0:00

Hey, heart listeners. I hope you're

0:02

enjoying the show. We just have a quick

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request. We are conducting a

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survey to hear from you, our

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listeners. Just go to survey

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know what you think. We're so excited to

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hear from you. That's survey dot

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survey dot PRX dot org

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heart. It means a lot to

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us. Happy listening, from

0:30

CBC Podcasts, Radiotopia,

0:33

and Mermaid Palace. Welcome

0:37

to the heart. I'm

0:41

Katelyn Preston. And this

0:44

is sisters. A five

0:46

episode series about what it's like to

0:48

love someone who has mental health issues.

0:51

That's me. That has the issues. This

0:58

is a serialized story.

1:01

So if you haven't listened to the other

1:03

episodes, head back to the chapter one episode

1:05

now.

1:08

In the last episode, I got diagnosed

1:11

with borderline personality disorder. This

1:15

is our final episode, but

1:18

beautiful.

1:24

Boundary. Boundary. Boundary.

1:29

Boundary. Boundary. Boundaries.

1:32

Boundaries.

1:34

Boundaries. Boundaries. What

1:36

even is a boundary? What

1:37

even

1:38

is a

1:38

boundary. My therapist, you

1:40

know, she gave me a handout about boundaries, and

1:42

I was wondering maybe we should just go through it together

1:45

and and I kinda, like, didn't write down the answers

1:47

because I couldn't even see where

1:50

the positive of having the boundaries

1:51

were, but maybe we need to, like, really look at that,

1:53

but we're at the coffee shop across from Caitlin's

1:56

house. Relationship maybe

1:58

Everyone keeps telling us we need more boundaries.

2:00

Because I guess just feel like we're throwing around the

2:02

word boundaries a lot. Yeah. But

2:04

what does that actually mean in

2:06

practice? You know? Like you said, like because

2:08

your sisters, you do need more. So

2:10

I bring it up with her using a sheet that

2:12

my

2:13

therapist gave me and we

2:15

start trying to figure it out together. I

2:17

just read it to you? Yeah. Please.

2:19

Personal boundaries are the limits and rules we set

2:21

for ourselves within relationships. A person with

2:23

healthy boundaries can say,

2:24

no, two others. When they want to,

2:26

but they are also comfortable opening themselves

2:28

up. Setting up boundaries with Natalie, setting

2:31

up boundary with my sister,

2:34

The biggest one for me was one

2:36

of the big ones asking her,

2:38

learning how to if I could trust

2:40

her to take care of herself. Serf

2:43

the tidal waves of

2:45

my

2:47

stormy emotional

2:50

waters. And keeping

2:52

things

2:52

in. A lot of telling myself,

2:55

it doesn't mean you're a bad sister if

2:58

you don't let her dump all of her shit on

3:00

you. It

3:01

doesn't mean you're a bad

3:02

sister if you say, now

3:04

is not the best time for that?

3:06

I had to train myself not to feel

3:09

like there was an emergency happening

3:11

when I was having a big feeling. She

3:13

got better and better at asking,

3:18

can I ask you about this? Can I talk to

3:20

you about this? Do

3:23

you have space

3:26

to hear it? Or no? Because

3:30

you're allowed to say no.

3:34

But if you if you can't, then I might I

3:36

might need space. No.

3:40

Let's hear it. Are you sure? I'm hearing

3:42

you. Okay. Are you sure?

3:47

Because I know we people plays a lot. As

3:49

long as you don't expect

3:52

me that if I don't

3:54

have to react

3:56

and take it on myself. You don't

3:58

have to take it on. Okay. Could

4:01

you try to have a list of

4:04

people who you can call

4:06

whenever to outsider when I was feeling

4:08

suicidal. Because I'm not able. It

4:10

was too much. It was too intense. I think that

4:12

was the hardest one for me. I felt

4:14

like a failure. How could

4:16

I feel like a good sister

4:18

and set that boundary.

4:21

I wanna be there for everything. Doesn't

4:23

that mean we don't love each other as much? If we

4:26

don't share as much, if we don't share every

4:28

single thing that comes to our mind, I

4:30

started to understand that

4:32

taking good care of myself

4:35

was the key because

4:37

it meant that if somebody needed

4:39

to set a boundary that I

4:41

didn't feel abandoned or

4:44

helpless or desperate. That

4:47

if I'm good to myself, it sounds so

4:49

basic. But if I'm good to myself and

4:51

I do small things to

4:53

take care of myself every single day

4:55

that things

4:58

don't feel like life ending dramas anymore.

5:00

And if somebody can't help me with a life ending

5:02

drama, it's okay because I can trust myself

5:05

to help myself. And

5:09

that will be a good night separate

5:11

tomorrow and then night together by saying that

5:13

people over Thursday. Yeah. That's

5:15

we started being more careful with

5:18

how often we were hanging

5:19

out. We actually scheduled time.

5:23

To be a part, we agreed

5:26

that it was for the best. I started to

5:29

build structures of support.

5:31

I figured out where were the places

5:33

that I could bring my pain. I

5:36

bring my pain to therapy. I

5:38

bring my pain to an AA meeting.

5:41

I bring my pain to friends who have

5:43

explicitly said that they have space and

5:45

capacity to receive

5:47

it. And sometimes, I

5:50

just sit

5:51

with my

5:52

pain alone. It's

5:56

okay. To sit with

5:58

one's pain alone. In

6:01

the words of Khalil Gebran, I watch

6:03

with serenity through the winters

6:06

of my grief. She

6:08

knew she has to take care

6:10

of herself quitting, drinking in

6:12

order to help me, and to help our relationship,

6:15

quitting again. And then trying

6:17

to quit again. She was taking

6:19

steps to end again. I'd never

6:21

seen her take for herself. And again, taking

6:25

Saturdays off, spending

6:27

that time, basic, relaxing.

6:30

Shit. I didn't know what Caitlin

6:32

who knew what relaxing was. Making my

6:34

bed. It was really beautiful, cleaning my

6:36

apartment, seeing her step up, feeding

6:39

myself for herself. As

6:42

a way to show care for me. When my

6:44

physical being is nourished and cared

6:46

for, my thoughts

6:48

aren't as tortured.

6:51

Sometimes taking space from the person you

6:53

love doesn't

6:53

mean there's less

6:56

closeness. It just means

6:58

that that closeness is thought

7:01

through and healthy

7:04

for each person involved. It's

7:11

Natalie's birthday. It's my birthday.

7:14

We're dressed up. Like

7:17

butterflies from space.

7:20

Company policy is that everyone gets their

7:22

birthday off. All my friends

7:24

are working. Katelyn was on a trip in Montreal.

7:27

As soon as she realized, I had no plans.

7:30

She changed her train ticket and

7:33

made sure she was at my place

7:35

at seven AM. Make me breakfast

7:37

in bed. Gluten free, vegan,

7:40

pierogis. She proclaims yourself my

7:42

birthday servant and me the birthday

7:44

queen.

7:45

You my wish is her is my command.

7:48

My birthday wish was that we dress

7:50

up and bike to the Toronto

7:52

Island. She surprised me

7:54

with

7:55

special bike ride playlist with all

7:57

of my favorite songs on it, and I

7:59

brought as a dab of acid to

8:01

split. It's

8:07

a cloudy, windy day.

8:10

It's kinda beautiful. And

8:13

the waves are lapping on the shore. She's

8:16

looking out at the horizon. Her

8:19

wings, blowing in the wind.

8:23

I walk up to her and put my arm

8:26

around her. We're not thinking about

8:28

work, we're not thinking about our dynamic, boundaries,

8:31

needs. We're just enjoying

8:33

the beauty. Of

8:36

celebrating the day I was born

8:39

together, rubbing

8:42

each other's backs while watching the

8:44

waves. Crash

8:46

against the beach dipping

8:49

our toes in

8:51

and we're coiling as the water touches

8:53

our toes and it's freezing. And

8:57

then we laugh because

9:00

we made exactly the same noise and

9:02

exactly the same time. 321.

9:12

This adventure is like many of the adventures

9:14

that we've had in the past. And

9:18

this time, It's

9:21

different.

9:36

Totally.

9:39

So so yeah.

9:41

Positive things, we're doing

9:43

good. We're the best like it did

9:46

for a year and a

9:47

half. I think so. I think so too. Yeah.

9:51

I mean, it it does kind of

9:53

suck that, like, you had to

9:55

be in my world when I was struggling

9:58

that much. I do think that we're in a good place,

10:00

but I feel like it's because we worked really hard.

10:03

You know, like, we built a foundation of

10:05

good and, like, I'm

10:07

I'm just I'm just so grateful honestly because,

10:09

like, I think I've, like, one of the things that

10:12

like, that you would love me. I saw this, like,

10:14

this piece of art that

10:15

said, like, love me until I'm me again?

10:18

Yeah. I mean, I think Yeah. I'm

10:20

just so grateful that I don't know that line in

10:22

the book, but, like, you have to, like,

10:24

let them peel at whatever base

10:26

they're ready for, and that's the thing.

10:28

I guess, I mean, really grateful that

10:31

you're willing to look at the steps

10:33

that you need to, like, also, like, we'll just see

10:35

these examples, like, people not wanting

10:37

to, you know, like, like, I don't know. Yeah.

10:39

To to to grow from to move

10:41

forward and to to overcome it,

10:43

like, yeah, like, say, yeah, grateful

10:46

that you're so willing

10:48

to look at all that stuff and

10:50

that is a really admirable quality

10:52

that you're able to, like, look at that and

10:55

and use it your head instead of looking at

10:57

it and being scared of it or, like, looking

10:59

at it and being like, well, I mean, you have, like,

11:01

ninety nine million.

11:07

It's been two years in

11:09

our workdays. Are

11:12

very different. Exhale,

11:14

the negative computer energy. Thank you.

11:19

You need love for art. Instead

11:27

of bragging about my crazy reckless

11:30

going to a strip club and getting a

11:32

lap dance in the middle of pandemic with

11:34

a strange man that I met on the street.

11:37

I brag about how

11:39

clean my apartment is. Where everything

11:41

has its right place. Mhmm.

11:43

And what buckets have what stuff? Like,

11:47

hard drive bucket.

11:48

Okay. I know you're

11:49

very proud of the hard drive bucket. Should

11:51

we not listen to it and you sleep

11:54

on it and -- Yeah. -- but it's more morning? Yeah. Honestly,

11:56

I think that seems like the best

11:57

option. Right?

11:58

I think so too. Yeah. Yeah. We just

12:00

close the computer, step away, and

12:02

walk into TV when I don't

12:03

know. That seems like the best option. It has

12:06

to be. It has to be. There

12:07

was more space in our relationship

12:10

for

12:11

Natalie's dramas.

12:12

Something bad happened to me, and I was grumpy as

12:15

to talk about it. And because we're besties, I

12:17

let out all the grumpy. And we had a glass of water,

12:19

and then we left the diners more not gonna

12:21

there. Mhmm. Anyway and, you

12:24

know, I appreciated the Rachel set out

12:26

loud. Like, I feel like you're taking I don't know what I mean.

12:28

I feel this negative energy that you're

12:30

giving. It allowed us to see

12:32

the goodness and the shittiness

12:35

and both of us. It was important for

12:37

me to see

12:39

your devil side. Yeah. You know, because

12:41

I had never really seen that before. And

12:43

I it it Anyway, I've just

12:46

filled out who you are, you know, like

12:48

you landed from pedestal to Earth.

12:50

We need a whole other series to talk about

12:52

all of that. But the

12:54

beautiful thing was that after

12:57

all these years, of trying to

12:59

restore balance. The

13:02

thing that restored the balance the most

13:04

was me actually facing

13:07

my demons Can we

13:09

redo that entire series of events? don't

13:11

really want to. I'm

13:15

me. I'm me and I'm the main ones who sit.

13:20

We still get in sister fights. You

13:23

said

13:26

we're annoyed by the people we love. I

13:29

said, you don't annoy me. You hurt

13:31

my feelings.

13:32

And I can't tell that reality is not crappy.

13:35

I think being the mean one is better than being the

13:37

annoying one. I

13:41

would rather be the mean one. Yeah. You would

13:43

rather And maybe having sister

13:46

fights is one of the beautiful things about being sisters.

13:48

Anyway, is

13:50

that you can fight. And you know that it's

13:53

gonna be okay after. You're allowed to

13:55

be annoyed with me now, but it

13:57

does hurt my feelings.

14:01

Like, separate. I'm allowed to be hurt by it. Yeah.

14:03

I know. You

14:05

were both right. You know? Or But, like,

14:07

We lived in this world where we couldn't both be right

14:09

somehow.

14:21

And it's fabulous

14:23

to see all of you here. Really makes.

14:26

Thanks for coming. This is

14:28

my dad at my parents

14:30

fortieth wedding anniversary celebration.

14:33

And I want everybody to

14:35

raise their glass for Nancy. That's

14:38

my mom.

14:50

I'm probably laughing so hard because

14:53

I know how difficult can be when you love

14:55

someone so

14:55

much. But spending every

14:58

day, you

14:59

get frustrated.

15:06

Oh, boy. Did you hear that?

15:09

You can hear my sister asking me if

15:11

I heard that because at one time,

15:14

She said the exact same thing about

15:17

me. Okay. So I'm just gonna sing one

15:19

special tune that really means

15:21

something to

15:22

me. They don't

15:24

have a backing track for it, sorry dad.

15:26

So I'm just gonna sing an acapella for you guys.

15:34

Love is funny. Or

15:38

it's sad.

15:41

Orange. Orange. Orange. It's

15:51

a good thing. Oh,

15:56

it's bad. Beautiful

16:13

to take

16:15

a chance and If

16:19

you fall, you

16:21

fall, and

16:25

I'm thinking. I

16:31

wouldn't mind at

16:34

all. You're

16:36

not perfect.

16:39

Our intentions can't match

16:42

our impact on each other. Love

16:44

is tearful

16:48

or it's gay. It's

16:53

a

16:54

problem, art,

16:58

play. We navigate together.

17:01

Not always knowing

17:03

if we're on the same

17:04

side. It's a heartache.

17:18

Beautiful.

17:25

But knowing there's a strong beating

17:27

baseline of the most

17:30

deepest intense

17:32

real love. I've ever

17:34

felt in my life. If

17:37

you were mine, I never

17:42

let you

17:43

go. And that

17:47

would be

17:51

But beautiful. It's

17:54

hard. I know.

17:59

But Beautiful.

18:21

The end. It

18:24

doesn't feel like the end of the show. It's

18:26

the beginning.

18:35

I think Nelly Maddie.

18:37

Yeah.

18:39

And are you making a rainbow thing

18:41

with that? Yeah.

18:46

Come on, Natalie. There's

18:49

Natalie on my blow up couch.

18:52

Isn't that cool? Yes. It's a

18:54

major fashion. There's not at

18:56

least

18:56

comfort. And here is the Then

18:59

Katelyn came in. I don't know. Everything

19:02

went crazy.

19:07

You know what? I feel like watching? What?

19:11

American beauty

19:14

or the

19:16

great Gadsby.

19:18

That's that order to come.

19:20

And at the costumes room, to

19:23

eat that as we yeah.

19:33

But I also have a event that I'm hosting

19:35

online that I'm doing at or I sing

19:37

a song and I do a mindful moment.

19:40

Yes. I was with his too.

19:41

So I know. Like, no. It's

19:43

because my sister here inspired

19:45

me to do what I love. And

19:47

she inspired me that I can do it. She's like you

19:49

want to do the bike ride. It's happening. So

19:52

now it's happening. I know

19:55

so excited about it.

20:05

It's even though it's been a roller coaster,

20:08

it's like fun to be able to share this with you,

20:11

you know. Like like

20:15

this is my fucking toy, man.

20:17

This is my love. And

20:20

it's kind of like when I do body paint

20:22

or cosplay with you, you know, and

20:24

I get to kind of like an epic and beer world

20:27

and magic.

20:29

Like, hearing you say. Should

20:32

we be recording right now?

20:36

Recording right now. You

20:39

are?

20:39

Did you know? Oh my god. Oh

20:42

my god.

20:59

Alright.

22:10

This was the final episode of sisters,

22:13

but beautiful. Although

22:16

this is the last story

22:18

episode, we have

22:20

more sisters content coming our way with

22:22

our debrief episode. It's

22:24

coming out next week. We are going

22:27

to answer your questions and talk more

22:29

about making the series and

22:31

the unexplored aspects we weren't able

22:33

to fit into the past five episodes, such

22:36

as the concept of neurodiversity, diving

22:39

deeper into BPD, and how it shows

22:41

up. And some conversation about

22:43

what it was like making the series for

22:46

Natalie and I for being

22:49

you. For us.

22:52

In the next mini season of the show, we will be doing

22:54

what we did in this series, but with

22:56

a new focus. Dad,

22:59

Friends don't let friends clap

23:02

on one and three. That's

23:06

coming out in June. For

23:08

Father's Day. If you can

23:10

relate or see yourself or someone

23:12

close to you in this story, please

23:14

don't be afraid to reach out. Natalie compiled

23:17

a list resources to help better understand

23:19

borderline personality disorder, a

23:21

list of contacts to seek out dialectical

23:23

behavioral therapy, and even more

23:25

useful links. Like online support

23:28

groups, books and podcasts, all

23:30

at the heart radio dot orgsisters.

23:34

You are not alone. You

23:36

can always write to us at the heart at

23:38

mermaidpalace dot org. We would

23:40

love to hear from you. Stay

23:42

in touch. Follow the heart, at the heart

23:44

radio, follow mermaid Palace at

23:46

mermaid Palace art on insta. You

23:49

can follow katelyn at katelyn pressed

23:51

You can follow me at Natalie Presti.

23:54

You should hire Natalie to sing at your wedding,

23:56

just saying, hire

23:58

Natalie to sing at your wedding, hire

24:01

Natalie to singer at your corporate event,

24:03

tire Natalie to sing at whatever you

24:05

would like to have a beautiful singer at.

24:10

You heard synthesizer sounds by

24:12

Katelyn and vocals by me,

24:14

Natalie Preston. This

24:16

episode was directed and written by

24:19

KP. Associate produced

24:21

and written by me and Pete. Our

24:23

editor is the one and only Deborah Suren

24:25

Day. And our researching producer is

24:28

Ali Pinnel. Sister's designed

24:30

by Jen Ng, an original photo

24:32

by Flowerbike Fairies

24:34

biggest fan, Thiranga,

24:36

Remenaki. This

24:38

is the part of the credits where I go

24:41

long. And do

24:43

shout outs and personal gratitude

24:46

to all the people who made this possible

24:49

This entire series would not exist if it

24:51

wasn't for Alexandra Pinnel. Alexandra

24:54

Pinnel is a producer, artist,

24:57

choreographer, theater director,

25:00

radio maker, this woman

25:02

can do literally anything. Every

25:05

once in a while, as

25:07

a creative person, you

25:09

start to lose faith in yourself. And

25:11

in those moments, what

25:14

you need most desperately is

25:16

for somebody to believe in you. Alexandra

25:19

Pinal believed in me.

25:22

She believed in this project, She

25:24

interviewed Natalie, she interviewed Greg,

25:26

she interviewed Nancy, she was

25:28

in it with us for all of twenty

25:30

twenty one. Thank you, Ali.

25:33

Thank you, Ali. Also want

25:35

an extra special thank, Harry

25:37

Naysen. It was him in

25:39

the very first listening session when we were listening

25:41

to a lot of stuff, lots of different things,

25:44

many different things. He

25:46

listened to the sister episode, and he was like,

25:48

oh my god. This is it. You gotta keep

25:50

going with this. Another

25:53

special thanks to Deborah Sharinde.

25:55

Our editor who has also been in

25:57

it with us since twenty twenty

25:59

one. Deborah Sherinde is the

26:01

one who guided week by week,

26:04

Natalie and I. She didn't just

26:06

give us excellent story feedback,

26:08

excellent guidance in terms of how to

26:10

make this beautiful, how to make it coherent,

26:13

how to make it both entertaining

26:15

and educational. She

26:18

fan the flames of our artist souls.

26:20

She gave us assignments to take care of our

26:23

hearts and our minds while we did this

26:25

really difficult work. She told me

26:27

to write a letter to my shame and then burn

26:29

it She is a

26:31

genius look out for her

26:33

work. Try her her. Try her

26:35

to be your editors. You will not regret

26:37

it. Big thanks

26:40

to Myrmeade Palace's HR

26:42

consultant Blake Day

26:45

Blake Day was a crucial element

26:47

that you didn't hear in the series through

26:50

twenty twenty and twenty twenty one,

26:52

helping Natalie and I figure out

26:54

how to work together in a healthy way.

26:57

Thank you also to Pavy Tamu

26:59

Bryant from Freedom Versus. It's

27:02

a organization that does consulting

27:04

for liberation, helping to

27:06

dismantle white supremacy in ourselves,

27:08

in the world, in our workplaces, PT

27:12

has worked with me over the past couple of years

27:15

to break down all of the things that are toxic

27:17

when it comes to working. And in

27:19

so doing has made the way that I

27:21

work and the way that I work with other people

27:23

a more nurturing and sustainable practice.

27:27

Thanks to our family therapist, Radhika

27:30

Verma, who did many, many sessions

27:32

with Natalie and I when we were struggling, with

27:35

all of our things that we were struggling with.

27:37

Thank you to our parents, Greg Preston

27:40

and Nancy Preston for inventing

27:42

us. Thank you to RF Norani

27:44

from the CBC. Some of my best

27:46

work has been made possible by RF

27:49

Norani. And thank you

27:51

to you. Listener, if you're

27:53

a longtime heart fan. Thanks

27:55

for sticking around. And if

27:58

you're new to the show, thanks

28:00

for being here. Thank

28:02

you to the majestic

28:05

orchestra. That

28:07

is the

28:10

universe. Higher

28:12

power. God.

28:16

All of the things that none of us can

28:18

control that came together

28:22

to manifest. These

28:24

five episodes that

28:27

we're incredibly healing to make.

28:41

What do you get when you take award winning

28:44

plays and transform them into bingeable

28:46

audio dramas? Playmate

28:48

from CBC Podcasts brings

28:50

you contemporary theater at its

28:53

best. Listen to hits like

28:55

sexual misconduct of the middle classes.

28:57

Mixed tape, wildfire, where

29:00

the blood mixes, and serving Elizabeth,

29:02

and interviews with acclaimed playwrights.

29:05

I'm Laura Mullen. Chris Tolly and I are

29:07

bringing you a brand new season of Play

29:10

Me, available now on the CBC

29:12

Listen app and wherever you get your

29:14

podcasts. Play me, transforming

29:16

drama for the digital age. Radio

29:20

to be

29:22

From PRX.