0:01

As a long time Foreign correspondent,

0:04

I've worked in lots of places,

0:06

but nowhere is important to the

0:08

world as China. I'm Jane Perlez

0:10

former Beijing Bureau Chief for the

0:13

New York Times. Join me on

0:15

my new podcast, Face Off Us

0:17

vs China where I'll take you

0:20

behind the scenes in the tumultuous

0:22

Us China relationship find Face Off

0:24

wherever you get your podcasts. Hello

0:37

and welcome to a History of

0:39

Egypt podcast Interview. My. Guest

0:41

today is Lloyd Llewellyn Jones

0:44

professor of Ancient History at

0:46

the University of Cardiff in

0:48

Wales. Professor. Llewellyn Jones

0:50

joins us today to discuss

0:53

his new book. The Cleopatra's

0:55

The Forgotten Queens of Egypt.

0:57

The world knows the name

1:00

Cleopatra thanks to the exploits

1:02

and achievements of Cleopatra the

1:04

Seventh, the last Queen/pharaoh of

1:07

Egypt. Far. Fewer

1:09

people know that Cleopatra is,

1:11

well, the seventh and met

1:13

before her. There was a

1:15

whole line of accomplished influential

1:17

women bearing that name. Professor.

1:20

Llewellyn Jones has previously specialized

1:22

in the social and political

1:24

history of Ancient Greece and

1:27

of Persia. His. Published works

1:29

include articles and books in

1:31

those fields and also in

1:33

Hollywood portrayals of the ancient

1:35

world. For. Enthusiasts of the

1:37

Hellenistic Era, the Age of Alexander

1:40

the Great and his successors, Professor

1:42

Llewellyn Jones, acted as the costume

1:45

consultant for the Two Thousand and

1:47

Four film Alexander a personal favorite

1:49

of mine, As you'll

1:52

see in this interview, Professor

1:54

Llewellyn Jones is knowledgeable and

1:56

enthusiastic, with a knack for

1:58

making complicated histories. Far more

2:01

accessible, it's a great conversation and

2:03

I think you'll enjoy it. The

2:07

music for this episode as by

2:10

Michael Levy from his album an

2:12

Ancient Liar and as includes pieces

2:14

on Ancient Greek melodies from the

2:16

second and first centuries bc a.

2:19

My thanks to my Go for allowing me to

2:21

use his music. If you enjoyed it, you can

2:23

find it on his Went. And

2:25

the. Now. That

2:28

let's begin the interview. In.

2:37

Part One Way to introduce the

2:39

Cleopatra's as a group. Where. Did

2:41

they come from? What role did

2:44

they play as queens of a

2:46

Greek household rolling Egypt? And how

2:48

did they deal with their complicated

2:51

family politics? Professor. Llewellyn

2:53

Jones takes us through

2:55

international weddings, family dynamics,

2:57

and political conflict. Let's

3:00

begin. Hello! Professor of Alan

3:02

Jones How are you? I'm.

3:04

Very good. Thank you very much indeed. Guess thank

3:06

you for joining the History of A to podcasts.

3:08

I think it's gonna be honest the if I

3:11

think vegetation it. Thank. You know I'm

3:13

willing to us from Cod of at the

3:15

moment. Is that correct? A priceless rights from

3:17

wet and windy Wales? How and haven't I've

3:19

sprained? Yeah, Yes. For and how is life

3:21

and Cod at the moments? Oh,

3:24

it's so it's pretty frantic. It's always busy

3:26

I'm I'm glad to stave off to Turkey

3:28

at few days time to do some touring.

3:30

Know so the robot sites last I'm looking

3:32

for? it's it's a lot that wrote a

3:35

changer for a change of space is as

3:37

good as any. figure. this of us how

3:39

exciting. So light for most of my lesson

3:41

as they might know your best as a.

3:44

Scholar. Primarily as a Persian carry

3:46

At first and foremost, that and I

3:48

was your major research specialty, and that's

3:50

where a lot of your earlier publications

3:53

have focused on. Sites.

3:55

Both the first question is

3:57

what brought you from Persia

3:59

and. The down to the Nile Valley.

4:01

There. Were two explanations I suppose the

4:04

first one is to do with my

4:06

research because I have worked on. The.

4:08

Hellenistic World's for quite some time have

4:10

been. It's been. A quieter sort

4:13

of subset I suppose of my work

4:15

on Persia. But. I publish books

4:17

on E Bay really had it just

4:19

appeared on the Hellenistic courts on the

4:21

clear in the several of the Cleopatra's

4:23

already. So these kind of course, societies

4:25

of the kind of legacy of the

4:28

Persian world supposed has always been an

4:30

interest to me. But. I suppose

4:32

when it comes to Egypt per se,

4:34

when I like many. Ancient

4:36

Historians my first So. The.

4:39

Dive into ancient history when I was

4:41

in my late teens or throw my

4:43

twenties was actually to do Egyptology. Now

4:46

nice in I studied a hieroglyphs you

4:48

know, via the old gardeners grammar yeah,

4:50

console of that on so we know

4:52

I've I've always been really interested in

4:55

Egypt. And I hope that I

4:57

can return to Egypt do some more

4:59

in the future as well because you

5:01

know if it's a rich field and

5:03

I think there are many areas that

5:06

still a not covered on. I'm particularly

5:08

interested in gender and also called society

5:10

so I hope I can ask you

5:12

to successes it basically those two things

5:14

and of love of Egypt's initially I

5:16

would just stayed with me and more

5:19

recent been other the kind of academic

5:21

work out between of the hellenistic moves

5:23

in particular. Next. On and I

5:25

guess to zero in on that specific I

5:27

you know you mentioned tender and so many

5:29

of your articles and previous publications have focused

5:32

on these thinkers. And this

5:34

book as focus very specifically on

5:36

a particular name or particular category

5:38

of name. Which is that Cleopatra's

5:40

Yeah, So what was the initial

5:43

spot for this particular focus? Wells.

5:46

Several things began. The first is.

5:48

There's. Been a vogue within

5:50

scholarship in the last fifteen

5:53

years to concentrate on the

5:55

Hellenistic royal women. Off.

5:57

The Ptolemaic House in particular that

6:00

in the first four generations of

6:02

the ptolemy it's so we've had

6:04

really, very fine studies. Acid

6:06

are we the second? Barry Nike the second.

6:09

These kind of our early Ptolemaic queens. And

6:11

then of course we have to jump right

6:13

to the end to the dentist. A to

6:15

Cleopatra. The service. On. I've always

6:17

been fascinated by these what happens

6:19

to the Hellenistic World. In

6:22

the second than the first

6:24

centuries and traditionally. Historians

6:26

have seen a kind of

6:28

decline and fall or scenarios

6:30

slide into decadence. Back kind

6:32

of rhetoric has gone on.

6:35

But. I'm never. Convince

6:37

by that sort of reading on.

6:39

In fact, when I worked with

6:41

a colleague, Alex Mccauley. On. A

6:43

joint book request on After The Third

6:46

and Cleopatra cf. We. Decided to

6:48

name the second and out the

6:50

snow. Second and first century's a

6:52

high hellenistic period. Because. In fact,

6:54

what happens in up here it is

6:56

all of the things that we consider

6:58

to be Hellenistic Rich on a really

7:00

so. It's not a Pope moment of

7:02

declaring the talks, but it's actually moment

7:04

of codifications. On. A just so happens

7:07

within that period. These. Seven

7:09

remarkable women. Who. Are

7:11

ruling Egypt step out of the sources

7:13

on I thought would these women really

7:16

need to be look that's because they

7:18

haven't we? A proper scholarly

7:20

treatments in about thirty years. And

7:23

they barely touched the surface

7:25

of most people's knowledge of

7:27

antiquity. It's not even the

7:29

keenest Egyptologists know much about

7:31

the Cleopatra's on, so I

7:33

thought it's a good thing

7:35

to bring them back into

7:37

the public sphere again. I

7:40

should say they were given a very brief I would say. And

7:42

I think he was nineteen eighty three. When.

7:44

The B B C created a

7:47

follow up. Really wanted to sort

7:49

of capitalize on the success of

7:51

I Claudius. Remember the Tv show

7:54

on it made an eight part

7:56

serious series called the Cleopatra's on.

7:58

It was pretty. The by

8:00

everybody because they were people.

8:02

Couldn't actually believes that the

8:04

events of the drama were

8:06

historical because they are so.

8:09

Outrageous. So much com.

8:12

A such a kind of grown in your spectacle

8:14

around what happens to these women and i think

8:16

know bbc be to is just switched off their

8:18

sex. I couldn't believe what was going on. But.

8:21

I remember watching it and I loved

8:23

it and Infected and the whole series

8:25

is still available on you tube. I

8:27

recommend your listeners to go and have

8:29

a have a watch and because actually

8:31

everything you see that. Is pretty

8:34

pretty accurate in terms of

8:36

the narrative. So that

8:38

they always had a flurry

8:40

into popular culture that they've

8:42

ever really enjoys. So it's

8:44

time to get them. Center.

8:47

Stage again Mariner Thera. The.

8:49

Ptolemy definitely our a family where. The.

8:51

Truth is stranger than fiction, isn't It

8:53

Gets really, is absolutely absolutely. And that's

8:55

why I love about history, though. Sometimes.

8:58

You know, why bother to

9:00

invent new story lines? Because

9:02

history unload. Has got everything

9:04

you could possibly wants as rely on that

9:07

to them. I. Often wonder

9:09

how much of same Game of

9:11

Thrones has crept from Ptolemaic history

9:13

because some of those events are.

9:15

Straight. Out of the or are they

9:18

really off know there's been a focus

9:20

their say that Game of Thrones. what

9:22

was really sort of based on the

9:24

Walls of the Roses about know I

9:26

think some of the machinations the go

9:28

on there are special especially since I

9:30

do. They begin Cesspool teeth that runs

9:32

through cable phones have enough purely Ptolemaic

9:34

you couldn't find that's in any Shakespeare

9:36

history. Certainly. Absolutely. While

9:38

speaking of, you mention that sort of

9:40

revival in scholarship politically around some of

9:42

these women at least the earlier Elliott

9:44

Gordon, although that that may be happening

9:47

in the more academic around rather than

9:49

simply out the public So much so

9:51

for the benefit of my listeners. Could.

9:53

You give us a brief introduction to

9:56

what are the major sources for this

9:58

high Hellenistic period. Both greg. Roman.

10:00

I'm Hellenistic specifically, but also from Egypt

10:02

itself. You know, whatever. I'm yeah Jeff.

10:05

Major pillars of reference here. Certainly

10:07

when I think by and large

10:09

people have steered away from studying

10:12

the how to disappear because there's

10:14

not a kind of convenient go

10:16

to text. so first student so

10:18

I'm classical Greek store history for

10:21

instance, know you've got a rotted

10:23

acidity Santa for least celebrates of

10:25

of historiography. One. Nothing really

10:27

like that survives from the have it

10:29

is to period so you have to

10:32

use a very very diverse range. Of

10:35

materials and because we dealing with

10:37

a world. Where. The Greeks

10:39

are basically extending. Their

10:43

reach into all these old

10:45

established civilizations around the Mediterranean

10:48

Sea and beyond. Then.

10:50

It means a course that we also

10:52

have to deal with multiple languages as

10:54

well, and that's a big ask for

10:56

anybody to do. So. In

10:59

doing this book alone, for instance,

11:01

besides my previous work, I've had

11:03

to work with Egyptian tax both

11:06

hieroglyphs ptolemaic i was so lethal

11:08

injection as well as demotic hereafter

11:10

the. Greeks. Not

11:12

classical Greek coined a Greek which

11:15

is the kind of popular Greek

11:17

of the second century bc. He

11:19

also little bits of last in

11:21

the coolest because some of our

11:23

Latin sources report machinists as well

11:25

as Aramaic cuneiform. So anybody. Trying.

11:28

To specialize in the haven't to world

11:30

as to be polls. And.

11:33

Stretch that abilities to the limit. Really?

11:35

I'm glad that are Lots of people

11:37

are doing some really great philologists to

11:39

taking on some of these challenges. And

11:41

besides that of course then you have

11:43

to be familiar with. The. Arts

11:45

and the Architecture of the archaeology.

11:48

I'm of the period as well

11:50

because. We. Need all of

11:52

these things and all Fight club

11:54

pieces of this huge jigsaw of

11:56

this period. What can be achieved

11:59

by bringing all of us very

12:01

the spirit sources together is actually

12:03

a very thrilling experience. What?

12:05

I really love about working on this

12:08

period. The late hour makes a high

12:10

as it is to clear it is

12:12

a really truly is the diversity of

12:14

material such have to deal with. So

12:16

it's everything from. Tax

12:18

receipts. Personal letters,

12:21

Documents On a stronger. Imperial.

12:25

Royal inscriptions in both

12:27

Greek and in a

12:29

hieroglyphics religious texts wills.

12:32

Recipes. Everything I mean, you name

12:34

it I. It's been thrown at me during

12:37

the research of this but it's been really

12:39

fantastic because I feel as a you get

12:41

very very close to the people. Who.

12:44

Wrote these things are crafted. They

12:46

sit. And one thing that I do,

12:48

but I can appreciate about the book is that you

12:50

do provide a very robust. Set of

12:52

references at the and not just

12:54

a bibliography, but. Are broken

12:56

down by subject and sculpture and so

12:58

us even down to individual names of

13:00

you want to learn about. Ptolemy has

13:02

the Levy reference or he has the

13:05

area are the highest. I thought it

13:07

important because I really hope is that

13:09

this buckley heritage others to go and

13:11

look at this period you know especially

13:13

the Egyptologists among because the Ptolemaic period

13:15

is such an important one. For

13:17

the preservation of. Ironic

13:20

culture if nothing else. When we

13:22

go down along by cruises today

13:24

so many of the the temples

13:26

and sites that we enjoy our

13:28

because all images instructions so we

13:30

have to give them a notes.

13:33

For their preservation of the for on the

13:35

past. So yes I would say your listeners

13:37

don't be afraid of the Ptolemy as they

13:39

all your friends and I hope that scene

13:41

of the references you find it will be

13:43

of use. They weren't

13:45

each other's friends, but they are. Our

13:48

friends are now half an hour and

13:50

a some. Okay, well. Let's. Begin

13:52

with the more details historical

13:54

discussion. Then one thing that

13:56

I particularly enjoyed coming that

13:59

came across the book was.

14:01

You. Place a particular emphasis right from

14:03

a stop at frequently throughout. An.

14:06

Emphasis on a how visible

14:08

the Cleopatra's ah as a

14:10

tool of diplomacy uniting the

14:12

Ptolemaic and so look at

14:14

households. And obviously I'm not a

14:17

hellenistic historians of as is not something I

14:19

had thought about mean any particular detail. But.

14:21

They are the two major. Political

14:23

dynasties of the reason men. Then you

14:25

also have the one up in Macedonia

14:28

itself. So you have you could touch

14:30

on briefly. Where do that Cleopatra's of

14:32

Egypt come from? Where does the first

14:34

one come from? And then how does

14:37

that role as sort of. Political.

14:39

Bargaining Chips Carry on for their

14:41

story. The A sober the

14:43

time the the book begins in the

14:45

second century. the kind of political. Overview

14:48

of the Hellenistic world is essentially in

14:51

the south in Egypt and stretching across

14:53

North Africa, a little pockets of islands

14:55

like De Los in the Mediterranean, the

14:57

Aegean we have the Ptolemaic and En.

15:00

Route. From Alexandria but also with

15:02

a strong power base in the

15:04

sea bite in the area of

15:06

Upper Egypt as well. On it's

15:08

great rival really is to the

15:10

east and that's the solution to

15:12

the states and the saluted kings

15:14

or the as essentially of. The.

15:16

Persians who came before them and

15:19

so that main area of rule

15:21

is the is the Levant stretching

15:23

the from Israel, Palestine right the

15:26

way up to Syria and then

15:28

inland. Into. Modern

15:30

day Iraq easily pushing towards

15:33

the borders of Iran as

15:35

well. That. Empire was

15:37

in a constant state of

15:39

flux, printing and expanding according

15:41

to the activities of the

15:43

salute his enemies in the

15:45

east. The path the hands

15:47

on this person on Tennessee

15:49

who had ambitions of territorial

15:51

expansion of their own. The.

15:53

Way which the salukis in the

15:56

Ptolemy is interacted. I had for

15:58

at least two hundred years. Been.

16:00

On basically a kind of a read a

16:03

little. All of the time. There. Were

16:05

constance border skirmishes? usually attacks

16:07

around about Palooza, which was

16:09

the city that sat on

16:11

sort of border between Egypt

16:13

and the saluted round. But.

16:15

In particular, both sides were

16:18

fighting for a very, very

16:20

fertile area of man. Called.

16:23

Toys Syria. Is

16:25

how they knew it. We today

16:27

would call it the back of

16:29

valley in Lebanon. Very very rich,

16:31

fertile land and therefore worth a

16:34

lot of money and constantly. Our

16:36

make sorrows were invading sleep. It's

16:38

plans to unaudited to grab this

16:41

area in modern day Lebanon and

16:43

a sloop. It's grabby fact. And

16:46

by the time we get sued the

16:48

beginning of the book we've already has

16:50

six was in serious experience was that.

16:53

Oh, and it looks as though with

16:55

more we're going to continue because who

16:57

was ruling? In the city

16:59

Kingdom at the time was probably

17:02

the greatest. Warlords,

17:04

Of the whole hellenistic

17:06

period. And. That's Antiochus the

17:09

third. Antiochus even took

17:11

the Monica the Great during his

17:13

lifetime. I mean, he really did

17:15

bottle himself on Alexander and he

17:17

was from interval in his conquests.

17:20

Bats p was also getting tired

17:22

of these kind of border skirmishes

17:24

with Egypt. And want a

17:26

sort of consolidate his rule elsewhere.

17:29

I'm rather than taking up all this energy

17:31

and all of of his finances Missy's constant

17:33

squabbles for the Egypt he decided to see

17:36

if you could settle a piece at all.

17:38

And of course what he did was what

17:40

all kings, not history of done. He.

17:42

Turns to the figures of his daughters

17:44

to see how he could married of

17:47

off to make alliances. He had at

17:49

least four daughters. Of. The one

17:51

who is interesting to us is the

17:53

third of his daughters and her name

17:55

is Cleopatra. That's the first time

17:57

we have this name. In the

17:59

Highlands. Period. House.

18:02

The. Life Of Alexander The Great Because

18:04

Alexander the Great sister. Was. Called

18:06

Cleopatra on I think that gave the

18:08

name a kind of to das. My.

18:11

Dignity amongst the hellenistic

18:13

diners. So. This Cleopatra

18:15

Cleopatra The first weekend. Call

18:17

her. Is be troth

18:19

to a Pharaoh Ptolemy the Fish.

18:21

He's a little bit younger than

18:23

her, probably about ten years younger

18:26

than her and she is shipped

18:28

off to Alexandria. With. A huge

18:30

retinue, a great deal of wealth

18:32

as a a dowry. They married

18:34

in Alexandria and she becomes the

18:36

Queen of Egypt. I was really

18:38

remarkable about this woman is that in a

18:40

she knew nothing of she didn't know her husband

18:42

it's all she do nothing of this land but

18:44

she learns very very quickly and in fact

18:46

she became. Much. Loved by

18:49

the Egyptians and they provide her

18:51

with a nickname is a corner

18:53

Syrah. Which. Means the Syrian. So

18:55

for them she was always Cleopatra

18:57

Syrah on from there on. A

18:59

really Cleopatra as a name. Becomes.

19:02

The domestic named par excellence.

19:05

All. The other women.

19:07

Of the royal family because she kind

19:09

of set some mobile. For. What

19:12

good queen ship! Could. Be.

19:14

On how she does, that is in

19:16

diverse ways. First of all, she. Doesn't.

19:19

Meddle in political affairs,

19:22

and she certainly has.

19:25

Had no intention of trying to

19:27

do her father's dirty work on.

19:29

I think that when she first

19:31

arrived in Alexandria, The. Alexandria courtiers

19:33

were very suspicious of and I'll surely

19:36

this woman has been a coming and

19:38

she's gonna bring you know Antiochus his

19:40

policies and before we know it will

19:42

all be salute kids But she never

19:44

did that. She was incredibly loyal. To

19:47

her husband. To such an

19:49

extent that about fifteen years

19:51

into their marriage. He

19:53

gave her an honorific title.

19:56

And we see this utilized

19:58

in the inscriptions and hieroglyphs

20:00

in where he calls her

20:02

his beloved sister. And

20:05

that's very important thing for the

20:07

Ptolemy stressed or local sister can

20:09

be just beloved and in Egyptian

20:11

context as as you'll know Bashir.

20:13

Be. Application Of Sisters Senate.

20:16

In. Egyptian. In Greek it's

20:18

Adelphi so that the it is actually

20:20

know a blood sisters was meant to

20:23

be. So she's made an honorary Ptolemy

20:25

if you like. This. Is

20:27

very important to them because. The.

20:29

First generations of Ptolemy. He's.

20:32

Had practiced brother, sister

20:34

marriage. Sir Ptolemy the second

20:36

had taken his full sister Austin or

20:38

We the second does wife. More.

20:41

Recently, Ptolemy the third

20:43

had taken his sister.

20:45

Arsenault economy forth back and his

20:48

sister Athena we the third housewife

20:50

and really, Ptolemy the fifth. Only

20:53

kind of consented to the marriage

20:55

with Cleopatra siren. Because. He didn't

20:57

have a sister to marry. On

20:59

So this is why in a

21:01

way he takes on Antiochus his

21:03

proposal up and brings in this

21:05

absolutely princess. So. Hearts

21:08

and the people of Egypt take it off

21:10

as he promotes to this honorary title of

21:12

sister. A not mean safe for

21:15

that they can kind of. Activates.

21:18

A very important pieces

21:20

Egyptians theology. And that

21:22

is they can play the roles

21:25

of Isis the Cyrus because of

21:27

course as you know Isis and

21:30

Osiris would have brother, sister and

21:32

husband wife. And because. Children.

21:35

Or risk as well. So this

21:37

way they played two feet. Way

21:39

in the Ptolemy Smith Said thing

21:41

to Egypt semis themselves. I mean,

21:43

case that sort of backfired on.

21:46

Amongst the Greek speaking subjects

21:48

living in Alexandria, the Nile

21:51

Delta. Well. They could also

21:53

justify this union. his brother, sister.

21:55

By. Saying of course that in the Greek

21:58

pantheon. zeus was

22:00

also married to his sister, the

22:02

goddess Hera. So there was

22:04

this kind of double speak that

22:06

was going on in a theological

22:08

setting, which really made and strengthened

22:11

the Ptolemy's position as monarchs

22:14

of Egypt. And

22:16

actually when Ptolemy the

22:18

fifth died, Cleopatra

22:20

the first became a

22:23

regent for her elder son,

22:25

Ptolemy the sixth. And the first

22:27

thing she did in what

22:29

was going to be her will, she died

22:32

shortly afterwards, but her will was implemented,

22:34

was to make sure that her

22:37

son married his full-blood

22:39

sister, Cleopatra the second.

22:41

So she makes sure that

22:43

this Egyptian, this

22:45

pharaonic style of

22:48

union was probably

22:50

embedded within the

22:52

politics and the religious

22:54

philosophy of the royal house.

22:57

I don't, I think maybe the

23:00

Ptolemies were a little bit blindsided

23:04

by their knowledge of Egyptian history because we

23:06

know that not every pharaon, far

23:08

from marriage, you know, a

23:10

sister or let alone our children. But

23:12

of course it did happen, Ahmaud Ramesses

23:14

II for instance, but it wasn't as

23:16

popular as I think the Ptolemies thought

23:19

it was, they thought they were doing

23:21

the standard pharaonic thing by

23:23

continuing this practice. And it worked

23:25

extremely well for them in

23:27

these kind of propagandistic theological

23:30

terms. So

23:44

we have introduced the Cleopatras

23:46

as Queens of Egypt. But

23:48

of course they were not Egyptian

23:51

in the hereditary or family lineage

23:53

sense. How did the

23:55

people of Egypt living under a

23:57

Greek royal house react to this

23:59

new Kingdom, Professor Llewellyn

24:01

Jones explains. Then we

24:04

explore the role of a

24:06

Cleopatra who ruled outside of

24:08

Egypt, a remarkable

24:10

tale of international diplomacy,

24:12

political acumen, and imperial

24:14

ambitions. So

24:23

building on from that, you know, we talk about

24:25

them Egyptianizing to a

24:27

certain degree, presumably to

24:30

increase their legitimacy as a, as

24:32

you've partly termed in the book, a sort

24:34

of colonialist government that treats Egypt

24:37

as a sort of a territory that

24:39

is the spoils of war almost, essentially

24:41

the whole country just ripe for exploitation.

24:45

But of course, this Egyptianizing

24:47

approach is not entirely successful. And we

24:49

do have the very famous incident

24:51

that you discuss at some length in the book,

24:53

which is the Theban Rebellion, and

24:55

the texts that emerge

24:57

around this time, really

25:01

rejecting the idea of foreign rule

25:03

in very explicit terms. Can

25:05

you tell us a little bit more

25:07

about this and that in terms of

25:09

what it represents, particularly for the Ptolemaic

25:11

dynasty as a whole, and perhaps for

25:13

Cleopatra, Sera specifically, what does the Theban

25:15

Rebellion achieve and what does

25:18

it really represent and what's its lasting impact?

25:20

Certainly. Well, we must remember

25:23

that right the way

25:25

through the 300 years of

25:27

the Ptolemaic rule of Egypt, Egypt

25:30

is essentially two areas. There

25:32

was Alexandria, which was

25:35

almost completely Hellenic, and

25:38

the Nile Delta, which was mainly settled

25:40

by Greeks who had been given land

25:43

and monetary incentives

25:46

by the Ptolemaic kings to settle there. And

25:49

they came from all over the Greek-speaking world.

25:51

But if you push down

25:53

basically beyond a suit down

25:55

to Aswan, that was still

25:58

the heart of Egypt. was

26:00

very much Egypt for the Egyptians there. And

26:02

even though the Ptolemies tried to impose

26:06

a kind of Greek sense of being

26:09

there, they built, for instance,

26:11

a city called Potolomace, and

26:13

some 50 miles north of Thebes

26:15

of Luxor, the Greekness

26:17

never really took off. The

26:19

other thing that we can see operating,

26:21

and this is where the demotic and

26:24

hieratic evidence becomes so important, is

26:27

that we can see the discrimination

26:30

that many Egyptian families had to

26:32

cope with during the

26:34

Ptolemaic period. So for

26:36

instance, they were taxed heavier

26:38

than any Greeks. Their

26:41

lands could be taken away from

26:43

them. Sometimes their lands that had been in

26:45

the family for generations could be

26:47

taken away and given to Greek settlers instead.

26:52

There were discrepancies in

26:54

individual rights, and

26:57

of course, the whole

26:59

bureaucracy of Ptolemaic Egypt

27:01

functions through the language of Greek.

27:04

So if you weren't a Greek speaker, straight

27:06

away really, you were barred from

27:08

certain things. Think of the way

27:10

in which Britain operated in

27:13

India in the late 19th

27:15

and early 20th centuries, and I think there

27:17

are some parallels that we can see there.

27:19

So kind of not surprisingly really, in

27:22

the fourth or fifth

27:24

generation of Ptolemaic rule, there

27:26

became an increasing kind of liberation

27:29

move going on amongst the

27:31

population of the Thebides. Probably

27:35

endorsed by some of the priesthoods

27:37

as well. Don't forget, the temples

27:39

were really the powerhouses of Upper

27:41

Egypt. They always had been, of

27:43

course, they were where

27:45

the wealth was stored. We can't

27:47

really tell how much some

27:50

of these popular movements were

27:53

supported by the temples, but I get

27:55

a feeling, I can see their fingerprints

27:57

on a lot of the hapilis. The

28:00

reign of Ptolemy to stress and Cleopatra

28:02

Syrah. We. Get the biggest

28:04

rebel you did seats which loss

28:06

for some twenty years almost during

28:09

which time. The. Ptolemaic.

28:11

Governance of Upper Egypt simply ceases

28:13

to operate so there are no

28:15

taxes pouring into Alexandria Us. I

28:17

mean, people are. There's a lot

28:19

of. There's.

28:21

The as user putting who

28:23

has it name's himself. traditional

28:25

Gibson names. And. There

28:27

is a lot of fighting that

28:30

takes place of around seeps around

28:32

out com write them down to

28:34

a swan. When. Greek troops

28:36

are sent in on regular rotation

28:38

supply to to quell the uprising.

28:41

Eventually. Of course it is quelled and

28:43

and things do com dog. But. We're

28:45

left to the really interesting literary

28:47

heritage I'm from. this great Fee

28:50

But Uprising where we have these

28:52

kind of. Chronicles.

28:54

And so called oracles purportedly written

28:56

in the past in the days

28:58

of Amenhotep the third and so

29:00

forth but actually of cause really

29:02

be in Britain of the time

29:04

of the rebellion when you really

29:06

get a sense of why. The.

29:08

Egyptians didn't like the Greeks and how

29:10

they responded to recruit island or read

29:12

you are a little bit of what

29:14

if I made this is known as

29:16

the Demotic Chronicle lower risk kind of

29:18

oracle really on it's certainly dates to

29:20

to this period is has that kind

29:22

of ring to it to sort of

29:24

The Book of Daniel in the Hebrew

29:26

Bible is back as a cop apocalyptic

29:28

kind of literature and them sir goes

29:30

something like this. They. Are foreigners?

29:33

Ah see of our land a

29:35

full of tears. Time. Will

29:37

bring them the foreigners. The. Egyptians

29:39

or robert people have fallen

29:41

in slaughter. They are coming to

29:44

Egypt. They are foreigners on the east and

29:46

they are foreigners on the west of the

29:48

land. They are coming to Egypt. The foreigners

29:50

will be allowed to come into all of

29:52

each. They will be masters of Egypt. It

29:54

is the Greeks who will come to Egypt.

29:56

They will rule Egypt for a long time.

29:59

and then it'll about this kind of messianic figure

30:01

who will rise up and save the people, may

30:04

the hero live, he will be

30:06

the ruler in the specified time. So

30:08

we get a lot of this kind

30:11

of apocalyptic literature, which, you

30:13

know, when you compare it to other sort of

30:15

little apocalypses that we have, for instance, in the

30:18

Hebrew Bible with Daniel in the New Testament in

30:20

the Book of Mark, for instance, whenever

30:22

local populations are up against

30:24

something tremendous, they often think

30:26

of themselves as being

30:29

at the end of times. And this

30:31

is certainly what the Egyptian populace in

30:34

Upper Egypt were thinking at that time. So

30:36

we get a really, really good insight from

30:38

the surviving documents of the Egyptian

30:41

mindset of life under

30:43

colonial rule. And

30:45

this Egyptian ruler who establishes himself, does

30:47

he take a queen of his own?

30:50

Does he try to establish a new

30:52

dynasty? We have no evidence of

30:54

that at all. He does change his name from

30:58

one set of Osiris titles to

31:00

another, but we have very, very

31:02

little to say about him as

31:05

a person at all. But certainly

31:07

he's around and he's troublesome. And

31:10

according to some of the sources,

31:12

Pahlemi V allowed him to live

31:15

at the end of the rebellion. According to

31:17

others, he was clearly executed. And you know,

31:19

you pay your money and you take your

31:21

pick with that kind of dilemma. Okay.

31:25

And so that

31:27

rebellion lasts for 20 years. So

31:30

I guess we should really call the civil

31:32

war in its own sense. In a way

31:34

it was, yeah, absolutely. Following that, though, the

31:37

Pahlemi household is not destroyed by

31:39

that rebellion, spoilers. Not in the

31:41

sense that Pahlemi V eventually does

31:43

die and Cleopatra Seral Cleopatra I

31:45

continues. And this brings me to

31:48

a question that crops up repeatedly

31:50

through the book. It's a major

31:52

theme, which is the Cleopatra

31:54

is taking on the

31:56

role of sort of the senior ruler, not just

31:58

an ornament, not just a queen. not just

32:00

a supporting figure for her husband,

32:03

but to actually be the leading force in the

32:05

government of the day. Can you tell

32:07

us a little bit more about that in general terms? I don't

32:09

want you to recount the whole book, but

32:11

what is the political role that these

32:13

queens play when they get the opportunity

32:15

to govern? You know, by

32:17

and large, I think it's down to

32:19

personality rather than institution

32:22

per se. It

32:24

just so happens that in this 150 year period that

32:27

my book covers, the women seem

32:29

to have been far more adept at

32:31

being politicians and governors than

32:33

the menfolk of the dynasty were. The

32:36

men, with one or two

32:38

exceptions, Ptolemy VIII, Potbelly, were

32:41

pretty unremarkable as rulers. And

32:44

so the women just stand out. And

32:46

that's because in a way they did

32:48

seize the opportunity to do so. Sometimes

32:50

they kind of bullied and

32:52

harangue their way to the top. And

32:55

sometimes it naturally came to them because

32:57

their husbands or brothers were more than

32:59

happy to give them that power.

33:01

So to give you the

33:04

best example of this, I suppose, is

33:06

the finger of Cleopatra III. Now

33:09

she had come

33:12

to marry the king Ptolemy VIII

33:14

as a very young girl, maybe about 16 or 17, at

33:17

a time when her mother was

33:19

already married to the same king. So

33:22

we have Ptolemy VIII, Potbelly, enormously

33:24

fat king, on the throne with

33:26

a mother and a daughter as two queens at one

33:28

at the same time. Did not make for a happy

33:31

home. But something about that really,

33:33

he kind of made, put

33:35

some grits and some fire in

33:37

Cleopatra III's belly. Because when

33:39

she was widow, she

33:42

essentially became the kingmaker

33:44

in Egypt. And she had two

33:46

sons, Ptolemy IX and Ptolemy X.

33:49

Ptolemy IX, she just simply disliked.

33:53

So she promoted as much as she could. And

33:55

then she called Ptolemy X onto the throne. This kind

33:58

of backfired against her. the

34:00

Egyptian courtiers who insisted that their

34:02

elder son should be king. But

34:05

when he does take up the mantle

34:07

of pharaoh as Ptolemy IX, she

34:10

completely dominates his reign, completely

34:12

and utterly. It is she

34:14

who sets the standards for

34:16

taxes. It is she who

34:19

orders foreign diplomatic ventures with Rome,

34:21

with the rest of the Hellenistic

34:23

world. It is she who calls

34:25

for shots when it comes to

34:28

declaring war. And importantly,

34:30

it is she who takes

34:32

precedence in all pharaonic religious

34:34

rites and rituals. And

34:36

Cleopatra III, during her

34:38

reign, takes on more

34:41

religious titles than any

34:43

queen in Egyptian history.

34:45

She just invents them for

34:47

herself, including she has

34:49

created for herself a male

34:52

priesthood to worship her

34:54

as the living Isis. So

34:57

not a semblance of Isis, but

34:59

the living Isis worshiped in temples

35:01

throughout the whole of Egypt. And

35:03

we can really see her dominance on

35:06

temple walls. So one

35:08

of my favorites is that the

35:10

little temple of Hator in Dirla

35:12

Medina. And there on the side

35:14

of the the sanctuary, the inner

35:17

sanctuary, just on the outside of

35:19

that, we see her offering Jha's

35:21

ointment to the

35:24

divine triad of Thebes, and

35:26

her son, the king, stands

35:28

behind her. This is

35:30

really remarkable, as you know, that the

35:33

structure of Egyptian art is rigid, and

35:35

it's the pharaoh first, the queen then

35:37

does her progression, everything standing behind it,

35:39

maybe even at a smaller scale. But

35:42

here, Cleopatra is up front and center.

35:44

And that goes for every representation we

35:46

have of the queen, both

35:48

during the reign of Ptolemy IX

35:51

and then of Ptolemy X as well.

35:53

And at Edfun, we

35:55

have 20 meter

35:57

high images of

35:59

Cleopatra's the third alone, with no

36:01

king around her whatsoever. And

36:04

she is propitiating the

36:06

gods who are acting

36:09

out the drama of the murder of

36:11

Osiris. You'll know these wonderful reliefs on

36:13

the side of Edfu Temple. She

36:16

is there with her priestesses, no king,

36:19

no sons, nothing at all. She

36:21

takes that role herself. And

36:24

this is a precedent that is

36:26

continued by some of

36:28

her successors. My favorites of all

36:30

the Cleopatra's is Cleopatra V. She

36:35

was married to her uncle, Ptolemy

36:37

V. She was much, much

36:39

younger than him. She gave him several

36:41

daughters and a son who

36:43

died young. But she, like

36:45

her grandmother, Cleopatra III, also

36:47

believed and was capable of

36:50

individual rule. And in fact,

36:52

when Ptolemy V died, Cleopatra V

36:55

became the first Egyptian

36:57

queen since the Pharaonic period

37:00

to rule independently. And

37:03

on the rear wall of

37:05

Edfu Temple, she is represented

37:07

honoring Hatter alone in

37:10

a relief which is over 30 feet high.

37:13

It's really, really quite remarkable. So

37:15

there's the precedent all set up. These

37:17

women were capable. And I just

37:19

think they, you know, they, it

37:22

all fell into place for them because they

37:24

had unable husbands

37:26

and sons and

37:28

they just had political acumen.

37:32

And I think really that's the

37:34

key to understanding the

37:36

proper role of Cleopatra VII,

37:39

the last Cleopatra, you know, the Liz Taylor,

37:41

because she's so often regarded as a kind

37:43

of lone wolf. We only know

37:45

her story. But in fact, if you can see her

37:48

in the context of the

37:51

Cleopatra's that preceded her, everything

37:53

slops into place, you can really

37:55

see how she became the

37:58

woman she was because the, you know,

38:00

her ground. mother, mother, great grandmother, and

38:02

set the precedent for her all the

38:04

time. And I do think that

38:06

Cleopatra VII knew her family history very well.

38:08

She was a sharp cookie. Teutarch tells us

38:11

that, of course. But, you know, we can

38:13

see it in operation. So when Mark

38:15

Antony doled out the eastern

38:17

half of the Roman Empire to Cleopatra

38:19

and her children, Cleopatra herself took

38:22

a new title on

38:24

her coinage. And in

38:26

Greek, it read Cleopatra sei

38:28

notaira, which means Cleopatra

38:30

the newer goddess. In

38:33

other words, she was recognizing that her

38:36

great grandmother, Cleopatra III,

38:39

had made herself a living goddess.

38:41

And now she was reactivating

38:44

that she was the newest version

38:46

of Cleopatra III, besides

38:48

which the term Cleopatra

38:51

thea, Cleopatra the goddess, was

38:54

also the name of one of

38:56

her great aunts who had

38:58

completely dominated the saluted

39:01

realm. She was a Ptolemaic princess

39:03

and the sister of Cleopatra III, who

39:05

completely dominated Syria as well.

39:08

So Cleopatra VII knew the women

39:10

of her family, I think. She knew her ancestry

39:13

extremely well. A couple

39:15

of questions that sort of build on that. So, for

39:17

example, going back to the wall of

39:19

the Edfu temple, the three major

39:22

sides of that are all decorated

39:24

with large-scale Ptolemaic figures. But,

39:27

you know, just from your description there, we have Cleopatra

39:29

III, V and VII who all

39:31

appear within the same general area.

39:34

And also, actually, Cleopatra VI is there

39:36

as well. And that's

39:38

often missed. So, you know, there's

39:40

been a huge debate for a long time about

39:43

who was the mother of Cleopatra

39:45

VII. And, of course, recently Netflix

39:47

made a documentary and there was this whole

39:49

debate about, you know, was the mother of

39:51

Cleopatra Black? Because people have said, oh, she

39:53

was probably an Egyptian concubine because we don't

39:55

know who she was. Well, that's not true

39:57

at all. We do know we have very

40:00

very clear evidence of who she

40:02

was. It's just that people are looking at

40:04

the wrong place. They're looking for the classical

40:06

evidence. She doesn't appear in the

40:08

Greek and Latin sources, but she's there up

40:11

front and center in the hieroglyphic sources. And

40:13

just behind the first great pylon in

40:16

Edfu, there she is standing

40:19

next to her husband, Ptolemy XII, and

40:22

she is called Queen Cleopatra, who

40:24

is called Trophina. So Cleopatra VI,

40:26

Trophina, oh, that she was a

40:28

Ptolemaic princess. So I think we

40:30

can put to bed the whole

40:32

debate about Cleopatra VII's mother.

40:35

But you're right, in a way, this little

40:38

sort of enclave within the temple

40:40

of Edfu is this pion of praise,

40:42

really, to the Cleopatra. What

40:44

I was going to ask specifically

40:46

was more of the practicalities of

40:48

decorating that temple. Is

40:52

it being decorated in stages or are

40:54

the subsequent generations recarving sections to

40:56

add themselves? By and large,

40:59

the sections that have the

41:01

images of specific queens are

41:04

carved around the time of their

41:06

appearances about their reigns. So,

41:08

for instance, we know that

41:11

Cleopatra II is

41:13

depicted with hotbelly

41:15

Ptolemy VIII together with their young son,

41:17

Memphis, and they are named that way.

41:20

As a mirror image to that scene, we

41:23

have Ptolemy VIII's hotbelly with

41:25

his second wife, Cleopatra III,

41:29

and their son Ptolemy IX

41:31

as well. So they are definitely images which

41:33

are set up at that time. Likewise

41:35

with Cleopatra III and Cleopatra V.

41:38

But what you do see in Ptolemy, temples

41:40

all over the place, especially

41:43

from the later reigns, so

41:45

from Ptolemy IX through to

41:47

Ptolemy XIV-15, we have

41:50

empty cartouches, of course. So you

41:52

have these representations of kings doing

41:54

all the ritual requirements, but the

41:57

cartouches are completely blank. And

41:59

I think that's because there was such

42:01

a disconnect between what was happening on

42:03

the throne in Alexandria and getting that

42:05

information all the way down the Nile

42:07

to Aswan and beyond. So

42:10

I think rather than gambling on terms

42:12

and titles, sculptors were

42:14

simply leaving cartouches blank. And

42:16

they've been left blank all of this time, you know, it

42:19

gets, you know, fill in this as you need to essentially.

42:21

And that happens with some of the other later

42:23

queens as well. And

42:25

you briefly touched on the Cleopatra

42:28

who went to the Seleucid Empire

42:30

and was a very powerful political

42:33

figure there. Can we expect

42:35

at some point a history of

42:37

the Seleucid Empire from you?

42:40

I'd like to do it. I mean, I think there are

42:42

better people than I out there to do it. But

42:44

it is a remarkable world. And

42:47

I think what I've done in this

42:49

book is to try to show

42:51

how quite literally intermarried these

42:54

two dynasties were. So

42:56

from the time of Cleopatra's sire, the

42:59

Syrian princess moving into Egypt,

43:01

what we have from there on in is

43:03

this continual toing and

43:05

froing of royal brides over

43:08

the border. And

43:11

really, Cleopatra Cyrus,

43:14

three granddaughters, all

43:17

married, granddaughters or great granddaughters, let me

43:19

see. Cleopatra

43:22

Cyrus' granddaughter Cleopatra Fia

43:24

married into the Seleucid

43:26

dynasty. And then Cleopatra

43:28

Cyrus, three great granddaughters,

43:30

all Ptolemaic princesses, all

43:33

became successive queens of

43:35

the Seleucid realm as well. So by

43:37

the end, by the time we get to

43:39

Cleopatra VII, you can barely put a pin

43:42

in between a Seleucid and a Ptolemy.

43:44

They are so closely aligned, really. And

43:46

I think that's probably the best way

43:49

to see them from the second

43:51

century onwards, that they are one dynastic

43:53

unit to all intents and purposes.

43:56

Okay. And do the wars stop or do they

43:58

carry on? stop

44:00

after Ptolemy VI, but

44:03

we it opened these marriages of

44:05

these Ptolemaic princesses to rival Seleucid

44:07

kings, opens up a can of worms

44:09

there and what we have devastating

44:11

civil wars in the

44:14

Seleucid realms which actually kill off

44:17

every one of these Ptolemaic princesses, not

44:19

one of them survives the wars. Okay,

44:23

that's a real chaos of Cleopatra. Really.

44:39

We have explored the lives,

44:42

loves, diplomacy and wars of

44:44

the Cleopatras and their Ptolemaic

44:46

house. Now we

44:48

tackle the big one, the most

44:50

famous Cleopatra of all, Cleopatra

44:53

VII. The

44:55

object of admiration, hatred, lust

44:57

and no small amount of

45:00

envy, Cleopatra VII endures

45:03

as a symbol far beyond

45:05

her earthly deeds. Professor

45:07

Llewelyn Jones takes us through this

45:09

phenomenon, including the question

45:11

of Cleopatra's lineage, who was

45:13

her mother? Why is

45:15

she so famous compared to all

45:18

her accomplished predecessors? And

45:20

what do we really know of

45:22

her politics, personality and life? So

45:30

this brings us, you know, we've covered several

45:33

Cleopatras but ultimately they

45:36

are all overshadowed by the last

45:38

and this is a key theme in the book,

45:40

it's sort of the main focus of the introduction

45:43

but it crops up repeatedly. Why

45:45

does Cleopatra VII so dominate

45:47

the discourse as compared

45:50

to those who came before her? Why is she

45:52

the one that stands out? I

45:54

think it's because her memory has

45:56

survived more clearly than

45:58

all of the others. And

46:01

that's because really, during

46:03

her own lifetime, her

46:06

enemies, the Romans, were already creating

46:08

her mythology. So by

46:10

the time of her suicide, they

46:12

had cast her as this, well, in

46:14

the Latin they call her fatale monster,

46:17

this horrific woman. She

46:20

is the serpent of the Nile. She

46:22

is the slayer of men. She

46:25

eats Roman senators for

46:27

dinner. And this is

46:29

up and running already. And basically from that moment

46:31

on, from the Roman conception of Cleopatra

46:34

in that way, right the

46:36

way up until the modern world, every

46:38

successive generation of human

46:40

beings have claimed Cleopatra

46:42

as their own and

46:45

molded her into whatever shape

46:47

they want her to be. She's been pulled

46:49

in stretch. She is such an elastic figure in

46:52

that kind of way. So

46:54

she's been the ultimate fan

46:56

fatale in French Orientalist

46:59

paintings of the 19th century.

47:02

She's been the onscreen goddess

47:04

with Claudette Colber, Vivienne

47:06

Lee, Elizabeth Taylor, of course.

47:09

She's been a camp icon.

47:11

She's been hailed as a

47:13

heroine of Black Lives Matter.

47:16

She's been claimed for the Me

47:18

Too movement constantly. We

47:20

are projecting ourselves on

47:22

Cleopatra the Seven. So

47:25

that's why she has survived. But

47:28

what we know of her really, most

47:32

people could probably write on the back of a box

47:34

of matches. It's the image,

47:36

it's the fantasy that has

47:39

the kudos, not her real life. And

47:41

so what I wanted to do in this book was to

47:43

try to get back to her real life as much as

47:45

possible. And

47:48

I think that's what I wanted to do in the context

47:50

of the other Cleopatra. I

47:53

should say there are a few things which are

47:56

quite remarkable about her. I mean,

47:58

she is a woman of note. None of

48:00

her previous Cleopatra's had to do.

48:02

I mean, Rome wasn't in that position.

48:04

It was growing in power, but not

48:06

in that way. What I do

48:08

find interesting about Cleopatra VII is

48:11

that unlike any of the other Cleopatras, she

48:13

showed no desire

48:16

to be seated on

48:18

the throne of Egypt next to

48:20

her husband-brother. So in

48:23

her father's will, it stipulated that Cleopatra had

48:25

to share the throne with her

48:27

younger brother Ptolemy XIII. She

48:29

completely rejected that and actually went to

48:32

war against him. And

48:34

likewise, after his death, when

48:36

Julius Caesar put her on the

48:38

throne of Egypt and compelled her

48:40

to marry her youngest brother Ptolemy

48:42

XIV, again, she rejected

48:44

that and had him killed too. So

48:47

unlike the other Cleopatras who were happy to sit

48:50

with nondescript husband-brothers on

48:52

the throne, Cleopatra simply rejected it.

48:54

And I don't know why. I've

48:57

really speculated about it. I can't quite understand

48:59

why. But then we see a

49:01

real sea change happen after

49:04

she gives birth to her first son,

49:07

Caesarean, the son of Julius

49:09

Caesar, or Ptolemy XV, since

49:11

he is rightly known. From

49:14

after his birth, the only

49:16

thing that matters to Cleopatra VII is

49:18

obtaining the throne

49:21

of Egypt for Caesarean. But

49:24

never for herself, all the things

49:26

she does, throwing in her lot

49:28

with Mark Antony, for instance, is

49:31

never for her power. It's

49:33

for the power of Caesarean

49:35

and to ensure that the

49:37

throne of Egypt passes to him. So

49:41

she in some ways rejects everything

49:44

that Cleopatras did before

49:46

in terms of brother-husband

49:48

marriages, but takes

49:50

on that mantle of the protective Queen Mother,

49:53

if you like, to ensure that

49:55

Caesarean gets onto that throne. and

50:00

feline of Cleopatra

50:02

and Cisarian. We have

50:05

Cleopatra in the front position, Cisarian

50:07

standing time. But by the

50:09

time we get to that very famous image

50:11

that we have 30 foot high carved into

50:13

the real wall of the Temple of Dendola,

50:16

there we have the young Cisarian who could only

50:18

be a boy of eight or nine at that

50:20

time looking like an adult in

50:22

the complete pharaonic regalia, including the

50:25

hepresh, the war crown. And

50:27

taking the secondary position is Cleopatra the

50:29

servant. She has promoted

50:31

him completely to the kingship. So

50:34

that's an interesting thing. And unfortunately,

50:37

we have a lost relief

50:40

from the Temple of Nehebet at

50:42

El Qab, just south of Luxor,

50:45

which only survives in early 19th century

50:47

sketch. But

50:50

it shows Cleopatra giving

50:53

birth to Cisarian. She

50:56

is surrounded by the seven

50:58

hatters, the kind of good fairies of

51:00

myth. But

51:02

we see her, her arms are

51:04

raised and held above her head

51:06

while the child Cisarian is

51:09

delivered from her womb. While

51:11

at the same time, she

51:14

depicted in the vulture crown

51:16

and the feathered headrest standing

51:19

next to the goddess Mutt, watches

51:21

herself give birth as well. And

51:24

that is an absolutely unique

51:27

relief in the whole of Egyptian

51:29

art. I've never come across

51:31

that anywhere else at all, not

51:33

even in the most sophisticated divine

51:35

theologies of birth theologies of Ramesses

51:37

II or Amenhotep III. This

51:40

is really, really going the extra

51:42

mile to link her to Cisarian

51:45

and to the legitimacy

51:48

of his reign as well. So again,

51:50

I find fact is so much

51:52

better than fiction. The real thing

51:54

is more than love for me. That's

51:56

interesting. I'm glad you clarified that because one of the

51:58

questions I was going to have That was. How.

52:01

Much of the depiction of her as a.

52:03

Lone Wolf when it comes to have

52:05

brothers versus them. Carrying. Queen

52:08

region for has some. I was

52:10

curious how much of that is divided

52:12

between the Greco Roman sauces and the

52:14

Egyptian. so the Egyptian seems to vary

52:16

strength very much present that mother had

52:18

row quite strongly. Most. Definitely very

52:20

very much indeed. Whereas.

52:23

The queen is barely. I don't

52:25

think she's ever represented with a

52:27

province. We only ever got

52:29

get it in Epithets Army New Queen

52:31

Cleopatra to Ptolemy Are you see of

52:33

way Ranting Tom I'm young. Of

52:36

it's just like enormously but we don't

52:39

get recitation So yes you're you're right

52:41

to be the Egyptian as it's just

52:43

for grounds This vision of Cleopatra as

52:45

the of to that stage must have

52:48

clearly pushing the sun's with single mother

52:50

superior pretty well. Yeah, if I could

52:52

ask you to speculate wildly, would you

52:54

characterize Herb early lone wolf status. versus.

52:57

Had queen mother status. Would.

52:59

You do? You see it as a. Again

53:01

speculating as a genuine emotional concern for

53:04

her son or do you see it

53:06

as a and political terms as establishing

53:08

her own dynasty buses brothers him she

53:10

can't necessarily control. They have their own

53:12

ideas. How does it all come together

53:14

in your mind. I think there's

53:16

a little of both as I think

53:18

that's the idea of of the uncontrollably

53:20

on ability of brothers. Is. Something

53:23

that concerned or Cleopatra's nice unclear.

53:25

Our seven shared in that. But.

53:27

I do believe. When.

53:29

She looked into his baby blue eyes. It.

53:31

Was pure love. Sources are in on. this

53:34

is what you get I think in. Latin

53:36

and Greek sources is this

53:38

is devotion. You. Know she was. When

53:41

all the chips are down, you know When

53:44

she was getting prepared to commit suicide, she

53:46

still. Believes. That her

53:48

son could be saved some sheath. For.

53:50

Instance Center Fleet of ships down

53:52

the Nile. And a swan

53:55

the ships were taking the sure

53:57

on marched across the desert. So.

53:59

That they could the out into the Red

54:01

Sea and takes his aryan off to safety

54:04

in India. But. On the plan was

54:06

scuppered an answer to this is our it. Didn't.

54:08

Live. Out his mother's death by

54:10

only a matter of days before. I'm

54:13

Octavian would have killed him, and I

54:15

really do get the feeling that he

54:17

was everything to her. I'm some

54:19

of the Greek sources say that in the

54:21

days leading up to her suit suicide, she

54:24

actually went on on hunger strike. First of

54:26

all, to ensure that her. I

54:28

had children would be saved by clear

54:30

up but is aren't particularly an actor.

54:33

Augustus oh okay but of agree to that

54:35

she started to be to get. Maggots.

54:38

So at least one thing from the

54:40

Elizabeth Taylor Cleopatra where she has that

54:43

as our vision of Caesar being murdered

54:45

and her first thought is my son?

54:47

At least that yes, families I think

54:49

it might think it is Absolutely yeah.

54:51

So. To sort of

54:53

and light hearted questions festival. Who

54:56

is your favorite? cinematic? Cleopatra if you

54:58

have one. Yes, I

55:00

love true that called back. In

55:03

the Nineteen thirty two.

55:06

To. A passer by Sessile be the

55:08

bell. I love her because and that

55:10

kind of style of it. Early Hollywood's

55:13

sort of before the kind of. The.

55:15

Moral Crunch that went on. She's

55:17

very much the kind of high

55:19

society posts das. Ah, she's kind

55:21

of like a fifth average girl.

55:23

You though, I love her because

55:25

she's out promoting. She's ultra art

55:27

deco and I love love love

55:29

the design. That was created

55:31

by Travis as that I've i've written

55:33

a book on Hollywood's the Ancient world

55:35

are called Designs of the Past. How

55:38

Hollywood. Out on

55:40

the Cleopatra films become opinion of

55:42

but that's that's the ultimate some

55:44

people yet out product called as

55:46

a Cleopatra the I'm very partial

55:48

to that design and aesthetic myself

55:50

as well. Such a choice And

55:52

who's your favorite? Historical Cleopatra from

55:54

Egypt. Or like Cleopatra the fifth.

55:57

This. cleopatra who only rained

55:59

for about three

56:01

years, but importantly, she

56:03

reigned alone with no

56:05

man beside her at all. And you know, we

56:08

haven't seen that happen since the days of Taweret

56:10

and, you know, we can go right the

56:12

way back into Pharaonic history. And

56:15

she does it extremely well

56:17

and was much, much loved

56:19

by Egyptians and Greeks

56:21

within the country. I

56:24

wish we had more about her because

56:26

what we have really is only the

56:28

tip of the iceberg and we can't

56:30

tell anything about her personality at all.

56:32

But there she is on the walls

56:34

of Edfu Temple, looking like Liz Taylor,

56:36

actually, in her shimmering gold larvae and

56:38

her towering falcon headdress. So she's my

56:40

favorite. Cleopatra the Shiff. Cleopatra the

56:42

Shiff, okay, good choice. Now that brings me

56:44

to the end of my historical questions about

56:46

the Cleopatras. But if you have time, I

56:49

would like to ask you just a couple

56:51

small questions about your previous

56:53

work in scholarship and also in

56:55

Hollywood. So first

56:57

of all, what brought you to ancient

56:59

world and classical studies initially? What was

57:01

the attraction? Well, it really

57:03

was actually an overdose of old Hollywood

57:05

movies back in Wales on a

57:07

Saturday afternoon back in the 70s and 80s. There

57:11

used to be a sort of a Hollywood epic on

57:13

every weekend, and I was absolutely besotted

57:15

by them. So it was an overdose of

57:17

Cleopatras and Ben Hurst and The

57:19

Robe and the greatest story ever told,

57:21

really, that got me into this in

57:24

the first place. I remember then my

57:26

very first Egyptology book was a wonderful

57:28

thing called The Day in the Life

57:30

of Tutankhamun, and that was superb. And

57:32

then Lady Bird Books and all of

57:34

this, you know, so that it starts

57:36

very young, doesn't it? Very often with

57:38

those of us who love ancient history,

57:40

it's a different level of getting

57:43

into the past. It grabs us in

57:45

a more concentrated way, I often

57:47

feel. I feel that with my students still

57:49

today, you know, they choose to

57:52

do ancient history, not just history,

57:54

because some kind of spark has

57:56

been lit up in them. And that spark

57:58

for me was certainly holy. and the sort of

58:01

ladybird books. And,

58:03

you know, speaking of Hollywood, one of

58:05

the noteworthy things that you did

58:07

in the past 20 years was that

58:09

you were a historical consultant for the 2004

58:12

film Alexander. And

58:14

as I understand it, you primarily consulted

58:17

on costuming and design, is that correct?

58:20

That's right. So I worked quite closely

58:22

with Oliver Stone and his

58:24

costume props and design departments,

58:27

trying to get the look of

58:29

the ancient world right, which

58:31

in my book, designs on the past,

58:34

is something I'm very critical of, because

58:36

these films, like 1932, Cleopatra, really

58:39

filters antiquity through the modern vibe,

58:41

of course. Stone wanted to get

58:43

things as accurate as possible, and

58:46

to a certain extent I think he did a

58:48

good job. But there are still many things which

58:50

speak far more about 2004 than

58:54

about 200 or 300 BCE. So

58:58

Angelina Jolie as Olympias, you know, her

59:00

gowns, are still essentially sort

59:03

of Christiandial kind of creations with liquid waste

59:05

and so forth. But there's a lot of

59:07

good stuff there, especially the Persian materials, I

59:09

think. They did a very good

59:11

job of creating the Persian look. And

59:14

presumably you were involved quite heavily in

59:16

those specific costumes with

59:18

you? Yeah, yeah, yeah, absolutely. I

59:21

did a lot on that. Which

59:23

was a really fascinating experience, especially being

59:26

interested in film and the filmic process

59:28

as I am, because I really got

59:30

to see the dilemma that

59:32

a really fine director

59:35

like Oliver Stone can get in. Oliver

59:37

Stone has got a real passion for

59:39

history, and he wanted to tell the

59:41

story as correctly as he could.

59:43

And he had people like Robbie Lane Fox,

59:45

who's one of the world experts on Alexander,

59:47

who had his side. But what I

59:50

realized was ultimately even a

59:52

powerful director like Stone was at the back

59:54

and core of the studio. So,

59:56

you know, when the studio said, no, you can't do

59:58

that, then think about it. were dropped, or sometimes

1:00:01

things would happen in the course of filming

1:00:03

in just one day that would change everything.

1:00:05

So for instance, at one day, I remember

1:00:08

they cast a very well-known

1:00:10

actress in the role of

1:00:12

the Great Mother to Tyra, and

1:00:15

we were about to film a scene

1:00:17

where she says, you know, you two

1:00:19

are my son, and the actress pulled

1:00:21

out because of some contractual difficulties, but

1:00:24

it was too late to reset or

1:00:26

to recast, and so the script had

1:00:28

to be rewritten, and one of the

1:00:30

smaller characters had to take on

1:00:32

those lines completely unhistorical.

1:00:35

There I could see for

1:00:37

myself what difficulties

1:00:39

filmmakers are under when they're

1:00:42

trying to just represent straightforwardly

1:00:44

the past on screen. It's a minefield.

1:00:46

Has that the scene where they enter

1:00:49

the harem in Babylon and Tyra, she

1:00:51

takes the lines from Porus of Hidespeys

1:00:53

and she says she wants to be

1:00:56

treated as a queen? Okay, precisely, precisely.

1:00:58

So that should be the Queen Mother's

1:01:00

spirit. Fascinating. I have to

1:01:02

admit that I'm very, very fond of

1:01:04

that film. I like it. I

1:01:06

think it's a good one, and I think the director's

1:01:09

cut gets closer to the...

1:01:11

Which one? Yeah, yeah, yeah.

1:01:14

But I still recall reading the very

1:01:16

first script that Oliver Stone created, and

1:01:18

I've got a copy of it here

1:01:20

in my study. That's when I really

1:01:22

saw what his vision was supposed to

1:01:24

be without any compromise at

1:01:27

all, you know, and then you really understood

1:01:30

what a real passion he

1:01:32

has for the past and for the Alexander's. I

1:01:34

guess we should note though that that film

1:01:36

does not include the sister, Cleopatra, to the

1:01:39

best of my knowledge. She does not appear.

1:01:41

No, she's not there. No, absolutely not. Did

1:01:43

you try to go to bat for her

1:01:45

or were you not? There were some things you thought it's better

1:01:49

to win this battle because the war can't

1:01:52

be won. So we all learned,

1:01:54

all of us who were kind of advisors Learned

1:01:56

when to speak up. They

1:02:00

really necessary because otherwise our voices

1:02:02

would just be this constant nagging.

1:02:04

If you know, I got it

1:02:06

right. yeah but it was a fascinating spirits

1:02:08

he was not know recently I've just other.

1:02:11

Big. Documentary on on Alexander for Netflix,

1:02:13

so I was involved in that

1:02:15

quite heavily, and that was a

1:02:17

really fascinating. Experience to but

1:02:19

of course that was a documentary

1:02:22

and. While. I enjoyed about that

1:02:24

was the allows us as academics to

1:02:26

kinds of leads. The. Story really

1:02:28

And they edited it very well. So.

1:02:32

It's follow grounded in historical debate. They allowed

1:02:34

to post suit to be seen on the

1:02:36

on the screen as well, which was good

1:02:38

thing I've been meaning to watch that and

1:02:40

Up still on my watchlist, but I haven't

1:02:42

got around to it yet of us were

1:02:44

interested. So you can associate professor the Valentine's

1:02:46

and Alexander so that brings me to the

1:02:49

end of my questions. And. Thank you

1:02:51

very much for coming out to discuss.

1:02:53

I think that was a really fascinating

1:02:55

and and said during the complexities of

1:02:57

add Ptolemaic history. I really appreciate the

1:02:59

virus a that. Are you brought here

1:03:01

and and your book? Just. To untangling

1:03:03

the see a mess of people

1:03:06

who are involved in these these

1:03:08

stories. It's. And. Only I don't look

1:03:10

forward to the day where I have to start

1:03:12

untangling that for myself and my own. Our

1:03:14

podcast but. When he is a

1:03:16

must for what I did. As you'll

1:03:18

now is I tended to use their

1:03:20

nicknames as often as possible so rather

1:03:23

than just throw boards will abuse. On

1:03:25

to the original Air B, to Tens

1:03:27

or even nice whenever they will. You

1:03:29

know by addict people elites. Actually

1:03:32

help me. And handle some of

1:03:34

these lines. What's. out of curiosity

1:03:36

do you think that's how they would mostly

1:03:39

be no and in their own time yeah

1:03:41

i think so i really did i read

1:03:43

it because it must have been quite confusing

1:03:45

for the locals as well you know ask

1:03:48

him if we got mail enough ptolemy you

1:03:50

i get a's which one they were know

1:03:52

by nicknames on by personal birth rates as

1:03:54

well as absolutely up and well sesame oil

1:03:56

engines lloyd thank you so much for coming

1:03:59

on to expire these and the new book

1:04:01

will be out very shortly at the time

1:04:03

that we are recording this. So if

1:04:06

people want to follow you online, are

1:04:08

you available on Twitter, Instagram? Where can

1:04:10

they find you? I don't

1:04:12

have any real social media sort of

1:04:14

outlets at all, but you will find

1:04:17

my email address at Cardiff University online

1:04:19

and I'm always happy to answer

1:04:22

questions. Should you email me? I'll

1:04:24

be delighted to be in touch with any of

1:04:26

my listeners. And

1:04:28

you mentioned that you are taking a tour

1:04:30

group to Turkey. Is that something you do

1:04:32

regularly? I do. I'm lucky

1:04:34

enough to take tours for some really great

1:04:37

historical tour groups. I do Turkey,

1:04:39

I do Greece, Cyprus, used

1:04:42

to do Iran, but we haven't been there for quite

1:04:44

a while now. We're starting up,

1:04:46

hopefully, Egypt very soon, doing a tour

1:04:48

called the Cleopatra's Egypt. Very

1:04:50

good. And where can people find those

1:04:52

if they're interested? You'll find those on

1:04:55

the website for Martin Randall travel, Martin

1:04:57

Randall travel, the London based travel agency.

1:04:59

Very good. Very good. Okay.

1:05:01

Well, thank you so much for explaining

1:05:04

the Cleopatra's to us. I think it's

1:05:06

a really fascinating subject and you've done

1:05:08

an excellent job at explaining them. So

1:05:10

thank you very much. Thank

1:05:12

you very much as well. This

1:05:17

brings us to the end of

1:05:19

our conversation. If you have enjoyed

1:05:21

learning more about the Cleopatra's, Professor

1:05:24

Llewellyn Jones new book is available

1:05:26

now in paperback, hardback, ebook and

1:05:28

audio book read by the author

1:05:30

himself. Check the episode description for

1:05:33

links if you would like to learn more. My

1:05:36

thanks to Professor Llewellyn Jones for

1:05:38

joining us and to headline publishing

1:05:40

for organizing this interview. And

1:05:42

thank you for listening. I hope

1:05:45

you've enjoyed this little detour to

1:05:47

distant ages, forgotten cities, and the

1:05:49

lineage of Queens that is far

1:05:51

more than meets the eye. May

1:05:54

Isis and Hera bless you

1:05:56

and keep you safe. I'll

1:05:58

see you soon. You