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1:05

Hello and welcome to the History Hour podcast

1:07

from the BBC World Service with me, Max

1:09

Pearson, the past brought to life by those

1:11

who are there. This week, 10

1:14

years on, the pain of unanswered questions over

1:16

the fate of MH370. A

1:18

little bit on me. Something happened

1:21

to a flight of your family.

1:23

This flight disappeared and

1:25

we don't know what happened. So I was the last

1:27

one actually to know what happened to this plane. After

1:30

decades of trauma, the rehabilitation

1:32

of Joseph Konye's child soldiers

1:34

in Uganda. These guns

1:36

were actually trained to use machine guns

1:39

to destroy life. I thought

1:41

they need to use sewing machines

1:43

to mend their own brokenness. Plus

1:46

the Second World War child

1:48

evacuees from Paris and 50

1:50

years on Portugal's Carnation Revolution

1:52

Remembered. But

1:55

before all that, a tale of

1:57

David vs Goliath. This takes us

1:59

to Uruguay. What are the

2:01

first countries in the world to try

2:03

to ban smoking? But in Twenty ten,

2:05

the tobacco giant Philip Morris took the

2:08

country to court claiming the measures it

2:10

was seeking to introduce devalued it's investments

2:12

Greece. Livingston has been finding out about

2:14

this epic government versus big business story.

2:18

Of. America.

2:24

Are. Making a

2:26

house or the office all. The Kitchen

2:28

session Yeah, it was part of the

2:30

government anti smoking. Drive, But not

2:32

long after it's launch, it hit

2:34

an obstacle. Phone. A

2:37

suppressor. it was some very

2:39

disagreeable so price madea food.

2:41

Yeah! Munoz was Uruguay's Minister

2:44

of Public Health. Safeway,

2:46

Love to see know he I was

2:48

in the office absolute we found out

2:50

about his from the media pressured both

2:53

were arriving at the ministry. We

2:55

didn't. Think he was funny

2:57

sandal that a com to

2:59

place was taken. Measures to

3:01

protect people's health should be

3:03

treated in this well as

3:05

a summer. Neither the tobacco

3:07

company Philip Morris have lodged

3:10

a complaint at the World

3:12

Bank's International Center. So the

3:14

Settlement of investment disputes alleging

3:16

that Uruguay's anti smoking messes

3:18

devalued it's cigarette trademarks and

3:20

investments in the country. Muslim

3:22

of kinda the reactor that about that we

3:24

realized. That was have to say this.

3:27

Because the cost will defend. That was

3:29

just and necessary not only for our

3:31

own country, but for all of the

3:33

country's against whom the touch men might

3:35

later. We used to a set of

3:37

silos two weeks. uruguay

3:40

was first country in the americas

3:42

and one of the first in

3:44

the world to introduce anti smoking

3:46

legislation the campaign was led by

3:49

uruguay's presidents have bought a vasquez

3:51

a doctor and cancer specialist it

3:53

up this is sort of the

3:55

goal of he only has been

3:57

a professor from apology as the

3:59

faculty of medicine He dedicated his

4:01

life to fighting cancer. He

4:04

was warm, calm, also very

4:06

funny, and did everything with good

4:08

humor. Sabarí

4:11

Vasquez spoke about the dangers of smoking

4:13

at the United Nations in 2015. He

4:17

said a million Latin Americans will die

4:19

each year from cancer if

4:32

governments don't take action. In

4:35

2006 Uruguay banned

4:37

smoking in enclosed spaces such

4:40

as bars, restaurants, workplaces and

4:42

universities, as the BBC

4:44

reported. Proportionately Uruguay had

4:47

more smokers than any other country in

4:49

Latin America and the government wants

4:51

to drive down the number of smokers to

4:53

just 5% of the population. At

4:58

first we were saying it's going

5:00

to be a disaster, people are going to

5:03

say it's too cold to smoke outside. But

5:06

really I was surprised. My

5:08

son, who was young at the time,

5:10

came home from an nightclub and said

5:13

it was great. We

5:15

could see people's faces until 5am. Before

5:18

you couldn't see anyone because

5:20

of the smoke. People were happy that in restaurants

5:24

you could smell the spices in the food instead

5:26

of tobacco. Smoke

5:36

outside, don't annoy your grandma,

5:38

respect other people, this government

5:41

advert says. It

5:47

took time to educate the public.

5:49

There were moments of friction with

5:51

some people in restaurants and bars

5:53

who received a fine because

5:56

no one likes getting fined. But

5:58

I felt these exchanges had a problem. positive

6:00

impact because complaining against a

6:02

measure which most of the

6:05

population supports is not viewed

6:07

well by society. So this

6:09

complaint actually helped the

6:11

battle against smoking. Uruguay's

6:16

anti-smoking policies won praise from

6:18

international health experts. Here,

6:21

the Director General of the

6:23

World Health Organization, Dr Margaret

6:25

Chan, congratulates President Vazquez

6:27

for winning an award from

6:30

the US-based Campaign for Tobacco-Free

6:32

Kids. You have

6:35

been steadfast in protecting your citizens

6:37

from the harms of tobacco

6:40

despite enormous interference from

6:42

industries. Cigarette packets

6:44

had to be 80% covered

6:47

with warnings. On

6:50

the packet of cigarettes in

6:52

your hand, you will see that

6:55

smoking not only caused lung

6:57

cancer, but that in pregnancy it

6:59

affects the size and formation

7:01

of the child. It affects people's

7:04

respiratory capacity. It causes heart

7:06

attacks. Gradually, we

7:08

increased the size of

7:10

these photograph warnings on

7:12

cigarette packets. Philip

7:15

Morris said the covering up of

7:17

cigarette packets and the

7:19

banning of different varieties of the

7:21

same brand restricted its right to

7:23

use its own trademark, infringed

7:26

its intellectual property rights

7:29

and reduced the value of its

7:31

investments. And that's why this test

7:34

case with Philip Morris is seen

7:36

as so important, the right

7:38

of an individual country to

7:40

pursue its own aggressive health

7:42

policies against the commercial freedoms

7:44

of a cigarette company. We

7:47

had to hire a law firm in the

7:49

United States. For seven

7:51

years, a small country with few

7:54

resources had to bear the costs

7:56

of fighting a case at the

7:58

international level. But

8:01

the government was adamant it was going to

8:03

fight the case. Uruguay

8:07

believes that we are a sovereign

8:09

country with the right to take

8:11

the measures necessary to protect people's

8:14

health. It was not possible to

8:16

negotiate. It would have

8:18

been inexplicable for people if we

8:20

went backwards and withdrew measures accepted

8:22

by the public and carefully studied.

8:27

The dispute actually strengthened public support

8:30

for anti-smoking measures in Uruguay, which

8:32

has a population of just over

8:34

3 million. The

8:38

population was angry with Philip Morris,

8:40

angry because they were hampering our

8:42

freedom to work for public health

8:44

and taking advantage of the small

8:46

size of the country. Rapidly,

8:49

we saw the emergence of the

8:51

sentiment of what we call garaterua,

8:53

the tenacious spirit of the country,

8:56

which comes from the original people

8:58

of Uruguay, the carua, who barely

9:00

exist today. People

9:03

saw Uruguay facing a powerful

9:05

international company, so it was

9:07

like they did against colliahs, and

9:09

in general the public supports the

9:12

size of the underdog. In

9:16

2016, the tribunal dismissed the claims made

9:19

by the company. Philip Morris was ordered

9:21

to pay Uruguay $7 million in legal

9:23

costs. We

9:28

were happy that justice had been served

9:30

on an issue that was important for

9:32

the whole world. But

9:39

there was a sad twist to this story. The

9:41

president and cancer specialist who waged

9:44

this battle for public health, Dr.

9:46

Tabare Vasquez, died

9:48

in 2020 of lung cancer.

10:00

When he died people came. Out

10:02

on the street to a flawless

10:04

she's portrays. Could see have

10:06

a crush. The

10:09

battle between a small country

10:11

and a big tobacco company

10:14

had lasting implications. In the

10:16

years that followed, more than

10:18

seventy countries around the world introduced

10:20

anti smoking legislation. Bless.

10:22

I lose his doubled in see

10:24

my health is about that. Commercial

10:26

interests yes of the company, however

10:29

be a multinational. The company Macys.

10:31

He was a very important victory

10:33

for public health international scum Brazil

10:35

A funny word, he died senselessly,

10:42

Maria Houllier Munoz was speaking to Grace

10:44

Livingston so a legal slap in the

10:46

face for big Tobacco in Twenty sixteen.

10:48

with that ruling in favor of eunuch

10:51

attempts to curb smoking and with subsequent

10:53

measures taken by governments around the world,

10:55

but the use of tobacco has a

10:57

loan and controversial history of it's own.

10:59

Dr. Sarah Inskip is a bio archaeologist

11:01

at the University of Leicester in the

11:03

Uk who has researched the history of

11:06

tobacco and is with us now that

11:08

we can go back up in a

11:10

time in a moment. Too much. Further

11:12

ago. but in terms of the more

11:14

modern history and modern science, when did

11:16

the world wake up to the harmful

11:18

health effects of tobacco? Say

11:20

the the first sort of recognized

11:23

an acknowledgement of the health effects

11:25

of tobacco is in the Nineteen

11:27

fifties, really with research by Dolan

11:29

Halo, he had links at lung

11:31

cancer, t smoking and in doctors

11:33

in fact, and that work had

11:36

a lot as a significant ramifications.

11:38

Instead of bringing scientific research since

11:40

sort of definitive proof to the

11:42

world that that smoking was linked

11:44

with disease over the sort of

11:46

that the decades that followed after

11:48

that that was. Increasing amounts

11:51

of scientific evidence that not only

11:53

linked tobacco to at lung disease

11:55

but cardiovascular disease. So lots and

11:57

lots of other conditions that. I'm

12:00

became sort of undeniable by by

12:02

the sort of general public, but

12:04

it became increasingly difficult for big

12:07

Tobacco to sort of denies the

12:09

effects that tobacco having on the

12:11

population. Adidas take that big

12:13

lead back in time now but when

12:16

was tobacco first discovered for it's a

12:18

nicotine effects and out of it spread

12:20

across the world. Yes, a

12:22

tobacco has a very, very long

12:24

history actually. So it's actually an

12:26

indigenous to the Americas and as

12:28

populations in America have been using

12:31

it possibly up to sort of

12:33

thirteen thousand years ago and and

12:35

they was using it in sort

12:37

of religious or ritual practices, they

12:39

use it in many different ways

12:41

as a medicinal plants, and they

12:43

also smoked it sort of recreationally.

12:45

Now I think I'll sort of

12:47

history of full of modern tobacco

12:49

use really begins when Europeans arrived.

12:51

In the Americas and they thought they

12:54

see an indigenous Americans using said his

12:56

coat any sort of many many different

12:58

ways and and their intrigued by it

13:01

and in particular is time Europeans at

13:03

across the globe looking for sort of

13:05

cures for ales and diseases and tobacco

13:07

is one of these plots are they

13:10

look at into a lot see maybe

13:12

this is quite useful for us medicinally

13:14

and it it gets bought back in

13:17

the sort of mid sixteenth century to

13:19

the courts of Europe and they start

13:21

using. It and bombs and. By smoking

13:23

it's i'm as drinks or sorts. Of

13:25

things and it spreads with the Elites

13:27

at the same time though, am. Tobacco.

13:30

Is seen been smokes as well

13:32

by indigenous Americans and Europeans sailors

13:35

and adventurous sort of bring that

13:37

habit back as well and and

13:39

it becomes for a popular to

13:41

spread from the ports and and

13:44

certainly in England by this that

13:46

the turn of the seventeenth century

13:48

that there's quite a bit of

13:50

tobacco being imported at from the

13:52

Spanish into England and and interestingly

13:55

it just it. Keeps it

13:57

keeps spreading and in. England

13:59

they try. Proponents am I So King

14:01

James countless tobacco and sixteen I for

14:03

he tries to been A. He doesn't

14:05

like the idea that the English is

14:08

money on Spanish tobacco, but he also

14:10

talks about some of the health effects

14:12

too. But it it you know it,

14:14

he puts a tax on it. It

14:16

makes a lot of money for the

14:18

crown and so am A. This is

14:20

sort of anti tobacco message gets lost

14:22

within that lin. The English spread it

14:25

as they move out across the globe

14:27

and they tried particular with the.says well

14:29

the dust spread. It. And it's

14:31

It's incredibly rapid. How fast. Task

14:33

Tobacco travels across across the

14:35

globe. Within fifty years. With

14:38

only becomes popular, it also becomes

14:40

lucrative. I'm I guess yes they

14:42

would have been competition between trading

14:44

nations over tobacco. Yes certainly

14:46

so the Spanish or the first

14:48

over to the Americas and as

14:50

they are the first people that

14:52

really stop producing it for trade

14:54

and certainly am other as a

14:56

colonial nations at the time. So

14:58

England, port, School, France, or Us

15:00

starting. To look at this and

15:02

am a certain eat the first

15:04

sort of successful English colony. James

15:06

Town really thrive. Office tobacco. That's.

15:09

Dr. Sarah in skip a bio archaeologist

15:11

of University of Leicester, Next,

15:14

one of the most troubling aviation

15:16

mysteries of recent decades. Ten years

15:18

ago this week, slight Mh Three

15:20

Seventy disappeared full of passengers and

15:22

crew. What happened to the aircraft

15:24

remains to this day unknown to

15:26

keep on com has been speaking

15:28

to a man whose wife and

15:30

two children were on board that

15:32

doomed site. Is.

15:37

One Nine Soon I am on the

15:39

A as March two thousand and four

15:41

sons and flights and makes to set

15:43

in say is less than an hour

15:46

into it's ten some slaughter lumper today's

15:48

in the copilot is talking to Air

15:50

Traffic Control and One and Impact. on

15:55

my mac right No

16:02

one hears from the aircraft again, as

16:04

this BBC report from the time explains.

16:07

The plane's transponder, which communicates

16:10

with ground radar, stopped. The

16:12

plane did not check in with Vietnamese air

16:15

traffic control. I

16:19

was the last one on this planet to know what

16:21

happened. This is Guilon

16:24

Watrilo. His

16:26

wife, Laurence, and teenage children, Umbra

16:28

and Adrian, are on the plane.

16:32

He's on a different flight. I

16:34

was on the plane between Paris

16:36

and Beijing. While my family

16:39

was going back from holidays, they were

16:41

in Malaysia and they were going back

16:43

in Beijing. They were

16:45

supposed to land at six in

16:47

the morning, and myself, I learned

16:49

in Beijing at four in the

16:51

afternoon. We were supposed

16:53

to spend a week or two together. This

16:58

never happened. When he

17:00

lands at Beijing airport, Guilon turns on

17:02

his phone and sees a text from

17:04

his office. Something happened

17:06

to your family. Please call me

17:08

whenever you want. Someone was waiting

17:11

for me at the airport and

17:14

told me, please follow me. I

17:16

didn't know what was going on. After

17:19

a small walk, I realized that someone

17:22

was waiting for me. It was

17:24

people from the French Embassy. Something

17:27

happened to the flight of your family. This

17:30

flight disappeared. We

17:32

don't know what happened. That's how it

17:34

happened. I was the last one

17:36

to know what happened to this plane.

17:39

Can you tell me what your immediate thoughts

17:42

were? Because it's something so bizarre. It's so

17:45

bizarre, as you said. It cannot be real. You

17:49

cannot believe this is happening. You

17:52

cannot believe this is the truth. But

17:55

immediately you ask questions, but you have

17:57

absolutely no answer. This is absolutely the

17:59

truth. You have no answers. You

18:01

feel so lonely suddenly and

18:03

you don't know what to do. For

18:07

three days now they've been scouring the

18:09

ocean. And still nothing. Flight

18:12

370 has simply vanished. So

18:14

no trace of the 239 people on board.

18:21

And for their families cooped up in

18:23

a Beijing hotel, the

18:25

lack of any definite news is taking a

18:28

terrible toll. No news

18:30

from the plane. So no news

18:32

from the plane means no news of any

18:34

crash. So every day,

18:36

I mean, you are hoping more

18:39

and more because you know that if it

18:41

was a crash, you would know it immediately.

18:43

So there was no proof of crash. So

18:46

every day I was hoping that

18:48

my family could still be alive and I will

18:51

see them again. So for the first week, every

18:53

day was a better day, I would say. A

18:57

week later, the Malaysia Prime

18:59

Minister Najib Razek gives a press

19:01

conference to relay new data.

19:05

He says the plane's communications were

19:07

disabled and that the aircraft changed

19:09

direction twice. First to

19:11

the west and then to the northwest. He

19:14

says he's ending the search in the South China

19:16

Sea and refocusing on

19:18

two possible corridors. From

19:21

the border of Kazakhstan to

19:24

southern Indian Ocean. But

19:27

the new searches yield nothing and the

19:29

stress is too much for the families.

19:32

These women are the family of one

19:34

of the missing Chinese passengers from flight

19:36

MH370. They've

19:39

been waiting for 12 days for news and

19:41

now they can stand it no longer. No

19:48

one can understand how a Boeing 777 plane, 210ft long,

19:50

can simply disappear. As

19:57

the BBC's transport correspondent Richard

19:59

Westcott explains. Former pilots

20:01

and air investigators saying things to me like

20:03

it's bizarre, it's odd, it's surreal. And I

20:06

tell you why, because most problems with planes leave

20:08

a trace. OK, so if all the engines fail

20:10

on an aircraft, it doesn't just fall out of

20:12

the sky. You don't land a plane this big

20:14

anywhere in the world without people noticing. Sixteen

20:17

days after MH370 goes missing,

20:19

the airline texts the relatives.

20:22

Malaysia Airlines deeply regrets that we have

20:25

to assume beyond any reasonable doubts that

20:28

MH370 has been lost and

20:31

that none of those on board survived. It

20:34

was just awful. When you receive on SMS

20:38

that your family is dead, it's a

20:40

little bit strange, no? The

20:42

weeks turn into months and still there

20:44

are no answers for the grieving relatives.

20:49

Gillan and his oldest child, who had not been

20:52

on the plane at the time, face

20:54

unexpected problems. I

20:56

had no death certificates during three years. No

20:59

death certificates means yes, you cannot

21:01

do anything, you cannot have a

21:05

kind of a tomb or whatever.

21:08

But even after I had the death certificate,

21:10

it was not even possible to have it

21:12

because they told me you

21:14

have no bodies. No

21:16

bodies means you cannot have anything. And

21:19

it creates problems all the time

21:21

with taxes, with everyone, because you

21:23

always say we are two but

21:25

the taxes are concentrated with five.

21:28

You cannot sell your house, you cannot sell

21:30

anything, your house or whatever, because

21:32

your wife is supposed to sign on it.

21:36

Then in 2015 comes

21:38

news. A piece of wing

21:40

believed to belong to the plane is discovered

21:42

in the Indian Ocean. The Malaysian

21:45

Prime Minister gives another press conference. It is with a

21:47

very heavy heart that I must tell you that an international team of

21:49

experts have been treated with no The

22:12

and this was for me was the the

22:16

real start of the griefing. Could

22:19

you tell me about them? Ah,

22:21

but them, they were everything to me. We

22:24

were a perfect family, I mean

22:26

three very nice kids, wives, I

22:28

mean I guess everyone

22:30

was happy. It was

22:32

normal life, but normal happy life of

22:35

a family. How

22:38

will you mark the anniversary? Will you mark

22:40

it at all? It's difficult

22:43

to mark it because you know, I

22:45

mean when you lose three people, you

22:49

always have an anniversary. I mean you

22:51

have all the birthdays, first of all

22:53

you have Christmas which is difficult, you

22:55

have actually Christmas

22:57

for me is the most difficult one. Yeah,

23:00

because you think about all the other Christmases you have together.

23:03

Exactly. Gilan

23:05

no longer believes the debris found

23:07

in the Indian Ocean was part

23:10

of MH370. He thinks

23:12

the truth has been covered up and he's

23:14

not alone. Aliens

23:16

and international kidnapping? Conspiracy

23:19

theories fill social media.

23:21

Hijacked by pirates. A meteor

23:23

took the plane down. In

23:26

July 2018, the Malaysian government

23:28

issues a final report into

23:30

the disappearance. It finds

23:32

no conclusive evidence to say what happened

23:35

to MH370. The

23:37

main body of the plane is still missing.

23:40

But I am exactly at the same point

23:42

that I was ten years ago. It means

23:44

we don't know anything, we don't know anything

23:46

at all. I mean we don't know even

23:49

a thing better

23:51

than the first day of the disappearance.

23:54

It's difficult to live with it. Lohr

24:00

was speaking to Vicky Farncomb and remembering

24:02

the family he lost on Malaysian Airlines

24:04

Flight 370 a decade ago. With

24:07

the mystery over what exactly happened still

24:09

troubling the aviation industry, not to mention

24:11

all the relatives of those who died,

24:13

there have been suggestions on this 10th anniversary

24:16

that the search for the wreckage of

24:18

the missing aircraft may yet be resumed.

24:20

For more on this, listen to

24:23

the global story wherever you get

24:25

your BBC podcasts. And still to

24:27

come in our podcast, the overthrow

24:30

of Portugal's right-wing regime 50 years

24:32

ago. The crowd shout, Stannawara. Stannawara

24:34

means the hour has

24:36

come to surrender. And

24:38

French child evacuees in the Second World

24:41

War. People would say,

24:43

oh, I want the little one with

24:45

the white bow. And I

24:47

would say, oh, no, please,

24:50

I have a sister. But

24:52

before that, we're going to descend

24:54

into the horrors inflicted on rural Uganda

24:56

towards the end of the last century.

24:59

That was the period during which

25:01

the notorious warlord Joseph Konya abducted

25:03

children in their thousands to fight

25:05

in his Lord's Resistance Army. In

25:08

the wake of this mayhem in 2002, a Catholic nun arrived in

25:10

the northern town

25:13

of Gulu. She's been telling George

25:15

Crafer about how she helped child soldiers back

25:17

into a normal life after escaping

25:19

the LRA. And her story is distressing

25:22

from the start. She

25:24

was forced to kill her own sister. And

25:27

when she killed her sister, she always felt

25:29

guilty. She said, whenever I

25:32

think about killing my sister, I feel

25:34

like I killed my own self and

25:36

I cannot forgive myself. To

25:42

make sense of what you've just heard, we need to

25:44

go back a few decades. In the late 1980s,

25:47

a group called the Lord's Resistance

25:49

Army led by the warlord Joseph

25:51

Konya began killing and displacing thousands

25:54

near the border between Uganda and

25:56

South Sudan. Their aim

25:58

is to overthrow the Ugandan government. of

26:00

all the country based on the biblical Ten

26:03

Commandments. The LRA has

26:05

been terrorising Northern Uganda since 1987.

26:09

Their primary recruiting tactic is to

26:11

abduct children from their villages in

26:14

Northern Uganda and brainwash them to

26:16

become fanatical fighters. That

26:18

was SBS's Dateline programme. Fast

26:21

forward to 2002 and Gulu, a

26:23

district in the north of Uganda,

26:26

about 300km from the capital Kampala,

26:28

still suffering from the LRA's attacks.

26:31

Sister Rosemary Nurembay was sent to a

26:33

tailoring school in Gulu called St Monica's

26:36

to help those who had been caught

26:38

up in the violence. When

26:41

I arrived in St Monica, of course

26:43

the wall of Gulu

26:45

town, maybe Northern Uganda itself,

26:48

was struggling with the Lord

26:50

of the Sisters army and a lot of

26:52

abduction was taking place that time. A

26:57

mother came with two of her

26:59

daughters. I still

27:01

recall that we were sitting and she told me,

27:04

sister, I would like to leave these

27:06

children with you. And I told her, why do

27:08

you want to leave them? She said, they are not

27:10

safe at home. As well as

27:12

teaching, the school was used as a shelter and

27:15

it wasn't just children showing up. A

27:17

young woman enrolled into the school's

27:19

dressmaking course. Sister Rosemary could

27:22

sense that something wasn't right. It

27:25

was hard for her to smile. She could

27:27

not interact with other students. And

27:29

I decided just to play the role of

27:31

more of a listener and a counsellor.

27:33

I decided to sit by myself and

27:36

invite this guy. I

27:38

asked her, say, why is it that you are

27:40

not able to interact with others? And

27:42

she told me, when I was in

27:44

captivity with the LRA, I

27:47

used to be taken a lot to the front line. That

27:50

was the only time I understood that

27:52

I had some girls who came from

27:54

captivity. She committed all

27:56

sorts of atrocities and later on she

27:59

took my daughter. and reminded others, other

28:01

children, to commit same atrocities as well. The

28:04

rebel commanders would sometimes force children to

28:06

kill their parents or commit

28:08

some other atrocity, like cutting off lips

28:10

or noses. Girls become wives

28:13

to rebel commanders. Many

28:15

returned home with children. When

28:20

I was 14, I was given to a commander as his

28:22

wife. What was he like? Was he

28:25

good to you? How was he to you? Prag,

28:27

he was bad. Sister

28:30

Rosemary realised that many women and girls

28:32

who'd escaped the LRA would still be

28:34

out there. Just like that

28:36

young woman in Konya's commander's mandate

28:39

from God, a documentary by Journeyman

28:41

Pictures. I made a

28:43

pretty announcement to tell the girls that if

28:45

you know you're out there and

28:48

you'd like to have some skills training,

28:50

we are open. You can come

28:52

to us. There was no other

28:54

school receiving girls with children. No

28:57

other school receiving girls who came

28:59

from captivity to come together, because

29:01

at that point, people were all

29:03

scared of anybody coming from captivity

29:06

because they knew these are children who

29:08

are brainwashed. But then we took bold courage

29:10

to accept them. Hundreds

29:13

arrived. I

29:15

underestimated. I didn't think

29:17

that they would come. I

29:19

think that was the really thing which made me

29:21

think of, I said, okay, this is

29:23

a bit too much and perhaps we

29:25

are not prepared. Somehow, Sister

29:27

Rosemary managed to accommodate them,

29:30

but the arrangements weren't perfect.

29:33

There was a room where

29:35

I put two girls. One

29:37

time, the girl from South

29:40

Sudan, I think, came and

29:42

expressed to me and said, Sister,

29:44

sometimes I really feel sorry staying

29:46

together with that girl. And I

29:48

was wondering why. She said,

29:50

when we were in Sudan, I

29:52

was one of those who was forced to

29:55

kill the parents of that girl. Then

29:57

that actually scared me a little

29:59

bit. and I told her, I said, listen, don't

30:02

be afraid of saying with her, because

30:04

right now you're helping her to take care

30:06

of her baby. You just keep on living

30:09

as you are living in a friendly

30:11

manner. And to me,

30:13

her talking to me was a way

30:16

of freeing herself. Rehabilitation

30:18

from the horrific trauma was helped

30:20

by the skills classes at St

30:23

Monica's. When we were

30:25

sewing, we were using sewing machines with

30:28

needles. These girls were actually trained

30:30

to use machine guns to destroy

30:32

life. I thought they

30:34

need to use sewing machines to

30:36

mend their own brokenness and also

30:38

to mend life. Sewing

30:41

for me became very, very vital in

30:43

a way. I started saying,

30:45

listen, girls, you can

30:47

mend your own brokenness. Slowly,

30:54

the students were healing and reclaiming

30:56

part of the childhood that was

30:58

taken from them. The

31:01

mothers would still go to class and study.

31:03

And from time to time, they would come out and meet

31:06

their children, breastfeed them, and you see

31:08

them playing among themselves. That

31:10

gives me a clear picture that these

31:13

were really children, growing children. They needed

31:15

time also to relax. They needed time

31:17

to play. But despite her

31:19

best efforts, sister Rosemary couldn't stop

31:21

some demons from the past reappearing.

31:27

A young man walked in my office and

31:30

he had a gun. He told me, he said, sister,

31:32

I've come to collect my wife. I

31:34

said, do I have your wife here? He said,

31:37

yes. And I boldly

31:39

told him, I said, can't call her your

31:41

wife. She was your sex

31:43

slave. And he looked

31:45

at me, but he decided to walk out anyway.

31:48

When he went away, I was

31:50

so scared for the

31:53

fact that this girl, she called the girl

31:55

by name and I knew that I had

31:57

the girl. And then later on, I was

31:59

told by some... somebody that that

32:01

man is so brutal, lucky enough

32:03

he did not do anything. It

32:06

was the last time the LRA came

32:08

knocking. Operation Iron Fist

32:10

was beginning to clamp down on

32:12

Konya's soldiers. The

32:15

Ugandan government has had enough. They've

32:18

sent 10,000 troops in support personnel to

32:20

step out the rebels once and for

32:22

all. And by 2005 the

32:24

LRA had been driven out of Uganda. That

32:28

same year the International Criminal Court

32:30

issued an arrest warrant for Konya

32:32

for war crimes and crimes against

32:34

humanity. He remains at large

32:36

to this day. Sister Rosenry

32:38

was now caring for hundreds of women and

32:40

children and she needed money to help do

32:43

that. I made an

32:45

announcement already that in San Buenka

32:47

we have a large space. You can

32:49

come for conferences, you can come for meetings,

32:51

we would rent a catering services for you.

32:54

One health teacher, he wanted

32:56

to run a conference for many teachers

32:59

in Gulu. This one worked in my

33:01

office and he told me, I want

33:03

to challenge you now. I want to bring

33:05

200 teachers here. Do

33:07

you think you can take care of them?

33:09

You can fit. I said yes, we can

33:12

do it. That helped me to start a

33:14

catering school. That catering school

33:16

is still there today. Sister

33:18

Rosenry reckons that over the years St

33:20

Monica's has helped thousands. I

33:22

saw some women, I didn't

33:25

recognize them. One woman came

33:27

to me, the sister was in San Buenka and

33:29

another one came, here I was with a young student

33:32

and I was saying, why are

33:34

you girls not getting old? I told them, I

33:36

say, I know why you are not looking

33:38

old and not worn out. It's because

33:40

you are making use of the skills

33:42

you learned. Sister

33:46

Rosenry Njurumbay was speaking to George

33:48

Craver. First

33:51

we're going to Portugal, where it's 50

33:53

years since what has become known as

33:55

the Carnation Revolution. That was

33:57

when Europe's longest surviving right wing authorities

34:00

regime was toppled in a single day

34:02

with barely a drop of blood spilled.

34:05

In 2010, Adelino Gomez told Luis

34:07

Hidalgo what he witnessed as those

34:09

events unfolded. ...Vila Moreno,

34:13

para de fraternita... Twenty

34:17

past midnight, on the 25th of April, 1974, and on

34:19

Portuguese radio, the

34:22

presenters reading out the first line of

34:24

a protest song, Grandula Vila Moreno, it's

34:27

a secret signal. A

34:29

coup by left-leaning army officers

34:31

against Portugal's authoritarian rulers has

34:34

begun. ...Vila

34:36

Moreno, para de

34:39

fraternita... Journalist Adelino Gomez had been

34:41

banned from broadcasting a few years

34:43

before after upsetting the

34:45

regime's censors. Now he worked for

34:48

an opposition magazine. That

34:50

morning, he was woken in the early hours.

34:53

...Vila Moreno, para de fraternita... But

35:25

it wasn't the police coming to arrest him. ...Vila

35:28

Moreno, para de fraternita... Journalist

35:33

Adelino Gomez told Luis Hidalgo

35:36

what he witnessed as those events. ...Vila Moreno, para

35:38

de fraternita... The

35:43

first announcement by the rebels on the

35:45

radio called on the inhabitants of Lisbon

35:47

to remain calm, ...and

35:50

no blood would be shed. But

35:52

Adelino Gomez was not going to miss this

35:54

day. He raced downtown to the

35:56

centre of the city and found in

35:58

the central square a battalion. of soldiers.

36:01

But who were they? Were they for the

36:03

regime or against it? The

36:05

first thing that I asked

36:07

to my colleague, the photographer, was,

36:10

do you know which side they

36:13

are? He answered me, no, I don't

36:15

know. But you can ask

36:17

to the captain commanding this

36:20

unit, Maya. Maya.

36:24

You know, I had a colleague with

36:27

that name, Maya, at school, some

36:30

12 years before. And

36:32

there he was, Maya,

36:34

the captain, the cavalry

36:37

captain. And I called

36:39

him. And my first question to Maya

36:41

was, to which side do you

36:43

belong? The answer was

36:45

another question for me. Was

36:48

not you who had some problems

36:50

some time ago, some problems

36:53

with the censorship in

36:55

Radio Naciansa. Well,

36:58

we are here in order

37:00

to provide to all of us the

37:03

right to think, to

37:05

speak, and to write whatever we

37:09

want. It was that

37:11

time, and till today, the

37:13

best, the first and the best

37:15

definition by commander

37:18

on the ground of the 25th

37:21

April revolution, the best

37:24

definition of what they were doing, the

37:27

most beautiful definition. And I asked

37:29

him what was going

37:31

on. And he told

37:33

me he had received orders to

37:35

take the unit to the National

37:38

Guard headquarters in Largo, some

37:40

two kilometers away, I think. It

37:44

was there that the prime minister of

37:46

the regime that had ruled Portugal since

37:48

the 1920s had taken refuge. His

37:50

name was Marcelo Cattano. Captain

37:53

Maya and his men were going to try to

37:55

arrest him. Because Cattano

37:57

was supposed to be there.

38:00

and it was necessary to arrest him. And

38:04

then I asked him if he could

38:06

allow reporters to join them and

38:10

he ordered an officer to give us

38:12

a vehicle. It was

38:14

like that embedded in

38:16

Maya's column that we covered the

38:19

next eight hours of confrontation. Adelino

38:22

had been lent a microphone and a tape

38:24

recorder by a colleague. Now the column of

38:26

soldiers with its embedded journalists set

38:28

off through a cheering crowd. People

38:36

shout victory, victory. Victory.

38:40

I remember two

38:43

men shouting two different and

38:45

politically opposite slogans when

38:49

shouting long live General Spinler

38:51

who should be the next

38:53

president. And another

38:55

one, a young man, shouting long

38:58

live the Portuguese Communist Party. I'm

39:00

a communist, communist. Each of them

39:04

were shouting his own slogans,

39:06

you understand, his own

39:08

feelings and thousands and thousands, I think four

39:11

or five thousand perhaps at that time. People

39:14

were just happy that the decades of repression

39:17

seemed finally over. It

39:19

was like that much,

39:21

that two kilometers much. It

39:24

was like a victory parade. So

39:28

Maya and the army forces movement were

39:30

far from winning. At last

39:33

the rebel column reached the National Guard headquarters

39:35

at the Carmel Barracks where Prime

39:37

Minister Kaitano was hiding. Captain

39:39

Maya sent a message inside demanding

39:42

his surrender and ordered warning shots

39:44

to be fired. In

39:52

front of the headquarters, all

39:55

the armored vehicles of Maya with

39:58

the guns pointed

40:00

to the main gates of the

40:03

headquarters. And Maya,

40:06

telling them to surrender, it was like

40:08

a performance. It seemed to be sometimes

40:11

a theater. As

40:13

the National Guard did not answer to

40:15

the ultimatums by Maya, and he made

40:18

two ultimatums, the

40:20

crowd shouted, Stannawara, Stannawara

40:22

means the hour

40:24

has come to surrender. But

40:26

they didn't surrender, and the standoff

40:29

continued. Until at last,

40:31

Keitano said he would surrender, but

40:33

only to one man, General Antonio

40:35

de Spinola, one of Portugal's most

40:38

decorated soldiers. So Spinola

40:40

was summoned, and in one

40:42

day, the Keitano regime had gone.

40:49

It was by seven o'clock in

40:51

the afternoon when an Amrit

40:53

vehicle came with the ministers and

40:56

Keitano, and it was the

40:58

moment of a plazism, people

41:00

happy. And me

41:03

to the microphone, I said, it's

41:05

the end of a regime. Hardly

41:08

a drop of blood had been shed,

41:10

and a flower, a carnation, in the

41:13

barrel of a soldier's gun, became the

41:15

abiding image of that day, the Carnation

41:17

Revolution. Adelino hurried

41:19

to his old radio station to give

41:22

them what he'd recorded, but news

41:24

of the regime's fall hadn't reached them,

41:26

and afraid of what would happen if they broadcast

41:29

it, they sent him away. Adelino

41:31

the journalist had done his job,

41:33

though, and now Adelino the citizen

41:35

could celebrate. People were

41:38

happy, embraced each other, the plodies.

41:40

Each time you saw a military

41:43

convoy, the soldiers for

41:45

us were the euros for the first time

41:47

since a long, long time. Adelino

41:51

Gomez was talking to Luis Hidalgo. Uprisings

41:54

of many kinds, some more violent

41:56

than others, pepper history, and you

41:58

can find first-hand accounts. from

42:00

many of them on our website.

42:02

Just go to bbcworldservice.com.com. Finally

42:06

this week, a child's eye view of events

42:08

at the beginning of the Second World War.

42:10

In August and September of 1939, tens

42:13

of thousands of children were evacuated from

42:15

Europe's major cities to protect them from

42:17

the threat of enemy bombs. Collette

42:20

Martel was transported from Paris and

42:22

she's been speaking to her granddaughter,

42:24

Caroline Lambeaulet, about how her life

42:27

changed. I especially

42:31

remember saying goodbye to my mother.

42:33

My dad wasn't there, he'd been

42:35

mobilized, so it was

42:37

just my mom. That was a

42:39

difficult moment really. It

42:42

was the girdly-on we'd taken the metro

42:44

to get there. I took comfort in

42:46

my sister, she became like a mother to

42:48

me. At the

42:50

platform, our mother told us, whatever you

42:53

do, don't get separated. Then we had to board the

42:56

train. We were a pack of girls

42:58

from the same class, the same

43:00

school. Collette, then nine years

43:03

old, and

43:07

her older sister, Solange, who was 11, were

43:10

evacuated as part of a government scheme

43:13

that aimed to protect the children of

43:15

Paris from the threat of German bombing.

43:18

Collette and Solange lived in a one-bedroom

43:20

council flat with their parents near the

43:22

Budselson Woods in eastern Paris. Up

43:25

until that autumn, they had hardly ever left

43:27

the city. Back then, we

43:29

wouldn't travel and go on holidays the

43:32

way people do now. No one

43:34

had a car, we had

43:36

been maybe twice to Normandy to visit

43:38

my grandmother. One time it was

43:40

for Christmas, it was

43:42

a one-off. They'd spend

43:45

weekends and holidays playing at the Budselson

43:47

Park with other girls from their building

43:49

and having picnics with the adults. Their

43:52

mom didn't work and their dad

43:55

worked at their uncle's factory making

43:57

painted metallic trays. though

44:00

battles wouldn't start for another eight months, in

44:03

September 1939 war felt imminent. As

44:34

they sat listening to the radio with their parents,

44:36

Colette and Sélange had no idea they were

44:38

about to leave the only home they'd ever

44:41

known. As the bus came

44:43

to a halt, Colette jumped up. She

44:53

thought they'd arrived in another town,

44:55

Sèvignes-sur-Roche, a wealthy suburb just outside

44:57

Paris, where their uncle's brother lived. I

45:01

stood up in the bus and said, we

45:03

know people in Sèvignes. My sister

45:05

pulled me by my jacket, sit back

45:08

down. You know very well we can't

45:10

go to rich people's homes. They

45:14

were told to get off the bus. They

45:17

put all us girls in the

45:19

school quarter because back then you

45:21

didn't mix girls and boys, so

45:24

there was separate bus for boys. They

45:27

opened the big gate. They were the teachers.

45:30

They were very welcoming, and

45:32

the people from the area came to

45:34

get us, devoting

45:36

themselves to taking a Parisian

45:38

child. The

45:41

school courtyard was pretty big. We'd take

45:44

a shelter and throw some trees, and

45:46

then we were asked to come forward.

45:49

As a little girl, I was a brunette, my

45:52

hair was nasty cut, nice and

45:54

wavy, with a part in the middle and

45:57

two little white bows on top to hold

45:59

it together. People would say,

46:01

oh, I want the little one

46:03

with the white bow. And

46:05

I would say, oh no, please, I have

46:08

a sister. Collette

46:11

and Solange were the last ones standing in

46:14

the courtyard. Eventually, a woman named Marie Toulais

46:16

agreed to take them both. Marie

46:19

lived on a farm in the middle of

46:21

a forest. She already had six boys and

46:23

an adopted girl from Poland,

46:25

Maria. We walked

46:28

all those kilometers. And

46:30

when we arrived at the farm, it

46:32

was September with harvest time. The

46:35

owner of this lady's husband, Francois

46:37

Toulais, very kind, very pleasant man.

46:39

He was perched on a ladder,

46:41

bringing in the bells of hay. He

46:44

turned around, looked over, and told his

46:46

wife, this time you have completely lost

46:48

it. I told you one girl, not

46:51

two. Maria,

46:55

the Polish girl, stepped in and begged

46:57

him to let them stay. She

46:59

wanted sisters. You

47:02

could almost say it was Maria who chose us.

47:05

It ended very, very well. He

47:07

got down from his ladder and told us,

47:09

call me Papa Francois. Collette

47:14

and Solange spent around a year with the

47:16

Toulais. They lived in a

47:18

narrow, one-story farmhouse. It was split

47:21

into two rooms. Marie and Francois

47:23

and all the children except for two, slept

47:25

in one room. The other two

47:27

slept in the dining room. Collette and

47:29

Solange settled into their new routine and

47:31

started going to school. We

47:34

had a teacher just for us. It

47:36

was the refugee class. That's the

47:38

title we were given. We didn't

47:40

really understand why. The

47:43

only thing that really bothered us is that

47:45

all these people wore clocks, always

47:48

clocks, with little slippers inside.

47:51

My sister and I were very unhappy

47:53

because we had Parisian shoes. That

47:57

Christmas, the Toulais gave Collette and Solange a

47:59

gift. their own pairs of

48:02

wooden clocks. That

48:04

was a moment of great joy. She

48:07

was dumped to the house over

48:09

the Tefl stones and in the co-hotier. Finally,

48:12

we were like everyone else. Back

48:15

in Paris, times were tough. Collette's

48:18

dad Louis had been called up to fight by the

48:20

French army and sent to defend the border. With

48:23

Collette and Solange being cared for in the countryside, their

48:26

mom Marcel was able to start working and earn

48:28

some extra cash. She

48:30

was hired to make the packaging for

48:32

packages that

48:36

were sent to prisoners or people who had

48:38

been wounded in the war. Their mom visited them just

48:40

once during that year they spent with the Tule. She'd

48:43

gotten a call and was told to come urgently because

48:46

Collette was in the hospital. One

48:49

day, on the way back from school, I

48:52

collapsed in the forest from an appendicitis

48:54

attack. It was

48:57

brutal, very strong. The

48:59

other children, there were seven or eight of

49:01

us coming back from school. They carried my

49:04

backpack. By the end of

49:06

it, each one was taking turns, carrying

49:08

me in their arms. For

49:11

two days, Collette stayed by the fireplace. She

49:14

was running a high fever, more

49:16

than 40 degrees. The teacher

49:19

who noticed I wasn't at

49:21

school the next day came

49:23

over. He came

49:25

here? Where are you, two little ones?

49:28

Oh my, but she's sick. She had

49:30

a fever. I was

49:32

delicious and I'd already been seeing the

49:35

parsees for an entire day. The

49:37

teacher was in the

49:40

hospital. She was

49:42

in the hospital. She was

49:44

in the hospital. She was

49:47

in the hospital. Her

49:53

appendix had birthed and she developed

49:55

peritonitis, an infection in the abdomen.

50:00

order of 40, two teachers said, you've

50:02

got to find a doctor straight away.

50:04

But there was only one doctor for

50:06

a 50-kilometer radius. Eventually,

50:09

one kid, he said, it's urgent. You

50:13

must get her to a hospital. I

50:16

left around midnight because there were no

50:18

cars. People didn't have any petrol and

50:20

horse-drawn carriages were not good at night.

50:23

She had surgery and would spend a

50:26

whole month in hospital and two more

50:28

months bedridden. After about a year with the

50:30

Toulet, Collette and Slange went back home.

50:33

France had surrendered to Germany and the north

50:35

was now occupied. Collette spent the rest of

50:37

the war between Paris and Normandy. She

50:40

went on to become a seamstress and then

50:42

an accountant. Collette still lives in

50:44

Paris. She just turned 93. Carolyn

50:47

Lambeaulet was speaking to her own grandmother

50:49

Collette Martel, as she recalled being an

50:52

evacuee from Paris at the start of

50:54

the Second World War. Her

50:56

story will be added to our comprehensive

50:58

collection of stories from that conflict on

51:00

the website. It's really well worth diving

51:02

into if you get a chance. Find

51:04

it by searching for bbcworldservice.com. I

51:09

hope you'll join us again next week when the

51:12

History Hour podcast returns. But for now,

51:14

this is Max Pearson from all of us here. Thanks

51:16

for listening. Goodbye. From

51:19

the brilliant and bizarre. It's really surreal.

51:21

It's a surreal atmosphere. You couldn't really

51:23

see anybody. To the shocking and unexpected.

51:26

I'm just wondering what are we going

51:28

to do now? This was really my

51:30

worst fear. He found 100% horse

51:33

meat that was labeled as beef. Witness

51:35

the stories that have shaped our world,

51:38

hold by the people he was there.

51:41

When he went to the factory, the poodle went

51:43

in front of him. So the workers are near all of

51:45

the bosses here. Many people had

51:47

many things to lose by our vision.

51:50

The future was not so bright. Witness

51:53

history. We had a

51:56

designer who bought a fully

51:58

storyboard idea about. how

52:00

the queen would arrive by

52:02

jumping out of a helicopter.

52:04

And we all said, that's

52:06

brilliant, but it's never gonna

52:08

happen. Witness History at bbcworldservice.com/Witness

52:10

History, or wherever you get

52:12

your podcasts. It

52:15

all started with me asking my friends

52:17

and family to write letters to my

52:20

daughter, Coco, sharing their experiences and giving

52:22

her advice for her life ahead. The

52:24

idea blossomed into dear daughter from

52:27

the BBC World Service, a

52:29

podcast where, with the help of your

52:31

letters, I'm creating a handbook to life

52:33

full of advice for daughters everywhere. Listen

52:36

now by searching for dear daughter, wherever

52:39

you get your BBC podcasts.

52:41

Grand daughter.