0:00

Hey, Heart listeners. I have a new

0:02

series for you to listen to.

0:04

It's called Expectant. I

0:07

just listened to the first two episodes and

0:09

I'm hooked. Is the climate crisis

0:11

a reason not to have kids? It's

0:14

a beautiful new series that sits on the fence between

0:16

imagination and reality, between

0:18

becoming a parent during the climate crisis and

0:21

staying child-free. You

0:23

can listen to Expectant wherever you get your podcasts.

0:27

Check it out. My name is Maddie

0:29

Kelly. I'm a writer and comedian, and along

0:31

with my co-hosts, Mark Chavez and

0:33

Ryan Beal, we are setting out to write

0:35

a romantic comedy movie script that is genuinely

0:38

romantic and actually funny.

0:40

Give me something that's both sexy and

0:42

romantic. Lacrosse. The sport?

0:46

And when we run into trouble, we'll get help from some

0:48

serious rom-com experts, people who have

0:50

worked on everything from 10 Things I Hate About You

0:52

to Mamma Mia.

0:53

This is all gold. It's

0:56

Let's Bake a Rom-Com, available now on

0:58

CBC Listen and everywhere you get your podcasts.

1:01

From CBC Podcasts, Radiotopia,

1:05

and Mermaid Palace, welcome

1:07

to the heart. I'm

1:13

Caitlin Prest, and this is Sister's Debriefisode. Beloved

1:22

audience, beloved listeners, this

1:24

is the episode where we just talk, we

1:27

answer listener questions, do

1:29

what we call post-game analysis off

1:31

of everything that we just finished doing.

1:34

We are here in what we call the mermaid

1:36

womb. There is

1:38

a fuzzy Denmark-inspired

1:40

carpet. It's not real

1:42

sheep's fur, it's fake. It's plastic

1:45

hair, just like my little pony hair, which we

1:47

learned is plastic when we tried to blow

1:49

dry it. Okay,

1:51

there are candles lit. The

1:54

piano is there. The accordion

1:56

is there. There's a picture of our great-great-grandpa.

2:00

with fish. We have a flower

2:02

wall that was made by Natalie and

2:04

her friends at an art thing

2:06

that she did for her art heart, her art

2:08

evolution. We have the classic

2:11

mermaid palace tool

2:13

everywhere of

2:15

all different colors, mostly turquoise right

2:17

now, but the red is upstairs in my

2:19

room. We have a pile of flowers in the corner

2:22

underneath with some gold lamay underneath.

2:25

We have a couple Jesus candles and

2:28

we have a small fridge that

2:29

was turned off because

2:35

it interferes

2:37

with the recording process. And

2:39

Natalie is always very particular to make sure she remembers

2:42

every time. It's a real pleasure. And

2:44

we have a wig, a mermaid wig

2:46

that made its first appearance in 2019.

2:51

A twinning mermaid wig. The

2:53

first time, the first time I actually paid Natalie

2:55

to be in something that I was making

2:58

and we dressed up like twins. So

3:01

this is our introduction to the

3:03

debrief episode where my

3:05

sister and I would like to go

3:08

over a few comments. We

3:10

had some lovely fans message

3:13

us after the final episode

3:15

of the sister series. Are you

3:17

ready to read the first listener

3:20

email, Natalie?

3:21

Yes, I'm so ready. I'm ready

3:23

for you. I'm ready also. Okay.

3:26

Hi, Caitlin and Natalie. My name is Sarah.

3:29

I want to reach out with a question about diagnoses.

3:33

Lately, I've been thinking a lot about

3:36

how a diagnosis can be a story

3:39

in itself and a story that

3:41

we either tell ourselves or that society

3:43

tells us. But I'm curious

3:46

from both of your perspectives,

3:48

what aspects of that diagnosis

3:52

have been helpful either to yourself

3:54

or to your relational development.

3:57

And if there are any aspects of having a diagnosis

3:59

in general.

3:59

that you felt to be unhelpful

4:02

or that you've found

4:05

it better not to claim. I realize

4:08

it's a really personal question so no

4:10

pressure to answer on air if you don't want to but

4:13

thanks for making the series. I was really moved

4:15

by it.

4:17

Sarah,

4:19

thank you. Thank you

4:21

so much Sarah. I love this question.

4:25

Instead of curating a particular

4:28

narrative we get to talk about these

4:30

big questions that we did hope you

4:33

guys grappled with by hearing this series

4:35

so I'd be happy to

4:38

send that over to Caitlin first because I feel like

4:41

you have some significant

4:43

first-hand experience. Yeah, with this

4:45

question. Thanks

4:48

Natalie. So I guess

4:50

I'll start by saying that there's a whole section

4:52

that we'll even pull up and play from my therapist

4:55

explaining why receiving

4:58

a diagnosis is complicated. She was like

5:01

I want to make sure that I'm getting an enthusiastic

5:03

yes from you and I want to make sure that

5:06

you have all the information at, I'm

5:08

quoting what she says in the thing.

5:09

I just want you to

5:11

feel like you have all the information to

5:13

make a choice if you want a diagnosis. Do

5:16

you want to hear? And the

5:18

information that she offered me was

5:20

that there's two big parts of it. Part

5:23

A is that

5:24

sometimes a diagnosis can become

5:26

a self-fulfilling prophecy. That

5:29

because of what you read and because of

5:32

this classification that you then

5:34

apply to yourself as a label

5:36

or as an identity even, it creates

5:39

space or permission almost to

5:41

kind of like live into the

5:44

symptoms and the traits and

5:46

the behaviors that you now

5:49

understand are part of your being. It

5:51

can be something that you become really attached to. Yeah,

5:54

so I think it's not black or white, right?

5:56

I think sometimes a diagnosis can be helpful

6:00

because it's putting a word on an

6:02

experience that we have. Now it's

6:04

like, wow, I get me

6:06

a little bit more. There's literature

6:09

on

6:10

people like me. There are

6:13

communities of people like me, right?

6:16

Who deal with the same kinds of things I deal

6:18

with. Sometimes what can happen

6:20

for folks though, is the diagnosis

6:22

can become kind of like their

6:25

identity, or they get really attached

6:27

to this idea of having the diagnosis,

6:31

and then it shapes their behavior,

6:33

right? So, you know, I'm just giving

6:35

an example, but maybe someone with a diagnosis

6:38

of depression,

6:39

right? Almost wearing it like,

6:41

I'm a depressed person. I'm always gonna be a depressed

6:44

person. And it kind of get

6:46

that belief and that self concept

6:49

getting in the way of them using skills

6:52

or putting themselves out there, right? In

6:54

ways that would be helpful for them.

6:56

With BPD specifically, they talk about the

6:58

fact that you can go into remission. That actually

7:01

if you really do the work of

7:03

understanding the complex

7:06

terrain that is the way that your mind, heart

7:08

and soul all work together and nervous

7:10

system, you know, the way that your nervous system

7:12

is kind of operating the puppet that is your body.

7:15

You can go into a state of like actually kind

7:17

of

7:18

going into remission. That's what they call it, going into

7:20

remission. And so sometimes a diagnosis

7:22

can

7:23

put you in a position of clinging on to that identity.

7:27

Another thing about diagnosis too is for

7:30

lots of these disorders in

7:32

the big book of mental disorders, you

7:34

need to meet a certain number of criteria,

7:36

right? To meet for the disorder. But

7:40

someone with five criteria versus three,

7:43

the first three may be more

7:45

functionally impaired. They might have more

7:47

severe severity. They might

7:49

have more impairment, yet they don't

7:52

necessarily meet for that

7:54

label, right? And

7:57

so I think that can trip people up too,

7:59

where they're like, oh,

7:59

I must be so severe because

8:02

I have this label. When

8:04

actually what we really probably want to be thinking about

8:07

is not the label, but what are the

8:09

things you're dealing with in your life that

8:11

go along with the label, right? The label

8:14

just refers to a cluster of symptoms you're

8:16

currently experiencing. And

8:19

almost every mental disorder is

8:21

totally treatable and

8:25

no longer meet criteria for it later

8:28

in life. But again, for some

8:30

folks who might get really attached to that

8:32

identity, that self-concept

8:35

change, sometimes

8:38

it might be hard for them to want to

8:40

get better. It's complicated. Like

8:42

there's more to it than, oh, you have

8:44

this or you don't have this, right?

8:47

And then the other part of it, part

8:49

B

8:50

of the complicated stuff around diagnosis is the

8:52

stuff around stigmas, the stuff around

8:55

now suddenly being feeling like

8:57

you are in a category that

9:00

defines you, that maybe doesn't

9:02

adequately define you and puts

9:04

you into this box that doesn't maybe accurately

9:07

or perfectly

9:08

describe who you are or how

9:10

you deal with your mental health. It's

9:12

a really shitty name for

9:14

this disorder because

9:17

when someone hears the term personality

9:19

disorder, just that phrase

9:22

sounds very shaming. It's

9:24

not a personality disorder. A

9:27

better term for it

9:29

is emotion dysregulation disorder. The

9:31

other thing about diagnosis is it's like, oh,

9:34

you have a disorder, you

9:36

have an illness, you have

9:38

a disease. And

9:40

the philosophy of neurodiversity takes

9:43

a different approach. Instead of pathologizing

9:45

and being like you have a disorder that you need to overcome,

9:49

thinking about neurodiversity is gentler and

9:51

more empowering in a way because

9:53

it's like, let's understand the

9:56

ways that you are different instead of thinking about

9:58

it as something to overcome or treat.

9:59

or medicate, there's a school of thought that

10:02

is more about learning about the landscape

10:04

of your mind, how it's different from neurotypical,

10:07

quote unquote, minds, and

10:10

thinking about it as just you are

10:12

shaped differently. And

10:14

I think that that way of thinking is really

10:16

important.

10:18

However, I don't

10:20

feel like I deserve to claim the mantle

10:23

of diversity around this issue, that

10:26

I'm just different, you know, and to take

10:28

an accessibility framework

10:30

or frameworks that were developed to

10:32

like support people who are legitimately marginalized

10:35

in our culture, and then apply that to myself

10:38

as a way of understanding these symptoms

10:41

that have actually caused everyone in my life a great

10:43

deal of pain. Like that's where I

10:45

start to feel like I don't deserve it. You know,

10:47

I'm like, I don't,

10:49

what does it mean to like, welcome

10:51

these traits about myself, when the

10:53

whole reason why I even pursued a diagnosis

10:55

is because everyone in my life was so fucking mad at me,

10:58

you know, even my own sister, like it was

11:00

like, it was like people were kind of like leaving

11:02

my life and leaving my life and leaving my life and

11:05

hitting their limit and hitting their limit and hitting their limit.

11:08

And then I

11:09

felt like I had no one left in the world. And then

11:11

I brought Natalie into my life to help me finish

11:13

my work. And even she couldn't handle

11:15

it, you know, like, so when you get to that point,

11:18

you know, you're asking yourself, what's wrong with me? And

11:23

there's a lot of guilt that comes around the

11:25

wounds that I've caused people because of these symptoms.

11:29

So when the diagnosis came and the word disorder

11:32

entered into my world, suddenly,

11:34

it was like

11:35

a relief to have the word disorder,

11:37

because the disorder was accurately

11:40

describing

11:42

all of the painful situations that I was dealing

11:44

with in my life and my intimate relationships.

11:46

Like, it's weird. I mean, in that case,

11:49

and point why I need to do more therapy, like, I feel

11:51

like I'm just shaped differently.

11:53

And I'm just as valid, you know, that the

11:55

way that I move through the world is just as valid as

11:58

everyone else. And I do have a of

12:00

emotional dysregulation and I do see things

12:02

in very black and white and I do put people on

12:04

a pedestal and then as soon as they do something

12:06

that falls outside of my angel version of them,

12:09

they become a demon to me. Like I do do

12:11

all those things, I am really reactive.

12:13

I do have a few layers of skin missing,

12:16

like sometimes an eye roll registers

12:19

to me as a yell, as a nasty

12:21

comment that was never spoken. It was

12:23

spoken in my mind with the

12:25

micro facial expression. All these

12:27

things are real, but then to say, then

12:29

I'm

12:31

just different to have

12:34

the diagnosis,

12:36

to have a diagnosis and say,

12:44

there is actually something wrong with me.

12:46

Like it helped, it

12:49

helped, it helped because

12:51

then it wasn't just that, okay, everybody,

12:54

like you're just failing, you're failing

12:57

to operate as

12:59

a human being the way that everybody else is,

13:02

and that's on you, but now suddenly

13:04

it's on my disorder. But then

13:06

that is, it's obvious and it's clear to see how

13:08

that quickly tips over into

13:11

it's my disorder, it's my disorder, it's my disorder.

13:14

I have been and I was at the time

13:16

worried honestly about

13:18

using it as an excuse

13:20

and I don't think I have. Do

13:23

you think I have used it as an excuse? Like

13:26

I think with everything it's a balance, right? Like

13:28

there's a reasonable amount, like

13:30

even your description

13:32

saying that you're not worthy of

13:36

using that as an excuse in this way is

13:38

another symptom of your

13:40

disorder, like this way that you just

13:43

feel like you're unworthy or

13:45

like that you're bad or evil. I think it's

13:47

more using those

13:49

criteria to see how they fit,

13:51

to see how it's useful to your life and to your relationships

13:54

to take those criteria

13:56

and apply them in a new way, apply

13:58

them to your life. in a new way and the

14:00

way that you interact with people. Like

14:03

just the train that you're going on, I

14:05

totally hearing you say that

14:07

you identified with the diagnosis a lot

14:10

give you more leeway. Like

14:12

so I'm also struggling with the amount

14:15

of, yeah, how much are you supposed to lean

14:17

into it and blame it, use it as an excuse

14:19

thing. Because we both found

14:22

this framework that helps us understand

14:24

our relationships together. Because that's something

14:27

that one of our editors said was

14:29

that like it doesn't exist in isolation, it's

14:31

about relationships. The disorder that is borderline

14:33

specifically

14:35

is something that plays out in relationship.

14:37

It's not something that you suffer through alone like

14:40

depression or anxiety. It is something

14:42

that shows up and causes problems

14:44

in relationship, which was a huge,

14:47

go on.

14:48

I felt like I was betraying you

14:50

by reading that book and thinking that you might fit

14:52

in those categories. It was a relief

14:55

for both of us to see that together but

14:57

also to have you give me permission

14:59

to like

15:00

see those qualities. And now we've kind

15:02

of found a place where it sits in our lives.

15:05

For me, I understand, I 100%

15:07

understand people's skepticism

15:10

towards institutionalized Western

15:12

medicine, especially when it comes to mental health,

15:14

especially as a woman, especially as a queer woman.

15:16

And I'm sure lots of women of color are skeptical

15:19

because the medical institutions have not

15:21

been kind to women.

15:24

The studies that they've done have not been accurate.

15:26

I was honestly critical of that too. I was critical

15:28

of DBT, of dialectical behavioral therapy,

15:31

which basically invites you to

15:34

fact check your own feelings. And

15:36

I'm like, I don't want to fact check my own feelings.

15:38

My feelings are facts. My

15:40

feeling is happening in my body right now. It's telling

15:42

me that I'm in danger and that's real.

15:45

Don't tell me it's not real. Don't guess like me. But

15:48

then I realized that like learning

15:50

more, it's not about saying your feelings aren't

15:52

real. It's about saying your feelings are real

15:55

and they're painting this picture of reality.

15:58

Across the day, my whole. whole

16:00

understanding of what's true and not true in my

16:03

life would change from

16:06

hour to hour, minute to minute.

16:08

And it's a whiplash. It's

16:10

a whiplash. It's a fucking crazy whiplash.

16:14

Having my feelings say, I feel I'm happy now and

16:17

everything is good. I'm sad now and everything is

16:19

bad. I'm mad now and everything is

16:21

attacking me. And so what I learned

16:23

to do with DBT and through

16:25

the diagnosis is to kind of take some distance

16:28

from the feelings. DBT is based

16:30

on Buddhist practices of observing,

16:33

observing the feelings and then the story that

16:36

my brain creates to

16:38

explain what the feelings are

16:41

and then shifting and seeing that wow, a completely

16:43

opposite narrative has been created because

16:45

I'm happy now. And then learning

16:48

how to kind of just take a beat, take a pause

16:50

and like look at all of those different messages

16:53

that I'm getting from my body and

16:55

taking things slower and doing

16:58

things with intention, knowing,

17:00

kind of trying to take into account

17:03

the hundred different ways of looking at my life and

17:06

trying to come up with some kind of average in the

17:08

middle

17:09

instead of swinging

17:11

from pole to pole to pole to pole to pole to pole to pole

17:13

to pole. Like, I mean, I would sometimes have this experience

17:16

of one day taking a bunch of actions

17:18

based on a feeling I was having that was completely

17:21

overwhelming, that felt like everything

17:23

that was real about being alive and

17:25

then waking up the next day feeling something completely different

17:27

and then feeling betrayed by the self that did

17:30

all that other stuff and then start to

17:32

go and undo all the things that

17:34

that sad Caitlin did because now happy

17:36

Caitlin is like, what the hell was she thinking? And

17:38

then the next day being scared

17:41

Caitlin and then scared Caitlin being like, happy Caitlin

17:43

did all this stuff, you know, and so constantly

17:46

shifting like the ground is always

17:48

shifting. Yeah. So that's just

17:50

one example of how the diagnosis

17:53

helped me, how the knowledge of the diagnosis

17:55

helped me to start to regulate and

17:57

become a more stable person.

17:59

I think this goes really well into basically

18:02

another person, a

18:04

lovely person messaged me and

18:06

said, hi, Natalie, are y'all

18:09

still taking questions? If so, I have

18:11

a long meandering anonymous question

18:13

for Caitlin. Do

18:15

you really believe in your core

18:17

that your diagnosis is accurate?

18:20

What did the diagnosis give you access

18:22

to that you didn't already have? I

18:25

have very little trust remaining in the psychiatric

18:27

institution, but I'm wondering if it would

18:29

be worth it to get assessed. I do feel a little

18:32

silly investigating a diagnosis based on a podcast,

18:34

which even one that has meant

18:36

so much to me over the years. You've changed

18:38

my life in other ways. Why not here? I'm

18:41

so burnt out searching for treatment.

18:44

I've been in therapy since middle school, medicated

18:46

since high school, in addition to my mind.

18:48

Now I'm also trying to find treatment for my body.

18:50

The past two episodes seem to be the message that,

18:53

yes, it's worth it, but I'm so tired.

18:55

How can I find the energy to keep fighting psychiatrists,

18:59

fighting my own hopelessness, fighting

19:01

mental illness? I think that's not

19:03

silly at all. I think that's awesome that

19:05

you're thinking about it based on something you

19:07

heard, which is a story. And that's

19:09

what stories are here for, to tell other

19:12

people who are dealing with the same thing ways

19:14

that we help navigate it through it ourselves

19:16

based on our personal experience. So don't

19:19

feel silly about that. Thank you for your kind

19:21

words, and thank you for sharing every single time

19:23

someone shares with me the work that I've been doing

19:26

has helped. Just

19:28

makes me feel about

19:30

to tear up a little bit, because I'm

19:32

only just now

19:35

because I'm on my healing journey realizing how hard it's

19:37

been. And so knowing that

19:39

it was meaningful, that the hard work that

19:41

I did, and the suffering that

19:43

I endured making it

19:46

actually had

19:49

the impact that I hoped it

19:51

really lightens the load. So thank

19:53

you. Regarding

19:57

BPD, I guess that's a thing.

19:59

I mean, you're kind of hitting a tender area here

20:02

because I, number one, I'll

20:04

just start by saying another trait,

20:06

another symptom of BPD is to self-gasolite.

20:09

It's like you're constantly questioning your sense of reality

20:12

and you don't trust your own sense of reality

20:14

to the extent that your sense of reality

20:16

is actually something that you look for

20:19

from other people.

20:20

And one of the biggest parts of recovering

20:23

is starting to try

20:25

to figure out how do you get your sense of reality

20:27

from yourself,

20:30

like knowing what's real and not real for yourself.

20:33

So I start with that, that being invalidated

20:35

and invalidating yourself is a big

20:38

part of BPD as I've understood

20:40

it. So even as I'm saying this, I'm like, yeah,

20:42

I don't know if it is accurate. Maybe I am being

20:45

a drama queen. Maybe I

20:47

am making it into more of a big deal than it is.

20:49

And that's something that I kind of

20:51

feel guilty and stay up at night

20:53

wondering about. I'm just like,

20:56

is it really that bad? And

20:58

I think that that's the hardest thing, honestly.

21:01

That is the hardest thing about any kind of pain

21:03

is the question of is it really that bad? Is

21:07

this big enough to really justify

21:09

doing something about? Is this big enough

21:12

to feel sad about? Is this big enough

21:14

to seek treatment about? Tennessee Watson,

21:17

who was my co-producer

21:19

on a series that we did many, many years

21:21

ago called Silent Evidence about

21:23

abuse. And she said, I always

21:25

quote her, it doesn't help anyone

21:27

to

21:28

raise the bar for what warrants

21:30

speaking out. And

21:36

I still go back to that because

21:39

I feel guilty every time I speak

21:41

out about anything. So I

21:43

offer that. And then

21:45

I guess I'll say that, do

21:49

I think it's accurate? All

21:53

I can say is that I felt

21:57

the resounding relief.

22:00

that a person feels when truth

22:02

is spoken,

22:05

when I read about the symptoms.

22:07

It was just undeniable. It was like reading

22:10

a horoscope that was bang on. That's

22:12

how it felt to me. Of

22:15

course, because again, we do talk

22:17

about or mention high functioning, and

22:20

that word is messed up, but it is more confusing

22:23

when you're doing things in the world

22:26

that people associate with success. You're

22:29

a well-liked person generally, and

22:31

I have been able to do a lot professionally,

22:33

and I have thrived professionally

22:35

in a lot of ways. That

22:38

almost makes it harder to actually admit when

22:40

things weren't okay. The first time someone

22:43

begged me to seek help

22:44

was in 2018. It was five whole

22:47

years before I actually took it seriously.

22:49

How could I be depressed? All my

22:51

dreams are coming true. So that balance

22:53

of

22:54

you measuring the things that are functioning

22:57

from a capitalist society's point of

22:59

view with the way that you're suffering

23:02

alone behind closed doors, it

23:04

doesn't help, I guess, to measure that way,

23:06

I think. I was able to reconcile

23:09

my,

23:10

yeah, I had a different opinion of you than the whole world

23:12

was seeing. So that was kind of gaslighting

23:14

for me, was that everyone saw

23:17

this different version of you, and then whenever

23:19

we started working together, and I saw day-to-day

23:22

how troubled and how dark

23:24

your thoughts got, and how, yeah,

23:27

just in pain you were.

23:30

And so it was really helpful to see the

23:32

book

23:33

line up with that experience.

23:36

For me, this

23:37

was actually how I wanted to segue

23:40

into the part about feeling burnt out about

23:42

treatment, not having faith in the

23:44

institution, which is also another big

23:46

problem for people with BPD that they don't

23:48

trust their therapists. I

23:51

guess, in my opinion, how to keep

23:53

going. Everybody has their own admin that

23:55

they have to do for their own life, and

23:58

unfortunately, health and medicine. mental health,

24:00

physical health, it's a battle, but you're

24:02

not alone, you know? We're all doing it,

24:05

we're all here together.

24:07

10 steps, there's always 10 steps. If

24:10

you go into the process knowing

24:12

that and ask for support,

24:14

that's what we've learned is that anywhere

24:16

you can, ask for support.

24:18

If you know someone who needs support,

24:22

find someone for them or help them

24:24

find that person in their life who has the

24:26

space for it. You know, you just have to be able to ask.

24:29

Holding yourself accountable with another human is

24:31

the biggest lesson that I've learned

24:33

through 2020 when we were all trying to be

24:36

productive, even though our lives were going

24:38

to shit and the world was in chaos and

24:41

getting mad at yourself for not doing more.

24:44

You can ask people for help. The

24:46

hardest part is expecting them

24:49

to react with stigma or

24:51

with negativity

24:52

or these stories we tell in our

24:54

head of how they will react when I ask, oh,

24:56

I can't ask them, blah, blah, blah.

24:59

If you're friends and

25:01

anyone in your life who you're able

25:03

to maybe broach that question

25:05

to, try not

25:08

to not do it out of fear. That's it. I

25:10

mean, I will say, like, I guess I do wanna

25:12

say, like, there's been times, I mean, I remember

25:15

I had like kind of a mini breakdown one time

25:17

because there was like, I was doing a guided meditation

25:19

and the guided meditation was like, think

25:22

about all the people who love you. And I was like, I can't think

25:24

of anyone.

25:25

That like, there's no person, there's not

25:27

a single person. Like sometimes you can't

25:29

help but feel alone.

25:31

And I just wanna like raise

25:33

that. Like sometimes you do feel like there's not a single

25:35

person left in the world,

25:37

you know, who would

25:39

be willing to extend more towards

25:41

you. Because I think a big thing about this type of thing,

25:44

like at least me, it was just like, I feel like I've exhausted

25:47

everyone that I trust. And

25:51

what becomes overwhelming for someone when you

25:53

ask for help is that they don't know exactly what that

25:55

looks like. They don't know how much of a commitment they're

25:57

making. And so, something

25:59

to make it easier.

25:59

to ask for help is to ask

26:02

for something specific saying like,

26:04

can we meet once a week

26:07

at this time for half an hour

26:09

and we meet in this coffee shop, hold my hand

26:11

while we just sit and think about what the next

26:13

step is. And that's

26:15

something that somebody can really easily commit

26:18

to instead of being on call. Being

26:20

on call constantly is something that can

26:22

really burn the person who's supporting you out

26:25

and then asking for consistency, making

26:27

sure that they continuously show up so that you can trust

26:29

it. Because I think whenever you struggle to

26:32

put yourself as a priority, it's

26:34

like an ongoing thing where you have to have a lot of

26:36

self-compassion where it's like, you just keep

26:38

on trying different things until something shifts.

26:41

Like self-acceptance, like radical acceptance

26:43

is something that they talk about a lot in

26:46

dialectical behavioral therapy and like take breaks

26:48

and radically accept that you're not ready to do

26:50

the work of healing right now.

26:52

Watch with serenity through the winters of

26:54

your grief,

26:55

you know, and think about your grief and your anguish

26:58

as a winter that's coming over the land

27:01

and it's snowing and maybe it's violently snowing,

27:03

maybe it's ice rain and it's awful and disgusting

27:06

and cold and dangerous. Figure

27:09

out a place that you can be

27:12

where you can just

27:16

watch it like a storm.

27:26

Well, I think that's all the time we have for our debrief

27:28

episode. We really appreciate all the people

27:31

who reached out. The response has been

27:33

really beautiful and we just really appreciate

27:35

everyone who told us they had

27:37

a similar feeling, a similar experience,

27:40

a similar dynamic

27:42

with their sisters. We love hearing

27:44

from you. So please don't

27:46

hesitate to reach out. Feel free to contact

27:49

us on Instagram at the Heart Radio or

27:51

at mermaid palace art.

27:53

You can follow Caitlin at Caitlin Prest. You

27:55

can follow me at Natalie Presti. And

27:58

we just want to say a huge thank you.

27:59

Thank you for being here and

28:02

for listening. Thank

28:04

you. We also

28:06

have a special announcement from our friends, Dane

28:08

and Matt. They just released a new podcast.

28:11

It's a queer podcast, eight episodes,

28:14

five years of research, one man's

28:16

life. It's called Resurrection. So

28:19

check them out on Spotify, Apple, or wherever

28:21

you get your podcasts and show them some love. Also,

28:25

we have a brand new mini series coming

28:27

out on the heart.

28:29

Dad. It's

28:32

coming out on a very special date, Sunday,

28:35

June 18th, for Father's

28:37

Day.

28:38

So keep your ears peeled and you'll hear from us

28:40

soon.

28:49

So you meet a woman online. I love it, I

28:51

just love it. But it turns out, thousands

28:53

of other people are in love with her too. Janessa

28:56

Brazile. Janessa Brazile. One

28:58

woman's image is being used by criminals

29:01

to target

29:01

innocent people looking for love online.

29:05

You win their hearts, you win their wallets. Love,

29:08

Janessa. My wild quest

29:10

to find her, the human face of

29:12

a digital con. Available now,

29:15

wherever you get your podcasts.

29:20

Radio to be on. From

29:24

PRX.