0:00

And the one thing I say is, look, stress

0:02

is going to happen. Let's

0:04

expect it. Let's accept it. Even

0:06

with training, you're going to have a stress response.

0:09

But I want you to be in control

0:11

of how long it lasts and be

0:14

able to return to baseline as quickly

0:16

as possible or as quickly as you need to be.

0:34

Welcome to The Knowledge Project, a

0:36

podcast about mastering the best

0:38

of what other people have already figured out so

0:41

you can apply their insights to

0:43

your life.

0:44

I'm your host, Shane Parish.

0:47

If you're listening to this, you're missing out. If

0:49

you'd like access to the podcast before

0:51

public release, special episodes

0:54

that don't appear anywhere else,

0:56

hand-edited transcripts, or you just

0:58

want to support the show you love, you

1:01

can join at fs.blog.com.

1:04

Check out the show notes for a link.

1:07

My guest today is Dr. Leah

1:09

Lagos and Boston Celtics

1:12

coach Joe Mezula.

1:15

Leah Lagos is a licensed clinical

1:17

psychologist who specializes in health

1:20

and performance psychology and is known for

1:22

her pioneering work in heart rate

1:24

variability biofeedback.

1:27

Dr. Lagos treats a broad range

1:29

of disorders and performance challenges.

1:31

Her expertise includes strategies to reduce

1:33

anxiety, boost resilience

1:35

to adversity, and enhance

1:37

health. Joe is the youngest

1:40

coach in the NBA and he's an advocate

1:42

of Dr. Lagos' approach and

1:44

an example of how performance psychology plays

1:46

out in the real world. I've been talking to a lot

1:48

of top coaches about performance

1:51

and how we can do better and one

1:53

of the keys to clear thinking is

1:55

managing your emotions and this

1:57

episode will help you. You'll

1:59

change your... narrative about stress, plan for

2:01

it and master it. It's

2:04

time to listen and

2:06

learn. The

2:14

Knowledge Project is sponsored by Metalab.

2:16

For a decade, Metalab has helped some of the world's

2:19

top companies and entrepreneurs build products

2:21

that millions of people use every day. You

2:23

probably didn't realize that at the time, but odds

2:25

are you've used an app that they've helped design

2:28

or build apps like Slack, Coinbase,

2:30

Facebook Messenger, Oculus, Lonely

2:33

Planet and many more. Metalab

2:35

wants to bring their unique design philosophy to your

2:37

project. Let them take your brainstorm

2:39

and turn it into the next billion dollar

2:41

app from ideas sketched on the back of a napkin

2:44

to a final shipped product. Check

2:46

them out at Metalab.co. That's

2:48

Metalab.co. And when you get in touch,

2:51

tell them Shane sent you. Make an

2:53

exceptionally delicious cup of coffee in less

2:55

than a minute with the Aeropress coffee maker. It's

2:58

the only coffee press out there that uses a

3:00

patented 3-in-1 brew technology.

3:02

And because it's so unique, so is

3:04

the flavor. Not only does it taste

3:07

incredible, but I love the smooth, full-bodied

3:09

finish that other coffee makers can't give

3:11

you. Best of all, you can pack it

3:13

in your bag when you travel so you don't have to

3:15

drink that mediocre coffee at your office

3:18

or Airbnb. Aeropress is

3:20

made in the USA and is trusted by

3:22

professional baristas who love it for its versatility.

3:25

It's the only press that lets you experiment with

3:27

temperature, grind size and immersion

3:29

time. And now they have a new crystal

3:32

clear version. With over 45,000 5-star

3:35

reviews and sold in over 60

3:38

countries, what are you waiting for? Pick

3:40

one up today for under $50 at

3:43

aeropress.com slash Shane

3:45

and get 15% off exclusively for our

3:48

listeners. That's A E R

3:51

O P R E S S

3:53

dot com slash Shane. When

3:55

I was thinking about where to start this, I think we need

3:57

to start with what is HRV. and

4:00

what does it matter?

4:01

HRV, I believe, is

4:04

a biomarker that

4:07

everyone should understand

4:09

and know. It is a biomarker of resilience

4:11

change. So the larger your HRV,

4:14

the more control you have over

4:16

your autonomic response to stress before,

4:19

during, and after a stressor. And so you

4:21

can take someone who's taught 1%

4:24

of the world in what they do. And

4:26

if they don't have the physiological

4:28

control to operate at

4:30

that top 1% consistently

4:33

during stress before the stress

4:36

occurs, after it happens, they

4:38

don't have that control. They're operating at a fraction

4:41

of their cells instead of their best self.

4:44

HRV, in and of itself, the science

4:47

of it, is we're looking at

4:48

the time in

4:51

between heartbeats. And

4:53

more time is better. Less

4:56

time shows a less resilient

4:59

autonomic nervous system. Clinically,

5:02

when a client meets with me, we

5:04

use a different parameter than, say, the

5:06

oaring, which is looking

5:09

at the

5:10

time interval between beats. And

5:13

we're looking at, there's something

5:15

called resonant sinus arrhythmia. When

5:17

you inhale, your heart rate goes up. And when

5:19

you exhale, your heart rate goes down. And

5:23

we want these to be big

5:25

ocean-like waves. And you

5:27

take an athlete, and they'll come in. And

5:30

those waves, their heart rate will go from 40 to 100 and

5:32

back to 40. But

5:35

you take someone who was CEO

5:37

of a company under stress, and you've seen

5:40

HRV of, like, 5, 85 to 90, and back to 85. And

5:44

here you take someone so talented,

5:47

but without that ability to oscillate,

5:49

they're not their full selves. So I

5:52

look at that, and that

5:54

peak to trough ratio, the inhale,

5:57

exhale, and the heart rate, max

5:59

to min. is a clinically

6:01

useful way to help explain

6:04

heart rate oscillatory abilities

6:08

to a client and for them to see in real

6:11

time how this training impacts

6:13

those oscillations.

6:15

In the absence of stress, is there like a

6:17

default natural rate that we're born

6:19

with?

6:20

Such an interesting question because everyone's

6:22

looking for like the magic number. There's

6:25

no magic number and it very

6:27

much depends on your body, your

6:30

system, your experiences in life.

6:32

There are some people just born innately with

6:37

higher levels of HRV. They

6:39

tend, it's interesting Shane, they tend

6:41

to be endurance athletes.

6:45

I'll look at someone's heart and I'll say, do you run? And

6:47

if you don't, you should. But

6:51

more so than trying to find a magic

6:53

number for HRV, you want to look

6:56

at what your range is. So you can

6:58

do that in a variety of ways, tracking

7:00

devices, elite HRV, boring

7:03

and starting to get an understanding

7:05

of, I generally

7:08

like to look at nocturnal HRV and

7:11

the HRV on your lowest

7:14

days and HRV on your highest days

7:16

and then understanding, well, what

7:18

could be causing that? Your

7:21

HRV on the highest day according to the ordering is

7:24

in the high 50s, but on your lowest

7:26

day it's 17. Whoa,

7:29

that's a huge difference

7:31

in your body's ability to process

7:33

the world, to connect to the world, to

7:36

make decisions and perform at your peak.

7:38

So then you want to understand why that's

7:40

happening and begin to, it's interesting

7:43

because you

7:45

want to increase the HRV

7:48

per se number, but

7:50

you want to decrease the disparity

7:52

in between nights. So if I

7:54

have an athlete who has a 17 one night and a 72

7:56

another, I want to understand. why?

8:00

We want to close that gap so

8:02

that there's not so much variability in

8:05

between nights and they're more consistently

8:07

at a higher

8:08

HRV.

8:09

And is there is there a lot of data

8:11

to suggest that athletes perform

8:14

better

8:15

when their HRV is less

8:18

variable?

8:20

More variable. With athletes,

8:23

we'll often see larger HRVs

8:25

than the normal population because they're also doing

8:27

things to push their heart. They're doing

8:29

training so forth. But for instance,

8:32

golfers, the increases

8:36

in HRV can absolutely

8:39

impact their fatigue level, their endurance.

8:41

I've had golfers say to me on the PGA Tour

8:43

at all nine, Doc, I'm just not tired

8:46

anymore. What's going on? And

8:49

that's one of the really interesting impacts

8:51

of HRV.

8:53

And did normal sort of things that people

8:55

consume like alcohol or caffeine affect

8:58

their HRV and how so?

9:00

So alcohol has acute and

9:02

chronic effects.

9:03

It's really

9:05

interesting.

9:05

Every body

9:07

has a

9:08

different affinity for alcohol. So

9:10

Shane, you may be able to have

9:12

two glasses of wine and it doesn't

9:15

impact your HRV. But the

9:17

person across from

9:19

you may have two glasses of wine and it decimates

9:22

their HRV. And just

9:24

understanding what the

9:26

inputs are for your body is part

9:29

of peak performance. So

9:31

if you're someone that we

9:33

see that drinking two glasses

9:36

of alcohol has a really

9:38

large impact on your HRV, I'm

9:40

going to say maybe you shouldn't be doing

9:43

that during the week

9:45

or while you're competing or making, let's say, trading

9:47

decisions. So we make some decisions

9:50

together by understanding how

9:52

the body responds to particular sensory

9:55

inputs. So that's one. There

9:57

is evidence certainly that

10:00

chronic alcohol use chronically

10:02

lowers HRV. And

10:05

what's interesting is withdrawal. If

10:08

someone is a heavy drinker, it will also

10:11

reduce HRV because it's showing

10:13

the distress on the body. But that

10:16

changes in time as

10:18

abstinence occurs and the autonomic

10:21

nervous system rebalances. So

10:23

caffeine is an interesting

10:26

one. Two cups

10:28

of coffee for most people doesn't have a huge

10:30

impact on heart

10:32

rate variability such that if you're a performer

10:35

and you have a competition, I wouldn't say that having

10:41

two cups of coffee is really going to impact you. Having

10:44

five cups or more seems

10:46

to have an impact on

10:49

that very day's performance. Now

10:51

I've had people come in, Shane, that

10:53

have low HRV, and

10:56

they're exceptional athletes. So

10:58

what's the problem here? So

11:00

I'll ask a series of questions, sleep,

11:03

alcohol use, food

11:05

intake, caffeine. And

11:07

sometimes there are people that self-medicate

11:10

for ADHD with caffeine,

11:13

and they're drinking 12 or more cups of

11:15

coffee because it helps them stay focused

11:17

and locked in. Well, there's

11:19

a negative impact on heart rate

11:21

variability and that autonomic flexibility

11:24

and how you actually, at

11:26

an automatic level, process the

11:28

world. So we'll talk about that. And

11:31

there have been cases where I'll have an

11:33

individual, you know,

11:36

use other methods

11:38

for self-medicating for ADHD along

11:41

with an MD's recommendation and those sort

11:43

of things. So they're not sacrificing

11:46

their HRV to

11:49

be able to stay focused.

11:50

You mentioned sleep, caffeine, food intake. What

11:53

are the other variables that you ask people

11:55

about when they come into your office

11:58

to better understand what is the best way to do it? they're

12:00

coming from and what their baseline is. And

12:02

then I want to talk next about the things that we can

12:05

do to move

12:07

on from that baseline and what things we control

12:10

to maximize our peak mental

12:12

and physical performance.

12:15

Sleep is a big one. Certainly,

12:18

high HRV is associated with better

12:20

sleep. Low HRV is

12:22

associated with conditions like insomnia

12:25

and sleep apnea. Low

12:27

sleep will negatively impact

12:30

HRV, so there is this circular

12:32

effect. And

12:36

so that's certainly a question. People

12:39

often want to say, I can

12:42

sleep five hours, I feel rested. HRV

12:44

will tell you. It

12:47

really gives a robust and accurate

12:49

number in terms of recovery. And

12:52

I'm able to show people in the nights where they

12:54

get five hours of sleep, let's say, versus eight

12:56

hours of sleep, what happens

12:59

to rest and recovery if we look at HRV

13:02

as a metric of resilience. So

13:05

it can be really, really helpful to have

13:07

that kind of data. The

13:10

also interesting part about HRV

13:12

and sleep, as people

13:15

increase their HRV, a common sleep problem,

13:17

and it's not insomnia or sleep apnea, it's just

13:19

busy brain. They can't turn it off.

13:22

And so you'll have CEOs that

13:24

can't fall asleep because they're thinking, thinking,

13:26

and that's what they're great at in the world. But

13:29

if you don't have the ability to turn

13:31

off your brain, you don't

13:33

have deep recovery and it will affect

13:35

your REM sleep and even your deep sleep.

13:38

This allows the body to

13:41

turn off. And it's not turning off

13:43

to make you like you just came out of yoga.

13:46

You're in control. When you need to be on,

13:48

you can be on, but now you can be off

13:50

when you need to be off. And that can be good too

13:53

for people who have multiple wake ups

13:55

during the night because their mind is racing

13:57

and that they're able to go back to

13:59

sleep.

13:59

to sleep with the next song of the breathing.

14:02

So talk to me a little more about the

14:04

breathing. What is it that we can do specifically?

14:07

You mentioned sort of turn it on and turn it off.

14:10

What is it that we control that allows

14:12

us to do that like a light switch almost?

14:15

This process, it takes 10 weeks

14:17

and I've done this for 17 years, Shane. I've

14:20

sliced and diced it. I've had people call me from

14:22

India. Can I please come doc? I'll train

14:24

with you for seven hours a day for 10 days

14:27

and then go back and say it doesn't work

14:29

like that. It's the chronic activation,

14:32

what's called the baroreflex. Okay,

14:34

the baroreflex is a reflex

14:36

in your autonomic nervous system that controls

14:39

heart rate and blood pressure. We identify

14:41

a rate of breathing that strengthens

14:43

this reflex. So think about it.

14:45

As an athlete, you train every

14:48

part of your body that has a muscle but most people

14:50

aren't training their hearts, right? We

14:53

do calf raises. We do arm raises. Why?

14:56

Because with a certain amount of frequency, we

14:58

strengthen that muscle and we have control

15:01

over that body part that's increased

15:03

and you're able to do that, so to speak,

15:05

with the baroreflex. As you

15:08

stimulate the baroreflex with resonant

15:10

frequency breathing, a rate that we identify

15:13

in my office, that everyone has

15:15

a different rate. It's generally between five and 6.5

15:17

breaths per minute but

15:19

everyone is slightly different and

15:22

we're able to maximize HRV

15:24

on each breath. So 15

15:27

minutes, twice a day, 10 weeks, they've

15:30

actually created a reflex

15:32

where during stressful moments, the

15:34

parasympathetic nervous system kicks

15:37

in and helps to moderate. Well, that's

15:39

kind of cool, right? Because now you

15:41

have an automatic, automated response

15:44

to stress. And in my

15:46

training with Elite

15:49

Performers, we do a 10-week

15:51

protocol. The first four weeks is really

15:53

focused on optimizing that baseline.

15:56

So by the fourth week,

15:58

I can see... that you've strengthened

16:01

the baroreflex. And what

16:04

you would say to me is, gosh, I can

16:06

feel like I just let go faster. I

16:08

feel like the world, the things that

16:10

used to irritate me, it's not that stress is

16:12

gone, but I have more control over

16:15

it. And that's the first

16:16

piece because

16:17

what happens, the baroreceptors,

16:20

when you have a moment, I

16:22

was talking to Joe about a car

16:24

ride he had yesterday into

16:26

the city,

16:27

and you have these moments in gridlock,

16:29

right? And what

16:32

that does to most people is

16:34

it creates a sympathetic state, as it should.

16:37

That's how the body is wired. But sometimes

16:39

we stay in that state when

16:43

the stressor is gone, or even

16:45

during the moment of stress when we have to do

16:48

something or make a decision or give

16:50

a public talk, you want to be

16:52

able to shift to homeostasis

16:55

where the parasympathetic and sympathetic

16:57

are balanced or even better

16:59

than this is what I teach, being

17:02

able to optimize into a parasympathetic

17:04

state. And so the sympathetic

17:06

is associated with fight or flight. The parasympathetic

17:09

is associated with flow. And I wanted to find

17:11

that it's not being calm, okay?

17:14

It's being open, engaged,

17:17

aware, and able to be receptive

17:20

to the needs of the moment. So if you needed

17:22

to accelerate, you can. If you need

17:24

to decelerate, you can, but

17:26

you are in control.

17:28

So for the people that can't work with you, what

17:30

can they do at home to train

17:32

their heart better that'll

17:34

make the sort of biggest bang for the buck,

17:36

if you will?

17:37

The first piece is identifying resonant

17:39

frequency. It's the rate of breathing that

17:42

maximizes the heartbeat oscillations. And

17:45

you can use tools from elite HRVs,

17:48

sensors, core sensors, very good, oaring

17:52

can be used, and what

17:54

you're looking for is the highest amplitude

17:56

of changes when you breathe at these different rates.

17:59

So you'll do that. five breaths per minute, 5.5

18:01

breaths per minute, six breaths per minute, I

18:03

generally start at 6.5 and

18:06

work my way down. And

18:09

then once you identify the rate of breathing

18:12

that has the highest amplitude

18:14

heart rate oscillations, you go on. Here's

18:17

the trick. If you can't get a hold of

18:19

feedback, physiological

18:22

feedback, 90% of

18:24

the time, the rate that is

18:26

someone's resonant frequency is the rate

18:28

that just feels good. So

18:31

out of, if you do six breaths per minute, 5.5

18:35

and five breaths per minute, I'd have

18:37

you try those three and

18:39

for two minutes using a pacer could

18:42

use Breathe Plus, awesome breathing,

18:44

easy air. There's an assortment of breath pasters

18:47

that you can set the timing for and then

18:49

identify which

18:52

one just feels most effortless,

18:54

okay? And then from there,

18:56

you go through a process, you

18:58

commit to breathing 15 minutes twice

19:00

a day. I generally have my clients breathe in the morning

19:03

upon waking and 15 minutes before

19:05

breathing. This is awesome

19:07

for increasing deep sleep and helping

19:11

with any type of sleep issues.

19:13

We're just enhancing deep

19:16

restorative sleep as well. And

19:18

the first four weeks is really

19:20

focused on consistent regular practice,

19:23

adding in abdominal breathing. And

19:25

then we do things starting

19:27

in week five and I

19:29

describe it in my book to learn to

19:31

actually navigate stress in the moment. So

19:33

I'll give you one, it's a very simple example but

19:39

everyone has experiences, Shannon I'll ask

19:41

you yours just as an example and experience

19:44

in your life that moves your heart. It's

19:47

something that physiologically,

19:50

when you think about produces

19:52

a feeling of inspiration or gratitude

19:54

or love, can you think of a moment in your

19:57

life? and

20:00

tell me just a little bit about that

20:03

for just a minute.

20:04

Oh, I think the one that came to mind

20:06

is actually maybe quite sad, but it was

20:09

inspiring in the Simchuken when I was

20:12

holding my grandmother's hand as she passed

20:14

away.

20:15

Beautiful and moving and

20:18

a moment of deep connection and

20:20

something that

20:22

when you think about, I mean, even

20:24

your voice changed, right? It

20:27

had just a moving,

20:30

I mean, I could

20:32

feel the emotion. And

20:34

so I have

20:37

people pick about three of those,

20:39

okay,

20:39

three different experiences

20:41

that move their heart. Common ones

20:44

are holding a baby for a first time.

20:47

For athletes, you know, winning

20:49

their first trophy. Another one

20:52

can be a nature experience. I

20:54

had someone who, looking at the stars,

20:57

was their amplifier. And

21:01

so anyway, so on the inhale,

21:04

if you're breathing at six breaths per minute, it's

21:06

a four-second inhale, six-second exhale.

21:09

And on the inhale, I'm having you connect

21:12

to that feeling, that feeling chain

21:14

of just deep, pure love with

21:17

your grandma, that connection, that just,

21:21

it transcends through time

21:23

and the way it makes your heart

21:25

feel. And connecting

21:27

to that, it's not a mental thing. It's

21:29

not going through the

21:32

mental conversation or what

21:34

you're doing. It's getting to the feeling

21:36

and on the inhale, connecting to it. And

21:39

on the exhale, letting go of the rest of the world, okay?

21:42

So, we can train the heart. The

21:44

heart imprints experiences. And

21:47

we can train the heart to activate

21:49

those experiences on demand. And

21:51

then the next piece is being

21:54

able to use specific experiences

21:56

in specific moments of stress.

22:00

calm down

22:01

or to change your physiological state.

22:04

You mentioned the Aura Ring can be used for this.

22:08

You mentioned another tool. I didn't quite catch the

22:10

name of it. What other tools can people use to monitor

22:12

their...

22:13

Sure. EliteHIV has something

22:16

called CoreSense where you put your

22:18

finger in and I actually have an

22:20

app through EliteHIV

22:22

that you can go through my 10 session

22:26

program using their app if

22:28

you download EliteHIV and

22:30

just click on Dr. LagosHRV.

22:35

But they have... It's just a little sensor

22:38

you can order online. I

22:41

forget the cost, but it's reasonable

22:43

in terms of these kind of gadgets and

22:46

very accurate. You

22:48

don't have to use the physiological

22:51

feedback all the time. In fact, I

22:53

recommend not because people get obsessive

22:56

and then they're not allowing their physiology

22:59

to change because they're hypervigilant

23:02

about the outcome. Using

23:05

it from time to time, once

23:07

a week or once every few weeks can be

23:09

really great. In my book,

23:11

I recommend doing tracking every day

23:14

for weeks one, four, seven and 10 and

23:16

then putting it away. You're able to look

23:18

at changes about every

23:21

three weeks at your baseline level

23:23

and when you breathe. Obviously,

23:26

we want to optimize baseline HRV

23:29

for each individual. But then there's a second

23:31

piece and this

23:32

is really important for elite

23:35

performers which

23:37

is being able to shift

23:40

your physiology in the moment from

23:42

a sympathetic to a parasympathetic

23:44

state in just a few breaths. Those

23:47

are some of the things that we work

23:49

on along with the breathing and

23:52

layer in. There's another piece where

23:54

I look at training

23:57

them to identify when they're in

23:59

a fight. or flight state versus a flow state. Well,

24:02

why is that important? Because if you're going

24:04

out to a competitive event or making a, let's

24:07

say, a big decision about how to spend money

24:09

or invest, you want to

24:11

be doing that from a parasympathetic

24:14

state, not a sympathetic one. So

24:16

there's a little bit of somatic awareness training

24:19

that we do in my work

24:21

with clients and then helping them

24:23

to identify what state they're in and then

24:26

being able to shift that state on demand.

24:29

You mentioned running.

24:31

You recommended people run. What additional tools,

24:34

aside from the breathing, is it

24:36

sort of like when we eat or when we

24:38

exercise or is it specific types

24:41

of exercise are better to

24:44

maximize our HRV than other

24:46

types of exercise?

24:48

So to clarify, sometimes someone

24:51

will come in with just a

24:53

really large

24:56

HRV and they're not athletes. And then I will

24:58

say, you're an endurance person.

25:00

So you run. If not, you should. But

25:03

any kind of endurance sport will increase

25:05

and maximize HRV. And

25:08

along with the HRV, I like to

25:10

work with a person to create

25:14

essentially vectors in their ecosystem

25:17

that lead to internal state changes. So

25:19

I'll give you a few kind of fun examples. Short

25:22

sleep maximization and finding the

25:24

rhythm for sleep. Some

25:27

people need nine hours. Some people need seven.

25:29

But when we track, we're able to see

25:32

how different amounts

25:34

of time impact sleep. There are things

25:36

like looking at how eating within

25:39

three hours before bedtime impacts

25:41

sleep. Looking at alcohol, like we talked

25:43

about use, caffeine use. What

25:47

else is interesting? Music for

25:49

some people can really produce

25:51

a heightened HRV effect. And

25:55

Joe and I can talk with you later

25:57

about some of the things that we did along the

25:59

way. with the breathing to maximize

26:01

HIV in real time for specific

26:04

performance

26:04

states. But you have to find

26:06

certain songs. Not every song will

26:08

amplify HIV. My friend Josh Weitskin,

26:11

Eminem, is the song

26:15

without breathing. Like, guess who's HIV

26:17

on fire? And so I try and find

26:20

that with different performers, the

26:22

songs that move their heart. There

26:25

are other pieces when you monitor

26:28

someone's HIV daily. You

26:31

ask kind of about their daily routine

26:33

and habits. I'll give you a personal one. I live

26:35

to monitor my HIV

26:37

from time to time, and I found a really curious

26:39

effect. On the days I took

26:42

my daughters to school, my HIV was

26:44

higher. So it went pain. It

26:46

naturally moved my heart. But having

26:48

the data that made it

26:51

further supported, and I was

26:55

taking the girls to school anyway, but

26:58

it was just really interesting to

27:01

see the impact

27:03

on my physiology. Everyone has these

27:05

pieces. So

27:08

other pieces that people respond

27:10

to from behavioral changes,

27:12

eating at timed

27:15

intervals. So there's a lot of people that are

27:17

adhering to intermittent fasting. Okay,

27:20

for some people, I see HIV

27:22

increases, but not all. And

27:24

in fact, what I see more frequently

27:26

is that when we time the

27:29

expected time that you eat,

27:32

irrespective of what you're eating, that

27:34

you eat generally at the same time. Let's say 7

27:36

o'clock, 1 o'clock, 6 o'clock, 5 days

27:39

a week, the body feels safe. It

27:41

can predict the input, and

27:43

it creates a sense of safety. And I always

27:45

say safety is

27:48

a precursor to flow. Safety in

27:50

the body, also that feeling

27:52

of safety, maximizes

27:53

HRV. That's excellent. One of

27:55

the things that I was excited about today was

27:58

often these conversations are theorized. article,

28:01

but we have Joe here. And Joe, I'm

28:04

curious, what led you to

28:06

HRV and to start working

28:09

with Dr. Lagos?

28:10

You know, when I got the job, I

28:13

understood and realized the arena

28:16

that we're in, the variables,

28:19

the physical, the mental, the emotional, spiritual

28:21

variables that

28:22

are present in every game, especially

28:25

as you head towards the playoffs. And so,

28:28

you know, it being my first year, you know,

28:30

as a head coach, I wanted to

28:32

work on myself. I wanted to build an awareness of myself,

28:34

how my body, how my mind, how my heart

28:37

reacts to stress so

28:39

that I could be a precursor for our teams, that I could be

28:42

the spearhead for what our team needs

28:44

at that particular time. And I had never been

28:46

in a playoff situation and I knew it was a high,

28:48

high level

28:49

of everything, stress, anxiety,

28:52

you know, physical, mental pressure. So I

28:54

thought, you know, breathing and HRV

28:57

was how I could kind of bring myself

28:59

to peak performers to then try to

29:01

lead that for the team. Was

29:03

there a difference between how you felt before

29:06

and after your training? Sure.

29:08

And I think, you know, Doc mentioned

29:10

something of like, I think as

29:13

performers or leaders, and when

29:15

we're in decision making processes, for me personally,

29:17

I always felt like I had to act quote

29:19

unquote, calm or always had to be a certain

29:22

way

29:22

in order to make good decisions

29:25

or you can't make

29:26

decisions if you're not

29:27

calm.

29:29

And what I learned and someone really started working

29:31

on was the oscillation process, you know, the ability

29:33

to fluctuate your heart rate

29:36

so that you can operate under different

29:38

levels of stress. And then when you do get into those levels

29:40

of stress, how quickly can you recover back down?

29:42

And so it really opened up my mind

29:44

to, it's not about being one way,

29:47

it's about how can you manipulate your environment?

29:49

How can you manipulate the momentum? How can you, you

29:52

know, fluctuate your energy in

29:54

order to have a positive effect on the

29:56

environment around you?

29:58

Can you talk to me a little bit more about that? that you mentioned

30:00

environment and momentum as two

30:02

of the variables that you want to have an

30:04

impact on because they determine

30:07

behavior in a way. Yeah, I mean, I think,

30:09

you know, for me personally, the beginning of the year

30:12

as you're trying to figure it out, you

30:15

feel, for

30:16

lack of a better term, you can feel

30:19

what you're giving off, the energy that you're giving

30:21

off or you can feel the momentum

30:24

of the game going a certain type of way. And, you know,

30:26

as I got a little bit more experience this

30:28

year, I was able to see how I can

30:30

affect that, you know, through my breathing, through

30:33

my awareness.

30:34

And so, you know, whether there was moments

30:36

of

30:37

the proper time to act

30:40

a little bit, you know, outside of yourself, or if

30:42

you had to, you know, oscillate into,

30:44

you know, get a little aggressive, if you had to, in

30:47

the aggressive moments, be a little bit

30:49

calm. And how can you just fluctuate into

30:51

different levels of energy? That

30:55

can maybe spearhead a

30:57

small run, that can maybe spark energy, that can maybe

30:59

change the momentum. And so using that, you

31:01

know, how you present yourself on the sidelines, how

31:03

you operate during a time out. So all these little

31:06

areas of oscillation and opportunities

31:08

for momentum all came back to breathing,

31:10

you know, because you're able

31:13

to keep yourself at a baseline, you're able

31:15

to build an awareness, you're able to build a connection

31:17

to your body and mind, and you know

31:19

exactly, you know, how you can operate

31:21

during each of these different times, and then you start anticipating

31:23

them. Like you can start seeing those moments

31:26

ahead of time, preparing

31:28

yourself for those moments.

31:29

So walk me through that a little bit, like,

31:32

take me back game seven, Miami Heat,

31:34

you know, the first few minutes, first

31:37

few minutes of the game, your best player gets

31:39

injured.

31:40

Are you thinking in that moment about

31:43

breathing? Like, how are you managing?

31:45

Let's take it back, take it back even further. And

31:47

again, I'm by no means an

31:50

expert at this. Yeah, I'm still learning at times. So

31:52

there was moments even, you know, during this offseason

31:54

has been momentarily, man, I could have

31:57

oscillated better there. I could have worked through that better. So we go

31:59

in the beginning. in the season. And what

32:01

I started to feel personally was like, in

32:03

these moments of decision making, in these moments

32:05

of opportunity, you go back to the,

32:08

you know, fight or flight, for

32:10

me it was like fight, flight or free. Like you just kind

32:12

of get into situations where you don't do anything, you

32:14

know, where it may

32:17

be analysis by paralysis or you have four

32:19

or five options and you don't know which option to pick

32:21

and you end up not picking one, which is also a decision,

32:23

right? And so at the beginning of the year when you're,

32:26

you know, you're working through all these variables, you're working all

32:28

through all these experiences and situations, you're

32:30

trying to figure out what is the best,

32:34

you know, mindset or approach towards that situation,

32:36

but you end up not doing one, right? And so as we

32:38

started to work, I was able to get away from this. And there

32:40

were a few games in the beginning of the year where

32:42

it's like,

32:43

I felt like I could have helped the

32:46

energy or the momentum of the game by oscillating.

32:48

If I knew how to at that time, I just wasn't

32:50

there yet. And so as the season

32:53

goes on, there was more few games where I was like,

32:55

man, okay, I can feel this. Here's what I'm going to do.

32:57

I'm going to have this conversation or I'm

32:59

going to use this timeout or I'm going to call this player.

33:01

I'm going to strike

33:03

this chord with a player or I'm

33:06

going to use the ref in this situation. I'm going

33:08

to use one line assistant coaches at a timeout.

33:10

And you start learning how to

33:13

cultivate that, learning how to manipulate that.

33:15

And then, you know, in the playoffs, I had

33:18

a much better feel of my

33:20

physiology, of my body, mind,

33:23

awareness. It doesn't mean it was right all the time. It doesn't mean I

33:25

made the right or best decision. But what

33:27

I felt, you know, through the the

33:29

year of us working together in the 10 weeks and just

33:31

my experiences of ups and downs was like, I

33:34

felt on that sideline, I had the ability

33:37

to oscillate, I had the ability to navigate

33:39

the momentum and the energy of the team of the arena

33:42

of the game.

33:43

And, you know, trying to come up with the best decision

33:45

possible. So when you say oscillate, do you mean

33:48

sort of like, stop negative

33:50

momentum? Or is it to amplify

33:52

positive momentum? Like, what does oscillate

33:54

mean in that context?

33:56

I think it can be both, right? I think it

33:58

can be both. And a perfect example was like game

34:00

seven of the Philly series. So

34:03

the game seven of the Philly series, I think we're

34:05

down 35-28 in the first quarter. And

34:09

we call a timeout and I just walk out

34:11

to half court. And those

34:13

were the moments that at the beginning of the year, I was a

34:15

little bit scared of because like what

34:18

did it show? I didn't have the emotional intelligence

34:20

that I showed you didn't have it. But it was a predetermined

34:23

act to grab back the momentum

34:26

and to grab the energy of the team and to

34:28

oscillate to a certain point where the

34:31

people around you could feed off of that. And

34:33

I think that was a small

34:36

piece that I felt like our players were able

34:38

to connect with me.

34:41

And we were able to kind of change

34:42

the momentum of that.

34:44

So like opening and finding small

34:46

abilities to do that because as

34:48

soon as right after you do it, you got to come back and then

34:50

you have to have a technical approach

34:53

to a timeout. And so you have to bring

34:55

your heart rate down. You have to

34:57

oscillate back down to baseline. And so that's

34:59

like an example. And do you use

35:01

this with your players too? Is it something that

35:03

you've sort of talked to them about without

35:05

maybe getting into the specifics of HRV, but

35:07

just in terms of oscillating moments?

35:10

Yeah, I mean, I think just the conversation

35:12

in general, I think just understanding

35:15

the importance of breathing. I think

35:18

for athletes and really just people that

35:20

are in, it's not even about athletes, for me personally,

35:23

or coaching. It's about people

35:25

that are trying to be peak performers in high level

35:29

stressful situations that have to make

35:31

decisions over and over again. In

35:34

a basketball game, you have to make a thousand decisions

35:36

within a game. If you're CEO, you

35:38

may have to make a hundred decisions. So it's more about

35:41

what's our body and mind like at the point

35:43

of decision making under stress. And

35:46

that's kind

35:47

of

35:48

my passion, being in the NBA

35:50

and in professional sports. It's

35:54

like, can we open our mind to different

35:56

things that are having an impact on our performance and

35:58

the ability to make it better? and breathing is one of them.

36:02

At stressful moments, you can really feel if

36:04

you're breathing at the proper rate. Or

36:07

like God said, if you're holding your breath, there's

36:10

tendencies for people when they

36:12

get to a stressful moment to hold their breath, which then

36:14

tenses their body, which then doesn't

36:16

allow them to make the proper decision. And then you have people

36:18

that are able to oscillate. And so I think it's just

36:20

opening up that space of peak performance

36:24

and how you can

36:25

work at them.

36:26

What sort of things did you do

36:29

before a game to maximize your

36:31

HRV? I think the

36:33

two biggest things that I'll go to

36:36

this side first, and then we can have a deeper conversation,

36:38

was music. And the

36:40

other part I started to realize was I

36:43

think we're an autopilot

36:45

about how the things in our environment really affect

36:47

our physiology. We just don't know

36:49

all the time. We're not aware of it. And

36:52

for me, one of those was music. And so music

36:55

is a tool that you're constantly

36:57

being surrounded by, whether you're working

36:59

out, whether you're working, whether you're driving.

37:02

What I didn't realize was how certain songs

37:04

can have an impact on my heart

37:06

rate, can have an impact on my stress. And so just

37:09

by listening to a song, subconsciously you're

37:11

putting your body into a different level of stress

37:13

than you would even realize. And then that may

37:15

have an effect on the decision that you make 45 minutes

37:18

later. And so one of the cool

37:20

things that we got to with our bio feedback

37:23

was we made a playlist of songs that

37:25

keep me

37:26

in a flow state,

37:28

that keep me at the level

37:30

that I need to be and that give me the opportunity

37:32

to oscillate. They don't put me in a sympathetic

37:35

state. It would be in the ability to be in a parasympathetic

37:38

state. And so it was a list of

37:40

five to eight songs. And I

37:42

got to the point where that's what I was doing. An

37:45

hour before the game was just listening

37:48

to that music, putting my body and mind in the

37:51

right space for

37:53

the game. I think the

37:55

second piece of that was recovery,

37:57

which I think is something that is huge.

37:59

for our environment

38:02

because we play late, late into the

38:04

night.

38:06

We're in an arena where the lights are on,

38:08

it's bright. You're eating habits

38:11

are much different because of the schedule of the

38:13

game. You may not have dinner till 10, 30, 11 o'clock at night. You

38:17

may not have lunch until three o'clock because

38:19

you're sleeping in the travel late at night. And

38:21

so the other piece that we really wanted

38:24

to attack was like, how can I recover my body to

38:26

keep my HRV at a certain level to

38:28

where I'm standing in the middle of

38:30

an arena for three and a half hours with all this light

38:32

and my body doesn't recover.

38:35

I'm not able to get to bed till 1.32. And I'm

38:38

in this state, how can I get my body to

38:40

a parasympathetic state by nighttime so that I can

38:42

get, even if I'm getting five hours, how can I get the best five

38:45

hours?

38:45

So those two were really the components

38:48

that we attacked. So what was that routine?

38:50

You get back to the hotel room or did it start before

38:52

the hotel room in order to maximize

38:55

that rest period that you had, whether it was five

38:57

hours or eight hours? It started

38:59

kind of right after the game.

39:01

Really, I found that at the point where now, where my

39:03

resident is four and six out, so I have the ability

39:05

to kind of just do that whenever I feel like I'm

39:08

in a certain state. And so that kind of happens a

39:10

little after the game. Wasn't perfect with it. If

39:13

it was a big game, I would still go out and have a glass

39:15

of wine and have dinner. But at least made me think of building

39:17

awareness. You get home, you

39:19

take a hot shower to be able to bring

39:21

your body back down, go through a stretching routine.

39:25

That saved my 15 minute breathing routine

39:28

for after the game. So I was able to get your body there.

39:31

And then just what you eat, so steamed

39:34

vegetables, stuff like that. So going towards a little bit more

39:36

of a diet that would help me not

39:38

have a negative impact on my sleep right

39:40

after. There's a lot of scientific things. There's

39:43

a lot of technical things that HRV

39:45

helped me with. But I think the piece

39:47

that I wasn't expecting it was how

39:50

it changed my heart, how it changed my emotions,

39:52

how it changed how I experienced love.

39:56

I think that had the biggest impact that I didn't

39:58

know it was going. to have. I

40:00

got into it for more of a,

40:02

you know, a athletic standpoint,

40:04

a peak performance standpoint. How can I be better

40:07

on the sidelines? How can I be better

40:09

as a coach? And it ended up making me, you know,

40:11

a better person

40:12

along the lines and really just connecting

40:15

with love. Can you double click

40:17

on that a little bit and go deeper? I want to hear more

40:19

about that. Yeah. I mean, I think we started

40:21

kind of going to that towards the end of the season

40:23

and into the playoffs. And,

40:26

you know, we started just kind of saying

40:28

like,

40:29

when do you feel at your best?

40:31

You know, when do you feel at your most low

40:34

state? What are some of the things in your life

40:36

that kind of make you who you

40:39

are? And as we would go through

40:41

our breathing routines and she talks

40:43

about, you know, how we would do our visualization and

40:46

what can I connect my heart to? And I know you mentioned

40:48

your grandmother. The two

40:50

things I was able to connect my heart to was my

40:52

dad passing and then my

40:54

relationship with my wife and kids. And

40:57

like, you know,

40:59

for me, initially it was like,

41:01

I don't necessarily I love, but

41:03

I don't

41:04

feel the love. I can't connect to

41:07

the love. I know it's there. It's an

41:09

action, but it's not yet a feeling

41:12

or emotion. It's more of just an action. And like,

41:14

can we shift that a little bit

41:16

to where, you know, I can

41:19

express myself the way

41:22

my mind is telling me I should, you know,

41:24

and how can we do that through the heart? And so a lot

41:27

of our visualizations came into like my

41:29

best moments with my wife, my

41:31

best moments with my children, my

41:34

best moments with my dad before

41:36

he had passed and what he's done for me since

41:38

he's passed and how I was able to connect to those

41:40

things. And, you know, with the breathing, it

41:42

like forces you, it forces

41:44

you to sit in it, that love

41:46

that you have for your wife and you got to sit

41:48

in it for 15 minutes and you have to feel it

41:51

and you've got to embrace it and then you

41:53

have to let it go and then you have to bring it back and it

41:55

forces you to just sit in the moment,

41:59

which for me, healed my heart

42:01

in some areas and opened up my heart in other

42:03

areas.

42:03

There's a science behind that, Shane.

42:06

And the science from my

42:08

perspective is this is

42:11

a pathway for emotional integration. So

42:14

as someone increases

42:16

their ability to operate from a parasympathetic

42:19

state on demand, meaning you

42:21

can be open, receptive, you

42:23

can let go. It's as

42:25

if the body says, great, now

42:28

I can feel more deeply because there's nothing

42:30

to fear. And so at the same

42:32

time, you know, Joe

42:35

was taking more risks from the court, so

42:37

to speak, making calls that he

42:40

wanted to make more quickly

42:43

and without hesitation, that

42:45

abundance of love for his wife,

42:48

his kid. And I mean,

42:50

it is so clear and so awesome

42:53

from a physiological

42:56

impact or his dad and being

42:58

able to connect to those moment by moment

43:00

and let them go. It harnessed and

43:02

unleashed. It like unlocked him. So

43:04

we think of love as a

43:07

solid emotion, not at all. This

43:10

is about being able

43:12

to be really connected and kind of

43:14

dance along the emotional spectrum to

43:18

empower you in each and

43:20

every moment without

43:23

restriction.

43:24

I'm curious if, I mean, love

43:27

is a great example. Does it have any impact

43:29

on how you had developed

43:31

relationships with your players, with

43:34

other coaches or even family

43:37

members who might not be in

43:39

the same category as your wife, per se? Yeah,

43:41

I mean, I think

43:43

for me to get to the love,

43:45

I had to first get through self-expression. And,

43:48

you know, you talk about taking risks on the court.

43:51

I had to take risks in life emotionally,

43:54

which is something that I don't necessarily

43:56

do all the time. And that's where the breathing and the

43:58

HRV kind of happens. help you with that.

44:00

And so like, you know, it all goes back

44:02

to when you get into these,

44:04

this arena is like, how do you

44:06

self express? You

44:08

know, like, how do you express yourself? How do you express

44:10

what you're feeling? How do you have

44:12

an impact on the people around you? And so like this,

44:15

this, once I was able to,

44:17

you know, quote unquote unlock, and you can just,

44:20

you know, feel the freedom to self

44:23

express, it leads to that love.

44:25

And then it leads to that taking risks and it leads

44:27

to yes, you try to be able

44:30

to connect more with people, you know, I'm not saying I'm the best

44:32

at it by any means. But I felt

44:34

the ability to just be more empathetic, both

44:36

the ability to just kind of go to where that person

44:39

was. When you go from a transition from

44:41

where I was to where I am now, as far as that

44:43

is like, a lot of it is like, how quickly can you

44:45

make yourself comfortable

44:47

in those moments? So like, it definitely

44:50

just kind of helped me understand myself,

44:52

that's where I could be more authentic.

44:55

So walk me through and practice how that played

44:57

out. You guys mentioned earlier conversation that you

44:59

you sort of like got into traffic yesterday.

45:02

Well, I think to practice for practical,

45:04

you know, I did my breathing session before the game,

45:06

you know, I had my playlist. And

45:09

you know, she had mentioned doing

45:12

small resident breathing before every timeout.

45:14

So we have 14 timeouts

45:16

every game.

45:17

And so I started to ask like, how

45:19

many of those are on autopilot? How many of those are

45:22

you like, bring yourself back down to

45:24

a certain level? How many of those are you aware to like,

45:26

what your team specifically needs at that moment,

45:28

maybe it's a timeout of nothing, maybe it's a timeout

45:31

of a little bit of aggression, maybe it's a timeout of a tactical

45:33

conversation. So getting to that three

45:35

to five of resonance breathing, like as soon

45:37

as the timeout started, to

45:39

then I was able to kind of,

45:41

you know, put myself in the proper space, you

45:43

know, to make the best decision.

45:45

Well, I'm wondering if you can talk a little bit more

45:47

about mastering sort of shifts in

45:49

momentum and oscillation

45:52

and the relationship between those

45:54

two perhaps with environment mixed in

45:57

there too. Being able to

45:59

know when to engage

46:03

or not engage is

46:05

such a such a common

46:09

plight and It could

46:11

happen to an elite athlete. It could

46:13

happen to someone in business It could happen

46:15

to someone in whole life Do

46:17

I go all in with intensity

46:20

or do I stand back and just do

46:22

nothing? and This

46:27

becomes a process By

46:29

virtue of gaining control over your physiology

46:32

to be able to do them to be able

46:34

to pause things that used to be Automatic

46:37

and say is that what I want to do Right

46:40

now the mastering shift in momentum

46:43

is is a piece of that so Being

46:46

able to recognize the kind of internal

46:49

state some people Can

46:51

be really intense and on fire

46:54

but I mean you

46:56

take an NBA game of three

47:00

hours and and and You

47:03

know there are there are oscillations

47:06

in that

47:07

Time

47:08

and being really clear on when the oscillations

47:11

are occurring and being able to catch it

47:13

sooner to intervene and sometimes

47:15

It's breathing Joe talks about power

47:17

three. He would take four

47:19

and six out Focusing on

47:21

a desired state on the inhale and letting go

47:23

of the rest of the world But there there

47:25

can be others too and sometimes

47:28

it's it's connecting with

47:30

another person It could be a spouse if you're

47:32

a coach It could be a player that you're

47:34

really close to things there

47:36

are other ways to move your

47:38

heart oscillation in the moment as

47:40

well So that ability

47:43

to master momentum and being

47:45

really attuned to that Internal

47:48

state to make the decision on

47:50

whether to

47:50

engage or disengage I think is

47:52

really important and

47:54

it's interesting how much our physiology

47:56

controls decisions We think of decision-making

47:59

is such a mental process, but

48:01

your physiological state prior

48:04

to making that decision and even during making

48:06

that decision will impact

48:09

several different pieces. One,

48:11

it will impact the kind

48:13

of context you see.

48:16

If you are in a highly sympathetic state,

48:18

you are much more likely to be myopic. Okay?

48:21

You're in a survival state. And

48:23

by virtue of survival,

48:25

it's like one truck. And

48:29

the body intensely

48:31

restricts blood

48:33

flow and there are physiological

48:35

reasons. You're just one kind of one-track

48:38

minded. But really

48:40

in these kind of critical situations,

48:42

whether you're on a basketball court, you're making training

48:45

decisions, decisions

48:47

about life, you want that cognitive

48:49

dexterity to seamlessly look

48:51

at different options and analyze

48:54

what's best in the moment. That

48:57

actually comes from blood flow and oxygen

48:59

to the brain. So it's really interesting from a science

49:02

perspective. My

49:04

colleagues at Rutgers looked at what

49:06

happens to the brain during

49:09

resonant frequency breathing. And what

49:11

they found for MRIs was something

49:14

called vasovagal constriction. So

49:16

during stressful moments, the blood vessels

49:18

would constrict to shunt blood flow and oxygen

49:21

to the brain. Well, it makes sense why you would

49:23

have myopic thinking then. And

49:25

with the resonant breathing, what they found was

49:27

the diameter of blood flow or excuse

49:30

me, of blood vessels was larger.

49:32

It stayed

49:33

open much more like the baseline

49:35

state. So you are much more

49:38

likely to not have

49:41

a cognitive manifestation

49:43

of stress, that myopia. And so I'll have

49:45

decision makers that are world

49:48

leaders or CEOs

49:50

or people that run hodgeponds say to

49:52

me, I'm in my most creative place.

49:55

I can just kind of seamlessly

49:58

see different things as a person. opposed

50:00

to just having one

50:03

answer. And that's the part from

50:05

a decision making and cognitive perspective

50:07

I love about this process. It doesn't

50:09

happen instantly. It happens around

50:11

week seven. So if you are going through this process,

50:14

weeks one through four, you optimize your baseline.

50:17

By week four, you start to feel the

50:19

significant ability to let go. And

50:22

by week seven, the cognitive

50:25

changes are happening. Why? There's

50:27

a bare reflex game, okay? The

50:30

way your autonomic nervous system at

50:32

baseline is moderating blood pressure

50:34

and heart rate in response to the rest of the

50:36

world is much

50:37

tighter and

50:40

much more precise.

50:41

And then with about three to four

50:43

weeks of compounded practice, the 15

50:46

minutes twice a day, and then meeting

50:48

with me for the training, my

50:51

clients start to experience the cognitive gains

50:53

around week seven. The cognitive gains are

50:55

increased focus, increased creativity,

50:58

increased authenticity, and increased cognitive

51:01

dexterity. And that dexterity

51:03

is the part that people

51:05

from many walks of life say is

51:08

the most unexpected but most appreciated

51:10

part

51:10

of this process. When you were talking about

51:13

how your physiological state affects

51:15

decision making, for me that

51:17

spoke to sort of we are animals. But

51:20

what separates humans from other

51:22

animals is that we have the ability to reason.

51:25

So we don't just react, but our default

51:27

state is almost to react, right? Fight

51:29

or flight, call it what you want, but

51:31

most animals just instinctively respond

51:34

to a situation without reasoning about it.

51:36

And it sounds like the blood

51:38

flow to our head, the scientific sort of element

51:43

of this, but also just the breathing and

51:45

centering yourself in the moment. And

51:48

I wanna tie this to that

51:50

gives us more reasoning ability, but it

51:52

also gives us more focus, which is really

51:54

interesting because basketball

51:57

players, for example, I bet you everybody on the

51:59

Celtics. bounces the ball the same

52:01

number of times before they shoot a free

52:03

throw. It's a ritual. There's like a ritualistic

52:07

element around the game. John

52:10

McEnroe, you know, you used to bounce the ball the same

52:12

number of times before he served it. What

52:16

I feel like people are doing in that moment

52:18

is using that ritual to calm

52:21

down, to center themselves. The

52:23

last play doesn't matter. It could have been your best

52:25

play, it could have been your worst play. But all that matters

52:27

right now is this moment, the shot. And

52:30

that ritual is what brings people

52:32

back. And it sounds like, Joe, for you,

52:34

it's that breathing going four

52:37

in, six out. That's the ritual

52:39

to bring yourself into that moment.

52:41

Walk me through where I'm wrong with that and where

52:44

you think I might be right. No, I mean, that's 100 percent

52:46

right. It's like it's that's

52:49

where you can resend yourself, you

52:51

know, especially when there's a stoppage of

52:53

play. It goes back

52:55

to what Doc was talking about, the cognitive

52:57

dexterity and the ability to handle transitions.

53:00

And the game is trans...

53:02

You're constantly transitioning. You're transitioning from

53:05

office to defense. You're transitioning players.

53:08

There's runs within a game. You

53:11

have to make decisions that affect transitions.

53:14

And so how can you just make the

53:16

best possible decision at the best physiological

53:18

state and then do it again a second

53:21

later, 10 seconds later? And so what

53:23

the timeout does for me is it has the ability

53:26

to resend yourself, get yourself

53:28

back to baseline, open up your mind for cognitive

53:30

dexterity, your focus, study

53:33

the transitions of the past and

53:36

then also anticipate the transitions of the next

53:38

block of the game where

53:41

you can have a positive impact where you

53:43

may have had a negative impact on it. And so like

53:45

that breathing isn't is

53:46

a huge piece to that.

53:48

But it's also not necessarily

53:51

just done during the timeout. It's done

53:53

during a free throw or it's done during

53:55

the game. And I just

53:57

keep going back to the cognitive dexterity.

53:59

have the ability to just see more, to

54:02

focus, and to instinctually

54:04

make a decision

54:06

over and over again.

54:08

There is an impact, and I hear

54:10

it often from clients,

54:12

on risk-taking. The assessment of risk

54:14

seems to be more precise, gradually

54:18

more precise, without

54:20

the cost, meaning of that

54:22

sympathetic activation. People

54:25

can, if they need to, activate,

54:28

but they also, as Joe

54:31

was mentioning, they have the

54:33

dexterity to look at

54:36

if this is a real risk, what can I

54:38

do instead. There is

54:40

a multi-strategy process, and

54:42

it's happening really fast. So there's something,

54:44

I think, happening in the amygdala as

54:47

a result of an activation through

54:49

the 0.1 Hz of breathing of the brainstem.

54:52

So there's a circuitry, and

54:54

more research needs to come out. But it's

54:56

fascinating, the assessment

54:59

of risk, the ability to take more

55:01

calculated and intentional risk, and

55:04

the ability to see other opportunities

55:06

that one might not see if

55:09

you're in that sympathetic-only state.

55:11

One of the things that we had sort of talked

55:14

about before is how we can

55:17

use this training to change our

55:20

self-narrative. I'm a big believer

55:22

in the fact that the story we

55:24

tell ourselves about ourselves is

55:27

the most powerful story in the world. And

55:29

while telling yourself a positive story doesn't

55:32

guarantee a good result, telling yourself a negative

55:34

story almost inevitably leads to

55:36

disaster. Can you walk

55:38

me through how we can use this to change our

55:40

self-narrative?

55:41

These are all physiological

55:44

processes at the very core.

55:47

Ensure there's mental layers

55:50

to how you see yourself,

55:52

how you interact with the world. But

55:54

at a physiological level, Shane, that

55:57

ability to inhibit

55:59

negative stories.

55:59

self-talk inhibit noise,

56:01

inhibit fear,

56:03

is physiologically mediated where

56:06

you can choose it. And

56:08

so the concept of, oh, just think positive

56:11

or have positive self-talk, it's very

56:13

hard for even the most elite

56:15

performers under high pressure

56:18

if they don't have physiological control.

56:20

When you have more ability over how

56:22

your heart responds, how your brain responds,

56:25

your level of muscle tension, your galvanic

56:27

skin response, these are kind of global physiological

56:30

parameters, but you have greater

56:33

control over those such that

56:36

you're not reacting in those ways without

56:39

wanting it. You are

56:42

able to make changes in how you speak

56:44

to yourself. And so

56:48

I can say to someone before they've gone

56:50

through this that you

56:52

having more positive self-talk affects

56:54

dopamine secretions, which

56:57

you need for focus and motivation, especially

56:59

during a three-hour

57:02

game, whether it's golf or basketball

57:04

or so forth. But they

57:07

may not be able to do it if

57:09

their heart reacts or they

57:12

have panic that they can't control. And

57:14

their physiological disequilibrium

57:16

then dominates how

57:19

they talk to themselves. So once

57:21

they're able to have control over

57:23

that ability to be in physiological

57:26

equilibrium or even better, that parasympathetic

57:29

dominant state, they also

57:31

get control over the narrative

57:33

they say to themselves. And it is such

57:35

an important

57:36

shift. And

57:38

it's such a beautiful

57:41

kind of circle, right?

57:43

The way we speak to ourselves, the way

57:45

our body responds, but

57:47

they interact with each other. So

57:50

once you have more control over how your body

57:52

responds, then you have more control

57:54

over your self-talk that then feeds

57:57

in to how your body further feels. So

58:01

it can be really, really interesting. People

58:05

talk about having self-compassion, but they

58:07

say, I just don't know how to do it. The

58:10

first place I would advise is

58:12

to start with training your physiology

58:14

and particularly heart rate variability

58:17

because you can gain control

58:20

over your mind through your

58:22

heart and training

58:24

those heart oscillations.

58:26

Are there any other... You said start

58:28

with HRB. What are the other physiology

58:30

things that we can do to put

58:33

ourselves in a better state?

58:34

So there are moment by moment things

58:37

like movement. You could

58:39

do 20 jumping jacks and

58:41

your physiology is going to shift. You

58:43

can listen to music. Some people self-isolate

58:46

and find a place where there's no noise and

58:49

it's almost like a little cave that feels really

58:51

safe. And so my clients

58:53

will identify some

58:55

of those tools that beyond

58:57

just breathing help to shift

59:00

their physiology quickly in

59:02

a moment to get them back to baseline.

59:04

And the one thing I say is, look, stress is

59:07

going to happen. Let's

59:09

expect it. Let's accept it. Even

59:11

with training, you're going to have a stress

59:13

response, but I want you to be

59:15

in control of how long

59:17

it lasts and be able to return to baseline

59:20

as quickly as possible or as quickly

59:22

as you need to be. So do you advocate

59:24

having a plan or I guess maybe Joe, a better way to

59:26

put this into practice is do you have a plan for

59:28

stress during the game? Like you obviously expect

59:31

it. There's thousands of people watching

59:33

you. There's millions of people on TV watching

59:35

you. There's bright lights. There's all these players.

59:39

How do you think about that going into a game?

59:42

Is it formalized? Like I have a plan for stress. Here's

59:45

how I'm going to deal with it. Or is it these are

59:47

recurring moments of stress that tend to come

59:49

up in games and based

59:51

on that pattern, now I know

59:53

how I can better control those moments. Yeah,

59:56

I think it starts before the game, just

59:58

getting your body into the proper.

1:00:00

space, get your mind into the proper space.

1:00:02

But the word that really comes up for me is just

1:00:05

being valuable. It is,

1:00:07

HRV kind of allowed me to be

1:00:10

more valuable and understanding that like,

1:00:13

yes, they're going to be stressed, but it's going to look

1:00:15

differently

1:00:16

at different times, but it's going to

1:00:18

be there. And so how can we get our body, mind and

1:00:21

heart valuable to the point where it can handle that

1:00:23

opportunity when it comes?

1:00:26

Because you don't want to put yourself in a box where it's like, okay,

1:00:28

it's going to be this and I have these,

1:00:30

I'm going to do this when this happens. Well, that might

1:00:32

not happen. And so like, that's

1:00:35

the word for me is like, be valuable,

1:00:38

be in a flow state, have the ability to oscillate,

1:00:41

have that cognitive fix area. So it's more of the

1:00:43

plan of understanding there's

1:00:46

going to be different kinds of stress at different times

1:00:48

and then how can we just approach it based

1:00:50

on how we put our physiology in the best possible state

1:00:52

to handle it at that time.

1:00:53

Yeah, it's almost like you're, I'm

1:00:55

a huge fan of positioning and your position

1:00:58

before you're in the moment often

1:01:00

dictates what happens in the moment. And

1:01:02

it sounds like this is another element that

1:01:04

we can control somewhat before

1:01:07

we reach that point to put ourselves

1:01:09

in the optimal state to handle

1:01:11

whatever the world throws at us.

1:01:13

We kind of got into it a little bit throughout the year and

1:01:15

it's like trauma. There's obviously like

1:01:17

trauma, first of all I learned is there's different

1:01:19

levels of it. Right? And so there's obviously

1:01:21

like major traumatic things that people go through

1:01:24

and that we're empathetic towards that. But then there's just

1:01:26

the trauma that we have yet to

1:01:28

heal ourselves. Right? And

1:01:31

so you mentioned something about like the story we

1:01:33

tell ourselves and what I learned through HRV and

1:01:36

going through this process was like, there's so

1:01:38

many traumatic experiences that we've all had

1:01:41

early in our life that we haven't healed yet.

1:01:44

And those end up becoming

1:01:46

the story we tell ourselves. And I believe that's how

1:01:48

it was for me. It was like some of the stories

1:01:50

I tell myself were other people's voices based

1:01:52

on the trauma that I was involved with younger

1:01:55

in life. And then I just haven't

1:01:57

healed through it yet. I haven't given it the space

1:01:59

and the time.

1:01:59

to.

1:02:00

And so, you know, during our

1:02:03

HIV or training sessions, when

1:02:05

you had to sit through

1:02:08

the love, we had to sit through, we also had to sit

1:02:10

through some of the trials, we went down that path.

1:02:13

And that's where I was able to reshift,

1:02:16

you know, self talk. And

1:02:19

it kind of started with like, I don't, she mentioned

1:02:21

self compassion, I have, I have like zero, maybe

1:02:23

up to like 10%. But I

1:02:26

am really bad when it comes to like, you

1:02:29

know, being compassionate toward yourself. And

1:02:31

like, we got to the root of like myself,

1:02:33

my lack of self compassion comes from the trauma

1:02:36

that we left open earlier in our life. So let's go

1:02:38

back there. Let's sit in that, in

1:02:41

that feeling in that emotion. And

1:02:43

then let's heal through it. And then that will,

1:02:45

you know, end up leading towards

1:02:48

the compassion that you have for yourself. Because as

1:02:50

much as we say we're the story we tell ourselves, I think we're

1:02:52

the story of all the traumatic,

1:02:55

good and bad experiences that we've had earlier in life that

1:02:58

we just haven't dealt with yet.

1:02:59

Beautiful, the imprints of

1:03:02

our life experiences, both the beauties

1:03:04

and the traumas are all within us

1:03:07

and create a

1:03:08

responding

1:03:11

to the world

1:03:12

that shapes us

1:03:13

and understanding what they

1:03:15

are, both the triggers and the amplifiers

1:03:18

and then being able

1:03:21

to sit with them as opposed

1:03:23

to run from them and feel like you

1:03:25

can handle them. Because

1:03:28

you have something that allows you

1:03:30

to feel deeply and also let go

1:03:33

when you need to, let you

1:03:35

integrate these experiences so you can

1:03:37

harness them as energy and

1:03:39

fuel and passion as opposed

1:03:41

to compartmentalize them. And so

1:03:44

fascinating how,

1:03:47

how often people

1:03:50

just want to avoid and compartmentalize

1:03:52

and how much energy is,

1:03:55

is tied up in just pushing it

1:03:57

down.

1:03:58

And then there's this unlock. where

1:04:00

you feel the experience and you

1:04:03

feel the ability to integrate, sit with

1:04:05

it, and it's not in a way that terrorizes.

1:04:09

It's a way, there's usually something I call a

1:04:11

heart clearing,

1:04:12

and it happens around week four, time

1:04:14

and time again, because that's when

1:04:16

the reflex

1:04:17

gain can be measured. It's interesting,

1:04:19

isn't it, that as the autonomic

1:04:22

nervous system measurably amplifies

1:04:25

its ability to be

1:04:26

more precise, any

1:04:29

kind of threads that want to be

1:04:31

integrated release

1:04:32

itself, and there can be, you know,

1:04:34

just an outflow, and it just

1:04:37

happens once, maybe twice,

1:04:39

of emotion, but it's an integrative

1:04:42

experience as opposed to one that's

1:04:44

terribly uncomfortable or disarming,

1:04:48

and allows people to

1:04:50

feel what

1:04:52

they've gone through and then

1:04:54

harness it into a different experience.

1:04:57

So the trauma pieces is really

1:05:00

interesting and can happen to anybody.

1:05:02

I, you

1:05:04

know, talk therapy has

1:05:09

been regarded as,

1:05:10

you know, a way to go through trauma

1:05:13

with mixed results, EMDR has

1:05:15

that physiological component, but

1:05:18

HIV, there's this natural process.

1:05:20

People don't often come in saying, I need to heal from trauma.

1:05:23

They say I want to be a better performer, but healing

1:05:25

from something in the past is

1:05:28

one of the steps along the way.

1:05:29

Because that's getting in the way of being a better

1:05:31

performer. In

1:05:32

terms of optimizing, you take

1:05:34

someone with, with Joe's innate,

1:05:37

you know, just talent,

1:05:40

and being at that talent 99% of

1:05:42

the time over and over and over, irrespective

1:05:45

of the circumstances or the inputs, and

1:05:48

getting through things that

1:05:51

immobilize a

1:05:52

person or us based on the

1:05:54

past is part of that.

1:05:56

Maybe this is a silly question, but

1:05:58

how do we know?

1:05:59

when that trauma helps

1:06:03

us

1:06:04

and how do we know when it hurts us? That's

1:06:07

not a silly question at all. I mean that was the question

1:06:09

I had for Doc during

1:06:11

the process. He's like, one,

1:06:14

building an awareness to the fact that the trauma is

1:06:16

having an effect on you. Is it a positive

1:06:18

or a negative? And then where is it affecting

1:06:20

you? And how do you navigate that? And

1:06:24

a lot of it comes down to that.

1:06:26

And so I'll give you an example. Like

1:06:29

this job means more to me

1:06:31

than anything. One, because I'm

1:06:33

from the medium, but two, I

1:06:36

got hired by this other person as an assistant coach in

1:06:38

the same month that my dad got diagnosed

1:06:40

with brain cancer. And so like these two,

1:06:42

this job is tied together by like a strong

1:06:45

positive emotion and a very strong

1:06:47

negative emotion. And then what I

1:06:49

realized was like, I never actually really

1:06:53

dealt with the trauma of that. And

1:06:55

so I, and when I ended up,

1:06:57

I started to be coming into the head coaching

1:07:00

and you start to feel different things and you start

1:07:02

to learn more about yourself. And as we got into the process,

1:07:04

I was like, yeah, this is

1:07:07

having a direct effect on this. And I haven't

1:07:09

really dealt with this. Like I thought I have. Okay.

1:07:11

We need to go back and like, how do we deal

1:07:14

with this, this trauma? How do we deal with this

1:07:16

emotion? How do you deal with this? You have

1:07:18

to bring it back out. And then once you

1:07:21

bring it back out, you have to let it go. But like, you

1:07:23

know, especially throughout the second half of the season,

1:07:26

you know, that became like, this

1:07:29

job is tied into this and it's bigger than all

1:07:31

this. And like, how do we just navigate that, you

1:07:34

know, into self expression, into oscillation,

1:07:36

into a positive, how do you navigate

1:07:38

all that? So I guess kind of an example of like us going

1:07:40

back to a traumatic experience.

1:07:43

Where is it having an impact on me? And then how do we,

1:07:46

you know, move that forward?

1:07:47

It's pretty cool, actually. I never thought I

1:07:50

was going to

1:07:51

get that deep in, but it really, you

1:07:53

know, I got into it to become a better coach

1:07:55

and it made me a better person.

1:07:57

There's a final question that I always ask. It has

1:07:59

nothing to do.

1:07:59

with HRV, but I want to ask both

1:08:02

of you, what does success mean

1:08:04

to you? I think it changes. I think

1:08:06

it always changes. But for

1:08:08

me personally, as bad as

1:08:10

I want to win and as important as

1:08:13

winning is, I think it comes down to

1:08:15

how consistent can you be? How

1:08:18

consistent can you be in the things that you're trying

1:08:20

to achieve towards on a daily basis?

1:08:23

How consistent can you be as a person? How consistent can

1:08:25

you be in your career as a parent, in your marriage?

1:08:28

For me, I just try to focus on consistency

1:08:31

and I try to be the

1:08:33

same, if not a better person

1:08:35

than I was a year ago. Constantly

1:08:37

finding small things in your

1:08:39

life to reinvent. One of the things

1:08:42

I like to do is pick a word, whether it's

1:08:45

for a year, whether it's for six

1:08:48

months and use that word to

1:08:50

have it affect every area of my life

1:08:54

to where I can just try to be better. And

1:08:57

so that's kind of the definition for me is just how consistent

1:08:59

can you be in your approach towards improvement

1:09:03

and learning.

1:09:03

I look at success from an

1:09:06

autonomic perspective and

1:09:09

what it not

1:09:13

a success, right? Joe's concept of

1:09:15

consistency and performing

1:09:17

as your best self consistently

1:09:19

over time irrespective of the circumstances.

1:09:22

But the state,

1:09:22

the

1:09:24

physiological state to get there,

1:09:27

I see

1:09:29

as openness, I see as

1:09:31

attunement to those shifts in momentum

1:09:34

and staying nimble no matter

1:09:36

what life brings you, staying nimble

1:09:39

and being able to awesomely.

1:09:53

It's been awesome. Thank you guys so much. Thank

1:09:55

you Shane. Great to talk with you. Thank you.

1:10:02

Thanks for listening

1:10:04

and learning with us. For

1:10:07

a complete list of episodes, show notes,

1:10:09

transcripts, and more, go

1:10:12

to fs.blog slash podcast.

1:10:15

Or just Google the Knowledge Project.

1:10:18

Until next time.