18:00

grief counselor or anything

18:02

like that, none of that was

18:04

part of my process. A

18:06

lot of it was church-based, being

18:08

a growing up member of the

18:10

LDS Church. That was certainly something

18:13

that was contributing

18:16

to what I was believing at the

18:18

time and what I was believing

18:21

what future held as far as

18:23

reconnection to my father in the

18:25

next life and being able

18:27

to believe that he

18:30

was overlooking me throughout my

18:32

life now. But as far

18:34

as having a grief, sessions,

18:37

being able to go through a regiment

18:39

or being able to understand

18:41

and comprehend that at the age of eight was

18:44

not something that... I think it was more, when

18:46

you talked about it, it was more like just

18:48

not knowing how to express your pain. And

18:51

you were saying like that being angry or lashing

18:53

out or, you know, walking past

18:55

somebody and giving them a shove. Yeah,

18:57

but I mean, but that to me was

19:00

just like, what do you do when you

19:02

hurt? Like it has to go somewhere. That's

19:06

exactly right. Some of the angry

19:08

felt like it might seem like your mom,

19:10

you called yourself a brat, but

19:13

really it's probably trauma. Oh,

19:15

for sure. One of

19:17

the biggest problems with us

19:20

dealing with childhood trauma is we,

19:22

in the past and hopefully not

19:24

as much today, but maybe too

19:26

much, just look at the outside

19:28

behavior of a child or adolescent. And

19:32

we might call it acting out,

19:34

you know, being angry, skipping school,

19:36

fighting, being withdrawn, those

19:38

sorts of things, which are

19:40

all very much trauma responses. You have

19:43

to understand childhood development. So just like

19:45

our physical bodies grow up, our brains

19:47

and minds grow up too. And it's

19:50

fairly predictable. Not until

19:52

we're in to the adolescent time,

19:54

do we really have the beginnings

19:56

of the capacity to see things

19:58

truly from another person. And

32:00

it's a great desire, but

32:02

it's also important to know that you said

32:04

it perfectly, Dave, your own

32:06

timeline. You have to operate

32:09

on it. How old were you, do you think,

32:11

when you truly felt like you could forgive? I'd

32:18

say it's probably when I actually

32:22

met Mike in person.

32:27

It was because my brother, who

32:29

was 19 at the

32:31

time, and he wanted to

32:34

go meet Mike, the

32:37

guy that took my father's life. And

32:41

I had the example of my aunts

32:45

and my grandparents, but

32:47

it was not

32:50

until my younger brother really

32:53

taught me and

32:59

going with him to the prison. Just

33:02

through that experience, I think that kind

33:05

of came to fruition. It

33:08

was real. It's one thing to just kind of say you

33:10

forgive somebody, but not until you can be in the

33:14

same room with them and put your

33:16

arm around them and truly

33:18

forgive. And that was very,

33:20

I can tell, like a special personal

33:23

experience for you and

33:25

your own timeline. That's your own

33:27

process. Maybe your aunts and other

33:29

people, your grandparents had their

33:31

own process. So

33:34

it's wonderful that they set that example, but

33:36

it sounds like you being there with your

33:39

brother was a very necessary

33:41

part of your process. Exactly.

33:44

Do you remember what you told me about that, though?

33:48

You felt like you were supposed to do that as the big brother.

33:51

So he was still beating

33:53

himself up. I

33:57

feel for you. I feel a lot of that.

36:00

It was stunted because it ended too soon,

36:03

but how can I bring that influence that

36:05

he brought into the world still into my

36:07

life? And that may be unique

36:10

to each person, how they do that. Sharing

36:12

memories is definitely part of it. Writing

36:15

them down is very therapeutic, verbally

36:17

sharing them with loved ones, but

36:20

also just feeling that what impact

36:22

or influence did my father have

36:25

on me, on my mom, on my siblings?

36:27

And can we see that as something that didn't leave

36:30

when his body left? So I

36:32

know that's a little bit out there, but

36:34

it's, I think a healthy

36:37

part of kind of taking the

36:39

person with us in life. That's

36:41

great. There's an interesting phenomenon

36:43

going on right now in psychology, I

36:45

like to criticize psychology sometimes. And

36:48

one of the things that's going on is this idea

36:50

of celebration of life. Nobody can

36:52

have a sad funeral anymore. We're all listening

36:54

to James Brown at the funeral

36:56

and talking about all the good times,

36:58

which is fine, actually, but actually

37:00

going through the feelings is really, really

37:02

important. And oftentimes people

37:04

who don't allow themselves to process

37:07

the sadness, never shift out of it.

37:11

And so, you would be the one who

37:13

would know how much of that you

37:15

feel like you've been able to process in your life.

37:18

But once you've processed it and found

37:20

a different perspective, I think that's where

37:22

the shift comes. So what would

37:24

you do in the community? Because I think that's the

37:26

other thing. I don't think we're that great about talking

37:28

about grief. That's just my two cents. No,

37:31

we're not. Grief is a really hard one.

37:33

That's why everybody's saying, celebration of life, yay.

37:35

Right. It's contagious. I don't

37:37

want to get sadness. Right, exactly.

37:39

But I think what can people do

37:41

who aren't, maybe they're not in the

37:44

nuclear family or they're in the neighborhood

37:46

or whatever. Like, how do you

37:48

help people? Well, that's

37:50

a great question because one of the things

37:52

that families tell me a lot is the

37:54

first couple of weeks after a big tragedy

37:56

or a loss like this, everybody's

37:59

coming around. around and making your food

38:01

and all this stuff. First of all, food's

38:03

probably not the most important thing, but that is how

38:06

we comfort each other and nourish each

38:08

other. The food is delicious. Yeah, the food

38:10

is great. But if

38:13

you're a community member or a neighbor, whoever

38:16

you may be in a family's life who's

38:18

had a tragedy, check

38:20

back regularly. Do things

38:23

without asking, what do you need? Not a great question.

38:25

How about you see something that you could do for them

38:27

and just say, I'd really like to help

38:30

Mrs. Smith with her yard work. I'd

38:32

really like to help babysit the kids. Could

38:35

I do that? And don't make it

38:38

offer for one week. Make

38:40

it something that is a regular

38:42

thing over time, offering specific types

38:44

of help. How could you help a kid,

38:46

an eight year old kid? Would you

38:48

say, do you want to go play baseball, have a catch?

38:51

Well, do you remember any people

38:53

that stepped up and- Absolutely. What are

38:55

some things they did? Took me fishing.

38:58

There you go. Who did that? That

39:00

was Kelly Shepherd. Took you fishing?

39:02

Yep. I remember him taking me to basketball games,

39:06

high school basketball game. Yeah,

39:09

just being there, feeling

39:11

that void. I had

39:13

a conversation with a teenage girl today

39:16

and she was talking about how she

39:19

had lost her father, more in

39:21

a natural way, but at a young age. And

39:24

she talked about how there were two

39:26

people in her LDS ward that took

39:29

turns helping do the things her

39:32

dad might've done. They did it with permission with

39:34

the mom, but think about a daddy daughter dance

39:36

at school and doing

39:39

things like going to the ball games or fishing.

39:42

Those are very, very meaningful, helpful ways.

39:44

Obviously you don't want to overstep bounds

39:47

as a friend, but

39:49

that would be a specific thing you

39:51

could offer. Most people don't really

39:53

like to accept help. I would

39:56

even have to throw myself in that category.

39:58

So when you say to a mom, whose husband

40:00

is gone, hey, what can I do for you?

40:02

She might say, oh, we're fine. But

40:05

we know she's not fine and the kids aren't

40:07

fine. And so offering specific help

40:09

like, hey, would it be okay to take

40:11

your son fishing? Or would it be

40:14

all right to come along and watch his ball game?

40:16

You know, those kinds of things are

40:18

very helpful. Tutoring in school, that

40:21

kind of stuff is very helpful. In

40:23

addition to, of course, I think kids need professional

40:26

counseling and support. Anything

40:29

else you want to say? Yeah, I do have

40:31

a question for you. So on

40:33

the idea of

40:36

intergenerational trauma, I'm

40:38

just thinking about my own kids. Certainly

40:40

they've not gone through the same trauma, but

40:44

it seems like they have

40:46

the same tendency as far

40:48

as empathy. How

40:51

much of that is in your DNA? Like

40:54

how empathetic you are? Yeah, that's

40:57

a great question. I'm not sure I a

40:59

hundred percent know the answer to because I

41:01

don't think anyone does, but we do know

41:03

that some of that is DNA and heritability.

41:05

A lot of it's what we teach and what

41:08

we model to kids. And

41:10

some of it's just their personality kind of meeting

41:13

the challenges of life. Let's

41:15

take trauma out of a family dynamic for

41:17

a second. Children have

41:19

to learn how to express

41:21

themselves, recognize social cues

41:24

and emotional cues and other people and

41:26

in themselves, working on children's

41:28

emotional vocabulary and feeling like I

41:30

can talk about my feelings as

41:32

a safe place. And you know

41:34

what? As a parent, if you kind of feel like you didn't do

41:36

a great job when they were little, you can

41:39

keep doing a great job now in

41:41

talking about those things. I'm a big believer in

41:43

just calling a spade a spade, talk

41:45

with your kids, anybody who's listening and

41:48

let them know it's important to talk about

41:50

our thoughts, our feelings, that it's

41:52

safe to express themselves. I

41:55

always encourage parents to tell, especially their

41:57

teenagers, I don't have to

41:59

agree with everything. for your feelings to be valid. You

42:01

can have your very own thoughts and feelings. Personalities,

42:04

we have to factor that in. Boys are

42:06

harder than girls on this typically, just because

42:08

of society, I think, and the way we

42:11

raise boys and girls differently. But

42:13

it's never too late. Kids are pretty resilient.

42:16

You know, it's funny, I grew up with a dad

42:18

that I don't remember talking about thoughts and feelings, but

42:20

he's 80 now. And

42:22

oftentimes we talk about thoughts and feelings.

42:25

And so it's never too late to make those

42:27

connections, I think, with your kids and

42:30

model to them what you'd like them

42:32

to be like, or skills you'd

42:35

like them to have, empathy and the like.

42:38

And people express empathy differently.

42:40

Some people it's verbal. We

42:42

live in a verbal society where it's like, I love

42:45

you, or I know how you feel. We say those

42:47

kinds of things. I'm in the talking business, right? But

42:50

a lot of times people show empathy through

42:52

deeds and actions. And

42:54

it's okay to sort

42:56

of support your kids and comment

42:58

on that and let them know, hey,

43:00

I thought what you did was great. That was

43:02

a really kind, supportive thing for you to do.

43:05

And that's okay too. We can all be different

43:07

in how we show empathy. I'll

43:11

tell you one of the greatest things my dad

43:13

ever did for me was to tell

43:16

me where he thought he failed, me

43:19

and my siblings. And

43:21

why, what he went through, what he

43:23

didn't know, what he wished he'd

43:25

done differently. And it just

43:27

helped me not blame myself anymore. Because

43:30

I do think that's a thing that you

43:32

do when you're, like I caused

43:34

this. And he just said, it

43:36

wasn't your fault. You didn't deserve this. And yeah,

43:39

and at first he didn't tell me, he

43:41

told my aunt, but

43:43

I overheard it. And I was like, that's as good as it's

43:45

gonna get and I'll take it. But

43:48

we have talked about it more and more.

43:51

As he's aged, I'm not sure it's

43:53

like super easy for him sometimes. But

43:55

yeah, I would say that I've done it with my kids

43:57

when I feel like I... maybe

44:00

you wished I could have a do over. But

44:02

yeah, I think just saying like, oh man,

44:06

I just gonna tell you what was happening here.

44:09

And you might not get it now because you don't lose your

44:11

dad when you were 13, but this

44:14

is what was happening. And it just made

44:16

me not blame myself anymore. Like

44:18

I just was relieved of that pressure. And

44:21

it was really helpful. And

44:23

now he is doing yard work at

44:26

my house as an act of love. So. There

44:28

you go. I think that's an

44:30

important conversation to have with. Yeah, I do.

44:32

If you can have it, I think it's also important. There

44:34

was a time when I was

44:36

okay with not having it. You

44:39

know what I mean? Like I think you have to be

44:41

wherever you need to be.

44:43

Yeah. Thanks

44:47

for doing this. No, I'm okay. Thank

44:51

you. Thank you both. Well,

44:53

it's my pleasure. I appreciate everyone allowing

44:56

me to be here today. That's a

44:58

special experience. I'm glad I was here. My

45:04

sincere thanks to Dave and Amy Rasmussen and to

45:06

Dr. Matt Woolley. I learned so much and I

45:08

hope you did too. What I really hope you

45:10

take away from this is even if you don't

45:12

know what to say and you don't know how

45:15

to address someone's pain, it's always

45:17

better to acknowledge it and try to address

45:19

it than to ignore it. To

45:21

learn more about how you can

45:23

be better prepared to help people

45:26

in your life deal with the

45:28

impacts of childhood trauma, you can

45:30

visit www.samhsa.gov backslash child-trauma. Thank

45:35

you for listening. Hi,

45:38

I'm Aaron and I'm part of the team here on The Letter.

45:41

If you like the show, please take a minute

45:43

to rate and review us. I know every podcast

45:45

asks that, but it really does help make the

45:47

show more visible to others who may enjoy it

45:49

too. Thanks. This

45:52

bonus episode of The Letter Season Two

45:54

Ripple Effect was hosted by Amy Donaldson,

45:56

produced and edited by Dave Cauley. Our

45:59

main theme was... composed by Allison

46:01

Layton Brown. With Lemonata Media,

46:03

executive producers, Jessica Cordova-Kramer and

46:05

Stephanie Whittles-Wax. For Workhouse Media,

46:07

executive producer, Paul Anderson. And

46:09

for KSL Podcasts, executive producer,

46:11

Cheryl Worsley. Follow us

46:14

on social media at The Letter

46:16

Podcast, or for even more extras,

46:18

check out our website, theletterpodcast.com. The

46:20

Letter is a production of KSL Podcasts

46:22

and Lemonata Media in association with Workhouse

46:25

Media. Hey

46:30

everyone, it's David Duchovny. Do

46:37

you ever feel like a failure? Trust

46:39

me, I get it. Hell, I've

46:41

spent my whole life almost feeling

46:43

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46:45

appropriate though, because on Fail Better, my

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new podcast with Lemonata Media, exploring

46:50

the world of failure, how it holds

46:52

us back, propels us forward, and

46:55

ultimately shapes our lives, is the whole

46:57

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46:59

I'll chat with artists, athletes, actors,

47:01

and experts about how

47:03

our perceived failures have actually been our

47:06

biggest catalysts for growth, revelation,

47:09

and even healing. Through

47:11

these conversations, I hope we can learn how

47:13

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47:16

fail better together. Fail

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Better is out now. You can listen

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