0:00

Welcome to the piked In Massacre Episode

0:03

nine. We're going to do something a little bit

0:05

different for this episode and

0:08

go into the process of producing

0:10

the podcast and also answer

0:13

some questions we've been getting over social

0:15

media. I'm Courtney Armstrong. I

0:17

work at Kat's Studios with Stephanie Leidecker

0:19

and Jeff Shane.

0:20

We're finally together again, distance

0:22

but together.

0:23

Yeah, because of COVID we've all been recording

0:26

separately, but we're actually in the same

0:28

socially distant space today for

0:31

the first time in many months.

0:33

And we are sitting outside to

0:36

keep safe.

0:42

One of the things a bunch of people have asked about

0:44

is how we came upon this case,

0:48

And Jeff, do you want to speak to that, because you really

0:50

were the impetus for it.

0:51

Yeah.

0:52

At KAT Studios, we do a lot of true

0:54

crime programming, and so we're always kind

0:56

of on the lookout for interesting cases

0:59

that are like aired and complex that could

1:01

make for you know, compelling

1:04

television documentaries. And you

1:06

know, when it first happened, when the Rodents

1:08

were first murdered, it got a fair amount of intention at the beginning,

1:11

and as we've talked about pretty quickly,

1:13

the media kind of backed off when there weren't

1:15

arrests, and that was kind

1:17

of all there was to it

1:19

and in terms of our knowledge. And then

1:21

in June of twenty eighteen, I read

1:23

an article by Jeff Winkler, who you've all

1:25

heard during this podcast, that

1:28

he wrote for The Outline, a long form article about

1:30

the crime that really he did such

1:32

a good job of laying out the story and

1:34

what happened and the people involved,

1:37

and it immediately struck a chord with

1:39

me, just the human element

1:41

of it all and how tragic it was.

1:43

And so reached out to Jeff Winkler

1:46

and started the conversation about

1:48

figuring out how we could make this some sort of long

1:51

form documentary.

1:52

Yeah, so here's an excerpt of

1:54

him talking about piped in and part of what drew us

1:56

all in.

1:57

So I remember that very specifically. It was a big

2:00

media story for about two weeks, and

2:02

you know, everybody from all over came

2:05

to cover it, all over the world, and then they

2:08

left and the murder was still unsolved.

2:11

How did you end up writing because you wrote

2:13

a pretty big piece, What was the tell

2:15

me about that?

2:16

I wrote a piece about a year later.

2:18

This was, after all, the sort of

2:21

fanfare and media attention went away,

2:24

and I went to piked In a

2:26

year later, almost to the

2:28

day, about a year or two the day of

2:31

the killings, and I wanted to

2:33

see how the town was

2:36

doing, both the community and

2:38

the people who were directly involved in it, because

2:40

at that point there was still no

2:43

suspects, no one was really arrested

2:46

or being prosecuted for the crime, and

2:48

it was the largest unsolved murder

2:51

in Ohio's history, and the second

2:53

largest mass murder that year

2:56

in the United States, after the poll

2:58

shooting in Florida.

3:03

We had been tracking this case since it happened,

3:05

and when we first got involved, the Wagners hadn't

3:07

been arrested or weren't even being looked at as

3:09

suspects by detectives. So

3:12

we pitched the idea of this documentary

3:14

to rod Asa and Corey Abraham, who

3:16

are executives at NBC Universal's

3:18

Oxygen Network, And.

3:20

Really the spirit of that was that this huge

3:22

crime had occurred to the poor Rodin

3:24

family and the killer

3:27

was at large and they were still out there.

3:29

Cut to the Wagners get arrested, and

3:32

our executives at Oxygen call

3:34

us and put us on a plane to piked In.

3:36

Yeah, I mean, let's talk about we've spent I

3:38

mean, I think between the three of us weeks

3:41

in piked In over the course of many trips,

3:43

and yeah, you guys spent more time there than I

3:45

did. So I'd be curious what your take on it is.

3:47

My first time was when we were going to

3:49

do the doc and I

3:52

flew by myself, I think on

3:54

Thanksgiving and met Jeff Winkler,

3:57

who of course wrote this important article. Who

3:59

we were you know, just talking to and brainstorming

4:01

with.

4:02

You know, Initially, this trip, Stephanie that you're talking

4:04

about was literally nine

4:06

days after the arrests. You know, they the Wagoners

4:08

were arrested on November thirteenth, twenty eighteen. She's

4:11

on a plane on November twenty second,

4:13

and so it was really soon after

4:15

that the team was there, and I

4:18

mean the town was I think a form of shell

4:20

shock at that point.

4:21

I think the mood in the town was really palpable. There

4:23

was something very big about what was happening

4:26

around us. You

4:28

know, we've said this before. It is a very

4:30

small town, two thousand people. So to

4:33

have eight people murdered out of those

4:35

two thousand, every single person

4:37

in the town is affected to some degree

4:39

or knows somebody six degrees of separation

4:42

who was either on the Wagner side or on the

4:44

road And side. So everyone was very affected

4:47

and asking questions

4:49

about this huge crime at

4:52

that time, you know, can

4:54

can be hard because it's a sensitive

4:57

topic. And it seems as though

4:59

the town of piked And specifically and many of the family

5:01

members of victims

5:03

or on the Wagner side that in previous

5:06

incarnations had been treated very poorly by the press,

5:08

so we wanted to be very sensitive about that.

5:11

Yeah.

5:11

Another thing Jeff Winkler talked to us about

5:13

was his visit in twenty seventeen.

5:15

I think this thing that stood up for me when I

5:17

went to visit was just

5:19

how human everyone was. And I know that

5:22

sounds a little trite, but I mean I grew

5:24

up in the Ozarks in Arkansas, so

5:27

coming up from the Ozarks and then spend time in Texas

5:29

and Tennessee, this is where I

5:32

think the stories are and the

5:34

coverage needs to be done more. And you

5:36

know, when the initial coverage

5:38

happened, you know, it was just these sort of footage

5:43

and quotes from sad sort of backwoods

5:45

people is how they're perceived. But

5:47

everyone there is full of faith

5:50

and humor and you

5:52

know, real, real sort of American

5:56

mentality. People I met there who had

5:58

family members had a sort

6:00

of a grim humor about things. So it

6:02

was a way of coping. And people found

6:04

faith in the local church. And you find

6:07

these sort of avenues that people

6:09

from anywhere find to grieve

6:12

and to sort of move on. And that was I think that was

6:14

the biggest thing when I went there.

6:19

Jeff Wick learned it becoming the greatest.

6:21

We popped in a car and drove I

6:23

don't know, probably fifteen hours a day door

6:25

to door to various people's homes between

6:28

Kentucky and Ohio. You

6:30

know, Jeff Winkler, he knew this area.

6:33

He'd been to piked in many times prior, so

6:36

he had already been there and

6:38

had the lay of the land.

6:39

I hadn't.

6:40

And you know, we've been tracking this case from

6:43

far far away. It's articles,

6:45

it's newspapers, it's news clippings. You

6:47

know, you develop this relationship with the

6:50

victims and the victims' families and

6:52

now the accused simply by staring

6:55

at their photos excessively and obsessively,

6:57

so for me getting there. It

7:01

was fascinating, even just getting off the plane

7:03

and renting a car to drive to piked In and

7:06

seeing the water tower as I had

7:08

seen in so many photos, and wanting to kind

7:10

of understand better where the high school

7:12

was, and you know, where everybody

7:15

lived, and I just remember being emotional,

7:18

and it's hard.

7:20

You know, we make prime shows for a living, but then sometimes

7:22

when you're submerged in the place and

7:25

you know what the grief is that everybody is experiencing

7:28

on the victim side and on the accused

7:31

side, it's a town

7:33

ripped apart. And to Jeff's

7:35

point, there's not a single person at the gas station or at

7:37

the Walmart or at the you know, local

7:39

restaurant that isn't

7:42

either a thought, you know, isn't talking

7:44

about it or thinking about it.

7:46

To your point about showing up

7:48

and just knocking on doors. As TV

7:50

producers were used to being able to call

7:52

people and book some of these shows

7:54

over the phone, piked In, I think is a little

7:56

bit of an outlier. You know, there's not a lot of cell

7:58

service there. People live in the hills

8:01

and it's hard to get someone on the

8:03

phone, and so really the only way to

8:05

do it was to show up, knock on the door, you

8:07

know, with a smat hell and a box of cookies

8:10

or a pie, and just

8:12

hope that people would a answer the door and be let

8:15

us in, which luckily the town of piked

8:17

In was really, for the most part, very kind

8:19

and receptive to us as complete

8:21

outsiders being there.

8:23

Yeah, the first place I went was Rita Newcome's

8:25

home and knocked on her door,

8:28

and she was lovely.

8:32

Invited me right in.

8:33

You know, she was in fact wearing an ankle bracelet

8:35

because she had recently been released, and to be truthful,

8:37

at the moment, I didn't realize how embedded

8:40

she potentially was in this investigation.

8:44

The first morning I was there was

8:47

the arraignment of Jake Wagner,

8:50

and it was an interesting

8:53

experience. The courtroom was packed

8:56

and completely silent. It was delayed by almost

8:58

forty minutes. It was supposed to be not a start,

9:01

and I've never sat in a more silent room

9:03

filled with people, and

9:06

it was a very interesting experience seeing

9:10

Jake walk in and hearing

9:12

his plea and sitting

9:14

near members of the Rodent

9:17

family.

9:17

Were people on both sides, where people on his side were

9:19

people on the road and side, Like,

9:21

what was your experience like.

9:23

Yeah, people were definitely on both sides,

9:25

and the Rodents was absolutely

9:29

filled and the

9:31

Wagner side was much

9:33

more sparsely filled.

9:35

Do you think that speaks to what we've been hearing

9:37

and what we've been trying to convey with this podcast,

9:39

which is that the road and family was so incredibly

9:42

close and as we were told,

9:44

family over everything.

9:45

Yeah.

9:45

Absolutely, and just the

9:47

devastation that ripped through that family

9:50

is a little hard to comprehend. So

9:53

people were definitely there. People were definitely

9:56

very sad. It was very tragic,

9:59

and but they were there showing their

10:01

support.

10:01

I remember when Courtney was at that arrangement,

10:04

like calling you just to see

10:06

what was it like. You know, again, we have

10:08

these visions in our head based solely on photographs

10:11

of the Wagner family, Jake

10:13

Wagner being the youngest, just to kind of be

10:15

able to see him face to face

10:18

air quotes, or at least kind

10:20

of look in his eyes to see, you know, does that look

10:22

like a person who could actually commit something

10:24

so heinous? And the truth is it's really an unanswerable

10:27

question.

10:33

A lot of people understandably, a lot of listeners

10:35

have asked about where the

10:37

children are now.

10:39

Kylie, who is Hannah Rodin's newborn

10:41

baby, is with her father, Charlie Gilly.

10:44

She was the infant that was just born five days prior

10:46

to Hannah Rodin. I would say for all of

10:48

us too, and this probably would apply to listeners.

10:50

To the fact that there were such small infants

10:53

and young children left alive at the

10:55

scene just kind of puts a dagger

10:57

in your heart.

10:58

So unfortunate. Sophia

11:00

Wagner, who is the child of Jake

11:03

Wagner and Hannah Rodin, is

11:05

in the care of Child Protective Services,

11:08

and that's something I know the Rodent

11:10

family is unhappy about, and I know specifically

11:13

in the Wagner side of it, Deray is

11:15

unhappy about. I think the feeling

11:18

is that there are people who are blood

11:20

related to Sofia who could give her a really good home

11:22

right now. So here's a little bit from

11:24

Deray about that. So you were actually hoping

11:26

to like take Sophia in and give

11:28

her, you know, a safe and comfortable home while all

11:30

this is happening.

11:31

Yeah, absolutely, I mean I'm a I'm

11:33

a professional. I mean I take

11:36

in children with trauma

11:39

that's my profession, that's

11:41

what I like to do. I have

11:43

two boys with me now who

11:47

have autism. They're excellent children,

11:49

they are well loved, their

11:52

proof in the pudding, and we

11:54

would have had a really good time.

11:56

So they couldn't even like you couldn't even see Sophia

11:58

if you wanted to not.

12:01

All I want her to know is she's loved. I don't

12:03

want her to think anything's wrong.

12:09

So something yeah, that we've been asked

12:11

about by a fair amount of listeners

12:13

was how the podcast has

12:16

affected the people that we interviewed

12:18

and the people that have spoken out about it. And

12:21

I think for the most part, it's been pretty

12:23

positive in terms of who we've

12:25

talked to in their experience in piked It Living

12:27

in piked In, Barb for example,

12:29

told us that she felt like the podcast represented

12:32

the town well and the story

12:34

in a fair way. Angie

12:36

Montgomery, who we talked about her

12:38

cousin Curtis and Jenny's case, felt

12:41

happy that we were finally sheding a light on

12:43

something that people haven't really been talking about.

12:46

That was a really important piece of this for us, because

12:48

we care deeply about piked In first and foremost.

12:50

We've been there many many times.

12:52

The town has been extremely kind to us at

12:54

a time that not everyone has been that kind

12:57

to them, and making

13:00

sure that we weren't coming across

13:02

in any universe as being insensitive to

13:04

the victims and the victims' families, understanding

13:06

that there's a gag order, understanding that

13:09

anything somebody says could

13:12

have impacts on upcoming trials.

13:15

It's important. The stakes are actually extremely

13:17

high, and we're wildly aware of that, but

13:19

it's hard not to be emotional about it or to

13:21

get emotionally attached to an answer or

13:25

want to really understand who the boogeyman is, who's

13:27

responsible for something so horrible.

13:29

And.

13:31

As a result, I think every time we get

13:33

involved deeper into this case, we

13:35

want to know more. Is it possible that,

13:37

hopefully the mom isn't involved,

13:40

This couldn't be if Angela Wagner

13:42

was at the center of it. Is it because she was being forced

13:44

to be so by her husband or is that

13:47

just a lie? Or was Angela wildly

13:49

manipulative and coerced

13:51

her boys in the spirit of defending

13:54

her family and defending her Sophia.

13:57

And if that's the case, what a silly plan? Because

14:00

now you're never going to see your boys again. You've all been

14:02

separated. If convicted, you'll never cross

14:04

paths unless one of you folds on the

14:06

other in court.

14:08

And with four people, you know,

14:10

if indeed they are deemed guilty, there's

14:13

the question that we raised a few episodes ago about

14:15

the informant and who

14:17

that is. There

14:19

is an informant who's been written about, and

14:22

if it is one of the four, you

14:24

know, if they've turned on the rest of their family,

14:26

how that would bear out, because it

14:29

would be hard for to manage that guilt

14:31

for years and years. Let's

14:37

stop here for a quick commercial break.

14:39

We'll be back in a moment.

14:50

So just over four years four

14:52

people, in my opinion,

14:55

packed mentality would suggest

14:57

that at some point the night of the murders, if they've

14:59

Wagner did in fact do it, that there was a heavy

15:01

there was somebody who was the real leader,

15:03

right, and that the real leader reminds

15:06

everybody this is why we have to do this. We're protecting

15:08

our own or we're protecting our family, or we're protecting

15:10

Sophia, and to some degree

15:12

everybody follows along. Again,

15:15

at four different times, somebody could have

15:17

changed their vote. Who

15:19

knows what the circumstances of were that night.

15:22

Although we're desperate to now add

15:24

four years, four years separated,

15:28

there's zero chance at all four of them

15:30

will stick to the exact same story, not

15:33

have the exact same amount of guilt, like

15:35

somebody's going to crack. If that's the informant,

15:37

it makes a ton of sense. And if that's the

15:39

informant who is either trying to spare

15:42

themselves or spare their

15:45

family somehow,

15:48

that to me would make a lot of sense. The

15:50

fact that George Wagner is requesting a

15:52

Bible and requesting solitary

15:55

confinement for lengthy periods of time,

15:57

to me, has always been a bit of a tell

16:00

you know, Jake, Yes you're caught up.

16:02

If in fact this is true, that you need to have custody

16:04

of your child and your heartbroken

16:07

and the love of your life is dating somebody

16:09

else and just had a baby with somebody else, and

16:11

it's filled with passion, it's a

16:13

passion kill. We made crime shows for

16:15

a living. Oftentimes it's love

16:18

or money or revenge. Defending

16:20

your family. This checks all of those

16:22

boxes.

16:23

But that was then.

16:24

Now add four years, realizing you're

16:26

not around your daughter any longer you've committed

16:28

mass murder from which you can

16:31

never go back. Somebody

16:33

has to crack, is my point.

16:38

Just as a legal reminder, Angela, Billy

16:41

Jake, and George Wagner were charged with aggravated

16:43

murder. Angela Wagner's mother Rita

16:46

Joe Nucomb and Billy Wagner's mother Frederica

16:48

were both charged with obstruction of justice

16:50

and perjury. Nucom was also

16:52

charged with forgery. All six of

16:54

them pled not guilty, and our justice system

16:57

presumes innocence until guilt is proven.

17:00

Can we talk about one thing that has always I'm

17:03

going to speak for all of us, but is the thing

17:05

in my head that I can never get out of

17:07

it? In terms of whether or not we

17:09

believe, which frankly matters for nothing

17:12

if the Wagoners are in fact guilty

17:14

or.

17:14

Not, it's the hacking.

17:17

Why were they hacking the

17:19

Rodent family for as long as

17:22

they were And according to the official

17:24

documents that we have seen, it

17:27

has been reported about also that in

17:29

fact they were busting into all of their social

17:31

media Why in such a mass in

17:33

such a big way too, It's not as though it was.

17:36

It doesn't appear to be Trump in if I'm incorrect,

17:38

it doesn't appear that, say, for example,

17:41

Jake was hacking Hannah

17:43

Roden's Facebook because he

17:45

was wildly jealous about her new relationship,

17:48

or that she had moved on in a new relationship.

17:51

That is terrible to do under any circumstance.

17:54

But that seems like a young

17:56

person's effort.

17:58

But it doesn't seem like that was they came.

18:00

It was a fairly high level surveillance

18:02

operation happening to all of them.

18:05

And why what has been brought

18:07

up in court is that it was deeply organized.

18:10

I mean, there were Excel spreadsheets

18:12

done, hundreds and hundreds

18:14

of entries about

18:17

child custody. They put up cameras,

18:20

and they were in all

18:22

of their computers and phones.

18:24

It was really elaborate.

18:26

It was elaborate, and the wagoners

18:28

were often together. So was this

18:30

an activity just because they wanted to

18:33

track Hannah's relationship or like,

18:35

where were they tracking?

18:36

You know?

18:36

What makes the most sense on the surface, and again

18:39

allegedly, is that they were tracking the coming

18:41

and goings and tracking the property

18:43

and understanding

18:46

the dogs. It did seem as

18:48

though big dogs were

18:50

common and we

18:52

know for a fact that the Rodents had attack dogs.

18:55

Why didn't the dogs attack? That

18:58

really does make no sense. However,

19:01

if you knew the dogs and you had been

19:03

to the home many times, as certainly Jake would

19:06

have been many times, and you

19:08

had an understanding of kind of how that home

19:10

worked and what their habits were,

19:13

it does feel like an indicate that the Wagners

19:15

were up to no good if they were

19:18

legitimately cyber stalking an

19:20

entire family just months prior

19:22

to that family's tragic death.

19:27

Clinton from Ganado, Texas asked

19:29

us why Sophia wasn't

19:32

with her mom the night of the murders

19:34

and was it under unusual circumstances

19:36

that she was picked up by Jake Wagner

19:39

And yeah, it's up for debate why Sophia

19:41

wasn't with Hannah. Jake Wagner has admitted

19:43

that he did pick Sophia up a day earlier

19:46

than he originally planned, and that so

19:48

she wasn't with her mom that fatful Friday

19:51

evening. Jake Wagner said on the record, I

19:53

reckon we missed it by just a few hours,

19:56

and by it he means the murders, and

19:58

so we don't know what happened between

20:00

Jake Wagner and Hannah Rode in the night of the murders, or

20:02

why he told her he was picking her up early, or why

20:04

he did pick her up early. But we do know she

20:07

was supposed to be with her mom that night, and for

20:09

reasons we don't know, Jake Wagner did

20:11

take her home early.

20:12

And my expectation would be if we have texts

20:14

exchanges, just based on the fact that we

20:16

know that people text so frequently because

20:18

the reception between phones can be spotty

20:21

in these rural places, there has to be some

20:23

sort of a message saying I will pick her up early

20:26

or requesting to pick her up early. I

20:28

think that is another huge smoking gun, the

20:30

fact that Sophia wasn't there that

20:32

day and was picked up by Jake off of schedule.

20:35

He's changed his story on this a couple of times,

20:37

and I think this was a key place where there was an inconsistency

20:40

about this topic. But

20:43

regardless, it is suspicious.

20:45

And we disagree on that. I think things happen,

20:48

and what seems the simplest explanation to

20:50

me is that Hannah

20:52

Roadin had just had a baby days before,

20:55

and maybe she wanted to break

20:57

with just her infant and not a toddler, but

21:00

something we don't know.

21:05

Jay from Storm like Iowa asked us

21:07

what happens if the Wagners get off? Will

21:10

they get custody of Sophia? I

21:12

can only imagine that if the Wagners do get

21:15

off, they will attempt to get back to their normal

21:17

life, and it's possible they would want custody

21:19

of Sophia. But former prosecutor

21:21

Mike Allen told me that

21:24

because they were so closely linked to the

21:26

murders, it may be difficult for

21:28

Jake Wagner to obtain custody, which,

21:31

if he's innocent, is tragic to think

21:34

that because he was mixed up in this he wouldn't be able

21:36

to get to race his daughter. Here's an

21:38

excerpt of that conversation with Mike Allen. So

21:40

let's say Jake Wagner does get off

21:42

and has proven not guilty.

21:45

So do you think he doesn't have a chance

21:47

of getting Sophia back?

21:49

Probably has a chance of

21:51

getting her back, But I think a

21:53

judge would be hard press to grant custody

21:56

for someone who was named

21:58

as a defendant in a multiple

22:01

homicide case, even if he is acquitted.

22:04

You just don't know, but I'll

22:06

tell you what, that's not going to be decided,

22:08

I don't think for many years to

22:10

come.

22:11

Even if he let's say he really didn't do it and he's

22:13

being held, you know, wrongly

22:15

accused, that he never gets to see his daughter again,

22:17

she never hear he dady like that even alone

22:19

is such a tragedy.

22:21

Well, if there's no evidence or

22:23

no strong evidence against him and he's

22:26

acquitted and people are scratching their head

22:28

thinking, well, why was he even indicted, I

22:30

suppose he would have a chance then, but

22:33

you never know, I mean, you never know what

22:35

happens in a criminal trial. The custody

22:38

battle is one that will probably

22:40

outlive the criminal

22:42

case. That will probably

22:44

go on for years and years and

22:47

years. I mean, obviously it was a contentious

22:50

subject before the murders.

22:53

Again many believe that that was the primary

22:55

motive. But that will continue to go

22:57

on. They'll probably be news

23:00

court hearings for years until

23:03

that's finally settled. And that's

23:05

a shame because the children,

23:07

if they're not already hurt,

23:10

which of course they are, they're going to continue

23:12

to be victimized, probably

23:14

for long a long time

23:16

to come.

23:22

Susan from New Vienna, Ohio asked

23:24

us when the trials are supposed

23:26

to begin, and that's an interesting question. Obviously,

23:29

the Wagners did waive their right to a speedy

23:32

trial, but now

23:34

because of COVID, it seems

23:36

that the trials have been delayed. Billy

23:39

Wagner's attorney, Mark Collins,

23:41

said that the trials have been put on hold. Angela,

23:44

Wagner's attorney, said something different.

23:46

He said the trials were supposed to begin this fall, which would

23:48

be very soon, if not imminent. So

23:51

it's unclear about what is exactly is

23:53

happening, but we do know that right

23:56

now the pre trial hearings are happening. George Wagner

23:58

just had his last week, so things

24:01

are starting to move in the right direction.

24:03

There was an attempt to be made to get him released

24:06

on bond. Seems

24:08

very different than somebody being held in solitary

24:10

confinement with a Bible waiting for their last

24:12

days. These are death penalty trials,

24:15

you know, that's not to be underestimated. Four separate

24:18

capital punishment trials are

24:20

a big deal, and one surely

24:23

affects the other, and any inconsistency

24:25

from one to the next has to be a paramount

24:27

to all I would imagine, you know, I.

24:29

Don't know the answer to that.

24:30

That's a good question because they

24:32

are four separate trials, so

24:35

I don't know actually if one has

24:37

bearing on the other. I mean, you know, you'd

24:40

assume the evidence some

24:42

of it will be similar, but it's

24:44

it's all going to be dependent. For example,

24:47

I remember reading that DNA

24:50

was there is confirmed that

24:52

the prosecution has DNA evidence. What

24:54

that evidence is, we don't know, but there's been made

24:56

mention of it, so you know, the fact

24:58

that there's differences in DNA is

25:01

going to change the course of those four trials

25:04

completely.

25:05

I was just suggesting that those four trials,

25:08

the I guess, the narrative

25:10

from each of the Wagner members family

25:12

members has to be pretty buttoned up.

25:15

If there's one inconsistency between.

25:17

Jake's story and his mom's

25:20

story or their dad's story,

25:22

that's a big deal.

25:28

Let's stop here for another quick break. We'll

25:30

be back in a moment.

25:41

Another question we got was from call

25:43

from Belfast, Ohio, who asked us,

25:46

if something happens and the Wagners are found

25:48

not guilty, how do we think the town would react

25:51

to them being back and piked

25:53

In, and would they be able to stay in the town. It's

25:56

a good question, and based on what we've heard in the

25:58

reaction to the Wagners, I personally

26:00

think it would be really hard for them to

26:02

stay and piked In. You

26:05

know, we talked to a Wagner family member

26:07

who wished to remain anonymous, who gave us some pretty

26:09

horrible details about what happened to them before

26:11

the arrests. That being said, you

26:14

know, Frederica does have a lot of land in piked

26:16

In, and they have a lot of ties to the community,

26:18

so they might that might be where they would call

26:20

home.

26:21

Frederica Wagner is also an interesting piece

26:23

to this puzzle. By all accounts,

26:25

she's the great matriarch of the

26:27

Wagner Empire, and you

26:29

know, she looks like such a beautiful grandmother,

26:33

like you would conjure up in your head or

26:35

if you were casting a movie, that you wouldn't

26:37

believe somebody could look so perfect.

26:40

She wears this little black lace.

26:44

It's not a veil over her face, it's

26:46

sort of like an overlay, but it's really

26:48

a look that makes you think, oh, she could

26:51

never be involved, and she's so beloved

26:53

by the town and has done so many charitable

26:55

things. That's a real cross section of

26:58

opinion.

27:00

So many some.

27:01

People say that she is a pure saint,

27:04

the kindest, the nicest, the most genuine,

27:06

the most charitable human that has ever

27:09

walked the earth, and others

27:11

say she's downright wicked.

27:13

I mean, listen, there's two sides to every coin,

27:16

and I think both of what you said

27:19

bears out. It really depends on what your perspective

27:21

is. If you are one of the people who

27:24

Frederica Wagner has helped along

27:26

the way and provided food and

27:28

assistance, you are going to see

27:30

the godly woman that so many people speak of.

27:33

And if you are one

27:35

of the people who were

27:38

renting land that you were supposed

27:40

to be buying at the end of it, and then you

27:43

allegedly had that land pulled out from under

27:45

you and revert back to Frederica, then

27:48

you're going to feel very, very

27:50

differently. Both things are.

27:52

True, both things are true. That's I

27:54

guess what's so complicated about this. So

28:03

you know, discovery continues, and

28:06

these trials I think would be set sooner

28:09

than later. Is I would imagine the hope

28:11

the defense of the Wagoners was trying

28:13

to move the trial outside of Pikedon because

28:16

getting twelve unbiased jurors

28:19

might be challenging, and they were ultimately denied

28:21

that privilege. That's kind of a strike

28:24

against the defense. What

28:26

we have heard from the prosecution is

28:28

that they are accumulating a lot of evidence at this point,

28:31

and much of it we can't get our hands

28:33

on. So they've been pretty tight lipped outside

28:35

of the silencers, the vests, the shoes

28:38

that were bought at Walmart, DNA

28:40

evidence that's said to be found

28:42

at one, if not multiple crime

28:45

scenes. But outside of that,

28:47

they've kept a lot of things to themselves, understandably

28:50

so, and that I think we're going to hear

28:52

about sooner than later, because who

28:55

goes first, I think is very

28:57

interesting. Who do you guys think

28:59

will be up first?

29:01

You know, I'll go just by

29:03

the arraignment, and

29:05

I believe I'm correct that Jake Wagner

29:08

was the first of the Wagners to

29:11

be arraigned, So I would

29:13

bet Jake. And a

29:15

lot of the thought is that, you know, since custody

29:18

allegedly is at the center, so

29:21

I say, Jake Wagner.

29:23

I was going to say that the eldest son, George Wagner

29:25

would be up first. But wow,

29:27

what a shocker if Jake Wagner is up

29:29

first, because then, to me, there's no question

29:31

that his involvement with the Rodents

29:34

is at the center of these trials at the bare

29:36

minimum, whether he did or did not do

29:38

it, that one

29:40

piece would follow all of the

29:42

trials.

29:43

I would imagine.

29:52

Reach out to us on our social media outlets with

29:54

questions. We're on Instagram, Facebook,

29:56

and Twitter at Pike and Massacre. We

29:58

look forward to answering your questions in upcoming

30:01

episodes. Piked

30:04

In Massacre is executive produced by Stephanie

30:06

Leidecker and me Courtney Armstrong. Editing

30:09

and sound designed by executive producer Jared

30:11

Aston. Additional producing by

30:13

Jeff Shane and Andrew Becker. The

30:16

piked In Massacre is a production of iHeartRadio.

30:18

And Katie Studios.

30:20

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