0:08

Hey

0:08

everyone, welcome to the 437th episode of the Internet of Things podcast. This

0:15

is your host, Stacey Higginbotham, and your

0:17

co-host, Kevin Toffol. And

0:20

we have the last

0:22

episode of the Internet of Things podcast

0:25

right here for you. And Kevin really wants to

0:27

call it, what do you want to call it, Kevin? Episode 500.

0:29

It just feels nice to finish

0:31

on a good high round number. It

0:34

really does. And you know what? Maybe

0:36

if we consider the podcast we did before we

0:38

created our own from GigaOM, we might

0:40

get

0:41

there. That's true. We have been doing this for a long

0:44

time. Yeah. All right.

0:46

It's episode 437 and or 500 of the Internet of Things podcast.

0:53

And this is just, this is really

0:55

just, what is it when you like, I don't know,

0:57

a swan song? We

1:00

could be talking about all this news like

1:02

this week, Arm has filed for their IPO.

1:05

That's worth noting. Brilliant, which

1:07

is a company that makes a light

1:09

switch that also has a screen that you can

1:11

use to control lots of smart devices in your house.

1:13

They just launched

1:15

a $400 smart display kind of thing that you don't

1:18

have to wire in, but you still can control

1:20

all your smart stuff. Leviton

1:22

has an outdoor matter switch and

1:24

some new smart breakers

1:26

that I'm kind of keen on since we've been talking about

1:28

energy, but we're not going to talk about any of that.

1:31

You have to go other places

1:33

and we'll talk about where we're going to send you once

1:35

we're gone because we're getting that

1:37

question a lot. But first

1:40

I thought we'd just talk about why we're

1:42

leaving and where we're going. We sort

1:45

of did, but there's a

1:47

little more to the story. We weren't very specific.

1:50

Yeah. And now we can say where we're going. And

1:53

I wrote about it in the newsletter. So most of y'all

1:55

have gotten a lot of people. So basically I wrote

1:57

that I'm a little burnt out. I've

1:59

been.

1:59

the space for 10 years and

2:02

I feel like, you know, even

2:04

last episode we talked about how it really hasn't

2:06

moved forward and I feel

2:08

like we vacillate between

2:11

putting out these products for kind

2:13

of gathering data on people and

2:15

then maybe not doing much with the data or kind of leaking

2:18

the data through security for us and

2:20

then

2:21

subscriptions and it's really confusing

2:24

and hard for the customer so it's become harder

2:26

for me to recommend that people buy this

2:28

stuff

2:29

because it doesn't feel like the

2:32

value is there for them

2:34

in a lot of cases. It feels like they're

2:36

either going to become the product or they're going to

2:39

regret it because it's going to fail after, you

2:41

know, a year or two when the company goes out of business.

2:44

And new business models really never

2:46

came about. We expected those and I

2:49

mean we've kind of just we went from free to

2:51

everything back to being subscription, not everything,

2:53

but it's moving that direction so

2:56

that's a disappointment I think in

2:58

the last decade as well.

3:00

Yeah and I really thought we'd be farther in terms

3:02

of integrating all of these devices into

3:04

a cohesive whole and we'll talk about where we

3:08

want the smart home to go next as when

3:10

we answer our voicemail but, you

3:12

know, for me it's just become harder to

3:14

get excited about some of the same old stuff. I

3:16

feel like it's probably like a smartphone reporter maybe,

3:19

I don't know, a decade ago

3:21

when smartphones stopped being like really interesting.

3:25

It's funny you say that because when

3:28

I came to GigaOM in 2008 and

3:30

even a few years prior, I was covering mobile

3:33

technology, specifically smartphones and

3:35

that was the perfect time. And when we

3:37

started up the podcast here or you

3:40

took it away from GigaOM or started

3:42

it up again, it was a good time

3:44

I thought. But now I would not want

3:47

to be in the smart home review space

3:49

where I was, you know, and that's why I stopped doing

3:51

that, jeez, like 2015 and moved

3:56

on to like Chromebooks and helping here

3:58

with IoT stuff. So I I am

4:00

right there with you. I mean, I lost

4:02

track of how many times we would talk before

4:04

the show and be like, blah, you

4:06

know, we're just like, just not feeling

4:09

it, you know, what happened to this, what happened to that?

4:13

It's, yeah.

4:15

And there are things I am feeling. Like

4:17

I am really still very optimistic. I

4:19

feel like we've made some good progress

4:21

in terms of security. Like

4:23

I feel like

4:25

matter may be a disappointment today. It

4:27

may continue to be a disappointment, but it really did

4:29

enshrine some security values that I think are important.

4:32

I think we still need federal privacy legislation

4:34

and privacy laws that's gonna help

4:36

a lot with some of the new stuff we're bringing out and

4:39

kind of mitigating some of the potential harms to

4:41

consumers as they like

4:43

get stuff from their insurer. So.

4:46

It's funny you mentioned that because now is the

4:48

answer to the question, where is Stacy

4:51

going?

4:51

Yeah, so this

4:54

isn't a full-time job. This is a contract

4:56

kind of work, short-term contract. I'm

4:58

consulting with Consumer Reports as

5:00

an IoT expert for

5:03

some of the cybersecurity labeling stuff that

5:05

they're doing. So I'll be working

5:07

on that. And I hope to hear

5:10

from y'all. Like if you have crazy ideas

5:12

about security, about privacy, if you

5:14

see new technology that's interesting,

5:17

I wanna hear from you about it. Not just

5:19

because of my work with Consumer Reports,

5:21

but I am thinking about what I want

5:23

to do beyond that. And

5:26

right now I don't know. I'm looking for the next spark

5:28

that really excites me.

5:30

And so that's what I'm doing next. Kevin,

5:33

what are you doing? Oh, where am I going?

5:35

I'm just going away. Kevin

5:39

is fading into the sunset. I

5:41

am just going away. I have no place to

5:43

go. But

5:45

that's not for a lack of trying because

5:48

obviously this was not news to me. Stacy,

5:51

as I said many times before, has always been very transparent

5:53

with me for as long as I've worked

5:55

with her, which is fantastic and much appreciated.

5:58

So I've known for as long as.

5:59

this decision has been made. So I actually have

6:02

been job hunting. I am not job

6:04

hunting in the IoT space. I know some

6:06

folks have reached out to me via the

6:08

podcast and email,

6:10

but those IoT type things

6:12

are just not what I want to be doing, partially

6:15

for the reasons that we kind of said we're

6:17

not going to be doing the podcast anymore.

6:19

It's hard to say. Ah, I'm just

6:21

not that excited about IoT, and then rush to take

6:23

a job. It's not you. It's me. That's

6:25

what I just keep saying. So I

6:28

will be continuing to create content for

6:31

the aboutchromebooks.com site that I started

6:33

in 2018, which ironically,

6:35

I started on April 1st that year, April

6:38

Fool's Day, because I just had extra

6:40

free time because I wasn't working. I left

6:42

Google in 2017, and I was a

6:44

consultant for Stacey, not full time. So

6:46

I had time. And that's actually blossomed

6:49

into a decent readership, but

6:51

unfortunately, ad rates are really, really

6:53

bad, really bad. So I

6:56

do some other consulting on the side, nothing

6:58

recent. I've actually been driving

7:00

Uber for a couple of weeks,

7:03

almost six weeks now, just to build up

7:05

some extra income while I search

7:07

for jobs. So types of jobs

7:09

that I'm looking for in case anybody has

7:11

any potential leads, I'm

7:14

basically looking at technical documentation

7:16

for developers and users.

7:19

I've been, as people probably know, learning,

7:22

learning, learning about web technologies

7:25

and so on for the past several years. Do

7:27

I have extensive development and

7:29

technical writing experience? I'd say no, but

7:32

I have proven that I can do it. So

7:34

for what that's worth, yeah, I mean, that's

7:37

all I'm doing right now.

7:38

OK, so reach out to Kevin

7:40

if you have anything that seems promising. Or

7:43

I suppose if you're ever in his neighborhood,

7:45

you can get an Uber and see if you, like

7:49

you would be the best driver. Like you're

7:51

socially aware, and you have interesting

7:53

things

7:53

to talk about if someone does want to talk. I

7:56

am enjoying the heck out of that. It's not a full time

7:58

job, obviously. I only do it. couple hours a day

8:00

for whatever days during the week I do it. But

8:03

I love it and most

8:05

Uber drivers only get like one in seven

8:07

or one in eight riders giving a tip, which

8:10

boggles my mind, boggles my mind. But

8:13

I'm at like 60% and

8:16

I think a lot of it is what you just said, talking

8:19

tech, talking whatever, listening

8:21

to whatever they got going on that they want to share

8:23

and offering my temporary dad

8:26

advice. I just

8:28

I really enjoy interacting with people. So,

8:31

you know, it's good to get out of the house. That's

8:33

a good job for you. Kevin Tofel, temporary

8:36

dad, you were such a mentor to young people.

8:38

I know in your computer science programs, you've always

8:40

done that. You you really I

8:42

wish there was that they wish there

8:44

was like a computer

8:47

science student mentor position

8:49

like at every college. I mean, it does not even

8:51

computer science. It should be there for every,

8:53

you know, people. I mean, people who are passionate

8:56

about that industry, that discipline,

8:59

I think can go a long way, especially

9:01

if they got industry experience in that discipline

9:03

to share with the younger generation. It is

9:06

so fulfilling, but there is no such

9:08

position that I can find. Yeah.

9:12

All right. And thank you also

9:14

for everyone. I know that we've been getting

9:16

lots of emails of people saying nice things

9:19

to us. And thank you. Thank you

9:21

for your time, your attention. We appreciate

9:23

you. We appreciate our sponsors. I appreciate

9:25

everybody who's come on the show as a guest. I mean,

9:28

y'all are freaking awesome. And

9:31

the biggest question we get

9:33

is what

9:35

do I listen to next? And

9:38

y'all aren't going to love it. I don't have like, I

9:40

don't know. I mean, every show is different. And because

9:43

Kevin and I have such hugely wide

9:46

interests from industrial to

9:49

weird wireless tech to reviewing

9:52

smart home gadgets to me and

9:54

my love of like business. And I have

9:57

not found one show that does that. Sorry.

9:59

Yeah. But we have

10:01

some good resources and we'll link this in the show

10:03

notes too. So you have it, but

10:05

I know y'all think you're listening to the IOT podcast,

10:08

but you're really listening to the internet of things podcast.

10:10

And there is a podcast called the IOT

10:12

podcast and the host

10:15

Tom white is a British

10:17

man who talks to a

10:19

huge array of guests. So they could be in the

10:22

smart home. They could be in industrial.

10:25

He's got shows on digital twins. He's

10:27

got shows on Snappy V. He's

10:29

got shows on

10:31

broadband. I'm going to

10:33

tell you that he doesn't cover

10:35

like the news segments, but his guests, they

10:38

can be pretty good. It is maybe

10:40

a little less journalistic. It

10:43

kind of feels very sweet and easy,

10:45

but some of my guests I've been sweet and easy

10:47

with too. So I can't really complain. Um,

10:51

that's not

10:51

necessarily a problem. I don't think, I mean,

10:54

if a topic is very approachable, fun, and

10:56

provides good information, to me that's

10:59

perfectly fine. So

11:00

yeah. And he works for an IOT kind of

11:03

dev shop. So, uh, just

11:06

be aware that there's not like a super journalistic

11:08

angle. The other one that I've been,

11:11

I actually been on it and I think it's a really

11:13

informative show about the topics they cover

11:15

is the Mr. Beacon podcast. This

11:18

is actually produced by the marketing manager for

11:20

Willyott, but because

11:22

it is produced by Willyott, like

11:25

they have a lot of technical expertise and

11:27

a lot of really interesting guests. You

11:30

do have to realize that you're getting

11:31

Willyott's perspective as it were.

11:34

Yeah. But their

11:37

focus, if you recall

11:39

is kind of ambient

11:41

IOT. So putting, they make a

11:44

Bluetooth chip that has computing

11:46

and everything. And they're working now with like wireless

11:48

charging for electronic shelf labels. We've

11:50

had them on our show, but they have in

11:53

their area, really great guests

11:56

that are very technically savvy. So I really

11:58

recommend that check.

11:59

it out. Some of their recent episodes

12:02

are like Ambien IoT

12:04

using backscatter and Wi-Fi, but

12:07

also things like the internet

12:09

of packaging with Westrock, which

12:11

is probably a customer of theirs, connecting

12:14

food supply chains with farm to plate.

12:16

So it's pretty good. Kevin,

12:19

do you have one or? So I don't

12:21

listen to podcasts as

12:24

Stacy will attest. She's nodding her head. So

12:27

I have like three places

12:30

to consider if people are not already

12:32

going to for information. I know

12:35

two of them, which are actually sort of the same,

12:38

maybe a little controversial, but I'd still

12:40

say give them a chance. Those are

12:42

two Reddit or subreddits. And

12:45

I understand not everybody likes Reddit and it

12:47

can be a tough

12:49

audience to interact with, but

12:52

there is a ton of good information there. You don't

12:54

have to interact with people. You can just read through

12:56

posts. And the two subreddits

12:58

that I often go to are the home

13:00

automation subreddit and the smart

13:03

home subreddit. And me too.

13:06

Do you really? There you go. Okay. Okay.

13:08

I don't feel so bad now. I feel a little bit more

13:10

confident in what I'm recommending. So I

13:13

think those are good places to bookmark and

13:15

just kind of keep track of. And,

13:18

you know, there's a lot of good blogs out there.

13:20

Um, no question. You know, people probably

13:22

are reading the ambient, checking

13:25

out, um, JP twoies coverage

13:28

on the verge and things like that. Tech

13:30

hive is one that I would recommend that

13:33

I don't know if it is very prominently

13:35

read by our audience. Um,

13:37

so you'll get reviews there and how to's and

13:39

whatnot. It's a pretty good community

13:42

over there, very positive and helpful. So

13:44

those are like three things or three places

13:46

that I would consider looking for additional information

13:50

in this space.

13:51

Nice. And I also

13:53

have JP twoie over Jen, Jen

13:56

twoie over at the verge and

13:58

she is actually my guest.

13:59

this week, because I wanted to send, for y'all

14:02

in the smart home, if you're not following

14:04

Jen, you really should. She is, she's

14:07

been doing this as long as we have, and

14:09

is just as smart and just

14:11

as funny, actually probably funnier, and sounds

14:13

smarter, because she has a British accent. So,

14:16

that automatically

14:17

makes her smarter than all of us. But,

14:20

she is our guest this week, so stay tuned,

14:23

you'll get a sneak peek of what it's like to hang out and

14:25

read her stuff, listen to her, she's great.

14:29

And another industrial IoT option

14:31

is the Industrial IoT Consortium.

14:34

I think it's every quarter, they

14:37

do the Journal of Innovation, and

14:39

this is a peer-reviewed, deep

14:41

dive into crazy, cool

14:44

industrial IoT issues in tech. So,

14:47

their January edition had a whole

14:49

section on the machine economy, and another

14:52

article on the role of 5G. This

14:54

is freely available to people.

14:56

I don't know how often it comes out, but

14:59

it's super nerdy, but it's really good.

15:01

The most recent one came out in April, so there's gonna

15:03

be a new one soon. That one was all

15:05

about sustainability. So, they

15:08

have a whole thing on blockchain,

15:10

prediction and prevention of wildfires. It's just

15:13

a really good, deep dive

15:15

into industrial issues, so if you're not

15:17

going there. And then, when we think

15:19

about things like design and AI, I

15:22

subscribe to a newsletter

15:24

by an entrepreneur

15:26

in Europe who does the ThingsCon,

15:29

and the newsletter is called Target

15:31

is New. And you're not gonna

15:33

find it unless you put Target is New

15:35

in

15:37

quotes in your search, and then do

15:39

newsletter. But you can also go

15:41

to targetisnew.com, and

15:44

it's a great newsletter. I

15:48

don't even know how to describe it, because it's just all

15:51

kinds of stuff. It's design,

15:53

it's Xander Smit, who is

15:55

the design director at Structural and

15:57

the founder of Cities of Things. So

16:00

that's who's doing it. You get

16:02

stuff on like cars, you get stuff

16:04

on ethics, you get stuff on AI. It's

16:07

super fun. So those are some

16:09

of the resources that I use on

16:11

a daily basis. I do

16:13

go to a lot of industry sites.

16:16

Like I follow a lot of blogs

16:18

from like machine metrics

16:20

and companies like that. And

16:23

I try to keep abreast on like any chip

16:25

news. So I follow EE times, which

16:28

is a semiconductor or electronic

16:30

engineering magazine. But

16:32

those are probably the ones that I

16:35

tend to pull from the most when I'm like

16:37

pulling news and that sort of thing. And

16:40

hopefully you'll find some things

16:42

that,

16:43

that scratch your itch. Oh, and I forgot about

16:45

all the, I'm so sorry. There

16:48

are tons of bloggers and people

16:51

who follow specific industries.

16:54

So there's smart things beat who only

16:56

does the smart things infrastructure or primarily

16:58

does that. There's folks who only

17:01

do home assistant. So

17:03

there's a lot of those options out there as

17:05

well.

17:06

Yeah. I mean, there's, there's definitely a bunch

17:08

of other sources. I mean, some of these we

17:11

use to follow along for news just

17:13

to talk about each week, for example. So

17:15

it's not like we're just throwing random sources out there

17:18

that like, Hey, you might find more stuff here. We've

17:20

actually found good,

17:21

useful information at these resources.

17:24

So hopefully that helps.

17:26

Yay. Okay.

17:29

So that really concludes

17:31

the goodbye section of the podcast.

17:33

We have had so much

17:36

fun with you.

17:37

More fun than you people

17:39

even know. And I'm just going to say

17:42

it. I joked around with Stacy before

17:44

we recorded this a couple of weeks ago. Actually

17:46

I've talked about this. I'm like, man, I have

17:49

six and a half hours of recorded bloopers

17:51

from all the shows. We should share

17:53

those. And she's like, Oh my God, do you? Well

17:56

I was joking. I don't, but I probably

17:58

could have. And we started. reminiscing

18:00

about all the silly voices that I

18:02

would make or things happening.

18:05

Like, uh, she has a bird outside

18:07

that bangs on her window while we're recording

18:09

and we would just laugh. And I

18:11

cannot tell you all how much fun this

18:13

has been just not just because

18:16

of those times, but, but also

18:18

because of those times. And I really

18:20

wish I had recorded some of those. Me

18:23

too.

18:23

Although then we would have to edit it into a bloopers

18:26

episode. And I know. Yeah.

18:29

And I mean, Kevin and I have worked together

18:31

since 2008. So this is the first time

18:33

that, you know, so I'm also saying goodbye to not

18:36

really goodbye, cause we'll still

18:37

talk, but there was a year, there

18:39

was a year we did not work together from 2015 to 2016.

18:43

It's not true.

18:45

We did the podcast while I was at

18:47

fortune. You don't

18:49

remember that. I've been doing this so

18:51

long. I can't remember. Oh

18:54

my goodness. You know what's what's even worse.

18:56

You did it for free because

18:59

we weren't, we didn't sell out. Worse. That's better

19:01

for you. Like

19:03

Michael was the second I left and could actually

19:05

make money on, on the podcast was I know,

19:08

but yeah, Kevin did this like, wow.

19:11

Thanks Kevin. No, I enjoyed it. I

19:13

enjoyed every, every bit of it. So

19:16

yeah, but we're not leaving you

19:18

just yet because we have to announce

19:20

a voicemail winner and I'm not going

19:22

to give you the phone number for the internet of things podcast

19:24

hotline. Because

19:25

it's not going to work

19:27

anymore. Shutting that sucker down,

19:29

but we've had hundreds of calls.

19:32

It helps us keep a pulse on what matters in

19:34

the industry. So that would thank you for calling in with

19:36

your questions. But before we go,

19:38

I have to tell you our winner, the

19:41

August winner is Scott. And I will

19:43

be reaching out to you to get your address, to send

19:45

you the stuff, the Phillips hue stuff. Woo.

19:48

Uh, so congratulations.

19:49

Can I just say one thing about all

19:51

those prizes? Mm-hmm. I don't

19:53

know if people realize this, they

19:55

see buys them.

19:57

Oh, they're not like handed down

19:59

from companies.

19:59

saying, here, here's some stuff to give away. And

20:02

I think that's awesome because so many people

20:05

in what we do get sponsors

20:07

to give stuff away

20:10

and all that. But Stacey never wanted

20:12

to do that. She always wanted to just say, Hey,

20:14

you know, I'm giving back to the community. Let's do this.

20:17

And I think that's great.

20:18

Thank you. Occasionally we would

20:20

have someone who, like,

20:23

I think we gave away some Schlage locks when they sponsored.

20:26

But for the most part, I'm just trying to think,

20:28

but yeah, for the most part I

20:30

do. I buy them or sometimes

20:33

like, I think I just recently

20:34

offered a Keurig smart coffee machine.

20:36

Cause I had one that I had tested.

20:39

And, but that's, I mean, we

20:41

basically always tell you where we get it from. But

20:44

by and large, most of them came

20:46

out of Stacey's pocket. And I think people should understand

20:48

that. Okay.

20:49

Well, there you go. Yeah. This is, I'm

20:51

sending this to you Scott. So congratulations.

20:54

And this last voicemail,

20:57

I love it. I don't know who you are. You didn't leave

20:59

a name or where you're from, but thank you

21:01

for letting us end on a high note.

21:03

So let's hear this voicemail.

21:07

Hey, so I just wanted to say I'm a big fan

21:09

of the show and I'm very sad to see it. And

21:11

I just wanted to thank you both

21:14

for the years of entertainment and information.

21:16

And I have a kind of a two

21:18

part question. So

21:20

what feature or set of features

21:23

would you want or need where

21:25

you would consider your smart home journey

21:28

kind of complete? Like when does

21:30

it end, I guess for you two personally.

21:32

And the second part of my

21:34

question is as an engineer in

21:37

this space myself, what advice

21:39

can you provide for future

21:41

direction? Like where do you think we should be

21:43

focusing on next to push the industry

21:46

forward? And again, thank you both

21:48

so much.

21:49

What a perfect voicemail

21:52

for the final show. What a perfect one. I

21:54

mean, that's why we picked it. I'll just be fully transparent.

21:57

It is. Actually, there were a lot of people

21:59

who were like,

21:59

a lot of good voicemails and not just

22:02

saying, well, I'm gonna miss you guys, blah, blah, blah.

22:05

It was, I'll miss you guys, blah, blah, blah. And here's

22:07

a question. We got a bunch of good ones, but

22:10

this just sums it up, I love it.

22:12

So where's your smart

22:14

home gonna end?

22:16

What does it look like in your vision?

22:18

You know, this goes back to

22:20

the top of the show why I'm

22:22

not too enthused about moving forward anymore and

22:25

partly why we're not doing this.

22:26

It's right where we were 10 years

22:28

ago.

22:30

And I wanted two things, and

22:32

I really still don't have them. And that is,

22:34

those two things are, personal presence

22:37

detection, meaning not just somebody

22:39

is here in this room or whatever, but

22:42

I am in this room versus my wife or my

22:44

kid. And two, we're

22:47

just starting to see with the whole

22:49

implementation of OpenAI, the potential

22:52

for a truly smart, smart home. We

22:54

are not there yet, I've wanted this. Stacy

22:57

has stopped me from writing the same where's

23:00

my smart, smart home post for the last four years, because

23:03

I wrote it every year for the prior six. I

23:05

let you do it like once a year, but beyond

23:08

that it's just kicking the dead horse. But

23:10

isn't it, it's just telling that

23:13

I wanted to write that post every

23:15

single year we've done

23:16

this because that's

23:18

my vision, that's what I wanted. I wanted

23:21

a home that can interpret the

23:23

data and see

23:25

what I might want next

23:27

and take care of things for me that

23:29

I don't even have to think if it's taken care of anymore.

23:32

I mean, it's just, we're not there.

23:34

Again, maybe we're seeing the start of

23:36

this with AI,

23:37

but those are the two things that

23:40

I would say my home, smart

23:42

home journey would be more complete. And

23:45

just to put a pin in what

23:47

I'm doing with my smart home, I'm

23:50

taking out

23:51

probably, well, I'm gonna take out

23:53

everything and I'm gonna start from scratch because

23:56

I still have a lot of test devices. I got multiple

23:58

networks, seven thread network.

23:59

works, I have boxes

24:02

of things that I just either A,

24:04

don't provide enough value, or B, don't

24:07

connect with what I want. So I'm

24:09

going back and resetting everything up.

24:11

It will be a home

24:14

assistant-based system. Will

24:16

I keep HomeKit as well, because

24:19

they can coexist? I may, just

24:21

because it's still

24:23

a nice user interface, and I like

24:26

generally what Apple has done. But

24:28

other than that, I think I'm done.

24:30

I'm done. OK. So

24:34

like Kevin, I would like person

24:37

detection at the person level.

24:40

And like Kevin, I think I'll call it

24:42

a closed-loop smart home, where the

24:44

sensors are gathering the data. You've got

24:46

your software and algorithms that run locally

24:49

that then develop

24:51

an insight based on that data. And then

24:53

you have a set of rules and historical

24:56

data that informs actions.

24:59

And the home will be able to take

25:00

those actions on your behalf. We're

25:03

not there yet. I also,

25:05

from my perspective, I

25:07

would like the smart home

25:09

to do that. And I want it to

25:11

do it in an interoperable manner. And I

25:14

want to pay for an OS-type

25:17

service that brings it all together. And

25:19

I'm OK paying a subscription fee for

25:21

that, because it's important for me

25:24

to have that run locally and for that

25:26

data to be protected.

25:28

There is a potential, if you develop

25:30

this kind of closed-loop smart home with that level

25:32

of granular understanding about each person

25:34

in it, that you get to this place

25:37

where it becomes coercive. And companies

25:39

can really optimize their

25:41

suggestions and insights to

25:44

you or your home to get you to

25:46

do things that

25:48

maybe you don't want to do.

25:49

Maybe it's spend more money on a certain kind

25:51

of breakfast cereal. Maybe it is

25:54

to get you to spend

25:56

an additional hour watching television,

25:58

when maybe you should have been doing that.

25:59

something else. It is those kind

26:02

of things. I don't trust the industry

26:04

as it stands now to deliver the

26:06

closed-loop smart home in a responsible and

26:09

ethical manner. So that's

26:11

what I'm hoping for, but I'm

26:14

hoping that I can pay for it in

26:16

a way that allows it to actually work for

26:18

me and not

26:19

for the companies.

26:21

It's funny that you say that because how

26:24

many, your first point is really what

26:26

I'm going out here, the smart home operating

26:28

system that

26:30

provides what you followed up with. How

26:33

many times have we been promised that? How

26:35

many times we've seen companies start those

26:37

and not deliver? Or how many times

26:39

have we seen companies start those and never

26:42

even roll something out like the

26:44

ambient OS from

26:46

Andy Rubin's group? Oh yeah. Well,

26:48

you could say it. I think Amazon was

26:51

working there with Madam A, but they

26:53

also lost a lot of money doing that and couldn't

26:56

figure out how to make it work. And then

26:58

I do think there's like, I just talked to a company

27:01

called Sandal who is actually building

27:03

that level of interoperability,

27:05

taking existing

27:08

gear and then building insights

27:11

around occupancy. And

27:13

they're focused on energy savings and clean air.

27:16

And their customers are actually home builders.

27:18

So you'll buy a home with this kind of infrastructure

27:20

in it. And they're actually delivering

27:23

real savings on energy bills.

27:26

And so I think there's some options

27:29

here. I think it's going to

27:31

be more infrastructure related.

27:34

And that's, that's fine by me. Like

27:36

some of this stuff does feel like a gimmick. And

27:38

I think there are individual devices like my, my

27:40

June oven, that I think, well,

27:44

it doesn't have to exist as part of a greater smart

27:46

home. It's just a device that's smarter and

27:48

provides something that I value. And

27:50

maybe my video doorbell is part of that, one

27:53

of those types of devices. And it doesn't need to talk

27:55

to everything else. I, you know,

27:57

I don't know, I would like it to

27:59

be part of a secure. system that does talk

28:01

intelligently to other security systems, but

28:04

right now I don't trust the way it's

28:06

going about it. So this

28:08

is not part of the question. We've pretty much answered

28:11

the question, I think. No, we haven't. But I actually

28:13

know we have. No, we haven't. We haven't answered part two, which

28:15

is advice for the future directions to push

28:17

the industry forward. Okay. Well, I have a part

28:20

three. Let's not forget that. Okay. Well, do you want

28:22

to do your part three? Do your part three right now? What

28:24

is your favorite smart home device?

28:26

Okay.

28:30

I'm putting her on the spot here. Yeah, I think it's the

28:32

June Oven. That's why I asked. There's

28:34

a reason I refer a bit because it fits so

28:37

many. Like when you think of not

28:39

as part of like a cohesive smart home, but

28:41

as an individual device, this was just so well

28:45

done and it still works today for

28:47

me. And yeah, I

28:49

love it. And I bring up the question because

28:52

you mentioned June Oven in the answer to your, you

28:54

know, the previous part and it's the

28:56

same answer for me. And for the same reasons,

28:59

it's the most used device in our home

29:01

by everybody here. And

29:04

it's changed the way we cook. And

29:06

it's been such a positive experience,

29:09

you know? I'm not, I'm not chilling it. I'm not

29:11

saying everybody should go get one, but

29:13

I'm just saying for us, it has been

29:16

like the best purchase ever.

29:18

If

29:18

it hadn't been that, and

29:21

if I didn't work from home, I actually

29:23

think like the Nest or the ecobee thermostat

29:26

would be pretty high up there because it's another

29:28

device that has delivered like

29:32

seamlessly delivered intelligence

29:34

in a way that

29:35

I don't have to think about or touch. But

29:37

for me, it's not a game changer simply because

29:40

I

29:40

don't leave the house every day, right? So I don't

29:43

see the savings that it promises simply

29:45

because, you know, I need a CL.

29:48

I think most people would say from a return

29:51

on investment slash value perspective, the

29:53

good smart thermostats definitely fit in

29:55

that category. So I totally understand what

29:57

you're coming from.

29:59

Yeah. So going

30:01

back to two because this is the last show we can go out

30:03

of order. That's fine advice for future

30:05

director for the future directions to

30:07

push the industry

30:08

forward Kevin

30:10

I know you're all about presence any

30:13

other things Well, I mean not

30:15

to beat a dead horse, but compatibility openness

30:19

Simplicity from an end-user standpoint

30:22

a true providing end-user the true Understanding

30:24

of what devices do are capable

30:27

of what they do with the data etc And and

30:29

as much provided that information in advance

30:32

as much as possible I mean, I don't think

30:34

there's any surprises and what I'm saying.

30:36

Yes, they're kind of obvious But we're

30:38

still talking about them ten years later. So that's

30:40

because the problems are not solved.

30:42

So I'm gonna go with some very two

30:45

very Relevant things that I think

30:47

the industry could do today that would be just

30:49

great from a consumer perspective one

30:52

Put an expiration date on your device. Like

30:55

I talk about planning for failure This

30:57

is part of that planning for failure It's this idea

31:00

that as a developer and I know why you don't

31:02

want to do it I get why manufacturers

31:03

are not excited about this But

31:05

just like you know when you have any Android or an Apple

31:08

phone They now tell you you're gonna get security updates

31:10

for three years on this thing I

31:12

want to know what the end of life

31:14

or the obsolescence period is for my

31:17

devices And I want that printed on a box

31:19

when I buy it So, you

31:21

know when I bought my Arlo cameras back

31:23

in I think it was 2020 2020 I

31:26

don't know 2018 2019 When

31:30

I bought those it would have been great to know

31:32

they were gonna kill that particular camera

31:34

in No,

31:37

they didn't tell me that and then everybody freaked out And

31:39

so then they extended it a little bit longer But

31:42

the idea here is I don't want to be caught off guard

31:44

by these things because my camera still

31:46

work, right? It would suck if they just died

31:49

because the company was like I don't want to support it anymore.

31:51

So that's one

31:52

expiration date on devices It

31:55

too is transparency about the sensors

31:58

and the data that you're collecting

31:59

and what you do with it. People

32:02

don't trust the makers of these

32:04

equipment

32:05

and they probably shouldn't. So

32:08

I think it's really important that you share that information

32:11

easily with people and

32:13

when it changes you let them know.

32:15

So that's the little stuff. Big

32:18

picture. I think people in the industry

32:20

should be working on

32:23

how to share information

32:25

in

32:26

different networks. So if I have a smart home network

32:28

that knows what's happening in my house. Maybe

32:31

I also have like a personal health or

32:33

a medical network which might be

32:35

made up of

32:36

information my doctor has about me, my my

32:39

wearables. Maybe it's an activity tracker

32:41

but maybe it's something fancy like you

32:43

know EKG monitoring. We

32:46

need to have that network and that data able

32:48

to communicate and

32:50

share their data in a good format

32:52

with the house when necessary and vice

32:55

versa. But we need to also make sure

32:57

we keep that data separate. So I'm trying to think

32:59

about how we share data between these different

33:02

networks because I think they should be separate

33:04

networks. And you know another

33:07

network might be your employer's network and

33:10

you enter into that network when you go into

33:12

the office but you don't want to have that network

33:14

talking to your home. Your boss doesn't need to know

33:16

that about you right?

33:17

So that's one thing I'm thinking about. Two

33:20

is scale. How do we scale this?

33:23

Three, power. How do we power

33:25

this? Energy harvesting, over-the-air charging.

33:27

Those are coming a long way. I'm really excited

33:29

about it. And then

33:32

how do we build security into

33:34

this in a way that it is ongoing and

33:36

convenient for everyone? And

33:39

then if we're thinking about things like digital twins, I'm

33:41

like y'all we got to have

33:43

some sort of data formats for this because nobody

33:45

wants to set up a digital twin like

33:48

in one program and then have to move it to another

33:50

program. That's too much. So

33:53

there's a million of these that I think about.

33:55

But that'll do for now.

33:59

podcasts on all

34:00

I could every every week I could come up

34:02

with a new thing that I'd like for us to focus on.

34:05

So thank you for that. You saved all those till

34:07

episode 500. I can't believe it. Or

34:10

episode 437, whichever. So

34:12

y'all thank you

34:15

for such a great journey. Kevin, thank you

34:18

for all of our sponsors. Thank you. And

34:22

yeah, I other than extreme gratitude,

34:25

I am so glad to have spent this time with y'all

34:27

and I'm grateful to be closing

34:30

on a high note.

34:31

Should I sing a high note? Oh

34:34

yeah. We'll add it to the blooper reel. There

34:36

we go. All right,

34:37

Kevin, it's been a pleasure.

34:40

Yeah, it's the end of an era. Never

34:42

thought even thought about when this was going to happen.

34:45

And here it is. And I can

34:47

only echo your sentiments back

34:49

at you and the listeners,

34:52

all the great people who reach out to us. Thank

34:54

you so much. Appreciate it.

34:55

And that concludes the final

34:58

news section, which wasn't about news, but

35:00

stay tuned because I'm talking to Jen

35:02

Tewey from The Verge, who

35:04

I highly recommend you follow.

35:06

We're going to be talking about the smart home matter.

35:09

She's got some hints for what's coming up next

35:11

in matter. And

35:13

thank you. Hey,

35:19

everyone. Welcome back to the Internet of Things

35:21

podcast. This is your host, Stacey Hagenbotham.

35:24

And today's guest is Jennifer Patterson

35:26

Tewey, who is a smart home

35:28

reviewer at The Verge.

35:31

Hello, Jen. How are you today? Hi, Stacey.

35:34

I am doing very well. And I'm very pleased to be

35:37

here, although slightly sad. Yes.

35:40

So I

35:42

told you guys that I am

35:44

stepping back from doing the Internet of Things

35:46

podcast and the newsletter. And

35:48

so I wanted to introduce you to some

35:51

of my favorite writers and people that I

35:53

really respect and think of as awesome

35:55

and knowledgeable about various different

35:57

areas that I cover in Jen and Stacey.

35:59

is bar none. I think the

36:02

best generalized smart home reporter

36:04

out there. You've been doing this, I mean, I

36:06

knew you at 12, 10 years? How

36:08

long have you been doing this? Am I making that up? No,

36:10

no, yeah, 10 years actually. I believe,

36:13

I think my first byline in

36:15

the smart home was probably 2013 and

36:18

we're in 2023 now. So yeah, it's been

36:20

a decade. And I've been a

36:22

journalist

36:23

a fair bit longer than that. Won't go into

36:25

decades there. But

36:27

yes, it's been a while. I've been started

36:30

out actually with The Wirecutter and

36:33

Dwell Magazine. And I've written for

36:35

a number of different publications, BBC

36:38

and the Ambient website

36:40

and a few others and

36:42

have been doing this for a long time now at The

36:45

Verge and really been enjoying

36:47

following the ever changing and evolving

36:49

smart home space along with you. And

36:51

you and Kevin have been my guides

36:53

along the way too. So

36:55

yeah, we basically started on this. I

36:57

mean, Kevin and I started doing this in 20, I

37:00

think I reviewed the WeMo smart plug in 2012.

37:03

And I used it, it was late in the year because I plugged

37:05

in my Christmas tree and like used

37:07

it to control the lights. And everyone

37:10

was like, why would you want to remotely control?

37:12

Wow, so exciting. And

37:15

I was like, wow, so exciting. Yes,

37:18

that's and it is I mean, the smart

37:20

home space always has lots of great

37:23

delightful surprises. Then also

37:25

some

37:25

not so delightful surprises. Always

37:28

something good to write about though. Yes.

37:31

So let's talk about kind of I'm

37:34

a little burnt out on the smart home. I

37:36

feel like I've seen lots of things come and go.

37:38

I feel like we're coming around again

37:41

to the just create a hub

37:43

and DIY it yourself. So we've got

37:45

all these like the Homie Pro, the Hoobs

37:47

Pro, we've got Home Assistant, we've

37:49

got all of these home DIY

37:51

platforms coming back around and the

37:54

established players,

37:55

I feel like they're kind of a little stagnant.

37:58

And I feel like they went on.

37:59

all in on matter and I'm not sure where

38:02

we're going there. So that's kind of like my 50,000

38:05

foot view take at the smart home today. But

38:07

I would love your take. Where

38:09

do you think we're at with the overall

38:11

smart home?

38:12

You know, it's interesting that you say that about the hubs

38:15

and sort of coming back. And I was actually

38:17

just saying this the other day, I said, I feel like we're

38:20

actually at the return of the hub, even

38:22

though matter was kind

38:24

of designed to get rid or they

38:27

said was designed to get rid of

38:29

the hub. But it does feel like now

38:32

to solve the problem of

38:34

the solution

38:36

to the problems of the smart home,

38:38

we've gone back to the original solution,

38:42

which was a

38:43

hub that has all the radios in

38:45

so that everything works with everything. Because

38:48

as much as I hope that this is not the case,

38:50

there is the famous comic that

38:53

you know, well, we have 10 competing standards

38:56

in the smart home and nothing works. Let's

38:58

create this one that will fix it all.

39:00

And then the solution ends up being we have 11

39:03

competing standards in the smart home. And

39:06

it almost feels like that companies, there

39:08

are companies out there that are like, okay, this

39:10

is what we see is going to happen. So we're going to have our

39:13

hub

39:13

that does everything. And

39:15

when the smart home started, or when I

39:17

got involved with the current shape

39:19

of the smart home, because yes, I know the smart home goes back

39:21

way into the 80s and even earlier.

39:25

But the current consumer DIY smart

39:27

home, you know, it was wink and smart

39:29

things and revolve

39:32

and a few others. And we were

39:34

always searching for that one hub that had

39:36

all the radios because there was never

39:38

that. And now we've actually

39:41

I guess it was just launched a few weeks ago,

39:43

the homey pro, I think

39:45

is the first one I've seen that really does

39:47

have everything in it. And then

39:50

you've got home assistant and hoops and, and

39:52

there are all these options. But these are not solutions

39:55

for the smart home that we ultimately

39:58

need and to our your question, what

40:01

is the sort of overview the state of the

40:03

smart home today? We're in this flux,

40:06

we're in this

40:07

crevice between the

40:09

DIY tinkerer early

40:12

adopter smart home and the smart home

40:14

of the future that most

40:16

people will find using

40:19

some form of in their homes within

40:22

the next decade. And you know

40:24

I don't think that the ultimate

40:26

you know everything works together, your

40:28

lights turn on when you walk in the room, your thermostat adjusts,

40:31

that perfect smart home is still a

40:33

long way away. But the solutions

40:35

that the smart home provides to

40:38

individual problems within the home are

40:40

beneficial and those are the areas I think

40:43

that we see the growth and that's why robot

40:45

vacuums are so popular, that's why video doorbells are

40:47

so popular. And I

40:49

do, I have hope

40:51

that matter will help

40:53

us bring all that together. I just don't think

40:55

it's going to do it as quickly as anyone

40:58

was hoping.

41:00

On that note, let's

41:02

talk about where matter is because

41:04

I mean I was a huge champion of matter,

41:07

I was really excited, I was like oh all the people

41:09

are involved, people were telling me,

41:11

everyone told me the standards comic,

41:13

yes. And we

41:15

might be there but how do you feel about

41:18

the rollout? Are you disappointed like

41:20

I

41:21

am? I do

41:23

still have hope, I may be being

41:25

very optimistic but I think

41:29

what else are

41:30

we going to do? You know I

41:33

don't see another industry-wide collaboration

41:35

coming along and fixing things. I

41:37

feel like this is our best hope and

41:40

I do believe that the basic infrastructure

41:42

is there. I believe that the companies are

41:45

working to make this happen and the big platforms

41:47

that are needed to move it forward

41:50

are working on it. I just think

41:52

everyone involved was perhaps

41:54

too ambitious about its early

41:57

benefits and this is ultimately

41:59

a And to be fair, to say the CSA

42:02

early on

42:03

at the launch, for example, they did say,

42:05

matter is a solution for the long term.

42:08

It's not necessarily going to fix

42:10

our smart homes today, but it is

42:12

going to make the smart home easier for

42:15

everyone else to use. So

42:18

early adopters are probably a little bit gonna be, are

42:21

still going to be frustrated with matter for a while.

42:23

But I do believe there will

42:25

come a time within the next year

42:27

or so where it is actually possible

42:30

to go and buy a device that has a Matter

42:32

logo on it, just plug it in and

42:34

it will work as has been promised.

42:38

But it's basic, you know, matter is about basic

42:40

infrastructure. It really is the plumbing

42:43

of the smart home. It's not

42:45

the fun stuff, which is

42:47

the stuff that I think gets people

42:50

like us and your listeners more excited about

42:52

the smart home, which is a shame that

42:54

we're not there yet. Although I have speaking

42:56

to the people at CSA,

42:58

some of that fun stuff is coming, like

43:01

dynamic lighting. They are

43:03

going to be adding that sooner rather

43:05

than later. I think this

43:07

is one of the big challenges of Matter though,

43:09

is it's an organization, a standards organization

43:12

with many voices. And I think they're

43:14

finding making progress is

43:16

a lot harder than they had hoped.

43:19

Yeah, that's like that whole democracy problem.

43:21

You gotta listen to everybody. Yes.

43:25

Who needs democracy in the smart home? Exactly.

43:28

So you've

43:29

mentioned this distinction

43:31

between DIYers, mainstream

43:34

users. You talk about fun

43:36

applications and kind of the

43:39

mainstream applications. So let's

43:41

talk about what the mainstream user,

43:44

what do they want from their

43:46

smart home?

43:48

So this

43:49

is the key, I think, and this is where I think Matter

43:52

is going to really help. I don't

43:54

think the mainstream user wants a smart home. I

43:57

think the mainstream user just wants a

43:59

better home.

43:59

home.

44:01

Right? I don't think they're interested in

44:03

making everything work together from day one,

44:06

but I do think they're interested in solutions

44:08

to common problems in their homes such as

44:11

high energy bills, so

44:13

smart thermostat, missing

44:15

people knocking at the door or missing packages,

44:18

so doorbell, video doorbell, and

44:21

ultimately all of those parts and pieces

44:23

can come together to create a home

44:25

that is actually

44:26

helpful. Just like our cars

44:28

have become so much more technologically advanced

44:31

and can basically do everything for us

44:33

other than, well, even turn the wheel eventually

44:37

depending on which state you live in. There's,

44:40

you know, I think our homes are moving that way too

44:42

and it's not really going to be driven by

44:45

the consumers buying choices

44:47

in Home Depot or on Amazon. I think

44:49

ultimately it's going to be driven by our

44:52

homes infrastructure

44:54

both when we build our homes, when we

44:56

remodel our homes, when we add

44:58

new HVAC systems, when

45:01

we do new wiring or new plumbing,

45:03

insurance companies are going to give us breaks if we

45:05

add connected water valves. You

45:08

know, those smoke alarms that are

45:10

connected are going to give

45:12

us breaks on our insurance. I

45:14

think there's going to be sort of almost a societal push towards

45:18

the connected home which then brings

45:20

up problems that you have rightly highlighted

45:23

many times on your show about the

45:25

concern about when these companies

45:28

have access to our data and

45:30

will they, you know, stop insuring us because

45:33

our smoke alarm has been unplugged

45:35

and so there, you know, there's concerns

45:37

there but you can also see the kind of

45:40

the greater good as well in terms of reducing

45:42

energy use which is going to be a huge

45:44

part of the smart home going forward and

45:47

aging in place which I think is ultimately

45:49

one of the best goals for

45:51

any smart home because when you

45:53

make your home today work well and

45:56

support you it means it's going to

45:58

help you stay in that. home for longer

46:01

and which ultimately, you know, looking altruistically

46:04

reduces the pressure on society

46:07

to care for you in hospitals or

46:09

care homes or, you know, we've got

46:11

an ultimate, we've got a problem facing

46:14

our society as boomers age

46:16

and our population grows where

46:18

we don't have space for everyone and

46:22

the longer you can stay in your home and stay

46:24

safely and healthily in your home the

46:26

better it is for everyone. So those are

46:29

sort of long-term goals that I think the

46:31

smart home can really help with.

46:34

Yeah and I always like, I think

46:36

about breaking it down into the smart

46:38

home today provides a lot

46:41

of information and sometimes

46:42

it

46:43

can take action but

46:47

the smart home that hopefully we're

46:49

building especially around these services like smart

46:51

energy and aging in place we needed

46:53

to gather the information about what's going

46:55

on in this home. We need

46:57

it to make some sort of insight and then we need it

46:59

to also take action and

47:02

I feel like many of like

47:04

our gadgets and maybe some of the infrastructure

47:06

that we're putting in to gather that information

47:09

is helpful and

47:11

Matter will join a lot of those things together.

47:13

The insights I think are

47:16

going to be things that come from the big companies

47:18

and kind of and the algorithms that they build

47:21

and then I feel like we're so far away

47:24

from like things in your house taking

47:27

action that you know maybe

47:29

that will never happen I don't know.

47:31

Oh I totally agree with

47:33

you on that taking action point and

47:36

as I wrote piece a

47:38

few weeks ago about my thermostat problem

47:42

where I wish it had been able to take more

47:44

action for me when I came back from

47:46

a vacation and to a big issue

47:48

with my thermostat and it again

47:52

it raises

47:54

issues but also if you

47:56

if you can build the trust which is a big

47:59

part of the smart home

47:59

The ability for your home

48:02

to be proactive and fix

48:04

problems will be a real,

48:08

a huge selling point. And

48:11

I think that is ultimately

48:13

where we need to get. Right now the smart home

48:15

is all notifications, lots

48:17

of notifications, more notifications than you could possibly

48:20

want most of the time, but very

48:22

little action. So we need to

48:25

get to a point where first

48:27

we can streamline notifications,

48:30

because it's all too easy to just ignore

48:32

them because of the overload. And

48:34

this is somewhere where AI

48:37

I think could be very helpful in the smart

48:39

home. Actions are going to require,

48:42

I

48:42

believe, services. And, you know,

48:44

I think things like home monitoring services

48:47

will expand from security in

48:50

the traditional sense to also security

48:52

of your home's infrastructure. So,

48:55

for example, in my issue when my thermostat had

48:57

a problem, if I had a home security system, perhaps

48:59

they're also connected to an HVAC

49:02

company and they can see what's going on

49:04

and send someone. But ultimately that's still people

49:07

fixing your home, not the smart home fixing

49:09

your home. But that's part of the benefit,

49:12

I think, of being connected, our homes being

49:14

connected. And I think that is going to be

49:16

a good use case.

49:19

And this is a good point because I feel

49:22

like we got very excited about the smart

49:24

home and we thought of all of these devices as gadgets

49:27

and this idea that we'd buy all these gadgets and they'd all

49:29

somehow work and become infrastructure

49:31

in our homes. But what we've

49:33

actually found is we need

49:35

new construction,

49:38

like all of the KB homes or DR

49:40

Horton that are putting in, they're like, oh, we're

49:42

going to make Wi-Fi going to be a core

49:45

part of your home. We're going to have smart

49:47

door locks or smart

49:49

light switches to be just a core part of your

49:51

home that's installed at the beginning, right? So

49:54

that level of infrastructure. I

49:56

thought I would be buying my smart home, but really

49:58

what I'm going to be doing is relying a network

50:00

of distributors, maybe my insurance,

50:03

maybe I won't even get a smart home unless I do

50:06

a renovation or buy a new home. And

50:09

that feels a little disheartening in

50:12

what I thought we'd be at, I

50:14

guess. Yeah, well,

50:16

and as you know, only 10% of I

50:19

believe that's the right stat

50:21

of homes in North America

50:23

and new builds. That's not

50:25

a very large infrastructure. Most

50:28

people in this country live in old

50:30

homes. Retrofitting is

50:33

problematic and difficult for a lot of these

50:36

larger projects like electricity

50:38

and plumbing. And also the big

50:40

sort of unknown and really unexplored

50:42

in the smart home is the multi-family

50:45

dwelling units and renters.

50:48

And there's so little

50:50

that's sort of been done for them. It's starting, but

50:52

there has been so little to date. Although

50:55

a lot of that is also new build and we

50:57

are seeing smart infrastructure

50:59

being put into multi-family

51:02

units. But still, that's a long way

51:04

away. But I agree that

51:07

this is looking at the smart home in the future. Ultimately,

51:09

that's where I'd love to see it. I don't think

51:12

that it necessarily precludes

51:15

us enjoying some of the gadgets that we

51:17

have today. I do think there

51:19

are still lots of benefits you can find

51:22

with the smart home today. I just think that ultimate

51:25

cohesive experience

51:27

is what we're still a long way from

51:29

achieving. Although

51:32

it can be done with a

51:34

bit of time effort, blood, sweat and tears,

51:37

and really good Wi-Fi network. If

51:39

you choose one platform. But

51:42

yeah, it feels limiting still. And there

51:44

are frustrations that you come across things

51:46

you want to do and you can't. And that's disheartening

51:50

for sure.

51:52

Now let's just get a little bit more about

51:54

you because your job

51:56

is to review smart home gear. And

51:58

I think the verge at it. actually did a piece

52:01

for their Smart Home Week and they had all of these

52:03

other reporters talking about what was in

52:06

their home. I was like, well,

52:07

what the heck is in Jen's home? I

52:10

got asked that a few times. Yeah.

52:14

Do you want

52:16

to tell us what's in your home? Are you going

52:18

to punt on this one? The

52:22

answer I gave most people that asked me was I like

52:24

to think of myself like a restaurant reviewer. I

52:26

never reveal my

52:29

favorite restaurant. But

52:32

because

52:33

ultimately, I don't have

52:36

one platform that

52:38

I just run my home on. I do

52:40

probably have one I would choose if

52:43

I could.

52:44

But as we mentioned, I started doing this.

52:47

Actually, I started, I think my first device was

52:49

the Wink Hub in like 2010 before

52:52

I was even writing about things, I installed

52:55

things. And

52:57

I have gone through, I have

52:58

a Frankenstein house. I have gone through

53:01

so many iterations of devices since

53:03

I moved into this house, which I've been in for over 10

53:05

years. And that I have, I am

53:07

running all

53:09

five platforms currently.

53:12

But I probably default mostly

53:16

to a combination of Apple

53:18

Home and Amazon Alexa. Because

53:22

I

53:23

really like the responsiveness

53:25

of an Apple Home HomeKit

53:27

experience. It's

53:30

the easiest to manage because

53:33

it's very straightforward. And it

53:35

doesn't have a lot of weird confusing

53:38

elements like Amazon's Alexa platform

53:40

does. Sorry, I'm going to stop saying the A word.

53:43

We color Madame A. Madame

53:46

A. But I

53:48

do, I like Apple's approach, and

53:50

I am an iPhone user. But

53:53

what I love about Madame A is

53:56

the innovation there. I find

53:58

that Madame A is actually a lot more

54:00

proactive and useful, whereas

54:04

I find Apple Home is great for

54:06

like the base. So like I have

54:08

my routines and my

54:11

sort of scenes and my

54:13

basics running smoothly

54:16

with Apple Home. And then for the kind

54:18

of more fun stuff or more

54:20

innovative things like hunches or

54:22

setting up special scenes for like

54:25

holidays, then I will default

54:27

to using Madame A. I also

54:29

use Madame A for

54:31

my voice assistant because I find

54:33

it a little bit more,

54:35

it's a little smarter than

54:38

Apple's version, much

54:41

more likely to give me the right answers, though

54:43

I could really, I often want

54:45

to stop when I get too many by the ways,

54:49

which does frustrate me, especially once I think

54:51

in the middle of the very late at night I was,

54:53

you know, putting my daughter to bed and we asked

54:55

it to play sleep sounds and it and

54:58

responded with offering to upsell

55:00

me to premium sleep

55:02

sounds. By the way, did you know those

55:05

kind of things do

55:05

make me want to throw echoes out the window. But

55:08

I would I would like to throw in a

55:10

sort of

55:11

shout out for Google

55:14

Home because I have been wanting to use

55:16

Google Home as my platform for a long time

55:18

because I really like Nest hardware. I

55:20

think the Nest doorbell and the

55:22

Nest cameras, outdoor cameras,

55:24

indoor cameras are some of the best

55:27

in class in terms of what

55:29

they offer feature wise, privacy

55:31

wise and hardware wise, although they are

55:33

also quite expensive. But the Google Home

55:36

app experience and the Google

55:38

Smart Display experience has been very sub

55:40

par

55:40

for a while

55:42

until the recent redesign of the home

55:44

app and but it's still just not

55:46

there. But it's

55:48

one to watch. I feel like it's the one that could

55:51

if Google sticks with it, which

55:53

is a big if

55:56

really, really have the

55:58

best experience, the kind of the best.

55:59

combination of what I like about Apple Home

56:02

and what I like about Amazon Alexa. And

56:04

I've used smart things and a home assistant and

56:06

a

56:07

number of other platforms. So that was

56:09

a long-winded answer. No,

56:12

but that's good. That gives

56:15

a lot of perspective. I think

56:17

both,

56:17

there are so many options and it can be hard

56:20

to figure out.

56:21

If you just don't want to manage

56:23

it, like when people are like, oh, I've got my,

56:25

you know, my mom wants some smart

56:27

light bulbs. I want to put that up for it. They use

56:29

an iPhone. I'm like, you know, they're not tech

56:31

savvy. I'm like, dude, HomeKit

56:34

all the way. Just, it's going to be easy. It's

56:36

going to work. It's not going to cause problems.

56:39

You know, if you're a little bit more adventurous,

56:42

I too tend to, I'm like, Amazon's

56:44

got some crazy stuff, but let me tell you,

56:47

Madame A is really driving that

56:49

monetization plan and it can be hard. All

56:52

right. So where do you think we're

56:55

heading? I feel a little down

56:57

on things. I feel like the monetization

57:00

piece has not been well thought out. So we're getting

57:02

a lot more subscriptions. We're getting beloved

57:05

devices that might be going out of business.

57:08

We're getting things

57:11

like, by the way, confusion

57:13

about whether Google is going to stick

57:15

around. I'm a Google

57:17

Home user mostly and I have

57:19

this issue. I'm like, oh, please don't, please

57:22

don't leave. So

57:24

where do you think we're heading?

57:26

Yeah, I think, I think subscriptions

57:29

are something that we are just going

57:31

to have to get used to living with. Because,

57:35

and I know it's frustrating, but

57:38

every time you see a company that touts

57:40

not having, you don't

57:42

have to pay for a subscription. Or

57:45

if you have concerns

57:48

around sort of privacy or data there, you know,

57:54

if you're not paying for something, you're

57:56

the product. So I feel

57:58

like subscriptions will give you...

57:59

you

58:00

will help with that

58:02

concern around the smart home where

58:05

we've got from advertising, from data,

58:07

from by the way. That's all

58:09

coming at us because these companies have to make

58:12

money. I don't think it's unrealistic

58:14

for these

58:16

companies to expect to make money. The smart

58:20

home is not free. Our homes are not free. We

58:23

pay a lot of money for everything we put into our homes.

58:26

But when you buy a device and

58:28

then have to pay a subscription for it, generally

58:30

that subscription is adding significant

58:33

value over the basic device

58:34

that you bought

58:36

prior to there being a smart home version

58:39

or is giving you value that you wouldn't

58:42

have otherwise. I just feel like

58:45

you have to pick and choose. You can't have everything

58:47

in your house or you would be spending a fortune on

58:49

subscriptions. What I

58:51

see for the future here is like

58:54

what we've seen with cord cutting. I

58:56

see bundling. I think

58:58

we're going to have to pick what we want to spend our

59:01

money on for our homes. But

59:03

like I mentioned earlier about the home

59:05

security system, I think a home security

59:07

system in the future will also cover

59:10

your home camera system

59:13

and it may also cover

59:15

flood and leak protection. I think

59:17

you'll be paying perhaps one

59:20

subscription to one company which

59:23

does give you, I would worry about being

59:25

sort of stuck in a walled

59:27

garden there. But this is where matter

59:29

would come in. Hopefully it would be quite easy to switch

59:32

over your devices to a different company

59:34

if you wanted to. But ultimately I don't

59:36

think it's realistic to believe

59:38

that the smart home is going to be subscription free.

59:41

We've been burnt too many times by

59:43

companies that it seemed like they had a great product.

59:46

It cost a lot of money upfront but

59:48

you're like, oh but that's fine. I don't have to pay monthly. Two

59:50

years later it's gone and

59:53

now you have a very expensive paperweight.

59:57

week.

1:00:00

I encourage everybody out there

1:00:02

to go follow Jen at The Verge. She

1:00:06

is just a stellar reporter, really

1:00:08

cares about this, does the work, knows what she's

1:00:10

talking about. Jen, where can they

1:00:12

find you?

1:00:13

Yep, you can find me on theverge.com

1:00:16

or you can follow me on the

1:00:18

X site, formerly

1:00:20

known as Twitter, at JP2E.

1:00:22

I'm also on the threads, all

1:00:25

those places at JP2E and

1:00:28

theverge.com is the best place. That's where

1:00:30

everything I write

1:00:31

will show up. Alright,

1:00:38

well that brings us to the end. I

1:00:40

can't tell you to go to the newsletter, I can't

1:00:42

tell you to stay tuned, but thank

1:00:45

you for a wonderful ride

1:00:47

with the Internet of Things podcast.