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Hey, Heart listeners, if you're looking for

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a new podcast recommendation, I have

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Present. They bring you sound rich stories

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tales of soundhounds, artists, architects,

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filmmakers, environmentalists. You'll

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get something surprising in every episode.

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A proud member of the Radiotopia family,

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the Kitchen Sisters Present is available anywhere you

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0:31

From CBC Podcasts,

0:33

Mermaid Palace, and Radiotopia,

0:37

welcome to

0:39

the heart. I'm

0:43

Caitlin Prest,

0:46

and this is

0:49

DAD.

0:53

The series is serialized, so

0:55

if you're just coming in now, go to the first episode

0:58

of DAD, which is called Forgive and

1:00

Forget, and start there.

1:04

We ended the last episode on

1:06

the train. I'm on my way home

1:09

to Ottawa. I feel a lump

1:11

in my throat this time. It's Easter

1:14

weekend, April 2023, the

1:17

Jesus holiday, the man who

1:19

popularized forgiveness.

1:21

The last time I came home to Ottawa,

1:24

I had a little bit of a meltdown after playing

1:26

a piece of audio that I made, the

1:29

episode that is your version of

1:31

the story, your experience.

1:34

Playing it for the family made me hurt in ways

1:37

I wasn't expecting. The reason

1:39

for the trip is to do the follow-up

1:42

interview with my dad, the

1:44

one that I've been avoiding doing since 2020.

1:46

Part of me wanted

1:48

to come and experience the warmth and peace

1:50

and love I

1:51

usually feel when I'm there, but

1:53

the specter of all of this, the

1:56

specter of the absence of

1:58

my dad.

1:59

I'm on my way home. I kind

2:03

of wish the train was going

2:06

the other way. When I arrive through the garage door, I see

2:09

that the bedroom has been pre-rearranged in the exact way

2:11

that I always rearrange

2:15

it. When I'm here, I rearrange it so

2:17

that the bed frame is blocking

2:19

the closet and I'm not going to be able

2:22

to get it. The

2:24

exact way that I always rearrange it when I'm

2:26

here, I rearrange it so that the bed frame

2:28

is blocking the closet and

2:30

the bed is facing the window. And

2:33

then before I leave, I re-rearrange it back

2:35

to the bed facing the door and the closet being

2:38

accessible as it should be. The way

2:40

that I rearrange it is so absurd that

2:42

I know that they would not have willingly arranged

2:45

the bedroom this way. I get nervous. Did

2:48

I forget to re-rearrange the room last time I was here?

2:50

I ask mom, did I forget? And mom says no.

2:53

Dad and I woke up this morning and pre-rearranged

2:57

it for you. Just the way you like

2:59

it for when you arrived. I'm

3:02

so moved by this act of consideration

3:04

that I immediately abandon all of the

3:06

wounded feelings that I have from last time

3:09

and playing the episode for them and them not clocking

3:11

that I was totally fucked up about it.

3:14

I let the wounded feelings dissolve

3:16

into the comfort. The part of me that knows

3:18

that my reality is real is a little annoyed

3:21

and the part of me that prefers to deny

3:24

that my reality is real takes the win. Some

3:26

part of me believes that if I can do

3:29

what I set out to do and actually

3:31

say all the things I need to say to him without placating

3:33

him,

3:34

it'll be like going back in time

3:36

and undoing the damage. I'll

3:39

be healed forever of every single problem.

3:42

Another part of me believes that

3:44

he'll apologize and it'll feel like nothing.

3:47

There will just be words. But

3:49

I spent years trying to get him to say,

3:51

torturing myself wondering what it means, that he hasn't

3:53

said it or he's not going to say it or he doesn't feel like

3:55

saying it or he hasn't figured out how to say it. And then he'll finally say

3:58

it and it won't.

5:59

these thoughts I start thinking all

6:02

kinds of other thoughts I've never thought before. What

6:04

would it be like if you broke

6:07

a contract, quit

6:09

a job, if you never made anything

6:12

about trauma ever again? I start

6:14

writing a list of other episodes

6:16

I could make, ways that I could still somehow

6:19

get the money from the contract while still not

6:21

doing the episodes. And as I think these

6:23

thoughts I realize

6:27

that I'm winning at

6:29

therapy. An

6:31

image pops into my mind of every single

6:33

therapist I've ever had doing

6:35

a standing ovation for the

6:37

thoughts that I'm thinking. Goals are

6:40

Rachel, Bev, Anna. Now

6:42

I'm suddenly realizing that I haven't had that many therapists.

6:45

I'm a Leo. I'm loyal. I

6:48

stay long. But also in the crowd,

6:50

Paula, the company therapist, our family

6:52

therapist, Blake, RHR, Avi

6:55

Tan, Georgia Wall, the ceremony,

6:57

the anti-capitalist life coach, all

7:02

of the potential sponsors that I called and

7:04

then ghosted, the spiritual gangsters, codependence

7:06

anonymous, Johnny Nicholas is 100% doing

7:09

a standing ovation. All of the friends who have

7:11

watched me make a wreckage of myself, were thrust

7:13

into the wreckage of myself, who had to pick up the pieces

7:15

of the wreckage of myself because of the way

7:17

that I believed. The work mattered

7:20

more than my body because my body

7:22

wasn't real to me. And probably

7:24

some people in the radio industry that I wished

7:27

were not doing the standing ovation were happy to

7:29

see I'm gonna make stuff about other

7:31

things. I fall asleep to the sound

7:33

of the applause feeling very certain

7:36

of my new plan. I'm not

7:39

gonna do the story. I'm

7:42

not gonna have the conversation.

7:45

I'm not gonna do the story.

7:48

I'm not gonna

7:50

have the conversation.

7:59

And I wake up. wake up to the smell

8:02

of coffee, being poured

8:04

from a French press into my favorite cup with

8:07

a little bit of warmed milk at the bottom.

8:12

Dad wants to know what my schedule for the day

8:14

is, if I have time for a

8:16

bike ride, and

8:19

whether we can do the follow-up interview

8:21

I've been talking about since 2020 at

8:24

4pm. If

8:27

there's one thing I've learned about healing, it's

8:29

that it's a process.

8:31

I don't bat an eye and I say yes, we'll do it at 4pm

8:34

right after I bike ride.

8:47

And the closer that we get to

8:49

being back home, about to do the interview,

8:52

the more anxious I become. And

8:55

as I notice that I'm feeling anxious,

8:57

I win at therapy again.

8:59

I ask myself what I

9:01

can do to

9:03

take care of myself. Okay,

9:06

so the new plan is, I'm just

9:08

going to sit down and tell dad about

9:10

the predicament I'm in. I'm just going to tell him

9:13

that I have five more episodes on the contract.

9:16

One of the episodes I've finished is the one that

9:18

he heard. I

9:20

don't feel like talking about all the stuff. It

9:22

doesn't feel... I don't even want to tell him that it

9:24

doesn't feel safe because I don't feel safe to say

9:27

that it doesn't feel safe. I'm

9:29

just going to say I don't want to talk about all the stuff, it's

9:31

too painful. I don't want to make a thing about all the stuff,

9:33

it's too painful. So what should I do? It's

9:36

not lost on me that asking him what

9:38

he thinks I should do is not

9:41

necessarily winning at therapy,

9:43

but it's what feels comfortable

9:46

and good to me. Because even if

9:48

I'm not sure, if I can count on him

9:51

to apologize and take responsibility,

9:53

I know that I can count on him to

9:55

try to help me in whatever way he can.

10:00

I'm nervous. I was super proud of you when you

10:02

went to Nicaragua. Oh yeah? And

10:04

so is he. And then again I was proud of you when you

10:06

considered you would incurcornia. Communications,

10:10

yeah. He's doing what I do when I'm nervous.

10:13

Right? I was totally proud of you for coming

10:15

and finding all the free food. He's

10:18

love bombing me. Well this is nice, keep it coming.

10:22

And then again I was proud of you when you figured

10:26

out a way to cut your tuition

10:28

in a

10:29

way. Yeah, seriously.

10:31

And I'm doing what he does when he's nervous.

10:34

I told her all of my revelations about...

10:36

I'm being kind of spiky. Okay.

10:39

Oh, Jesus. And sharp. We're not... okay

10:42

fine.

10:43

We

10:50

go upstairs to what's known as the Cardinal

10:53

Room. In the room, the Cardinal Room. It's the

10:55

room with a lot of things

10:57

that have Cardinals on them. Your office.

11:00

Not my office, but for now. You

11:02

sit on the bed. Oh by the way, these

11:04

are recycling. I know. I don't know

11:06

where's the recycling in this house. Okay.

11:10

In the garage, for sure. You can't miss the

11:12

big recycle bins that you just parked the device inside. So you just

11:14

go out there and go to recycling? Even if my plan

11:16

is to tell him that I don't want to talk

11:18

about the stuff, there's a chance we might talk about

11:21

the stuff.

11:21

Okay then. So, questions?

11:24

I'm doing it. I'm doing it. Dad's

11:26

saying, I'm doing it. Dad sits

11:28

down on the day bed with a Cardinal

11:31

blanket and Cardinal pillows. I

11:33

have to hold this for you. I sit on

11:35

a white wooden chair facing him. And

11:39

I'm fiddling. I'm trying

11:41

to set up a

11:41

mic stand. It's right

11:44

here. Obviously. Okay, Dad.

11:48

I want you to be mentally prepared

11:50

that this will take an hour. An

11:53

hour? Okay, fine. Fine. Okay,

11:55

let's do it. Okay, fine.

11:58

Let's go. Is that okay? Tell

12:01

me, I just sound like, if we don't, I mean, I just

12:03

feel like, we don't have to wait

12:05

until next time. No, I just

12:08

want to get it done. Hello.

12:12

Okay. Say things. Hi

12:15

there. Beautiful. I love your lipstick.

12:18

Thank you. You have great eyes. They started

12:20

green and brown at the same time.

12:22

Yeah. And, um,

12:24

what else? We had a wonderful bike ride.

12:27

Okay. Hello. Hello. I'm going to let

12:29

the interview roll relatively

12:32

as is for almost 15

12:35

minutes.

12:36

You can imagine yourself

12:38

sitting either

12:41

on the day bed facing your daughter or on the

12:44

white chair facing your dad. Hi

12:46

dad. Sup. Or

12:50

you can be one of the Cardinals if you want to

12:54

give you a little bit more of a picture,

12:57

my dad and I have the same nose. They're

13:00

big, big noses. We

13:02

both have the same color of eyes and

13:05

we talk with our hands.

13:09

I'm leaving the first five minutes

13:11

unedited.

13:13

Think about the fact that what you're

13:15

hearing is exactly

13:18

what happened. I guess I wanted

13:20

the interview. I wanted this one to be just

13:22

about like, I guess I just, I don't

13:24

really know what it should be about. And I wanted to talk

13:27

to you about it. Okay.

13:28

I thought I could just ask you

13:30

what it should be about. All

13:33

right. Um, I'll

13:36

tell you kind of what the story was supposed to be. All

13:38

right. That's good. Um, that

13:40

could get me going. Yeah. I guess

13:43

it's like at the beginning what

13:45

I wanted it to be.

13:47

Remember, do you remember whenever I said I want, it's

13:50

about power dynamics. We don't remember

13:52

what I said, but I was uncomfortable and I didn't like

13:54

it. You

13:57

said, you said you are a power. dynamic.

14:00

Oh, yeah, that

14:03

sounds perfect. Yeah. What do you mean by that, dad?

14:06

I mean that everything

14:08

was always revolving around you through

14:11

the trouble years. We were all wrapped around your finger.

14:13

That's what my impression was. You

14:15

know, not yours obviously, but my impression

14:18

was we were all wrapped around your little finger. Natalie

14:21

and mom especially, not so much me perhaps,

14:23

but you know, because I was fighting that.

14:25

I

14:26

was fighting

14:28

it. It reminded me

14:30

of my, well, my

14:32

sisters, both Patty and

14:35

Leanne.

14:36

Patty and I had our share of

14:38

Waltications, but Leanne and

14:40

I, it was very similar.

14:43

Some of us in the family believe that Leanne

14:45

also had BPD. It's also my

14:47

belief that Leanne was traumatized

14:49

at a young age by her dad. It was

14:51

before our teen, we weren't even a teenager, fully

14:54

fledged at it, you know, and then we had it started

14:56

having our, I'd

15:02

like to, I'd like to take this opportunity.

15:04

I mean, I guess it's kind of off topic, but

15:06

seeing as we're here and it's intimate to

15:09

say, to say, you

15:11

know, that I'm sorry about

15:14

in some, you know, in some of the cases and

15:17

many of the cases, the way I reacted, sorry for

15:20

not being complete, not being the adult,

15:23

you know, not being the adult and being so raging.

15:27

I was raging and it certainly brought out the

15:30

raging in you and, but

15:35

like we've said before, I was the adult

15:37

and so I'm sorry.

15:39

It was

15:41

hard though. You have to acknowledge that it was

15:43

hard for me because I came from

15:46

the, you know, my family where my

15:48

dad

15:50

was like, you

15:52

didn't, you did not disagree

15:54

with that guy, you know, even

15:56

though he never laid a hand on

15:59

me.

15:59

But so

16:02

coming back to the my dad thing,

16:04

I couldn't accept that

16:07

two things. My wunderkind,

16:13

you know, all of a sudden

16:15

hated me. And you

16:18

wouldn't listen to me. Like you

16:20

wouldn't obey me. And

16:22

it was more than that. You know, it was like I'm

16:24

the dad. And

16:27

anyway, so there's

16:32

that. So

16:35

what was the question? I said, well, it's

16:38

good that you're getting straight right down to it, I guess,

16:40

because it's

16:44

just hard. I guess it's hard to

16:46

try to tell the story of our

16:49

relationship without

16:53

talking about all that. It's

16:59

like every time I sit down and try to tell all the good

17:02

stuff, that's just the thing. Just like it's like

17:04

the eye of the storm or something.

17:07

And

17:11

I guess it even now, like maybe, like

17:14

I appreciate your apology, but I guess it feels

17:16

like you're still like I

17:18

was going through and listening, pulling

17:20

up all the recordings of over the

17:22

years. And there's

17:24

this one recording where I ask you, what's

17:26

the deal with Jesus dying? And

17:29

you say, you know, it was that you could be forgiven

17:32

if you felt truly remorseful.

17:33

Maybe

17:36

this is a question. What stands in the way

17:38

between like

17:40

it's like you feel bad about it and

17:42

then your mind starts to go into, well,

17:44

but not so bad and there were

17:46

reasons and there were this and that and that. Why

17:49

do you think that you're avoiding

17:52

the

17:53

sadness of

17:58

true remorse? Why,

18:01

when you almost touch the feeling of shame

18:04

or regret, your mind will go back. No,

18:08

but you don't get it that I am remorseful. I

18:11

am remorseful. Like, okay, do

18:14

you want me to cut myself? I'm

18:18

remorseful.

18:25

I think the reason why it feels like you're not

18:27

is because when we talk about it, like

18:30

there's this tiny moment

18:33

of remorse, but then the

18:35

justification happens right after.

18:38

Do you know what I mean? And for me, when I receive

18:40

it, it feels like what I'm

18:42

receiving is mostly justification

18:46

with a little tiny moment of almost

18:48

a glimmer

18:49

of remorse. Okay,

18:54

but I apologize and I'm sincere.

18:56

So I shouldn't go into that, the defense

18:58

mode. I'm

19:01

just trying to, you know, think myself,

19:04

analyze myself.

19:06

Where, what

19:11

caused it? Yeah. You

19:13

know? And

19:18

no, there's no excuse, okay? So there's no

19:20

excuse. It's not an excuse. It's just,

19:24

yeah, it's okay. I'll stop there.

19:31

Mum told me about when,

19:34

after you listened, you know, and I went up to bed

19:36

that you had a big cry fest and

19:41

I, I

19:46

had no idea. You

19:49

know, I had no idea. And

19:53

I definitely want to. deal

20:00

with it, you know, like take

20:02

it all by the horns, you know,

20:04

and have it out

20:07

to try to come

20:09

to some kind of whatever

20:12

kind of resolution that can be,

20:14

we can find.

20:17

I mean, I don't

20:19

want you to suffer.

20:24

You know, we talked about, okay, if we need to go back

20:27

to therapy, let's

20:29

do it. Like, I'm totally down

20:31

with that, you know, to help

20:33

us. And I'm not afraid. No,

20:37

I'm not, you know,

20:39

I mean, and let's

20:47

take it on, you know. So

20:50

if you want to do that, let's

20:53

call Radica. Call

20:56

Radica. Call Dr. Phil,

20:58

whatever, you know. Thanks,

21:00

John. Yeah, no,

21:02

no, no thanks, necessary. I love you.

21:07

And I always have, and I think you

21:09

do know that, but obviously there was some

21:13

damage done. You

21:21

know, so

21:26

where do we go from here? Thanks,

21:31

Dad. That

21:33

means a lot. It's

21:37

okay.

21:39

You don't have to thank me. You don't have to thank

21:41

me, honestly.

21:45

Thanks, Dad. Because

21:49

I think that like, I think it's like, I'll

21:51

tell you, can I tell you a little bit? I

21:55

think for me, obviously,

21:59

You

22:01

know, because we were besties when I was a kid,

22:04

right? Like, you were my best friend, you were my

22:06

favorite.

22:09

And what

22:12

warped me is like trying

22:14

to continue to hold on to that love

22:18

in spite of the

22:19

violence, really.

22:22

That's what's just called it that, you know? Because it's like,

22:26

and what happened

22:29

in my mind as it

22:31

was forming, I learned

22:33

to shrug it off, you

22:36

know what I mean? Like I learned to say,

22:38

oh, that's normal or whatever. That's

22:40

normal, that's regular, everyone's messed up,

22:42

everyone's fucked up. You know, people get angry,

22:45

it's not that big of a deal, you

22:47

know? So I could preserve my

22:49

love for you and preserve my bond

22:52

with you. What I did was

22:54

I just then changed

22:56

my standard of what's normal

22:59

and what is okay, you know? And

23:03

that's what they've explained to me that like

23:05

the split that happens in me is like

23:08

this flip-flop

23:10

between good dad and bad

23:13

dad. Like the dad that I love

23:15

and then scary dad. The good stuff

23:17

makes it more difficult because if you were just

23:19

a bad guy and you were a shitty dad,

23:22

then it would be simple, right? It

23:24

would be like shitty dad, okay,

23:27

don't love him, the end.

23:29

But because it's 98% best dad ever, really?

23:31

98% best

23:38

dad ever and then 2% scary. Yeah.

23:41

Well, hopefully it's scary. It's less scary, not scary

23:43

as much. And it doesn't scare me as much, but

23:46

you know, there's been a couple of times in the past where

23:48

you still have that anger, where you lose control.

23:53

My

23:55

defense mechanism at the time was to tell myself I

23:57

was not afraid. And then my therapy.

23:59

says, that's ridiculous. Think

24:03

of a 15-year-old and imagine a 15-year-old in

24:05

your head. Do

24:06

you really think you had

24:08

the same amount of power? No.

24:11

And do you really think you weren't scared? Really

24:14

think about it. And that's the thing that

24:16

warps your mind too, is when you're panicked, when you're

24:18

scared,

24:19

truly afraid, like in the car.

24:21

Yeah, I'll call you. Yeah, I know. Like in

24:23

the car when you're really afraid. Really

24:25

unforgivable. That's taking

24:27

advantage of my power. That was really

24:30

taking... Like that fear and the way that

24:32

your mind

24:33

learns how to manage it,

24:36

that's the thing. And that's really,

24:39

I mean, the biggest thing, dad, is that

24:41

in a lot of ways, there's nothing,

24:43

like you can't really ever do anything to fix

24:45

that. It's me. I have

24:47

to have worked on fixing that because it's just in me

24:49

now. But

24:51

what does help is

24:54

this conversation is helping because it's like making

24:59

it so that it's not a secret that I'm keeping

25:01

where I'm like, let's

25:04

not talk about how bad that really

25:06

was because it's going to make

25:08

dad feel bad about himself. So it's okay. I

25:10

can have it. There's another thing that is

25:12

when a man talks like that, it's scarier

25:14

because you're bigger, it

25:16

just... And you're the dad, really. I mean... Yeah,

25:19

yeah. There's that. Like what your therapist was

25:21

saying, like, are you kidding? When

25:24

you're 15 versus a 35 year

25:26

old or whatever the age was and in

25:30

control of everything.

25:31

But really, because if I really wanted

25:34

to, you could be... You could kick me out

25:36

and you could be... Kick you out or ground you

25:38

or whatever, or lock you in a closet. Yeah, totally.

25:40

Literally. Then that's the thing, I guess.

25:42

That's what I learned is that there's

25:45

a different... Yes, it's true. We're

25:47

not talking. You're not... And I understand

25:50

that instinct to be like, well, I'm not those

25:52

things,

25:53

but it doesn't help to just to

25:55

then use that as a thing. No, I'm not saying that. I'm not

25:57

saying that. No, no, no. I'm just saying that's how it can be.

26:00

that is a possibility so that adds

26:03

to the scariness. Yeah. But all this

26:05

to say, that does mean a lot to

26:07

me hearing you say that. Because it's

26:09

like, I guess I've been, you know.

26:12

It is real. Yeah, thanks,

26:14

Dad. Thank you. Well, I mean,

26:16

you know, I've been thinking about it ever since,

26:19

you know. And so you're

26:21

here now, so.

26:23

Thanks, Dad. You're

26:28

welcome. No, I mean, you don't

26:30

have to thank me. It's

26:32

a movement. We move forward. Yeah. Even

26:35

coming here, I was worried because I felt

26:37

the split again. Like, I was like, I'm

26:40

upset about these things. I want to talk about these things.

26:42

It might not

26:44

go well. Happen. Might not. It might

26:46

not go well. I'm sorry that you

26:48

had that fear because I'm... Yeah.

26:57

Ashamed

27:00

that you could

27:02

feel that way because

27:04

I love you and I

27:10

want to support you and I want you to feel

27:13

that, that I

27:16

could take it. Thanks, Dad.

27:19

I mean, I do think it's interesting the way that once

27:22

you retired, you became very, you were

27:24

a very different person.

27:25

I'm not surprised, yeah. I

27:30

have to check. I'm like, am I saying, do I want

27:32

to say nice things just because I feel... So

27:34

when people apologize to me, I get embarrassed

27:36

and guilty and then I love bomb. But

27:39

I guess, but no, this is true. I guess

27:41

the reason why I wanted to talk about this

27:44

is because you seem willing, but also because

27:46

I do think that you're rare in this

27:49

regard, sadly. You know what I

27:51

mean? Like, I think that it is rare and

27:54

especially for a man of your age. Yep.

27:57

Of the baby boomer generation.

28:00

I don't think. But I have to say also

28:02

that a lot of men of my

28:04

generation, they try to

28:06

show it in different ways. They might not

28:08

be open to talking about

28:12

it, but try to make up for

28:15

by being there for their children

28:17

or whoever we're talking about or their wife or

28:20

if there's real love there.

28:24

Making up for it. Even

28:28

though they can't. Yeah.

28:30

Well,

28:33

I don't think that there's anything more than that. I don't think

28:35

we need to say more, but I think, I guess

28:37

my only question is like, how

28:39

do you feel about this

28:41

being that we're recording this right now? I'm fine with

28:44

it. The thought did occur

28:46

to me, okay. It's

28:49

very personal. But

28:54

most of my friends don't listen to podcasts. And

29:00

if they did, they're enlightened. So whatever.

29:03

Whatever.

29:04

I mean, like that whole thing about, oh, how

29:06

did you take it? I was kind of going, what do

29:08

you mean? It's just life. It's just

29:10

our life. I was surprised

29:12

at the question. It almost

29:14

reminded me

29:16

of why making documentaries

29:18

is

29:19

actually really good. With

29:22

the microphones, we're here for

29:24

a reason. And

29:27

we're talking about something and it's not

29:29

as scary as just sitting down in a room and

29:31

talking about it. Yeah, I agree. Because

29:33

it's for something bigger. I

29:34

totally agree with that. I was just thinking that actually.

29:38

It's not just about, yeah, yeah, yeah, we're done. It's

29:40

done. Okay. No,

29:42

no, we're done. I was just trying

29:44

to think of the last dregs. Yeah.

29:47

Perfect. Thanks, dad.

29:49

No, you don't need to thank me. Okay. Looking

29:52

forward to it. I was feeling bad about having

29:54

kind of felt, I felt like I was putting

29:56

you off for months. Well,

29:59

because we were just.

29:59

We're supposed to do it in Toronto. We're supposed

30:02

to do it, yeah, it's true. So

30:04

we did it. Yeah, I

30:06

guess I wouldn't mind if you played some rough

30:08

drafts for me. Oh, I will. It's going to go like this.

30:10

Oh, I won't, I won't, not, I won't, not. There is not

30:13

no fear. That's part of the process.

30:15

Basically though, I feel like, you know, it's

30:18

all truth. So, you know, I have

30:20

no problem. I have no problem with truth, you

30:22

know? And

30:23

again, this is how I'm invented.

30:26

All right, we're supposed to be at Mike's

30:28

now. So, but I won't. Oh, God.

30:33

I don't

30:43

even know what to say. It's

30:55

funny. I feel guilty. That's

30:59

a thought.

31:00

I feel

31:02

like I just got what most people

31:04

never

31:07

get to have. Like

31:10

acknowledgement, apology

31:14

and an offer for repair, to work

31:16

on repairing. That's

31:18

just, that doesn't

31:21

happen. That never happens.

31:28

And it doesn't feel fair somehow. The

31:42

apology that when he said the words, I'm sorry,

31:45

that wasn't what was meaningful

31:48

to me because I don't know. I mean, it's,

31:50

he still sounded a little defensive, a

31:53

little bit guarded.

31:58

It was the second part. when

32:00

he showed me that he understood, and

32:03

when he said that he didn't want me to hurt, and

32:09

that he wanted to deal with it and

32:12

make it right.

32:16

I could tell that

32:18

he was saying it out of love

32:20

for me,

32:23

but he wanted me to be better. I

32:31

feel lucky and grateful. It was

32:34

so different. That conversation

32:36

was so different from the one we had the first

32:38

time.

32:39

It's

32:44

so different.

32:49

Damn.

32:58

I feel so different about the whole thing now. Now

33:04

I actually want to make the show. Yeah.

33:49

This recording gets labeled April 15, 2023.

33:55

I go back to Toronto

33:58

with a happy ending to this story.

33:59

on my hard

34:02

drive and I

34:04

set to work weaving

34:06

the tale that

34:09

we are now coming to the end of.

34:23

I wanted the words to mean that I was home free,

34:25

that somehow

34:28

the words could undo everything.

34:35

And for a little while, it

34:38

did. I remembered

34:40

what it felt like when I was a kid.

34:43

I loved my dad. No

34:47

limits and no end, nothing

34:50

painful to overcome. And

34:54

then I was alone in Toronto, finishing

34:58

what I started, listening

35:00

to the sounds of our lives and what

35:03

I saw was a woman pleading

35:06

for her dad to believe that

35:09

what she lived was real. Now,

35:12

as I say these words in

35:15

this moment, what I know

35:17

is that I have to make a promise

35:19

to myself that

35:22

I'll always believe that my reality

35:25

is real.

35:29

And then I'll never trade that truth

35:32

for love

35:34

again. In the

35:43

middle of June, eight days

35:46

before launch day, also

35:48

known as Father's Day, 2023, I send

35:51

everything to my dad. I'm

35:53

keeping my promise. I

35:55

spend a little bit of time wondering what I will

35:58

do if he wants me to change

36:00

things, what it will mean.

36:05

Exactly the amount of time

36:08

it takes to listen to all of the episodes later,

36:10

he sends me this message. Just

36:13

finish listening to all of them. It's

36:17

fantastic. He

36:19

gave two mixed notes and then he

36:21

said, I'd be happy to talk about

36:23

it tomorrow if you want. I

36:25

think it's a monumental work.

36:29

Don't worry about how I feel because I feel really

36:32

good. It's all true

36:34

and touches to the

36:36

core. I

36:40

text him back five

36:42

crying faces, which I used to mean

36:45

happy. Thank

36:47

you, daddy, for hearts.

36:52

What a relief. Period.

37:06

The end. The

37:08

beginning.

37:21

So million years

37:24

into the Our Go

37:45

exploring we biked

37:48

all the way to Chesterville yes And

37:51

I found that house that abandoned house And

37:54

I was obsessed with I

38:02

joke with Natalie that I like white biking with you

38:04

because you're just like me and you can't take the same path

38:06

twice. Especially the

38:09

air we're going to get out with cornchills.

38:13

Ever. Ever. Hi

38:30

Dad. I

38:47

feel like it's only appropriate

38:49

for me to record a Father's

38:52

Day message voice

38:55

memo

38:56

as I listen to all of the

38:58

Father's Day voice memos I've

39:01

ever recorded in the piece

39:04

of radio that I made about us and

39:06

our relationship

39:07

that is going out today.

39:10

It feels like such a gift that

39:13

in our relationship it gets

39:15

deeper and better over time.

39:18

It's never stagnant. That there's always

39:20

more layers to peel back. I'm

39:23

grateful for that.

39:25

I'm grateful too that the man

39:27

of integrity that I looked up to

39:30

when I was a kid when

39:32

we started to fight that

39:34

came into question for me with

39:37

the way that you're showing up. It shows me

39:39

that you are the man that I loved when I was a

39:41

kid. That you're somebody

39:44

of principle and that the

39:46

core and the seed of that principle is like

39:48

love.

41:59

beautifully made. Thank you to

42:02

Sarah Rose, who has also been listening

42:04

to Cuts of This since 2021. Sarah,

42:07

thank you so much for all of your support

42:10

and feedback and long talks on

42:12

Zoom. Thank you to Jen Ng,

42:15

our designer, who also let me stay in her beautiful

42:17

apartment while I was working on this and trying to give

42:20

Natalie space from living

42:22

inside of our family trauma every single day.

42:25

Thank you to Deborah Schurinde, an

42:27

artist and audio maker whose beautiful ideas

42:29

helped us conceive of this special

42:32

family season of The Heart.

42:34

Thank you to Rachel Ricketts, who you heard in the last

42:36

episode, giving me very, very good

42:38

advice. Maria Yablonina

42:41

and Harry Nason.

42:43

All three of these people have been

42:45

integral. Thank you to Damon Fairless

42:47

and Roshni Nair from CBC. Yuri

42:50

Lusordo and Audrey Martovich

42:52

from Radiotopia. And thank

42:55

you to JCJ, Jennifer

42:57

Custer-Giroche, our editor. Couldn't

43:00

have done it without you. She's

43:03

actually doing a special Mermaid Palace

43:05

slash The Heart tattoo promotion

43:08

in the coming month. Do you

43:10

want a tattoo of The Heart's heart,

43:12

the mermaid wave, the word

43:15

no done by an incredibly

43:17

talented artist who needs to pay New York rent

43:19

and is trying to make it in this world doing her art instead

43:22

of making very high end lattes for people who can pay

43:24

seven dollars for a coffee?

43:26

Go to JCJ Tattoos on Insta.

43:30

Thank you to all of the people who I forgot to thank.

43:32

You are actually not forgotten, I promise.

43:35

I will remember and be mad at myself

43:37

at some point in the near future for forgetting. Know

43:40

that if you helped in any way at any point,

43:43

your name is in my heart. And I

43:45

actually do think of you and cherish your

43:47

support often. Big

43:50

thanks

43:51

to Greg Prest,

43:54

the man who not only apologized,

43:56

not only followed up with the transformative

43:59

justice person.

43:59

whose contact info I forwarded to the family,

44:02

not only did he take care of me relentlessly

44:05

and believe in me relentlessly from

44:07

the moment I was born until this moment

44:10

today, not only did he drop

44:12

off a bike at my apartment when I

44:14

was too emotional about

44:16

making the series to even come to

44:18

the door and say hello, this

44:20

is a man who gave me not

44:23

only his consent but his support

44:26

to make everything that you just heard. Nancy

44:30

Press is somebody that everyone wanted to hear from

44:32

a little bit more. It's a little bit hard

44:35

to get a word in edgewise with Natalie,

44:37

Caitlin, and Greg around. My

44:40

mom is an endlessly kind, loving,

44:43

beautiful, brilliant woman who

44:45

also gave me the green light to create a portrayal

44:48

of her that didn't show the fullness

44:50

of all that she is to me. Just know that

44:52

she's an endlessly kind, loving, and

44:55

brilliant woman. Thank you,

44:57

mom.

44:59

If the way this story ended doesn't reflect

45:01

your experience, if you're

45:03

somebody who had to make the difficult choice

45:06

of cutting off your relationship with your parents

45:08

and you're desperate

45:09

to hear that story, please

45:11

read the book,

45:13

What My Bones Know.

45:15

You can also get it on audiobook and it was written

45:17

and recorded by one of my favorite radio

45:20

makers, Stephanie Fu.

45:22

It listens like a podcast that you never want

45:25

to end, I swear. Stephanie

45:27

Fu as a human being and her beautifully

45:29

written book have been a big inspiration to me in

45:31

my journey to heal my trauma. The

45:34

book is about complex PTSD,

45:36

healing from abuse, intergenerational

45:38

trauma within first-generation immigrant

45:41

families, and the journey of

45:43

moving on.

45:44

The journey of deciding to let

45:47

go. The journey of finding

45:49

a new family. Sometimes

45:53

cutting the cord and moving on isn't

45:55

what you need, but the

45:57

acknowledgement and the repair you need isn't

45:59

happening.

47:59

trauma onto your kids.

48:02

It's hard work and it's so worth

48:04

it. Taking responsibility

48:07

for how we hurt each other is how

48:09

a more caring world starts.

48:12

Resources for anyone who is interested

48:14

in learning about accountability and how to repair

48:17

harm. Mia Mingus speaks

48:19

and writes about this a lot. Her

48:21

article, The Four Parts of Accountability,

48:24

is something that you can look up on the internet. Number

48:27

one, naming and showing that you understand

48:30

what you did. Number two, apologizing

48:33

without an explanation. It

48:35

has to just be

48:37

an apology. Number three,

48:39

repair the damage. And

48:41

number four, the most important

48:44

and the hardest step,

48:47

change

48:48

your behavior. Trying to initiate

48:51

a conversation with a parent who

48:53

has been abusive without any professional

48:56

support or even with professional support

48:59

is something that is extremely emotionally

49:01

treacherous and could even be dangerous

49:04

for the person who has been abused.

49:07

Please always

49:09

put yourself first. The

49:11

most important thing is for you to think

49:14

about what you need to feel emotionally

49:16

safe and to figure out how

49:18

to center your emotional safety

49:20

always. Okay, guys,

49:24

this is the end, the end, the end

49:26

of the very, very long credits. This

49:29

is the last piece of work until

49:32

the next thing I make, which might take a while, as

49:35

you might be starting to notice. If

49:38

you're craving more or want to know what's coming

49:40

up,

49:41

follow me on Instagram at CaitlinPrest.

49:43

I'm now kind of

49:46

scheming and dreaming about what

49:49

I want to do next, what I want to do in 2024. What my heart

49:53

is really yearning to do is to get back into

49:55

doing installation and performance

49:58

stuff,

49:59

experience. that simultaneously

50:02

help people get into their bodies while

50:04

also helping people connect with

50:06

other people and also bringing

50:08

them into an alternate universe where magic is real.

50:11

I like creating sound walks that

50:13

go inside of intimate places. So

50:17

if you run an art gallery, a

50:19

theater, or a festival, and

50:22

you want artists to create immersive

50:25

audio experiences that are intimate

50:27

and embodied and magic,

50:29

hit me up, please. This is

50:31

my dream. If

50:34

you're a fan and you have

50:37

the habit of financing films, or

50:39

if you're a producer and

50:41

you know how to finance films, and

50:44

you wanna be a part of my

50:47

very first feature, write to me at

50:49

caitlinatmermaidpalace.org.

50:52

And in addition to all of that, I'm just gonna be

50:54

chilling the fuck out, guys. I am gonna

50:56

be chilling the fuck out for

50:58

the next little bit.

51:01

I'm gonna be eating oysters. I'm gonna be wearing

51:03

eccentric clothing. I'm gonna be

51:05

cooking elaborate meals. I'm gonna

51:07

be turning the messy drawers of

51:09

my apartment into tiny art installations.

51:12

I'm going to be building shelves. I'm

51:14

going to be nurturing all

51:16

of my plants because I've done so

51:18

much healing that I am keeping

51:20

hella plants alive.

51:22

All of that, plus being bewildered

51:25

by the endless beauty of this

51:27

chaotic world. So

51:29

much love, so much

51:31

love, so much love,

51:35

but without self-abandonment, okay?

51:38

This season of The Heart

51:40

is in partnership

51:42

with CBC Podcasts.

51:45

The Heart is a proud member of

51:47

Radiotopia.

51:51

Radiotopia from PRX.