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It's time for part two with Brian Callahan. Let's

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talk about the Cincinnati Bengals offensive

0:45

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1:13

What up Bengals fans and welcome to another episode

1:15

of the Lockdown Bengals podcast. I'm your host,

1:18

Jake Lusko. He's your host, James

1:20

Ruppin. We're going to continue

1:22

our talk with Brian Callahan

1:24

today. We're going to be focused on the rookies and

1:26

we're going to discuss at the end of the show, some of the big

1:28

takeaways from our chat

1:30

with Brian Callahan, because a few things really did stand

1:33

out.

1:33

And so we'll get to those. We're part of the Lockdown Podcast

1:35

Network here on Lockdown

1:37

Bengals, and you can find this podcast

1:40

on YouTube or anywhere you get your podcast. Hit that

1:42

subscribe button, hit the bell on YouTube as well.

1:44

That makes it really easy for you to join the first

1:46

listen club. Those are our favorite listeners, along

1:48

with the everydayers, James. Isn't that right? The people

1:51

that make us their first listen

1:53

every day and those of you that

1:54

make sure you don't miss an episode, because

1:56

if you miss an episode, you might have missed

1:58

part one with Brian Callahan talking about the.

1:59

veterans and some of the points of emphasis that

2:02

they've had this off season.

2:04

And well, we'll talk about some of those again

2:07

today as well. But James, let's get

2:09

into it with

2:11

offensive coordinator, Brian Callahan, talking

2:13

about some of these Bengals rookies

2:15

who have been pretty impressive so far in

2:17

the off season program.

2:19

We've talked a lot about the veterans

2:21

and guys that have been in town at

2:23

least since March, but let's, uh, let's

2:26

talk draft

2:27

a little bit. And before we get to specific

2:29

guys, what was it like

2:31

sitting there for the first two days in

2:34

that being able to not

2:36

just chat with us, but get a new toy

2:38

to work with or a new weapon

2:40

in the first two days of the draft? Yeah, I

2:42

had a feeling that, you know, going into the process

2:44

that there was some guys that we had targeted,

2:47

um, you know, in the first round on offense that

2:50

we knew were likely not going

2:52

to be there when we picked.

2:53

Um, and so I had

2:57

a feeling that it was going to be a little defensive heavy,

2:59

uh, because of where the talent

3:01

was going to fall, that the offensive talent was going

3:03

to go early in the first round is going

3:05

to go early in the second round. And so for,

3:07

for those guys to make it to our picks, the ones that we

3:09

felt like were worthy of those spots, um,

3:12

I didn't think was going to be likely. So

3:14

I had an inkling that it would probably be defensive

3:17

heavy early, um, that based on

3:19

one needs and two, those guys were the better players,

3:22

um, on our board that ended up getting selected.

3:24

So, uh, it got a little boring,

3:26

you know, I was hoping that'd be more, maybe

3:29

something fun to go, you know, a new, new toy

3:31

to add, but, um,

3:33

really feel like we did a great job finding the

3:35

value in those picks as, as the rounds went on

3:38

for us on offense. And, um, the,

3:40

the three guys that we picked in the, in the fourth,

3:42

fifth, and the sixth, um,

3:45

I'm really excited about, I think they all have

3:47

a real ability to help us this year.

3:49

Imagine if you had picked

3:51

an offensive player in the first few days of the

3:54

draft, you would have never gotten the hi, my name is Brian.

3:56

Main tag joke.

3:58

No, you would have all been deprived.

4:00

That was hilarious. That was great. Yeah.

4:02

Well, I appreciate it. Yeah. It was, uh,

4:04

I just, you know, it had been a couple of press

4:06

conferences going by and hadn't been down there.

4:08

I just felt like everyone needed a reminder.

4:10

I love that. Let's talk about these

4:12

guys in order. Let's start with Charlie Jones who,

4:14

when he was picked, it sounds like

4:17

he's mostly worked in the slot and it makes

4:19

sense given the roster.

4:21

But when he was picked and we were doing our post

4:23

draft episode and I

4:26

honestly, mostly for the first time, watched

4:28

a little bit of Charlie Jones's tape, it

4:30

looked like he was winning quite a bit on the outside

4:32

against some pretty good corners. Guys

4:35

that have made it in the NFL.

4:37

Yeah. You think he can play inside outside

4:39

as that positional versatility part of his

4:41

game and just because he looked really

4:43

comfortable playing vertically outside. That's the

4:46

hope. You know, that's the hope is you have a really

4:48

a three,

4:49

a three hole player that can play either

4:51

outside spot or playing the slot

4:53

with effectiveness. And so,

4:56

you know, you got to be mindful of how much you ask

4:58

you got to do early on. And so we've,

5:01

he's worked outside, he's worked inside. We're

5:03

going to let him try to sink his teeth into some

5:06

of the inside stuff early, but he's going to be

5:08

a flexible position

5:10

player for us. He's not one that, that we're going

5:12

to sit and just say he's only a slot or he can only

5:14

play outside. He's going to be able to do

5:16

all three spots at the receiver position and he's

5:19

got the versatility for it. You know, his, his speed

5:22

is, is legitimate. He's got ball

5:24

skills. He plays physical, even though he's

5:26

not a huge person, you know, he's not a

5:28

real, he's not built like Jamar. He's a little

5:30

bit thinner, but

5:32

he, he plays bigger than, than what is his playing

5:34

weight would suggest. And I'm

5:37

excited about him and he's, he's a natural catcher. He's

5:39

got great ability to

5:41

get in and out of breaks.

5:42

He knows how to set up routes. He's really pretty savvy

5:44

for a young player. You can tell he's, he's

5:47

had good coaching and, and Ben

5:49

asked to do a variety of things as a receiver

5:51

that shows up when you see him come play with

5:53

us in the first couple of weeks. You're like, man, this kid's got

5:56

real ability. It

5:58

seems like he's going to be the example. guy as

6:00

you were describing Joe Burrow

6:02

when we asked you about Burrow and this

6:05

is part two that's

6:06

on part one but when we asked you about Joe

6:08

Burrow how he was describing and coaching

6:10

up players and saying

6:12

this is where I want you it

6:14

just seems like Charlie Jones is going

6:15

to be exactly where Burrow wants him

6:18

and so from a football intelligence

6:20

standpoint has that translated and

6:22

then also he seemed to get

6:24

into the locker room like 45 minutes after

6:26

practice ended every single offseason

6:29

session is that true was Charlie just

6:31

always out there?

6:32

Yeah the first part is I do

6:35

think that he shows the intelligence

6:37

and the natural feel for

6:40

zone coverages and leverages he's you're

6:42

going to see he sees a lot more things even just against

6:44

our defense than he probably saw in college you know the

6:47

the way guys play the way they disguise and so he's

6:50

been up to the challenge of trying

6:52

to figure all those things out and he's

6:54

got football's natural to him it makes sense to

6:56

him

6:57

he's one of those guys that takes coaching quickly

6:59

he doesn't make mistakes the same very often

7:01

and that's usually a sign of a guy that's got

7:03

a good base of football knowledge and

7:05

intelligence and so it's only going to grow

7:07

as he plays more against more more looks

7:10

just like all young players it takes him

7:12

a minute to get their feet under him but he's

7:14

done a really nice job probably

7:16

doing a little bit quicker than than I would have anticipated

7:19

so that part's good to see the

7:21

second part of your the question I think

7:24

he he him and Andre I think

7:26

just about lived at the facility for most

7:28

of the offseason

7:30

you know they and

7:33

credit to them because you don't have to do that

7:35

you know they're this is the first time as pro athletes

7:38

there's no one telling them you know what their schedule has

7:40

to be

7:41

they put in a ton of extra work after

7:43

practice making sure they were on top of the

7:45

things they wanted to improve on and then you know

7:47

I'd walk out of the building every night and they'd be down there

7:50

in the weight room

7:51

walking through and and and

7:53

stretching or they're doing something

7:55

to get ready for the next day and I thought that that's that's

7:59

usually a pretty good recipe for success and being able

8:01

to make an impact quickly is that you put

8:03

the time in for it. And then him and Andre both

8:06

have really put a lot of time there. It's been a very, it's

8:08

an impressive start for them. They've made a nice impression.

8:11

Do you think it's nice that they can push each other?

8:13

Because if one is tired,

8:16

they could convince themselves, I'm going to go home, but not

8:18

if Charlie is working or vice versa, if

8:20

Andre is working and Charlie's tired. Yeah, having a workout

8:23

buddy makes working out a whole lot easier. So I

8:26

think that they, they got a good accountability to

8:28

each other. And, you know, they're both very serious. They

8:30

want to be good players and they're very

8:33

serious about their work and their process. And I think

8:35

that that's always a good thing to see guys that

8:37

are naturally that way.

8:38

You don't have to try to show them that path.

8:41

They naturally do it. And so that's great to see.

8:43

And I think it's only going to serve them well, as

8:45

they start getting into the grind of it all year soon

8:47

enough, they're

8:48

going to need all that work. Do

8:51

you have a workout buddy

8:53

in the building? Todd hunts my

8:55

workout buddy, her assistant strength coach. He's, he's

8:57

keeps me, he keeps me straight. That's

8:59

a pretty good workout buddy. NFL

9:02

strength coach. You take that.

9:05

You mentioned Andre and let's

9:07

just stay there.

9:08

Package the receivers together. We'll talk about Chase Brown as

9:10

well.

9:12

I didn't mention having a similarly

9:14

sized player in T Higgins, who

9:17

is

9:17

incredibly underrated, I think by most in terms

9:20

of his ability to change direction, get in and out of his brakes

9:22

because he's so big, you don't see guys moving

9:24

that well at his size very often

9:26

that smoothly. Although Bengals fans maybe are used

9:28

to it with AJ green proceeding T

9:31

Higgins. Is that something that you've seen

9:33

directly contribute to Andre's

9:35

game as he's worked through some of these early practices

9:38

because he's specifically mentioned T Higgins as a

9:40

bit of a role model.

9:42

Yeah, he's done a great job. I mean, this, I

9:44

think that he, Andre's got

9:46

both those young players, got a great

9:48

mentor and Troy Walters. I think

9:50

he's, he's one of the finest receiver

9:52

coaches out there. Played the

9:54

game, understands it, understands how to teach it. And

9:56

so he's been out. He's been all over those guys,

9:58

you know, every day. They work if

10:01

you watch them in their individual, they work,

10:02

they work top of the route and breaks and

10:05

coming out of the break.

10:06

And so

10:08

that's a lot of work that Andre's getting and all of a sudden

10:10

you see over the course of four or five weeks, you

10:13

see his,

10:14

his big strong body pulling out of breaks and

10:16

you're like, man, that looks,

10:17

looks pretty good for a guy his size.

10:20

And I think that that's, you know, T's

10:22

kind of the mark, the benchmark for him is

10:24

if you can move like get out of breaks like T your size,

10:27

you got a real chance to be a dynamic player and

10:30

everything that he's done so far has been,

10:32

has been impressive in that regard. I mean, you see all the

10:34

physical traits and

10:37

it's not, it's not

10:39

too big for him. You know, you wonder coming from a small

10:41

school

10:42

playing at Princeton, what's it going to look like?

10:45

And man, he's been, he's answered that bell

10:47

every time it's, it's been, it's been rung for

10:49

him. And so super excited to see

10:51

what both of those young receivers look like with

10:54

pads on. And then again, when they play in the preseason

10:56

game, see who shows up because there's always those

10:58

moments when you get excited about guys and shorts

11:01

and they put the pads on. And

11:03

then all of a sudden you get to the spot where they

11:06

don't show up in a game. And so you

11:09

want guys to translate and show up when it comes time to play

11:11

football for real. So that's my favorite part of training

11:13

camp in the off season programs when you get to go play football.

11:16

And I can't wait to go see those guys play. Today's

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13:59

got that competitive fire

14:02

with like, you see it with Chad Johnson

14:04

too. Never, never quite burns

14:06

out. Although Andrew Whitworth did say

14:09

that, you know, his leg day program

14:11

isn't quite what it was when he was in the NFL

14:13

last year when people were joking with him about

14:16

that. Let's make sure we

14:18

hit on Chase Brown here. Chase Brown, you

14:20

know, we were talking to Charlie Goldsmith last week,

14:22

I think, and he told us that Chase couldn't start,

14:25

couldn't stop talking about how much he's working

14:27

on being a receiver, how much he's working on the pass protection

14:29

part of his game. And that's tough as

14:31

a rookie, no matter how much experience you have

14:33

in college. And you can see that he has some of it

14:35

when you go watch him at Illinois. But how does that come along

14:38

for,

14:38

for Brown so far in the early part of his

14:40

Bengals career?

14:42

So far so good. You know, we won't know about the

14:44

pass pro part really until,

14:45

until there's, there's some guys

14:48

trying to sack the quarterback, you know, that's the, that's

14:50

always just the marker, you know, if you

14:52

can do it then. But there's, there's technique involved.

14:54

There's knowledge involved. And like you said, for young players,

14:57

the protection parts, a lot. There's

14:59

a lot of things that go into it. It takes a lot of study.

15:02

It takes really disciplined eyes.

15:05

Those are things that take time to learn.

15:07

And I think it's proven over time

15:09

that, that you, it's a process that

15:12

can be acquired. You can improve at that. And

15:14

I think that Chase is going to do a good job. I'm

15:17

anxious to see what it looks like, you know, just like you guys are.

15:19

We want to see what he can do. And that's what

15:21

this part of the off-season is learning

15:23

all the things you need to learn in order to go do that.

15:26

And then hopefully when it's time to play, we

15:28

see all the things that we think he's capable

15:30

of. He's dynamic and explosive.

15:32

It's been fun to watch him come out of the backfield, catch

15:35

the ball. He's got, we know he can carry the ball.

15:37

I mean, he, he ran the ball for 1600 yards. I

15:39

mean, he knows how to run the football and

15:42

the rest of it's going to be fun to see how he develops.

15:44

And you know, he just like those receivers, he's

15:47

always in the building and approaches his job the

15:49

way you would hope a young player would. And in a

15:51

manner that's going to help him hopefully

15:54

ascend quickly.

15:56

I know you don't coach them directly.

19:59

your team every day.

20:03

Always Callahan.

20:05

Like you said, J an insightful

20:07

interview a really did stand

20:09

out to m goes back to

20:12

part one. So part one, you can

20:14

go list the full

20:16

answers from the

20:18

coordinator where he goes things in

20:20

his words and h providing

20:22

his detail. But things

20:24

we talked about wi

20:27

of transition of

20:29

the off midway through

20:31

last year to

20:34

different points of em

20:36

in this offseason program

20:39

through phase one, phase mini

20:42

camp before training the

20:44

things that we talked reacting to those

20:46

practic every

20:49

rep Joe burrow took on

20:51

twitter was a play act was

20:54

either a play action rep.

20:56

And he talked about has

20:58

been appointed empat as they're

21:00

looking for wa and you know,

21:03

they've goi that they think is going

21:05

a little bit longer and

21:07

a some more long developing

21:10

something

21:13

they've really talk so much about how

21:15

Jo be on time, how they've h game

21:19

and even their verti was

21:21

quick game like three back

21:23

foot, throw the vert on

21:26

the field kind

21:28

of thing to be really interesting

21:30

to their optimism about

21:32

t have and the way they're

21:35

offensive line. Yeah, the

21:38

offensive line. Honestly, of

21:40

what we've said on thi

21:43

hopefully helps our liste not

21:47

just making things up hip here

21:49

and hopefully he them having

21:51

not only the had

21:54

since coming to Cinci best

21:56

group that we've seen better.

22:00

That's a that's a tall task, but if it was even

22:02

close to that, that unit, then Joe

22:05

bro is going to have time to throw and we could talk

22:07

about five step or seven step here

22:10

and there and in some long, longer

22:13

developing plays because that

22:15

part of the playbook,

22:16

that part of the offense has been buried,

22:19

buried somewhere deep, deep, deep

22:22

in the basement

22:24

of Paul Brown Stadium. And I think they might have

22:27

actually buried it underneath the stadium because

22:29

there was just no way you could do that with the franchise

22:31

with Joe burrow with that offensive line. And I

22:34

think this offensive line should be better. We'll

22:36

see if it is the play action

22:38

stuff is interesting because we know that that's one

22:41

of, if there are any weaknesses, Joe

22:44

burrow turning his back to the defense.

22:46

But I always would combat that with

22:48

both. You're not fully

22:50

trusting the guys in the trenches. I

22:52

wouldn't want to turn my back either. And so hopefully

22:55

that trust has been built during

22:57

this offseason program and we'll continue to

22:59

develop during training camp. But that's,

23:01

that's the key to unlocking this offense is

23:04

all these little things, longer developing plays,

23:06

play action, all of those things that little

23:08

wrinkles that

23:09

we know what they're going to be a pass first offense,

23:12

but can they add the little wrinkles that make them that much

23:14

harder to stop? Well,

23:15

and he talked about what play action can do to

23:18

a defense and especially

23:20

in the context of

23:22

not even necessarily turning your back to the

23:24

defense of your job, but the continued emphasis

23:26

on the shotgun game that they transitioned

23:29

to last year. Sounds like that's still the plan this

23:31

year. And we'll see if they need to come up with another counter

23:33

punch to deal with what defenses

23:35

are going to do to deal with them being a shotgun

23:38

offense, a duo heavy offense in the running game

23:40

when they do run the ball instead of the wide

23:42

zone team to try to go under center and have really

23:45

an entirely different offense under center, which was one

23:47

of the criticisms of this team in terms of the way it was

23:49

schematically put together last year versus

23:51

what they did

23:52

in the shotgun. And one of the other things that really stood

23:54

out to me that Brian told us was

23:56

the, the emphasis of making

23:59

the running

23:59

game out of the gun look like their past game out

24:02

of the gun and marrying that with their play action concepts

24:04

and their run pass option concepts and just instilling

24:07

those little

24:08

split seconds, tenth of a second,

24:10

two tenths of a second bits of hesitancy in

24:13

the way defensive lines are going to have to play in

24:16

terms of the initial part of the snap and instead

24:19

of just flying upfield knowing it's a pass, giving

24:21

them that little bit of doubt

24:23

that makes them play the run or kind

24:26

of hold their their upfield

24:28

pass rushing moves or penetrating pass rushing moves for

24:30

just that split second to allow you to

24:33

get those extra you know 0.2, 0.3 seconds in

24:35

terms of time to throw

24:37

for Joe Burrow who's one of the fastest time to throw

24:39

players in the NFL in 2022 and

24:42

seeing how all those things come together with

24:45

a full offseason to implement the

24:47

the details which

24:48

will you know Brian Callahan

24:51

was talking about those details. Look at that that's

24:53

a shot back I'll look at our

24:55

every dayers I love that one. Yeah they should

24:57

appreciate that but the details of

25:00

the shotgun game and really getting

25:03

all of those things smoothed out with a full offseason

25:05

instead of a mid-season transition

25:07

that's one of the things that you could see from

25:09

this team in terms of taking a step forward

25:11

that isn't personnel or anything like that it's just like the

25:14

little marginal things that can make you win

25:17

in in that very close game in Arrowhead

25:19

instead of coming down to the wire the way it did.

25:22

Yeah for sure and oh

25:25

all those games seem to come down to the wire and we know

25:27

the margins are so thin and that's that's

25:30

why we analyze this stuff as closely as you do because

25:32

it could be one block by say Cordell

25:34

Voulsen

25:35

that is the the change the changer

25:37

the game changer whatever it is but now

25:39

we have Orlando Brown Jr, Ted

25:41

Karras, you know Brian Callahan

25:43

all kind of bullish on the second year

25:46

guard and that's certainly something

25:48

there's two linemen that have been

25:50

criticized

25:53

a ton this offseason. Jonah obviously

25:55

number one far and away but two is Cordell

25:57

Voulsen. A lot of people have questioned

27:59

history. They tend to go a little bit light

28:02

that the ramp up phase the shorts,

28:05

shorts and shells phase to start

28:07

things before full pads come on and I'm

28:09

just trying to get a lift in when it's light. Let

28:11

me get a lift in when it's light out. Let's go. Sure.

28:14

Yeah, I get it. I hear you excited

28:16

to see these guys in pads though, James, because

28:19

you know, then we'll get to see how Chase

28:20

round us against quote unquote

28:22

live live bullets live play where

28:25

I thought he's

28:27

he I should have mentioned him more

28:30

about the high character stuff. I think he's just made

28:32

of the right everything.

28:34

Like, have you all these I've interviewed him.

28:37

We haven't had him on the pod yet. We should but any

28:39

interview he does.

28:41

He just has the right answer. And it's all it's

28:43

completely buttoned up.

28:44

And you look at him and he's a muscle that

28:47

runs a 438. Yeah, and

28:50

I know he ran a 443 officially he runs

28:52

a four sub 44 40 yard dash

28:54

like yeah, there's

28:57

some commonalities in the kinds of players

28:59

this coaching stuff likes that have really become clear

29:02

over the years and character certainly one of those

29:05

trends and athleticism I think

29:07

is certainly emerging as another

29:09

one in the last two, three years but

29:12

great stuff from Callahan always love it when we

29:14

get to have him on the show. We're back with one more

29:16

episode this week. We're

29:18

in late June James this next episode

29:20

is a male

29:22

your last episode of June.

29:25

And then it's training camp month.

29:27

You better put on those big boy pants.

29:29

Let's go. It's almost here.

29:31

I'm not wearing pants to training camp is hot outside.

29:33

There you go. There you go. Canada

29:35

hasn't fried your brain yet. That's

29:38

gonna do it for this episode of the locked on

29:40

Bengals podcast. Make sure you're back

29:43

with us later in the week and until

29:45

then,

29:46

thanks for listening. Who

29:47

day

29:48

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29:50

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