0:01

Welcome to the Jack Hopkins

0:03

Show podcast , where stories

0:05

about the power of focus and resilience

0:08

are revealed by the people

0:10

who live those stories and

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now the host of the Jack

0:15

Hopkins Show podcast , jack

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Hopkins .

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Okay , and welcome to the Jack Hopkins Show

0:21

podcast . I'm your host , jack

0:24

Hopkins . And welcome to

0:26

the Jack Hopkins Show podcast . I'm

0:28

your host , jack Hopkins , and today I

0:36

am honored to have back with me for a second time Frank Figliuzzi Now Frank . I want

0:38

to start off with this because this , for me , sets the frame for everything else

0:40

. He's a former assistant

0:42

director for counterintelligence

0:45

at the FBI , and

0:48

I say that because this

0:50

isn't some hobbyist who

0:52

decided you

0:54

know , I'd like to write a book . Let

0:56

me pick a topic and I'll

0:59

study up on that and I'll write a book

1:01

. Frank had well

1:05

over 25 years in

1:07

the FBI . He directed

1:10

all espionage

1:12

cases in

1:14

the United States government . This

1:17

is a guy that's been there and done that . So

1:20

, frank , welcome to the show .

1:23

Thanks for having me again , jack . I enjoyed

1:25

our last discussion and I I'm glad

1:27

you know today we can not only have

1:30

another discussion but maybe shed some

1:32

light on a pretty dark area

1:34

of our society , absolutely , absolutely

1:36

.

1:37

You have a new

1:39

book , and I say a new book because this is

1:41

your second book , correct

1:43

?

1:44

It is my second book , yep . The last one , about

1:46

three years ago , was called the FBI Way Inside

1:48

. The Bureau's Code of Excellence became a national bestseller

1:51

. This one is very different

1:53

?

1:54

Well , it is , and I have had the

1:56

opportunity to lead

1:59

this book Long Haul Hunting

2:01

the Highway Serial Killers

2:04

. Long Haul Hunting the Highway Serial Killers

2:06

. I learned a lot of things

2:08

from this book , frank , and

2:10

I have to tell you , quite

2:13

a few pages made the hair

2:15

on the back of my neck stand

2:17

on end . What

2:20

prompted you to pursue

2:22

this topic , this path ?

2:32

So there's an aspect of my personality that doesn't really like being in the dark

2:34

and not knowing . It's , I think , what drew me to the FBI and helped me kind

2:36

of move through the organization for 25

2:38

years . I'm an investigator

2:40

at heart . I'm very curious

2:43

, I'm a questioner of

2:45

almost everything . And so when

2:47

I heard post-retirement

2:50

now Jack , people

2:52

often think , oh , frank , you're writing about as

2:55

you did with your first book , you're writing about something you worked

2:59

, I was

3:01

, I've supervised just about everything

3:04

the FBI does at some point and worked

3:06

much of it , but not this

3:09

. And so when I had a discussion

3:11

with a woman who said , oh , I work at the FBI

3:13

, and I said , what do you do

3:15

there ? And she goes oh , I head up the FBI

3:18

Highway Serial Killings Initiative , I

3:20

said okay , timeout , timeout . You

3:22

got to tell me what's going on . Are

3:25

you telling me this is still going on ? And

3:29

she just floored me with numbers . Numbers like 850

3:32

women known to

3:34

be murdered alongside our nation's highways in

3:36

the last few decades , 450

3:50

active suspects in the long-haul trucking community for 200 unsolved murders along

3:52

the nation's highways , 25 long-haul truckers already in prison

3:54

for multiple homicides , and

3:56

that has not made a

3:58

dent in the unsolved caseload

4:02

. So these women are almost

4:04

all sex trafficking victims

4:06

. And when I gave you know , I gave

4:08

the FBI a chance to kind of be politically

4:10

correct and say now hold on , you're not

4:12

, you're not saying that all

4:15

of these cases in your initiative are

4:17

done by long haul truckers . And they

4:20

said no , frank , that's , that's exactly what we're

4:22

saying . That is the initiative . I

4:25

was hard , so it's

4:27

part of me to go . Okay , I know you

4:30

can't tell me much more because these are all pending and

4:32

they're really not the FBI's cases . They're local

4:34

, state , county murders that

4:36

you're helping with . So I'm going

4:38

to figure this out on my own . This is

4:40

something I need to find out and maybe

4:43

even write about in a

4:45

book . And it turned out that's

4:47

exactly what happened . I got my investigator

4:50

hat back on . I hit the road

4:52

for over 2,000

4:54

miles of riding long

4:56

haul with a driver who

4:58

tolerated me and

5:00

my questions . I interviewed

5:02

victims of sex trafficking

5:05

who had been trafficked to truckers and survived

5:07

violent encounters with truckers

5:09

. I had to learn from the top two experts

5:12

in the nation on street-level trafficking

5:14

, two professors who do amazing work

5:16

on the streets . And then

5:19

I talked to the crime analysts . In fact

5:21

, the woman who started the initiative was

5:24

a crime analyst , not in the FBI

5:26

, but in the Oklahoma State Bureau

5:28

of Investigation . Talk to all those people .

5:32

I would have to . As you're talking

5:35

and I think you even alluded to it at

5:37

one time we're

5:39

talking about multi-jurisdictional

5:42

crimes in many cases

5:44

. In other words , for

5:46

the average beat cop

5:48

, say you know they find a body

5:50

in an alley , there's a pretty good chance

5:52

the crime occurred in the alley

5:54

. That's where everything went

5:56

down . They can coordinate it off and they'll

5:59

investigate there . Am

6:02

I correct in that when

6:04

they do find a body , it's

6:07

often nowhere near where

6:10

the death occurred or where the initial

6:13

abduction occurred ?

6:15

You are spot on and that's a good contrast

6:18

. You just laid out there the city . Cop who

6:21

finds a body in the alley look and that's

6:23

his crime scene . Okay . Cop

6:26

who finds a body in the alley Look and that's his crime scene . Okay , we've got a

6:28

mobile crime scene with an 18-wheeler big rig . These

6:31

truckers are exploiting the jurisdictional

6:33

gaps in law enforcement . They're grabbing a victim

6:35

in one jurisdiction , they're

6:37

raping and murdering her in

6:39

a second jurisdiction and they're dumping the body

6:42

in a third . So you can see

6:44

, and they're often six states , you

6:46

know , six states away by the time anybody

6:48

gets this , or they're back at home

6:50

for months before a body is found . So

6:52

the police have an incredible

6:55

challenge to not only figure out

6:57

who the body belongs

7:00

, to put a name to that body , but also to

7:02

figure out who did this . And it's a monumental

7:05

investigative task . You

7:07

know how long has the body been

7:09

dead there ? Well , you can bring somebody in who says , yeah

7:12

, you know forensics . We think it's

7:14

been here for three months . Okay

7:16

, three months worth of tracking truckers

7:20

. Who what passed through the nearest

7:22

weigh station . Or do

7:24

you want gas receipts from every trucking

7:26

company in America that had someone

7:29

pass through that highway

7:31

? Do

7:35

you want weigh station scale receipts

7:37

for 300 companies that

7:40

maybe had truckers drive through there in

7:42

the last three months . It's monumental

7:45

. Companies that may be

7:47

head trunkers drive through there

7:49

in the last three months . It's monumental . And add

7:51

to that the fact that these victims , often their family members , don't even know they're missing , let

7:53

alone dead , so you don't have someone

7:56

at the police station pounding their fist on

7:58

the desk demanding answers . Long

8:01

ago , many of these families distanced

8:03

themselves for survival mechanisms

8:05

and said I can't

8:07

take it anymore . My daughter , my sister , I

8:10

keep bailing her out . We now have custody

8:12

of her infant baby . She

8:14

passes out at the table when she comes home

8:16

. How many times can we do this ? They

8:18

distance themselves . No one's championing

8:21

their cause .

8:23

So it could literally

8:25

be , in some cases years

8:28

after the crime

8:30

occurred , before anybody

8:32

.

8:32

Decades . I've got

8:35

cases in the book 30

8:37

years before they figure

8:39

out who the body is

8:41

, let alone who did it .

8:43

Wow yeah , and I'm guessing too back to the kind of the multi-j , let alone who did it ? Wow yeah , and

8:45

I'm guessing too , back to the kind of the multi-jurisdictional

8:48

thing . I'm

8:50

guessing that on situations

8:53

like this the

8:55

FBI or somebody from the

8:57

federal level you know they

8:59

don't come in immediately

9:01

on these things so initially you're going to have

9:03

some local law enforcement , perhaps

9:16

a sheriff of that county , who traditionally will investigate kind of

9:18

right up to the edges of the area that they are responsible

9:21

for , and so they may only be focused

9:23

on one

9:25

aspect of the crime , not

9:28

even realizing that there are additional

9:31

aspects of the crime . Is

9:33

that safe ?

9:34

Yeah for sure , jack

9:45

. They don't even know of the existence of the FBI's Highway Zero Killings Initiative

9:47

and the special database that's been created , been in place for

9:50

years that if they'll

9:52

simply enter their data in

9:54

, if that light bulb will go on and somebody

9:56

will say some detective will say wait

9:58

a minute . I think I heard about this in training . This

10:01

may not be a local murder , this

10:03

could be a trucker . I need to get all

10:05

of my crime scene data into the FBI's

10:07

database so that the analysts back

10:09

at Quantico , the algorithms in the database

10:11

, can start their work and say

10:13

all of what you're

10:15

telling us about your crime scene and your victim

10:17

and I mean my

10:20

nude questions , like 200

10:22

questions that they have to answer for this

10:24

to work well Like tell

10:27

us about your victim Hair color , height

10:29

, weight . Was she

10:31

nude at the time of her discovery

10:34

? Half nude , which half ? Was

10:36

she mutilated ? Was she stabbed , shot

10:38

or strangled ? Was

10:40

she , you know cause of

10:42

death ? What position was her body

10:44

? Was she mutilated ? Was her

10:46

hair cut ? I mean eye

10:49

color ? And

10:55

yes , then the computer can say and the analyst can say wait a minute , we see , send us photos of that

10:57

knot that was used . Was it a rope or

10:59

was it her clothing that was torn to

11:01

gag her or strangle her ? All

11:03

of that makes sense back at

11:05

the FBI because they can then

11:08

say we've seen this before , we've seen

11:10

this three years ago halfway across the

11:12

country and you've got a serial

11:14

killer here . And yet

11:17

so many of these departments will tell

11:19

you , look , we're a county sheriff

11:21

, we don't even have detectives , let alone a crime

11:23

analyst . You want us filling out 200

11:25

, answering 200 questions about

11:28

a database we seldom hear about , or

11:31

a big city department , if this happens somehow

11:33

in a city jurisdiction along the highway

11:36

saying we're just really

11:38

busy . You know we had 100 homicides

11:40

this year . No one's screaming about

11:42

this young lady being dead and

11:44

you know we'll get to it when we can . All of that

11:47

is problematic for

11:49

obvious reasons .

11:51

You know , frank , one of the things I often think

11:54

of , for

11:56

example , on a local level investigation

11:58

, and , like you said , sometimes it just

12:00

comes down to the they say you know we're too busy

12:03

. One thing I always

12:05

keep in mind , and not just with law

12:07

enforcement , but people in a wide

12:09

variety of service public

12:12

service type jobs . Just

12:17

like everybody else , they

12:20

have concerns

12:22

about whether they're going to be able to get

12:24

this bill paid this

12:28

month or is the interest

12:30

rate on their home going to go up

12:32

. In other words , they

12:34

have a similar level of stress

12:37

and distractions to

12:39

everybody else in the world . So

12:42

, as much as we would like to think

12:44

that the

12:46

focus during those eight to 12

12:48

hours on duty is

12:50

just laser , pointed in

12:53

on this one thing I

12:56

know that's not true of myself

12:59

, and I know that's

13:01

not true of myself , and I know that's not true of people at

13:03

large . So when you factor

13:05

in a department that's overwhelmed

13:08

, does it sometimes just

13:10

come down to ? You

13:13

know we'll get to it if we

13:15

can .

13:17

Yeah , you know , it's just a sad

13:20

reality that the squeaky wheel does

13:22

get the griefs in law enforcement . So

13:24

if there's intense media pressure

13:26

, if there is a family demanding answers

13:29

, then it's going to get higher

13:31

up in the pile of priorities . But otherwise

13:34

, often , once they determine

13:36

this young woman was involved

13:39

in trafficking , you

13:41

know , it just kind of descends

13:43

in the pile of priorities . This is why

13:46

the FBI's behavioral

13:48

analysis folks are also

13:50

in the marketing business . They have to

13:52

. You know . It's just not a passive initiative

13:55

. Oh , fill out your form , put it in the commuter and

13:57

we'll help . Oh , fill out your form , put it in

13:59

the commuter and we'll help . No , they get out

14:01

there across America and they preach this

14:03

gospel of

14:05

fill out your forms . Here's what we can

14:07

do for you . Do you need our help ? Do you need

14:09

grant money ? Do you need an analyst

14:12

? Can we help you fill

14:14

out the forms ? They

14:16

preach that gospel so that that detective

14:18

who's not focused that particular day

14:20

and has a hundred other things going on

14:22

in his life can go . Ok , hold on

14:24

a minute . Six months ago I went to

14:26

that in-service training and I

14:29

heard about the FBI program . I'm

14:31

going to fill out the form , you

14:34

know , or at least pick up the phone , call

14:36

your local FBI office . That's

14:39

one of my hopes with this book . I have many metrics

14:42

by which this book could be successful , and it's not

14:44

just about sales . It's about

14:46

the scenario where

14:48

maybe a law enforcement officer or

14:50

law enforcement executive reads the book , hears

14:53

about it and says you know what , we are entering

14:55

our cases . We have cases like that and

14:57

I need to get them entered . Number one

14:59

, number two maybe

15:01

a victim family who now

15:04

believes their victim was killed

15:07

by a trucker now goes to their police

15:09

department and demands that that department

15:11

enter their data in

15:13

the FBI's database . Maybe

15:16

you know really good a

15:19

victim or soon-to-be

15:21

victim of the trap of trafficking

15:23

reads the book , hears the audible

15:26

version , someone hands it to her and

15:29

she says you know what I'm , alex , I

15:32

cannot allow this to keep going on in

15:34

my life . I am being trafficked and

15:36

the light bulb has just gone on . I'm

15:38

being trafficked and the light bulb has just gone on . That's you know . Those are

15:41

the things that if one of those

15:43

things happens in one case , then

15:45

I'll be successful .

15:56

You touched on something there that really jumped out at me , but it made

15:58

sense as soon as I heard it .

16:06

Are you saying that there are people who are

16:08

being trafficked that might not be aware that

16:10

they are being trafficked ? Yes , thanks for going

16:12

back to that , because in my book I quote from Polaris

16:14

arguably the largest , most effective global

16:18

anti-trafficking organization in the world and

16:20

their studies and research have been

16:22

so helpful for me in my research

16:24

. And they say , absolutely

16:27

, if you were to ask many

16:29

young people who

16:32

are selling sex for money , are

16:35

you a trafficking victim ? They

16:37

might say well , I mean , I'm doing

16:40

this with my boyfriend . You know we've

16:43

got a drug habit and you know

16:45

he has me out on the street because that's how we get our

16:47

money for our drugs and he loves me and

16:49

I think maybe he'll stop loving me if I

16:51

don't do this . And you know there's a

16:53

bunch of guys that that kind

16:55

of get the money that I make and you

16:58

know well , hello , you're

17:01

being trafficked . And

17:06

I think in society we watch too much TV and movies where some kid is grabbed off the sidewalk , thrown

17:09

in the back of a van and trafficked

17:11

around the world . And I'm not saying

17:14

that that doesn't happen , but I am telling

17:16

you what is far more common is

17:19

that the trafficked victim

17:21

is recruited and groomed slowly

17:23

over time by someone

17:25

in her network of

17:27

friends , acquaintances , even remote

17:30

family members , and

17:34

it's too late before they realize

17:36

. My God , I have been exploited

17:39

here and you know

17:41

it's a wake up call for lots of people , particularly

17:43

those who think well and I had to

17:45

throw out my biases when I started

17:47

doing this because you think there's

17:49

only a certain type of people

17:51

, maybe from this kind of family , that end

17:53

up trafficked and my God you're talking about

17:55

drug use and sex for money

17:58

. Come on and then you realize when

18:00

you start talking to these victims . I talked

18:02

to one who was a preacher's daughter . I

18:04

talked to another one from the Midwest

18:06

who went to college , very

18:08

bright woman , and you

18:10

go . Okay , I'm wrong . I'm

18:13

wrong , but

18:16

the professors and the experts told

18:18

me look for the commonalities

18:21

. As different as these women victims

18:23

might be , you're going to start

18:25

checking the boxes in your head of

18:28

seeing the commonalities that we've . It's early

18:30

exposure to drug use , often starting

18:32

with marijuana and

18:44

then ramping up to hard drugs . From there

18:46

it's a series of bad

18:48

boyfriends often

18:50

that really manipulate

18:53

and exploit , and here comes the hard drugs

18:55

, and now judgment's out the

18:57

window and suddenly

18:59

you've got this pimp-slash-boyfriend

19:02

relationship . That's very kind

19:04

, very kind .

19:08

I have to assume and

19:10

it is an assumption because I don't know

19:13

this , so I'm looking to you for

19:15

the answer I have to assume

19:17

that , even though a lot

19:19

of these serial killers

19:21

might not have

19:23

gone far in their educational

19:26

path , that a great

19:28

majority of them are above average

19:30

intelligence . Would

19:34

that ?

19:35

be . You know , every serial killer has

19:37

been studied every which way from

19:39

Sunday and the

19:42

answer is they're not

19:44

all the same and

19:46

they're varying degrees of IQ . But here's

19:49

where the connection comes , I think , to smartness

19:51

or not , and that's the length

19:53

of time they go without getting caught

19:55

. So the sloppy

19:57

ones , you

19:59

know , might get get two , three killings under

20:01

their belt , but they're so sloppy and thoughtless

20:04

that they're gonna get caught

20:06

. They screw up easily . Um

20:09

, you know . And on the other end

20:11

of the spectrum , we keep . I think we've been

20:13

been inundated

20:16

with people like ted bundy . All the tv

20:18

series about bundy , oh , he

20:20

was charming and he was brilliant . And

20:22

yeah , okay , yeah

20:25

, all right . But that is an aberration

20:28

. Most of

20:30

serial killers tend

20:32

to be antisocial , almost

20:36

hermit-like in their lifestyle

20:38

. They don't have

20:40

a love for people in any way , shape or form

20:42

. They , particularly in the case of these

20:45

trucker killers , seem to

20:48

have great animosity toward women . And

20:51

some of that research is fascinating because you

20:54

often get back to childhood and

20:56

an abusive situation in their

20:58

homes , and an abusive situation in their homes

21:00

, sometimes at the hands of either an abusive and or

21:02

absent mother , so

21:07

that it's quite likely that the resentment and anger towards the female figure in their life is

21:10

eventually projected onto their victims

21:12

. I think that has a lot to do with it . So

21:15

, smart , yeah , I mean . Look , we

21:17

look at people like Robert Ben Rhodes , who I opened

21:20

my book up with , perhaps the most notorious

21:22

trucker killer , good for

21:24

50 victims 50

21:26

, 5-0 , over

21:28

years years

21:31

. He's not getting caught

21:33

. Now one way to look at that is yeah

21:35

, that's the challenge of a killer who's on the highway Everywhere

21:37

at once yes , but also kind of a killer who's on the highway everywhere

21:41

at once , yes , but also

21:43

kind of knows what he's doing yeah

21:46

, and it's interesting , they do reach

21:48

a saturation point , I think , where they

21:51

kind of give up . They're kind of like

21:54

I am going to call , I can't stop myself

21:56

, I'm

22:07

going to get caught . The example of that in the book would be

22:09

Bruce Mendenhall who finally , when approached by a really smart detective in Nashville at a truck

22:11

stop , the detective had his eye on Mendenhall as a possible suspect in killings in the Nashville

22:13

area and was

22:16

watching him . One day at a truck stop

22:18

in Nashville he walks

22:20

up to Mendenhall who's sitting in his rig

22:22

, and he says to Mendenhall are

22:24

you the guy we're interested in ? And

22:27

Mendenhall just shrugs his shoulders and says I

22:29

do say so . And you know

22:31

, that's kind of like yeah , I've

22:33

had it , I've had it . And

22:35

of course , the search of that rig

22:37

determined that there were hand-thrust latex

22:40

gloves , sex toys , a rifle

22:42

, duct tape and a

22:44

bag full of bloody laundry with

22:47

the DNA of five different

22:49

women in it

22:51

.

22:51

Holy cow , frank

22:54

. I don't know that

22:56

there would be any research on

22:59

this question , so if

23:01

not , then just kind of . I guess I'm asking

23:04

from your gut Do

23:06

you have any idea what percentage

23:09

of people go

23:12

to becoming

23:14

a long-haul trucker because

23:17

they know the opportunity

23:19

it presents , versus the people who become a long-haul trucker

23:21

because they know the opportunity it presents , versus the people who become

23:23

a long haul trucker and then go ah

23:26

, this presents an opportunity .

23:30

Great , great question . I'm getting asked this question a lot

23:32

. I had to ask the question in this

23:34

book and it's in part the nature

23:37

or nurture question , the age old

23:39

, you know how , what came first

23:41

, chicken or the egg ? What makes

23:43

a serial killer ? And you know

23:45

it's not binary . The answer

23:47

is it's a bit of both . But and

23:50

I'll you know just briefly , most

23:53

studies and research over the years show that

23:55

there's a combination of

23:57

nature and environment

23:59

that makes a serial killer . By that I

24:01

mean it could start in the womb , it

24:04

could start with brain malfunction

24:07

, bad brain chemistry

24:09

, dna , the synapses aren't

24:11

all firing correctly , the absence of a certain

24:13

chemical in the brain , or too much

24:15

of a certain chemical in the brain , or both

24:18

much of a certain chemical in the brain or both

24:20

, plus some kind of really

24:22

bad upbringing , something

24:24

that impacted that young person

24:26

, often abuse

24:29

, sometimes not , but you

24:31

know that's so critical

24:33

here . Now your question is related

24:35

to that , which is okay . You take that

24:37

person and there's

24:40

a predisposition to violence , and

24:42

do they deliberately choose the path

24:45

of long-haul trucker ? I say very

24:48

, very rarely . Here's my

24:50

thought on that . First

24:52

, we know that long-haul trucking is the number

24:54

one profession of serial killers . Nothing's

24:57

even close , wow , number one

24:59

. So with that

25:02

you could say well , there it is . Um , they must

25:04

choose the profession . I think they choose the

25:06

profession not to necessarily kill

25:08

or with the intention of killing

25:10

, but rather it fits their

25:13

personality it is anti . It's

25:15

anti-social . Um , you

25:17

can choose a type of trucking , like dry

25:19

van , just delivering dry

25:21

goods across the country . No physical

25:23

or mental engagement with your load . I

25:26

rode

25:28

a flambed which has a ton

25:30

of physical and mental engagement . You have to know

25:32

math and physics . Weight distribution

25:34

, federally mandated points of securement

25:36

for your specific load . Do I chain

25:38

this load ? And so how many change ? Or do I

25:40

strap the load ? How do I

25:42

tarp it correctly so it's totally covered

25:44

? Am I going to be able to fill up all

25:46

three of my gas tanks today or will that put

25:49

me overweight with

25:51

this load ? Is the load really 47,000

25:53

pounds or are they cheating ? You know

25:55

all of that's going on in your head

25:57

. Plus , you're getting that physical workout

25:59

, for example , a rolled up tarp

26:02

. One of them is 100 pounds and

26:05

I'm hoisting this 100-pound dead

26:07

weight up onto the trailer and then

26:09

we get it up on top of the load and drape it

26:11

properly and position it properly

26:14

to cover the load . All of that going

26:16

on . If you're doing chaining , the chains are extremely

26:18

heavy . I mean , you've got these thick

26:21

braided chains over your shoulder . You're

26:23

getting really dirty in these oily chains

26:26

and you're you know you're chaining a suicide

26:29

coil , as we did , which is a heavy roll

26:31

of rolled steel

26:33

and it's called a suicide coil

26:36

because if you don't chain it and secure it properly

26:38

it can go right through your cab

26:40

and kill you or , worse , roll

26:42

off the back of your trailer and kill someone

26:45

in a car behind you . A lot

26:47

going on and you

26:50

know probably not the attraction

26:52

for that isolated hermit

26:54

character that prefers to

26:56

be alone . But then that

26:58

person we're talking about , I think the light

27:01

bulb goes on after they're in

27:03

the profession and they realize

27:06

I could get away with almost

27:08

anything and in this case

27:10

they do Right .

27:12

And as you are telling me about all

27:14

of the duties and the hard work

27:16

associated with that flatbed driver

27:19

, I was just kind

27:21

of contrasting in my head . So

27:24

when I and we can go more

27:26

into this but when I think about the

27:28

physical work

27:31

required to keep

27:34

someone captive , you

27:36

know , the potential is there and

27:38

I've got to think okay , if

27:41

I'm 300 plus pounds , out

27:44

of shape , eat a horrible diet

27:47

, get winded when I walk from the cab

27:49

to the restaurant , I'm

27:52

probably not a guy , even if

27:54

it's an inclination

27:56

I have that's

27:58

going to want to have to do all

28:01

that hard work . But if I'm

28:03

a guy who drives a flatbed truck

28:05

, I stay in pretty good

28:07

shape . I can lift heavy loads

28:10

. I've got that work mentality

28:12

. Plus I can calculate and plan

28:14

and be strategic about things . About

28:25

things , yeah , when you compare the two

28:27

, one seems , at least to me , far more likely than the other .

28:28

So I like the way you're thinking , yeah

28:30

, I like the way you're thinking through this , jack

28:33

, because that's the kind of thought process

28:35

that I went through and you know , that's

28:37

the kind of thought processes that the crime

28:40

analysts are going through back at the

28:42

FBI and one of the

28:44

things you know not to have

28:46

a spoiler alert here , but I will

28:48

tell you just when I

28:50

came close to saying , okay , this is it , I

28:52

got it . I think it's the dry banners , mostly

28:55

, you know , and I think

28:57

it's probably less likely to be a corporate

29:00

driver because they're so heavily tracked

29:02

through technology . Well

29:05

then I'd find cases that are the exception

29:08

. We're a corporate driver

29:10

who's heavily tracked and logged GPS

29:13

. The company knows where they are every time . He'd

29:16

park his truck at a truck stop for his federally

29:18

mandated downtime . Then he'd go

29:20

on an Uber or a rental car and he'd park his truck at a truck stop for his federally mandated downtime and then go in an Uber or a rental

29:23

car and kill somebody . With regard to your theory

29:25

, you make a good case for the physical

29:27

dexterity or ability to

29:29

subdue and abduct somebody , but

29:32

again , for me , I

29:34

think there are always exceptions , but

29:37

I think it is that dry

29:39

banner . Who is obsessing has all the time

29:41

in the world to obsess , and

29:43

all of that . Yes , if I'm assigned

29:46

450 suspects , I'm

29:48

going to narrow it down . You better believe it . And that was part

29:50

of my process in the book . I

29:52

just naturally had to winnow this thing

29:54

down . And you know , would

29:56

I look at corporate drivers first ? No , I

29:58

would not . Would I look

30:00

at 300-pound fat out

30:03

look at corporate drivers first ? No , I would not . Would I look

30:05

at 300 pound fat out of shape guys ? No , probably not . So

30:08

that's helpful . But with regard

30:10

to a saying

30:12

well , flag bettors are so physical and

30:14

smart , it's probably them . I

30:17

think not . I think not

30:19

. They're too engaged , they've got

30:22

things to do , places to be , lots

30:25

of work , and time

30:27

is money for them . It's very different than the

30:30

dry banners . But again , I'll guarantee

30:32

you , just as soon as you get close to a theory , you'll

30:34

find the exception to that

30:36

theory .

30:37

And here's what's fascinating to me as

30:39

you're going through that You're

30:42

a retired FBI agent , assistant

30:46

director for counterintelligence . You

30:48

know your craft , you

30:52

were very good at your craft , and

30:56

yet I

30:58

see you work through that algorithm and

31:02

I see your mind

31:04

, as you're doing so , kind of going

31:06

like this because

31:10

even for a guy like you , there is

31:12

no hard and fast

31:15

rule that says that

31:18

guy , if

31:20

we yeah , I mean you

31:23

can see how difficult and challenging

31:25

this is and why the FBI's help is needed

31:27

here , because if it were easy , this

31:30

initiative wouldn't have to

31:32

still be in existence since 2004,

31:35

.

31:35

Jack , I mean 2004 , jack , I mean 2004,

31:38

. And they haven't figured out some kind of formula

31:40

to this . They're

31:47

still genuinely flummoxed and have results

31:49

. Now it's all going back to the crime scene and have

31:51

the victimology study they call it victimology

31:54

where the dead victim can actually speak

31:56

and say , through that crime scene

31:59

, this is who killed me . Similarly

32:01

, the methodology of the killer very

32:04

important . But yes

32:06

, if you get in the weeds and start , you've got

32:08

some suspects in a particular case and

32:10

you have certain commonalities . Just like

32:12

I told you , the victims have certain

32:14

commonalities to look for that early childhood trauma

32:16

, trauma stacked up in the family

32:19

, abuse , boyfriend

32:21

drugs . Ok , let's go now

32:24

and try to narrow the suspects down , because

32:26

I do ask about the victims which

32:28

victim in which kind of trafficking

32:31

style is more likely

32:33

to be killed , is more likely to be killed ? I get deep into

32:35

that and we could go there . You know , with

32:39

regards to what I learned about the different work

32:41

styles of traffic victims , there are pimp

32:44

control and there are two kinds

32:46

of pimp control . You know there's

32:48

a guerrilla pimp and there's a finesse pimp . There

32:51

is something called a woman , or

32:54

anyone boy or trans , who's

32:56

called a renegade , that

32:59

operates without a pimp , maybe

33:01

with a butt , and

33:03

maybe often leaves the pimp work

33:06

style because they're fed up with the abuse and

33:08

saying I can do this on my own and pocket

33:11

my money , right . Or the third type

33:13

, called an outlaw , that is net

33:15

, that's never going to have sex for money , but rather

33:17

is going to trick you and is going to rip

33:19

you off . They're going to take your cash , um

33:21

, and you might say , hearing that , oh

33:24

well , okay , the trafficking victim

33:26

more likely to be killed is the outlaw . She's pissing off

33:28

a trucker , um

33:30

, and , and taking his wallet . No

33:33

, not really , because what's going to happen

33:35

there ? Is that guy going to

33:37

report to the police that he got

33:39

robbed ? Is he going to

33:41

be able to kill her ? She's highly

33:44

skilled at escaping that truck

33:46

or that hotel room with that cash

33:48

. She's done this before . She's got a helper

33:51

. So you get into

33:53

that , just as I did it with truckers , and

33:55

so I did ask

33:57

the question which kind of trucker is

33:59

more likely to kill ? And

34:02

I have theories .

34:03

Like I said , what did

34:05

you find , if anything , about

34:08

the willingness

34:10

to accept some responsibility

34:12

by the truck lines

34:15

themselves or the trucking industry

34:17

?

34:18

Yeah , and before we jump on that , let

34:20

me finish the thought on it , because I barely answered

34:22

your question about

34:24

. You know , I was starting to bring up commonalities

34:27

. Just like with the victims , there

34:29

are commonalities with the truckers and some

34:32

of this came straight from women I

34:34

interviewed who were victims and survived

34:37

. Alcohol abuse is

34:39

huge for the

34:41

women who tell

34:43

me they're more afraid of

34:45

an alcoholic trucker than they are

34:47

a trucker using drugs and

34:50

the use of drugs even

34:52

with the victim is

34:55

very common , by the way but

34:58

they tell me it's the

35:00

alcoholic who becomes violent

35:02

and abusive . And

35:05

then , even if they quote unquote , have regulars

35:08

who are truckers . If they

35:10

start hearing the personal story of

35:13

I can't stay in a relationship

35:16

. Women are bitches to me

35:18

. You know my ex-wife said

35:20

blah blah , blah , blah . Uh

35:23

, my mom beat me . Okay

35:25

now . Now you've got a problem on your hands

35:27

, right , um , and they , their spidey

35:29

sense will will kick into gear

35:31

. The problem with the spidey

35:33

sense is they're high

35:36

on drugs themselves most

35:38

of the time that they're doing that

35:40

transaction , so their judgment

35:43

flies out the window . You

35:45

know there's one victim I learned about

35:47

, who you know apparently thought it was a good idea to

35:49

let the guy duct tape her legs

35:51

. You know well , she was

35:53

high she . You know in in retrospect

35:56

she got out by the skin of her teeth

35:58

or she would be dead . But you

36:00

go , that's really stupid . And then you realize

36:02

I'm really high , so you

36:05

know it's a problem there

36:07

. But now let's switch gears . Um

36:10

you , you had asked a new question gosh

36:15

, I'm gonna have to .

36:17

I'm gonna ask a different one until I get back

36:19

on track with that one and remember what

36:21

it was . Do

36:23

you find that once

36:26

somebody has been , for lack of

36:28

better words , abducted whether

36:31

they realize they have or not

36:33

, whether lured in , however

36:35

it happens yeah , if

36:38

they are kept for any length of time

36:40

, do you find any kind

36:42

of like Stockholm

36:44

syndrome kind of starting

36:46

to factor in ?

36:49

It starts early , because if you've got the

36:51

right young person that

36:53

you're you grabbed on to , there's

36:57

a lack . They're lacking something

36:59

in their lives that often

37:02

the pimp or the boyfriend slash

37:04

, groomer , pimp is

37:06

satisfying for them . So

37:08

this becomes even an abusive relationship

37:11

, which is very common . Now

37:13

we seem to associate abuse

37:15

with the only kind of affection . I know I

37:18

have no human touch , except when I get beaten

37:20

or raped by my pet . And

37:23

guess what ? When the police arrest me for

37:25

traffic , for prostitution , guess

37:28

who comes and bails me out ? My

37:30

pet , not my family . So

37:33

, yes , stockholm

37:36

Syndrome kicks in and you think

37:38

I can't get out . They've got my . This

37:40

is very common . They take your ID

37:42

, your Social Security card

37:44

, your driver's license , your phone . They

37:46

own you . So go ahead . You

37:48

know some people will tell their women

37:51

in their stable it's called a stable Go

37:54

ahead , knock yourselves out . Where are you

37:56

going to go ? Where are you going to buy your

37:58

drugs ? I give you your drugs . How

38:00

are you going to feed yourself ? So

38:02

yes , absolutely . This is why the

38:05

partnership I talk about in the book between the

38:07

police and social service organizations

38:10

is so critical , and

38:12

it is working in many cities , including

38:14

Phoenix and Toledo and Las

38:17

Vegas , where the police

38:19

will partner with the social service

38:21

organizations and , instead of slapping handcuffs

38:23

on a trafficking victim , they'll

38:25

say we're not arresting you tonight . What

38:28

do you need to get out from under

38:30

this trap you're in Because I

38:32

have a social services partner here . Well

38:35

, I got to get away from my pimp . I need a place

38:37

to sleep . We have that for

38:39

you . We have it . Okay , I

38:42

need diapers for my infant baby . We

38:44

have that . Well , someday

38:46

I'd like to be a hair cutter or paralegal

38:48

. I need a certificate training . We

38:51

have people in the community who are going to front the

38:53

bill for that , so that

38:56

system works . And then , from a law enforcement

38:58

perspective , I've seen this work . By the way , when

39:00

I was special agent in charge in northern Ohio

39:02

, I saw it working in Toledo

39:04

, a major hub of trafficking , by

39:06

the way , because of the intersection of highways , buses

39:08

and trains and proximity

39:10

to Detroit . I saw

39:13

this work where , eventually

39:15

, the trust now is developed between the

39:17

victim , the social worker and

39:20

the police detective . So

39:22

eventually that victim says I

39:24

will now tell you who my pimp

39:26

was , how big the operation is

39:28

and

39:31

the stories that come out of that . We

39:39

had stories out of Toledo , ohio , nationwide trafficking organizations that we took

39:41

down because of that trust that we developed , even organizations that would take their

39:43

stable , their victims , from Ohio and

39:46

get them to the Super Bowl or

39:49

National Political Convention and

39:51

traffic them there , particularly

39:54

underage women .

39:56

Wow , as you're saying that , I'm thinking you

39:58

know what , if I'm homeless

40:02

or near homeless and I'm hitchhiking

40:04

, one

40:06

of the places that's going to appeal

40:09

to me is just as you described in Toledo

40:11

, where a lot of places

40:13

intersect highways

40:15

, trains there's

40:18

a lot of opportunity there to

40:20

get a ride for one . So

40:23

if I put on the serial

40:25

killer hat , then I'm

40:28

looking at that , saying there

40:30

will be more people than

40:32

usual in this location

40:34

needing rides or looking

40:36

for rides . So is that kind of like

40:38

a fly trap ?

40:40

so to speak Absolutely

40:43

. And if you think this doesn't happen

40:45

in my city , but you've got

40:47

intersections of major highways , major

40:50

train routes and bus stations , you

40:52

have trafficking and the truckers know that and

40:55

, yes , it's a target of opportunity

40:57

, is what the analysts are telling you . You'll

40:59

have a target-rich environment for

41:01

that trucker in that area . They

41:03

know it . And yes , in Toledo there

41:05

have been serial killer

41:07

cases that I've studied

41:10

where indeed it

41:12

was like grabbing fish in a barrel

41:15

, so to speak .

41:16

Indeed , it was like grabbing fish in a barrel

41:18

, so to speak . Right , yeah

41:23

, it's interesting because about 10 years ago I lived in Springfield , missouri , and there's

41:25

so much meth there . At the time and I don't think it's

41:27

changed that meth

41:30

was called 417

41:32

, which was the area code for

41:35

that area , and I was at a gas

41:37

pump one day and a a deputy pulled up and

41:39

I'm just talking to him and I

41:41

asked him approximately how many

41:43

stops that you make are

41:45

meth-related and I was blown

41:48

away . He said one out of three

41:50

. One out of three . And

41:52

then I asked him the next question was what

41:55

makes this area of

41:57

the state so rife

41:59

with meth ? One

42:02

answer Interstate 44

42:04

and Interstate 65 cross

42:06

right there Two major

42:09

moving drugs in and out . That

42:11

was it .

42:12

Think about it . If it works for the trucking industry

42:14

, it works for drug traffickers , right ? It's

42:17

the same route and the state

42:19

patrol officers in those states

42:21

, like Ohio , like Missouri

42:24

, they know it . They

42:26

pull cars over all the time and they can sense

42:29

they've got a car with dope in it . So

42:31

, yeah , and the use

42:33

of meth as a control mechanism over

42:36

the women by the pimps

42:38

? Absolutely yeah , I

42:40

keep you supplied and you keep making money

42:42

for me , but you know we come down

42:44

to this . We're having this discussion

42:47

, Jack , in an environment right now where

42:49

we still have politicians

42:51

of a certain ilk calling

42:53

to defund the FBI , of a

42:55

certain ilk calling to defund the FBI , Right . And

43:00

my question to them is I know a lot of this is posturing and I know it's because the FBI is investigating

43:03

them or their cohort . But

43:05

what part of the FBI do you

43:07

want to defund ? Exactly the part that's

43:09

investigating corrupt Republicans

43:11

, corrupt Democrats . Because

43:14

, by the way , as we speak , there are serious corruption

43:16

investigations going on right now in the FBI on

43:18

both parties . Right , we've

43:20

got Senator Menendez . There's a Texan

43:23

Democratic Congressman

43:25

, quaylar is under investigation . So please

43:27

don't tell me that you don't like the FBI

43:29

because they focus on one party . Is

43:32

it the part of the FBI that works the Highway Serial , highway Zero

43:34

Killings Initiative ? You want them cut off of funding

43:37

, because right now , the FBI budget

43:39

is $500

43:43

million under what

43:46

the FBI says they need to do

43:48

their mission . Which part of the FBI

43:50

do you want to defund ? I hope not this

43:53

one , but I hope not anyone .

43:56

Wow , that's

43:58

mind-boggling . Let's go

44:01

one step further with the mind-boggling

44:03

and I'm asking you

44:05

to kind of project and speculate a little

44:07

bit . I know , but let's

44:09

just take it to the extent

44:12

that they say at least that they

44:14

want to take it to . And , like you said , a

44:16

lot of it is posturing . But

44:18

let's just say they did defund

44:22

the FBI , just

44:24

defunded the FBI . Is

44:28

there any way of even being

44:30

able to get our arms around

44:32

all

44:34

of the societal

44:37

devastation that one

44:39

act would cause ?

44:42

So there's even talk . You

44:44

know , because there are some people out there going well , you can't

44:46

technically defund the

44:48

entire FBI . It exists

44:50

in law and you know

44:52

it's part of the executive branch . Well , right

44:54

now , as we speak , there are people

44:56

around Donald Trump saying that , yeah , you know

44:58

what , we're going to move the FBI from outside

45:01

the DOJ and the

45:03

Attorney General and we're going to put it under

45:05

the White House . So now , essentially

45:08

, you've created a special police

45:10

, a secret police , right ?

45:12

the KGB .

45:14

Yeah , it's an FSB KGB

45:16

. They do it in Russia

45:18

, they do it in China and the history of it is pretty darn ugly

45:20

, because you're actually talking about

45:22

just just going after your enemies . So

45:25

so what does that look like if you severely

45:27

cut or defund the FBI ? You

45:30

know how that's going to look in

45:32

an administration that doesn't adhere

45:34

to the Constitution . It's going to look like only

45:36

do what I tell you to do . And

45:38

what does that look like ? The FBI is stretched

45:40

extremely thin right now . They're telling

45:43

us that they're buried in domestic

45:45

terrorism issues . They're buried with

45:47

Chinese cybercrime and hacking

45:50

, russian and Iran and North Korea

45:52

hacking . They've got spying . And

45:54

look what happened in the last week

45:56

. We learned that the FBI

45:58

took down eight Tajikis

46:00

from Tajikistan who have

46:02

ISIS affiliation and

46:05

who came across the southern border . The

46:08

FBI did that . The FBI went

46:10

to the Customs and Border Patrol and said , hey

46:13

, hey , hey , you

46:15

let these people in . By

46:18

the way , they didn't sneak in . They went through CBP

46:20

and had background checks that were clean

46:22

. One of them even used the

46:24

CBP One app to schedule

46:27

an appointment for asylum

46:29

claim , right ? So it was the FBI

46:31

that apparently people want to defund that stopped a likely terrorist attack from happening

46:33

. Is that the part of the FBI people want to defund that stopped a likely

46:35

terrorist attack from happening . Is that

46:37

a part of the FBI you want to defund ? So

46:40

if you're just doing one

46:42

or two things you know , just do . If the president

46:45

says , just do violent crime , that's it . I

46:47

don't want to hear about corruption . I don't want to hear

46:49

about Russia spying they're my friend

46:51

. Well , you get what you ask

46:53

for and we're likely to

46:55

have the ball drop in a very

46:57

big , disturbing way .

46:59

Right , one last question for

47:02

you , frank , and I asked

47:04

this question of you before

47:06

we even started to recording

47:08

and I asked the question . I said do

47:12

you have any knowledge or

47:14

crosstalk within the

47:17

FBI now where there are people

47:19

legitimately concerned

47:22

about the defunding

47:24

of the FBI ?

47:26

And you told me yeah

47:29

yeah , listen

47:35

whenever chris ray , the director , is testifying before congress , because he's

47:37

being very bold unusually bold for an fbi director in

47:40

the threat level and how thinly

47:42

they're stretched right now . Number one , number two when

47:45

I do um , I talk to people

47:47

in field offices who actually

47:49

are where the rubber meets the road . It's in your

47:51

local field office , right . They

47:53

are inundated with

47:56

threats , domestic threats , threats , threats

47:58

against them , threats against judges , threats

48:00

against election volunteers

48:02

and officials , threats

48:04

to the election and almost

48:07

to the exception of everything else going

48:10

on in that goddarn office . And so you have

48:12

to ask yourself what is not being

48:14

investigated right now ? What

48:16

about the violent gang ? What

48:18

about the drug distribution place

48:21

near my school , my kid's school

48:23

? What about civil rights

48:25

?

48:29

What about bad cops ? They're buried

48:31

in threat right now and this comes right back to your

48:33

book Somebody's missing . Comes

48:38

right back to your book . Somebody's missing , but right now , in this pre-election run-up , where we've got

48:40

active threats against judges , prosecutors

48:42

, juries , when

48:46

you have to decide , this

48:48

is how many people we have out

48:50

of this field office . Here are

48:52

the investigations

48:55

we've got . Here's the priority level

48:57

of each and sorry

48:59

, but this missing person we'll

49:02

have to get to it later .

49:04

Exactly right . You know you have to decide

49:06

whether you're for national security

49:09

or not , whether you're for your

49:11

neighborhood and communities being

49:13

safe and secure or not . You're

49:15

for the FBI supporting your local

49:18

law enforcement in ways you don't even hear about

49:20

, like this initiative but so

49:22

many , many more , through task forces and

49:24

grant money , and you've

49:27

got to be reasonable about it . I don't care

49:29

if you're on that side of the political

49:31

aisle that says the FBI is overreached . I

49:33

don't like this . Do you like

49:36

the fact that the FBI is being attacked

49:38

and can't do its job in your community

49:40

? That's the question to ask .

49:42

Right , frank , thank you so

49:45

much for writing this

49:47

book that a lot of people didn't even

49:49

know needed to be written

49:51

, and I think that's an important thing

49:54

. If nothing else , you're

49:56

bringing the awareness of

49:58

this , as

50:00

you say , dark kind of corner

50:03

of the world to light

50:05

and then kind

50:07

of giving a pathway

50:10

, if you will , to learning about

50:12

how to avoid it and

50:15

everything that goes

50:17

with that in terms of who the

50:19

victims are , who the perpetrators

50:22

are . So thank you so

50:24

much for writing this book . Where can people

50:26

get your book ?

50:28

Yeah , it's been out now for three weeks

50:30

and we are now

50:33

, to my amazement , in our third printing

50:36

in just three weeks . Pretty

50:38

unusual . And you can grab

50:40

it at anywhere you buy books Amazon

50:43

, of course , but also Barnes

50:45

, noble , of course , and Books A Million

50:47

, but also , if you want to support your local independent

50:49

bookstore , fantastic , get

50:51

it there , just get it . It's also in audible fashion

50:54

. I've read it myself . It

50:56

took me three days to read it

50:59

. I enjoyed that process . So

51:01

do that . And if you're interested in more

51:03

about this or just want to keep up with me , you can go

51:06

to my website , frankfigluzzicom

51:08

, and sign up for free for regular

51:11

alerts . It has all my clips from TV

51:14

, my appearances , my regular columns that I write

51:16

for MSNBC Daily , and

51:18

you can find me on social media , on Instagram

51:21

and threads , and even X , until

51:23

I can't tolerate it anymore .

51:25

Perfect , I hear you , frank

51:27

. Thank you for being

51:30

willing to come on and do a second episode

51:32

on the Jack Hopkins Show podcast . I really

51:34

appreciate it and and uh

51:36

, more than anything I've , I've enjoyed getting

51:39

to know you and Same here .

51:41

Same here , jeff . Thank you , I look forward to doing it

51:43

anytime .

51:44

All right .

51:45

Thank you , Frank Take care .

51:46

Bye We'll see you next

51:59

time

52:09

.