longer have that employer

28:46

prioritizing my weeks. I no longer

28:49

have a manager telling me, Okay,

28:51

this is what's important for you to be working

28:54

on, and I have to

28:56

do some of that work myself, and

28:58

part of that means knowing when

29:01

to stop, because,

29:03

as I'm sure any freelancer someone

29:06

who has done a personal project

29:08

knows, there is an infinite

29:10

capacity of more work

29:13

that we can do. One of my

29:15

mentors and someone that I interviewed

29:18

for the book is this religious scholar

29:20

named Casper to Kyle, and every

29:22

Friday, at the end of the week, he sends

29:24

out the same tweet, which is a great

29:27

source of inspiration for me. And every

29:29

Friday he says, the work is

29:31

not done, but it is time to

29:33

stop. And that is sort of a personal

29:35

mantra that I've adopted in my own life,

29:38

and I hope that you might too. I

29:41

hope my chat with Simony has convinced you that it

29:43

may be time to listen to what your inner voice is

29:45

telling you about work in the new year. As

29:47

Simony eloquently put it in his book, our

29:50

desks were never meant to be our altars. I

29:53

share his hope that with the right strategies, we

29:55

can all begin to develop a healthier relationship

29:57

with what we do for a living. So

29:59

if what you heard in this episode hit a nerve, you

30:02

can start by just gently asking some questions

30:04

about the identity you get from your job. Are

30:07

you treating your career as a kind of moral good

30:09

in ways that leave you overstressed, overtired,

30:12

and burned out. Is your business

30:14

at work covering up a deeper sense of emptiness

30:16

with what you do outside the office. If

30:19

so, maybe this is a year to start renegotiating

30:22

the role that work plays in your life. Maybe

30:24

this is the year to get more intentional about the effort

30:27

and energy you give to your non work pursuits.

30:30

You two can take the steps needed to deprioritize

30:33

work a little in order to prioritize

30:35

life. Next

30:37

week, We'll continue our requests to hear what our

30:39

wise inner voices may be telling us, and

30:42

we'll do that by finding ways to intentionally

30:44

seek out something that many of us have been missing

30:46

out on silence. We'll

30:49

hear why quieting our mental and environmental

30:51

noise can be so essential for our well being,

30:54

and we'll learn some practical steps we can all

30:56

take to get there, even

30:58

in an ever louder world. So

31:01

I hope you'll join me next week for the final

31:03

installment of this special New Year's season

31:05

of The Happiness Lab with me Doctor Laurie

31:07

Santos. The

31:12

Happiness Lab is co written by Ryan Dilley

31:14

and is produced by Ryan Dilley and Courtney

31:16

Guerino. The show was mastered by

31:18

Evan Viola and our original music was

31:20

composed by Zachary Silver. Special

31:23

thanks to Shane Beard, Greta Kone, Nicole

31:25

Morano, Morgan Ratner, Maggie Taylor,

31:28

Jacob Weisberg, my agent, Ben Davis,

31:30

and the rest of the Pushkin team. The Happiness

31:32

Lab is brought to you by Pushkin Industries and

31:34

by me, Doctor Laurie Santos,