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create. Pushkin. When

1:37

you turn off my notifications I don't drive

1:40

you guys crazy. One of

1:42

the coolest things about hosting the happiness lab is that

1:44

I get to meet guests I really admire and

1:46

from whom I learn a lot. Take

1:48

one of my favorite interviewees. Hey, I'm

1:50

Tony Hale and happy to be here. I

1:52

spoke to Emmy award-winning actor Tony Hale for

1:54

an episode about being in the present moment.

1:57

The star of Veep and Arrested Development puts an impact

1:59

on the audience. impressive amount of effort into following mindfulness

2:02

practices in order to tame his negative thoughts. I can

2:04

honestly say that I felt like I was a victim

2:06

to my thoughts and my feelings. I was so drowning

2:08

in my thoughts and my feelings. And when I became

2:10

more of an observer of them and took a seat

2:13

and didn't identify with them so much, you're never going

2:15

to be fully in the driver's seat, but it felt

2:17

like I was a little more in the driver's seat.

2:20

But there was another part of our conversation that left

2:22

a huge impression on me. It was

2:24

about the depth and importance of Tony's religious

2:26

beliefs. The truth is, my

2:28

faith is everything to me. My faith is

2:31

really what, for me, centers me

2:33

in as a cornerstone for me. Tony

2:36

gets many, many unexpected happiness

2:38

benefits from his Christianity. Building

2:40

relationships better, listening more, not

2:42

being so isolated. Like, it

2:44

really opened me up and

2:46

I get a lot of comfort

2:48

thinking of the big picture. Study

2:50

after study shows that people who

2:52

practice a religious faith are significantly

2:54

happier than non-religious individuals, irrespective

2:57

of what religion they practice. People

2:59

who attend religious services report lower levels of

3:01

stress and depression. They tend

3:04

to recover faster from illnesses like cancer

3:06

and live, on average, about five years

3:08

longer. Plus, they often report feeling

3:10

more supported and less lonely. I mean, I

3:12

think about in life, if I'm going somewhere

3:14

and I don't know where I'm going, but

3:16

I'm with somebody who knows where they're going, I relax.

3:19

If I'm in a car and I know somebody knows

3:21

exactly where we're going, I sit back

3:24

and I'm like, okay, now I can enjoy

3:26

the journey a little more. And that's how

3:28

I feel with God. Him seeing the bigger picture of my

3:30

life, it's going to be tough. But

3:32

I know that he is

3:35

with me and he sees where I'm going. That is

3:37

a real balm for me. People have

3:39

said before, which I get, they'll say, well, they see faith

3:41

as a crutch. And the truth

3:43

is I'll take two. I'll take

3:45

two crutches because life is hard. We

3:47

live in a world where independence is

3:50

really praised, but

3:52

healthy dependence is

3:54

okay. There's nothing wrong with being healthily

3:56

dependent on something. And I'm very healthily

3:58

dependent on God. God because that's a

4:00

relationship that gives me a lot of

4:03

comfort. I

4:05

was particularly struck by the importance of Tony's

4:07

faith, in part because I don't really have

4:09

that same spiritual comfort in my own life.

4:12

You see, I'm an atheist. Unlike

4:14

Tony, I don't believe there's a benevolent God who's

4:16

watching over me and helping me to make sense

4:19

of the big picture. But as

4:21

a well-being expert, I also know that I'm

4:23

really missing out on the happiness benefits that

4:25

believers like Tony experience on a daily basis.

4:29

So is there any way I can experience at

4:31

least some of the emotional perks that come for

4:33

spiritual practice? It turns out, yes

4:35

there is. But to get those

4:37

benefits, I'll have to learn to tap into

4:39

an emotion that's key to spirituality. So

4:42

join me on my journey to find awe. And

4:44

bonus, along the way, we'll also get to

4:47

hear about some very cool, very nerdy space

4:49

stuff. When I look up at the stars

4:51

at my icy furnaces that

4:53

are all making the same stuff that

4:56

we're made of. Our

4:59

minds are constantly telling us what to do to be

5:02

happy. But what if our minds are wrong? What if

5:04

our minds are lying to us, leading us away from

5:06

what will really make us happy? The

5:08

good news is that understanding the science of the mind

5:10

can point us all back in the right direction. You're

5:13

listening to The Happiness Lab with Dr. Laurie

5:15

Sanchez. We're

5:22

in this sterile classroom. It's 1979 and UC Santa

5:24

Barbara student Dacher

5:27

Keltner has signed up for a meditation

5:29

class. This guy in this white clothing,

5:32

you know, white linen clothing starts having

5:34

his chant, I am a being of

5:36

purple fire. And that

5:38

was too much for my friend, Memo and I, you

5:40

know, we start laughing, I am a

5:42

being of purple fire, you know, and

5:45

he tosses us out of the

5:47

classroom. Despite this disappointing experience, Dacher

5:49

spent the intervening decades trying to

5:51

understand the special emotion people experience

5:53

during transcendent spiritual moments. Today,

5:56

Dacher is a professor of psychology at

5:58

the University of California at Berkeley. He's

6:00

also the author of Awe, the new science

6:02

of everyday wonder and how it can transform

6:04

your life. Awe is the emotion

6:07

we feel when we

6:09

encounter vast mysteries

6:12

that we can't make sense of with our current knowledge

6:14

structures. Religious people like Tony

6:16

Hale experience awe when they connect with the divine

6:18

through their faith. But awe can

6:21

also occur outside religious contexts. People

6:23

experience awe when they see a beautiful work of art

6:26

or take a walk in nature or look up

6:28

at the vast night sky or hear a stunning

6:30

piece of music. And here's where

6:32

it gets really interesting, Laurie. When

6:34

people feel awe, their wordless, their

6:37

mouths drop, they feel silent.

6:40

And I love the word that my former

6:42

grad student Sarah Gottlieb used to describe it,

6:45

which is destabilizing. Most

6:48

of the emotions we experience as humans feel either

6:50

good or bad. An emotion like

6:52

sadness or anger, that's mostly bad. A

6:55

feeling like gratitude or laughter, mostly good.

6:58

But awe is kind of weird. Experiencing

7:01

awe does feel pleasurable, but it

7:03

also feels threatening and scary. In

7:05

some cases, awe can feel closer to dread. There's

7:08

a really interesting little sliver of time during

7:10

the unfolding of awe where you just are

7:12

like, I can't make sense of what I'm

7:14

seeing. Despite not being religious

7:17

in the traditional sense, Dacher grew

7:19

up with plenty of opportunities to experience

7:21

the secular version of awe. My

7:23

mom taught romanticism and Blake and

7:25

Shelley and Wordsworth. My dad was

7:27

a painter, loved Goya

7:29

and Francis Bacon. And I grew

7:31

up in Laurel Canyon, a very

7:34

wild place in the late 1960s. I

7:38

just could not, not study awe

7:40

given my background. Today

7:42

Dacher regularly seeks out awe, visiting breathtaking

7:44

natural places like the Sierras and the

7:47

Alps and immersing himself in art,

7:49

like the works of Dutch master Peter

7:51

de Hooch. He has these paintings in

7:53

a period of his life when he was really poor

7:55

of just everyday life, and they blew my mind. Dacher

7:58

also experiences awe. reading great literature.

8:01

I love Walt Whitman, who taught us,

8:03

if the soul is not in

8:05

the body, where is the soul? You

8:08

know, what a deep idea. But

8:10

Dacher's Awe also springs from less-gential art forms,

8:13

too. I was in England in 1978, and

8:16

I heard the sex pistols, God Save the Queen, and

8:18

I was just like, this is it. This

8:21

is the truth. You know,

8:23

when I saw Iggy Pop, he stage dives.

8:25

I'm like holding him up by his chest.

8:27

I'm like, that is awesome. Totally slamming. He

8:30

starts bleeding, blood gets on me, and I have

8:32

a classic Awe experience where I touch his arm,

8:36

and his skin felt like God.

8:40

He felt supernatural.

8:44

I'm no Iggy Pop, but Dacher even got

8:46

an Awe boost from our short interview. You

8:48

know, I'm embarrassed. Lori, I just got

8:50

goosebumps with your question. I'm

8:53

not kidding. So vulnerable am I

8:55

to Awe. But experiencing Awe and

8:57

examining it scientifically are two different

8:59

things. First of all, people thought

9:01

you couldn't measure Awe, that it

9:03

was ineffable. I think there was this sense

9:06

that you were bumping into realms

9:09

that are beyond science, the sacred

9:12

spirituality, the sublime.

9:15

But heck, you know, I'm at Berkeley. I

9:18

grew up like this. I have long hair. It's like, you

9:20

know, I should do this. So Dacher became one of the

9:22

first scholars to study Awe. His

9:24

initial task was to characterize this

9:26

emotion's physical manifestations. Awe's

9:29

bodily signs are spectacular, the chills. These

9:31

little rushes of goosebumps that go up

9:33

your arms and up your neck and

9:35

into your scalp. Awe is such a

9:38

strange emotion. Those goosebumps and chills

9:40

are the same reactions we have to a

9:42

scary threat. But Awe can

9:44

also feel reassuring. Witnessing a

9:46

profound event can put the petty concerns of

9:48

daily life into perspective. It reduces

9:51

your sense of stress, stressful things. My

9:53

work colleague, that parking ticket, don't stress

9:55

you out. All this reminds

9:58

me of the calm feeling that Tony Hale gets. Yosemite,

12:00

picked sets of circles with super high degrees

12:02

of overlap. You're not looking at people, you're

12:04

looking at a big slab of rock, and

12:07

you're suddenly aware if I'm part of a community.

12:10

I think we need more of that

12:12

in our world today. I think people

12:14

are really hungering for it, pressing for

12:16

it, and here's an emotion you can

12:18

get in a couple minutes that makes you open

12:20

to that. So feeling awe will

12:22

make me stress less, great. It'll help

12:24

me stop beating myself up about the past and future,

12:27

ideal, and it will help me feel

12:29

more deeply connected to the people around me. Sounds

12:32

perfect, but where exactly can

12:34

I lay my hands on some more awe?

12:37

The Happiness Lab will be right back. You

12:44

can find inspiring stories almost anywhere. For

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instance, check out the co-founders of

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Girls Who Do Interiors. This

12:51

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13:00

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13:02

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13:04

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13:07

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13:09

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IONIQ 6, or the

13:59

adventure-seeking spirit. A

24:00

freaking awesome space

24:03

telescope! But I think his 2011 video

24:05

on the top five awesome things about

24:08

the Webb telescope was his best work

24:10

ever. It is awesome. That

24:12

was how I first learned about this

24:14

amazing project. In the truest sense of

24:17

the word awesome. Hank made

24:19

his famous video long before the telescope

24:21

launched into space. But today,

24:23

that amazing device is up there, gliding

24:25

along a million miles from Earth and

24:27

sending back the most amazing images. As

24:30

I started thinking about how much I loved hearing

24:33

about the telescope and talking about it and marveling

24:35

at it, I started to

24:37

realize that the James Webb may be

24:39

my version of touching Iggy Pop, walking

24:41

in Yosemite, and admiring a Dutch painting

24:43

all rolled into one. And

24:45

so I wanted to spend some time sharing

24:47

my awe about this invention, not just with

24:49

you, my listeners, but also with someone who

24:51

really gets my passion. Hey Mike, how's it

24:54

going? Good, can you hear me, Lori? I

24:56

first met Mike at a small workshop. I

24:58

had no idea who he was, but when

25:00

I learned what he did for a living,

25:02

I completely swooned. My luck with these Zoom

25:04

meetings is marginal at best. I admire Mike

25:06

a lot, but I did expect him to

25:08

be a bit better with technology. You can

25:10

still hear me, right? Mike,

25:13

are you still there? You kind of cut out with your audio.

25:16

Okay, I think I got it. So

25:18

anytime you're ready. Cool, we usually just

25:20

start by just having you say your

25:23

name and your title so you can

25:25

introduce yourself. Yeah, my name is Mike

25:27

Menzel, and I am the mission systems

25:29

engineer for the James Webb Space Telescope.

25:32

That's right, Mike was the lead engineer

25:34

on the James Webb Space Telescope. He

25:36

spent 25 years building the most powerful

25:38

and most insanely ambitious deep space telescope

25:40

that our species has ever created. So

25:43

yeah, he kind of gets a pass on the whole Zoom thing.

25:46

The James Webb may be the most amazing

25:48

object our species has ever designed, but I'm

25:50

guessing that at least some of my listeners

25:52

may not know why it's so incredibly awesome.

25:55

So I'm going to channel my inner Hank

25:57

Green and take some time to unpack my

25:59

wonder about this.