0:01

Number one New York Times bestselling

0:03

author Scott Sigler brings you the

0:06

rookie season one of the Galactic

0:08

Football League series. A high octane

0:10

mashup of sci-fi, crime fiction and

0:12

sports tree wherever you listen to

0:14

podcasts. Hello

0:28

everyone, I'm Kristoff Liputka and this is

0:30

Leviathan Presents. It's a

0:32

segment where we highlight one audio fiction creator,

0:34

have a conversation and then play a full

0:36

episode of their show right here in our

0:38

feed. I hope you'll enjoy today's guest and

0:41

without further ado, let's get into the interview.

0:43

This is Leviathan Presents. Hey

0:52

everyone, it's Kristoff and I'm coming to

0:54

you from New York where Robin and

0:56

I have been spending the last week

0:58

editing our next Leviathan show called the

1:00

Invenios Expeditions that we've told you about.

1:03

And so far it's sounding really good. We have a

1:05

lot of work to do, but we can't wait to

1:07

bring it to your headphones next spring. Stay

1:10

tuned after this episode of Leviathan Presents because

1:12

we're going to be playing the theme song

1:14

to the Invenios Expeditions. So definitely stay tuned

1:17

and let us know what you think. Robin

1:20

is going to be hosting this episode of Leviathan

1:22

Presents and be telling you about an amazing

1:24

new audio drama creator that we met this

1:26

fall. But this is going to be the

1:28

last that you're going to hear from me this year. I

1:32

also want to let you know that we

1:34

have a brand new Christmas episode that we

1:36

just released and make sure you check it

1:38

out on our feed because that episode is

1:40

going away on January 2nd. And if you

1:42

don't listen to it now, you're not going

1:44

to hear it again until next December. 2024

1:47

is going to be one of the biggest years in

1:49

the 15 year history of Leviathan audio. And we have

1:51

some really big stuff planned that we're so excited to tell you about.

1:54

But I just wanted to take a

1:56

second to thank you all again for

1:58

your continued support. and for telling all

2:01

of your friends about our show. I wish

2:03

you all the happiest of holidays and a

2:05

vinacious filled new year. Take care everyone.

2:07

Hey everyone, this is

2:09

Robin bringing you another episode of

2:11

Leviathan Presents and I'm really excited

2:14

today because we are talking to

2:16

not just one but three great

2:18

audio fiction creators. Joining me today

2:20

are Marissa Ewing, Melissa Pons, and

2:22

KJ Scott. Collectively, these three are

2:25

the creative team behind Liars and

2:27

Leeches, a fantastic psychological horror audio

2:29

drama series that debuted earlier this

2:31

year. I've been listening to the

2:33

show over the past month or so and have really

2:35

enjoyed it. I think that you all will too. We're

2:37

going to be playing the first episode of Liars

2:40

and Leeches here for you today but before

2:42

that we're going to be chatting with our

2:44

three creators here to learn a little bit

2:46

about the inspiration behind the show and what

2:48

it was like creating it. Marissa, Melissa, and

2:50

KJ, welcome to Leviathan Presents. Thank you so

2:52

much for being here with us today. Why

2:55

don't we start by having you each say hi and

2:57

telling us what your role in the show was. Sure,

3:00

I guess I can go first. My name is

3:02

Marissa. I am the creator

3:04

of Liars and Leeches, so I'm

3:06

the person that created the story

3:09

and the characters. I also

3:11

did dialogue editing and

3:14

directing the cast and then

3:16

I did mixing and mastering at the very

3:18

end. So my name

3:20

is Melissa and I'm the sound

3:23

designer. I've done the sound design for

3:25

the show. Hi, I'm KJ and I

3:27

took Marissa's wonderful story and I turned

3:29

it into a script. Marissa,

3:31

I want to start with you since you were the

3:34

original creator of the show. Why don't you just give

3:36

our listeners a synopsis of what the

3:38

show is about and tell us how you came up with

3:41

the idea for it originally. Yeah,

3:43

sure. The story is about a

3:45

woman named Tanya. Before

3:47

the story actually starts, she suffered

3:49

a pretty significant loss, the sudden death of

3:52

both of her sister

3:54

and brother-in-law in a mass shooting.

3:57

So the story initially starts out with her

3:59

trying to recover, kind of relearning

4:01

how to go out in public,

4:03

trying to deal with her anxiety.

4:06

But after she moves into the house

4:08

that her sister and brother-in-law essentially

4:10

left behind for her, she

4:13

starts noticing that she's being followed by someone

4:15

that seems to be drawn to her. So

4:17

it's her trying to deal with her

4:19

grief and loss while also trying to recognize

4:22

that there is this potential

4:24

external threat and her

4:26

trying to struggle with if it's actually

4:28

a real threat or if it's just in her

4:31

mind. And what was it about audio drama that

4:33

drew you in? What made you decide that

4:35

that was the medium you wanted to use to tell

4:37

this story? Yeah, I think it

4:39

was a few different reasons that I

4:41

chose audio. Firstly, I definitely have an

4:44

audio background in training. I think before this

4:46

I worked on a couple dozen

4:48

other shows but they were all for

4:50

other people. So I sort of wanted

4:53

to give myself a shot at creating

4:55

something original but definitely

4:58

for me having such a strong audio

5:00

background and not much knowledge

5:02

in video, I decided that both because

5:04

of my background and for budget reasons

5:06

that audio would probably be the way

5:08

to go for this particular story, kind

5:10

of get my chops in a medium

5:12

I'm particularly familiar with. I'm really happy

5:15

that we have Melissa and KJ here

5:17

today also because I always

5:19

tell people that audio drama and audio fiction

5:21

are a team sport. I think it's way

5:23

easier to make a show as well as

5:25

way more fun when you have some collaborators to work

5:28

with. KJ, I believe Liars and

5:30

Leeches was your first time writing for audio. How

5:32

did you enjoy working on this type of show?

5:34

Well, I have a background in screenwriting. I took

5:36

out a Bachelor in Film so I studied a

5:38

bit of screenwriting both academically and then

5:40

also just reading every book I could get a

5:43

hand on on the medium. So I'm sort of

5:45

used to approaching writing for my more sort of

5:47

like the bare bones of the visuals and more

5:50

coming out from dialogue but that's something I think

5:52

was her strength for writing Liars and Leeches because

5:54

this is a show that thrives so much on

5:56

dialogue, thrives so much on the character interactions. It

5:59

was super fun. And I loved working

6:01

in this format because it combines both prose

6:03

and screenwriting in a sense and I'm I'm

6:05

hoping to get to Write more audio drama

6:07

in the future I'm very curious about

6:09

what your the process of writing

6:11

the scripts was like because Marissa you said

6:13

you you came up with the original Concept

6:16

but KJ you actually turned them into scripts.

6:18

So what was that like? How did it

6:20

work generally? It was Kind

6:22

of a lot of back and forth because I

6:25

I consider Story creation

6:27

to be one of my strengths, but

6:29

definitely dialogue is one of my weak

6:31

points by far. So What

6:33

we did initially was I created this

6:36

big bulleted list for each episode

6:38

that explained the story beats that I

6:40

wanted to hit I also

6:42

created some additional documents that had sort

6:44

of background on the characters Background

6:47

on where these events were taking place

6:49

sort of their personalities things like that

6:52

So I basically tried to give KJ as

6:54

much information as possible to take those story

6:56

beats that I'd written And

6:59

turn them into a full script I think

7:01

it played to both of our strengths because Marissa

7:03

said the cheese great with story creation She really

7:05

it and I just loved the story of wires

7:08

and leeches the first time Marissa explained it to

7:10

me and I Personally

7:12

love writing character work and having grown up

7:15

watching the West Wing. I love lengthy monologues

7:17

and dialogue scenes but

7:19

I struggle personally when creating original

7:21

work with the story creation

7:23

the Meat and potatoes of what

7:26

happens to these characters So I was it was so

7:28

much fun to have Marissa's outlines

7:30

Incredible outline where she just really fleshed out like the

7:32

most beautiful plot and then just getting to sort of

7:34

run with that and take The characters in a fun

7:36

direction So I Want to talk a

7:39

little bit about the story actually because when

7:41

I first heard about the show I Met

7:43

Marissa at a couple web fest this year

7:45

and she was introducing it as a supernatural

7:47

horror show. Which I've listened to a lot

7:49

of supernatural horror podcasts and then I listened

7:52

to this and it felt a little different.

7:54

It's very grounded at first. It starts off

7:56

far more as sort of a psychological thriller

7:58

where you're really inside. Tanya. The main

8:00

characters had and it was a little unclear

8:02

where you going to go with it and

8:04

I love that I was trying to figure

8:06

out is this gonna be a traditional monster

8:08

show or is this more of a realistic

8:10

character study about dealing with from on mental

8:12

health issues. Yeah. There were definitely a

8:15

lot of different preferences as I

8:17

used for this particularly, so I

8:19

personally am a fan. Of horror that

8:21

said bit more. Ah, A

8:23

burn. I guess you could say so

8:25

kind of things like. An egg? I

8:28

wouldn't say that doesn't necessarily a slow

8:30

burn, but you really don't see it.

8:32

Or. Jaws himself until like the

8:35

end of that movie. Similar for other

8:37

movies like Get Out and nope For

8:39

like you you can tell that something

8:41

is wrong but you can't quite put

8:44

your finger on it until closer to

8:46

the end. So I'd definitely in a

8:48

for really like this idea of like

8:51

saving and holding onto the big reveal

8:53

until the very end. didn't really having

8:55

people sit in kind of. they're. Uncomfortable.

8:58

Ness until it. It really starts to

9:00

get scary towards the end. so that's

9:02

just personally a style I've always gravitated

9:04

towards and horror, so I kind of

9:06

wanted to take ah, That. Particular

9:09

style and make something of my on that

9:11

way. And this particular story, What? What did

9:13

you will like? What were your inspirations for

9:15

this actual source. Yeah. I think

9:17

it was on something else that I

9:19

really. Enjoy! In for is kind

9:21

of the idea of taking an

9:24

idea. It's either not concrete or

9:26

seals insurmountable. And. And

9:28

of personifying it in a way

9:30

that can be sought Are defeated.

9:32

So again I referenced Get Out

9:34

earlier. Ah, racism is not something

9:36

that you can says ugly site.

9:39

But. I in that particular

9:41

movie it's sort of persona Five no

9:43

way that in that particular scenario you

9:45

can. So sad. Being from the United

9:48

Sates and having personal experiences with the

9:50

gun violence, I decided that I wanted

9:52

to take. That. Style of

9:54

storytelling Does he know personifying something

9:56

that feels. Insurmountable and sort

9:59

of putting. You. Know gun

10:01

violence, anxiety, depression into kind

10:03

of this personified scenario. I

10:05

guess without spoiling it, that

10:08

can be. Physically doubtless war

10:10

and speaking to give informed to something

10:12

obstruct Melissa worry toasts a little by

10:14

the sound design for the So where

10:16

do you start with taking stuff like

10:19

depression and anxiety and turning it into

10:21

something an audience can actually hear? Were

10:23

you around when they were writing the

10:25

script to help guide the process of

10:28

how you're going to you Sound designed

10:30

to help tell the story? Yeah, They

10:32

were says something that's worth very

10:34

much like that's a as started

10:36

to read their scripts when they

10:38

were close to the latest were

10:41

some maybe it's not entirely closed

10:43

up let's you know. Very solid

10:45

already am and that my first

10:47

assignment lead say was also to

10:49

and provide suggestions are aware there

10:51

could be some with redundancy in

10:53

case we decided that the some

10:55

design couldn't tell some. Something that's

10:58

wouldn't be as super necessary. that's will

11:00

be told by and in the race

11:02

and for. Example. And and

11:04

then we the dialogue. There was

11:06

also some thoughts and some notes

11:09

on how. The axis.

11:11

Could maybe I'm helping us

11:13

the performance. Providing more options,

11:16

And. Sometimes feel outs

11:18

also like the background. seeing some

11:21

some extra candles material from from

11:23

the actors themselves so. That was

11:25

the first kind of inputs from for me

11:27

to which was we are really great and

11:29

also I think it was for me to

11:31

start to get personally involved at the stage

11:33

where it was. I think I have. Like. Several

11:35

weeks to get some. He live. With a

11:37

script with a story and them and it

11:40

was nice not to have. To jump

11:42

straight away to right, to sound design

11:44

a story or absurd both Melissa Marie

11:46

as I can speak to the so

11:48

often sound as I'd is kind of

11:50

the the last thought in the process

11:52

that even and audio first productions like

11:54

audio drama Yes though, it's really really

11:56

cool to hear that word. may I

11:58

run a young age. Yeah,

12:01

that was something most and I have worked

12:03

together on other shows in the past and

12:05

ah they've gone smoothly but there have been

12:08

times like we've come in after the actors

12:10

have already recorded and like it would be

12:12

so cool if we could have had like

12:14

some press. Here are some costs are things

12:17

like that but at that point like the

12:19

actors are done they've gone and their projects

12:21

so that was kind of something I wanted

12:23

and of being that creative director of the

12:26

project from the jumps was like making sure

12:28

we really had our sound design. Ideas

12:30

solid. so that way I wasn't like.

12:32

Calling. Some actor like four months later

12:35

like hey can we to do a session

12:37

for five minutes are you dislike heavily breathing

12:39

into a microphone so he can visit later

12:41

it latest. So I think that having those

12:43

notes from Melissa really did help save a

12:46

lot of time to l of the recording

12:48

sessions of the actors we went through and

12:50

then I did any type of that lake

12:52

solely worker like the smaller like breath sir

12:54

size or things like that we did of

12:57

the end and what thermoses notes you know

12:59

our audience is gonna hear episode one of

13:01

the show which. I. Also. Made.

13:04

Me: very anxious, useless seats to it to

13:06

see what were some of the techniques you

13:08

used as a sound designer that to heighten

13:10

those I'll take that as a compliment system.

13:13

To inducing cited some people. Yeah

13:16

I'm very involved the this creates says is

13:18

so I in I really need to focus

13:20

and having have it's printed. On paper and

13:22

I really going to this scene of

13:24

modes what I work with are primarily

13:26

kind of it's emotions was really trying.

13:28

To will deep into the either the character

13:30

or or or the scene or was because

13:32

I thought that the characters were so well

13:35

expressed all the time. He you know

13:37

it was very clear so I don't

13:39

think. Sound design was an aids is

13:41

in the sense that all it's bizarre.

13:43

That's leave. We can feel that. They are

13:45

sad, are scared here because I think that from the

13:47

right thing I think that was already know very well

13:50

delivered and. Says and of course some you know it's

13:52

others on his side to kind of embellish. I kind

13:54

of went through this. Okay, now here a lot of

13:56

excited see than panic. Modes and Than Hear

13:58

some release and then in August. this

14:00

kind of stuff. So I'm also feel recorded,

14:02

not record nature primarily. So

14:05

I also try really to use a

14:07

lot of like outdoors, not only outdoors

14:09

actually, but a lot of soundscapes that

14:11

would convey for me these kind of

14:14

sensations. And then there was a lot of

14:16

underscore also that I was, you know, making

14:18

with virtual instruments. Probably

14:20

I use some recordings as well and, you know,

14:22

kind of process it in a way. Something you

14:24

said at the beginning that I would like to

14:26

hear more about. You said you have to print

14:29

the script. Yeah. Can you elaborate on that a

14:31

little? Yeah, I take a lot of notes. And

14:34

I think I just have, I also like to read a lot,

14:36

but I have trouble reading on a device. So,

14:38

you know, I prefer, I don't know if it's

14:41

this organic, you know, kind of relationship

14:43

with paper, you know, I don't know if

14:45

you guys also have, you know, feel that

14:48

I like that. And I take loads of

14:50

notes, loads of notes, and I also

14:52

try to call her cold. So

14:54

yeah, I had colored pencils and, you know, I

14:56

was doing that and really helped me to kind of structure

15:00

everything. I don't know, it just works

15:02

best for me. I always printed all the scripts that

15:04

I work with. Marissa, as someone

15:06

who works as an audio professional, can

15:09

you talk about what it was like

15:11

working with another audio professional? Did you

15:13

find any difficulties of wanting to jump

15:16

in at points? I think honestly, it

15:18

made it significantly easier because I think

15:20

having someone to bounce ideas off of

15:23

helped a lot because there were definitely

15:25

times where like, I would have

15:27

an idea for something and then Marissa would go, I'm not

15:30

sure, like, do you think we can pull

15:32

that off? Or like, you know, maybe we

15:34

should try something else. And like, the

15:37

blend of our two ideas, I think, just made the

15:39

show like, so much better than if

15:41

I'd just done it on my own. Plus, that's

15:43

just, that's like so much to try and handle,

15:45

like basically doing all the audio editing by yourself.

15:47

So I think balancing it off each other was

15:49

really great. And like I said, we'd worked on

15:51

some other shows before at this point. So I

15:53

think we'd kind of like had a rhythm of

15:56

how we work together instead of just like being

15:58

completely new with how each other thinks. I

16:00

think in other instances it's been hard

16:02

to like pass off work like at first

16:04

I was like oh you know like I

16:06

hope this works out things like that but

16:08

like it's just it's been such a positive

16:10

experience and I think Melissa did just such

16:12

a good job on the soundscape here in

16:15

a way that I don't think I could

16:17

have pulled off. Thank you. So one of

16:19

the more prominent features in your show is

16:21

your narrator who I think is absolutely fantastic.

16:23

He knows how to make you feel chilled,

16:25

he knows how to make you feel warm.

16:27

I want to talk to

16:29

you about your use of narration because it's

16:31

sometimes a controversial topic in audio drama. Yeah.

16:34

You know our show Levites and Chronicles and Repscalco

16:36

Agency heavily uses narrators. I don't think we could

16:38

do a show without them. How did you decide

16:40

that you wanted to use a narrator? How did

16:42

you decide which parts you wanted to have the

16:45

narrator cover? Which parts you wanted to cover with

16:47

dialogue? Which parts you wanted to cover with sound

16:49

design? The reason I specifically decided to pick a

16:51

narrator for this show in particular like if I

16:54

decide to make more in the future I'm not

16:56

sure if they'll all have narrators but this

16:58

one in particular was so heavily

17:00

focused on emotion that it would

17:02

be really weird to like have

17:05

characters say all their thoughts out

17:07

loud. I think it would have

17:09

been pretty difficult to tell this story without having

17:11

a narrator. Yeah it was a really

17:14

interesting sort of experience especially the first

17:16

couple of episodes trying to

17:18

figure out when the narrator needed to step

17:20

in versus what was going to be more

17:23

of an organic conversation between Tanya and

17:25

Natalie for example and that was

17:27

something that was definitely I

17:29

like I said coming from a screenwriting background a little

17:31

tricky to sort of wrap my head around at first

17:33

but I think after the first couple scripts when I

17:35

fell into a rhythm it became sort of like a

17:37

second nature. I sort of set it up for myself

17:39

that if the characters wouldn't say it organically the narrator

17:41

is going to be the one who's going to say

17:43

it. So that was for me was the big sort

17:45

of like rule for myself and

17:48

also just like like Marissa said there's so

17:50

much emotion in these scripts that it

17:52

would have felt weird for someone just to all of

17:54

a sudden start narrating exactly what they were feeling at

17:56

any given moment. So you've completed one season

17:58

of the show. I know I've heard

18:01

you, Marissa, say you have plans for a season two.

18:04

What are your hopes for lives and leeches

18:06

going forward? Yeah. I think in

18:08

an ideal world, I'd

18:11

like to have three seasons. I'm

18:14

very set on the idea of stories

18:16

shouldn't drag on forever. So even though

18:18

I've really enjoyed making this, in my

18:20

head, I have story beats for three

18:22

seasons. And I don't think I want

18:24

to push past that. Trying to

18:26

think how to say this without being

18:29

spoilery, but kind of different emotional

18:31

beats per season, I'll say. So

18:33

definitely still having the same

18:36

main characters, but really

18:38

focusing on a specific emotion

18:40

each season where the season was

18:43

fear and anxiety. There are a couple

18:45

of emotions picked out for the subsequent

18:47

seasons. And then beyond lies

18:49

and leeches, what are your hopes for the future

18:51

of audio drama in general? I

18:53

think that's a heavy question. I

18:56

don't know, because I love seeing how

18:58

much audio fiction has grown, especially over

19:00

COVID. I really like that it's an

19:02

accessible medium that people would be able

19:05

to kind of jump into because

19:07

I was talking, I forget who I was

19:09

talking to about this, maybe Melissa, but if

19:12

this had been a film, it would have

19:14

been in the millions of dollars and trying

19:16

to jump into storytelling and having a multimillion

19:18

dollar budget is not, it would never

19:20

work. So I would really love to

19:23

see, I love how the industry

19:25

is growing. But I'd also love to see, I

19:28

guess more options for people that want

19:30

to step out of that self-creation, I

19:32

guess, and being able to build up

19:34

their teens. Because I know so many

19:36

audio dramas, it's like the actors and

19:38

then maybe one person doing stuff behind

19:40

the scenes. And I'd love for there

19:42

to be more financial options for people

19:44

to keep making these bigger

19:46

stories and bringing in more people. Because

19:49

I think that's the biggest struggle with audio dramas,

19:51

that it's pretty difficult to get funding on your

19:53

own. I'd love to

19:55

see people continue to create but also have

19:58

the level of resources. I

22:00

want to see more regional

22:02

things, more creativity, more different

22:04

aesthetic approaches. If

22:06

you read a book, you have words of course,

22:09

but it can be so

22:11

impactful on your imagination. Lots of times,

22:14

films don't provide that, for example, because

22:16

they are giving you all the information,

22:18

they are giving you the sound, they are giving

22:20

you the... I mean, it's only like basically the

22:22

texture and smell that is missing kind of thing

22:24

in films. But I think with books, the

22:26

experience sometimes is really just completely

22:29

surreal. And I think audio

22:31

drama could have also that

22:34

possibility. I'm very curious actually

22:36

to see how that will develop in the next

22:38

like 10, 15 years. And yeah, I mean, guys,

22:41

bring your sound designers early on and

22:43

start to develop ideas from there. Because

22:45

I also see that even from my

22:48

experience with films, for example, because previously

22:50

I worked with cinema, some things are

22:52

clearly written and there's no consideration for

22:54

actually the sounds. Nothing is on purpose,

22:57

of course. No one wants to sabotage their

22:59

own projects in that way. But if it would

23:01

be thought with a sound designer,

23:03

from the beginning, Randy Thom, he's

23:05

really a fantastic

23:08

sound designer. He's really... He's

23:10

been talking about this quite a lot. Start

23:13

to build from also like the sensorial perspective.

23:16

It's more of a curiosity to see.

23:18

I'm also seeing how I can push that

23:20

myself in a way, whenever I have these

23:23

opportunities. Well, it's been great talking to you three.

23:25

Before we get into the episode, why don't you tell everyone

23:27

where they can find you online in case they want to

23:29

hear more from you? Yeah. So, Liars

23:31

and Leeches was the first show that

23:34

I created through my production company. It's

23:36

called Hemlock Creek Productions. So

23:38

if you go onto the

23:40

Hemlock Creek website, it's hemlockcreek.com.

23:43

You can see a list to all of the other

23:46

works that we've done, things like that.

23:49

So you can just browse through and listen

23:51

to some of the other shows that we've

23:53

done sound design on. So I Think

23:56

that's probably my biggest plug. And I'm around on

23:58

the internet, not as much on the... There's

24:00

a media anymore but of people reach out see

24:02

this hormone that I'm a creek Let's say I'll

24:04

get, I'll get. Messages. From this and

24:06

I currently am am just eagerly awaiting

24:08

largely to season two. But and if

24:10

you want to reach out I am

24:12

on Blue Sky I believe my handle

24:15

his kids he thought rights because I

24:17

knew that platform and I deleted by

24:19

twitter so that's the one that just

24:21

forever lived in my head set of

24:23

my Blue Sky account. But I'm and

24:25

also Murtha a set of must put

24:28

anyone in touch with me that needs

24:30

that has like a burning question about

24:32

anything but yeah plus size one usually

24:34

working nowadays. Is yeah I have

24:36

a the web sites or that

24:38

is in all it needs to

24:40

be as a good care of

24:42

bizarre but it's there with the

24:44

many leagues for for things and

24:46

it's some of the serb on

24:49

Cern of com and as far

24:51

as social media on One Sweets

24:53

or hello is Melissa Bonsoir One

24:55

and. Yeah, I

24:57

also have a soundcloud you know we the same

24:59

same name sir. With lots of recordings from

25:01

from a lot of stuff. And them.

25:04

Yeah. But I'm Priya assessable. I guess I'm

25:06

I'm around. There must be many channels, but

25:08

I'm. A moron. their Whoa! Mercer

25:11

to J: Melissa said you so

25:13

much for joining us today And

25:15

without further ado, here is Liars

25:18

and Liters. Episode One. Supernatural.

25:33

Liars. Drama.

26:08

Why is he he? Ha!

26:22

Ha! Ha!

26:30

Ha I ha. Don't

26:42

you stare down a picture of her sister and

26:44

brother in law? Their faces beaming up

26:46

at her as a wave to the camera. Tanya

26:49

remember taking the picture of them a few years

26:51

ago. The day they moved into this

26:53

house. She. Wished she could go

26:56

back at of separate attacks. Again,

27:02

Oh you can just set it over

27:04

there for know. It a

27:06

bit over a month since Tanya moved into her

27:09

sister and brother in law's old home and she

27:11

was having trouble accepting that it was hers now.

27:14

Everywhere she looked, there was little reminders

27:16

that she was here. And

27:18

they were not. You

27:21

know place isn't half bad story, an

27:24

original flooring, high ceilings and that those

27:26

so one of those home renovation shows

27:28

would love to get their hands on

27:31

it. It's nice the way it is

27:33

is. Tammy engine had wanted to change

27:35

anything they would have. A

27:38

They would have wanted you to

27:40

be happy Tanya and I think

27:42

it's painting a room a different

27:44

color would make you happy. They

27:46

carry one thousand as yours now

27:48

after all. And that

27:50

was the hard part Tanya thought. tammy

27:53

and doom and left her the house baton

27:55

you never imagine she'd be living here she'd

27:57

always assumed tammy and gym would change their

27:59

will to leave the house to their future

28:01

children. Okay,

28:04

so bedroom and office are basically done.

28:06

All we've got left are the kitchen

28:08

and your clothes. Which, by

28:11

the way, you could definitely do

28:13

some Marie Kondo-ing of those. You've

28:15

got stuff in there I swear I saw you wear

28:17

ten years ago. Hey, my

28:19

college style was unparalleled. Yeah, back

28:21

in 2010, no one

28:24

wants low-rise jeans anymore. They're a

28:26

torture device designed to make people feel shitty about

28:28

themselves, no matter what TikTok is trying to tell

28:30

us. You have a TikTok? Absolutely

28:33

not, but I follow enough people on Twitter

28:35

who do, and they report back with what

28:37

the youths are saying. Besides, Liz

28:39

says that Gen Z is trying to make

28:41

Y2K fashion comeback. Ah, well if

28:44

Liz says so, it must be true.

28:46

Donex skeptical. She's the one you hired

28:48

for culture reporting. But

28:51

seriously, we need to update your clothes. Moving

28:54

is the perfect time to make a fresh start

28:56

with a new wardrobe. You donate a

28:58

few things, you buy a few more, suddenly you're a

29:00

whole new woman. I... I

29:03

don't know. Have

29:06

you decided what you're gonna do with

29:08

Tammy's stuff? The gyms

29:10

too? I'm not sure yet. I

29:13

was thinking about storing them or giving

29:15

them away, but I don't know.

29:17

Hey, hey, it's all good. Right

29:20

now, let's put the stuff in boxes, put them

29:22

in the attic, and you can take some time

29:24

to think about it. Let's

29:26

just focus on getting your stuff unpacked. The

29:29

makeover can wait too. Thanks. I

29:32

just... This is hard

29:34

enough as it is, you know. This

29:37

is Tammy and Jim's home. Their

29:39

room, their clothes, their furniture. You

29:43

know what I found? The first night

29:45

I stayed here. What? A

29:48

pregnancy test. Oh god.

29:51

Tammy had a couple in the medicine cabinet. They

29:54

wanted a baby so badly. They

29:58

Had it all worked out too. Two

30:01

girls they both wanted girls' gym

30:03

wanted to be a girl dad.

30:06

That's why they decided to buy this

30:08

place. They thought the your to be

30:10

perfect for kids is be a dog

30:13

to she says. Was.

30:15

She lost. She.

30:18

Was it. A

30:21

little miracles. Ah. It's

30:24

not three deaths than. That.

30:30

Is so close. And

30:36

I'm here with is. Tania

30:39

has always been grateful to Natalie in one

30:42

way or the other. At

30:44

the start of their friendship, it had been

30:46

how upfront and honest Natalie had been about

30:48

how much their paws had sucked. Over

30:50

the past years it varied from honesty

30:52

about outfits to support during late nights

30:54

and writing tough stories of work. After

30:57

Tammy in Gyms deaths. In

30:59

Italy had truly become Tony's rock

31:01

and every since toward helping her

31:03

survive every painful day. Natalie

31:06

had held on years she cried and had

31:08

been upfront with her about how she needed

31:10

to take better care of herself. Without.

31:13

Natalie. Tanya news

31:15

probably still be in her

31:17

apartment curled under the covers

31:19

and staring blankly at the

31:22

wall. It's It's such a

31:24

cliche, but I. Think

31:26

they're going to look through that door any

31:29

second. Then

31:32

delete the beach morning in their

31:34

house since to tell me since

31:36

that is. That they're

31:38

not coming back. As an atheist going

31:41

to have to spend the rest of

31:43

my life missing. Piece

31:45

that. You're

31:47

telling me. Thanks

31:51

for sending a saturday with my line.

31:53

He assets? Are you kidding? There's

31:55

no other one as I want to

31:57

spend time with. This society clearly weren't.

32:00

Going to unpack without a little

32:02

motivation. So what?

32:04

Runes. Next for today. just the

32:06

kitchen. How bad is it? Well

32:09

as had a lot of

32:11

take out lately but you know

32:13

this is to pile up.

32:15

Or a boy. The

32:18

idea of pushing forward and continuing

32:20

to work made time you feel

32:22

deeply exhausted all day. She been

32:24

putting your sister and brother in

32:26

law's things away and replacing them

32:28

with her own. She needed air

32:30

sea, needed to get out a.

32:32

And not to dump all of this and

32:34

passing on you and run. but maybe I

32:37

should just go and get something to make

32:39

for dinner. Wow and here I was thinking

32:41

the price for help and he move in

32:43

with beer and a pizza assess. Given that

32:45

we're not in our twenties, I figured my

32:48

name is like assassin past the woodwork. You

32:50

know I love that sauce. Any made it

32:52

forever. Pick up some frozen garlic bread and

32:54

Lp content within you. got it? As

33:04

time started a car she took

33:06

a moment before leaving for the

33:08

store. She stared at the house

33:11

Tammy and gym is left. Is

33:13

it been their pride and joy?

33:15

Six rubber turn dream home. Tanya

33:18

remembered or brother in law to I'm spending

33:20

so much time nit picking over the yard,

33:22

mowing the grass, trimming the bushes. it. it's

33:24

just the right. But

33:27

now the risks of grown pushes

33:30

us. In

34:18

the past Tanya had always sound

34:20

grocery shopping tedious, a bright artificial

34:23

light, The harm of the annoying

34:25

music playing over the loudspeakers and

34:27

the dance of navigate past other

34:29

shoppers was boring. It best. After

34:35

Tammy and Gyms deaths it it turned

34:37

into a new kind of nightmare at

34:39

least as was nearly empty time. You

34:41

knew she couldn't deal with a large

34:43

crowd today. Have you? Lost

34:49

her husband. Mean

34:52

a piece of. Shit.

34:56

Sorry but I think it's all

34:58

his time. She gripped her basket

35:00

tighter with sweaty hands, feeling or

35:03

heart race. He

35:08

just dropped the keys you

35:10

sign of course a loud

35:12

with startle or linux was

35:14

someone who. Didn't

35:19

make. Logic

35:21

make her emotions settle. She picks tammy

35:23

assume and how a few short banks

35:26

omelet took. Out.

35:37

The walls spilt. Pop.

35:44

Store. For house.

35:46

From over on his thirty. Six.

35:54

And we all miss. You

36:00

only have a couple more things to get. Come

36:03

on, you can make it a few more minutes without

36:06

needing your hand held. Oh,

36:08

I love you. Ma'am,

36:33

I can take you down here. Oh,

36:36

thank you. Good

36:39

afternoon. How's your day

36:41

been? Good. Um,

36:44

it's good. As

36:47

the cashier began ringing her up, Tanya

36:49

noticed him for the first time. A

36:52

man, tall and slender, but something

36:54

about him made Tanya deeply uneasy.

36:59

He was just standing there, frozen in the middle of the

37:01

aisle with no shopping cart or basket in sight. One

37:04

of his hands was shook deep into the pocket of

37:06

a large hooded trench coat. The

37:09

other hung by his side. A diamond-shaped tattoo inked

37:11

on the back of his hand. Despite

37:14

his face being obscured by the coots'

37:16

large hood, it

37:18

was clear that his attention was fixed

37:20

on Tanya. Is

37:22

the weather nice? It's a perfect

37:25

July day. Okay, not too hot,

37:27

but still, you know, nice and

37:29

summery. And it's

37:31

supposed to be like that all week. Do you

37:34

have anything fun planned? Just

37:36

dinner with a friend tonight. Aww,

37:39

that's nice. You

37:41

know, I was hoping to go into

37:43

the city soon, see a musical on

37:45

Broadway. Oh, have you

37:47

heard of that new one about like Emily Dickinson or

37:49

whatever? It's supposed to

37:51

be like really sad and like the entire

37:54

audience leaves sobbing, but I think

37:56

it sounds good. Sometimes

37:58

a really good day. The

40:01

man still hadn't moved, watching her as

40:03

if he was waiting for something. Thank

40:06

you for shopping at the Hometown Farmstand. Please

40:08

come again. Tanya grabbed her

40:10

groceries, grateful to not have to speak with

40:12

the cashier anymore, and looked at

40:14

the man one last time. The

40:18

man cocked his head to the side,

40:20

never so slightly. Shee! Without

40:24

warning, he began to stride purposely

40:26

down the aisle towards him. Heading

40:28

to move faster and faster with

40:30

every attempt, his hands starting to move

40:33

out of his pocket, ripping something Tanya couldn't

40:35

see. Tanya lost the battle

40:37

gift or panic. She started to run, hanging

40:39

for the excess fast as she could. Her

40:42

heart was pounding as she made it to her car,

40:44

almost dropping her bag and tumbling over her

40:46

knees. Oh shit! Oh

40:48

shit! Oh shit! Oh shit! Oh

40:51

shit! Oh shit! Oh

40:53

shit! Oh shit! Oh

40:55

shit! Oh shit! Oh shit! Oh

40:59

god! Oh god! Oh

41:01

god! Oh god! For

41:06

a few minutes, Tanya simply sobbed alone in

41:08

her car. In her

41:10

mind, she thought back to the reports from

41:12

the mall on that terrible, terrible day. How

41:15

the shooter had simply stood there, watching

41:17

people pass before he'd opened fire. How

41:19

it had all happened so quickly that

41:21

survivors struggled to recount what happened. Now

41:24

Tammy and Jim made the error of walking

41:27

out of the store at just the wrong

41:29

minute. As

41:31

she began to breathe again, shallow,

41:33

short breaths, she

41:35

noticed that there were no loud noises or screams

41:37

coming from the grocery store. No

41:40

one else had run outside. There were

41:42

no sirens. It was as if

41:44

nothing had happened, as if the

41:46

man had evaporated into thin air. There

41:49

was no threat. The

41:52

panic remained though. And for a moment,

41:54

Tanya considered calling Natalie again. Okay.

42:00

You can do this. Come

42:03

on, Tanya. It's

42:05

just a ten minute drive. Tanya

42:08

pulled out of the parking lot, putting

42:11

all of her attention into getting back as fast

42:13

as she could. She

42:15

tried to ignore how badly her hands were

42:18

still shaking. When

42:31

Tanya made it home, she sat in the driveway for a few

42:33

long minutes. The

42:36

Victorian facade of the house towered over her, feeling almost

42:38

imposing and unwelcome. Tanya's hands

42:40

gripped the steering wheel tightly. She

42:43

knew she had to go back inside and face Natalie, but

42:47

she didn't want to explain what had happened at the grocery store

42:49

just yet. Tanya was not

42:51

able to get out of the car. She

42:53

knew she had to go back inside and face

42:55

Natalie, but she didn't want

42:57

to explain what had happened at the grocery store just yet.

43:01

She wanted to curl up somewhere and rest,

43:03

but as much as she wanted it, she

43:05

couldn't let herself do that. She

43:08

had to put on her best and bravest

43:10

face and keep pushing forward. Hey,

43:16

you're back. Yep, I got everything I

43:18

needed. While you were gone, I got

43:20

the kitchen sort of organized. You

43:22

really need to buy plates that match. Also,

43:25

I managed to get all those coffee mugs unpacked

43:27

and stored away without breaking a single one. So,

43:30

your collection is safe. You

43:32

okay? It's nothing. I'm just

43:35

hungry, that's all. Let's get dinner going. Natalie

43:38

didn't press Tanya for details as they made

43:40

dinner. She instead focused on

43:42

light, easy topics like the new reality

43:45

show she'd just binged. However,

43:47

Tanya knew Natalie wasn't going to let her

43:50

go so easily. She rarely

43:52

let go of anything which made her

43:54

a keen journalist and a good

43:56

friend most of the time. It

43:59

also made her a keen journalist. that today, despite

44:01

Tanya's faint sense of calm, she

44:03

would try to investigate further. The

44:05

subject would come up again tonight. Tanya

44:08

was sure of it. The timing, as

44:10

it turned out, was in the middle

44:12

of dinner. So...

44:15

what happened at the store? I

44:17

don't really want to talk about it. You

44:19

look like you'd seen a ghost when you got home. And

44:23

since you won't talk to a therapist, it's time for

44:25

best friend therapy, which isn't as good as the real

44:27

thing, but it'll do in a pinch. So

44:30

what happened? I...

44:34

saw a man. Someone

44:38

you knew? No, he was...

44:40

I couldn't see his face.

44:43

He was tall, though. He had a trench

44:45

coat on with a hood pulled up over his

44:47

head. He was just

44:49

staring at me. The whole time

44:51

I was at the register, he was just... watching

44:54

me. Weird. And

44:57

then, when I was grabbing my bags, he just started

44:59

rushing down the aisle towards me, and

45:02

he looked like he was about to pull

45:04

something out of his pocket. What? Are you

45:06

serious? Yeah, and I just ran

45:08

to my car. I nearly forgot some

45:10

damn groceries. I couldn't breathe. I

45:12

couldn't think. I just sat

45:15

there, and I felt like I was... I

45:17

felt like there was a weight crushing

45:19

down on me. I realized

45:22

it's never going to stop, Nat.

45:25

I'm always going to be terrified of some

45:27

random guy just pulling out a gun wherever

45:30

I am, and... It sucks!

45:33

It sucks! And I hate it, and

45:35

I hate... I

45:37

just hate all of this. Tanya...

45:41

And it's... so fucking

45:44

embarrassing. I'm an adult,

45:46

you know? People go to the

45:48

grocery store all the time. Hey,

45:50

hey, it's not embarrassing. It's

45:52

totally normal for you to feel like that. Also, that guy

45:55

sounds like a creep who was trying to

45:58

freak you out, so really... I'm

46:00

pissed at him. What the hell am I

46:02

supposed to do next? I

46:04

lived in their house, in their town, and

46:06

every time I step out of the house,

46:08

I'm convinced I'm gonna die the

46:11

same way. Tanya, I've

46:14

said it a thousand times, but I think

46:16

you need a therapist. Because

46:18

there's only so much I can do. I know,

46:21

I'm serious. You

46:23

need someone who can help you with this, who's trained

46:26

to deal with heavy shit and who can guide

46:28

you in the right direction. Because

46:31

right now you're falling apart and I am

46:33

not about to see my best friend's life

46:35

get ruined. I am here

46:37

for you. I am going to help you get

46:39

the help you need, but you're going to have

46:41

to take that first step. I

46:43

just... I just... It's

46:47

so fucking hard. I

46:49

know, babe, I know. It's

46:51

never going to be easy, but it'll

46:54

get a little better someday. You

46:57

can be angry and sad and

46:59

miss them so fucking much, but I

47:02

promise you'll be able to start moving

47:04

forward someday. How

47:06

do we even find a therapist nowadays? And

47:08

like, how do you find someone

47:10

when you're going through all this? Just

47:13

walk into some therapist's office like, hi,

47:15

I'm Tanya and my sister and brother-in-law

47:17

were murdered in broad daylight in the

47:19

middle of them all. I'll

47:21

help. Promise

47:24

me that when we find a good fit

47:26

you'll go. I don't want you

47:28

to just wallow. You're

47:31

right. I hate it.

47:34

You're right. Yeah, I usually am.

47:38

Now come on, let's get all

47:40

this cleaned up. Hey,

47:43

I know I was going to take the train back to

47:45

the city tonight, but why don't I

47:47

take the couch instead? I don't want you

47:49

to stay here alone. You sure? Don't

47:52

you have a plant to water? You know

47:54

I've killed all my plants. I have like

47:56

a nasty poisonous thumb. Go

47:58

on, we can watch some dumb movie on this. Netflix to

48:00

unwind. That would be

48:03

amazing actually. Thank you. Seriously.

48:06

But um, you take

48:08

the bedroom? Oh come on, you

48:10

don't have to pull the self-sacrificing shtick with

48:12

me. I'll take the couch. No, no.

48:15

It's... I've been sleeping on

48:18

the couch ever since I came here. It

48:20

feels wrong to take their bed. I mean,

48:23

I tried on the first night and it just felt

48:26

like I was intruding. You know

48:28

what I'm going to say? I know. Monday

48:30

morning I'm going to make some calls. No.

48:33

On Monday morning I need your

48:35

latest article. You'll be focusing on

48:37

that, not babysitting me. I can

48:39

multitask! I'm fine! Seriously.

48:43

I'll do some research tomorrow. Thank

48:45

you, Suair. If you say so. But

48:48

before bed we were watching something really bad that

48:50

we can make fun of. Like

48:52

full-on Statler and Waldorf Heckeling.

48:55

Haha. That sounds perfect.

48:58

The rest of the evening was uneventful. Natalie

49:01

didn't talk about therapy and

49:03

Tanya was able to distract herself a

49:05

little with the ridiculous rom-com Natalie chose.

49:08

When it was time for bed, Natalie hugged

49:10

her tightly. It's gonna be okay. Promise.

49:14

I know. Let

49:18

me know if you need me at all tonight, but

49:20

for now I'm going to pass the fuck out. Moving

49:23

all your stuff today has me beat. As

49:47

Tanya settled onto the couch under her favorite

49:49

comforter, she noticed a picture of Tami and

49:51

Jim on the mantle. Usually

49:54

the picture brought her joy, but

49:56

today it felt strange. The

49:59

eyes... in the photograph were angled

50:01

towards her, and she felt

50:03

as though it was watching her, or rather,

50:06

she felt as though something was

50:08

watching her. After

50:10

an hour of tossing and turning, she finally decided

50:13

to get up and get a glass of water,

50:15

hoping it would settle her enough to fall asleep.

50:23

As she stood by the kitchen window, glass

50:26

cradled in her hands, Tanya peered down

50:28

the driveway that cut through the large

50:30

front yard. In the dim

50:32

street light at the end of the driveway, she

50:35

thought she saw the man from before. His

50:38

hands were deep in his pockets, and

50:41

the hood of his jacket once again covered his

50:43

face. Though he was farther away,

50:45

she knew his eyes were on the house,

50:48

and on her. What the fuck?

50:51

She blinked, setting the glass down and pressing her

50:53

face to the window to see if he

50:55

was really there. By the time

50:58

she'd done so, he'd vanished into the night,

51:00

leaving Tanya to wonder if he

51:03

was truly there at all. Gliers

51:44

and leeches, Nificent One, Unpacked

51:47

and Stored Away. Starring

51:49

Ryan Reed as the narrator, Kindle

51:51

Bird as Tanya, Newton

51:53

Newt Shottalcottie as Natalie, Tyler

51:56

Herchuk as the cashier, Jamie

51:58

Richard Stewart as the cashier. customer and

52:01

just look at the officer. Liars

52:15

and Leeches was produced by Hemlock Creek

52:17

Productions. The story was created

52:19

by Marissa Ewing and the script written

52:21

by K.J. Scott. The script editing provided

52:23

by Meg William. Dialogue

52:26

editing, mixing and mastering was done by Marissa

52:28

Ewing. Sound design by

52:30

Melissa Pond and you, Meg Egovitazy.

52:35

Additional recording assistance provided by Jordan

52:38

Alexander, tray maker of Music City

52:41

Studios. To learn more

52:43

about the show, cast

52:46

and crew, visit www.hemlockcreekprod.com.

52:49

Hemlock Creek, E-R-O-T dot

52:51

com. Thank

52:53

you for listening. We

52:56

will return next week. Hey

53:23

everyone, it's Robin again. I hope you enjoyed

53:25

the first episode of Liars and Leeches and

53:27

if you like the show, please subscribe to

53:29

it on Apple, Spotify or wherever you get

53:31

your podcasts. Now as

53:33

Christophe promised at the top of the show,

53:35

we are going to give you a preview

53:37

of the theme song to our next show,

53:39

The Invenios Expeditions. I really hope you

53:41

like it. Let us know what you

53:44

think. Hopefully, it gets you pumped to listen to the show

53:46

when we release it next spring. Music

53:58

by Hemlock Creek. www.hemlockcreekprod.com. A

54:00

smileer, a little

54:30

more than a year ago.

54:44

Monsters come in all shapes and sizes. They

54:46

can come from anywhere, the dark corners of

54:48

your hometown, a past meant to stay buried

54:50

and sometimes from within you.

54:54

If you, like me, are intrigued by all the

54:56

forms that monsters take, I think

54:58

you'll enjoy Undertow. Hi,

55:00

this is Fred Greenhulge, creator and host of

55:02

Undertow, a collection of horror podcasts that bring

55:04

you under the surface and into the weird

55:07

and the wicked. Each season

55:09

we start a new story set in a twisted version of

55:11

the great state of Maine where I

55:13

grew up fed by the headwaters of great horror masters

55:15

like Stephen King and Rick Howdela. In

55:18

Undertow we'll be confronting ghosts from the

55:20

past, battling werewolves in the present, wrangling

55:22

with cursed artifacts and, through it all,

55:24

doing our best not to forget our

55:26

humanity. Undertow is available

55:28

wherever you listen to podcasts or at realm.fm.

55:31

Stay alert out there and enjoy your time

55:34

in the Undertow.