0:03

The waves in SLAIT's podcast about gender

0:05

and feminism. Every Thursday,

0:08

two hosts dive into a topic they

0:10

just can't stop thinking about.

0:12

From the hidden cost of breast implants

0:14

to the way we talk about cancer culture, And

0:16

even Jane Austin and erotic thrillers,

0:19

if you're thinking about it, we're talking

0:21

about it, and trying to figure out what

0:23

gender has to do with it. Listen

0:26

to the waves wherever you get your podcasts.

0:32

From CBC Podcasts, radiotopia

0:35

and mermaid palace.

0:38

Welcome to the

0:40

heart. I'm

0:43

Caitlyn Preston, and

0:46

this is sisters, a

0:48

five episode love story that follows

0:51

my Jeremy. Look

0:54

out for trigger warnings in the show

0:56

description. If you haven't listened

0:58

to the first two episodes, go back

1:00

to the chapter one episode right now.

1:03

I'm about to do a bunch of spoilers about

1:05

what happened in the last episode. In

1:08

the last episode, I realized that

1:10

Natalie was my

1:13

soul mate. And after

1:15

an entire childhood of always doing what

1:17

I wanna do, I went into

1:19

her world and got cosplayed up

1:21

at the gem in the holograms convention, gemcon.

1:26

And then I felt like a wallflower and

1:29

I couldn't hold it in. Will

1:33

we break out of the dynamic we

1:36

had as kids in this

1:38

episode? This

1:41

is episode three. Workisode.

1:53

I'm afraid. I'm afraid

1:55

of my sister. Let

1:58

me know how to walk away.

2:04

My sister, My

2:07

sister has become a

2:11

name in radio. If

2:16

you Google came impressed, all

2:18

the images are pictures of her.

2:22

She's traveling world. She is an

2:24

auto documentarian producer, creative

2:26

director, and host of radiotopia's The

2:28

Heart.

2:29

She gets

2:29

flown conferences, visits or friends

2:31

in Italy. To throw the agenda again at

2:33

radio days Europe, and Kaitlyn Press has been

2:35

talking about the importance of storytelling

2:38

in

2:38

podcast. My sister. Who

2:40

used to get up every morning at five

2:42

AM to play piano is channeling

2:44

that overachieving perfectionist energy.

2:47

And her work.

2:48

We spoke with two women who have written and

2:50

thought a lot about these gray areas. Caitlyn

2:52

Preston is the host of the heart of podcast

2:55

on radiotopia that explores being

2:57

a voice for women. And it's changing

2:59

people's lives. It's talking about important

3:02

things that are uncomfortable to talk about

3:04

but we need to talk about them. It's beautifully

3:06

done. It gives us space to

3:08

think about what is happening and for us

3:10

to perhaps for a very short

3:12

time, you know, be her shoes,

3:14

artistic, beautiful storytelling.

3:17

It's also cinematic. There's a dream

3:19

like quality to this piece. I'm

3:20

so proud of her. She's

3:24

just obsessed. When she's

3:26

not working, she's working.

3:28

I'm hidden away in a staircase right

3:30

now.

3:32

Christmas dinner is about to start. Here's

3:35

a tree. I'm

3:36

at my end, uncle's house. How

3:38

do you think we have all the tape to make this show?

3:41

Feel like crying because I haven't

3:43

actually spent time with

3:46

myself

3:47

in probably over three weeks.

3:51

I'm starting to feel.

3:53

Start to feel it. Okay.

3:55

I got it. She's

3:56

been recording every family dinner since her

3:58

early twenties.

4:00

Well, I just missed the best part.

4:02

Very sure.

4:03

Well, we were truly mad at each other.

4:06

Crazy. So do I sit in your place or what

4:09

else you want? Which is where? Kayla,

4:10

where do you

4:11

want to sit? Kayla, where do you want to sit?

4:14

It

4:14

doesn't make sense that that would be where she's looking.

4:16

Okay. They

4:18

can get such a contrived fight now.

4:20

Just as the mics on goal.

4:22

Telling stories is how she brings magic

4:24

into the world.

4:26

Very good. And it was so incredible

4:30

watching her ideas, get her

4:32

places. And

4:35

then there's me. I've

4:40

been playing animal crossing for about

4:43

eight hours a day for the past two months.

4:46

It's been years since I went to

4:48

jazz school and I'm not really doing anything with my

4:50

music. It's

4:52

May twenty twenty and the receptionist

4:54

job that's been paying me minimum wage for

4:56

the past five years. Thank you for calling

4:58

First Canadian Place. How may I direct No

5:00

one needs a receptionist when there's no one

5:02

to receive. I'm

5:05

living on government assistance. But

5:08

my virtual island inside my video

5:10

game is beautiful.

5:14

I am expertly cultivating

5:16

my garden to acquire the

5:19

coveted blue rules. I

5:22

was teetering in typical

5:25

pandemic depression. Caitlin

5:28

got stuck on the Canadian side of the border

5:30

and was running her new company from Toronto over

5:33

Zoom. She said she needed help

5:35

with admin. She asked

5:37

me if I wanted a job. She

5:39

said she needed someone she could trust. I

5:43

was nervous,

5:45

but I was also excited.

5:49

I was excited to be a part of all the beautiful

5:51

things she was creating. Burmeade

5:53

Palace,

5:56

a company of artists making

5:59

audio centric Workisode

6:02

plan was for it to be

6:04

a three month admin contract, helping

6:07

out with emails and scheduling and

6:10

organizing files. But

6:13

I knew in my heart that what I

6:15

really hope to do was

6:18

make art together. There

6:20

were a variety

6:22

of different futures that I was worried about

6:24

having happened with Natalie if we decided

6:27

to make art together. The

6:29

future where the

6:31

world finally realizes and

6:33

knows in public for all to see

6:36

that she

6:36

is, in fact, the

6:39

talented one. Oh

6:40

my god. Natalie. Natalie pressed.

6:43

I'm such a fan. Oh my god. I

6:45

just love that series that you made.

6:47

I know. It was my first one actually.

6:50

Oh my god. You're such a

6:52

genius. I can't even believe it.

6:54

Her very first attempt at making

6:56

radio is just as good as my

6:58

fourteen years cultivating my craft attempt

7:00

at making

7:01

radio. I mean,

7:02

like, you just did that all on your own. Yeah.

7:04

It just came, it just flowed. I The

7:06

thing happens where the audience's

7:09

favorite character is the one that they believe

7:11

made the whole entire

7:12

thing. She ends up getting rich

7:14

off the thing that we made together and we

7:16

end up in court. Caitlin pressed,

7:18

do you solemnly swear to tell the whole

7:20

truth and nothing but the truth So help

7:23

you

7:23

god. My truth or her truth. I

7:25

did this project a hundred percent by myself.

7:27

I taught her everything that she knows. Excuse me.

7:29

I'd like to state for the record that she did

7:31

not teach me everything that I know.

7:32

Yes. I did. No. You didn't? Yes. I

7:35

did. No. You did. I totally did.

7:37

Definitely. Order in the court.

7:39

No sister fights in the

7:40

courtroom, please. She wins

7:43

the court battle and bank rolls my

7:45

life for her fame and her fortune.

7:47

I take the money, but I never get

7:49

over my resentment. I sent you the e

7:51

transfer for your mortgage payment. Are

7:54

you coming to my keynote speech tonight?

7:57

No. I will not be attending.

8:00

Okay. Well, you know, you're always invited.

8:02

See you next Christmas. The

8:04

future where we decided to make music

8:07

together. We're having our first show.

8:10

The audience seems to really

8:12

like her. And

8:20

she just kind of stands in

8:22

front of me a little bit. And

8:25

I can't stop myself from actually pushing.

8:32

And then we get in a full on family

8:34

style bitch fight in

8:36

front of the entire audience.

8:53

Even though I was excited about working with Caitlyn,

8:56

I had my own fears as well. I

8:58

enter her vortex of workaholic

9:00

mania. I think I'm gonna

9:02

head home. It's like,

9:03

I just I just thought I No. We have

9:05

to I mean, we're we're not even close to being finished.

9:07

We have to do three more drafts of this. I don't think we're gonna

9:10

get out of here before three

9:11

AM. On my eighteenth draft of

9:13

a single social media post,

9:17

she looks at it in size.

9:19

I

9:19

think you're at the limit of your ability, so

9:22

great effort and and I'll take

9:24

it from here. Do you want me to stay

9:25

and try

9:26

No. No. No. No. Just you go home and play

9:28

your animal game or whatever you like

9:30

to do. My Life is one big Dropbox

9:32

folder now. And none of those Dropbox's

9:35

have images of Jim

9:36

Conkoss, please. It's all her

9:39

audio files. Natalie.

9:45

Where's my son, Pellegrino?

9:47

The future where I'm her lucky.

9:50

She bosses me around like when we were kids.

9:52

The garbage is full. It's priming.

9:54

She takes advantage of the fact that I'm her employee

9:56

and gets me to do all the most disgusting, horrible

9:58

tasks she can think of.

10:00

Here's my laundry. It's all mixed up

10:02

clean and dirty together. So if you could just smell

10:04

each item.

10:05

Okay. Like

10:07

when she used to stick her dirty oximod phase

10:09

and sticker finger upper nose just to wipe some

10:11

boggers on me. The

10:13

future where we fight.

10:16

We fight constantly. We have to do it like this

10:18

now. No. Yes. No.

10:20

We can't see eye to eye ever. Why?

10:22

At every corner is another frustration, another

10:24

conflict. Another upset.

10:27

Seriously. Yes. I'm serious. Why?

10:29

Why? How can you?

10:30

Working together is the beginning of then.

10:32

You started

10:33

it. No. That's what you make. That's what mom and dad

10:35

say. That's right. They're right. That's what A fight

10:37

that brings all the years of care

10:39

and tolerance and love and learning.

10:42

To a grand finale. You're

10:43

evil. You're disgusting. You're mean.

10:46

You're a horrible person. I wish you

10:48

were dead, and it sticks.

10:50

Are you coming on for Christmas? Thank you.

10:53

Is she coming? Yes. Her conscience is coming.

10:55

I won't even go I

10:56

won't even be in the same place as her until I receive

10:58

my apology.

10:59

Her sisterhood is strained.

11:02

With the accounting principles unless you apologize.

11:05

So just do it.

11:08

I don't

11:08

care if she doesn't come for Christmas.

11:12

I will not be coming until I receive

11:14

my apology. Away from my apology

11:17

until one day in her sixties.

11:21

She dies. This is a reading

11:24

of the final will and testament

11:26

of Caitlyn Press to her

11:28

sister, Natalie Press. Let

11:30

me see. Strange.

11:34

It just says word. What?

11:37

Oh, there's a clarification. The last

11:39

one. Of

11:42

course.

11:44

We put our fears aside. We

11:47

hope for the best.

11:51

It's a summer day. I

11:53

can hear the lawn mower down the street.

11:58

Terrain burger. Can you see

12:00

any milk in the fridge? Ugh.

12:04

I arrive with coffee. Light

12:06

is shining through the window onto

12:08

her massive curls, tangled

12:11

up in a stained white duvet

12:13

without a cover.

12:15

A glass of water by the bed. At

12:18

least she's hydrating. That's okay. Oh.

12:21

It's a express those, like I said.

12:24

Looks like she had a rough night.

12:28

Day poo poo. First

12:33

day of working. Yeah.

12:37

I brought the laptop. Oh, this

12:40

is a scenario for this plan.

12:44

Have you sleep? No.

12:47

Not good. Well,

12:49

you're not gonna like this, but I took more than

12:51

my was supposed to take up my empty

12:53

door. Okay, Pete.

12:55

Not

12:55

too much more, but

12:58

a little why was it too? Oh,

13:00

no. Just I don't know. It makes you feel

13:02

your face.

13:12

Okay. So that's good. So that so now I've

13:14

communicated that. And we'll make

13:16

sure to check-in regularly about what the

13:18

tasks are, what's the new goals, even

13:20

with the I mean, I really don't wanna do this

13:23

today -- Yeah. -- at

13:24

all. Okay? Mhmm. At all. Okay?

13:26

It's really, really good. We're

13:28

good. I've been using it. I can I can hear using

13:31

it to a musical effect?

13:33

And then can you do that that same one but

13:35

as clear as possible? Because

13:44

I again, I have two days of note appointments

13:46

-- Mhmm. -- and I need to

13:48

use them -- Yeah. -- for my art.

13:50

Yeah. have too. Mhmm. And

13:54

so that's the that's the goal. Mhmm.

13:57

The No. I was I'm not complaining. I was

13:59

more thinking, like, I have

14:01

to be careful not to micromanage because that

14:03

doesn't help. That doesn't make someone feel good.

14:06

It doesn't make it doesn't make me feel like they're doing

14:08

a good

14:08

job. Yeah. Because no one can do it exactly

14:10

way I would do it.

14:11

Yeah. Except for me. Yeah.

14:12

This is why I did that one.

14:15

Good admission user schedule. Yeah.

14:20

Can you check the

14:23

the Facebook messages? Or

14:27

what? Yeah. Jack just oh,

14:29

yeah. You said me? Because

14:31

you're not just my boss. You're, like,

14:33

my sister. I wanna, like, take care

14:35

of the the things that you've taken care of that

14:37

are not the most glamorous things or even, like, you

14:39

know, like, yeah, like the washing the dishes or just, like,

14:41

keeping the workspace a nice

14:43

workspace or don't know, like, yeah. Like, about

14:45

that. Bye. We're having

14:47

fun. And don't don't you find I mean, do you feel like

14:50

you're learning stuff and, like, using your skills

14:52

as well? Definitely. I

14:55

love doing emails. I don't know. Like, I I was

14:57

looking forward to checking my inbox. There wasn't

14:59

enough emails. Oh my god. Now Okay.

15:01

I mean, well, that's that's what I did for five

15:03

years with lithium box, get three d box,

15:06

check check off this thing, check off this thing, you

15:08

know, it feels good. It's like we do have

15:10

to figure out how I can take ownership

15:12

over the voice of Marie Pals because, like,

15:15

if I can't just have to feel like

15:17

we do all the time and feel like I wanted

15:19

to feel like you know, like, want to feel.

15:24

You're so happy you're working with me now.

15:26

No. I'm happy that you're happy.

15:28

Like, I mean,

15:30

Yeah. Is this it? Are you having a good

15:32

time? No. I'm I I was looking forward

15:34

to coming to work and getting those emails done

15:36

that I know can do. I just

15:38

We take it a day at a time. And

15:40

shortly after we start working together, the

15:43

next story becomes

15:47

our story. The

15:49

story we are living. Maybe

15:52

we just need to plan a time to talk about

15:54

credit. Mhmm. You know, and,

15:56

like,

15:58

that's the thing that I'm the most afraid of.

16:00

Yeah. Because it's true. I'm kind of

16:02

like a player or, like, character

16:04

in your story. Like, that's been part

16:06

of the problem, I guess. Is it feeling like I'm

16:09

like a tool for your next story?

16:11

Right. How

16:14

do we fix that? Yeah. Which is, like

16:17

like, it's, like, like, I I guess that's the thing,

16:19

like, naming it or acknowledging it or,

16:21

like, giving well,

16:28

and that's the thing I've kind of been feeling a little,

16:30

like, confused

16:32

because I'm not sure where my role is and that, like,

16:34

if you just tell me I am the whatever

16:38

in the story I know. It's

16:40

confusing. And this is what Well, because it's your

16:42

yeah. Like, I'm just still defining myself

16:44

as an artist. So, like, it's it's

16:46

all the stuff we were talking about in the collab,

16:48

like, Well, I guess

16:50

just redefining myself as

16:52

a person who stands up for her own needs

16:54

and acknowledges her own needs isolated

16:57

from everyone else's needs in the family because

16:59

the family always

17:01

feel that I'm not like dwarfing my own

17:03

needs. When Caitlyn and I started recording

17:05

almost every single conversation we had

17:07

as part of our work. The biggest thing

17:09

that stood out to me was listening back to the

17:11

recordings and remembering all the thoughts that were

17:13

going through my

17:14

mind. On the

17:16

outside, I would say all the right things. But

17:19

on the inside I

17:20

but I feel like you but that's the whole thing is I thought

17:22

that we'd be good at working together because you do

17:24

stand up to me. You don't feel like you stand up to me?

17:27

Oh,

17:27

god.

17:29

I I think that it sometimes it Her

17:32

eyes point at me

17:35

as if to say there's a right answer

17:38

and there's a wrong answer. What's the right answer?

17:40

Like her hand is over a knob.

17:42

If I say what I truly feel and it's

17:45

in opposition, that knob

17:47

is gonna dial up, the tension

17:49

in the room.

17:50

Is gonna get stronger. Like,

17:52

I guess, I'm trying to think of an example. I don't know.

17:54

Stand up too is kind of vague. don't know. Like,

17:56

I think that sometimes

17:58

there's

17:58

the answer that makes her feel valid. If I say the

18:00

right thing, the novel go down,

18:02

and we'll be fine. I don't

18:03

know. But I feel like I cater my content sometimes

18:05

to make sure Why can't just answer the question? Cater

18:08

my content. Here my content.

18:14

Well, yeah. Because I care about you because I love

18:16

you, and because I wanna make that you're feeling

18:18

good and feeling happy.

18:19

Like, sometimes, like, maybe I am a

18:21

bit too I don't know. Sometimes, I feel

18:23

like I'm not I don't stand up too. About

18:25

is the truth. I'm worried about your emotional

18:28

being so I'm with hold I don't know.

18:30

With with hold, but, like, I just

18:32

focus on the positive more than I mean, I

18:34

think that's in life. I focus on the positive

18:36

effects. Yeah. I I do

18:38

too, usually. I mean, it's been a hard few

18:40

years, but I used to be just like that

18:42

too.

18:43

Yeah. I was

18:43

just focused on the positive.

18:47

That's the sound of my relief. And

18:49

I

18:49

kinda said what I felt, I think.

18:53

I have to keep going. So I still have juice.

18:55

Great. Very good. Perfect.

18:57

K love you. Cool. Oh,

19:01

if I had wings, she's like, no.

19:03

It was dog.

19:04

I would fly away to

19:07

the one I love. We're

19:09

in Caitlyn's living room, which is also

19:11

currently our office. It's a

19:13

huge loft that she's subletting. She's

19:16

been asked to create a performance for an award

19:18

ceremony me. The performance is

19:20

gonna be called sisters. Sister

19:23

to the one line. Oh, fly.

19:27

Or rehearsing. Would

19:31

fly away to the one nine

19:33

eleven? I don't know like that. Sir.

19:37

All ideas are good ideas, except

19:39

that they're not loose. Exactly. Like

19:42

1234567891.

19:48

I'm getting so frustrated.

19:50

What

19:50

do I what do you want me to do then? What time? Just

19:52

don't just go like this and down.

19:54

This and down. Every time she tells me what

19:56

to do.

19:56

Yeah. Don't put your hands below there.

19:59

Probably get your hand at it.

20:01

just flashback to our childhood? It

20:03

looks it doesn't look good. Okay.

20:05

It's on the bottom? Yeah. That's disgusting.

20:08

Down. This and down. This and

20:09

down. Okay. When

20:11

did you get that?

20:13

I know.

20:13

I'm bad. I'm cruel.

20:14

You're bad. You're really bad. It's just like a

20:17

no. My vision of who she was continued

20:19

to be colored by a childhood that featured her

20:21

as the bratty irrational stubborn hot

20:23

headed bossy mean insensitive

20:25

kid. Now

20:25

I get him away. Who wants this?

20:27

She had a strong inclination of how

20:30

things should go. There's

20:31

a lot of crap in this that it's

20:33

really worrying and people don't wanna watch.

20:35

So I still saw her as the bad kid.

20:40

That's who she was to me. My

20:42

big sister who would call me a hunt

20:44

at the earliest opportunity during any disagreement

20:46

we might

20:47

have. Hey, Lee. Just throw in the microwave.

20:50

You have to clean it up. She

20:56

knew I hated that. She

20:58

was a big, strong, stubborn, brat

21:01

any other evil. Caitlin's evil.

21:04

Caitlin has evidence. Everyone is

21:06

on

21:06

record. We are recording. Okay. Good.

21:08

This is evidence. Okay.

21:11

One do the ingo. Watch watch

21:13

watch watch.

21:17

123456I

21:20

didn't believe her fully when she said she wanted

21:22

to change her dynamic on the steps of Montreal.

21:25

How could she? She had it so good

21:27

having a little sister who worshiped her and

21:29

would do whatever she

21:30

said. Why would she ever help facilitate a

21:32

change when it meant not getting her way?

21:34

Oh, because I was thinking like like the arms,

21:36

like, these arms, like, Oh, yeah.

21:38

Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Oh, natalie.

21:41

Got a good idea. Finally.

21:43

Yeah. Oh,

21:46

if I had Wayne. The

21:48

performance ended up going

21:50

really well. We had fun doing

21:52

it. And she did actually end up

21:54

taking my

21:55

feedback. But all I could focus on

21:57

was negative.

21:58

To the one I love. I was

22:01

bitter. Couldn't get over

22:03

the past. We had been working together

22:05

for six

22:05

months. The bitterness

22:08

is growing.

22:10

Please excuse this brief

22:12

interruption. We'll be right back.

22:18

We're sitting on a patio, working

22:21

on Caitlin's next podcast.

22:25

Our lives. And Caitlin keeps saying,

22:27

we have to make this a love story. What

22:29

if we wrote love letters to each other?

22:32

So I'm looking at the blank page, trying

22:36

to find the love. Dear

22:39

Caitlyn, When

22:42

did I realize you were both strong and

22:45

weak at the same time?

22:48

Okay, no. What's the

22:50

morbid question? That must

22:52

be recorded. So And then I asked

22:55

you

22:55

a morbid

22:56

quest. Yeah. You've have you you've

22:58

never thought about killing yourself? Never.

23:04

No. Wow.

23:13

I

23:14

just wanted to know. I

23:16

like it whenever I'm validated that I

23:18

have mental problems. Are

23:30

you able

23:36

Your sense to start? Yeah. What

23:40

you're hearing right now was

23:42

a typical day at the office.

23:53

All those days at the office

23:55

that I had to try not to cry.

23:57

If I was having personal moments, That's

24:00

what she records and puts out on the radio

24:03

for people to listen to. That's

24:06

what we've been recording. To

24:09

put on the radio for people to listen to.

24:13

It's true when I started

24:15

thinking about writing a suicide note last

24:17

night I got I just got sad.

24:19

It didn't make me feel good. Did

24:23

she recall somebody? Like, what what's the

24:25

next

24:25

step? Like, god.

24:31

The fear of losing you makes admitting

24:33

how often your brain ventures to thoughts of

24:35

suicide hard to take. I mean, I'm really

24:37

Is it a pass? Because, like, I'm I'm trying

24:40

not to imagine what it would have been like to wake

24:42

up this morning and not have a sister. Especially

24:47

after we've been so close, you know, this

24:50

this, you know, It

24:56

feels like you don't value me and the care

24:58

I have towards your well-being. And

25:01

I mean, we called that place for rehab

25:03

because we thought that that would be a good way to get

25:05

you out of it, and we didn't really do that.

25:08

And I don't know the fact

25:10

that you're therapist asked

25:12

you to check into a mental some places

25:14

where they could take care of your mental health

25:16

because you

25:19

My love story to you is filled with care.

25:22

Care for your well-being. See you

25:24

later. I'm

25:27

I'm feeling

25:31

I don't know what to do. First

25:35

step is garbage and laundry, then

25:38

work if can. And

25:41

if not, just

25:42

chill. Either option. Okay.

25:44

Okay.

25:46

Do you know where we're gonna put this right here? Like,

25:48

yard? A

25:51

dumpster.

26:02

Confusion of seeing woman who's so

26:04

capable and headstrong. While

26:07

simultaneously

26:09

being easily broken. This

26:11

is one night of all of your life.

26:14

Not the end of the world.

26:28

We're walking down Queen Street. Kaitlyn

26:32

starts freaking

26:34

out. She says to

26:36

me, it

26:38

feels like I'm missing a layer of

26:40

skin. We start recording.

26:43

I feel like I'm about to have a panic attack

26:45

and I'm

26:49

trying to listen to your story, but I keep

26:51

phasing out and, like,

26:54

all the noises feel sound really loud

26:56

to me right now. Every

26:58

person's facial expressions

27:01

looks mean. Like,

27:04

every it feels like the whole world is attacking me

27:06

right now.

27:12

She's

27:12

on a quieter street and

27:14

maybe yeah. Yeah. I don't have

27:16

control over this when it happens. Mhmm.

27:19

Okay. And

27:21

down the street?

27:23

I'm I have learned to

27:24

When I get like this, it's a burden on whoever's

27:27

around me. So

27:31

I'm trying to figure out how to deal with

27:32

that. Yeah. Well,

27:34

we can we can say Workisode

27:37

done as of right now and just

27:39

say it's sister time right now. Okay.

27:42

Like, we can officially But

27:44

even as my sister though, I mean, like, it's the

27:46

whole thing. It's like it's not just people

27:48

who work for me. It's also my friends who feel this

27:50

way. Right. If my vibe right

27:53

now is too intense and

27:55

uncomfortable, you don't have

27:58

to you don't you're it's not your job

28:02

to help it become better or

28:04

to sit with me through it until it's over. Right.

28:06

And I if it especially if I'm, like, I

28:09

need to learn

28:11

how to take time out gracefully

28:14

and neutrally. Right.

28:20

I'd have to get her out of bed

28:23

like I did when we were teenagers, I'd

28:25

come into work and she'd just be looping

28:29

dark thoughts, helpless

28:32

thoughts and

28:34

she'd share everything with me or

28:37

sisters. Her

28:41

job is sharing everything.

28:50

I'm I'm easy

28:52

to love on

28:55

a once a week basis. I

29:01

am not easy to love. On

29:04

a daily basis.

29:24

When I read what I wrote down, it

29:27

wasn't really a love letter. It

29:31

was a letter that showed

29:33

me how bad things were. My

29:40

sister's well-being was on my shoulders

29:44

because I couldn't trust her to take care of herself.

29:47

It was kind of always that way. But

29:51

working together, I

29:53

saw the struggle up close. It

29:56

was too much for me. I

29:58

didn't know how to help her, so

30:00

I just felt like I was drowning under

30:02

the weight of it

30:03

all. And it wasn't getting

30:05

better. So I asked my parents.

30:08

Like, because I guess just this past

30:10

month or whatever, like, it has been a whole

30:12

month of me having, like, lot of and downs

30:14

with my relationship with Caitlyn. And, like,

30:17

I guess, it's been the farthest

30:19

down that it's ever been. Like, it feels, like,

30:21

kinda, like, the rose glasses glasses

30:23

or shadowing, you know, like, I mean and that's the

30:25

thing. Like, I know there's good parts, but

30:27

it's true. Kind of the bad parts, like, overwhelmed

30:29

me this this month, I guess. Like,

30:32

Yeah. Like like the the veil of, like,

30:34

love over everything was,

30:37

like, cracked a bit. And I and I did feel

30:39

like a darkness towards her that, like, I didn't

30:41

know how to deal with. Like, this

30:44

thing, I guess, I've I've been growing and, like,

30:46

realizing that, like, everything can't be just

30:48

magic fuzzy, like like, no

30:50

one person can actually, like,

30:52

be all of that always. You know? And I

30:54

guess well, like and and just

30:56

why? Why why do we feel like I'm the vic

30:58

and, like, why why why is that a narrative that's

31:00

come across these

31:02

years? You know, like, and what what can I do to not

31:04

be that, I guess? Nothing's

31:08

kicking friendly. Because otherwise, the authorities

31:10

end up just falling back into your old pads, so

31:12

you guys should Yeah. That's what you're

31:15

talking about trying to to avoid

31:17

that. I mean,

31:22

What thing is means which it

31:25

all it was not all bad. They

31:27

didn't know what to say. But

31:29

next time they were in town, My

31:31

dad hands me this book. He

31:34

found it at my Bobby's place, my

31:36

grandma when they were cleaning it

31:38

out. He said, maybe

31:40

this will help you with Caitlin. It's

31:42

called stop walking on egg shells. At

31:45

least he's trying. You

31:48

know, like, our relationship is a lot a lot

31:50

of the time our relationship is about

31:52

me, you know. And

31:57

what would it look like for it

31:59

to be more balanced? You

32:01

know? Yeah. And

32:06

You know? Like, if this isn't working through you,

32:08

then that's okay. You know? Like,

32:11

if you quit, I'm not gonna

32:13

hold that against you. As

32:16

in our sister relationship. But

32:22

I want you to be happy. You don't own me anything.

32:27

And

32:27

I love you no matter what. You really don't

32:29

you don't own me anything at all. And

32:32

figure out ask yourself, what am I getting out of

32:34

this job? Am I doing this just out of sense

32:37

of obligation? Because I'm scared my sister

32:39

is gonna, you know,

32:42

unravel into a pile of rubble.

32:44

You know? Like, that's not a good reason to do a

32:46

job. So

33:06

Yeah. I mean, it's it's also I mean,

33:09

all your problems are my problems and, like,

33:11

your day is my day and, like and then when

33:13

I come home from work, it's, like, I'm just talking about

33:15

you. You know, like, it's but what is my you

33:17

know, it is very coordinated and very,

33:19

like Totally.

33:25

Nah.

33:32

She's giving me an out, and

33:35

she says she'll be fine. But

33:38

I don't know if I can trust that. My

33:40

therapist asked me how

33:42

does it make you feel thinking

33:45

about quitting. And

33:47

I said, relieved.

33:51

I felt trapped, feeling

33:54

like if I quit or take space, She

33:57

might actually plummet deeper.

34:00

What do I need? Do I

34:02

need to quit this job? Am

34:05

I getting what I need out of this

34:07

position? We

34:09

put too long.

34:11

Do something wrong. Peter.

34:14

Play this. Yes. Play

34:16

the thing. I

34:20

tried to see the good in my situation. This

34:44

is kind of amazing. Sorry.

34:48

I'm not just doing a men.

34:50

Can you give me a no? That's in harmony. You're

34:52

doing

34:52

music. Or

34:55

making art together, I'm getting paid to sing.

35:08

She laughs at all my jokes. She

35:10

makes me laugh.

35:14

We get dressed up in gem costumes just

35:16

to work on the gem episode.

35:21

How do we wanna attack all this episode?

35:24

We're closer than we've ever been. Well,

35:26

I'm just I really like going out with you --

35:28

Mhmm. -- because I look over

35:30

and you're like, enchanting a

35:32

group of people. You know?

35:35

I was like, oh my god. She's enchanting noise.

35:48

When I was working nine to five in an

35:50

office, I

35:52

was wishing that I could work for a creative

35:54

company. I

35:58

guess this is what a creative company looks like.

36:01

So while some days I was dragging her

36:03

out of bed, Other days,

36:06

she'd taken me out for breakfast and asked

36:08

me about my artistic dreams.

36:10

Create a business to spread joy of

36:12

bikes, flowers, and music, hashtag

36:14

flowerbike Berry and

36:17

chanting people with my talent, including

36:19

regular space for serenading, finding

36:22

the time to create a website, I know I was,

36:24

like, finding the time. Just create a website

36:26

as well as your pipe, but finding time.

36:28

Finding the

36:28

time. I guess it's hard not to stop. She

36:31

takes me on a trip to Copenhagen. Copenhagen. Copenhagen.

36:39

Work trips that I used to watch on her Instagram

36:42

are now my work trips. How

36:45

do children fit in my description? That's

36:49

a five year plan. How did children

36:50

fit? Figure that out.

36:53

Children are art too.

36:54

She really does support my art. She's

36:57

the biggest supporter I've ever had besides

36:59

my dad.

37:00

Yeah. You should watch because she's very

37:02

good performing.

37:03

I'm gonna sing a song. Okay. This is her

37:05

sister.

37:06

I wanna see. I wanna see. I have to see. I

37:08

to see. I have to

37:10

see. I have to watch.

37:11

The sister is here. You all have to

37:13

listen to. Hello.

37:15

I fall in love too

37:17

easily. Problem

37:37

is I never know what Caitlyn gonna get.

37:42

The happy, joyful, creative, Caitlin,

37:45

or the looping dark depression

37:47

feeling.

38:03

That was cool. That was

38:05

so good.

38:08

That was bad. Oh,

38:10

now I must talk to show.

38:12

Okay. Well, you also have a oh,

38:15

yeah. It's head and feet. Wow. It's

38:17

been seven months. I

38:19

come home from work, emotionally exhausted.

38:23

I noticed, I stopped walking on

38:25

egg shells' book that my dad gave me.

38:27

And I

38:30

decide to give it a try. Stop

38:34

walking on egg shells. Taking

38:36

back your life when someone you care about has

38:38

borderline personality order. I don't

38:40

even think my dad read the full title. He

38:43

just saw a walking on egg shells and

38:45

thought, maybe this could help. But

38:47

as soon as I open the first page, it

38:50

says,

38:52

is someone you care about causing a great

38:54

deal of pain?

38:55

Yeah. I guess it's my relationship to your

38:57

painting, maybe, or my relationship

38:59

to

39:00

Do you find yourself concealing what you

39:02

think or feel because you're afraid of the

39:04

other person's reaction.

39:06

Being your sister or support sister,

39:09

I don't know, my relationship to

39:12

Or because it just doesn't seem worth

39:14

the horrible fight or hurt feelings that

39:16

will follow. So I don't know how that relates

39:18

to oh,

39:21

man. Are you

39:23

afraid to ask for things in the relationship ship.

39:25

Well well,

39:26

just yeah. Like, wanting

39:28

the least possible

39:33

conflict. So I guess that in that

39:35

in that perspective, it does seem like

39:37

your way equals not least possible

39:39

conflict. Do you feel like your needs

39:41

are not important? Wow.

39:47

I keep reading. Criteria

39:52

for BPD. A

39:55

pervasive pattern of instability and marked

39:57

impulsivity beginning by early adulthood

39:59

and present in variety of contexts as

40:02

indicated by five or more of the following.

40:05

One, frantic efforts

40:07

to avoid real or imagined

40:09

abandonment. I just

40:12

felt like wow, like the last person

40:14

on Earth that I thought I could trust,

40:16

like, is turning on me

40:18

too, like, is shutting me out too, like,

40:21

Two, a pattern of unstable

40:23

and intense interpersonal relationships characterized

40:26

by alternating between extremes of

40:28

idealization, and devaluation.

40:30

Sean and I are in a very good place.

40:34

Very good place. That

40:37

match. Alright. Three. Impulsivity

40:41

in at least two areas that are potentially

40:43

self damaging, spending,

40:45

sex, substance abuse, than

40:47

I was just telling her that I'm

40:49

drinking again. I know you're judging

40:51

me. Well, I can't just mic

40:53

care for your help. You

40:55

skipped the gym to go drink.

40:57

I I knew I wasn't trying

40:59

to

41:00

drink. I was in

41:02

China. But I

41:04

did.

41:04

Nicholas driving. Because she

41:06

sped so fast down the dirt roads that she

41:08

turned an hour long commute into a forty

41:10

minute panic nascargoes. Oh,

41:13

man. Four. Recurrent

41:17

suicidal behavior gestures

41:19

or threats. Doctor Hamilton asked

41:21

me the first time. Like, she's like, have you had thoughts

41:23

of self harm? I'm like, yeah, every day. Number five.

41:26

Instability due to marked reactivity

41:29

of mood, irritability or anxiety,

41:31

usually lasting a few

41:32

hours. Because I need a picture and then I'm like, don't

41:34

wanna know that. So I'll just be out. Like,

41:38

wait. Whatever what you're doing with this other

41:39

video. We're not doing

41:41

it right, but don't talk about it. Don't talk about

41:44

it. Six. Identity

41:46

disturbance, unstable self

41:48

image, or sense of self. She

41:51

has an entire

41:53

performance piece I'm Caitlyn.

41:55

About this exact thing. I'm

41:58

Caitlyn. I'm Caitlyn

42:01

impressed.

42:03

No. No. Hi.

42:09

I'm the real catbird.

42:13

Seven, chronic feelings of emptiness.

42:16

Why can't I just quit life So

42:18

it's the fucking point. I don't know

42:20

what the fuck the point is. High

42:22

functioning invisible border lines act

42:24

perfectly normal most of the time,

42:26

at least to people outside of the family,

42:29

unlike conventional BPs, they

42:31

usually don't project vulnerability. It

42:34

appears normal, even charismatic to outsiders.

42:37

But exhibits BP trades behind closed doors,

42:40

may have a career and be

42:42

successful. Oh

42:46

my gosh. This

42:50

is so weird. May

42:53

need to feel in control of other people because

42:55

they feel so out of control with themselves. In

42:58

addition, they may be trying to

43:00

make their own world more predictable and

43:02

manageable. Like, I get really controlling and

43:04

really panicky about stuff because I'm overidentifying

43:07

with the work. And if the work is the work and Caitlin is

43:09

Caitlin, I can be a lot more

43:11

solid and a lot less emotional

43:14

about everything and a loss a lot less controlling.

43:16

A lot of controlling people with BPD are

43:19

like people with their degree burns over ninety

43:21

percent of their body. Lacking

43:23

emotional skin, they feel agony

43:25

at the slightest touch. Movement. That's

43:28

almost exactly what she told me last

43:30

week. BP's behavior is more about

43:32

them than you. The potential loss of

43:34

a relationship can be like facing the loss of

43:37

an arm or leg or even death. Often,

43:40

what may seem like angry, impulsive, and manipulative

43:42

behavior is really

43:45

a misguided attempt to elicit

43:48

involvement and caring as

43:50

torturous as this can be for you.

43:53

Imagine what it's like for the person who has the

43:55

disorder. You

43:58

can take a break and get away from

44:00

it for a while. But

44:02

the BP lives with the fear and

44:04

panic twenty four hours a day.

44:08

Oh my gosh. This

44:11

cute one has Phoebe Beauty.

44:41

This was episode three of

44:44

Systems. Workisode. In

44:47

this episode, you hear excerpts from the

44:49

book. Stop walking on egg shells.

44:51

By Paul T. Mason and Randy

44:53

Krueger. If

44:56

any of this sounds familiar and you want

44:58

to learn more about BPD, You

45:00

can find more information at WWW

45:02

dot bbd resource center

45:05

dot org. You can also

45:07

visit our website for more helpful links

45:09

and information.

45:11

The heart radio dot org forward

45:13

slash sisters.

45:17

If you are having suicidal thoughts or

45:20

urges, please call 18334564566.

45:27

Health is available twenty 473

45:29

hundred and sixty five days a year from

45:32

talk suicide Canada. For

45:34

all things hot, follow at the heart

45:36

radio on Instagram and Twitter.

45:40

You can follow mermaid Palace at mermaid Palace

45:42

r on Instagram. To see photos

45:44

of Katelyn and Natalie's real life working together.

45:48

You can follow Katelyn Press at Katelyn

45:50

Press and Natalie at

45:53

Natalie Breastie. This

45:55

episode was written and associate produce

45:58

when Natalie Breast. Written

46:00

and directed by KP,

46:03

the host and creator of the show.

46:06

You heard synthesized sounds and music composition,

46:08

by Katelyn Press and Vokels

46:11

by Nally Press. This series

46:13

was edited by Me,

46:16

Debit Suren Day. Follow me on

46:18

nSTAR app. Soft volumes.

46:22

That's soft and then volumes

46:24

with a zero. Our researching

46:26

producer. Is Alexandra

46:29

Pinnel. Sister's design

46:31

by Jen Ng. Original

46:34

photos captured by Thirango Ramanaki

46:38

Big thanks to our editorial advisors

46:41

whose brains shaped what the story became.

46:44

Meghan Castle and put it in a

46:46

big way. On the overall narrative arc

46:48

and thematic focus of the series. We

46:51

couldn't have done it without them. Also,

46:54

Jennifer Costa De Roche, Mitchell

46:57

Acayama, Fabiola Carletti,

47:00

and Harry Nathan, Ellia

47:02

Bibani is a talented radio

47:04

maker with her own show. We

47:07

are not the virus. Check

47:09

it out wherever you get your podcast. Special

47:12

thanks also to Sarah Rose,

47:15

Audrey Matovitch, Yuriy

47:17

LaSotta, Zach Wine Garden,

47:20

who all listened to iterations of this project

47:22

and gave their thoughts. Brendan

47:25

Baker helped K P make this

47:27

mix sparkle. Thanks

47:30

also to Maime Palace's support team.

47:33

Alison Lay, Blake

47:35

Day, and Pavy Tommy

47:37

Bryan. Thanks to our friends

47:39

at CBC, Roshni Naya,

47:42

Sarah Clayton, Damon Fellas,

47:45

CECL Fernandez, Tina

47:47

Varma, RF Narani,

47:50

and Tanya Springer. Stay

47:52

tuned for the next installment of

47:54

sisters. What's wrong owed.

47:58

This special season of the hearth is

48:00

a co production of CBC Podcasts and

48:02

Marmee Palace, The

48:05

heart is a proud member of

48:07

radiotopia.

48:20

So you meet a woman online. I love it.

48:22

I just love it, but it turns out

48:24

thousands of other people are in love with her

48:26

too. Less of Brazil.

48:28

Janessa Brazil, one woman's image

48:30

is being used by criminals to target

48:33

innocent people looking for love online.

48:36

You win their hearts, you win their wallets.

48:38

Love, Janessa. My wild

48:41

quest to find her the human

48:43

face of a digital con. Available

48:45

now wherever you get your podcast. Radio

48:52

to beep.

48:54

From PRX.