0:02

Lemon Outta. A

0:07

warning about content. This. Episode

0:09

contains discussions of sexual assault.

0:12

Please. Take care when listening. For

0:18

most people, the squawk of a

0:21

school intercom system live somewhere in

0:23

the abandoned hallways of our memories.

0:25

a sound that once alerted students

0:27

to the day's big events. It

0:30

important issues fades slowly to become

0:32

a small part in a distant

0:34

symphony or childhood noise. But.

0:40

For Lisa Rasmussen Obe far. That.

0:43

Sound never faded. And. Even

0:45

decades removed from those grade school hallways.

0:48

It drags her back to a lot. So

0:50

profound. It's. Just part of who

0:52

she is. That.

0:55

Noise or anything like, it instantly

0:57

summons fear. Whenever I would hear

0:59

like that beep and then an

1:02

announcement. I would get nervous when

1:04

Lisa here that sound. She's no

1:06

longer a forty seven year old

1:09

woman. She falls to time back

1:11

to Friday, March Fifth, Nineteen Eighty

1:13

Two. When she was a

1:16

carefree five year old sitting in her kindergarten class.

1:18

The. Most exciting thing about that morning had

1:21

been a storm that brought new snow.

1:24

And then she heard that intercom beat

1:26

and the voice of someone asking her

1:28

to come down to the principal's office.

1:31

Lisa walked on the long haul to

1:33

the office where her neighbors did waiting

1:35

in. Someone told her she was going

1:38

home early, know told her why and

1:40

she doesn't remember asking any questions. I

1:42

had never been checked out of school

1:45

before. She walked outside where her eight

1:47

year old brother Dave was standing next

1:49

to their neighbor's car holding his arm

1:51

and a strange position. and I remember.

1:54

Seeing him outside and friend the school

1:56

and he was at folding his arms.

1:59

It looked like he was holding it. Weird. I

2:01

thought. oh, he probably broke his arm and we're

2:03

going home. She compliant. Li climbed

2:05

into the back seat of the car. She doesn't

2:07

remember how she felt or what she. Just

2:10

what she saw as they drove into. Their. Neighborhood.

2:13

Remember pulling up onto our street and I

2:15

saw a lot of cars outside letter? oh

2:18

oh no I am with cars are there?

2:21

And then I remember walking up the

2:23

sidewalk and in the front door. and

2:25

then I don't remember. Anything.

2:29

She. Knows what happened after that. Season.

2:32

Can't remember it. Everything.

2:35

That happened in the weeks after her father,

2:37

Jordan Rasmussen was murdered at Log Even. Restaurants

2:39

are memory she inherited from other

2:42

people. All she knows for

2:44

her. Since. Is how it

2:46

all felt. The confusion. The

2:49

sadness, the fear, And

2:52

she knows that sound. It's never

2:54

left her. One.

2:56

Time I was in high

2:58

school and. The beep. And

3:01

my name but called the the office and

3:03

I thought oh no what's happened. She

3:07

thoughts. From mind raced

3:09

was at her mom, her little

3:11

brother grandpa us. She rushed through

3:13

the halls of a school. So.

3:17

I went to. The office and second yeah hey

3:19

my name was is called over the intercom and

3:22

she said oh that must have been a mistake.

3:25

But it wasn't a mistake

3:28

because this experience is always

3:30

wondering if or when something

3:32

terrible might happen again. Wasn't

3:35

hers alone? on. That. Day

3:37

after Lisa left the house, her

3:39

mother's fear hi just. Their

3:41

ordinary morning. My

3:43

friends pick me up and shortly

3:45

after my mom heard sirens and

3:47

this is before cellphones so my

3:49

mom got nervous of she called.

3:52

My school to see if I had made it

3:54

okay. At the answer quest. The

3:57

ancestors called the sit down and made sure

3:59

she was six. Neither of

4:01

them knew how their fear terrorize

4:03

the other. My mom

4:05

didn't know that I had anxieties about the inner.

4:09

And so said you didn't know she had. I

4:11

didn't know the see was having anxiety they see

4:14

heard sirens after I left the house. Even

4:17

years later when seen her husband left her children

4:19

at home for cruise ship they case him with

4:21

friends. That sound stuff.

4:25

In the seer the came with it. whenever.

4:27

I would hear that bow on the cruise ship.

4:31

I have get anxiety class or

4:33

something. Oh their candidate outset. they're

4:36

going to call me and so

4:38

he did something happen.com. The

4:41

more she built a life that she

4:43

loved, the more serious losing. I'm

4:47

pretty much affected by everyday. Just.

4:52

Contemplating the pain of losing any when

4:54

she loves. Strangles. Her voice.

4:58

And she buries or season or hands.

5:03

Ghosts and so forth. Just.

5:09

To. My anxiety didn't manifest itself.

5:12

And tell I was married. Not

5:15

that had anything to do with my husband at all,

5:17

but I think it's because I cared and. But

5:19

for someone so much that I didn't

5:21

want. Him. To be

5:23

taken away from me. And.

5:27

With every child that important, my

5:29

anxiety is just increased. Much more

5:31

and more. It's. I

5:35

know that the anxiety is is

5:37

because of that tragedy. Least

5:44

it wasn't the only child left with remnants of a

5:46

time I see. can barely remember when

5:48

michael moore killed jordan rasmussen and

5:50

buddy boost used five children to

5:52

grow up with those to wrestle

5:54

with emotion sigrid too young to

5:57

understand the inherited a lot in

5:59

their fathers eye color, smiles,

6:02

mannerisms. And there is

6:04

no doubt they inherited the pain of their

6:06

violent deaths. But something

6:08

else happened after those murders. The

6:10

mothers of those children made choices

6:13

about whether to forgive the man who murdered

6:15

their fathers, leaving

6:17

the children to figure out, if it's

6:20

possible to inherit trauma, is

6:22

it also possible to inherit forgiveness? Or

6:25

is that something each person just have to struggle with

6:27

for themselves? The

6:30

answer to that question doesn't just matter

6:32

to them. Remember, the

6:34

Rasmussen's enlisted former prosecutor John T.

6:36

Nielsen to help Michael get another

6:39

chance at parole. And

6:41

his efforts would bring them all

6:43

together again. And this time,

6:45

the children of the men Michael killed

6:48

would be old enough to speak for themselves. From

6:55

KSL Podcast, I'm Amy Donaldson. And

6:58

this is the letter, season two, ripple

7:00

effect. Episode

7:02

seven, inheritance. On

7:23

a summer night, Douglas Wagg Jr. lay

7:25

motionless across a strip of railroad tracks before

7:28

being struck by an oncoming train. I'm

7:31

investigative journalist, Delia D'Ambra. And my

7:33

investigation into exactly how Doug Guide

7:36

took me into the depths of a bizarre mystery.

7:39

It was really hard to understand

7:41

what was fact and what wasn't.

7:44

A mystery that has led me from one

7:46

suspicious death to another. Listen

7:48

to Counterclock Now, wherever you listen to it. It's

7:51

a fabulous list of the podcasts.

7:53

Hi, it's Stanley Tucci. What

7:56

would you do if you were no longer welcome in your

7:58

own country? audio series which

8:01

tells the true story of an Italian

8:03

Jewish family split apart by Mussolini's racial

8:05

laws. Can love survive fascism? When the

8:08

time comes, do you stay or flee?

8:10

I love this story and I think

8:12

you will too. Pack One

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Bag features Stanley Tucci and drops

8:17

on June 5th. No follow Pack

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One Bag wherever you get your

8:21

podcasts. Audio series which tells the true story of

8:24

an Italian Jewish family split apart by

8:26

Mussolini's racial laws. Jordan Rasmussen's murder left

8:28

three children to grow up wondering what life

8:30

would be like if he'd lived. They

8:33

suffered the same loss, listened to

8:35

the same stories about what a great guy he

8:37

was, and they took comfort in

8:39

the same faith. They all

8:41

watched as their mother and extended family chose

8:43

to forgive their father's killer and

8:46

extolled the healing power of forgiveness. But

8:50

their struggles with grief were not the same, in

8:53

part because what they lost was not the same.

8:57

For example, Lisa and her big

8:59

brother Dave both remember leaving school

9:01

early the day their father was

9:03

murdered. They both remember how odd

9:06

it felt and the strangeness

9:08

of all the cars parked outside their house.

9:11

Once they walked inside though, Lisa's

9:13

memories end. But

9:15

for eight-year-old Dave, the oldest of

9:17

Jordan's children, not only

9:19

can he still see pictures of that day in

9:21

his mind, he can still

9:24

feel the sharpness of every emotion that

9:26

frames him. I

9:29

remember going in and there were a lot

9:31

of people in there. I could tell that

9:34

my mother was upset and

9:37

my dad wasn't there. And

9:43

I knew seeing

9:45

my mother's face that something

9:48

was up. And

9:50

I recall her saying, hm,

10:00

that our dad wasn't coming home and

10:06

that he had died. Some

10:11

details have slipped beyond his grasp. Dave

10:14

doesn't remember his mother leading him and Lisa

10:16

into his bedroom or that she

10:18

sat between them on the wood frame bed his father

10:20

built for him, but she told

10:22

them he was gone. In

10:25

fact, answering questions about his

10:27

father's death is like trying

10:29

to assemble a puzzle that's never

10:32

really finished. Because

10:41

he has so few memories of his father,

10:43

he hoards all of them. Even

10:46

the silliest moments have become significant,

10:48

sentimental. At the time, he

10:50

wanted to be a Max bike for his birthday and

10:53

his dad delivered some atrocity with

10:55

a banana seed and oversized handlebars.

11:14

Scarcity has made him more grateful for

11:16

every shred of memory that remains. And

11:19

it's made even the most ordinary moments with

11:22

his dad. Magical. I

11:25

remember one time being

11:27

in the backyard of our new

11:30

home that they had built and we'd moved

11:32

into and walking around the

11:34

yard. I remember some

11:38

conversation about a hot air balloon and one day he

11:41

was going to take me and

11:44

I remember him talking about going

11:47

to Disney World. I

11:50

remember him just kind of feeling me with all these

11:52

wonderful opportunities

11:57

and dreams and It

12:01

just kind of gave me a lot of

12:03

excitement as a little kid. Dave

12:06

never got the chance to experience any of those things

12:09

with his dad, but he does have

12:11

tangible evidence of his dad's devotion. It's

12:14

that bed his father built for him. When

12:17

he yearns for a physical connection, he

12:20

can reach out and touch something infused

12:22

with his father's love. And then

12:24

I have that to this day, something that he had

12:26

made with his own hands. So there's

12:29

certainly a connection to

12:31

him through that physicality

12:33

that still remains. Dave

12:36

says they all grew up hearing the same

12:38

thing from their extended family, that

12:40

Jordan was the best dad. The

12:43

stories they were trying to convey to me that he

12:45

was a great man and how much he loved

12:48

his kids and would do anything for him. But

12:51

for Dave, these stories have also

12:53

created a conflict, a

12:55

resentment that he didn't understand.

12:59

What good is having the best dad if

13:01

you don't get to grow up with him? Hearing

13:04

the stories of aunts and uncles talking about how amazing

13:06

he was, in some ways

13:09

I guess I feel cheated. It

13:11

sometimes obviously didn't feel fair. So

13:15

then I think, okay, well, those experiences I

13:17

do have, even though I may have blocked

13:19

them out, they're experiences

13:21

that my siblings didn't have

13:24

at all. Because

13:27

Lisa was only five when Jordan died, her

13:29

memories of him are faint shadows. It's

13:31

a real thing. She

13:33

can't remember that she worried about giving him a

13:35

cold when she looked into his casket at his funeral

13:38

or that she insisted her dad would be

13:40

home for Christmas. But

13:43

she knows these stories because her family

13:45

told her. They gave

13:47

her the pieces to make something tangible. He's

13:50

someone she loves, not just a face

13:52

and a photograph. That

14:00

he was kind. And

14:03

a peacemaker. He belongs

14:05

to her. Because Of Them.

14:08

Almost every time that we would get

14:10

together and still do. One

14:13

of the ants. Will make it a point

14:15

to talk to me and coordinate this with each

14:17

other like okay, I'm in every one that talks

14:19

at least at a split. They were

14:22

always tell me how much he loved

14:24

me and put what a great man

14:26

he was and so yeah I get

14:28

it was act. Unless you

14:30

specifically like they couldn't tell you

14:32

what a saber ice cream flavor.

14:37

Like. Your sister, Jordan's youngest child

14:39

Chad. Clung to every word of

14:41

those stories. He. Stock the pages a

14:44

photo albums looking for pieces of himself. In

14:46

images of his dad. His.

14:48

Pain comes from what he never had the

14:50

chance to experience. I. Don't.

14:53

Have any of my own memories.

14:55

It's all second hand in there.

14:58

That was probably what has been

15:00

the hardest. Tad

15:02

is the sleep. Of or sixteen months old we

15:04

met in the very first moments in history. He.

15:07

Was the to. Jordan spent his last

15:09

night allies cuddling and that cold car.

15:12

After he lost in south at a house. Cat.

15:15

Nuisance. To realize. That. She.

15:18

Can remember the sea of of his father's arms

15:20

around him. The sound of his last.

15:22

Or the scent of his jacket as he lead his

15:24

head. On his shoulder. It's.

15:27

Real for him because his mother told him

15:29

about it, she wrote it down and she

15:31

even put it in his baby book. Because.

15:34

He had no memory of the trauma they all

15:36

shared. He became a symbol

15:38

of healing for as extended family. In

15:41

a way, his childish oblivion was

15:43

a reprieve. From the Greece. Which

15:47

I think probably for me how

15:50

people felt most sorry because I

15:52

never knew and but also like

15:54

an innocent joy and I was

15:57

innocent of from this harm and

15:59

so. I think I I

16:01

gave a lotta hope to lot of if

16:03

I know that that's what my mom the

16:05

said that because I was naive to what

16:07

was going on, I didn't have the sorrow

16:09

way down and so I was like a

16:11

little bit of hope. That

16:13

map remembering the time I'm losing his

16:16

father Does it means had. A

16:18

steep the tormented priests. She's.

16:20

Lived with losing something so essential that

16:23

no matter what he has. Sea.

16:25

Silver yearning. Avoid. That.

16:28

Even the best people, the strongest religious

16:30

police, and the most loving tend to

16:32

family. Just can't sell.

16:35

You know it's been the hardest thing that

16:37

I've had to deal with because of the

16:40

unknown. You know you're You're a kid and

16:42

new. Wish that you know as you're going

16:44

to your own developmental stages. You know? I

16:46

had an incredible stepfather that is like a

16:48

real father to me. Every

16:51

much as what a father

16:53

should be, but you still

16:55

have this like desire to

16:57

know what your biological father

16:59

was. Cats

17:02

challenge was envisioning who he could

17:04

become. Without. Knowing the man.

17:06

See how to emulate. And

17:08

it seems a cruel irony. That

17:11

in his last moments allies. Dwindle,

17:13

Tad The one thing his son has

17:16

long for all his life. Just

17:18

a few minutes at his dad. I

17:21

wanted going to have a father son

17:23

talk in learn what his likes or

17:25

his interests were and but is mostly

17:27

that that that I wanted to be

17:29

able to spend time with him. And.

17:33

Well, it feels like Jordan is more of an

17:35

idea than a braille person. He. Said

17:37

the picture is sammy painted of his Dad has

17:39

helped and strive to be a better man. I'm

17:42

grateful that my family did. That.

17:47

The did share all the good. Because.

17:51

It did like said that standard of

17:54

how and one been. And

17:57

then. Something.

18:00

aim for. Chad

18:04

never got to stand in the backyard with his dad and

18:06

dream about the future, at least not

18:08

in the way his older brother Dave did. But

18:11

he does have his own version of that father-son

18:13

moment. There was one particular

18:16

night that, in fact,

18:18

I was at my aunt Diane's house and me and

18:21

my cousin Mitch were sleeping outside.

18:25

And I remember he fell asleep

18:27

and I'm still sitting there

18:29

awake looking up to the stars or to the

18:32

heavens and there was

18:34

a particular star that stood out bright to

18:36

me. And I

18:39

felt a closeness to that star and to

18:41

my dad at that time. The

18:44

next morning, his aunt asked him if he

18:46

knew the day before was his father's birthday.

18:49

He hadn't, but he

18:51

never forgot that birthday and

18:53

how they sort of spent it together. And

18:57

I later throughout the

18:59

next several years could always find

19:01

that star and had

19:03

a sense of connection. Those

19:14

connections are made more real because

19:17

of their family's religious faith. The

19:20

Rasmussen's are devout members of the Church of

19:22

Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints. Their

19:25

faith promised that their dad wasn't really gone.

19:28

Lisa said she feels his presence in her

19:30

life, even if she can't see his face

19:32

or ask him what kind of ice cream he likes

19:34

best. I really do feel his

19:37

closeness at different times. I feel

19:39

that he's with me and I truly

19:41

believe that he is my family's guardian

19:43

angel. All three children

19:45

took comfort in the idea that they would see

19:47

their father in heaven. Dave

19:50

says one of the explanations given to him was

19:52

that his father's death was part of a

19:54

larger plan orchestrated by God. Throughout

19:56

my upbringing, I had no reason to question.

19:59

It was just... who I

20:01

was as part of my heritage

20:04

and had always believed

20:06

that God has a specific

20:08

plan for all of us.

20:12

And my plan included the

20:14

loss of my father. But

20:17

he could never make peace with the idea that

20:19

God's plan for him included

20:21

his father's murder. If

20:23

this was the plan, nobody consulted

20:25

with me. I've

20:29

left the Latter-day Saint religion about 12 years ago,

20:32

and he now recognizes how those

20:34

religious ideas helped him in some

20:36

ways and created conflict

20:39

in others. Even though at times

20:41

I may have been harboring resentment to

20:43

God and say, well, if this is

20:45

the plan, you know, it

20:48

sucks. But I know there was also

20:51

a faith that I had in

20:53

the time that there's something beyond that

20:55

we're all working towards and striving for. So

20:59

that got me through some of those challenges. And

21:02

even though Dave no longer shares his family's faith,

21:04

he's grateful for his mom's example. I

21:08

told her, you know, mom, you've done

21:10

an amazing job. You've helped

21:12

me to get to where I am. And

21:15

it's just not something that I hold

21:17

as a belief anymore. But

21:20

God bless you for helping to get

21:22

me through tests and trials the way

21:24

I have with

21:27

some sense of structure and

21:29

belief that eased some of those

21:31

pains and gave me, yes, an

21:33

idea that there's more beyond this

21:36

life. Jordan's

21:39

murder clearly had deep and enduring impacts on

21:42

all of his children. But

21:44

what impact would their mother's decision

21:46

to forgive his killer have on them? As

21:56

Lisa got older, it was clear that like her mother,

21:59

she was Big fear and

22:01

anxiety. If whenever three boys

22:03

wanted to go on a road trip. It

22:05

center into a panic just as it did

22:07

her mother when she was a teenager. And

22:10

because it was trauma that happened so early

22:12

in life, she doesn't even know who she

22:14

might be without it. I

22:17

know the I have issues in my life. There remain

22:19

from this trauma and for me

22:21

I know it's just part of

22:23

who. I am too. I like it,

22:26

know it manifests itself. Through anxiety and

22:28

sometimes it's more extreme than others

22:30

and so. I do wish that. I

22:33

could live a life. Without.

22:35

These anxieties. The I don't even

22:37

know anything else. But. Is

22:39

Lisa inherited her mother's anxiety. She also

22:42

learned something from watching how her mother

22:44

process Greece. She was

22:46

a teenager. Maybe. Fifteen or sixteen When she

22:48

understood that her family had forgiven. Michael.

22:51

Moore. I knew that my

22:53

mom had been riding. To might. There

22:55

wasn't a secret. But. Also wasn't

22:57

like this huge thing either. using.

23:00

Oh, this is a natural process or

23:02

oh, this is crazy like. oh, I didn't

23:05

think it was crazy. Yeah, Now.

23:08

I just thought this is I decided

23:10

this is good because I've been taught

23:12

that it's required for us to forgive

23:14

all. Then. Everyone.

23:17

Lisa absorbed the lessons of forgiveness. Almost.

23:20

Without realizing it. It.

23:22

Was just what her family did. I

23:25

think the forgiveness was definitely I

23:27

owe. A huge part of that, my Mom

23:29

and to. My grandparents and

23:32

my Aunt's as they. Were.

23:35

Set good examples to me. That

23:37

they just made it so that it

23:39

was possible that I saw their laws

23:41

and their compassion and the love and

23:43

light that they share that it blood

23:46

and to me. as

23:49

unbelievable as it sounds lisa has

23:51

accepted this forgiveness so completely she

23:53

doesn't even blame michael moore for

23:56

the traces of trauma she struggles

23:58

with every day Even

24:00

with like all the anxieties that I do have,

24:02

I don't ever blame that on him. I'm

24:05

glad for that. I'm glad that I don't

24:07

have to have such negative

24:09

feelings towards someone on top of dealing

24:12

with my own anxieties

24:14

and securities. I

24:17

can't imagine what it would be like

24:19

to have that negativity poisoning in my

24:21

body on top of the

24:24

other things that I feel. For

24:28

me, forgiveness is

24:31

to free ourselves. It's

24:33

to free ourselves from that poison,

24:36

that negativity in us.

24:41

But for her brothers, it would

24:43

be more complicated, especially as they

24:45

approached adulthood. And it would

24:47

be Chad, the youngest, who'd ask

24:49

his siblings to do something they hadn't

24:51

even considered, meet with their

24:54

father's killer, and decide for themselves

24:56

if he deserved forgiveness. Chad's

24:59

reasons for doing that would come from

25:01

his family's efforts to help Michael earn

25:03

parole, and it would bring him

25:05

for the first time into a room with

25:07

Buddy Booth's family. After

25:10

the break, we'll hear how the choices the

25:12

Booths make lead them to that room in

25:15

the prison. This.

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That s o. Oh, T-H-I-M-G-S-L-E-E-P.

28:03

Sweet dreams. Buddy

28:06

Booths oldest daughter Norma insists she's

28:09

a daddy's girl. Oh, it's a big

28:11

time daddy's girl. Even though

28:13

she can't really remember being the center

28:16

of her dad's world. She

28:18

lost her father when she was only four years old, but

28:21

all of her life, everyone's been telling her this. And

28:24

they've pointed out how his habits, his mannerisms

28:26

show up in her. There

28:29

was times when my family were like, some

28:31

of the things I would do, it's like,

28:34

your daddy used to do the same thing. Her

28:37

little sister Dana inherited Buddy's curly red hair

28:39

and freckles, but Norma has traces

28:41

of her dad that only someone

28:43

who loved him might recognize. Her

28:46

aunts would point out these remnants of Buddy whenever they

28:48

saw them, how she finds

28:50

comfort in tucking her hands into her pants when

28:52

she watches TV. My aunts

28:54

are like, what are you doing? I'm

28:56

like, Nanny?

28:58

So I was just sitting there watching TV and she goes, you know what?

29:02

Your dad used to do the same thing. Or

29:04

the way she looks when she's processing a joke.

29:07

I was talking to my aunt during the one time and

29:10

she made a joke or something. But then she's all

29:12

like, you and your

29:14

dad, you like two peas

29:16

in a pod. When he

29:18

makes, he cuts a joke and hears a

29:20

joke and he's like trying to comprehend what

29:23

the joke was. And we're

29:25

like, huh? He used to do the

29:27

same thing. Not really memories,

29:29

but connections to him. And

29:31

they mean everything to her. Even

29:34

if the joy she feels is tinged

29:36

with longing. In a way, it was comforting

29:38

and happy to know that I

29:41

had some kind of trait from him. But

29:44

at the same time, it made me sad because I

29:46

wanted to see

29:48

him for myself. I

29:50

wish I could have had some kind of experience

29:52

with my dad. To

29:54

make memories, you know, that I could

29:56

Know in Korean. When.

30:01

That he would killed it. Left his twenty three

30:04

year old wife Carla a widow. She

30:06

relied on help, some family and then

30:08

South Pole to create a more solid

30:10

family structure around her girls. They.

30:12

Needed a feather? In. She

30:15

needed a partner. When.

30:17

A friendship turn romantic? It seem like

30:19

a blessing. The. Fact that he

30:21

was already a father mattress made him more

30:23

attractive. He was a single

30:25

father. And he

30:27

was raising his old children and I

30:30

thought, well, Babies. Good guide.

30:33

The. Married within a year of Buddies Das and

30:36

added a six child a boy to their

30:38

blended family. Because

30:40

Norma was only four when her dad was

30:42

killed the she didn't really understand why her

30:44

dad was suddenly gone. Remember she's

30:46

been about eight months in foster care, so

30:49

she had been taken away somebody before. But

30:52

she was so young. That even

30:54

when her mother took her to her father's grave

30:56

and tried to make it clear, She

30:58

still didn't understand. I remember

31:00

him with they are Moment and then

31:03

he was in there. Is

31:05

wondering where he was and and

31:07

on I didn't. Something was. A

31:11

my well does he like some

31:13

and bat. I

31:16

don't really know say new the

31:18

sunset bite everybody was my bad.

31:21

So. When her mom remarried, see just accepted

31:23

the new father figure. I

31:26

remember one day. My

31:28

stepfather. Was there. I

31:30

figured since of my business.

31:33

It wasn't until she was older and Norma

31:35

think she was in second grade when she

31:37

finally started to piece together the puzzle of

31:39

her missing dad. Her class was

31:42

studying family origins and parents were invited to

31:44

come to school for the day. Kids

31:46

had a chance to show off their moms and

31:48

dads. Carla tended with Norma but or step dad

31:50

was working. Norm it breaks down.

31:53

Remembering how her friend asked by her dad was

31:55

in a school with her that day. Moment.

31:58

of my friends i grew her dad

32:01

and I'm all like well he's

32:03

at work. So I asked my mom

32:05

when I got home can you tell

32:07

me the origin of my dad and

32:10

she slipped and she's like which one? Norma

32:14

was momentarily confused. As

32:17

she listened to her mom she felt a memory

32:19

somewhere in the shadows of her seven-year-old mind

32:21

taking shape. What

32:23

do you mean which one? And

32:26

she goes your biological dad or your

32:28

stepdad? I'm

32:30

like a sweet you know like oh

32:33

yeah. Suddenly Norma understood

32:35

what her mother tried to tell her

32:38

when her father was killed. When

32:40

I was younger I didn't realize what

32:44

she meant by your dad's gun. That's

32:48

when it really hit me. The

32:51

loss changed her life. It changed how

32:53

she felt about herself, about her mom. Realizing

32:56

her real dad was dead was

32:59

like losing him for the first time. I

33:03

felt like my chest. I

33:07

felt like my mom should have prepared

33:09

me more. When I felt like

33:11

I needed a touch for about

33:13

it she was always like you

33:15

know it's over and it's just done with you

33:17

know let's move on you got to step down

33:19

now and my

33:22

problems were significant enough

33:24

to talk about. Her

33:27

yearning for her dad never went away. She

33:30

turned her stepfather to fill that void and

33:33

that only led to more heartache. I

33:36

leaned on my stepdad because

33:39

he was showing me

33:41

affection that my mom

33:44

wasn't. You know he was taking

33:46

my side so I kind of lean

33:48

on him more which I shouldn't

33:50

have because there are certain things

33:52

that have happened. Carla's

33:55

new husband drink all the time. Drink

33:57

away their money and threw them deep into

34:00

That. They. Thought

34:02

constantly. The. Actual a

34:04

horrible person. He good things

34:06

in the marriage that. I

34:10

should have left the next. Five years that

34:12

I. Stayed with him like. That wife.

34:15

But. The worst thing about staying for

34:17

so long? Is what happened to

34:19

her daughter. The man

34:21

Norma trusted to love and care for her.

34:24

Highly The.trust in one of the

34:27

worst ways possible. He

34:29

began molesting her around eight ten. Or.

34:32

He will always tell me. If

34:35

you tell your mom and Skyn a split

34:37

us up her car down is going to

34:39

be spent upper any don't want that right

34:41

in their minds and now I don't because.

34:45

With my. Biological dance

34:47

buddy. Being. Taken

34:49

away some as. I

34:51

didn't wanna be the reason

34:54

than another family when be

34:56

separated. He knows I wanted

34:58

to keep home. And

35:00

my family I had. Harley

35:03

didn't find out about the abuse until her

35:05

husband molested to neighbor girls and their parents.

35:07

Called police. She didn't

35:09

believe the allegations at first, but then

35:12

he confessed. It. Devastated.

35:14

they're already fragile existence.

35:18

For. Norma the arrest was a release. But

35:20

it it also set off a new wave. Of

35:23

pain. I

35:25

blame him for. My.

35:28

Psychological Men: Men's home

35:30

Thoughts: Hi sound amount

35:33

myself. Lights. I

35:35

am fill were the I felt like

35:38

I deserved it and I was a

35:40

strong enough to say no. And

35:42

as a time when on and I

35:45

got older and by it all came

35:47

out I had a chance to really

35:49

sit in. say you know I I

35:52

was wrong a he's an imbalance me.

35:58

I think it's important to note. And

36:00

it's common for children to blame themselves for

36:02

things that happen. To them. Remember,

36:05

Norma assumed she was to blame when

36:07

she didn't understand why, but he just

36:09

disappeared. From her life. Psychologists.

36:11

The children see. The world from the inside out.

36:13

In is everything comes from within and it's

36:16

easy to see why I target. Blame themselves

36:18

for things that happen to them. Thankfully

36:21

normal was able to see. Through

36:23

therapy that the things that happened

36:25

to her we're not her fault,

36:27

that. Even as adults, Sometimes.

36:30

There's a gap between what we know to be

36:32

true. And what makes us feel. No

36:36

one can say what would have happened if Buddy

36:38

had lived. But Norma

36:40

often wonders. What? Her life might

36:42

have been like. If they had

36:44

been kinder to her. He

36:47

ever think about what your life would have been like

36:49

or what would have happened to you if your dad

36:52

had lived. Yeah,

36:54

I don't think them this when that happened

36:56

I think we would have been a happy

36:58

family you know? Your. Parents did mean

37:00

they had struggles they were young for and maybe they

37:02

would worked it out. but even if they were divorced

37:04

you think it would have been better for you. Like.

37:07

If he was alive and you could talk to him and

37:09

yeah, Says I am and of handmade. Dad

37:11

and I would have been. You. Know

37:14

he will go to him. With

37:16

my struggles in life, you know, Non.

37:19

A stepfather was jailed for a year. He.

37:21

Attended therapy. And when he

37:23

was released he apologized. He

37:26

started talking to me it's our client and

37:28

I thought I'd I'd kind. And

37:31

his I'd I never meant to for he

37:33

and i felt horrible very terrible about and

37:35

things have than you. And

37:37

I was second take it back By that I know

37:39

and I can't. All. I can

37:42

think about as moving forward and time

37:44

to rebuild the relationship the High destroyed.

37:47

So. After a while.

37:50

I. Just knew that in I need

37:52

as for myself to forgive him. Norma.

37:55

Thanks for giving her stepdad. May. have

37:58

set her up for how she handled other person

38:00

of forgiveness. Surviving sexual

38:02

abuse haunts her in so many painful

38:04

ways but she said it's where

38:06

her belief about redemption was formed. For

38:09

those who try to change who are remorseful, she

38:11

sees a way back. Knowing

38:13

that he was in jail, he

38:15

was getting his own therapy sessions

38:17

and he was on

38:20

the road of recovery and understanding

38:22

and feeling more remorse and

38:25

he was sorry for what he had done, I feel

38:27

that he deserved a second chance. But

38:31

it wasn't just her stepfather she had to think about

38:33

forgiving. Norma didn't know it

38:35

yet but her mother Carla had started correspondence with

38:37

her father's killer. For

38:40

years Carla thought Michael Moore deserved to die

38:42

for his crimes but she figured

38:44

he was locked away and no longer a reason

38:46

for concern so she didn't think much

38:48

about it. After a

38:50

1995 hearing, Michael Moore

38:52

asked the Utah Board of Pardons and Parole to

38:54

forward his letters to the Booth family. In a

38:57

letter to Jordan's sister Leslie, Michael

38:59

said her decision to forgive him had inspired

39:02

him to find a way to reach out

39:04

to Buddy's family, especially his

39:06

widow Carla. When

39:09

I got the first letter of

39:11

his, I was like, oh

39:14

no, I was kind of

39:16

freaked out. Then I read

39:18

it, he apologized, he

39:21

wanted to when he got out he wanted to

39:23

be able to sit down with me and have

39:25

coffee and talk and stuff like that and

39:28

I had believed that he was

39:31

truly sorry. In his

39:33

letter, Michael told her about his troubled

39:35

childhood and his father's abuse and

39:38

I want to note we don't have any way to

39:40

prove or disprove Michael's allegations

39:43

but he did tell therapists, clergy and he shared

39:45

what he endured with the families of his

39:47

victims in his letters and

39:50

Carla believed what Michael told her and

39:53

I was sad for him for

39:55

what he had gone through

39:57

prior for all this had happened. It

40:00

hurt me to hear what he had gone through

40:02

in his family life. With everything

40:05

that Michael told her, Carla

40:07

felt she could finally make sense

40:09

of what happened. You know, I believe

40:11

that when somebody

40:13

is so angry at someone else

40:16

that they can snap on someone else.

40:20

He was angry with his father for all

40:23

the abuse his father had put on him and

40:25

his mother, and so he was

40:27

angry that day. Michael

40:30

needed help because

40:32

of all his childhood abuse,

40:36

and he never got that help. Carla

40:40

decided to write back. In her letter

40:42

to Michael, she said she was, quote, just

40:45

too old to let this keep haunting me

40:47

anymore. I need to face this

40:49

chapter of my life head on so I can close it.

40:53

She acknowledged her in-laws did not

40:55

forgive Michael, but she

40:57

wanted to try, and she asked if he'd

40:59

meet with her. She

41:01

wrote, in order for me to do this, I

41:03

must see you and hear from you, not

41:06

just in a letter, but in person. I

41:08

guess I'm not as bitter as I was 13 years ago

41:11

or a few months ago. After

41:19

an exchange of several letters, Carla

41:21

went by herself to visit Michael in the prison

41:24

in February of 1996. I

41:27

was nervous. I was super nervous,

41:30

and they had me sit

41:34

across from him, and

41:36

he had someone sitting

41:39

next to him. I

41:42

was by myself sitting there, and

41:45

it was tough at first. There

41:50

was a lot of emotion between both

41:52

of us, and we

41:55

cried a lot. That's

41:58

when I really knew he had it. He had changed.

42:01

He was really

42:03

sad, really sorry

42:05

for what he did. I

42:08

had anger when I

42:10

was in the courtroom looking at him, but

42:13

then at the prison, the

42:16

anger was gone. He

42:18

told me, he says, he expected

42:21

this bitter, angry old woman

42:23

to show up. He

42:26

says, but what he's seen before him

42:28

was a beautiful young woman. I

42:33

told him, you know, Michael, I says, I can't stay

42:35

angry with you. I says,

42:37

if I was angry and bitter about things,

42:39

it would affect my children too, and

42:41

I couldn't let that happen. In

42:45

that meeting, Carla told him how she wished

42:47

she'd gotten her high school diploma, how she

42:49

had dreams of going to college. And

42:52

a few months later, Michael sent her money to help

42:54

her go back to school, hoping that

42:56

might help her find financial stability.

43:00

Michael talked about his conversation with Carla in

43:02

letters to the Rasmussen family. Michael

43:04

told them how being forgiven by

43:06

them made him want to do

43:09

more than just apologize. In

43:11

one letter, Michael shared his feelings about what

43:13

it meant to finally connect with Carla and

43:16

how he tried to make amends for what he'd done

43:18

to her and her daughters. Here's

43:21

part of a letter he wrote to Jordan's sister Anne

43:23

Marie, read by an actor. Carla

43:26

was much poorer than your family. When I

43:29

shot Buddy, she was very young. In her letter to

43:31

me, she spoke of her desire to finish high school

43:33

and go to college. She

43:35

took a staff so I could restore the educational

43:38

opportunity I took for her. I

43:40

took most of my savings and provided her a fund

43:42

to pay for her four years at the university. She

43:45

received that last month. She's

43:48

now enrolled in Creekside High School and soon headed

43:50

for college. So while

43:52

I can't make restitution, in some ways I can

43:54

at least try. And

44:00

he'd invested it. So he decided

44:02

to send Carla $10,000 so she could go

44:04

to school and a bit more money

44:06

to help with bills. But

44:08

Carla said she ended up using it all just

44:11

to survive. Norma

44:17

was married with two children of her own when her

44:19

mom started talking to her about forgiving Michael. My

44:22

mom was saying that he

44:24

felt really bad and that

44:26

he is asking

44:28

everybody for forgiveness. Norma

44:31

said she'd think about it. She's

44:33

pagan and she doesn't go to church,

44:36

but she considers herself spiritual and

44:38

she prayed for guidance, for relief from

44:40

the pain, the anger, the

44:43

resentment. And a

44:45

few nights later, she had an

44:47

unexpected visit. I

44:50

had a dream and

44:53

my dad was visiting me in my dream. And

44:59

he's like, at some point you've got

45:01

to forgive. And

45:04

I didn't know what that meant. If

45:07

it was for my

45:10

mom or it was for

45:12

my sister, because

45:14

my sister and I didn't have a great relationship,

45:16

my mom and I didn't have a great relationship when I

45:18

was growing up. And

45:22

I just kind of like, I

45:25

honestly forgave all of them.

45:29

So when her mother asked her if she wanted to write

45:31

a letter to the board of pardons on Michael's behalf, she

45:34

was ready. I

45:36

mean, I will never forget it, you

45:40

know, that he told my dad away. But

45:44

it's kind of been some point in your life. You got

45:46

to just forgive, you know,

45:48

he's at his time. He's apparently

45:51

his own remorse. After

45:55

the dream, she chose to forgive, not

45:58

just Michael, but anyone who's Her

46:00

Her. He. Was no

46:02

conversation? Know confrontation. And. Know

46:04

college? He. It was just that

46:06

she needed to do for herself. In.

46:09

Order for me to be happy. I need to move

46:11

on. Linux said that things

46:13

as happened an American so. She.

46:15

Said her decision. Was. About the

46:18

person she wanted to be. And

46:20

the kind of life she wanted to live. And.

46:22

Was after that dream. That she realized

46:24

what her anger was doing to her. So.

46:27

I for day them. All of

46:29

them. And. I

46:31

just felt like. A slot

46:34

says listed I passed my test.

46:37

You. Know and and I fell right.

46:39

Idea was when I needed to do.

46:44

He sat down and wrote a letter to the man

46:46

who robbed her of a license. her dad. But

46:49

she didn't put it in the mail. She

46:51

took it with her to the prison for seat

46:54

have a chance to read it and Michael herself.

46:58

That. After the break. A.

47:02

Jerk is it with a cringe memory of

47:04

your thirteen year old self out of nowhere

47:06

and somewhere panic, sweating and laughing at the

47:08

same time. Don't door to where we all

47:10

get up because being an adolescent is one

47:13

of the visceral shared experiences we have as

47:15

people and we want to talk about it.

47:17

Join. Me: Penn Badgley in my two

47:20

friends, Nevins Sophie on Pod Crust as

47:22

we interview celebrity guests about the joys

47:24

and horrors. Of being a teenager

47:26

and how those moments made them who they

47:28

are today. New episodes of Pod

47:31

Chris around now wherever you go to Podcasts.

47:35

Science and and Raytheon and I'm

47:37

Jessica Sinclair and of we would

47:40

like to invite You are a

47:42

hilarious and part south journey. each

47:44

week on the device. From

47:47

navigating the chaos of motherhood and

47:49

family to exploring that sets of

47:51

grief and loss, we are just

47:54

two best friends who process life

47:56

together. And with you guys

47:58

Discover Or Seacrest. finding joy

48:01

amidst madness and get ready

48:03

for unfiltered conversations about life,

48:06

love, and everything in between.

48:08

And nails. We talk a lot about

48:10

nails. Now, community is everything to

48:12

us at The Deep Dive. We believe in

48:14

the power of connection and the strength that comes

48:16

from supporting one another and we would love to

48:19

have you with us. So be

48:21

sure to join us every Wednesday on

48:23

The Deep Dive from Lemonado Media, wherever

48:25

you get your podcasts. Two

48:34

days after former prosecutor John T. Nelson

48:37

ran into Michael Moore at the prison's

48:39

print shop, he ran into Jordan Rasmussen's

48:41

brother-in-law at a bank. And

48:43

it was this moment when he began working on a

48:45

plan to get Michael Moore in front of the parole

48:47

board. I

48:49

made contact with the Rasmussen family,

48:52

told them that I would do what I

48:54

could to help Michael. And

48:57

he wasn't due for a parole hearing

48:59

for several years. But I

49:02

knew the chairman of the board of partners, Mike

49:04

Sibit. And so I called Mike

49:06

up and I said, you know, I've

49:08

learned this incredible

49:10

story and

49:12

we need to cut

49:14

this kid some slack. We need to do

49:16

something. Chairman Sibit

49:19

agreed to take a look at Michael's

49:21

case. And he was apparently moved because

49:23

he took the very unusual step of

49:25

granting Michael Moore a special attention parole

49:27

hearing three years early. Good

49:32

morning. Are you Michael

49:34

Patrick Moore? Yes, sir. It

49:37

was warm for a winter morning on February 21, 1999. Chairman

49:39

Sibit started with the standard

49:42

formalities, welcomes, and

49:45

then an explanation as to why the board decided

49:47

to hear his case three years

49:49

earlier than planned. You

49:51

need to understand that one of the reasons

49:53

that we decided to do that is the

49:57

reality that you have probably Earned

50:00

a parole day. All

50:04

these years it had been only the Rasmussen,

50:06

so it attended parole. Hearings. But

50:09

this time. but he sailing sir. And

50:11

ready to speak as Michael's the half. Dorms,

50:15

parents, sisters and widow were seated

50:17

in the audience and for the

50:19

first time doing youngest son Chad

50:21

Rasmussen the Canada Parole Hearing. Let

50:24

the records show that. That

50:27

the victim's. Wife. And

50:29

victims daughter. But if those

50:31

present they have as to

50:33

testify and I'll allow that

50:36

testimony. Carla

50:38

to said it. Her correspondence with

50:40

Michael Moore changed her mind about him.

50:44

My Can! I have written many

50:46

setters over the past three years.

50:48

Every time I read his letters

50:50

I feel very confident about the

50:52

change and him. I. Have

50:54

done a lot of changing in my life as

50:56

well. As I needed to.

50:58

If they stop the for I could forgive him.

51:01

That can make has helped. Me

51:03

believe in myself and into my education.

51:06

Or to. Make his help

51:09

me find safe and myself and

51:11

and others. I

51:13

also believe that. If

51:16

Mike is released, he will continue

51:18

to help. Others. To.

51:21

Get other whatever hurdle they wish

51:23

to get over. Thanks.

51:26

And the Norma does. Twenty years old.

51:29

Lean. Toward the microphone. And.

51:32

Open the letter she'd written. Hello!

51:34

My name is normal for hims my maiden

51:37

name is boost. Your

51:39

behalf of Michael Moore. Of

51:42

all analyze to say that. To

51:45

the past few years Michael has really

51:47

helped me. Mom leaves the room to

51:49

his old also helps. Me mean

51:52

that. Michael has answered

51:54

some kristin stance helps. Me

51:58

to understand. Mean,

52:00

I move on with my life. I

52:03

believe people's concerns with and time.

52:06

I believe Michael has changed and

52:08

and my her I truly believe

52:10

that Michael aside for what is

52:12

them are at the same goes

52:14

for can change the past. They

52:17

can only move forward or believes

52:19

to against one another as they

52:21

answer. They generally learn

52:23

from our mistakes and take responsibility

52:25

for our actions. I believe Michael

52:28

has done that by serving his

52:30

time. I have

52:32

cancer is pets Michael Moore in a way

52:34

to come to the plate to forgive him.

52:37

And I literally like to say Michael's skyn

52:39

at a chance to lead for freedom. For

52:42

his freedom fighters. Sitting

52:44

a few feet from where normal with

52:46

expressing our feelings or forgiveness. And

52:49

eighteen year old who skipped. School to attend

52:51

the hearing with his family. Was. Losing

52:53

a battle to hide in emotional

52:55

conflict that blindsided him. Tad

52:58

Rasmussen towards youngest child. listened,

53:01

With. Tears streaming down his face. I

53:05

remember sitting on the court room at the

53:07

prison and. They locked

53:09

mike more into the room and that was

53:11

the first time I'd seen. Not.

53:15

Only was it the first time chatted. Seen

53:17

his father's killer, It was

53:19

the first hearing of any kind. He defended.

53:22

And and I did have. A

53:25

flood of emotion. I I am.

53:29

Home. Mixes of emotions, mostly

53:31

the pain. That

53:33

I had been going through. And.

53:38

Seen for the first time. This man. it.

53:41

Said cause that. And

53:46

begin We were there as a

53:49

family, showing support for. Justice

53:53

and mercy to allow him. To.

53:57

Come out but. It

54:00

was almost like this was

54:02

my first trial. Chad

54:06

was just a toddler when Michael Moore was tried for

54:08

his crimes. He never

54:10

experienced the testimony, the confession, the

54:13

graphic descriptions of his father's murder

54:15

for him. This parole hearing was his

54:18

first chance to come to terms with what Michael

54:20

had taken from him. So

54:22

I had a lot of conflict then

54:26

because again, I'm in the throws

54:28

of my pain. He

54:31

knew his family had forgiven Michael. They

54:33

had already spoken on Michael's behalf at a previous

54:35

area, but all he could

54:37

feel was what this man's decision had cost

54:39

him, a kid who wanted to

54:41

have his own memories of his father. And

54:45

I just weeped through the entire

54:47

trial. As

54:50

Chad listened that day, he heard

54:52

the messages of change, of redemption, of

54:54

forgiveness, that all he felt

54:57

was pain. He

54:59

didn't share this grief or how conflicted

55:01

he felt. He wasn't sure how

55:03

to do that with people who had moved

55:05

on so completely. It was hard

55:07

to see how he could ever join them. As

55:10

a family, we openly talked

55:12

about it with the

55:15

healing process that my

55:18

mom and grandparents and aunts had been

55:20

going through. I even remember

55:22

we were talking about how even

55:25

Mike could go and live in the basement of my

55:27

grandparents. Like that's how strange this

55:30

change of heart was. But

55:32

how did he feel about Michael Moore? Chad

55:35

realized he couldn't just let his family

55:37

decide for him, especially as

55:40

his 19th birthday approached. That's

55:42

because he was preparing to leave the

55:44

country for two years to do

55:46

missionary work in Hong Kong for his church. If

55:50

I'm going to go out and share a message

55:52

of the gospel of

55:54

Jesus Christ and his role, that

55:56

being able to help All

55:58

men overcome. Any sand or

56:01

any imperfections. That. We

56:03

can forgive all. Through.

56:05

That power and also that

56:07

all people can be forgiven.

56:10

I. Realized that. I.

56:12

Needed to complete that for myself.

56:18

Cat business and knew what he had to do. It

56:21

was only one person. Who can answer his

56:23

questions? Now with Michael Moore.

56:26

So. Before he left and his mission he

56:28

was going to need to visit the prison. And

56:32

for the first time he would question.

56:34

The. Forgiveness heat inherited from unseemly.

56:37

I started thinking to myself evolving

56:40

for were all falling for this

56:42

guy's trick. And

56:45

I didn't want to fall for that

56:47

trek. That's

56:51

next time On the final episode of

56:54

the latter, Season to. People

56:57

act. Of

57:06

the heard in this episode children

57:08

exposed to Tama can face challenges

57:10

that often persist into adulthood and

57:12

producer Andreessen and on this week's

57:14

don't Is That the Said Jordan

57:16

Mattress and Sundays Down as a

57:18

psychologist to talk about some of

57:20

the been resolved innocence. Surface for

57:23

him during the making of this

57:25

podcast was to get some tips

57:27

on how to recognize trauma in

57:29

children and has those struggling with

57:31

my to get access to bonus

57:33

content on Apple podcasts. Just click on

57:35

the button to subscribe to London at

57:37

a premium. Follow us on social media

57:39

at the letter parties are set on

57:42

our website. The lot of podcast. That

57:44

com. If you like the letter,

57:46

please take a seat minutes. And give us

57:48

a rating and write a review. It

57:50

helps are so get discovered. The letters.

57:53

he's into is written by me any

57:55

donaldson and envious martin was also lead

57:57

on production and sound design with it

58:00

additional help from Nina Earnest and Erin Mason.

58:02

Mixing by Trent Sowell. See

58:04

music composed by Alison Layton

58:07

Brown. Special thanks to Becky

58:09

Bruce, Kellyanne Halverson, Ryan Meeks,

58:11

Ben Kiebrick, Felix Benel, Josh

58:13

Tilton, and Dave Collie. With

58:15

Lemonado Media, executive producers Jessica

58:18

Cordova Kramer and Stephanie Wittelsback.

58:20

For Workhouse Media, executive producer

58:22

Paul Anderson. And for

58:24

KSL Podcasts, executive producer Cheryl

58:27

Borsley. The letter is a

58:29

production of KSL Podcasts and Lemonado Media

58:31

in association with Workhouse Media. Hey

58:41

everyone, it's David Duchovny. Do

58:43

you ever feel like a failure? Trust

58:45

me, I get it. Hell, I've

58:48

spent my whole life almost feeling

58:50

like a failure. It's

58:52

appropriate though, because on Fail Better, my

58:54

new podcast with Lemonado Media, exploring

58:57

the world of failure, how it holds

58:59

us back, propels us forward, and

59:01

ultimately shapes our lives is the whole

59:03

point. Each week

59:05

I'll chat with artists, athletes, actors,

59:08

and experts about how

59:10

our perceived failures have actually been our

59:12

biggest catalysts for growth, revelation,

59:15

and even healing. Through

59:18

these conversations, I hope we can learn how

59:20

to embrace the opportunity of failure and

59:22

Fail Better together. Fail

59:25

Better is out now. You can listen

59:27

ad-free on Amazon Music or wherever

59:29

you get your podcasts. What

59:33

do weddings, Instagram, and toxic

59:35

relationships all have in common?

59:38

They take your money and you can't get it back.

59:42

16 grand, somewhere in there, gone. There's

59:44

no legal solution for the fact that

59:46

you married an asshole. Welcome

59:48

to The Do. I'm X Maya. We're

59:51

diving into the story surrounding the moolah

59:53

baby. The good, the bad, and the

59:55

unexpected. Yeah, we talking about it all.

59:58

The Do is out now. wherever you get

1:00:01

your podcasts.