0:03

The waves in SLAIT's podcast about gender

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0:10

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0:12

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0:16

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0:32

From CBC Podcasts, Radio

0:34

Topia, and Mermaid Palace.

0:37

Welcome. To

0:39

the heart.

0:42

I'm Caitlin Press. And

0:45

this is sisters of five

0:47

episode series about the trials and tribulations

0:50

of loving someone you've known since

0:52

you were born. The

0:56

series is serialized. This

0:58

is the fourth episode. If

1:01

you haven't listened to the other three, go

1:04

back to the chapter a episode now.

1:08

The last episode ended on a bit

1:10

of a cliffhanger. Oh my

1:12

gosh. This

1:14

cute one have BPD. This

1:19

is episode four. What's

1:23

wrong aside? Does

1:32

Kaitlyn, have BPD.

1:37

Natalie will indeed confront

1:40

me about this. But

1:43

before that, we

1:45

go back in time. To

1:49

before I

1:51

hired Natalie. I'm

2:06

driving on

2:09

a highway that is way

2:13

too high above the ground.

2:19

There's a huge body of water I

2:28

can't take my foot off the gas.

2:34

My foot is stuck. This

2:40

is a recurring dream that I would have

2:44

all the time, and

2:47

the year is leading up to the moment that I hired

2:49

Natalie. I

2:53

came to believe that the dream represented

2:56

the way that I felt living

2:58

my life. It

3:04

was like a signal that my subconscious was

3:06

trying to send that there was something

3:09

reckless about the way

3:11

that I was living, drinking two bottles

3:13

of whiskey with a friend staying up until seven

3:15

in the morning and then a pitch meeting at nine.

3:18

A stranger in the parking lot of a motel

3:20

six and wearing a single dress to bed

3:22

and then to work and then to bed and then

3:25

to work and then to bed. To temporarily

3:27

homeless. An old friend happened to be out of

3:29

town for a few days. Then I moved

3:31

to a Schleabag hotel for fifty dollars

3:33

night and stayed there until, like I financially starve

3:35

myself for as long as I can make And then a flush

3:37

of money comes in and I spend it all on extravagant

3:40

things, like taxi cab apps for a five minute

3:42

walk. A night in a hotel, like myself out of my

3:44

apartment? All the

3:45

while taking on more and more early

3:47

opportunities registered to me as

3:49

being wanted by last chance. I say

3:51

yes and yes. I start accompanying

3:53

someone who doesn't even know how to keep a plant

3:55

alive is now in a position of responsibility.

3:58

Money managing people's light of this.

4:00

Instead of hiring schools with home office,

4:02

I spend about an hour and a half a day

4:04

writing emails that I'll never send people

4:07

who I feel are terrorized. I stay home

4:09

and drink alone just so won't have to answer

4:11

the question. How are you doing?

4:13

To me, None of this

4:15

is alarming. To

4:18

me, I'm living

4:20

a wild artist life

4:23

Yes. My bank account is totally empty,

4:25

but I'm living for free in a pool of

4:27

Yes. I'm going into business with the person

4:29

who's a Yeah. separate pool of nursing.

4:32

Yes. I met a guy on Todor Aspie if I like

4:34

BBC, and I said that it's not my favorite radio

4:36

station. You know, my girlfriend gave me my address

4:39

and invited him to come over Yes. I met a man

4:41

in the parking lot of a hotel six and probably

4:43

invited him into my room. My magazine.

4:45

Yes. I was stranded in Europe. Yeah.

4:47

Don't have anywhere to live right now and staying up

4:50

on the back hotels and planning how I

4:52

would initiate a conversation with my family in

4:54

which I would get their consent for me to kill myself.

4:56

Google it. The first thing that comes up on Google

4:58

is an image of a cockroach. Yes.

5:02

All of this is happening while I'm running a company

5:04

and I'm like, tumbling with absolutely no

5:06

administrative support with Netflix pilot.

5:09

The precarity of my life is

5:11

a funny joke that I tell at

5:13

bars and parties. People

5:16

in my life are trying to tell me

5:18

that what they see is not a crazy

5:20

artist's life. What they see is a dumpster fire.

5:23

can't have you in my life unless you're in therapy.

5:25

Maybe a friend is kind of taxed.

5:27

I'm worried about you. I wish you

5:29

would take better care of Can I trust

5:31

you to call the psych ward tomorrow

5:34

and check yourself in? That was my therapist

5:36

two weeks before I launched my company. I'm

5:38

worried about you trying to slowly

5:40

kill yourself too

5:41

much.

5:41

You need to take a break. Imagine what

5:44

it would be like if all you were thinking

5:46

about every single day for seven

5:48

days in a row was just

5:51

your well-being. Being

5:54

mentally okay. My therapist

5:56

again. I had learned to make a home of

5:58

chaos at a pretty young age.

6:01

It's what I was used to. It's

6:03

what I thought was normal. It

6:06

didn't feel like it was something I was choosing.

6:10

It didn't feel like I was living

6:12

my

6:13

life. Felt like

6:15

my life was living

6:17

me.

6:25

My foot is on the gas, but I am

6:27

powerless to move it. It

6:30

won't move. I

6:49

always drive the car off

6:51

of the edge of the highway. And

6:58

land in the water.

7:05

Where the car is slowly filling up

7:07

and I can't get out.

7:12

I was always in the of some

7:15

life ending drama, trapped,

7:18

building my life around a person, working

7:21

with that person, living with that person,

7:24

having that person be the center of my universe.

7:28

And then there would be a switch

7:32

or suddenly, I didn't trust them

7:34

anymore. One, she's my best

7:36

friend. She took advantage of it. She

7:38

used to -- She wanted to. -- my

7:40

people I cared about, my wound

7:42

day

7:43

dream, like here's about three.

7:45

I love her. She's a genius. She's

7:47

a

7:47

trauma demon. She's a dangerous.

7:49

She was terrified

7:50

for wounded. My piece of black hair

7:52

had about wounded and cruel.

7:54

He's like hair gosh. She's dead

7:56

to me.

7:59

In the dream just

8:02

as I'm about to draw my last breath.

8:06

I realize that

8:12

I can breathe underwater. Time

8:31

Warner. Let me see any nothing

8:33

to push.

8:36

By the time, I decided that I

8:38

was staying in Toronto and leaving my

8:40

American life behind.

8:42

Things had gotten to such a point of chaos

8:45

and depression that I had

8:47

managed to get myself on antidepressants. Have

8:50

you sleep? No.

8:53

Not

8:53

good. Well, you're

8:55

not gonna like this, but I took more than my I

8:57

was supposed to take in my Okay,

9:00

Pete. Not too much more,

9:03

but

9:04

a little Why was it due?

9:06

I don't know. I'm just I don't know. Makes

9:08

you feel like you're taking something? Yeah.

9:12

Yeah. Cool. That's what it does.

9:14

And then

9:24

There's something really scary about realizing

9:27

that you're in a repeating pattern. While

9:30

yes, Natalie was

9:32

the real life version of

9:34

the life giving breath I have

9:37

in the dream. It

9:40

felt a little bit like a horrible

9:42

end was inevitable. I

9:47

was in a race to figure out

9:49

what was wrong with me. Before

9:53

the repeating pattern completed

9:55

its cycle. I

10:00

got diagnosed

10:03

with a lot of different stuff. ADHD, depression,

10:06

anxiety disorder, alcoholism, Codependency.

10:09

Childhood trauma as it manifests in

10:11

the mind of an adult. Sexual trauma

10:13

as it manifests in the mind of an

10:15

adult. Trauma of making work about

10:18

sexual trauma as it manifests in

10:20

the mind of an adult woman. Domination

10:22

culture. A writer named Rachel Rickett

10:25

wrote that domination distances

10:27

us from our own humanity. Alcoholism, capitalism,

10:30

burnout, financial scarcity trauma,

10:32

traumatic stress disorder or my own personal

10:34

favorite. I

10:37

am just a shitty

10:39

fucking person. I

10:50

used to think that it was because I have a Gemini

10:52

moon. I mean Gemini is the

10:54

twins. I was like, yeah, that's why. It's

10:56

because I have Gemini moon. I'm I'm Leo sunshine,

10:59

Ares rising sign, you

11:00

know, it's literally the perfect of beaver

11:02

madness. Yeah.

11:05

I have an emergency therapy at noon.

11:07

Okay. Good. I

11:09

just thought I should use as much therapy as I

11:11

can get right now. Good. Right now. It's in

11:13

the pink one.

11:15

You're so happy you're working with me now. Oh,

11:18

I'm happy that you're happy. Like, I mean,

11:21

hearing her say, I'm happy that

11:23

you're happy.

11:25

Makes me nervous. On

11:28

the one hand, I

11:30

desperately

11:32

needed her. And

11:34

on the other hand, the

11:37

relationship blow up pattern

11:39

This

11:39

is him. Are you having good time?

11:41

No.

11:41

I'm I I was looking forward to coming

11:43

into work and getting those emails done that I know

11:45

I can do. I'm trying to keep it together.

11:48

While also trying to

11:52

figure out what's wrong. I'm

11:54

in, like, eighteen

11:56

different kinds of therapy. And

11:58

by eighteen different kinds of therapy, I mean

12:00

probably like five. AA

12:03

Zoom meetings. AA in person

12:05

meetings, smart recovery meeting.

12:07

Instagram knows that I'm trying to stop drinking

12:09

and it advertises British

12:12

app that helps you stop drinking

12:14

where it sends you little messages every day and

12:16

gives you journal prompt. I'm doing psychodynamic therapy.

12:19

I'm going to codependence anonymous. Natalie.

12:21

We go together. We're doing family therapy

12:23

with a family therapist. I have a company

12:26

therapist who used to run her own dance

12:28

company who is specializes in

12:30

art making and trauma. I have a family

12:32

doctor now because I live in Canada.

12:34

Oh, my sessions with her. Taking quizzes about

12:37

my different ailments and getting

12:39

on medication started popping in to

12:41

the church on the corner of my street wondering

12:43

if I go to confession and Jesus says that

12:45

I'm absolved of all my sins that somehow that

12:47

will bring about the change that I need in

12:49

my life. I try SSRIs. I

12:52

try SNRIs. I explicitly

12:54

tell my doctor not to give me a prescription

12:56

for Adderall because I'm an addict and I will

12:58

abuse the fuck out of it. I'm doing coaching

13:00

for dismantling white supremacy

13:03

in myself and the work

13:05

that I do and in the world. And

13:08

that weirdly ends up being kind of like therapy

13:10

because at the core of it, the person who's

13:12

coaching me is asking me

13:15

deep seated questions about where my

13:17

need to have power comes from,

13:19

where my need for control comes from,

13:21

where my sense of scarce city comes from.

13:23

I find a special kind of therapy

13:26

that sounds like the perfect one for

13:28

me. It's called dialectical behavioral therapy

13:30

I find out that it's about reconciling the

13:32

opposing poles of your person. And I'm like, oh my

13:34

god. That's the therapy for me. A lot

13:36

of these things are free, and a lot

13:38

of these things cost money. A good thing

13:41

that I worked myself into a complete breakdown.

13:43

Otherwise, I wouldn't be able to afford any

13:45

of this

13:45

shit. All your problems are my problems

13:47

and, like, your days, my day, and, like,

13:50

and then when I come home from work, it's like I'm just

13:52

talking about

13:52

you. You know, like, it's like but what is my you

13:54

know, it is very quick at it and very,

13:56

like, Totally

14:04

Natalie and I have been working together for

14:07

three months.

14:10

And she's having a hard time.

14:13

I know she's having a hard time. You

14:16

know, like, if this isn't working through you,

14:18

then that's okay. You know,

14:20

like, you're loud. I'm not like, if

14:22

you quit, I'm not gonna hold

14:24

that against you. When I hear this

14:26

recording, I'm giving

14:28

her an out, and this

14:30

is growth

14:32

because in the past,

14:34

I wouldn't have been able to say these things.

14:38

I

14:38

think people in the past felt like they had

14:40

to stay because they were afraid

14:43

of how I would react

14:45

if they abandoned me. I would have been

14:47

extremely upset. Well, I appreciate

14:49

you saying that that, like, if if

14:51

for some reason I, like, decided,

14:54

like, this is too much and I'm not like,

14:56

I just can't anymore or, like, I don't

14:58

know, like, to sit, like, like, I have to evaluate

15:00

what are the what are the pros and cons and why

15:02

I yeah. Like, why am I

15:04

here? Like, is it what is why? You

15:07

know? Yeah. Why? I don't know. Yeah. Like, what are

15:09

you getting out of it? How is this helping

15:11

you? And you know

15:13

that I'm working on being a different person

15:15

right now. So like

15:17

my erratic emotional state

15:19

is an is an accidental method

15:21

of control. I think it's okay for me to have

15:24

feelings. I think it's okay

15:26

for me to be upset about

15:28

something. But it's just the exact same thing as

15:30

whenever you're having sex with someone

15:32

and, you know, you say

15:34

no and then they get and then they they

15:36

shut off, you know, and you're like, oh, no.

15:38

I have now I feel like I have to do something because

15:41

you're having a bad reaction. Like,

15:43

that's that's a that's coversion. That's

15:45

a version of that's a version of coercion.

15:49

So I'm saying all the

15:51

right things with my words.

15:54

But underneath my

15:55

words, even as I'm

15:57

talking about the way that emotion

15:59

can be an accidentally coercive

16:01

force I

16:03

can hear the desperation

16:06

and panic in my

16:08

voice, my strained

16:11

rationality is

16:14

another way that I'm trying to

16:16

take control of the situation. You

16:18

know, and I'm that's why I'm

16:20

doing all this work on myself to figure out,

16:23

you know, to be well so that my

16:25

so that my feelings aren't running me.

16:28

You know? Like, you don't have to be

16:30

the training wheels for that. You have to ask yourself

16:32

if you know what you're getting

16:33

into, you know who you're working with

16:35

very well,

16:37

and you have to ask yourself, you

16:42

know, is there

16:44

hope for it to change? Or

16:46

is the change gonna come too slowly?

16:56

Is there hope for things

16:58

to change? Or

17:00

is the change happening to

17:04

slowly?

17:16

I'm trying to change the way that I

17:18

work. I'm trying

17:20

to take my foot off of the gas pedal

17:24

in my life. I thought about

17:26

checking myself into a psych ward or

17:29

doing a rehab program or Dielectrical

17:33

behavioral therapy has

17:34

inpatient. Like, you can go for a month

17:37

and I thought about all of that. I

17:39

didn't do it partially because

17:44

who has the money to do that? Partially

17:47

because if I stop working, then I

17:49

stop making

17:50

money. And partially

17:52

because I

17:55

believe that what needed to change

17:58

was the way that I lived my life, choosing

18:03

to finally listen to my therapist a

18:05

year and a half later and make

18:07

my top priority being

18:11

okay. Instead

18:14

of making three shows in a year, I'd side,

18:16

I'm only gonna make one. Instead

18:19

of doing fourteen hour days

18:21

and then partying all night, I

18:25

change my schedule. Schedule

18:29

is from one to seven PM.

18:32

Six hour work day. The

18:34

first four hours

18:36

of every day is just me

18:39

trying get out of bed,

18:43

feed myself, clothe myself,

18:46

shower myself, listen

18:49

to myself, I

18:52

have this whole elaborate system

18:55

for how to make myself take a shower

18:57

where I turn on the water as hot as it could

18:59

go and leave it on for ten minutes

19:01

so that the whole room fills up with steam so

19:03

that the shock of being dry and then suddenly

19:05

being wet is not too intense

19:07

for me and I can just go into

19:10

the room and I'm like slightly damp and then

19:12

I can and everything is all already warm

19:14

and so it's a slower transition than

19:16

I shower and feel guilty about what I'm doing

19:18

to the environment the entire time. I create all

19:20

these systems to trick myself into doing

19:22

the things that are, you know, that

19:24

everybody else can do just regularly. They

19:26

just some people, they just wake up and they get out

19:28

of bed. It's not a big deal. Me,

19:31

I have several strategies for trying to get

19:33

myself out of bed. If

19:35

I just put one leg out

19:37

of the bed so that my foot is

19:40

touching the floor. I let

19:42

my foot stay on the floor

19:44

for about fifteen minutes, and

19:46

then I wiggle my other foot so

19:49

that my other foot is on the floor.

19:51

And then I let that foot stay there

19:53

for about fifteen minutes. And then

19:56

I wiggle you know, my butt

19:58

is now on the floor. And the other half

20:00

of me is kind of

20:02

flopped on the bed. And I'm half in

20:04

the bed, half half out of the bed.

20:07

And then I flop

20:09

off of the bed, I feel

20:11

the coolness of the floor on my cheek,

20:14

and then I roll over. And then

20:16

I roll over again. And then it becomes

20:19

absurd and I laugh and I'm able to

20:21

get up. Natalie

20:24

and I do the mental health routine

20:26

together. She comes to

20:28

my house at ten AM. We

20:30

do morning pages. Then

20:33

we meditate. We

20:40

size. Here we go. The Shawnee.

20:50

Push push. I want you to start to find

20:52

your own. Sometimes after that, we go

20:54

for breakfast at the dinner on the corner,

20:58

and then we start working at one.

21:01

I think that I'm doing so well.

21:03

I can't even believe how well I'm

21:05

doing compared to the way that I was living

21:08

before. My apartment is relatively

21:10

clean. I'm wearing a different outfit every single

21:12

day. I have completely annihilated my

21:15

workaholism. I believe that I'm

21:17

nailing it. And then Natalie

21:20

goes on

21:20

vacation. And

21:22

Like, yeah. Well, like, I was trying to identify

21:24

the problem with why I'm feeling like my

21:27

work is is She's

21:28

not doing okay.

21:29

I struggle still. Like, it's like

21:32

we are getting better. It's

21:34

still too much. I

21:37

don't know. Like I'm doing

21:39

everything I can humanly possibly do, but

21:42

I'm still to

21:47

broken, to be around. Whenever

22:00

you're alone, do you ever feel like

22:02

Like, I don't exist? Really?

22:04

Like, you feel like that? Definitely.

22:07

Absolutely. Wow. That's

22:09

actually, like, exactly how you said it.

22:12

I remember was so shocked. Like,

22:15

you just finished my sentence,

22:17

like, that quickly. Exactly

22:20

like that. We searched and

22:22

searched and we cannot find the recording of

22:24

this conversation,

22:26

so we're recreating

22:28

it to the best of our memory. Well,

22:33

I I don't know how to bring this up. Like,

22:35

is it okay if I read

22:37

you some of this book?

22:38

Like, Well, just dad gave it to me and

22:40

it's called stop walking on egg shells.

22:42

So we thought Oh, that's nice. Maybe this will help

22:45

you with Caitlyn. You know? I'm like, I

22:47

know. I know. I mean, I didn't even wanna tell

22:49

you that Doug gave it to me, to be honest. But

22:52

basically, it said something

22:54

in the book also, like, you remember

22:55

that? Walk that we took where you said that everything

22:57

was attacking you and that you felt like you had no

22:59

skin.

23:00

Yeah.

23:01

And, like, when I read the book,

23:03

there's literally a line that says, like,

23:07

born without, like, one layer

23:09

of skin missing. Oh, wow. Because yeah.

23:11

I mean, I don't I don't know how to tell you this,

23:14

but

23:16

I don't know if I yeah. It's

23:19

it's called stop walking on egg shells.

23:22

How to take your life back when someone you

23:25

love has borderline personality

23:27

disorder. Like,

23:32

that's where I got that question

23:34

not existing. Like, that's literally exactly

23:36

what it says in the book. Oh my god.

23:39

Yeah.

23:39

And I didn't I didn't know how to tell you later.

23:42

Do you want like, I think we should look at it

23:44

together maybe. Yeah. I'm down.

23:49

Borderline. Wow.

23:52

I go to my DVT therapist. And

23:56

she gently informs me that DBT

23:58

was actually invented.

24:02

To treat borderline personality disorder.

24:04

And then immediately when I find that out,

24:06

I'm like, oh my god. I gotta know. Do

24:09

I have it? And so

24:11

the therapist does the assessment

24:13

with me. She takes it to her supervisors,

24:16

they listen to it, they all weigh in,

24:18

and then it's the session where we're

24:20

talking about the results.

24:23

don't know if you quite had a hesitations about

24:26

having a diagnosis. So

24:28

I'm just wondering,

24:29

yeah, where are you at? I

24:31

guess,

24:33

like, I guess I've been flip flopping about

24:36

how I feel about whether or not, like,

24:38

having having it be a yes or a

24:39

no. Like, I guess, like,

24:41

I'm nervous of what you're gonna say.

24:44

Mhmm. That makes sense. Yeah.

24:47

Of course. You're nervous about it.

24:49

On the one hand, there's a part of me that

24:51

does want to have a label because it would

24:54

explain. A

24:57

lot of things, like, it would make me feel

24:59

like, I think lot of the struggle that I've been

25:01

having is, like, just feeling like

25:05

that that yeah. That I have that, like, my

25:07

deficiencies as a person and, like,

25:10

the reason my people are always mad

25:12

at me is, like, because

25:15

of me. Like, because I failed

25:17

on some level to,

25:18

like,

25:20

fix myself or something. And, like,

25:23

Like, so there's a part of me that feels like it

25:25

would be validating, but then on the other

25:27

side of it, I feel worried that, like,

25:31

there's a part of me that, like, like,

25:33

it wants to use mental health problems

25:35

as an excuse or something for

25:41

you know, to say it's not my it isn't my fault.

25:44

You know? Yeah. Yeah.

25:47

If you don't mind, I just wanna interject there.

25:49

I mean, You're

25:51

a survivor of childhood trauma, Caitlin.

25:56

Right? Like, I'm asexual trauma.

25:59

And it

26:03

gets not your fault. Emotion

26:06

dysregulation arises through

26:10

a combination of both biology,

26:13

sensitivity, emotional

26:16

stimuli, add an and validating environment

26:19

that punishes emotions?

26:21

Well, so maybe I think what might help is,

26:23

like, if you tell me kind of, like, out

26:26

of the symptoms that there are, like,

26:28

which ones do I have? Like, which

26:30

which boxes am I checking? Yeah.

26:35

I'm happy to kind of walk you through. I'm just

26:37

pulling up the assessment notes.

26:43

Yeah. I'm, like, I'm not

26:45

afraid to give you a diagnosis to

26:48

be clear. I just

26:50

want you to feel like you have all the information

26:53

to make a choice if you want diagnosis or

26:55

do you want to hear or do you want me soon?

26:57

Yeah. Sure. Yeah.

27:00

So you meet most of the criteria

27:02

for borderline personality disorder,

27:05

which is what that walking on to egg shells book

27:07

is all about. All it

27:09

means is that at its core,

27:12

folks with BPD, tend to have

27:14

big labeled emotions. They

27:16

come on quickly. They hit like a ton of

27:18

bricks. They're long lasting, and

27:21

they're hard to regulate. Thankfully.

27:25

So there's another piece about this too that I always

27:27

like to tell people. So a better name for

27:29

it is a motion dysregulation disorder. Something

27:33

like ninety percent of people

27:35

with this disorder have, childhood

27:37

trauma. Okay. So

27:39

much so. That some

27:41

theorists actually think borderline is

27:43

an alternative manifestation of

27:46

PTSD. Oh, interesting. The

27:49

guy who invented it back in the day was

27:52

like, it's kind of on the border

27:54

between a mood disorder, like

27:56

the pressure and anxiety, and,

28:02

like, paranoia. Right? So some

28:04

paranoia thinking. Right?

28:12

After the diagnosis phone call, I'm

28:14

sitting at the big table in my apartment

28:17

that Natalie and I work at. The

28:23

first thing I do is type out a

28:25

text message to her on my

28:27

computer. Three

28:30

words. I

28:33

have it. She

28:37

takes back right away, a heart,

28:40

She says, I think this is a

28:42

good thing, Caitlyn. Another

28:44

heart can't wait to talk it

28:46

out with you. Another heart.

28:49

I love you. I'm

28:51

here getting fizzy water from the grocery store for

28:53

you. A

28:55

heart.

29:08

I'm rubbing I I got something really greener

29:10

because I didn't want to cross the street.

29:12

Sorry if I went to the one.

29:14

You can hear the sound of her rubbing

29:16

my back. How

29:19

do you feel?

29:25

There's a good initially something out of

29:27

me. Well, there's an explanation to

29:30

provide my readers. I

29:32

don't know if that's the thing I feel is a great

29:35

step towards understanding

29:38

ourselves in our relationship

29:39

and, you know, and at least not I don't

29:42

know. It's for what I've read in

29:44

the book. It's, like, it's not

29:46

well,

29:46

it's not a

29:46

good diagnosis that you're, like,

29:49

Oh, it means that it

29:52

means

29:52

that there's therapy that is a

29:54

treatment that, like, can help you, like,

29:56

just acknowledge behaviors, you know, or

29:58

see things like, more aware,

30:00

like, then can you be aware of something or change

30:02

it or or act differently even unless

30:05

you understand it for the

30:06

student. I'll, like, totally. Understanding

30:09

behaviors. There's a lot

30:11

of controversy around a

30:14

borderline diagnosis. When

30:16

I started telling close friends, they were like,

30:18

is that even a thing? I had

30:20

judgments about it. I had

30:22

read that it was a new

30:25

iteration of a hysteria diagnosis

30:27

that it was just pathologizing, the

30:30

pain of women, But

30:32

the more I learned and read about the disorder,

30:36

the more it felt like it was describing

30:38

every single way that my life was difficult.

30:42

A combination of emotional

30:44

dysregulation and

30:47

paranoia. Never

30:49

really thought of myself as a paranoid person.

30:53

I'm a free spirit. But

30:56

then, I started thinking back I

30:58

trust no one and only Natalie can do it because

31:00

I trust no one. I don't really trust them

31:02

to, like, know how to deal with it. Like, I just

31:04

Being paranoid that people are trying hurt

31:06

you or will inevitably betray

31:08

you. She took advantage of me. She detraced

31:10

me. She tacked her homonyms. She's

31:12

terrorized. The paranoid thinking even happened in

31:14

a small way. At JEMCON when

31:17

Natalie's costume was from a different

31:19

episode than the one we had planned. Did

31:22

she do this on

31:24

purpose. Like This is an example

31:27

of the paranoia. All

31:30

of the life ending dramas the

31:33

intense interpersonal relationships that

31:36

I was in my repeating pattern

31:39

with they all got

31:41

broken apart by paranoia. I

31:45

would idealize a

31:48

person put them on a pedestal,

31:51

believe that they were my savior, and

31:54

then something would happen. Something

31:58

small or something big. And

32:00

suddenly, I would start to believe

32:03

that they were trying to hurt me. They

32:05

were gonna do something bad

32:07

to me, and I would flip flop between

32:10

these two poles. You might

32:12

be thinking, KP,

32:14

I thought that this was supposed

32:16

to be a series about

32:19

sisters. I

32:21

have not heard about Natalie in

32:23

quite some time It's

32:26

kind of a sad window into

32:30

what this disorder feels like

32:32

the shit that you're dealing with feels so

32:34

fucking overwhelming. It

32:37

makes you a shitty friend

32:39

Because all you can think about is the

32:42

overwhelming things, is

32:44

the overwhelming feelings that you're having.

32:47

The out of control, chaotic, roller

32:50

coaster car on a

32:52

crazy highway over a body

32:54

of water with your foot glued

32:56

to the gas that you're on. When

32:58

you're on that ride and you don't know how

33:00

to get off, all you can

33:02

be to people is

33:05

a cry for help. Sometimes

33:09

that cry for help doesn't

33:11

look like someone who is

33:13

suffering. What it looks

33:15

like is somebody who is

33:18

bristling and reactive,

33:22

narcissistic, and controlling.

33:27

Emotional disregulation. The

33:34

best way that I can think of describe

33:36

it things

33:42

that register for Neurotypical

33:46

people as

33:49

a tool on an emotional scale.

33:52

Register for a borderline

33:55

person as an eight.

33:58

Every feeling that you're feeling feels like

34:00

a really big deal. Even

34:03

if it's a happy feeling. When you're in a happy

34:05

feeling, you're like, I'm

34:08

in euphoric, happiness like

34:10

b b in my euphoric, happy happiness with

34:12

me, everything is kind of registering

34:15

on an emergency level of

34:17

big. When

34:21

I think about the way that

34:23

I was struggling, I

34:26

think about

34:28

something that I learned in lifeguard school.

34:31

In

34:32

LifeGuard School, they teach you never to try

34:34

to save a drowned victim without

34:36

a floatation device. No

34:38

matter how good of a swimmer you are, if you

34:41

swim out to the drown victim, they

34:43

may well drown you because

34:45

they're panicking, and they'll

34:47

push you under to get air.

34:50

They're in emergency mode. They're not really

34:52

thinking about the fact that they

34:54

might drown you to get air. They're

34:56

just in adrenaline survival mode.

34:59

And so they're grabbing whatever is

35:01

close to them. And trying

35:03

to propel themselves towards

35:06

the surface. I

35:10

think that Natalie was

35:13

the lifeguard who

35:15

swam out to the drown victim without

35:17

a flotation device. And

35:19

I was the drowned victim in

35:22

emergency mode trying

35:24

to get air. A

35:35

therapist once said to me, the

35:38

boundaries weren't just

35:40

about protecting my insides

35:42

from the outside world. That

35:46

they were also about protecting

35:49

the outside world from my inside

35:51

world.

35:57

Yeah. What is it? My therapist

36:00

told me if

36:02

you give me a handout about

36:03

boundaries, and I was wondering maybe we should just go through

36:05

it together and and, like, it just asks

36:08

a question. Because

36:10

I guess I just feel like we're throwing around the word boundaries

36:12

a lot. Yeah. But what does that actually

36:15

mean in

36:15

practice? You know?

36:16

Like I said, like because you're officers you do need

36:19

four. Is that okay? More We

36:21

don't

36:21

even know. But we don't even know this at all. Yeah.

36:24

Yeah. That's like horror of what

36:26

kind of action And

36:29

that's what we're gonna try to

36:31

do in the next episode. Figure

36:34

out what even is

36:37

a boundary. In

36:57

the

39:04

This was episode four of

39:07

sisters. What's wrong aside?

39:09

You can check us out online to find helpful

39:12

resources for topics related to borderline

39:14

personality disorder. Dialectical

39:16

behavior therapy, and more

39:18

at the heart radio dot org forward

39:21

slash sisters. If

39:24

you want to learn more about BPD, a

39:26

few links that Natalie and Caitlin found helpful

39:29

include a YouTube video

39:31

called an introduction to BPD with

39:33

doctor tranquil, a podcast

39:36

by Rochelle Estefan called

39:39

articulating BPD and me.

39:41

That really helped access an inside

39:44

perspective of someone's lived experience

39:46

of this disorder. I want

39:48

to take this opportunity to invite listeners

39:50

to message us. Create

39:52

a voice memo with any questions or comments

39:55

you might have about the series. Anything

39:57

you want us to address in our final episode

40:00

the deep brief episode, where we talk

40:02

about everything that this series brought

40:04

up. You can email us with the subject

40:06

line questions at the hear

40:08

at mermaid Palace dot org, with

40:11

your questions about mental health, PPD,

40:14

or other things from the series that you'd like to

40:16

hear us talk more

40:17

about. So that's the heart

40:19

at mermaidpalace dot org.

40:24

To stay in touch, Follow

40:26

the heart at the heart radio. You

40:28

can follow mermaid Palace at mermaid Palace

40:30

r on Instagram for behind the

40:32

scenes photos of sister art life.

40:35

At mermaid palace. You

40:37

can follow the host and creator

40:39

of this show and others. Caitlin

40:41

pressed at Caitlin pressed.

40:44

Follows singer and cosplay queen.

40:47

Natalie pressed at Natalie pressedie,

40:50

and you can follow me. Debbie

40:53

Sherinde, the editor of this

40:55

series at soft volumes.

40:58

This episode was written and directed

41:01

by k p. She

41:03

also did the music and sound design. It

41:06

was edited by me, Deborah

41:08

Sherinde, Natalie Press,

41:11

associate produced this episode. You

41:14

are hearing her sing. Right

41:16

now. The song. Rainbows.

41:20

And our researching producer is Alexandra

41:23

Pinnel. This series

41:25

would not have been possible without the

41:27

support of our editorial advisors

41:30

who lend us that time and that is,

41:33

Aliyah Babani, Meghan

41:35

Castle, Mitchell Acayama,

41:38

Sarah Rose, Fabiola

41:40

Calletti, Harry Nason,

41:43

and Jennifer Casted De Roche, who

41:45

is the painter and artist that illustrated

41:47

the original heart in the heart logo.

41:50

She's also an incredibly talented tattoo

41:52

artist, so get a tattoo from JCJ.

41:55

At JCJ tattoos on Instagram.

41:58

Jennifer is also the person who

42:00

after listening to episode two and

42:02

three, pleaded with Katelyn

42:04

and Nathalie to consider the concept boundaries.

42:08

Pavy Tamu Brian is the coaching

42:10

for liberation consultant Kiki mentioned

42:12

in this episode. They co run an

42:14

organization called Freedom Versus, which

42:16

you can check out at freedom Versus dot

42:18

org. Do Better is the book by

42:21

Rachel Rickets, their KP references. And

42:23

highly recommends. Co dependent synonymous

42:26

is twelve step program like AA,

42:28

but anyone can join at any time. Thanks

42:32

to our friends at CBC, Roche

42:34

Niella, Sarah Clayton, Damon

42:37

Fellas, Tina Varma, RF

42:40

Narani, CECL Fernandez,

42:43

and Tanya Springer. Thanks

42:45

also to memory palaces support team.

42:48

Allison Light, Blake

42:50

Day, and Pavy Tommy

42:52

Bryant. This special season

42:54

of the Hall, is a co production of

42:56

CBC Podcasts and Mermaid

42:59

Palace. The heart

43:01

is a proud member of radiotopia.

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