0:00

So I think we got here through

0:02

a lot of what I call bad

0:04

therapy. Bad therapy is any therapy that

0:06

introduces new symptoms or makes existing symptoms

0:08

worse. And by that I mean we're

0:10

teaching them over and over. Your feelings

0:13

are the most important thing. That's what

0:15

we're broadcasting when we constantly ask them

0:17

how they're feeling. When we constantly ask

0:19

them if they're happy, we're fretting over

0:21

their happiness. So we've made happiness a

0:23

goal. Making happiness your goal

0:25

is a way to make you unhappy. We're

0:28

teaching kids that can never ignore any distress,

0:30

they've never ignored any pain, and so they're

0:32

not able to do it. Welcome

0:50

to The Knowledge Project, a biweekly

0:53

podcast exploring the powerful ideas, practical

0:55

methods, and mental models of others.

0:58

In a world where knowledge is power,

1:00

this podcast is your toolkit for mastering

1:02

the best of what other people have

1:04

already figured out. I'm

1:06

your host, Shane Parrish. Before

1:08

we dive in, I have a quick

1:10

favor to ask. If you're enjoying the

1:12

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or YouTube, please hit the follow button

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you'll support the show you love. Check

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out the link in the show notes for more information. Okay,

1:50

if you're listening with a child around, now might

1:52

be a good time for you to put on

1:54

your headphones. While this is bound

1:57

to be a controversial episode, I want to

1:59

remind you that as is the

2:01

case with all of our guests, my job

2:03

is to explore a subject through the eyes

2:05

of our guests in a non-judgmental way. If

2:08

you have a real mental health issue, this

2:10

episode is not for you. If however, you

2:12

have a nagging feeling that therapy isn't helping

2:14

you or your kids as much as you

2:17

thought it should or you just want to

2:19

learn more about the topic, sit back and

2:21

listen. Today my guest

2:23

is Abigail Schreier, author of the

2:25

book Bad Therapy. In

2:27

a world where mental health challenges are on

2:30

the rise, particularly among youth,

2:32

Abigail's work offers a critical

2:34

examination of the failings in

2:36

our current approach to therapy.

2:39

In this episode, we use the

2:41

counterintuitive question, how would

2:43

we raise children to be as

2:45

mentally unstable as possible in order

2:48

to explore the key principles and

2:50

practices that are essential for fostering

2:52

resilience and independence in our children

2:54

and ourselves? We

2:56

don't just talk about kids, we also

2:59

explore the concept of therapist as best

3:01

friend for adults, questions you can ask

3:03

before engaging a therapist, and

3:05

when it's time to end your relationship

3:07

with a therapist. We also

3:09

discuss the societal trends contributing to the

3:12

decline in mental health, the

3:14

role of technology in social media, and

3:16

the responsibility of parents and therapists in

3:18

addressing these issues. Abigail shares

3:20

insights on how other cultures approach childering

3:22

differently and what we can learn from

3:25

their successes. Throughout our

3:27

conversation, we uncover problems in the

3:29

mental health field from the protocols

3:31

that prioritize ideology over individual needs

3:33

to the graduate schools that produce

3:35

bad therapists. By listening

3:37

to this episode, you'll gain a deeper

3:40

understanding of the complex factors shaping our

3:42

children's mental well-being and the steps we

3:44

can take to redesign our approach to

3:46

therapy and parenting. Abigail's insights will empower

3:49

you to make informed decisions and advocate

3:51

for change in a system that, at

3:53

least based on the numbers, is failing

3:55

our youth. It's

3:58

time to learn. listen and

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at the checkout for 30% off. I

5:43

was thinking about how to start this conversation and I

5:46

think we should actually start with the inverse. Instead

5:49

of talking about how to raise

5:51

strong, healthy, capable children who are

5:54

independent, how would we

5:56

raise them to be as mentally

5:58

unstable as possible? That's something

6:00

I looked at and the the

6:03

answer seems to be and I'm a journalist. I

6:05

interviewed a lot of experts

6:07

in terms of People who

6:09

are familiar with the psychological research So not

6:11

not the people who hold themselves out as

6:13

mental health experts guiding everyone But the people

6:16

who are actually conducting and familiar with the

6:18

psychological research and if we wanted to

6:20

make kids Disregulated here's what

6:22

we would do. We

6:24

would obsess over their emotions We

6:26

would ask them constantly how they

6:28

were feeling about things. We

6:31

would ask them to pay attention to their

6:33

feelings so therefore broadcast that

6:35

their feelings were an important and

6:37

and reliable guide to Whether

6:41

how they were doing in life We

6:43

would treat them as in isolation treat

6:45

them as very special and unique and

6:48

isolated from everyone

6:50

else unique in the world never

6:52

give them a sense that their actions had an

6:54

had a Effect on

6:57

others. So therefore they had no

6:59

responsibility to others to sort of be a

7:01

good citizen whether that's on You

7:03

know an airplane or in a classroom, but

7:05

constantly talk about them as unique We

7:08

would give them diagnosis Diagnoses

7:11

for ordinary behaviors. We would pathologize

7:13

ordinary behaviors and treat them to

7:15

see themselves as disordered Oh,

7:18

that's just you know, you have ADHD. Oh,

7:20

that's your oppositional defiance disorder. That's why you

7:22

acted out so instead of using the sort

7:24

of lay terms we've always used that have

7:26

to do with character like You

7:29

know being a jerk in class or being

7:31

inappropriate in class We would say no That's

7:33

your oppositional defiance disorder So treat them to

7:35

see it as a brain problem so that

7:37

they never felt they had any agency to

7:39

do anything about it and we

7:42

would teach them to focus on happiness and

7:44

wellness all the time and I

7:46

think if we did all those things we would end up with what

7:48

we have which is a very dysregulated generation when

7:50

you use the word Disregulated. What do

7:52

you mean? We're seeing kids

7:55

high school students University students who

7:57

cannot control their emotions so teachers

8:00

that elementary school kids and even

8:02

high school kids are throwing tantrums

8:04

in the classroom like they've never

8:06

seen before. And we're

8:08

seeing even as, you know, this young

8:10

rising generation goes off to the workplace,

8:12

if their feelings are hurt

8:15

at the workplace, they will complain to HR

8:17

and try to get their boss fired. That

8:19

seems to them a reasonable

8:21

response to something not going the

8:23

way they expected in the workplace.

8:25

They want everything to stop for

8:27

them. How did we get here? So

8:30

I think we got here through a

8:32

lot of what I call bad therapy.

8:34

Bad therapy is this is any therapy

8:36

that introduces new symptoms or makes existing

8:38

symptoms worse. And by that, I mean

8:41

all this feelings focused with kids. We're

8:43

teaching them over and over. Your feelings

8:45

are the most important thing. That's what

8:47

we're broadcasting when we constantly ask them

8:49

how they're feeling. When we constantly ask

8:51

them if they're happy, we're fretting over

8:54

their happiness. So we've made happiness a

8:56

goal. The researchers can tell you,

8:58

and there's a lot of good research on

9:00

this, making happiness your goal is a way

9:03

to make you unhappy because

9:05

most of life, we're not exactly happy,

9:07

right? We're thinking about the work we

9:09

have. We're frustrated. We have

9:11

a worry that's bothering us. Maybe we

9:14

have an itch or an allergy or

9:16

a slight pain that we have to

9:19

repress to get on with the business of our

9:21

lives. And we're doing the

9:23

opposite with that. We're teaching kids that

9:25

can never ignore any distress. They've never

9:27

ignored any pain. And so they're not able

9:29

to do it. But how did

9:31

that start? Like, how did this all come

9:34

into society? Like, did it

9:36

go slowly and then all at once? Like, was

9:38

this, you know, one bad actor

9:40

or one person like ceded this idea

9:42

and it took hold? Like how did

9:44

it? Because it seems like everybody's just

9:46

following the protocol. But who's

9:48

creating these protocols? Like, how did this happen?

9:52

I think that we created a window or

9:54

an opening and parents as a group did.

9:56

How did we do this? We

9:58

had lived through a lot of divorce. We had

10:00

had a lot of broken

10:02

homes ourselves, and we were really

10:04

worried that we weren't gonna do things properly. We

10:07

needed an expert. And in

10:09

America in general, and across the West,

10:11

we've become more and more reliant on

10:13

so-called experts. Even for ordinary things, we

10:16

don't trust ourselves to handle our lives

10:18

in the way that we used to,

10:20

right? We think that basically our lives

10:22

require a certain amount of expertise.

10:25

And child-wearing especially, we've become

10:27

totally unconfident in

10:30

our ability to raise kids, even

10:32

though the project of raising kids

10:34

really hasn't changed in what kids

10:36

need over centuries. I mean,

10:38

kids need the same things from us,

10:40

but instead we've convinced ourselves that it's

10:42

a highly technical project. You need to

10:45

know about a child's amygdala to do

10:47

it right. And that's

10:49

what the experts have been saying. It's not

10:51

true. It flies in the face of all

10:53

the good psychological research, but nonetheless, I do

10:55

think all these factors have undermined our confidence

10:58

that we knew what we were doing. And

11:01

so then we turn to really bad advice

11:03

from a whole lot of people who I

11:05

think very often mean well, but they're giving

11:07

very bad advice. And some of the times

11:10

their science is just garbage. And

11:13

they've been promoting the idea of

11:15

trauma. Trauma is everywhere in our

11:17

world. This is their idea that

11:20

anything we do, anytime you yell at

11:22

a kid that can traumatize a kid,

11:24

that injury, emotional injury can be with

11:26

them for a lifetime, it's not true.

11:28

It's not what the best research has

11:31

shown, but nonetheless, they peddle this in

11:33

the popular culture and it makes parents

11:35

stricken and afraid to basically assert themselves

11:37

as the authority and really have any

11:40

discipline with their kids. A

11:42

lot of the issues you raise

11:44

are cultural, sort of like in

11:46

terms of resilience weakening, the abdication

11:48

of parental responsibility. These are big

11:51

social trends that are going on.

11:53

How much of the problem do you think

11:55

goes to therapy versus

11:58

parenting practices versus...

12:00

that we're all just sort of

12:02

like following the momentum. So

12:04

I think it's all essentially bad therapy.

12:07

And this is why, because who's in

12:09

charge, who's running the show? And

12:12

today with children, with families, it

12:14

really is the mental health experts.

12:16

If you doubt that, just think for a

12:19

moment about the fact that the rising generation

12:21

never says it's shy. They say they have

12:23

social phobia. They never say they're sad. They

12:25

say they're depressed. They never say,

12:27

gosh, they went through a tough time in

12:29

middle school. They say they have PTSD. They're

12:32

speaking the language of psychopathology to

12:35

understand themselves and each other.

12:37

Parents are practicing the techniques

12:39

taken from therapists and psychologists.

12:42

Those are the techniques they're aping when they talk

12:44

to their children. There's nothing

12:46

natural about the way parents now behave

12:48

with kids. They get down to eye

12:50

level. They constantly solicit their kids' feelings.

12:53

And they talk in the language, I

12:55

see you're having some big feelings now.

12:58

They're reading a script, and the script

13:01

is supplied from therapists. And

13:03

then the final piece is schools,

13:05

where they are openly, they're mandated

13:08

as trauma-informed care across public schools,

13:10

social emotional learning. And teachers and

13:12

counselors, armies of counselors, are playing shrink

13:14

with the kids all day long. I

13:17

was talking to somebody recently who said, the worst

13:19

thing you can do to a 12-year-old is try

13:21

to be their best friend. The worst

13:23

thing you can do to a 40-year-old is try to

13:25

parent them. Do you think that we're just trying to

13:27

be our kids' friends? How

13:29

do you see it as a parenting level? Yes

13:31

and no. So I think that's a piece of

13:34

it, for sure. We're trying to be our kids'

13:36

friends. But we're also treating them as adults. That's

13:39

what that means. When you say you're trying to

13:41

be your kids' friends, first of

13:43

all, you say, I'm not the authority here.

13:45

Now, there's great research showing that kids actually

13:48

do need authority. They need their parents in

13:50

charge. And if their parents aren't in charge,

13:52

they go looking for authority elsewhere. Kids really

13:54

need authority in terms for

13:56

their mental health, for their stability, for everything,

13:58

for success in life. really need their

14:00

parents in charge, which doesn't of

14:02

course mean being cold and unloving. It just means

14:05

that parents are in charge and they have rules.

14:08

You said being their friends, it's sort of,

14:10

in some ways it's worse than that

14:13

because yes, they're being their kids' friends,

14:15

but they're also assuming that the

14:18

kids are little adults. So for

14:20

instance, when they play the

14:22

role of therapist with a child and

14:24

say, I'm just here to affirm your

14:27

emotions, remember that a kid

14:29

is still figuring out which of his emotions

14:31

make any sense at all, right?

14:33

A toddler will feel rage if

14:35

you don't give him the, you

14:38

know, the snacks he wanted

14:40

and you have to teach a kid that's

14:42

not appropriate. You can

14:44

be, you know, you can be disappointed,

14:46

but screaming and even feeling rage, that's

14:48

not what we feel anger about. We

14:50

feel anger about lots of things in

14:52

life, but you can't feel rage and

14:55

throw your Cheerios across the floor because

14:57

across the room because you didn't get the

14:59

snack you wanted. And

15:01

they actually, you have to sort of educate

15:03

their emotions a little bit. You

15:05

don't do that with adults, right? Mostly

15:08

you want to sort of, you know,

15:11

as a therapist, therapists usually want to

15:13

create a space where people, where adults

15:15

feel comfortable opening up about emotions they

15:18

might feel embarrassed about, right? But

15:20

with kids, they're just trying to figure out which

15:23

of these emotions make any sense. So

15:25

the last thing we want to do is what

15:27

we've been doing is affirm every one of their

15:29

emotions, no matter how extreme

15:32

or dysregulated, and then talk to them

15:34

as if we're all just, we're all

15:36

just, you know, feelers here.

15:38

We're all just emotional feelers trying

15:40

to understand each other. That's

15:43

not actually what kids need. They need an adult

15:45

in charge. When you say parental

15:47

authority, what does that mean specifically? Sure.

15:50

So I'm using the language that Diana

15:52

Bomer and used. That's a child psychologist

15:55

or sorry, she's an academic researcher, psychologist

15:57

of the 1960s. And

15:59

she... was the first one to invent

16:01

what was now what's now known as parenting

16:04

styles, but she didn't really invent it. She

16:06

actually was curious, how were Americans raising their

16:08

kids and what was the result? And

16:11

she went in with an open mind. And what

16:13

she found, there were roughly, you

16:16

know, three types, you know,

16:18

authoritarian, cold, unloving and

16:20

obedience focused, this basically

16:22

doesn't exist in the West any,

16:24

any more authoritative, which

16:27

just means parents are in charge, they

16:29

set down rules. Yes, they will punish

16:31

if kids, you know,

16:33

deliberately defy those rules, but they're

16:35

loving. And, you know, they're,

16:38

you know, they're to, you know, listen and

16:40

care about their kids and even, you know,

16:42

sympathize with them. But but the parents are

16:44

ultimately in charge. And those kids always did

16:47

the best. And

16:49

this study has been replicated hundreds

16:51

of times, authoritative parenting produces the

16:53

best kids in terms of success,

16:56

emotional well being, and even

16:58

close eventual closeness with mom

17:00

and dad, and or

17:03

parents, whoever the parents may be. And

17:05

then, then the other type, which also

17:07

doesn't exist anymore is permissive parenting. This

17:10

was the parenting where it was sort

17:12

of like anything goes very laissez-faire parenting

17:14

that also had not great results. But

17:17

what we have today is I argue a little

17:19

worse, because it's permissive parenting

17:21

without at least the kids

17:24

had independence. So they were

17:26

able to develop some, you know, confidence and

17:28

capacity on their own. Today, we have surveillance

17:30

parenting, parents, you know, literally

17:33

monitoring their kids on their iPhones,

17:35

not trusting their judgment at all interfering

17:38

with, you know, interceding with every teacher,

17:40

eventually even interceding with their bosses in

17:42

the workplace, and, you

17:44

know, constantly running interference with kids, but

17:47

never having any authority with them. So

17:49

never saying to a kid, avoiding the

17:51

word no, so you know, never punishing,

17:53

never asserting a boundary

17:56

with a kid in terms of his behavior

17:58

or her behavior and what you expect. from them,

18:00

but then at the end, but then running interference

18:02

with them with all everybody else in their lives.

18:05

You mentioned the term social emotional learning.

18:07

What is that? So that is

18:09

a project in schools that's been around for

18:11

over 15 years now. And

18:14

it's across the West. They have various forms of

18:16

it across the West. But

18:18

the idea was to teach kids

18:21

emotional regulation. And it

18:23

specifically is a therapeutic intervention. It doesn't

18:25

use moral language. It's not about character.

18:28

It's always put in terms of

18:30

nonjudgmental coping techniques or

18:32

wellness techniques or anti-bullying techniques

18:35

or empathy education of

18:37

various sorts. And

18:39

the problem with

18:41

it is that however

18:43

intended in practice, it

18:45

does everything we would do if

18:48

we were going to dysregulate children,

18:50

like constantly asking them to check

18:52

on their emotions, constantly talking to

18:54

them about their bad feelings, constantly

18:57

having them think about a time when

18:59

they were sad, lonely, left out, or

19:01

disappointed. So it becomes very much like

19:03

a sort of group therapy. And

19:06

they've done these studies now. So we have some

19:08

indication that it absolutely is

19:11

leading to the results because they were

19:13

actually able to do researchers in Australia

19:15

and England actually tested this, separate groups

19:17

of researchers. And they were

19:19

able to show that the kids in

19:21

the control group who didn't go through

19:23

these practices ended up happier, better adjusted,

19:25

better in terms of depression and anxiety

19:28

and lower depression, lower

19:30

anxiety, and also less alienated

19:32

from parents. Because the other

19:35

bad thing about it is it tees up

19:37

a criticism of parents. Because of course, if

19:39

you're going to sit around with kids ruminating

19:41

about a time when they were sad, lonely,

19:43

left out, well, whose job was it to

19:45

keep them safe? So criticism of parents is

19:47

almost inevitable. I remember my

19:49

mom never asked me how I felt as

19:51

a kid or what I wanted or where

19:53

we could go for dinner or any of

19:56

these things. But she also spanked me and

19:58

had all these other disciplinary measures. Do

20:00

you think we've progressed in positive ways

20:03

as parents or is it all sort

20:05

of actually going back to that sort

20:07

of Classic I would say 70s and

20:09

80s parent is a better thing for

20:12

society Nobody wants to

20:14

go back. Let me just say nobody wants

20:16

to go back I don't think we could

20:18

we're a lot more sort of emotionally as

20:20

aware as it were as a society We've

20:22

decided that it's really important to be in

20:24

tune with your kids emotionally and we want

20:26

that closeness with our kids And we want

20:28

that affection and I'm

20:30

not suggesting that we shouldn't have all those things.

20:33

The problem is the question is What

20:35

do you want and what are the kids need? You

20:39

can be as affectionate as you want But

20:41

you can't not give the be the authority

20:43

in your home because that turns out to

20:45

be essential for their mental health Thinking the

20:48

people who love me the most are the

20:50

ones in charge not the therapist my mom

20:52

hired not the pediatrician Who's bossing my mom

20:54

around? My mom or dad or

20:56

whatever the parent is they are in charge

20:58

the people who love me most know what's

21:01

best for me That basic idea is something

21:03

kids need. So However,

21:05

your style is beyond that That's

21:08

up to you, right? If you're a

21:10

super lovey person go for it, you know,

21:13

whatever That's not the

21:15

stuff. There's good research on what's good

21:17

What there's good research on is then

21:19

when you have an absence of authority

21:22

They kids don't do very well. Do you think

21:24

this is like systemic of sort of our

21:26

generation? I assume we're about the same age.

21:28

I think our kids are close enough that

21:30

we can say that Where

21:32

I used to see this in the workplace

21:35

as well where people would follow the protocol

21:38

And they could never get in trouble

21:40

following the protocol even if they knew it

21:42

led to a dead end because it's like

21:44

I'm just doing my job and there's sort

21:46

of like I see a Parallel here for

21:49

parenting which is I'm just relying on the

21:51

experts. I'm just doing like there's no sort

21:53

of agency or response That you know, it's

21:55

almost a weird abdication of responsibility in the

21:58

sense of I'm just following other

22:00

people suggest? I

22:02

get that. I'll say this, parents are

22:05

pouring in way more time to their

22:07

kids than the previous

22:09

generation. So it's hard

22:11

for me. I don't personally blame parents, right?

22:13

They have so little confidence right now because

22:16

we've done, because the mental health industry has

22:18

done everything it can to divest them of

22:20

any sense that they know what they're doing,

22:23

right? I mean, in school materials, they

22:25

refer to parents as caregivers. They're

22:27

telling the kids, your parents are just service

22:30

providers. They're caregivers, like

22:32

any other service provider. And

22:35

then they have trusted adults in the

22:37

materials. This is all across America. Trusted

22:40

adults, who is a trusted adult, any adult

22:42

a child can trust. It could be a

22:44

school counselor. It could be, but it's definitely

22:46

not assumed to be the parents. I

22:49

mean, parents are so denigrated in

22:51

our society. So it's not

22:53

surprising that they would feel ill-equipped to

22:56

handle the kids. And also, we're not

22:58

giving the kids the healthiest lives. When

23:01

you start out the day with an iPad

23:04

with your kid, he's going to have trouble

23:06

concentrating in school. That

23:08

doesn't necessarily mean he has a brain problem.

23:10

We won't know if he has a brain

23:12

problem unless we make his environment a little

23:14

cleaner, right? By which

23:16

I mean less chaotic. Kids

23:19

really do need structure, right?

23:22

And they definitely don't need to be constantly titillated

23:24

by things like an iPad because it will make

23:26

it harder for them to have

23:28

an attention span for school, which is

23:30

more boring, usually, than an

23:32

iPad. So first

23:35

thing we have to do is

23:37

give kids a healthier environment, which

23:39

goes from everything from exercise to

23:41

time in person with extended family,

23:43

all things kids need. People

23:46

who love them and they love back over

23:48

a lifetime, that's essential for our well-being. Whether

23:51

it's cousins, neighborhood kids, and extended family. So

23:53

first we have to give them a healthy

23:56

life, but instead we give them an unhealthy

23:58

life and then we pour in more. mental

24:00

health resources, and we don't notice they're getting

24:02

worse and worse. How did

24:04

parents so easily get convinced that

24:07

we're not the authority? It's

24:10

a good question. Why did we all buy in?

24:12

I think, you know, the culture shifted over time

24:14

so you sort of don't notice the temperature of

24:16

the waters changing, you know? Like, I'll

24:20

give you just one silly example, but

24:22

for my kids' school, every time there's

24:24

a national catastrophe or, you know, a

24:26

school shooting or anything else, I get

24:28

an email from the kids' high

24:31

school's guidance department telling

24:34

me, informing me of

24:36

the good tactics for how to talk

24:38

to my children about this national event.

24:41

We just accept it. No one's ever asked

24:43

me, how would you like me to talk

24:45

to your children about the school shooting? No,

24:47

they tell me how to talk to my

24:50

own kids, and nobody bats an eye. Now,

24:53

the school mental health staff may not have

24:55

children. They may not have

24:57

raised any of them successfully to adulthood, and

25:00

we certainly never get to see what the product of

25:02

their great tips are, but nonetheless, they

25:04

feel totally comfortable marching into my home and telling

25:07

me how I should be talking to my kids

25:09

about a national catastrophe. It really is a slip

25:11

that happened over time. I mean, I took my

25:13

son to an urgent care clinic for a bad

25:15

stomach ache that wasn't going away after he got

25:17

home from summer camp, and after we

25:19

were done and they decided it was just dehydration,

25:22

it wasn't appendicitis, they said, oh, now we're going

25:24

to do our mental health screener. We

25:26

asked the parents leave the room, and I got

25:28

up to leave, and I had already written

25:30

this book, and I still got up to leave, and

25:33

it was only because I'm like, what are you doing?

25:35

Why are you getting up to leave? Then

25:37

I sat back down and I said, could I please see your

25:39

mental health screener? And I took a picture of it with my

25:41

phone, and it was created by

25:43

our National Institute of Mental Health. This

25:46

is a federal government agency, and they decided,

25:48

and this is part of the protocol, kids

25:50

aged eight and up, they asked the parents

25:52

to leave, and then they asked the children

25:54

five escalating questions and alone in a room

25:56

with this person about whether they might want

25:58

to care for them. kill themselves. It

26:01

is so irresponsible to be doing this

26:04

with kids. It's so

26:06

bananas. But I

26:08

think we've gradually accepted their greater,

26:10

greater role in society, by

26:13

the way, which flies in the face of

26:15

all kinds of research about suicide and suicide

26:17

contagion, which we have, but they don't seem

26:19

to be paying any attention to the research.

26:21

And they're doing things that are the opposite

26:23

of what you would do if you're paying

26:25

attention to the research. We're

26:28

almost encouraging it in a very subtle

26:30

way, it sounds like. Yeah,

26:32

that's right. I mean, the obsession

26:35

with suicide with children. And

26:37

when I say obsession, I don't mean

26:40

privately being concerned as adults and working

26:42

on this problem, which is real, but

26:45

telling the kids all the time, here

26:47

are the suicide headlines. We put them

26:49

around the school, constantly

26:52

giving them surveys about suicide. What

26:54

you're doing is you're telegraphing kids

26:56

kill themselves. And

26:58

also, it's normal to kill themselves, to

27:02

kill yourself. And also, here are

27:04

techniques you might be tempted to

27:06

use. All this stuff is in

27:08

the mental health surveys. It's the opposite of

27:10

what you would do if you're being responsible

27:13

about, you know, mental health concerns with

27:15

young kids. I

27:17

remember reading about this study they did a

27:20

long time ago, if I'm getting it right, there

27:23

was sort of litter in the forest. And

27:26

they found this spot where people would just leave a

27:28

little bit of litter. And then they put up a sign

27:31

saying no littering. And the amount of litter increased, because

27:34

it sort of reminded people that they could litter

27:36

in a way. I don't know, like it was

27:38

a really weird finding. But what you're saying reminded

27:40

me of that. The CDC has

27:42

great research on this, which is that

27:44

if you present, if you

27:47

normalize suicide with kids, if

27:49

you presented as a means of coping

27:51

with distress, you know, basically telegraphing,

27:53

this is something other kids are doing

27:55

when they feel sad, you constantly ask

27:57

them, how are they feeling? And also

27:59

present the idea that if you're struggling,

28:01

this is something some kids do. If

28:05

you make a

28:07

hero of kids who are going through mental

28:09

health struggles, right? If you

28:11

valorize it, we know it's valorized today. And

28:14

if it's repetitive, if you're repetitive in

28:16

your mention, then

28:18

you're going to increase suicide in the population. And

28:21

that's what we're doing in schools. Do we

28:23

valorize other things? Well, we

28:25

definitely don't valorize grit.

28:29

We don't valorize putting your emotions to

28:31

one side and getting on with life.

28:34

Deciding that on a tough day, you're going

28:36

to still show up for practice on time

28:38

and do a great job for the team.

28:41

We don't valorize that anymore. We

28:44

don't valorize agency, making a turnaround

28:47

in your life, even though you've been

28:49

through something hard. And the

28:51

saddest thing is kids can. These

28:54

are all things we're born with,

28:56

the ability to overcome adversity. Instead,

28:59

we tell the kids the opposite. Your

29:01

parents are divorced. You've had trauma. Let's

29:03

talk about it. It's the worst

29:06

thing we could do for a kid who'd been

29:08

through something hard. We should be telling them the

29:10

opposite. Listen, in your family, do you know what

29:12

your grandfather went through? Do you know what your

29:14

great grandfather went through? You shouldn't

29:16

feel bad about that. You should feel so proud

29:20

because that's what people in our line have

29:22

overcome. And you can overcome tough things, too.

29:24

I know you can. Is

29:27

this mostly like a Canada-U.S. problem or

29:29

is this like a worldwide Western? Definitely.

29:32

America is always the worst at everything.

29:34

And I think Canada right along with

29:36

us seems to be, you know, for

29:38

these cultural fads, we're just all in

29:40

together for whatever reason.

29:42

But I do have some indication that it's

29:46

not insignificant in Europe.

29:48

And that is that while I was writing the book, trying

29:51

to put together the psychological research and

29:53

what it showed and how what we

29:55

were doing in schools was actually counterproductive,

29:57

what I found literally after I was done with the book,

30:00

was that two teams of researchers were looking

30:02

into the same things with their own coping

30:05

techniques and social emotional techniques in their own

30:07

schools, and they were testing it. So,

30:10

the fact that they were testing

30:13

it with a control group both

30:15

in the UK and in Australia

30:17

made me realize, oh, this social

30:19

emotional learning thing, this feelings focus,

30:21

this obsessing over kids' feelings and

30:23

therapy with kids, it's not just

30:25

an American or North American problem. And

30:27

the therapy isn't just with kids. I mean,

30:29

there's a lot of adults who, I

30:32

don't know, like they're continuously in therapy. Like

30:34

it's not an, I go

30:36

to therapy, I work on an issue, I

30:38

solve that issue and I leave. It's like,

30:41

you become my best friend and I go

30:43

every two weeks for years. Right.

30:45

I mean, there's interesting research on

30:47

this is a few things. One, they

30:49

found that people tend to feel

30:52

purged after they leave a

30:54

therapist's office. So they tend to

30:56

think that therapy is helping even

30:58

when objectively, when researchers check, it

31:00

isn't. So sometimes, of course,

31:02

therapy can be very helpful and very useful

31:04

and even life saving. But very

31:08

often we feel better when we leave

31:10

a therapist's office and we never check

31:12

that it, by objective markers, we may

31:14

be doing no better or even worse.

31:18

So, our own feeling about it isn't a

31:20

good guide. And when they do do these

31:23

experiments with things like, and

31:25

they look into the iatrogenic effects, meaning

31:27

when the healer introduces the harm in

31:29

therapy, there's a whole body of research

31:32

that shows, you know, people who've

31:34

gone through natural bereavement, the loss of a loved

31:36

one often feel worse after therapy. They did

31:38

these controlled studies with, you know, a control group

31:40

who didn't, who lost the loved one, but didn't

31:42

go to therapy. They did

31:44

better than the ones who went

31:46

to therapy. Same thing with, you

31:49

know, breast cancer survivors, anxiety about

31:51

it, depression about it. They

31:53

did worse if they had gone to therapy.

31:55

And also alienation from a spouse, alienation from

31:57

parents, all of these are classic iatrogenic of

32:00

therapy and there's a whole body of research on it. The

32:03

problem, I'm not saying no one

32:05

should go to therapy, but it's

32:07

very troubling to me that while

32:09

the researchers are very aware of

32:11

these risks, the practitioners of therapy

32:13

very often either minimize or deny

32:15

them, and they seem totally unaware

32:17

that sitting around with someone weekly

32:19

can encourage rumination or dwelling on

32:21

bad feelings, which of course is

32:23

the biggest symptom of depression. How do

32:25

we tackle this as a parent? And

32:28

let's say our kid is in therapy now,

32:30

what conversation should we be having with the

32:33

therapist about how's

32:35

it going? We're sort of pushed to the outside

32:37

of this, right? What happens in this room is

32:40

none of your concern, but this kid is your

32:42

responsibility. And so what conversations, I'm wondering practically speaking,

32:44

can parents have with their therapist, but like, okay,

32:46

how long are we going to be here? What

32:49

are we working on? What issues are we talking

32:51

about? Like, how are we solving this specific problem

32:53

so that we can get out? Is that a

32:55

fair conversation to have with the therapist? It's

32:58

an essential conversation to have. Here's the

33:00

thing. When you drop your kid off

33:02

to therapy, very often it

33:05

will undermine your authority with your kids, because

33:07

now you have someone who's an adult who

33:09

seems to be above the parent who sits

33:11

around with the child, basically judging your interactions

33:14

with the kid. And very

33:16

often kids will leave with a sense of,

33:18

gosh, that was, you know, my mother was

33:20

emotionally abusive, or that was wrong of my

33:22

mother to say, or whatever. That's a very

33:24

common side effect of therapy. Now, by

33:27

the way, with adults, adults can handle that.

33:29

Adults can brush things off, but a kid

33:31

doesn't have a context for evaluating, was that

33:34

abusive of my father to yell at me?

33:37

Is it abuse when a father yells at a kid?

33:39

Look, a kid shouldn't be in therapy unless they have

33:42

a real need, first of all.

33:44

So if they have a real need, then

33:46

the therapy should focus on that need, whatever

33:48

the problem is. And it should

33:51

be confined to that. If they have a

33:53

phobia, right, then the

33:55

therapy should be confined to getting them

33:57

past that phobia so they can function

33:59

in life. not to create

34:01

this perma hand holder who

34:04

also inter interferes with the

34:06

parent-child relationship for your kid

34:08

and passes judgment on the job mom

34:10

and dad are doing or

34:13

you know dad and dad however the family arrangement

34:15

right that's not a helpful situation and

34:18

here's what I want parents to know

34:20

okay and I'm not speaking to if

34:22

your child's anorexic but for God's sake

34:24

get them help I'm not poo-pooing

34:27

therapy for all kinds of things that a

34:29

child may have need for what

34:32

I want parents to know is dropping off

34:34

their kids to therapy that's not neutral and

34:37

what you want to do of course is to

34:39

get your kid out the door eventually

34:41

not to create a permanent situation where

34:44

this person is constantly overseeing your

34:46

parenting and making the child

34:49

feel and this is either stigmatized

34:52

convincing a child that they have a diagnosis

34:55

a brain problem that they'll never get past

34:57

because they're rehearsing it once a week right

34:59

or a bad incident that they're rehearsing once

35:01

a week and now it's it's gone from

35:03

a middle school crush to a giant trauma

35:06

in their lives that they think they have

35:08

PTSD from these are all really common side effects

35:10

but I want you to know something else too

35:13

if a child brings his or her problem

35:15

to an aunt to an uncle to

35:17

a grandmother at some point that person will say

35:19

or even to a friend okay

35:22

we've talked about this enough go play a

35:24

therapist will never say that to a child

35:27

now there are therapists who are really good

35:29

who will who will say

35:31

we're here for 10 sessions we're gonna work on

35:33

this phobia we're gonna get your kid past it

35:35

and let's measure let's actually track

35:38

that the anxiety is getting better but

35:40

I talked to kids who had been in therapy

35:42

since age 6 because their

35:44

parents divorced there was no need there

35:46

was nothing wrong with the child

35:49

except that the parents divorced so they figured oh

35:51

well then I have to take my get into

35:53

therapy this girl this one young

35:55

woman I profile in the book was

35:57

now 17 and she and

35:59

I asked her what she was working on, she had been in

36:01

therapy since she was six, I called her Becca in the book.

36:04

And I said, what are you working with your therapist on now?

36:06

She said, well, I'm leaving for college in the fall. And

36:08

right now we're working on getting me ready to

36:11

make friends in college. That

36:13

is a classic side effect of therapy.

36:15

It's called treatment dependency, where you don't

36:17

feel like you can make a move

36:19

as an adult things we all learned

36:21

how to do without

36:23

checking in with another adult

36:25

or expert or your therapist. So

36:28

we're really undermining kids agency by

36:31

sticking them in a kind of therapy or

36:33

a kind of emotions check in situation for

36:36

their whole lives. But we do that

36:38

as parents to like we have the best intentions,

36:40

right? So we get divorced and we're like, oh,

36:42

I want to provide the best environment

36:44

I can for my kids. So I'm going

36:47

to go see an act. I'm going to

36:49

get them to see a therapist. And then

36:51

it sort of spirals and like maybe keeps

36:53

going beyond and maybe that temperature sort of

36:55

rises slowly. But how do

36:57

we get out of that thinking that like, oh, no,

36:59

you know, there's no obvious sign my kids is it

37:01

like we're trying to be a martyr in some way

37:03

as a parent or, you know,

37:05

we're trying to create this situation where we're

37:08

I don't know, I'm struggling with this, but I think you know

37:10

what I mean. Yeah, I know I do. I

37:12

think that we have believed

37:14

that that is the protocol. You always stick your

37:16

kid in therapy. There is such thing as preventive

37:19

mental health. By the way, there isn't. Right.

37:21

We can deal with actual problems, but

37:24

preventatively, we've never been good. There's no

37:26

good study showing preventive mental health works

37:29

unless you're talking about things like

37:31

a good life like connection, doing

37:33

things for others, getting involved in

37:35

community, dancing, you know, exercising, eating

37:37

right. Those are great. Right. Having

37:39

relationships in person relationships. We know

37:41

all that's good for you. Right.

37:44

But but preventive mental health, sitting with

37:46

a therapist and talking through your parents

37:48

divorce. I don't think there

37:50

is good in studies

37:53

showing that that is necessarily good for kids. And

37:55

there are a lot of risks. And

37:57

I'll give you an example. An adult said to me recently.

38:00

A friend of mine said to me recently, she said, you

38:02

know, I wasn't sure I was

38:04

going to agree with your book, but when my parents

38:06

divorced, they stuck me in therapy just

38:08

automatically. And I didn't want to talk to my,

38:10

to this stranger about how I was feeling. I

38:13

was really sad. And this person was a stranger.

38:15

I wanted my mom. Like I was angry, but

38:17

I didn't want to talk to the stranger. And

38:19

I just thought, but she's like, but they made

38:21

me and I had to go once a week

38:24

and it was awful. And I just thought,

38:26

wow, what a healthy, normal reaction. I'm

38:29

sure she was shamed. It sounds like she was shamed. No,

38:31

of course you have to talk to a therapy. Why don't

38:33

you want to talk to her? But

38:36

what the, that's the most natural thing in the

38:38

world. I don't want to share with my stranger

38:40

about my home breaking up. I

38:42

want to talk to my parents or

38:45

someone who really loves me. And

38:47

yet today kids are made to feel

38:49

terrible, right? That's so unsophisticated. And

38:53

so it puts the therapist in this situation. Now they've got

38:55

a kid who doesn't really want to be there. So now

38:57

they pander to the kid. How do you

38:59

pander to the kid by affirming or agreeing with

39:01

everything the child comes up with? The

39:04

kid's not ready to do the hard work

39:07

of therapy most of the time. If unless

39:09

they're dealing with a serious problem like

39:12

anorexia or severe OCD, it's interfering with our life

39:14

and now they need the help, right? Cause they

39:16

can't get on with their life. They're afraid to

39:18

leave their house or they have some severe

39:20

phobia or whatever. But sitting

39:23

around talking about why I'm sad,

39:25

it's not even clear very often what the

39:27

goal is make you less sad. You

39:30

know what will make you less sad? Community,

39:32

getting involved in projects with others.

39:35

Yeah, sometimes not thinking about why you're sad.

39:39

Building new relationships, real and personal

39:41

relationships, not online. Spending

39:45

time with extended family. So

39:48

I think the project of sticking kids

39:50

who don't have a real problem in

39:53

therapy, it's got a lot of risk. And

39:56

adults too I would imagine. Yeah, but adults

39:58

are different. sort of

40:00

recognize easier. I mean, with kids, they're

40:02

so easily, I wouldn't, I

40:05

don't want to say they're easily

40:07

influenced. How's that? Yes, of course.

40:09

An adult can say, listen, I've been on

40:11

this antidepressant for three years. I have no sex

40:14

drive. I hate it. I'm ready. I'm ready to taper

40:16

off it. Can you help me taper? Yeah,

40:18

kids can't say that. They

40:21

might not even know what they're missing when it comes

40:23

to sex drive. You put a kid early enough on

40:25

antidepressants. They don't know what a sex drive

40:27

is for or why they might miss one. Right?

40:29

So you get in and start

40:31

deleting their natural resources for coping with

40:34

things. You alter them in

40:36

some giant way while they're just trying

40:38

to adjust to life. I mean, how

40:40

many adults do you know, say, yeah,

40:42

I probably had ADHD as a kid,

40:44

but you know, nobody diagnosed me. And

40:47

now I'm this incredibly successful adult. A

40:50

lot. Right? I mean, I know

40:52

so many adults in that situation. And they often

40:54

say, I wish I had gotten a diagnosis

40:56

and medication, but they turned out pretty great left

40:59

to their own devices. Now, of course, I'm

41:01

not saying that that's true of every child

41:03

or maybe kids who need the stimulant, but

41:06

stimulants are profound and they

41:08

are given out way, way too readily without

41:11

first seeing if we can adjust make

41:13

adjustments in the child's environment to

41:16

help them, you know, handle

41:18

their distractibility. You

41:20

mentioned preventative mental health.

41:23

I do think we can, like

41:26

not prevent, but we can position

41:28

ourselves to handle things through resilience,

41:31

through overcoming adversity through,

41:34

I mean, isn't that preventative mental health in a

41:36

way where you're not preventing a specific thing, but

41:38

you're sort of like, I want to put you

41:40

in a position where you can overcome whatever the

41:42

world throws at you, and it's not going to

41:44

beat you down. And you can get

41:47

through it. Yes. And you know who won't

41:49

give that to you? Mental health experts, because

41:51

then there's nothing to come back for. You

41:53

can join a church group and get

41:55

that you can join a bowling league

41:58

and all of a sudden you're happier or a day. class,

42:01

right? You can start to regulate exercise

42:04

and you will see mood improve. Now

42:07

I'm not talking about people suffering with major

42:09

depressive disorder, I want to say that again.

42:11

There are people who absolutely need an intervention

42:13

and they should get it. But

42:16

I'm talking about the average bummed out

42:18

person and certainly the bummed out kid.

42:21

The number of things we can do in our

42:23

life to set ourselves up for a good life.

42:26

Now is that preventive mental health care? No, it's

42:28

called good living and it doesn't

42:30

require a therapeutic expert who's going to undermine

42:33

the parents authority with their kids and

42:35

makes the kids, because it makes a kid

42:38

feel like, oh my parents, my problems are

42:40

too big for my parents to handle. So

42:43

they needed to call in this other person who's

42:45

sort of more expert than they are.

42:48

That's not a, that's not a, that's

42:50

not nothing to introduce. That's a

42:53

risk. It's messing with the parent-child relationship.

42:55

It's messing with the child's confidence that

42:57

the parents know what they're doing. Right?

43:00

So if you have to introduce, that's

43:02

fine. By all means, the child's suffering

43:04

bring in the therapist. You

43:06

know, then it's just a question of what kind of therapy

43:09

and who you, who you should trust. But

43:12

a child who doesn't need it, there's

43:15

a lot of things you can do to give them

43:17

a good life. But, but sitting around and talking about

43:19

their feelings with a therapist weekly, I'm not sure is

43:21

the way to get there. That's

43:24

so interesting. I mean, I was on

43:26

the Tim Ferriss podcast and the most

43:28

controversial part of that segment was that

43:30

I chose to send my kids to

43:32

a school that I

43:34

sort of overgeneralize, but doesn't really care how they

43:36

feel about their homework or, you know, if you

43:38

come in, you didn't do your homework, they'll give

43:40

you a zero. I mean, my

43:43

oldest, one of his

43:45

memories from grade seven was one kid

43:48

didn't do his homework because he didn't feel like it. And

43:50

the teacher drew a big zero on his

43:53

page and crossed it out and then told

43:55

the whole class that your homework doesn't

43:57

care how you feel about it. It needs to be done.

44:00

And I got so much flack

44:02

for this segment on the show, but

44:04

I'm sort of like, well, you know, we need

44:06

to be tough on kids and kids can overcome

44:08

a lot of this stuff. We just think they're

44:10

so fragile. And so... We're making

44:12

them fragile. Listen, a kid who gets

44:15

a zero because they didn't feel like doing

44:17

their homework. You know what the kid learns?

44:19

It could be embarrassing. It shames the

44:21

kid's behavior. But you know what else the kids learn?

44:25

I matter. When I

44:27

don't do what I'm supposed to do,

44:29

someone notices. I'm part

44:31

of this community. I'm part of this class.

44:33

And my teacher, he may

44:36

be disappointed that I didn't do

44:38

the work, but he cares.

44:40

He notices. It matters to him. I

44:43

have a role to play. And when I

44:45

do my homework tonight, he's gonna notice that

44:47

too, or she's gonna notice that too. So

44:50

yes, holding kids to high

44:52

standards, high expectations gives them

44:54

a sense. It honors them

44:57

with the sense that they have capacity,

44:59

they have capability. Obviously,

45:01

if you disappoint, if

45:03

you're giving a kid a zero, what you're saying is, you

45:05

could have done this homework. I know you could have done

45:07

it because I believe in you. I was

45:10

gonna say, when I talked to friends who send their

45:12

kids to private school, they always say the biggest difference

45:14

between private and public, they never mention

45:16

class size first. They mention

45:18

the expectations the teachers have of the kids

45:21

are higher. Expectations are one of

45:23

the greatest things you can give kids. Because

45:26

it's a way of saying, I have faith in you. You

45:28

can do great things. And

45:30

once you introduce the diagnosis and the pill,

45:32

what you're saying is, okay, you

45:35

can't totally do it on your own. You

45:37

need this, you need intervention. You have a brain

45:39

problem. And that will lead a

45:41

kid to feel like, I can't do it on my own.

45:44

Now, again, if a child absolutely requires

45:46

it, then they require it. They need

45:48

it. They need the extra help. But

45:51

if they don't, you don't

45:53

wanna introduce that message with a kid. Being

45:57

told, listen, you were lazy last

45:59

night. You didn't do your

46:01

homework. You were irresponsible. You didn't do what you were supposed

46:03

to do. A kid can make a

46:05

decision. I'm not going to do that anymore. But

46:08

if you tell them they have a brain problem, no, you

46:10

have ADHD. We're going to

46:12

change all of your requirements now. What you're

46:15

saying is you can't. One

46:17

of my close friends is a therapist

46:19

and she wanted to ask your opinion

46:21

on something which was she

46:23

said terrible therapists do terrible work which

46:26

leads to terrible results just like anybody

46:28

in any profession. The terrible people in

46:30

that profession do terrible work, get terrible

46:32

results. Do you think that grad schools

46:35

are partly to blame because they've graduated

46:37

ideologues instead of free thinkers who have

46:39

hearts and souls? So

46:41

yes, things have gotten a lot more

46:44

politicized, a lot more woke in the

46:46

world of therapy. There's no question, but

46:48

I think there's a bigger problem. And

46:50

the bigger problem is we're over treating

46:52

the population with therapy. I'm

46:55

not talking about bad therapists. I'm

46:58

talking about too much therapy. Okay,

47:01

sitting around with a child

47:03

once a week, talking about

47:06

their pains, talking about their

47:08

struggles is an unhelpful intervention

47:11

if a child doesn't need it. And I don't

47:13

care how well intentioned the therapist is. You

47:16

know that you're not doing them a good service.

47:19

You ought to know that.

47:21

And the reason is, is

47:23

they've measured things. You know

47:25

what better for mood, for

47:27

mild to moderate depression than

47:29

psychotherapy or antidepressants? Dancing. Yeah,

47:33

exercise, dancing, anything. You

47:36

could literally, instead of asking kids in

47:38

school constantly how they're feeling, you could

47:40

do anything with them. Have

47:43

them paint the gym. Have

47:45

them pick up trash. Have

47:47

them build a structure together. You could literally

47:50

have them dance. They could

47:52

do almost anything. And it would be

47:54

better than sitting around talking about their

47:56

feelings. Because guess what? Teenagers

47:58

have a lot of bad feelings. They

48:01

do. News flash. If you're going to sit around once

48:03

a week and say, come talk to me about your

48:05

feelings, wow, they're going to fill up

48:07

that session. They're going to leave

48:10

with, wow, I do have a lot of bad

48:12

things to feel sad about. You

48:15

don't do that unless a kid needs it. Absolutely

48:18

requires it. There is too much

48:21

treatment of the population. What

48:23

role do you think technology and

48:25

social media play in the mental

48:27

health challenges faced by today's kids?

48:31

Conversely, do you think parents and even therapists

48:33

who are listening to this, can help address

48:35

these issues? Sure. I think

48:37

that social media has absolutely played a

48:40

big role. It's been an accelerant for

48:42

all kinds of deteriorating mental health. It's

48:45

encouraged people in the idea that they

48:47

have a diagnosis, it's spread social contagions,

48:50

mental health, diagnoses.

48:54

Things like gender dysphoria, I wrote my last book about.

48:57

Social media absolutely played a big role, but I

48:59

don't think it's the whole story. The

49:02

reason I don't think it's the whole story is a few

49:04

reasons. But for instance, just

49:07

to give you one statistic, in 2016, the

49:10

CDC came out with a report that

49:12

one in six American children between the

49:14

ages of two and eight, had a

49:17

mental health or behavioral diagnosis. One

49:20

in six American kids in 2016, when

49:22

they were not on social media. They're not

49:24

on social media today between the ages of two and eight, but

49:26

they definitely weren't back in 2016. It's

49:29

not just about the phone. I

49:32

think the phones are bad, but it's

49:34

not just about the phone. It's about the lives

49:36

we're giving them and the

49:38

constant therapy in the culture. The

49:41

constant sense that their feelings are all

49:43

important. They are tyrannized by their own

49:45

feelings and they're tyrannizing each other. When

49:48

they should be learning to put their

49:50

feelings to one side and get on

49:52

with life, and you know what, turns

49:54

out their feelings will get better. They

49:57

will be more manageable. If you hold their conduct. to

50:00

high expectations. If you tell them, so what you

50:02

were cut from the basketball team, let's work harder

50:04

next time, or try a different sport. You

50:07

let them fail a little

50:09

bit. Yeah, Michael Jordan was cut from his

50:11

high school basketball team. There

50:14

you go. Do you think schools are

50:16

incentivized to encourage this? Because and I'm

50:18

going to walk through this in as

50:20

I think out loud here, but it

50:23

strikes me that schools get more

50:25

resources as kids to get diagnosed

50:27

and need exceptions or accommodations. So

50:29

there's almost like this hidden incentive

50:31

schools have to sort of nudge

50:33

parents to get kids, oh, you

50:35

know, your son or daughter is

50:38

a problem in the classroom. And therefore, you should

50:41

go get them tested. And when they get tested,

50:43

they come back with like, I

50:45

think in Canada, we call them IEPs, Individual

50:47

Education Plans, we have that, which is like,

50:50

oh, they really, you know, your son or

50:52

daughter really sucks at writing. So what we're

50:54

going to do is we're going to pull

50:56

them out of class, and they don't have

50:59

to write now they can just talk into

51:01

a microphone. And that's how we're going to

51:03

accommodate them. But that requires more resources for

51:05

the school. So they get funded better from

51:07

sort of whoever's funding them. And

51:09

you also conversely, not only

51:11

are you incentivized to do this and

51:13

treat every every child sort of like

51:16

they're a special snowflake, but

51:18

you're also not addressing the problem. Because

51:20

now you've, you've taken an issue, maybe

51:22

they you know, they're in the 30th

51:24

percentile for writing. And you've said,

51:26

we're not going to work on your writing anymore, you

51:28

don't have to do that. You

51:31

can do this accommodation. And so you're not

51:33

going to get better at it, because you're

51:35

not actually practicing it, right? It's

51:37

a huge problem. There is a major

51:39

conflict of interest with schools getting involved

51:41

in mental health. Huge

51:43

conflict of interest should never have been allowed,

51:46

really, except in the cases where you have

51:48

a kid who's so struggling, they need someone

51:50

to go to and talk to. And that

51:52

may be, that's not what we've

51:54

got. It's a huge conflict

51:57

of interest. They are incentivized to

51:59

keep kids bolted to their seats.

52:02

That's their incentive. And any kid who's bored,

52:04

maybe because the teacher isn't good. Or

52:07

maybe because they're not, you know, they're not good at

52:09

controlling the class or whatever. That's

52:12

the person referring you for a pill that

52:15

should never have been allowed. It's only because

52:17

of the conflict of interest. They can be

52:19

as wonderful as you want. So there's a

52:21

built-in conflict of interest. Just as you said,

52:23

the kids, schools want more mental health resources.

52:25

They want more resources. They

52:27

are implementing these surveys to show how

52:29

bad kids are struggling. And

52:31

the surveys themselves are distressing. They're asking

52:34

kids all kinds of questions about suicide

52:36

and neglect and things that might be

52:38

going on at home. And then

52:41

they're using these surveys to justify getting

52:43

more resources. This should never, ever have

52:45

been allowed. By the way, a school

52:48

counselor who engages in therapy with

52:50

a kid and they're allowed

52:52

to do it. They're giving counseling sessions

52:54

to the kids right now. That shouldn't

52:56

be allowed. Why? Because there's

52:59

a dual relationship. That

53:01

is an ethical prohibition every other

53:03

form of therapist has, which means

53:05

that if you're a therapist, you're

53:07

not allowed to give therapy to

53:09

your own child, to your neighbor's

53:11

kid, to your, you know, anyone

53:13

else you have a person, another

53:15

relationship with. Why? Because of

53:17

the potential for abuse. A

53:20

counselor knows all of a child's friends,

53:23

all of their teachers, and what do they do

53:25

the second the kid is struggling? They go in

53:27

and they use the one tool they have, accommodation,

53:29

and they get the kid excused from hard things.

53:33

So just as you said, they'll never learn to

53:36

sit through an exam in normal time, because

53:38

that's the only tool the school counselor has.

53:40

This is a terrible conflict of interest. Really,

53:43

it shouldn't be allowed. And I'm not, you

53:46

know, suggesting anything about the motives of

53:49

school counselors, it can be wonderful. But

53:51

the conflict of interest is bad. of

54:00

mental health. I know a lot of my, a lot

54:03

of people I know started going to therapy

54:05

during COVID and they're still in therapy. The

54:08

lockdowns were very hard on kids. As

54:10

parents knew, they would be. Parents protested

54:12

to keep the schools open. You

54:14

know who didn't protest? Mental health

54:17

organizations. They had nothing to say as

54:19

the schools handed in, headed into a second

54:21

year of lockdown. Parents knew this

54:24

was going to be bad. And it was. It

54:26

was very bad that we had kids in

54:28

isolation because they need those connections. And

54:30

now mental health experts present themselves as the

54:33

solution. And

54:35

look, if a child developed some

54:37

severe problem, then they may need

54:40

that solution. But in general,

54:42

do I think they can be trusted? No,

54:45

not as the solution to a problem that

54:47

was obvious and foreseeable that

54:49

they said nothing about the school

54:51

count in American. I can tell

54:53

you the school counselors association, school

54:55

psychologists association, none of these organizations

54:57

had anything to say about

54:59

their foreseeable damage that was going to happen

55:02

to kids. Now, maybe they

55:04

just didn't know. Maybe

55:06

they were afraid to speak up, but in any

55:08

case, the idea that there are now the solution

55:11

to the struggles we're seeing,

55:13

I don't think in general

55:15

they're the solution. What would you

55:17

do? Like if you sort of could

55:20

wave a magic wand and redesign the

55:22

mental health system, how

55:24

would you approach it? And, you

55:27

know, so both the mental health system and

55:29

sort of like child rearing, like how do

55:31

we get back to a baseline now of

55:34

let's say normal, whatever normal is, but like,

55:36

how do we come back from this? Because

55:39

it strikes me that it's really, really hard

55:41

to even slowly walk back from this once

55:43

it's got momentum and it's in place. And

55:47

I think we can change this because it's very bad.

55:49

And the results of all of their work, all

55:53

the mindfulness techniques for kids, regulation

55:56

is a disaster. They've failed. So

55:58

I think we can really easy. what the mental

56:00

health professionals should be doing when it comes to

56:02

kids or young people dealing with the

56:05

sick. We have so many kids

56:07

in desperate need of help. We have

56:09

schizophrenics all over our streets. The

56:12

need is enormous, but

56:14

they would rather treat the well because

56:17

it's easier and

56:19

come up with these techniques with

56:21

no proven efficacy for just bolstering

56:24

your sense of well-being. Now,

56:27

let me just say again, if an adult wants

56:29

to do that and get something out of it,

56:31

by all means, they should, right?

56:34

And adults can do any number of things

56:36

that they decide are good for their, what

56:39

makes them happy or feeling in control or

56:41

whatever else they want. The

56:43

problem is with a kid, you're

56:45

really messing with a lot when you stick

56:47

him in therapy or you treat him as

56:49

unwell because he's likely to believe it. He's

56:53

likely to believe that he has PTSD because

56:56

he was bullied or teased a little

56:58

bit in middle school, not even really

57:00

bullied, teased, made fun of. The

57:04

most normal experience in human life. And by

57:06

the way, kids who are told that's a

57:08

big deal, boy, are they in for disappointment

57:11

because the number of times you are

57:13

going to get insulted or

57:15

have your feelings hurt in life, wow,

57:18

a lot. If you lead

57:20

a good life, you're going to be criticized,

57:22

you're gonna have your feelings hurt over and

57:24

over and over. You have to be able

57:26

to handle it. You have

57:29

to if you're gonna be a strong, productive adult.

57:31

Yeah, it's funny you mentioned that. My youngest

57:33

had his feelings hurt in

57:35

class and sort of got shamed for something. He

57:38

got a poor score and one of

57:40

his student friends called

57:42

it out to the class and was like,

57:44

look how low that is. And he calls

57:46

me and he's crying and I'm like, oh

57:48

yeah, this is gonna happen all through life

57:51

and we'll deal with it and you're strong enough to get

57:53

through this. And then he got home at night. We just

57:55

pulled up some of my YouTube videos. I was like, let's

57:57

read some of the comments. Ha ha ha.

58:00

Right? Exactly. And I was like, exactly. And so

58:02

I pointed out things that people were saying about

58:04

me and he's like, why would people say those

58:06

things about you? And I was like, nobody

58:09

who does anything in the

58:11

arena, nobody who's struggling is

58:13

doing that, right? Like, you

58:15

don't see Elon Musk jumping on my

58:17

YouTube video saying, you know, this guy's

58:19

a nitwit. No, they never comment like

58:21

that stuff. Like, so I thought it

58:23

was really interesting. And he's like, huh.

58:26

And I was like, anybody in the

58:28

arena trying, you know, they might

58:31

not say anything despite what they think, but they're

58:33

not going to try to pull you down. The

58:35

people who pull you down are you got to

58:37

ignore those people. Like if I listened to all

58:39

these people, like I'd stop doing what I do

58:41

for a living. And like, that doesn't make sense

58:43

because I don't want to do that. So like,

58:46

you just have to ignore it. That's awesome that you

58:48

told him that. Yeah. Yeah.

58:51

We used to say this, we used to say sticks in

58:53

stones may break my bones. No one's heard of that. You've

58:55

heard that in a generation, right? You never hear sticks in

58:57

stones. Instead the mom, mom

58:59

or dad calls the school or calls the other

59:02

parent and says your child was bullying my child.

59:04

Well, God, you're setting them up for a bad

59:07

life. Because let me tell you, as you

59:09

just said, boy, are we criticized a lot

59:11

in life as adults by a boss, by

59:13

whatever. And one of the things that bosses

59:15

say is I can't give any constructive feedback

59:17

to the rising generation. I can't stand them

59:19

as employees because I try to give them

59:21

constructive feedback and they won't accept it. They

59:23

go to pieces. They think it's inappropriate.

59:25

And I'm trying to help them be

59:27

better workers and

59:30

more successful. It's

59:32

the opposite of what kids need. They need to

59:35

be told so what. Now, I'll

59:37

just add one caveat. We

59:39

were absolutely, we evolved to

59:41

handle being made fun of

59:44

by our group, by our class, by

59:46

whatever. But I don't think

59:48

we were, we evolved to be humiliated

59:50

in front of a million people on

59:52

social media. So I

59:54

don't think social media is a way to

59:56

toughen kids up. Is

59:58

an effective or normal? way to toughen kids up.

1:00:01

If you get dumped, if you get

1:00:03

cut from the basketball team and you have to go

1:00:05

through that humiliation in front

1:00:08

of your classmates, you will learn something. You will

1:00:11

learn something. You will say, I survived it.

1:00:13

I'm fine. I went on and did this

1:00:15

other thing. I met someone who I liked

1:00:17

more or whatever it is. But

1:00:19

humiliation on social media at

1:00:22

that scale, that

1:00:24

impersonal context, I don't think it

1:00:26

builds the same natural resources for

1:00:29

resilience. Speaking of social media and

1:00:31

sort of that culture, I

1:00:33

mean, the public campaign to

1:00:35

culture to cancel you

1:00:37

is pretty huge. What was that

1:00:40

like? How did you deal with that? Did it affect

1:00:42

you at all? Oh, yeah. I mean,

1:00:45

look, a few

1:00:47

things. So was it fun? No.

1:00:51

But I was right. I wrote

1:00:54

a book about a transgender, a

1:00:56

sudden spike in transgender identification among

1:00:58

teen girls. I thought it was

1:01:00

a socially driven phenomenon. I thought

1:01:02

these kids were going through reckless

1:01:04

medical protocols that really shouldn't be

1:01:07

allowed because or should have given

1:01:09

had more supervision, more oversight.

1:01:14

The risks weren't being explained to parents. And all

1:01:16

that was right. So am I

1:01:18

always on some people's blacklist? Yeah, I'm

1:01:20

on literal blacklists. But what was the

1:01:22

hardest? The hardest part was explaining it

1:01:24

to my kids. And anything

1:01:26

that affected our family, that's always

1:01:28

going to be the hardest part is like trying

1:01:30

to explain to them, I know that this person

1:01:33

treated us badly, but I didn't do anything

1:01:35

wrong. Okay, I

1:01:37

know that usually people treat you

1:01:39

coldly, when you're a bad person.

1:01:42

But that's not the case here.

1:01:44

I didn't do anything wrong. So explaining that

1:01:47

to my kids was hard because some people

1:01:49

took some things out on my kids. That

1:01:52

was the hardest part. And

1:01:54

look, I can't say I'm like a

1:01:56

favorite of the prestige media because they'll

1:01:58

never sort of never forgive me, even

1:02:02

though they now run articles saying exactly what

1:02:04

I said, somehow they'll never forgive me for

1:02:06

having pointed it out without their permission

1:02:08

or auspices or whatever. But

1:02:11

that's just stuff I have to deal with.

1:02:13

Meaning like, I made a decision. I made

1:02:15

a choice freely. I was going to write this

1:02:17

book, I knew there would be blowback or there could

1:02:19

be blowback. And those are those mistakes. I

1:02:21

think, you know, I'm proud of what I

1:02:23

did. I felt I feel like it was

1:02:26

the right thing to do. I stand

1:02:29

by everything in the book. None

1:02:31

of it's been, you know, every

1:02:33

word of it is true. So, you know, I feel

1:02:36

good about it at the end of the

1:02:38

day. And look, exactly what you said to

1:02:40

your son there. I mean, my kids know

1:02:42

that. I mean, I've been called every possible

1:02:45

name, right? And I hope that

1:02:48

they know that, you

1:02:50

know, look, they've been called names at school, you

1:02:53

know, and just like every

1:02:55

kid is. And I

1:02:57

just hope they know that we

1:02:59

survive these things, we get past them.

1:03:03

And you just keep going. That's the

1:03:05

answer. Just just keep going. As

1:03:07

a journalist, what do you see happening in

1:03:09

media right now? You mentioned that

1:03:12

they weren't running stories about this. Now they are

1:03:14

like, how do you look at media from the

1:03:16

outside, but from the inside as

1:03:18

well? Oh, I think there's a lot

1:03:20

of really good developments in media. There's a lot of,

1:03:22

you know, people who are

1:03:24

acting outside of the prestige media. I

1:03:27

mean, I think, look, the prestige media

1:03:29

in America certainly is falling apart in a

1:03:31

lot of ways. You know, some of the

1:03:34

media outlets are, you know, still very well

1:03:36

funded. And they seem to be, you know,

1:03:38

they seem to be doing fine in a

1:03:40

certain sense. But, but they're

1:03:42

there. It's weird. It's like, you

1:03:44

know, they have this sort of

1:03:46

Potemkin village they've set up that

1:03:48

doesn't actually reflect what's

1:03:50

going on in the country, because they decided that

1:03:52

their mission wasn't going to be about truth, it

1:03:54

was going to be about something else. You

1:03:57

know, so I think in general, they've, they've a lot

1:03:59

of them have become sort of a PR

1:04:01

project rather than a truth

1:04:04

organ. And

1:04:06

that's dangerous. And

1:04:09

I think that their prestige has been damaged

1:04:12

by it and certainly their reliability

1:04:14

that trust people have in them. And

1:04:16

I think that's in many ways

1:04:18

a good thing. They don't deserve people's

1:04:21

trust for all the things they didn't report

1:04:23

or cover it up or whatever. Now

1:04:26

that said, we're seeing a lot of

1:04:28

conspiracy theory and that's bad. And

1:04:32

I think that when you can't trust

1:04:34

the mainstream media to report on stories

1:04:36

actively, accurately rather,

1:04:39

you end up with a lot of

1:04:41

conspiracy theory. Conspiracy theory is very bad development.

1:04:44

It leads people into all kinds of

1:04:46

bad places, including scapegoating. And

1:04:51

so I wish that they would get back to the

1:04:53

project of reporting news and

1:04:56

reporting things accurately wherever the chips may fall.

1:04:58

I don't see that happening for most of the

1:05:02

mainstream media. Do you think it'll take

1:05:04

sort of a crisis for that to come back? It's

1:05:06

a good question. I don't know. I don't know.

1:05:09

Some of them may just need to fail. Do you

1:05:11

think it'll take a crisis for us to

1:05:13

sort of tackle collectively

1:05:15

the mental health culture? But

1:05:18

I think we can fix tomorrow. It's

1:05:20

very easy. It doesn't require any money. Do you

1:05:22

think we will fix it? Well, I don't

1:05:24

know. I hope some people will. I

1:05:27

hope that I think that it depends

1:05:29

how many people are aware that over-treating

1:05:32

kids with therapy and feelings focus

1:05:34

and rumination is all very negative

1:05:37

and that therapists have really

1:05:39

bad incentives here when

1:05:41

they're treating the well. It's

1:05:44

not their fault. Most of them are well-meaning,

1:05:46

but they set themselves up as the

1:05:49

overseers of a child's life and

1:05:51

the very facts of their existence in the

1:05:53

child's life introduces risk. So

1:05:56

unless they're necessary, we got to get them

1:05:58

out of kids' lives. We need

1:06:00

to go back to focusing kids outward on things

1:06:02

they're doing in the world, things that make you

1:06:04

feel good, actually, like

1:06:06

community, you know, like

1:06:10

efficacy, feeling capable, again,

1:06:14

in the world, not feeling like they

1:06:16

need to run to an adult to handle every problem.

1:06:19

So I think this is a very, very fixable

1:06:21

and I certainly hope it doesn't take

1:06:24

any money, it just requires subtraction. So

1:06:27

I really hope we get on this. What

1:06:30

can parents do, like, as they're listening to this,

1:06:32

if they're still listening, what small steps can they

1:06:34

take to sort of start to

1:06:36

go back to baseline, if you

1:06:38

will, or back to

1:06:41

building more resilient kids? That's probably a better

1:06:43

way to word that. I

1:06:46

think they need to, first of all, give their

1:06:48

kids chores. They need

1:06:50

to give their kids more independence and more

1:06:52

chores and more things to do

1:06:54

so that they feel that they matter in

1:06:56

the world, that the family, they are benefiting

1:06:58

the family. We expect you to, and

1:07:01

we're happy when you do, and we're proud of

1:07:03

you. Look what you just did for the family,

1:07:05

for someone besides you. And by the

1:07:07

way, it makes kids feel good. But that also means we

1:07:09

need to control our own anxiety. Let them

1:07:11

do things that are a little bit risky, like

1:07:14

sharp knives or cooking dinner or

1:07:16

whatever it is, get

1:07:18

them involved, get them walking, going

1:07:20

around the neighborhood, get them doing things

1:07:22

where they have to figure themselves out

1:07:25

a little bit and navigate

1:07:27

other people, like

1:07:29

strangers. So

1:07:31

all that stuff's really good, but we also need

1:07:33

to have frank conversations. You know what? Sitting

1:07:36

around and talking about your feelings all the time, don't worry

1:07:38

about your feelings all the time. Really,

1:07:40

if you have a problem, if you're

1:07:42

really sad, like when your son

1:07:45

called you, that's different. His feelings had

1:07:47

been hard. He didn't know what to do. And you

1:07:49

gave him great advice. But constantly

1:07:51

checking on their feelings when they don't, when

1:07:54

their feelings, there's no indication that there's

1:07:56

been any problem, which is what we're

1:07:58

doing now preventatively. That's a disaster. disaster.

1:08:01

And you know what? Telling a kid you're

1:08:03

fine, shake it off, or you'll live, or

1:08:05

you'll be fine. What that does is triage.

1:08:09

Right? The actual big problems that they

1:08:12

can't resolve on their own from the

1:08:14

ones that they're like, hey, I can,

1:08:16

I am fine. And

1:08:18

we need to at least give them a

1:08:20

shot at realizing that a certain amount of

1:08:22

teasing is something they can overcome. You

1:08:26

know, I remember, I don't know if she'd be mad at me

1:08:28

for sharing the story, but my best friend went through a hard time

1:08:30

in high school. And I remember her

1:08:33

mom, like her friend group,

1:08:35

totally cut her. And I remember this God.

1:08:37

We all remember that. I remember being cut by

1:08:40

friends in high school and it was so upsetting. You

1:08:42

know, your best friend all of a sudden, she's mad

1:08:44

at you and won't speak to you. And it's devastating

1:08:46

in high school. It's really, it hurts. And

1:08:49

I remember that a bunch of girls had decided they were

1:08:51

mad at her and her mother, who was an immigrant to

1:08:54

this country said, you

1:08:56

know what, there's a party and she didn't, my friend didn't

1:08:58

want to go to it. She was, you know, in high

1:09:00

school and she was afraid to go to the party. And

1:09:02

her mother said to her, you need to go to that

1:09:04

party and you need to wear red. And

1:09:08

I just kind of thought that encapsulated

1:09:11

a great message

1:09:13

for kids. Right?

1:09:17

Like that is the message that we should

1:09:19

be giving them. You're going to be fine.

1:09:21

You don't need to cower. You're going to

1:09:23

show up at that party and

1:09:25

you're not going to be embarrassed. And

1:09:28

at the end of the night, we'll have a laugh about how it all

1:09:30

went. But you're not going

1:09:32

to sit at home and we're not going to rush

1:09:34

you off to a therapist because girls, you know, made

1:09:37

you feel left out because they're going

1:09:39

to keep doing it. They're going to do it as a workplace. You got

1:09:41

to be able to deal with this. How

1:09:43

do we talk to our kids about the difference if we

1:09:45

start doing this at home, right? We start building

1:09:48

more agency, building more responsibility and

1:09:51

we're doing our best as parents.

1:09:54

How Do we talk to the kids who are going

1:09:56

to a school and getting maybe a different message about

1:09:58

these things? Where they are? maybe.? The encouraged to talk

1:10:00

about their feelings and they are sort of i

1:10:03

eat. Do you understand what I'm saying Like where

1:10:05

we have two different environments for the gets? How

1:10:07

do we have that conversation with them? Because

1:10:09

we don't control what happens in the school. Even if we

1:10:12

control what happens in our house. right? So

1:10:14

parents ask me that all the time.

1:10:17

They always say I don't want to undercut

1:10:19

the school. The. School is doing

1:10:21

this project and I feel I feel

1:10:23

uncomfortable criticizing into a school. I've

1:10:26

interviewed a lot of teachers. You know what? they've never

1:10:28

said to me. I. Really

1:10:30

don't want to undercut the messages at home.

1:10:34

So what I would say the parents is

1:10:36

feel free to tell kids what you think

1:10:38

about everything. including.

1:10:41

I had one mom tell me after she read

1:10:43

my book she was gonna have kids still have

1:10:45

the mental health survey and just fill it out

1:10:47

at random don't read at. Why?

1:10:51

He doesn't want our kids sitting there

1:10:53

hearing about the and for you know,

1:10:55

cutting choking all that burning all the

1:10:57

message you might choose to sell farm.

1:11:01

She. Was telling her to that's not good for you

1:11:03

and I know what's best. And. I think

1:11:05

parents have every right to say that to their

1:11:07

kids, and in some cases, given how much they've

1:11:09

been undermined by the schools. You.

1:11:12

Know with their with their

1:11:14

gender dysphoria Know that transgender

1:11:17

identification. Thing. And

1:11:19

the to actively deceiving birth the amount

1:11:21

they've been undermined I I, I tell

1:11:23

my kids. you know what? It

1:11:25

makes normal people sad to sit around and

1:11:28

think about their feelings. Don't pay attention. And

1:11:30

Essien. If you have to

1:11:32

sit through a be respectful, be polite. But.

1:11:34

I just once you know I I regarded as a

1:11:36

lot of nonsense. Literally.

1:11:39

Anything you could be doing would be better for

1:11:41

your mental health and sitting around and doing these

1:11:43

exercise Also I have to tell the kids mental

1:11:45

health is not something you work on. Something.

1:11:47

Happens while you're living a good life. So.

1:11:52

We don't talk about mental health. Okay

1:11:55

we talk about look good you beat it could be

1:11:57

doing in the world. What? You want?

1:11:59

go down? there and try, you

1:12:01

know, what friend

1:12:04

you want to make, what's the activity we should do?

1:12:07

Not, we don't sit around talking about mental health.

1:12:09

That's what happens when you're leading a good life.

1:12:12

I talked to a lot of teachers

1:12:14

and therapists before our interview.

1:12:18

And it seems like there's

1:12:20

like a silent majority who agree

1:12:22

with you. And yet we're

1:12:26

here. Why

1:12:28

are they silent? It's crazy, isn't it? I

1:12:31

have to tell you, it shocked me. The

1:12:34

response to the book has been

1:12:36

overwhelmingly positive. And I was expecting

1:12:38

tremendous backlash. But the my inbox

1:12:40

is filled with mental health professionals

1:12:42

who say I have been seeing

1:12:44

this for, you know, decades now,

1:12:46

I was hoping someone would write

1:12:48

this book. And look, that's what

1:12:51

journalists exist for. Right? Because

1:12:53

nobody wants to criticize their colleagues, or

1:12:55

what their whole profession is doing. They

1:12:58

don't generally want to do that. But

1:13:01

a journalist can interview researchers

1:13:03

and put the story together. And

1:13:05

they're just judged based on their journalism.

1:13:07

They're not, you know, then treated badly

1:13:09

by their colleagues. So yeah,

1:13:12

the response to the book has been

1:13:14

surprisingly and overwhelmingly positive, even even by

1:13:16

mental health professionals, I'm I'm happy to

1:13:18

say. That's confusing to me,

1:13:21

as an adult, though, who sends his kids

1:13:23

to school, if the vast majority

1:13:26

of teachers agree with us, and it takes

1:13:28

an outside journalist to change things or bring

1:13:30

attention to it, that there's

1:13:32

a problem there. And these people are

1:13:34

responsible for educating my children, right? And

1:13:37

yet they're feeling helpless. They're feeling like

1:13:39

they can't do anything on the inside.

1:13:41

They are helpless. Here's why. Because

1:13:45

the psych staffs are like the DEI staffs

1:13:47

of an organ of a corporation. That's what

1:13:49

the psych staff now is at the school.

1:13:51

They effectively run the schools. They

1:13:54

Pass judgment on everything. They Control

1:13:56

what what a teacher can assign.

1:14:00

What? What kind of cast a teacher can

1:14:02

assign and to watch child. There.

1:14:04

And effectively running the show. They've been put

1:14:06

in charge of the schools, Just.

1:14:08

Like on T I V D, I groups

1:14:11

have been put in charge of corporations are

1:14:13

effectively running and intimidating everyone. That's exactly what

1:14:15

the Steaks Deaths are doing. The.

1:14:18

Teachers who were there to teach are miserable. They.

1:14:20

Do not like this. These sites staff telling

1:14:22

them what they can assign and when. Or.

1:14:25

When a child needs in any time pass

1:14:27

because his mental health. Requires him to be

1:14:29

able to walk around the school in the middle

1:14:31

of class. Guess what? cancers? Will tell you that

1:14:33

these kids use those passes in the middle

1:14:35

of their least favorite class. What's in

1:14:38

any time passes? sorry. That's what

1:14:40

they sometimes call them. It's a mental health past

1:14:42

that allows you to walk, take a walk around

1:14:44

the school when you're feeling too much stress. And

1:14:47

surprising Lenny unsurprisingly. kids abuse I'm

1:14:49

right and play as any one

1:14:51

word, but the medical staff whoa

1:14:53

very often insist upon them. See.

1:14:56

See that that does. Heaters are

1:14:58

intimidated for good reason. Good good

1:15:00

school counselors who think their of

1:15:02

this this is you know not

1:15:05

what they signed on for. Could

1:15:07

see. What? Happens with these

1:15:09

kids. Like would say, everything continues. We've

1:15:11

probably seen or heard. you know the

1:15:13

graduates if their parents interview network but

1:15:16

that doesn't continue forever? Does it like

1:15:18

you don't have a forty year old

1:15:20

whose mothers calling their boss at work

1:15:22

like the is a reaches delaying sort

1:15:25

of becoming an adult is? Is that

1:15:27

what we're doing here where we sort

1:15:29

of preventing becoming an adult and you

1:15:31

have this learned helplessness. Are.

1:15:34

Preventing them from becoming adults. It's.

1:15:36

Worse. And here's why. These

1:15:38

a child who believes there unwell. In.

1:15:41

Incapable. Will. Not fill

1:15:43

up to supporting others. And supporting

1:15:45

others, being there for others is what

1:15:47

adulthood is. It saying that

1:15:49

adds to the world. I'm strong. You. Can

1:15:51

depend on me. To. Hold down

1:15:53

a job. I'm. Strong. I

1:15:56

can raise a family. i

1:15:58

can be responsible for other in

1:16:00

this society. That's what adulthood is. And

1:16:03

what we're doing is we're treating kids

1:16:06

like mental patients and because they feel

1:16:08

infirm, right, they don't feel up

1:16:10

to adulthood. So they don't want to get their

1:16:12

driver's license. Driving is scary. They don't

1:16:14

want to take the risks that a robust

1:16:17

teenager would take. They're

1:16:19

afraid of them. And we need

1:16:21

to go back. We need to undo this and we need to

1:16:23

show them they can. We have high

1:16:25

expectations for them and they should. They

1:16:28

should absolutely take on the next

1:16:30

generation, the mantle of all the responsibility for

1:16:32

all the hard work in front of us

1:16:34

as a society. We're counting

1:16:36

on them. And we are. We're depending on

1:16:38

them, whether we like it or not. So

1:16:41

we really should tell them, hey, we got a lot

1:16:43

of challenges. Let's get to work. Let's

1:16:45

see what we can do, what

1:16:47

you'll be able to do to help

1:16:49

us going forward as a civilization, as

1:16:52

a society, as a community. I

1:16:54

love that optimistic note to the ending.

1:16:57

And final question, we normally

1:16:59

ask what is success for you, but I want to ask

1:17:01

you a slightly different version of this, which is what

1:17:04

is being a successful parent

1:17:06

mean? What is a successful

1:17:08

parent? A successful parent is

1:17:10

someone who's raised a good child

1:17:12

to adulthood, to good adulthood. Someone

1:17:15

who has raised a productive citizen who,

1:17:17

by the way, has your values, passing

1:17:20

on your values to your kid. If they

1:17:22

are a strong person with your values,

1:17:25

you've done a great job, which basically

1:17:27

means do they value work?

1:17:29

Are they reliable? Do they

1:17:31

show up for others? Do they

1:17:34

want to, and I think they should

1:17:36

want to, form a family? Our society

1:17:38

depends on it and we should

1:17:40

inculcate that in kids. So

1:17:43

all these things, whether they want to

1:17:45

be there for others, be

1:17:47

strong for others and be reliable

1:17:49

to others. Build community,

1:17:52

build family, build all those things

1:17:54

that our society is depending on. No, that doesn't

1:17:56

mean that every single person needs to get married.

1:18:00

They may choose not to and that's fine.

1:18:02

But in the main, we want

1:18:04

people to want those things. We

1:18:06

want people to want to be someone others can

1:18:09

rely on in a permanent

1:18:11

and serious way. No, I he's been he's

1:18:13

worked with me. He's been my partner for

1:18:15

in this job for 20 years. We want

1:18:17

kids to feel like they can do that.

1:18:19

And if they have raised a

1:18:21

citizen who can do that, who does that,

1:18:24

who is relied upon, gosh, that parents done a

1:18:27

great job. And those are the people those are

1:18:29

in my book. Those are the only parenting experts,

1:18:31

the ones who've actually done a good job of it. It's

1:18:38

a beautiful way to end this provocative

1:18:40

conversation. Thank you so much. Thank

1:18:43

you. Good luck with everything, Shane. Thanks

1:18:47

for listening and learning with

1:18:49

us. For a complete list

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and more, go to F.S.

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1:18:57

Google the Knowledge Project. Recently,

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I've started to record my reflections

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and thoughts about the interview after

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