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1:02

Greetings and salutations. You've

1:04

successfully arrived at the

1:06

Bloody Disgusting Network. The

1:09

passage of time wanna bring

1:11

you to something strange, unique,

1:14

and idiosyncratic. Have

1:16

a good time. Greetings.

1:19

Gonna some listeners and welcome to

1:21

the Losers Club Stephen King podcast

1:23

presented by Bloody Fm. I'm your

1:26

host Michael Monroeville Mall Rothman but

1:28

today I'm not. technically you're hosed,

1:30

I'm just doing little clip bumper

1:32

head Know you probably thinking oh.

1:35

Wait, A second, there's a clip bumper here

1:37

mean assuming an old episodes me you can

1:39

be it's locked from the pager On is

1:41

not a new episode. Well. Good.

1:44

News Bad News. Well the good news is that

1:46

it's a book episode, so those are your favorite.

1:48

The bad news is that this is a book

1:50

episode from Twenty Nineteen and you're probably wondering we

1:53

the second Twenty nine. Why?

1:55

would you release a book absurd from twenty

1:57

nineteen well we're we played a little a

1:59

fast Loosed back in our third

2:01

season back in 2019 because

2:03

if you recall Mike Flanagan's, Dr. Sleep at theaters

2:06

in the fall of 2019 and to celebrate we

2:08

jumped ahead. We

2:11

jumped ahead and we covered the

2:14

2013 novel Dr. Sleep and

2:16

so we recorded it. We

2:18

talked all about it. We did our full

2:21

on Losers Club book

2:23

episode for Dr. Sleep,

2:25

including myself, Randall Colburn,

2:28

Dan Caffrey. We assembled

2:31

at the overlook or not really the overlook. It's

2:33

kind of like that paddock. Well, not like the

2:35

Tyrannosaurus paddock, but a paddock. I think

2:37

you can look out and see the Colorado

2:39

Rockies. But anyway, we

2:42

assembled there back in 2019,

2:45

covered this book, which we all

2:47

have our own thoughts on and we

2:49

put it out there. And it was actually one of the last episodes,

2:52

one of the last episodes that we recorded for

2:54

that season, which was a really tough season for

2:57

our call because at the time we were juggling

2:59

both podcasts and work was happening and it

3:01

was just a wild time. So this actually

3:04

was I think the last episode of that

3:06

season. We took a break and came back

3:08

strong in 2020. So

3:11

if we sound a little tired, maybe that's

3:13

why. But it could all just be because

3:15

this is quite an epic book and there's a

3:17

lot to discuss. So we

3:19

thought because we are now

3:22

chronologically landing on Dr. Sleep,

3:24

we thought, well, let's dust it off. Let's

3:27

put it back in the feed. Well, it is in

3:29

the feed, but let's put it back in this feed

3:31

so it's in the proper place along the beam. So

3:34

if you've already listened to it, I apologize. We'll

3:37

be back with a new episode next week. We're

3:39

going to be covering Brian Fuller's Carrie from 2002

3:41

to keep it all Carrie in April for

3:44

the 50th anniversary. And look, you

3:46

just got like three book episodes. You got

3:48

Joyland, you got Win through the Keyhole, you

3:51

got a Carrie Twinner episode. Mr.

3:53

Mercedes is right around the corner. So

3:55

I think we're good. I think we're

3:58

pretty good. So if you haven't listened to this episode.

4:00

episode and you just read Dr. Sleep because you've been

4:02

following along on the beam, then

4:04

this is good news. So sit

4:06

back, enjoy this episode, and I'll

4:10

be seeing you over long days and

4:12

plow the night. cops

4:42

and listeners, and welcome yet again to

4:44

the Losers Club, a Stephen King podcast.

4:46

My name is Rockin' Randall Colburn, and

4:48

boy, do we have an episode for

4:50

you. Today, we are here to talk

4:53

about Stephen King's 2013 novel.

4:57

It's so weird to be in the

4:59

2000s because we usually do these chronologically,

5:01

but as we have announced in previous

5:03

episodes, we are doing Dr. Sleep to

5:05

coincide with the movie's release. So

5:08

we are jumping ahead in time. It's sort of a

5:10

little experiment we're doing. We found a door in the

5:12

beach and we walked through it. It's true, which is

5:15

relevant because our last book was The Wastelands, and our

5:17

next book I believe is Needful Things. Who

5:19

would you be in the Dark Tower? I think I'm

5:21

a... Baby, look at me. I'm an Eddie Dean. I'm an Eddie

5:23

Dean author. I'm kind of a dashing... We could be

5:25

like doppelgangers. We could be double Deans. I

5:27

think I'm Roland, for sure. Yeah, definitely Roland. We're

5:29

good at shooting things. Yeah. Speaking

5:32

of... I'd be like, oh, wait. So

5:34

I'm Rockin' Randall Colburn. Who's sitting across from me?

5:37

This is Michael Crowdaddy Rothman. I had

5:39

to go with that. If

5:42

they were ones that are the ones

5:44

where there's no alliteration or anything, and

5:46

no meaning. No, no meaning whatsoever. Although

5:48

I do like to be a daddy. No, I'm just kidding. You

5:51

are a bit of a daddy. Yeah. You're

5:53

joining us from across the country via

5:55

telephone. Or the shiny. I

6:00

wrote an article on Dr. Sleep for AV

6:02

Club and I still feel like I called

6:04

him Danny through the

6:13

whole thing. I'm not past it. Well,

6:16

it's a shame that he doesn't have kids in this novel

6:18

because then he could be called Daddy Danny. Awful. We're

6:22

going to be going through

6:24

Dr. Sleep today, but before

6:26

we get started, I think

6:28

a couple of announcements. One,

6:31

and this one hurts a little bit, but

6:33

I think for the sake of our sanity,

6:35

for the sake of the holidays, and for

6:37

the sake of the pod, it's

6:40

best for us to tell you that this

6:42

will very likely be the

6:45

last episode of 2019. There's

6:48

a slim chance we might pop in to record

6:50

something else depending on if

6:52

any big news breaks or any other

6:54

big things happen, but I think that

6:58

we're in the midst of a lot of work

7:00

right now and we're figuring out

7:02

the fabric of the podcast future

7:04

and we need a little time to do

7:06

that. As you've noticed,

7:09

we've been tapering off episodes a little bit. We've

7:11

been doing some two weeks at a time and

7:13

just easing ourselves into the holidays, easing ourselves

7:15

into the next step of the podcast, the

7:17

next chapter, you might say. My chapter, indeed.

7:20

Didn't you call the first couple seasons? Yes,

7:24

we call them seasons. It's funny because there's

7:26

no difference or anything. There really isn't, although

7:28

we do try to earmark each year as

7:31

when the first episode of each year, with the

7:33

exception of the actual first year that we did

7:35

this podcast, we try to make it seem like

7:37

there's a premiere of sorts. In

7:40

that case, this would be the finale. Yeah. Although

7:43

maybe this is that Buffy season where

7:45

it's kind of a finale, but it was only

7:47

a finale because they pulled an episode because I

7:49

think of Columbine or something. Anyway, we don't need

7:51

to go to that road. Well,

7:54

let me just say that we're still going to be active

7:56

on our socials. We're still going to be present on Twitter.

8:00

other places that you engage with us. So stay tuned, start

8:02

reading Needful Things because we're going to be jumping into that

8:04

early next year and that's a long one. So you're going

8:06

to want to be doing that. So yeah, we just want

8:08

to give you guys that heads up and thank you so

8:10

much for all of the listening you've been doing. And the

8:12

nice thing about us taking a break is you can catch

8:14

up on some old episodes. Yeah, there's a ton of old

8:16

episodes and they're all back in the feed. They're all back

8:18

in the feed. All the ones that we remastered. There's one

8:21

project that we did this year. It was

8:23

making sure they're all cleaned. That's true.

8:25

Clean them up. Streamlining

8:27

them in some ways, make them just sound good

8:29

for y'all because man, those early ones, they sound

8:32

great now. They do. Yeah. I mean, they're still

8:34

a little rough. They sound like we're in a

8:36

can. Yeah, that's by your standards. Your standards are

8:38

very high. For me, I'm just kind of like,

8:40

yeah, it sounds fine. I can understand people. Yeah,

8:42

I'm just happy to have them, you know? I'm

8:45

about to get a battery and the companion

8:47

ship. Max said, we posted about our Salem

8:49

slot and Max said just like best episode

8:52

ever or something. It was

8:54

very emo. It was like, this is a great

8:56

moment of the podcast. I know. That's why I replied

8:58

with WTF. Yeah.

9:01

What is he, gory with chance? He's

9:03

like sitting in his car on the outskirts

9:05

of town just being like, God, I remember

9:07

when we recorded Salem's lot. It

9:09

wasn't good at it. I do remember it.

9:11

It wasn't good at it. It is listeners,

9:14

the posts still up on Facebook, please go

9:16

see our hilarious exchange. Yeah, it was our

9:18

hilarious exchange. It's actually very sentimental and nice,

9:21

but you know, because you're like, I do

9:23

remember those. I do. Well, it

9:25

was like he immediately texted me after I replied

9:27

on Facebook and we were laughing. Then we were

9:29

just doing like a bit throughout the rest of

9:31

it. Well, you get the bits on the social.

9:33

Yeah, we still got the bits, the bits for

9:35

days. I know that's your guys's favorite part of

9:37

the pod. Yeah, you love it more than

9:39

Stephen King. It's true. It's true. So

9:42

before we get started, I think just sort of a fun way

9:44

to close out the year and just to

9:47

add a little bit of extra, a little

9:49

Susanne flair to this episode. We

9:52

both, because I think this is interesting. It's Monday

9:54

that we're recording this November, what,

9:56

18th? I think the 18th. Yeah. And

9:58

we both, both of. AV Club where

10:01

I work and Constant Sound where you work. We

10:03

both published our top 100 movies of the

10:05

decade today which was some cool

10:08

lists and We shared the

10:10

same number one which was Mad Max Fury Road.

10:12

I'd love that And

10:16

then I'd like to hear from you Maybe

10:20

some films that you really fought for to get higher and

10:23

I'll do the same and then Dan can sort

10:25

of chime in with Some movies that he thinks

10:27

should be on these lists. They even whether they

10:29

are aren't Dan I'm not asking you like memorize

10:32

our list. So, uh, I guess I'll start with

10:34

you What movies were you really writing for in terms

10:36

of being the best of the decade? Well, I was

10:38

such a like lame ass because there are a lot

10:40

of like, you know whimsical

10:42

and more obvious choices that

10:44

I kind of had to fight for just because for

10:46

you know, populist notions but also because I really love

10:48

them like I kind of got

10:50

scoffed a little bit with La La Land because

10:53

I actually love that movie and I think it's

10:55

just a phenomenal film and a pretty good example

10:57

of how Damien Chazelle is just a phenomenal filmmaker.

10:59

Mm-hmm So I had to kind

11:01

of fight for that one and that was kind of one that was always

11:03

in contention of like well We kind of want to

11:05

add that once maybe we take out, you know, La

11:07

La Land Interesting. What number did it end up at?

11:09

It's like I think somewhere in the 50s or something

11:12

like that Yeah, that's where it was on our list.

11:14

I did really rally high to get Silver Linings Playbook

11:16

up there, which is my personal Number

11:18

one favorite movie of the decade. Whoa. Yeah, that's

11:21

I did really want the social network to be

11:23

number one because I think It's a little more

11:25

emblematic of the decade Yeah, but I'm totally happy

11:27

with Mad Max Fury Road because look I mean

11:29

that movie is fucking phenomenal and It's got a

11:31

little bit of everything. I've said phenomenal like three

11:33

times already, but I love Fury Road

11:36

I'm very glad it's on there. We are definitely a

11:38

genre leaning site So it makes more sense, but I

11:40

thought we had some really cool unique pics in there

11:42

I absolutely loved that we had hereditary in the top

11:44

five. Nice So that was cool and we need to

11:47

talk about Kevin was also in the top five. That's

11:49

wild and that's a unique pick Yeah, that is a

11:51

unique pic. I dig that you know, so but what

11:53

about you? What did you have to fight for? Uh,

11:55

I My number one

11:57

was under the skin Because

12:00

I just think it's incredibly striking and it's a movie

12:02

I haven't stopped thinking about yeah since it came out

12:04

and it kind of embodies a lot of what I

12:06

really like which is I like movies

12:09

that don't like that can Use

12:12

non actors or real footage.

12:14

Yeah, like real behaviors in

12:17

ways That kind of

12:19

commands a certain authenticity And

12:21

that's why another one of my favorite movies

12:23

the year Trey Edward Schultz is Crecia I

12:26

love Crecia didn't make the list but in

12:28

our list of Like what we

12:30

wanted to see on that did make it on I

12:32

wrote about Crecia and Trey Edward Schultz is about to

12:34

be a big Deal, he's probably gonna be at the

12:36

Oscars this year for waves. Really? Yeah. Oh, yeah Well,

12:39

well we I guess we were the exception because we

12:42

gave it his C-plus on our site

12:44

Really but here's the irony we actually

12:46

talked to Trey I would show about

12:48

Crecia for a Thanksgiving feature because that

12:51

movie. Yeah, like a Thanksgiving classic With

12:54

Thanksgiving nightmare That's well, I

12:56

would say it's probably if not the scariest one

12:58

of the scariest movies I saw a decade and

13:00

it's not even a horror No, it's not that's

13:02

what I love about it It's hard invasive family

13:05

like that dread of like being with family when

13:07

there is something horribly wrong Yeah, you

13:09

know, it's funny is that so I didn't I totally forgot

13:11

about this because it's been a while since I've seen it And

13:14

it's only 80 minutes. But in that

13:16

80 minutes Clinton Worthington friend of the

13:18

pot and also Contributor for

13:20

consequence of sound and editor of the

13:22

spool. He pointed out that in

13:25

the movie I guess that there is

13:27

a sequence where he writes himself into the the

13:30

film and In

13:32

the mother the grandmother's like, you know, you're gonna be

13:34

a great filmmaker. Oh, yeah. Yeah. Yeah Yeah,

13:37

no, I remember that made me laugh a little bit

13:40

Yeah, but back then he wasn't like super famous yet.

13:42

So I remember being like, oh, that's kind of cute

13:44

That that one South by Southwest. Yeah Yeah,

13:47

I feel like waves is gonna have some real

13:49

Oscar legs Yeah based on and we AV Club

13:51

didn't even give it it like that good of

13:53

a yeah Like doubt at AV Club was basically

13:55

like it's good. Yeah, I'm not as wild

13:57

about it as everyone else Yeah, like I don't know I

14:00

don't think our official reviews come out yet. His festival review,

14:02

that's what he's saying. Oh yeah, because you guys do that

14:04

blur, but then everything. Yeah, yeah. And so what else did

14:06

I fight for? I mean, I fought for Green Room to

14:08

be really high. Oh, me too. Yeah, yeah, yeah. But

14:10

I think it made it, I think it's in the 30s on our list, which

14:12

I'm fine with. I was in the top 20. I think it's number 18. Nice.

14:16

And then Hereditary 2 I fought for. That

14:18

is still on the list. I think it's

14:20

like in the 40s maybe. But yeah, I

14:22

love Hereditary. And then, yeah, and then- And

14:24

you guys have some hard write-ups though. Yeah,

14:26

man, the ones I had to write up broke my brain because

14:28

I had to write up Under

14:32

the Skin, which is, I love it, but it's hard

14:34

to write about. And then Upstream

14:36

Color, which is like Shane Caruth's 2013

14:38

Mindfuck. It's really good. Which

14:41

is not, it's one thing to write about that film, but

14:43

it's another to write about it in what, 100 words? Yeah.

14:45

Because I only had 150 words for it. And then

14:48

I did First Reformed, another movie that I absolutely adore.

14:50

I wanted that in the top 30, but it didn't

14:52

end up- Yeah, that was in our, I think 23

14:54

on our list. And then I wrote up

14:56

Mustang from 2016- I wasn't gonna write up,

14:58

I wrote it to them. Yeah, I reviewed

15:01

that for Consequence of Sound and I adore

15:03

that movie. It's a Turkish film about six

15:05

sisters and really moving. It's one

15:07

of the few more weepier experiences I've had the theater

15:09

over the last couple of years. And

15:11

the other one I fought for that it

15:13

barely made it, it was number 98 on

15:15

our list, was the comedy starring Tim Heidecker.

15:17

Oh yeah. Rick Alverson's movie. I still absolutely

15:20

adore that movie. I wish it was higher,

15:22

so. Yeah, there's definitely some

15:24

tougher comedies and tougher films that

15:26

I would have loved to have seen. I really

15:28

wanted to see Eyes of My Mother in there, just

15:31

because, but it's in our horror list, which by the

15:33

time this drops this episode, which is gonna be like

15:35

Thursday or Friday, God willing, our

15:38

horror list will have published. And I worked on it with

15:40

Megan Navarro, leaning

15:42

on several reviews that you wrote about on the site because you used

15:44

to cover the horror beat with us. So great

15:46

top 25, I'm really excited about it. Can't wait to

15:49

see that. I wish we could do something like that.

15:51

Yeah, it's a lot of fun, but I do wish

15:53

we were able to kind of put a few more

15:55

horrors up like films, but I was happy that both

15:57

of Ari Aster's films are in our top

15:59

ones. in our 100. So that was neat.

16:02

Yeah, that's awesome. Yeah, let's hear from Dan

16:04

Haffery. Taking some of the good ones. I

16:07

was going to say Green Room. I would

16:09

put Blue Room in there too. I think

16:11

both movies are great. I'm guessing

16:13

it's follow. I'm sorry, I haven't made my way

16:15

through all of either list yet. I'm guessing it

16:17

follows is probably on there. It's not in our

16:20

top 100. It's not? No.

16:23

Oh wow. Really? Wow. It's

16:25

in the 40s in ours. It's in our top 25 for...

16:27

I honestly think that third act, it

16:29

just... I wrote about it today for the

16:31

horror thing. I said

16:34

third act aside, I still

16:36

think that final shot rebounds big

16:38

time. Right. And it still is

16:41

the peripheral horror alone and just the premise

16:43

alone warrants its inclusion. But

16:46

yeah, it didn't make it. I was going to say, because

16:48

I was going to say, yeah, third act is rough but

16:50

the final shot redeems it. It's so good. Yeah, it's

16:52

perfect. I rewatched it. I still

16:55

love it. I

16:58

don't know, it just came out this year and so maybe

17:00

I'm thinking of it too fondly but I

17:02

love her smell. I think it's such a different

17:04

kind of... That's on our list. That's in our top 100. Oh

17:07

man, really? Yeah, that's from your review actually.

17:09

I know, yeah. I remember I reviewed it

17:12

very highly for COS and you never know

17:14

if it's going to soldier through all the

17:16

way until the end. I

17:18

think it's in my top three of the year. Yeah,

17:20

that was great. I haven't made my list yet but...

17:22

It feels like such an accurate rock biopic even though

17:25

it's not a biopic which is super

17:27

cool. Yeah, a big yes to Under the

17:29

Skin. I think that's supremely under great. And

17:32

also too, I mean, just both sides

17:35

having Mad Max for your Road number one,

17:37

like a high, high cosign for that just

17:39

because it's weird because that

17:41

seems like a movie that would

17:43

be really genre and that not a ton of people would like.

17:45

But I feel like everyone likes it and

17:48

I mean that in a good way. I

17:50

think it somehow feels very bold but also very

17:52

ubiquitous which I think is a really tough thing

17:54

to do. And it's one of those rare films

17:56

where it actually could stand on the soapbox without

17:59

actually looking at it. The like a standing

18:01

on the so months in and now it's

18:03

those we're talking about it for I'm this

18:05

week's felon and content episode and I had

18:07

said well you know if he's using the

18:09

old I P for Mad Max like what

18:12

he did really differently because obviously roadway or

18:14

has the chase and has the developments in

18:16

it's in obviously there's of more a far

18:18

more I'm Seven and President sets in fury

18:20

road and ensued greater extent than any of

18:23

the other of you know. And

18:25

Trees including Beyond Standard how Much literally

18:27

stars Tina Turner and by I think

18:29

that when it comes in with so

18:32

much conviction and and with with it's

18:34

statements and it's messages in ways that

18:36

the previous entries didn't which is why

18:39

thing A warranted it's combat the I'm

18:41

In ways by it's man. Yeah, they

18:43

are as varied as so many fucking

18:45

huge ambitious films that came out and

18:48

this past decade of that level they

18:50

are you had yeah, makers that are

18:52

just like jumping over incredible hurdles like

18:55

I'm. Yeah, I'd write about Bird the revenue which

18:57

I still love in a lot of people really

18:59

don't At Alec Jeffreys Milan, where would you think

19:01

about it? You never saw Ninety Two. Oh wow

19:03

yeah that's it. It's is the seems have a

19:05

thing where you just like had a sucker they

19:07

make this movie who directed it again it's by

19:09

our our hundred in or it is right right

19:11

on the right reasons and I have a question

19:13

on have an answer for this because I wasn't.

19:15

Directly. And I haven't like really scoured the

19:17

list and I wasn't and during I wasn't as involved

19:20

as you are in the Korea down of the list.

19:22

Is there a movie out there that you wish wasn't

19:24

on them? Oh yeah what movie

19:26

Say it non the come on now

19:28

is going to piss off you know

19:31

as his own isn't Now that that

19:33

there is there a few that I

19:35

I was. Kind. Of been like but

19:37

the same thing is like, you know? I'm sure other

19:39

people would say the same vote the ones I five

19:41

for for sharing because I tend to lean more towards

19:43

John Ryan. You know,

19:46

Now that said the stuff. So we dance, just

19:48

make a rampart. just. as

19:51

i wish i was a little bit better

19:53

but if i ever ever is it ran

19:55

fire because we're running joke about the woody

19:58

harrelson what is like twenties thirties I

20:00

fought for it but... It's

20:03

a long joke. We'll tell you in person

20:05

sometime, but I think it's time to move on. Look

20:08

up Woody Harrelson's Reddit AMA. You'll

20:11

understand why we always keep it about Rampart.

20:13

Oh god, it's so bad. I

20:15

think it's time to put on

20:17

our night caps and hop into Dr.

20:20

Sleep. And head up to Sidewinder. To

20:22

Sidewinder. Ooh, chilly. I

20:24

don't suppose they told you anything in Denver

20:26

about the tragedy we had up here during

20:28

the winter of I

20:31

don't believe they did. So

20:34

where do we begin with Dr. Sleep which

20:37

is a sequel to what book? Salem's

20:40

Lot. No, I just took it. The Shining.

20:43

The Shining baby. Yeah. Mike

20:45

you took some copious notes about the history

20:47

of it and I'm going to

20:49

also bring them up and we can sort of

20:51

tag team this history a little bit and Dan

20:53

why don't you chime in wherever you know. Well

20:55

first off I wanted to ask though because I

20:58

think I'm the only one that read this first

21:00

time, right? I'm the only first- This is my

21:02

first time. No, no, no, I'm sorry. My second

21:04

time. So second time for you. Yeah, I took

21:06

my second time off of it. Wow,

21:08

so you have some two timers here and a couple more time here. Alright,

21:10

fun. A couple better, huh? And

21:13

we've all seen the movie. And we've all seen the movie. And this

21:15

is what's kind of weird also that I was thinking about today. Well,

21:19

walking around Chicago is that I

21:23

was reading this while the film's coming out.

21:25

I'm reporting about the film. Yeah. I

21:28

went to go see the film. I hadn't actually finished the book yet

21:30

at that point. I still had about 150 pages left to go. And

21:35

that was very weird to do that and cover it

21:37

on this podcast and especially do the reverse. Yeah. Because

21:39

we've already talked about the film. You already know our

21:41

thoughts about the film in the past episode. Yeah. So

21:44

I don't know. It was very odd to

21:46

be doing it this way because it felt very unorthodox.

21:49

Sure, yeah. So you knew, but

21:51

you still were surprised in some ways

21:53

by the ending because the ending of the book and

21:55

the movie are so different. It was very weird. It

21:57

was almost like a deconstructionist read in a weird way.

22:00

Yeah, so yeah that that was kind of

22:02

my Introduction to it

22:04

because it was kind of weird is that like,

22:06

you know I had heard for years from you

22:08

guys that it was awful and I came in

22:11

with like the lowest expectation I don't remember saying

22:13

it was awful. I feel like Justin was the

22:15

one who always talked about how bad it was

22:17

and I will say Yeah,

22:20

I will say I enjoyed it more on

22:22

this read. Okay, I Did

22:24

think also reading it because I reread it pretty

22:27

close to seeing the movie also and I agree

22:29

with you Mike that I did make it better

22:31

for me because I know you all said the

22:33

movie episode already, but um, I Really?

22:36

It wasn't my favorite same King

22:38

movie, but I did like it a lot as

22:40

an adaptation I think it made me appreciate the

22:42

the groundwork he had laid for all the Alcoholism

22:45

shining stuff which for me is the

22:48

stronger part of the novel than other

22:50

than the whole Part of

22:52

the book was an easier read this

22:54

first time around knowing what was what

22:56

I was getting into Seeing

22:59

some good really drawn out of it through the

23:01

film right? But hey, I gotta say I miss

23:04

the overlook You're

23:07

what are you quoting like that I

23:11

miss the munchkins Sorry,

23:14

I knew you were doing something you gave me

23:16

the most knowing look after that I was like

23:18

I know you the reference a total smarmy scumbag

23:21

look that let me but I know I actually

23:23

think it's good that you brought up The general

23:25

concept of reading it like Dan. When did you

23:27

first read it? Right

23:29

when he came out. I remember about the copy

23:31

have first dish My one

23:33

of my sisters in law got it for me as

23:35

a Christmas present. So that had have been it came

23:38

out in 2013, right? Let's

23:43

see Yeah 2013 which

23:45

means I've probably read it that December

23:47

or in January 2014 that's the only

23:49

thing about Yeah, Sam. I

23:51

feel like I read it in early 2014. If

23:54

not, actually, you know what like what was the day it came out

23:56

again? It

23:59

was published on September

24:01

24th, 2013. Yeah,

24:04

it's actually funny you say that because I remember going

24:06

to the music box of horrors that year and getting

24:08

back, getting home at like three in the morning and

24:10

I was so hyped up that I

24:12

couldn't sleep and I remember reading Dr. Sleep. So

24:14

I owned it by that point, which was in

24:17

mid October, but I don't think I finished it

24:19

until like January because it was a slow read.

24:21

You know what's weird also is that I started

24:23

this book because I couldn't sleep and

24:25

I was up at like four in the morning and just

24:28

started reading it in the dark. Oh

24:30

wow, with like a little light on. And the weird for

24:32

me is I read the book and

24:34

I fell asleep from what I'm kidding. What

24:37

a great way to start it. I read it on my

24:39

Kindle. I wish I had a cool first edition like you

24:41

Dan, but I read it on my boring Kindle. It was

24:43

actually one of the first books I ever bought at my

24:45

Kindle because my Kindle was brand spanking new

24:48

back then. I don't

24:50

subscribe to Kindle because I believe in

24:52

the power of paper. And

24:54

you do have your little copy with you. I do have my copy, I

24:56

have my dog ears. What do we call it? Oh,

24:59

the Pocket Books Edition. All right. Yeah, well mine

25:01

actually fell apart when I was traveling to New

25:03

York. So I had to tape it up. So

25:05

this is actually super glued and taped. Oh wow.

25:08

Yeah. Well that didn't you, didn't you

25:10

used to do a thing where it was eight

25:12

when you like hanging out pages as you read

25:14

it. Did you throw yourself away? Because I was

25:16

carrying it like that just happened. So when I

25:19

was reading it, I happened to be traveling nonstop

25:21

around that time and it's a fucking huge book

25:23

and I didn't wanna travel around with it. So

25:25

like I'd already finished like half of it. So

25:27

I'm literally carrying around half of a book that I've

25:29

already finished. So I just ripped it in half. So

25:31

funny. And carried around this paperback with me. So

25:34

everywhere I'd go, if I was in coffee

25:36

shops or in libraries,

25:39

I'm just giving you an example because I don't really hang out

25:41

in libraries. But if I was

25:43

there, I would just rip out the pages and then find

25:45

out if garbage can throw them away. So people probably thought

25:47

it was like some fucking nylon. Yeah, you look like a

25:50

lunatic doing that. That's really funny. Yeah,

25:52

so yeah, my first read was kind of

25:54

labored but I think I remember I

25:57

read it. I don't think I, like, I

25:59

don't feel like I gave it a good chance when I

26:01

first read it. I was really snotty about it because

26:03

I felt so burned. And this might be a good,

26:05

you know, kind of a good way into it, but

26:07

we still gonna talk about the history, but like, you

26:10

know, I feel like it starts so strong.

26:12

I'm like so into the beginning of that

26:14

book. Like I love- The first

26:16

like 100 pages almost. Like it's not for

26:19

a while. Yeah, and I remember I like

26:21

was really enjoying it. And then once we

26:23

got to the vampires and once it started

26:25

focusing on Abra, like in her family and

26:28

especially her great grandma, I

26:30

was like, I don't like this at all. You know what it's kind

26:32

of similar to? I feel like

26:35

with the way the promotion behind this book was

26:37

like, it's very similar to the episode one, the Phantom

26:40

Menace. Yeah. Because when this book was

26:42

first announced, it was like, oh, this is the sequel to

26:44

The Shining, which obviously Ted's turned. And

26:46

he slowly rolled out and teased it through like,

26:48

you know, little excerpts on that would be on

26:50

like Entertainment Weekly. And the Entertainment Weekly had the

26:52

opening with, you know, obviously Mrs. Menace, he was

26:55

in the, you know, the bathtub and everything. And

26:57

so it was like, holy shit, this is terrifying. It

27:00

had nothing like to mention of like the True Knot and all this

27:02

other energy vampire stuff. So it was a little bit

27:04

like the actual teaser for Phantom Menace, which where it

27:06

was like, you know, it teased just a little details

27:08

to bring you back into Star Wars. And then you

27:10

actually saw the movie and you're like, who the fuck

27:12

are Gungans? What are the hours, Jar Jar Binks? Why

27:16

the hell is, why are we supposed to believe

27:18

that there are two different Natalie Portman characters? What

27:20

the hell is going on? So I feel

27:22

like that might've been sort

27:25

of the case with this because I mean, let's

27:27

be honest, like The Shining is arguably

27:29

his biggest book of all time. I mean,

27:31

even over, you know, The Stand,

27:34

even over Carrie, I would imagine just because of

27:36

what Stanley Kubrick's movie did for it.

27:38

Also just making it into the popular consciousness. So

27:40

like to follow that story up, I think the

27:42

hype is always going to be, you know, bigger

27:44

than what he was ever going to be able

27:46

to meet. You know,

27:49

just from initial inferences that I can say, I

27:51

do applaud the idea that this is kind of

27:53

a different type of story. And obviously we'll go

27:55

into it from there. Yeah, we'll talk more about

27:57

it later. And I guess like, like when And

28:00

you say that it makes me want to expound on that

28:02

because that's the interesting idea that we have here. And

28:05

I think that also ties in with our critiques

28:07

of the movie in a lot of ways, in

28:10

good and bad ways. But

28:12

let's talk about

28:14

the history of it. Oh,

28:17

yeah. For those that haven't

28:19

read the book and are listening to

28:22

our fucking podcast, let's do

28:24

our old tradition of this synopsis. Yes,

28:26

I forgot about the old tradition. Look, it's been a

28:28

while since we've done a book episode. At least us.

28:31

Because I wasn't on the Dark Tower episode.

28:34

And I think the previous book episode I

28:36

was on was Secret Window. So why don't

28:39

you read the synopsis on your... What do you

28:41

got? I got the... It's got

28:43

a nice little kangaroo. The pocket

28:45

books, fiction, addiction. Addiction. I

28:48

know one person has addiction in this story. And

28:52

Daniel Torrance. So here we go. The

28:54

Overlook Hotel is where his

28:56

boyhood gift for Shane opened

28:59

a door to hell. Dan

29:01

Torrance is a man now. But Ghosts

29:03

of the Overlook and his father's legacy

29:05

of alcoholism and violence kept them drifting

29:07

for decades. Now sustained by

29:10

an AA community in a New Hampshire

29:12

town, Dan comforts the dying at

29:14

a nursing home where they call him Dr. Sleep.

29:16

That's the title of the book. But

29:19

before his remnant power can fade forever,

29:21

Dan meets 12-year-old Abra Stone whose spectacular

29:23

gift pulls him into an epic war

29:25

with an otherworldly tribe that reignites. Why

29:29

are you laughing? Because it sounds ridiculous when

29:31

you read this. It

29:33

sounds like this shiny myth becomes nothing in

29:35

that title. Whose

29:37

spectacular gift pulls... Let's just read

29:40

this sentence. Whose spectacular gift pulls

29:42

him into an epic war with

29:44

an otherworldly tribe that

29:46

reignites Dan's own demons and summons

29:48

him to battle for the young

29:50

girl's soul and survival. This

29:52

reads like a Larry Cohen synopsis. Like

29:55

hilarious. Anyway, that's my synopsis.

29:57

Sorry for making fun of it. Dan, you have a first edition. is

30:00

the one Mike just read. Here, let's

30:02

see. I'll search for otherworldly tribe. Oh,

30:05

actually, wait. Hold on. Listen, for a second.

30:09

On highways across America, a tribe

30:11

of people called the True Knot

30:14

traveled in search of sustenance. They

30:16

look harmless, mostly old, lots of

30:18

polyester, and married to their RVs,

30:20

which sounds great. But

30:23

as Dan Torrance

30:25

knows and spunky 12-year-old Abra Stone

30:27

learns, the True Knot are quasi-immortal,

30:29

living off this word still

30:31

makes me laugh, living off the steam that children

30:34

with the Shining produce when they're slowly tortured to

30:36

death. Honored by the inhabitants of the

30:38

Overlook Hotel, where he spent one horrific childhood

30:40

year, Dan has been drifting for decades,

30:43

desperate to shed his father's legacy of

30:45

despair, alcoholism, and violence. Finally,

30:47

he settles in a New Hampshire town, an

30:49

AA community that sustains him, and a job

30:51

in a nursing home where his remnant, shining

30:54

power provides a crucial finder comfort to the

30:56

dying. Aided by a pressured cat, he becomes

30:58

Dr. Sleep. I want the

31:00

ad-libbed. They're making that sound like it's more

31:02

important than it really. Well, we'll find out

31:04

in history that it is important, because it's

31:06

in seeing how much he leaned and built

31:08

this book on. Sorry, Dad, we interrupted. Well,

31:10

this is where, too, then it says, Dan

31:13

meets the evaness in Abra Stone, but you

31:15

already talked about Abra Stone, which is weird. And

31:18

it is her spectacular gift, the brightest shining

31:21

ever seen, that reignites Dan's own demons and

31:23

summons him to a battle for Abra's soul

31:25

and survival. This is an epic war between

31:27

good and evil, a gory,

31:29

glorious story that will thrill the millions

31:32

of devoted readers of the Shining and

31:34

satisfy anyone new to this icon in

31:36

the King Cannon. Don't know about that.

31:40

I'll read my Kindle edition,

31:42

which I bought back when it came out.

31:45

Years ago, the haunting of the Overlook

31:47

Hotel nearly broke young Dan Torrance's sanity,

31:49

as this paranormal gift known as the

31:51

Shining opened a portal. It says poor,

31:54

but it's portal. Oh, I know,

31:56

door is straight into hell. And even though Dan has

31:58

all grown up, the ghosts of the Overlook and

32:00

his father's legacy of alcohol, slim, and

32:02

violence kept him drifting aimlessly for most

32:04

of his life. Now, Dan has only

32:06

found some order in the chaos by

32:08

working a local hospice, earning the nickname

32:10

Dr. Sleep by secretly using his special

32:13

abilities to comfort the dying and prepare

32:15

them for the afterlife. But when he

32:17

unexpectedly meets 12-year-old Abra Stone, who possesses

32:19

an even more powerful manifestation of the

32:21

Shining, the two find their lives in

32:23

sudden jeopardy at the hands of an

32:25

ageless and murderous nomadic tribe known as

32:27

the True Knot, reigniting Dan's own demons

32:29

and summoning him to battle for this young

32:31

girl's soul and survival. I think I like that

32:33

synopsis the best. Yeah, it's like you can see

32:36

sentences that are used throughout all of them, but

32:38

they're just arranged in different ways. That one marries

32:40

the two worlds of the novel the best. Hearing

32:42

that, you're like, okay, I can see how this

32:44

is a Shining sequel. Where the other two, it's

32:47

like, what? Steam, huh? That's a

32:49

plan against synopsis. Yes. Yeah,

32:51

exactly. So, yeah, synopsis,

32:53

what else are we missing before we jump

32:55

into the history? No, we're here. We're good.

32:57

We're allowed to open up the history books.

32:59

Open up the history books? We're in the library? Wait, am

33:02

I mixing up? No, we got you. We're all in

33:04

the same vein. Whatever. I

33:08

guess he got his chance. I

33:10

totally guess he can. I

33:13

can't do anything for you unless you

33:15

stop being so goddamn elliptical. Now, just

33:17

slow down. Tell me the whole story

33:19

from the beginning. Can you do that?

33:21

Go. All right. I think I could

33:23

do that now. I love that for

33:25

the history section in this, for the

33:27

films, we go to Dairy Public Library, but we just don't

33:30

call it that for the fucking book episodes. We totally

33:32

should. We should. It's actually a better name. But anyway,

33:36

just to pretend that we're all sitting in the Dairy

33:38

Public Library and talking about, you know, Sidewire

33:40

Dairy. Mike Hanlon's there. Or New Hampshire, you

33:42

know, whatever. The gang's all there. The library

33:45

policeman's there. The library policeman's there with his

33:47

Twizzlers. That's all I know about the

33:49

story. Hello. Let's get out of

33:51

here, guys. Oh,

33:55

hey, I'm in the mood for a good time. I'll stick

33:57

around. that

34:00

joke right that's not good i don't know the story

34:02

so that's probably a bad problematic joke so where did

34:05

uh dr sleep begin okay so

34:07

it all

34:10

goes back to his announcement in

34:12

2009 you know during

34:14

a promotional tour for under the dome uh

34:17

he and you know he described his idea

34:20

for a sequel but it actually

34:22

goes back a few years before that

34:24

so like he basically told our pal

34:26

anthony friend of the

34:28

pod he told in his

34:30

entertainment weekly interview um which

34:33

you know ran right around the time right

34:35

before you know the book dropped he said

34:37

every now and then somebody would ask whatever happened

34:39

to danny i used to joke around and say

34:42

he married charlie mcgee from fire starter and they

34:44

had these amazing kids which is actually the novel

34:46

that justin was was hoping for but

34:49

i did sort of wonder about it and the other

34:51

thing people would have asked me is how come his

34:53

father jack torrance never tried aa because he

34:55

was the total dry drunk in the book who never

34:57

goes anywhere near a meeting one of the things you

34:59

hear from people who go into aa or people who

35:01

have substances use problems as they say it runs in

35:03

the family when the sequel idea

35:06

would pop up in my mind i would

35:08

think now danny's 20 or now he's 25

35:10

i wonder if he's drinking like his father

35:12

finally i decided okay why don't i

35:14

use that as this in the

35:16

story and just revisit that whole issue

35:18

like father like son now here's where

35:21

it gets really crazy uh because

35:23

i guess uh you know with

35:25

you guys reading twice well guess what king

35:27

uh doesn't write a book until

35:29

he has two ideas so there's a lot of

35:31

dualities in this uh episode of

35:33

the loser's club anyway i mean there's two

35:35

ideas in this book for sure i mean

35:37

that's what i'm guessing that doesn't make me

35:40

think about it two of like what 45

35:43

um he says that so he was he also

35:45

says that he was inspired by a true story

35:47

involving a hospice cat you might actually like this

35:49

story randal um probably five years

35:51

ago so there again this was in 2013 when he was

35:53

talking to anthony about this so this is probably around 2008 he got

35:55

this i saw this

35:57

piece on one of those morning news shows about a pet

36:00

Cat at a Hospice and according to this story

36:02

the cat knew before anyone else when somebody was

36:04

gonna die The cat would go into the

36:06

room curl up on the bed and the people never seemed

36:08

to mind then those people died I thought to myself I

36:11

want to write a story about that and then I

36:13

made the connection with Danny Torrance as an adult working

36:15

a hospice And I thought that's it I'm

36:18

gonna write this book and then he added the cat had

36:20

to be there It always takes two things

36:22

for me to get going. It's like the cat it was

36:25

the transmission and Danny was the motor The

36:27

whole sequel idea is really dangerous I think people have

36:29

a tendency to approach them with a raised eyebrow like

36:31

hmm if this guy is going back to where he

36:33

was 30 or 35 years ago. He

36:35

must be low on ideas He must be touching empty

36:38

on the old gas gauge which we know is not

36:40

true with Stephen King whatsoever I don't feel

36:42

that way but I did feel in this

36:44

case. It was a real challenge to go back

36:46

Yeah, we're gonna talk about that challenge. Yeah, so

36:49

Clearly he had been sitting on this idea for a while

36:52

and I imagine Based on

36:54

how he writes like he probably sits on

36:56

these ideas and lets them matriculate for a

36:58

while before he finally executes Cuz his execution

37:00

is pretty fast. Mm-hmm. Oh, yeah, you know,

37:02

that's interesting He has a he has sort

37:04

of a different origin story, but it's this

37:06

is one that he wrote in the after

37:08

word Oh, yeah, and I think it's interesting

37:10

because it's sort of like that's where he

37:12

was, you know At

37:15

one point with it and like the thing that sort

37:17

of really triggered it But he digs in the afterward

37:19

into some of the more emotional components that helped That

37:22

he sees in rich respect having helped Driven

37:25

it so he says as with under the dome in 11

37:27

22 63 This

37:29

was an idea that never quite left my

37:31

mind every now and then while taking a

37:33

shower watching a TV show or making a

37:35

long Turnpike Drive, I would find myself calculating

37:38

Danny Torrance's age and wondering where he was

37:40

not to mention his mother one more Basically

37:42

good human being left in Jack Torrance's destructive

37:44

wake Wendy and

37:46

Danny were in the current parlance

37:48

codependence people bound by ties

37:50

of love and responsibility To an addicted

37:52

family member at some point in 2009 one

37:54

of my recovering alcoholic friends told me a

37:56

one-liner that goes like this When

37:58

a codependent is drowning Somebody else's life

38:01

flashes before his eyes. That struck me as

38:03

too true to be funny And I think

38:05

it was at that point that Dr. Sleep

38:07

became inevitable. I had to know did I

38:09

approach the book with trepidation? You better believe

38:11

it No, I'll tell you

38:13

about that in a minute The Shining is one

38:15

of those novels people always mention along with Salem's

38:17

lot pet cemetery and it when they talk about

38:19

which of my Books really scared the bejesus out

38:21

of them plus of course there was Stanley Kubrick's

38:23

movie which many seem to remember for reasons I

38:25

have never quite understood. Ooh As

38:28

one of the scariest films they've ever seen and then

38:30

he says if you have seen the movie but

38:32

not read the novel You should note that dr.

38:34

Sleep follows the latter which is in my opinion

38:36

the capital true history of the Torrance family Sorry,

38:39

I said you better believe it like an idiot You

38:42

know Matt Barry from the what we do

38:44

in the shadow show great comedian, but and

38:46

the old dark place Garth

38:49

Margie's Dark Place series which is amazing and you can watch

38:52

it on YouTube He has a line ready once he goes

38:54

you better believe it and it like always made me laugh

38:56

so hard What if what if I mean what if that

38:58

very I Know

39:02

it's a like that sounds like it's a colloquialism that King

39:04

would use, you know, like you know, he always says Yeah,

39:10

so yeah And I do think it's interesting that you

39:12

know He talks about having different ideas and there are

39:14

so many ideas in here and this book is clearly

39:16

and I think it's interesting to Read his book now

39:19

Because we've been talking about the books

39:21

that King was writing straight out of

39:24

his yes Variety for past midnight the

39:26

wastelands and then dark half like those

39:28

actually a really good point. Yeah Yeah,

39:32

it is spiritually connected as always

39:34

because especially library policeman is so

39:36

much Dan. Were you on library

39:39

policeman? I was yeah Yeah, that

39:41

book dog in library. Yeah, like

39:43

that book was so about recovery.

39:45

Like yeah I

39:47

mean he's a few books that billik are Metaphor

39:50

addiction or addiction metaphors for

39:52

addiction and recovery, but

39:54

that one especially I feel yeah in all

39:56

of South Venus Well, it's also telling that

39:58

this is his first traditional horror

40:01

book since Cell when

40:03

he published this because, you know, previous

40:05

this was under the dome. He

40:08

had done 11, no previous this I believe was 11, 22, 63. Then

40:12

before that was under the dome. You

40:14

know, and those are more sci-fi than

40:17

horror than anything. And so I feel

40:20

like this was his return to horror and

40:22

what better way to do that than go

40:24

back to what's arguably, you know, a serious

40:26

book. At the same

40:28

time, I would argue this is just because we've read

40:30

a lot of his more recent books and we've talked

40:33

about them in Castle reviews on the podcast. This

40:35

is where he starts to get more into the

40:38

YA slant. Yeah. And

40:40

I think he's pretty self-aware about that.

40:42

Yeah. Because like in one

40:44

of the, you

40:47

know, in one of the discussions with

40:50

Anthony, he says, I don't know how to explain

40:52

it, but there has been the merging of

40:54

adult young fiction, which is usually

40:56

about teenagers, younger kids and adult fiction. And

40:59

I blame JK Rowling, he says with a

41:01

laugh. Harry Potter books were sold as

41:03

children's books, but they're books that everybody read. The

41:05

same is true of the Twilight books. More

41:07

of the Twilight audience were young women, but still there were

41:09

a lot of grownups who read that book. So

41:12

I feel like that's a pretty

41:14

telling, you know, quote there.

41:16

Absolutely. And honestly, it's like, I remember

41:18

this book stopped feeling like a Stephen

41:21

King book once Abra came

41:23

in. And it's not because King doesn't write

41:25

children. Obviously he writes children, but his children

41:27

and other books are so vulnerable. And

41:30

there's something about Abra that is

41:32

not, it is, she has vulnerability, especially in

41:35

the book, like more so than in the

41:37

movie. But like there is,

41:39

there's a YA quality about her where

41:41

it's kind of like she's, the child

41:43

is more powerful than everyone else. And

41:45

but like with Charlie McGee and Firestarter,

41:47

where that was the case, she was

41:49

dangerous. Yeah. Like, and it

41:52

was, it was a threat. And she

41:54

was being contained. Like here, it's like

41:56

she more so is, is more in

41:58

control of her powers. Yeah, yeah, I

42:00

think too because Dan I don't know

42:03

it will save most of this

42:05

for the characters Well, everyone again hears villains,

42:07

but there's so much in the book of

42:09

Dan Marveling at how wonderful

42:11

and powerful she is that it's almost

42:13

like she's not precocious really in her

42:16

characterization But it's he has

42:18

this weird kind of worship of her that I

42:20

think makes it come across as it

42:22

doesn't feel very authentic to me Well, I

42:25

agree I I absolutely agree and I think one

42:27

of the problems also kind of goes into what

42:29

you're saying and again We'll talk about this more in

42:31

the heroes and villain section is that I feel like

42:33

it explores the powers a little too much Yeah, and

42:35

that's one of the things I really liked in his

42:37

earlier books is like, you know We know Ellie Creed

42:40

has some sort of thing. Mm-hmm, but she doesn't really

42:42

know how to wield it But she just knows that

42:44

she has it so she gets there more no hands

42:46

than powers. Yeah, that's you know And I like that

42:48

with Danny. Yeah in the shining and because he doesn't

42:50

really wield it other than maybe

42:52

you know, obviously with bringing back hollerin but

42:54

I Kind of like that

42:57

a little bit more because it feels once you

42:59

get more specific it It

43:02

hurts the stakes and then it also It

43:05

makes it feel more actiony. Yeah, you know, I know

43:07

what you mean Yeah, but well, it's like it just

43:11

the part of the appeal of Danny and the shining

43:13

is that he's I'm gonna use word vulnerable again But

43:15

it's like King was so good at writing like

43:18

a kid who was processing things at

43:20

an age level much higher Yeah, then

43:23

him but always Couching and never

43:25

letting us forget the fact that he was like

43:27

six years old Yeah in that book and you

43:29

never forgot that and it's not like he was

43:31

ever using his mind to fight Jack Torrance Really,

43:33

he was using it to call hollerin help

43:36

and like he was using it to push

43:38

away the the demons Like those were instincts

43:40

that children would have, you know, he wasn't

43:42

like cognizant of the weight of

43:44

his powers and the things that he could do to

43:46

attack other people and use it and like shoot lightning

43:49

from His fingers or whatever whereas Abra like that's sort

43:51

of the vibe you get where she's kind of like

43:53

wow I have all these powers. Let me like compartmentalize

43:55

all the different ways that I can use them to

43:58

benefit myself and other people, you know And

44:00

it never really superseded the story either.

44:03

If you look back at the dead zone, which is probably

44:06

his best drama, it

44:08

is drama over the power. You're

44:11

not sitting there the whole time, him being like,

44:13

oh, I better go walk over this guy. Yeah, and

44:15

the real drama of this book is Danny. It's

44:18

him getting clean. And that's a story

44:20

that King ropes us into

44:22

early on. And it's so

44:24

well done. And we'll talk more about it. But

44:27

it's like, that's the story.

44:29

That's why I almost felt hoodwinked the first time

44:31

I read it, because I'm just like, I signed

44:33

up for this story. I want to see Danny

44:36

in recovery, because that's not

44:38

a story I thought I would want to see, but it's rendered

44:40

so beautifully in the first 100, 150

44:42

pages that I'm like really on board. And I love

44:44

watching him rebuild his life in this small town. And

44:47

then I'm like, yeah, you can throw in some supernatural

44:49

things here and there or whatever. But then once we

44:51

start spending too much time away from Danny, and

44:54

we're digging deep into Avra's life and

44:56

her family lineage, which ends up being

44:58

important in ways that I think are

45:00

dumb. But it's like, and then we're

45:02

spending time with these psychic vampires. I'm

45:04

just like, wow, we are drifting so

45:06

far from Danny and from the themes

45:08

that Danny was bringing. Well, look,

45:11

this is one of the only

45:13

instances, granted, look, I

45:15

don't remember this actually

45:17

happening in past publications with some of

45:19

his past books, but he

45:22

actually, this actually was a pulled. Yeah,

45:24

I saw that in your notes. Which

45:26

is crazy. So like he actually had asked

45:28

after discussing with David Cronenberg,

45:30

of all people, since we just mentioned the head

45:33

zone, he had

45:35

said that while he

45:37

was talking and promoting Under

45:39

the Dome, he mentioned, he

45:41

wrote the things, I mentioned two potential projects

45:44

while I was on the road. One, a

45:46

new mid-world book, which are what werewolves are

45:48

called in that lost kingdom. And a sequel

45:50

to The Shining called Dr. Sleep. Are you

45:53

interested in reading either of these? If so,

45:55

which one turns your dial more? We

45:57

will be counting your votes and of course, it all means nothing if

45:59

the music. don't speak. Dr.

46:02

Sleep won the poll with 5,861 votes to the win through

46:04

the keyhole, 5,812, which

46:09

is pretty close. That's close, yeah. Which is crazy

46:11

because I, you know, and obviously he published win

46:13

through the keyhole anyway, but it's wild that like,

46:15

I would imagine like the shiny one just like

46:17

would have skyrocketed past it all. But the thing

46:20

is, win through the keyhole came out before Dr.

46:22

Sleep. Did it really? I

46:24

thought it was after. I can't remember. I'm gonna look it

46:26

up. Okay. You keep going.

46:28

I mean, what's wild is that, you know, if this

46:32

is his most popular book, he's talking

46:34

about discussing it. I mean, it was

46:36

such, I vividly remember headlines

46:38

on publications that wouldn't even traditionally

46:40

cover King talking about how

46:42

he wanted to write it to us equal to

46:44

the shiny just because the shining is such a

46:46

big ubiquitous book. So

46:50

those numbers right there are

46:52

pretty interesting and also emblematic of

46:54

just like the King fan and that like,

46:56

they are so diehard with the diet, the

46:58

dark tower. Yeah. It

47:00

did. It went through the keyhole. It came out in 2012. Oh,

47:02

wow. And yeah, because I remember reading it

47:04

in the apartment I was living in in 2012. That's a

47:07

very vivid memory. Well, I guess that pole means nothing. I

47:10

guess it does. I guess you can't complain

47:12

about Trump winning the popular vote either. So

47:14

there you go. So follow the

47:17

vote. Anyway, last week. We just got about 10

47:19

one star reviews from that. I'm just joking. Come

47:21

on. We're not going to talk about Trump. So

47:25

there are some other interesting things about this, the

47:27

background here. He

47:29

actually hired a researcher to

47:32

help him out with going back to some

47:34

of the details because I mean, he's

47:36

writing this book. I imagine he rewrote, reread

47:39

The Shining. Maybe not. But at the same

47:41

time, he knows that at this

47:43

point, which is in the early aughts, that the

47:45

Reddit culture is starting to come up. And if

47:47

he doesn't get all the facts right, he's going

47:49

to kill. That's why George R. R.

47:51

Martin has the guy who does that for him. And

47:54

King's guy was a guy named Rocky Wood. Rocky

47:56

Wood. You got the competition there, Rock and Rattle.

48:00

Yeah, so he's from New Zealand.

48:02

His first book was The Complete

48:04

Saga, I don't know, The

48:06

Complete Guide to the Works of Stephen King, which is

48:08

a 6,000 page encyclopedia

48:11

on the CD-ROM, and it

48:13

summarizes every story, every character,

48:15

every place, and every timeline

48:17

in King's work. In-depth

48:19

information on all 270 fiction

48:21

works by King, 26,000 characters, 5,000 places, and

48:24

all the adaptations from

48:28

his works to the big screen and

48:30

small screen. Maybe we should get on the

48:33

pod. He would be a good one. Yeah,

48:35

so he goes, Rocky Wood was my go-to

48:37

guy for all things shining, for

48:39

all things shining, providing me with names and

48:41

dates I had either forgotten or playing got

48:44

wrong. He also provided reams of info on

48:46

every recreational vehicle and camper under the sun.

48:48

The coolest was Rose's Earth Cruiser. I might

48:50

as well say that Rocky could have scaled

48:52

back on those details also. The

48:57

carny details are great. Oh yeah, I love

48:59

when they talk about them shitting

49:01

their pants and stuff too. The orgy,

49:04

the fucking hot dog with like crippled

49:10

bread that he'd eat. I love thinking about

49:12

the giant from Twin Peaks and an orgy.

49:14

Yeah, me too. So, and then he says,

49:16

the rock knows my work better than I

49:18

do myself. Look him up on the web

49:20

sometime. He's got it going on. That sounds

49:22

like one of his tweets. Yeah, and

49:24

calling him the rock is confusing because that's what he

49:27

calls Castle Rock. Oh yeah, he does. Maybe,

49:29

what if the rock, his rock, talks

49:32

about his other rock, Castle

49:34

Rock. So, the rock is busy in the rock.

49:37

And then Dwayne the Rock Johnson. In the

49:39

movie. What if

49:41

he's starting in a Castle Rock story? I don't know.

49:43

I'm like laughing at the idea of Dwayne Johnson licking

49:45

Castle Rock. Son of Pangborn. He

49:49

met a Samoan woman. Oh

49:52

God. No, that's fun.

49:54

Any other history that you want to enlighten him? No,

49:56

I mean, this is, that was pretty much it. I

49:58

mean, there's a lot there. Yeah, I

50:00

remember the reaction of this book when it came out was

50:02

pretty mixed. I feel like it

50:04

wasn't... But the thing is, I don't

50:07

feel like my issue

50:09

with the book is that it wasn't just

50:11

a retread of The Shining. And

50:14

King obviously talked about how he didn't want to just make a

50:16

sequel, like a straight sequel because then people are going to be

50:18

like, oh, he's out of ideas. And the

50:20

thing is, that's probably what most people wanted, was him to

50:22

just have Danny go to the Overlook again, even though it

50:25

blew up, maybe they rebuilt it or something. Which is kind

50:27

of funny. Which is what Flanagan got to do. But

50:30

I do remember being really, really excited

50:32

for this, having not even

50:34

read The Shining for like, I think

50:37

maybe at that point, like over 15 years

50:39

maybe. But I still was like, I

50:41

got to get this book. And I remember actually being

50:43

in one of the bookstores and when the

50:46

excerpt came out and reading

50:48

it, and it was just like Willy

50:50

Wonka. I got excited, I ran out, and

50:53

then I remember Justin, the

50:55

old slugworth, stopped me. And he was

50:57

just like, actually, it's not a good book. He

51:00

is the ultimate slugworth of his plot. But

51:02

I just remember hearing his negative

51:05

review of it and being like, oh, and then he told me

51:07

some of the stuff about it, and I was like, yeah, that

51:09

sounds like shit. I'm not going to read it. So I put

51:12

it off forever. And he really crushed your dreams, huh? Yeah, he

51:14

crushed it. He saved me. Because honestly, had I

51:16

read that, it probably would have been like, I'm not starting this

51:18

part. I really want to... That

51:20

would have... I'm not doing the button, I'm just joking. That

51:22

was because I was going to say. I would have been

51:24

like, I think this is a bad idea. But

51:29

I probably would have been a little more averse to

51:31

going through, like, yeah, I want to go back and

51:33

read all these books. Right, right,

51:35

right. I think I'm going with this one. Well, let's

51:37

venture into the... I think I

51:39

feel a hook pulling back of my pants. I

51:41

think it's time to go dig into

51:43

some of the themes that we see in DICE.

51:47

Ah, yes. Don't

51:51

you see? Don't you see

51:53

how clear it all is? Not

51:55

only can you see the future, you

51:58

can back and change. You

52:00

can change it exactly So

52:03

like I said, I think what I really respond to

52:06

most in this book is The

52:08

idea of you know Basically pulling oneself up from

52:10

rock bottom and there's like a real personal aspect

52:12

to this and I think I like I said

52:15

I am kind of glad we talked about it

52:17

now because for me this story

52:20

Like like the fact that we're talking about dr.

52:22

Sleep now after we've been talking about dark have

52:25

library policemen and The

52:28

Tommy knockers and misery which are all Books

52:31

that he wrote either in the throes of

52:33

addiction or fresh off like fresh

52:35

in sobriety Yeah, and all of those books

52:37

deal with those themes about like feeling

52:40

captive by your own desires losing

52:43

your identity You

52:45

know changing once you consume a certain substance

52:47

things like that and also just past traumas

52:49

like I think that a lot of giving

52:51

King's alcoholism is related to and that this

52:54

is I think something that they

52:56

teach you in a a and something you discuss in

52:58

a a is The what trauma

53:00

it is that is sort of wrapped up in your

53:03

addiction. Yeah, and how that trauma Informs

53:05

the addiction and makes it seem almost fatalist

53:07

by design. We're like, well, I'm gonna get

53:09

it Yeah, it's gonna be with me. I'm

53:11

gonna carry this into my father forever right

53:13

now and that's like a huge thing in

53:15

library policemen because it's all about trauma like

53:17

that whole book is and and

53:20

obviously same with a lot of his other ones too,

53:22

and I think that It's

53:24

like here you're seeing you were you know a

53:26

couple decades later and we're seeing

53:28

that he's still grappling with these things But he's

53:31

you know, and I think this might be I think

53:34

one of the exciting things about those earlier King

53:36

books Is that the band-aid or like the wound

53:38

was still fresh, you know, like he was still

53:40

coming he was coming out of rehab He was

53:42

really raw and when he was writing about these

53:44

things and that to me is the most interesting

53:46

part about library policemen because he was processing things

53:48

in such a raw way and And

53:51

just like with Tommy knockers and misery those

53:53

were books where he knew he had a

53:55

problem and he was writing about being directly

53:57

Confronted with that problem and knowing that he

53:59

was being and he's a little hot captive. And

54:01

that to me is really fascinating. Here we're seeing like

54:03

an older, wiser king. And he's

54:05

reflected on these things. He's been sober for a

54:08

year. So when he meets guys like Dr. John,

54:11

like these are, that's like King, because

54:13

he is that wiser guy who's

54:15

helping somebody. But I really love

54:17

the way that King deals with

54:21

not just Danny's trauma from his

54:23

dad that he's inherited, but also

54:25

just like the way that his

54:27

bad behavior as he's gotten older

54:29

continues to ripple throughout his life. And the

54:31

bad memories will not leave him alone. And the

54:34

collateral damage that comes from that, which is rage

54:36

and how he almost kind of equates rage with

54:38

their own shining power, in a weird way, like

54:40

a bit way, especially towards the end when he's

54:42

talking to Abra and

54:45

she walks away from the party. And

54:47

after she shatters all the plates,

54:50

the way that it's framed, it's almost like at

54:53

the end you're supposed to go, oh, so you're

54:55

getting ahold of the shining, getting ahold of your

54:57

own rage. And obviously that

54:59

rage for Danny is tied

55:02

to his father, tied to the alcoholism that's in there.

55:05

He has a grip on it. And

55:07

at that point, you almost feel as

55:09

if King is speaking from

55:14

where his perspective is in 2013, 2012, or

55:18

whenever he was. You know? Right.

55:20

Yeah, I love that. And then this

55:22

section that is

55:24

on page, well, it's

55:26

in my Kindle, I don't know how

55:28

much it aligns with all of yours.

55:30

But I think- When you read real

55:32

books, random. Paid Fixiate, because I like

55:34

this section because it kind of sums

55:36

up the complicated nature with which he

55:38

views his dad, like in relation to

55:40

his trauma. So when he gets

55:42

the job, Kingsley basically tells

55:45

him, don't fuck it up. And

55:47

this little paragraph follows. Dan

55:50

said he wouldn't fuck up, but the extra sincerity

55:52

he tried to inject into his voice sounded

55:54

phony to his own ears. He was thinking of

55:56

his father again, reduced to begging jobs from a

55:58

wealthy old friend after losing his- teaching position in

56:00

Vermont. It was strange to feel sympathy for a

56:02

man who had almost killed you, but the sympathy

56:05

was there. Had people felt it necessary to tell

56:07

his father not to fuck up, probably. And Jack

56:09

Torrance had fucked up anyway, spectacularly, five stars. Drinking

56:11

was undoubtedly a part of it, but when you

56:13

were down, some guys just seemed to feel an

56:15

urge to walk up your back and plant a

56:18

fuck on your neck instead of helping you to

56:20

stand. It was lousy, but so much of human

56:22

nature was. Of course, when you were running with

56:24

the bottom dogs, what you mostly saw were paws,

56:26

claws, and assholes. And then

56:28

somewhere around there, he doesn't seem like a vicious little prick, just

56:30

like his father did in the show, or he

56:32

actually thinks about it or something like that. And I

56:35

love that. But to me, that's

56:38

the most compelling theme, and it's what we start

56:40

with, which is that general sense of

56:44

I've grown into my father, but I'm

56:46

self-aware about it, and I'm trying to

56:48

change, and I'm fighting to change. But

56:50

I love the way that King lingers

56:52

on his bottom rung moments.

56:57

And obviously, I mean. They come

56:59

from a sense of realism. Yeah. Well, like, just

57:01

that. Double A. The

57:03

AA meeting. Yeah.

57:07

The triple A meeting. Yeah, right? There's

57:09

a nuance to them that the rest of the

57:11

book doesn't really have. Yeah.

57:14

Well, it kind of gets away from

57:16

being about addiction at a certain

57:18

point. I agree. It's

57:22

weird. Once the end, I mean, towards the end,

57:24

it comes back to that middle section when it

57:26

becomes more about the antagonists. It really

57:28

does. I feel like all this stuff kind

57:30

of fades away. I guess Dan feels the same as a

57:32

character, but I don't know. I

57:35

think that's part of it. I wonder if that

57:37

could have been woven through a little bit better.

57:39

I would have liked that. It's not the hook

57:41

by the end of it. Yeah, absolutely. Because there's

57:43

definitely moments where he tries to wedge in there

57:45

that this is still a redemption

57:48

or an alcohol, a recovery

57:50

story, where he's outside

57:52

the bar, and he calls John. He's just like, hey,

57:54

I can see the neon. He's like, I know that

57:56

place. Get the hell out of there. Yeah. And then

57:58

that is happening amidst the action. And so you

58:00

have these subtle reminders that, you know, Danny

58:02

is still kind of going through the motions.

58:04

But that was like why I felt hoodwink

58:06

was because I felt like we were leaving

58:08

this story and those themes. Because

58:11

some of the most moving parts of the

58:13

book to me, and I love, and I

58:15

do like the way King threads this throughout,

58:17

which is that the way that we keep

58:19

revisiting his hookup with

58:21

that Dini girl, and then her kid coming

58:23

out and seeing the cocaine and saying candy,

58:25

and the fact that, you know,

58:27

he senses that they both died and everything, and

58:29

that sense of guilt and the weight that hangs

58:32

over him. But because as

58:34

somebody who, I don't struggle

58:36

with addiction, but I think like in terms of

58:38

trauma, the thing about it is the way that

58:41

trauma like lingers and the fact, the way it

58:43

like just comes back into your head at any

58:46

moment and it shames you. It's like a memory

58:48

or something from your past that you're really ashamed

58:50

of and that you're still recovering from and still

58:52

dealing with. It just runs back in your head

58:55

out of nowhere. And King captures that really well

58:57

in this one memory that really captures sort of

58:59

the shame that Dini feels and then the anger

59:01

at how he's gotten this low. Which is one

59:03

of the reasons why I think a lot of

59:06

critics were so hard on Flanagan's adaptation because he

59:08

kind of abandons that story a little bit. Well

59:10

he has to. I mean he has to, he

59:12

does. But I do think he

59:14

could have probably welded it back in a little

59:16

bit, like talking to Buddy Disgusting's

59:18

name, Megan Navarro, that

59:20

was one of her biggest crisis, was that like, where

59:23

did his arc go in that

59:25

sense? Because reading this book, it's

59:28

funny because I think like his

59:30

guilt is kind of trite by

59:32

comparison to say, his

59:34

father who probably ran over somebody in the

59:36

first one. And so when he has this honest

59:38

omission at the end and everyone's kind of

59:40

like already like, uh-uh and they go back

59:42

to the pizza. I kind of was like, I'd

59:44

go back to the pizza. Yeah, well that's the thing

59:46

is like, I agree with you but

59:50

I think that at the same time, what

59:53

that accomplishes is how we turn

59:55

minor, it's

59:58

not minor, but like we turn. things,

1:00:01

we give them greater power than they actually have.

1:00:03

Oh, totally. Because we become so ashamed of a

1:00:06

certain moment or a certain time in our lives

1:00:08

that, you know, once we tell somebody else

1:00:10

about something that we're so ashamed of, they're like, that's it,

1:00:12

you know? But we've built it up in our heads to

1:00:14

such a degree. Oh, absolutely. And that's what I think that-

1:00:16

And I like that. Yeah, that's what I think King really

1:00:18

gets really well in this and I think

1:00:20

another thing along these same lines, and then

1:00:23

I'll turn it over, I think

1:00:25

is this pervasive sense

1:00:27

of feeling sorry for his

1:00:29

dad, you know? Which I think contributes

1:00:31

because he's still reckoning with, like,

1:00:34

because obviously what he went through, he watched his dad

1:00:36

turn into a monster, but he also saw that there

1:00:38

was still humanity in his dad. This is what the

1:00:40

difference from the movie is like, there was still humanity

1:00:42

with his dad in the end. Which I think is

1:00:44

pointed too, because I think the reason why he leans

1:00:47

so hard into that is because the public consciousness

1:00:49

still thinks of Jack Black as just like this

1:00:51

monster. Honestly, I think King tries to- In the

1:00:53

movie, it almost like, in the movie, I

1:00:56

mean, at least I do enjoy the movie, but it

1:00:58

kind of doesn't make sense because he's talking about his

1:01:00

dad's humanity. I'm like, well, we're talking about movie Jack

1:01:02

Torney. I'm like, I haven't even really- Hey, buddy.

1:01:05

Yeah. Oh, you got this. Well, I guess like

1:01:07

hook wise, and maybe

1:01:10

even though it is maybe more

1:01:12

threaded throughout than I'm giving it credit for, do you

1:01:14

think the idea of trauma and addiction and all that

1:01:17

stuff does get overrun by the

1:01:19

more traditional horror hook of the

1:01:21

novel, which is these energy vampires?

1:01:23

Yeah. I feel like that's

1:01:25

the hook in itself, and it just feels

1:01:27

weird meshing up with the other stuff. Well,

1:01:29

that's, again, he tries to reconcile these two

1:01:31

narratives by doing the whole Peter Parker with

1:01:34

great power comes great responsibility lesson

1:01:36

at the end where he's talking to Abra by

1:01:39

the river or whatever, and he's like, you

1:01:41

gotta learn how to take control of it, and you gotta

1:01:43

do good with it. And at that point, it seems a little

1:01:45

too cheap. It seems like, well,

1:01:48

you're trying to kind of tie this together, and

1:01:50

you really can't at that point because

1:01:53

the powers that you've had, you've already kind

1:01:55

of glorified these powers in ways because they've

1:01:57

defeated evil. So when you're equating that.

1:02:00

to like the rage itself. I mean, I guess you can

1:02:02

make the argument that it has that sort of Peter Parker

1:02:04

edge to it, but it just

1:02:06

felt cheap because you started

1:02:08

off from

1:02:10

a sense of like a real place. So

1:02:13

to kind of co-opt this story and

1:02:15

say, yeah, well, it works because we've

1:02:18

well done, this is where we're landing,

1:02:20

it didn't work for me. Yeah, so

1:02:22

I guess like, so Dan, what sort

1:02:24

of themes do you think emerge as

1:02:26

the addiction narrative sort

1:02:29

of gets buried? What themes do you think emerge

1:02:31

from the true knot and from Abra's family? Like

1:02:33

what else sticks out to you? Like which way

1:02:35

do you think the book starts moving once it

1:02:38

gets into the middle? I mean,

1:02:40

it's weird because it feels

1:02:42

like it gets away from theme in the literary

1:02:44

sense, if that makes sense. And

1:02:48

ties itself a little bit more

1:02:50

to, I guess maybe not theme,

1:02:52

but just YA conventions. Like

1:02:55

the convention, it becomes more about the lore

1:02:57

and the mythology of the true knot than

1:03:00

about Dan's journey about

1:03:03

alcoholism and everything. And I mean, I don't know,

1:03:05

I guess there's maybe

1:03:08

a bit in there about the

1:03:10

true knot just doing what they need to to

1:03:12

survive, just like anyone else. But I don't know,

1:03:14

I wouldn't call that a theme necessarily, like it

1:03:16

feels a little bit undercooked for me. I think

1:03:18

it's my problem, because it doesn't feel very, like

1:03:21

the stuff with the energy vampires, they're

1:03:23

vampiric, right? What do you think? Yeah, they are. I just

1:03:26

feel like the stuff with the energy vampires, and maybe it's

1:03:28

because we've seen it already by this point. I

1:03:31

actually don't love how Wolves of the

1:03:33

Kala and some of the other books

1:03:35

in Dark Tower mythology expound

1:03:37

upon the vampire mythology. Because like in Sam's life, they're like,

1:03:39

oh, they're just vampires, you know? But then when they have

1:03:41

all these different tiers and levels and all this stuff. Floating

1:03:44

eyeballs in their head. Exactly, yeah, like they just

1:03:46

get bogged down in mythology a little bit. And

1:03:49

when it becomes more about the lore or

1:03:51

the myth or what have

1:03:53

you, it's just hard for me to find theme in that

1:03:56

a little bit. I don't know, did you guys find anything

1:03:58

there just within the culture of the true knowledge? within

1:04:01

their tribe. Yeah, I

1:04:03

thought it was a weird inverse of

1:04:05

what he was exploring with Barlow and

1:04:08

Salem's lot with the xenophobia coming into

1:04:10

the small town. I thought it was

1:04:12

almost like this sort of disgust

1:04:15

of nationalism because the way that

1:04:17

he describes them is so in

1:04:19

detail of these, they're so in

1:04:21

parallel to what he

1:04:24

actually observed in real life because when he actually read

1:04:26

some of the interviews with the

1:04:28

one we talked about with Anthony Bresnikin, he talks

1:04:30

at great lengths about how when he was driving down

1:04:32

to Florida with Tabby, he would see these type of

1:04:35

people and he drew from

1:04:37

that experience. When I

1:04:39

thought about that in the context of what

1:04:41

the true knot is, it almost seems like

1:04:43

this distrust of nationalism in a weird way.

1:04:46

It's almost like this inverse of Salem's lot

1:04:48

where they are vampiric and they do suck

1:04:50

out the energy and they are trying to

1:04:52

infiltrate. It's at the,

1:04:55

obviously, it's an internal level. The

1:04:57

infiltration idea is interesting but also the idea

1:04:59

that because the thing is they're

1:05:03

so rich in everything, they take over places.

1:05:05

They're entitled to history because they've lived it.

1:05:08

There's that which can have some sort of

1:05:10

ties to nationalism because there's that pride that's

1:05:12

involved into it. There's the generational aspect because

1:05:14

they're so old and they feed on, well,

1:05:16

they love to feed on children specifically. Okay,

1:05:19

Boomer. That's

1:05:21

a reference to a meme. This

1:05:24

is weird and I might be way off here.

1:05:27

I also thought given, and this could just be King because

1:05:29

he would love to do this, is

1:05:31

that all the tech references like

1:05:33

with Google Earth, IAMing, Firefox, I

1:05:36

thought he might be suggesting that

1:05:38

the shine is almost moot in a digital age.

1:05:42

That might be going a little too

1:05:44

far but it just seemed to

1:05:46

me that there was

1:05:48

something there that the sense that

1:05:50

like Danny's leaning

1:05:52

on it big time, Abra's leaning on it.

1:05:55

They're still finding each other through the internet.

1:05:57

She actually has to send them the email address. address,

1:06:00

like there is something saying that like, you

1:06:02

know, maybe this is, there is some sort

1:06:04

of like allusions to like how we all

1:06:06

have that sort of power and that there

1:06:08

is no mystery to things. I don't know.

1:06:10

Maybe that was interesting. I think

1:06:13

that's interesting. I think

1:06:15

like, yeah, and I think, how

1:06:17

do I phrase this? Like there

1:06:20

is this fear of, I think,

1:06:23

especially with the true not to, and maybe

1:06:25

this can tie into the tech aspect is

1:06:27

there is a fear of the future. And

1:06:30

like one of, if there's one thing

1:06:32

that I found really interesting about the

1:06:35

true not, and this actually ties into

1:06:37

the Institute as well, is that King's

1:06:39

villains in his later books, they

1:06:41

tend to be older, people

1:06:43

from an older generation whose edifice

1:06:46

is crumbling around. And they're still

1:06:48

super evil and super monstrous, but

1:06:50

they're also like in the throes

1:06:53

of decay. That's the

1:06:55

thing that's going on in the Institute that

1:06:57

I found really compelling. And it's also a

1:06:59

thing that's happening here because they're getting older

1:07:01

and they're getting sicker and the old ways

1:07:03

aren't really working anymore. And there is this

1:07:05

emphasis on, you know, the younger,

1:07:07

what's that Dan? No, I was

1:07:09

gonna say, I'm not, it was funny. I was

1:07:11

just like, Oh yeah, you're right. I thought I

1:07:13

wasn't given, I feel like I maybe wasn't at

1:07:16

what, maybe I wasn't digging deep enough with it

1:07:18

with the not enough for forever. Well, honestly, reading

1:07:20

the Institute, because that was the thing that stood

1:07:22

out to me about the Institute, no spoilers, but

1:07:24

there is this sort of idea of even

1:07:27

at the highest levels of sort of

1:07:29

evil or government or whatever, it's

1:07:32

like, there are fundamental

1:07:35

problems that come from mismanagement.

1:07:37

And that to me is

1:07:39

fascinating. And I find it

1:07:41

interesting that King is

1:07:43

framing his villains this way. And I think you

1:07:45

can find that, you know, maybe in his older

1:07:47

books too, but it's something that I see emerging

1:07:49

a lot in these

1:07:51

later ones. So the true not are interesting to

1:07:54

me because like in the way that Abra is

1:07:56

not interesting to me because I don't see her

1:07:58

as flawed or. as vulnerable

1:08:00

or as naive as the

1:08:03

kids and say it, who are

1:08:05

so well-drawn and so well-developed. Here we

1:08:07

don't have that. We get her as

1:08:09

a precocious kid who is extremely powerful

1:08:12

and that's just reeks of YA. And

1:08:15

I want a little more depth, but I think

1:08:17

what's, so basically you've got the true knot and

1:08:19

the younger the children are and the more powerful

1:08:21

they are, the more steam they can get out

1:08:24

of them. But there's also addiction and that ties

1:08:26

into the addiction issues as they are mirrored, not

1:08:28

that effectively, I don't think. With

1:08:31

the steam. With the steam, obviously there's an

1:08:33

addiction quality to that, that they need that

1:08:35

to keep going and they can't live without

1:08:37

that. And whereas Dan is overcoming his addiction,

1:08:40

they're not. But the thing is they can't

1:08:42

overcome their addiction. They need that to live.

1:08:44

So it's like the parallel doesn't quite work,

1:08:46

but I do kind of like the

1:08:49

ways that Rose gets

1:08:51

more and more frenzied the more she realizes that

1:08:53

the steam is running out. Like that she

1:08:55

has these special canisters in her car and they're

1:08:58

running out. And alcoholic sort

1:09:00

of just being like, I'm running out of booze, I need

1:09:02

more. Yeah, yeah. And I love that.

1:09:05

But did you think that the canisters, the

1:09:07

only thing I could think of were the

1:09:09

TGRI canisters from Teenage Mutant Ninja, too. Like.

1:09:13

I kept thinking of the Jurassic Park. Well, the

1:09:15

movie, the way it looked, it looked like the

1:09:17

dots. Yeah, the dots. Oh, that's funny. Well,

1:09:19

it just made me think, and especially when watching it in

1:09:21

the movie where it has almost this sort of cool X-Men,

1:09:26

Reebro sort of steel canister

1:09:28

to it, where do they get these? Yeah,

1:09:31

I know, right? Like is there a Lucius Fox

1:09:33

to this true knot that's gonna be able to

1:09:35

like. They're rich enough that you would think so.

1:09:37

Yeah, I want that character to come in and

1:09:40

be like, you know, you guys are, I

1:09:42

got a new canister for you that you have some

1:09:45

capabilities. You can store it in three different levels and

1:09:47

God. But I

1:09:49

do, I guess, I find

1:09:52

that aspect interesting in

1:09:54

how vulnerable King makes the

1:09:56

true knot. Oh, yeah, totally. As powerful as they are, like,

1:09:58

and the fact that they all. start bailing at

1:10:00

the end like they all start abandoning

1:10:03

other incredibly ineffectual right

1:10:05

middle of the book right and that's

1:10:07

like and then also because in there as

1:10:09

oh and also I call a little

1:10:11

bit of bullshit because the idea that they start

1:10:13

dying because they get the measles or whatever mm-hmm

1:10:15

don't you think that would have happened by now

1:10:17

yeah I thought about that then also like do

1:10:19

we and I guess we could probably move on

1:10:21

to the heroes and villains now we're like actually

1:10:23

just talking about it yeah yeah we can but

1:10:25

I will say like to that point like

1:10:28

why is that really necessary when she's already killing

1:10:30

off most of the true not anyway it was

1:10:32

almost like there's too much on the side of

1:10:34

like the the abra stone and Darien Torrance I

1:10:37

actually for a while started feeling like oh

1:10:39

like Rose the Hat doesn't she's kind of fucked at this

1:10:41

point where does she have like you know that's the thing

1:10:43

is I never felt like she was ever

1:10:45

gonna win no but that's where the and I

1:10:48

think Dan you mentioned like a lack of stakes

1:10:50

like or maybe that was you Mike but it's

1:10:52

like that's where I thought was I was like

1:10:54

well how is Howard Danny and ever gonna kill

1:10:57

her you know like yeah threat like the real

1:10:59

threat is in how powerful they are in terms

1:11:01

of how much like how much

1:11:03

influence they have behind the veil you know

1:11:05

the fact that they own all this property

1:11:07

and that they have all this money and

1:11:10

they have all these connections it just

1:11:12

like that's the thing is I like the idea that

1:11:14

there's this crumbling edifice but like but

1:11:16

then they also have all that like behind

1:11:19

the scenes power so it's hard to really buy

1:11:21

that and I guess that's like where I struggle

1:11:23

a little bit is like is like

1:11:25

I wanted to see more of that way and that

1:11:27

thing like it's killing Rose really the end of the

1:11:29

true not they don't know I mean they don't really

1:11:31

think they're kind of like a little somebody got away

1:11:33

yeah but at the same time like the

1:11:36

book kind of makes it feel like it is

1:11:38

has been vanquished maybe it's like the ending of the

1:11:40

witches the movie of eight witches where they like they're

1:11:42

at someone become good yeah

1:11:46

another sequel we're like they're all good

1:11:48

now actually good now with yeah yeah

1:11:50

well I think to yes it's

1:11:52

the lack of stakes and then so you don't

1:11:54

really buy into the the conflict in the drama

1:11:57

that's exist that is happening on them but not

1:11:59

the same time, they're not really

1:12:01

made to feel threatening or scary. And a lot

1:12:03

of that has to do with how King dresses

1:12:05

them. I

1:12:09

just pictured old bumbling carneys tipping their

1:12:11

fedora hats and stuff. I don't know

1:12:13

if you actually said that's what they

1:12:15

look like, but there's

1:12:17

something just kind

1:12:19

of feeble and goofy about them, just purely

1:12:22

aesthetically. And which, like you said, would not

1:12:24

be a problem if they really lead into

1:12:26

this idea of them fading away and crumbling,

1:12:28

you might feel some empathy for them. But

1:12:30

it's kind of like how I

1:12:32

think Justin feels about Bill Hodges

1:12:34

and the... Oh,

1:12:37

I also feel about Bill Hodges. Yeah, just that kind

1:12:39

of like the... Just

1:12:42

like the down of my luck kind of

1:12:44

felt. There's just like a lot. It's

1:12:47

like just such a folksy quality that I hate. And

1:12:49

a top hat is never scary. Well,

1:12:51

no, I take it back. Well, there is one

1:12:53

scene, and I have one that's in Cemetery that

1:12:55

involves a top hat. There

1:12:58

is some stuff early on with the baseball boy and

1:13:00

some other things that are pretty terrifying,

1:13:03

but I think that is more to do

1:13:05

with what's happening rather than their characterization. This

1:13:07

is like such a dumb, obscure reference, but

1:13:10

all right, I'll make it quick. So when

1:13:12

Bruce Springsteen... I knew you

1:13:14

were going to Springsteen with that. It's just so silly.

1:13:17

When he started doing the Tunnel of

1:13:19

Love tour in the 80s, which was

1:13:21

really controversial because he mixed up his

1:13:24

stage setup. He wasn't playing hits, and

1:13:26

he did this whole Carnival motif. Like

1:13:28

no joke, because Tunnel of Love is in a Carnival ride. So

1:13:30

in the beginning, it shows the entire

1:13:33

band walking in and buying a ticket and going

1:13:35

on a Carnival ride, and then they start playing.

1:13:38

And this guy Terry, I forget his last name. He

1:13:40

was like Bruce Springsteen's assistant for a long time. He

1:13:42

has a song, Terry Song About Him. Oh, yeah. Yeah.

1:13:45

But this guy Terry, he plays like

1:13:47

the ticket taker. And he has this like

1:13:50

best thought and like a fake cigar, like

1:13:52

a bowler that he keeps tipping.

1:13:55

And I'm not making fun of Terry, but

1:13:58

it's more just like, that's what it's... picture

1:14:00

the true not looking like like this got this

1:14:02

kind of lame carnival term like hey I want

1:14:04

to do it I don't know why maybe maybe

1:14:06

I'm being unfair toward the novel but like I

1:14:08

could get that image out of my head both

1:14:10

times when I read it well we could discuss

1:14:12

more about the true not in a section we

1:14:14

like to call heroes and villain I'm

1:14:17

gonna have to kill this fucking clown welcome

1:14:26

to heroes and villains in which we

1:14:28

discuss Stephen King's many heroes and villains

1:14:31

and there are some here as well since we're on the

1:14:33

true not why don't we keep talking about I can

1:14:35

only hear more about Terry though I

1:14:42

mean he wrote the song Terry song

1:14:44

when it's on magic isn't it yeah

1:14:46

Terry McGovern that's his name I

1:14:49

can find there's footage of the tunnel of love tour

1:14:51

and it's like that fine for a Bruce Springsteen concert

1:14:53

but that's not why what what my dolons being but

1:14:55

if you know that may have been projecting

1:14:57

that on time but was was it sure not

1:14:59

for you guys as goofy as I am thinking

1:15:01

they are I think he is

1:15:03

and I honestly think that

1:15:05

King feels that way too I mean

1:15:07

like throughout the whole goddamn novel he

1:15:09

seems to be so self-aware at how

1:15:12

ridiculous this story is I mean there's

1:15:14

just so many points where he

1:15:16

like has to cop to just how

1:15:18

coincidental things are you know like at one

1:15:20

point Dan even has to shrug off the

1:15:22

the coincidences and he's just like I didn't

1:15:25

want to bring up that this is another

1:15:27

coincidence and I mean there's literally an entire

1:15:29

section of it on

1:15:32

on like page 512 525 there

1:15:34

the characters

1:15:36

you know even admit to the the

1:15:39

fact that this is so ludicrous I think like

1:15:41

even dr. John yeah multiple times just like

1:15:43

I can't even believe what I'm fucking hearing

1:15:45

and it's for me it's like I

1:15:48

think a lot of that is more tied to the

1:15:50

true not enough than actually anything else going on in

1:15:52

the story because if it was a little more grounded

1:15:54

I feel like you wouldn't have to make these self-aware

1:15:57

moments it does feel like there's a lot of

1:15:59

heavy lifting required to connect all these

1:16:01

stories, you know? And

1:16:03

I think that's something that bugs me.

1:16:05

But I guess like, but I will say,

1:16:07

I mean, I

1:16:10

think that once you get past sort of the

1:16:12

bluer, the basser qualities of the true knot, the

1:16:15

orgies and the dumb costumes and like- Can't

1:16:18

wait for pound cake. I know, the rampant

1:16:20

horiness. Oh, I know, good God. It's

1:16:22

like, I think Rose the Hat

1:16:25

is an interesting character. I think

1:16:27

that there's, you know, the

1:16:30

agelessness of that character and

1:16:32

the confidence of that character that

1:16:34

exists is very interesting. And

1:16:36

I don't know, like, she

1:16:39

annoyed me at first, but I found her to at

1:16:41

least be one of the more credible members of the

1:16:43

true knot. The rest of them are just painted so

1:16:45

often, aside from Crow Daddy, who is also to me,

1:16:47

you know, he at least strikes me

1:16:49

as like a good mid-level King villain, but at the

1:16:51

same time, there's just so little we know about them.

1:16:55

Whereas, like, we never really get the

1:16:57

fully developed, you know, Crow

1:16:59

Daddy or the fully developed- It's all appearance, I think

1:17:02

that's the problem. Yeah, it's all appearance, yeah. And like

1:17:04

so many of them are just described as being like

1:17:06

slovenly, like, you know. I

1:17:10

just think they're all like motor scooters, like,

1:17:12

I don't know, I mean, it just, yeah,

1:17:15

it's just like kind of, it was almost like South

1:17:17

Park's idea of what

1:17:20

old people are like or something. Yeah. I don't

1:17:22

know. I know that's like, horrible. But

1:17:24

I just can't picture that as like, you

1:17:27

know, walking around with canes and stuff. I mean, there's anything

1:17:29

wrong with that and you can make those things scary, but

1:17:31

I think because it was so rude and aesthetic and nothing

1:17:33

else, it's, you know, again, they're not,

1:17:35

I mean, hell, even Pennywise is very developed and done

1:17:37

most of them. Well, I think for me, like, I

1:17:39

think one of the things I liked about the movie was

1:17:42

that when you cast someone like Carol Struckier in

1:17:44

As Grandpa Flick in the movie, this

1:17:46

like seven foot four inch

1:17:48

guy. Yeah, he's a movie fan from

1:17:50

Gerald's Game also, right? Yeah, he's in

1:17:52

Gerald's Game as well. Fascinating actor. And

1:17:54

I think that when you do that,

1:17:56

then okay, that's the kind

1:17:59

of villain that. I find interesting in

1:18:01

this world. If this is like a traveling

1:18:03

band of sideshow, carny people, at least give

1:18:05

me like, somebody who is

1:18:07

larger than life, you know? Somebody who

1:18:09

isn't defined by a silly costume and

1:18:11

being horny all the time. Like, I

1:18:14

like the aesthetic of the

1:18:16

true knot as they exist in the

1:18:19

film. Yeah. They're much better. Yeah,

1:18:21

and like, and I even buy like, Rose's Top

1:18:23

Hat because I think they really sell it in

1:18:25

that opening scene with the little girl. But then

1:18:27

you've got Grandpa Flick who's, you know, you cast

1:18:30

this great actor, it's really striking, visually striking actor

1:18:32

in it. And then Crow Daddy, you've got Zayn

1:18:34

Mclarnan who's an excellent actor. And then also there's

1:18:36

so much distinctive about him. Yeah. So

1:18:38

it's like the casting was so on point. I

1:18:41

mean, aside, Flanagan doesn't do much to develop anyone

1:18:43

beyond those three, really. No, no. But like- He

1:18:46

doesn't need- Yeah, he doesn't- Well, that's the- Yeah,

1:18:48

I was gonna say, the girl in the movie theater

1:18:51

is interesting. But I actually even outlined a section in

1:18:53

this book and my notes are, this is

1:18:55

a perfect summation of the lunacy of this

1:18:57

book. And it's on page

1:18:59

488 of obviously the pocketbook

1:19:02

position. And this

1:19:04

is the line that begins chapter seven of this

1:19:06

section. Steamhead Steve,

1:19:08

Baba the Red, Bent Dick,

1:19:11

and Bent, yeah, Bent Dick and

1:19:13

Greedy G were playing a

1:19:16

desultory game of canasta in the bounder

1:19:18

that Greedy and Dirty Phil shared when

1:19:20

the shrieks began. And James Joyce

1:19:22

now? I was like, what the fuck am I

1:19:24

reading? Is this Finnegan Legg? It's just a bunch

1:19:27

of nonsense. It's like

1:19:29

an old Tom Waits software. Yeah. It

1:19:32

really does. But how do you

1:19:34

not read that and go, what the fuck

1:19:36

am I reading? And this is on page 488, so

1:19:39

clearly you're in it at that point. But

1:19:42

even then, there's just so many sections of this novel where

1:19:44

I'm reading it and I'm just like, oof,

1:19:46

King, I love you, but you're- I

1:19:48

love the Steamhead Steve. I think the

1:19:50

context of the word steam, and I

1:19:53

think I just kept thinking about the

1:19:55

video game platform. Like Steam's game. They're

1:19:57

all gamers. And I guess he's saying- He's

1:20:00

equating it to being addicted to it the way you would

1:20:02

heroin like how he's a hot that but steamhead Sounds

1:20:05

like a fucking locomotive Why

1:20:08

does he get that name? But

1:20:18

the thing that's like the thing that's your

1:20:20

point Randall is that like see if you're seeing these

1:20:22

characters on screen and you're not seeing their fucking idiotic

1:20:25

name Every second they

1:20:28

talk there's a difference there. I agree I

1:20:30

agree in these and being like oh well

1:20:32

bent dicks at this and you know oh

1:20:34

here comes you know greedy Gee, we laugh

1:20:36

more than that Gee,

1:20:38

it's like a rapper Bob

1:20:43

or you know Dan you know bill or you know

1:20:45

I mean going back to the

1:20:47

spring scene Connection like

1:20:49

in like early spring scene like that song spirit in

1:20:52

the night. It's like Red

1:20:57

bad cartooning I was hoping that out a lot of

1:20:59

people come out But

1:21:04

yeah, I mean it's you know

1:21:08

That part makes it very hard yeah, it really

1:21:11

does and and it doesn't help that like there

1:21:14

they're so endowed in in sexual

1:21:16

you know sexuality and being promiscuous

1:21:19

and and just being just like

1:21:22

Disgusting fucking people like I mean he goes out

1:21:24

of his way, and I'm gonna go pull up

1:21:26

the sections real quick But it's not like what

1:21:28

page 189 he goes so out of his way

1:21:31

to show just how disgusting it is It's like

1:21:33

you know at one point like someone's like it's

1:21:36

all about the toilets darling the

1:21:38

cock-a-sucka Don't come till Thursday Or

1:21:40

it's like in one hand in

1:21:43

a bright red strappy undershirt in one

1:21:45

no no he was like this

1:21:47

is what he says Mr.. Cozy opened it eventually

1:21:49

he was a small man with a big belly

1:21:52

and it currently encased in a bright red Strapy

1:21:54

undershirt in one hand he held a can of

1:21:56

pap's were given another hand was a mustard smeared

1:21:58

brat wrapped in a of

1:22:00

spongy white bread. Like fucking

1:22:02

Christ, I don't want to be with these

1:22:04

people. I know, it's

1:22:06

unpleasant. And I think that

1:22:09

there's like, I think it's the thing is like, you

1:22:13

know, we start with Dan, it

1:22:15

all feels so gritty and real, you know? I

1:22:17

mean, well, when we start in the, and we'll

1:22:19

talk more about like the prologue,

1:22:21

I guess, like when we actually see Danny

1:22:24

with Hollerin, like some of that stuff for me

1:22:26

is in the word processor and in like, the

1:22:28

cemetery and stuff, like sort of those early things.

1:22:30

But then once we get into him as an

1:22:32

adult, there's a gritty quality to it that I

1:22:34

find very authentic. Him bottoming

1:22:36

out and everything. There's that story about him like

1:22:38

sleeping under the bridge. You're like for a 30

1:22:40

something, 40 something guy, that's

1:22:44

like so sad and so rough, you know? And

1:22:46

then when he gets to that town, the

1:22:49

way that he characterizes Billy and a lot of

1:22:51

the other guys, there's such a warmth to it.

1:22:53

This train is there, it's a small town.

1:22:55

It's like, I love these King narratives where

1:22:58

people sort of enter into these small towns and

1:23:00

sort of reinvent themselves, which is a trophy, as

1:23:02

he used it in the Institute. Oh yeah, he

1:23:04

used it forever. And I love

1:23:06

it, I love that kind of thing about this,

1:23:08

it's like an old American dream kind of idea,

1:23:11

which is that no matter what you've done in

1:23:13

your past, no matter what, you can wander into

1:23:15

a small town and rebuild your life, which is

1:23:17

probably at this point in time not real anymore.

1:23:20

But I love the sort of like, I love

1:23:22

the warmth and the kindness and sort of the

1:23:25

hard fought redemption that comes with

1:23:27

that whole bit. And I

1:23:29

love the way he characterizes the town,

1:23:31

the AAA meetings, Danny's relationships with Billy and

1:23:34

the other guys, the work that he

1:23:36

does, the hospice work, it's also interesting.

1:23:38

And there's such a cool vibe to

1:23:40

it that feels like King. Then suddenly

1:23:42

we're on the

1:23:44

road with the other people. Weasy

1:23:46

bumper stickers, it's themey old. The

1:23:49

whole vibe changes. And I mean,

1:23:52

you can obviously change vibes in a book, like you

1:23:54

want the vibe of a chapter to mirror the people,

1:23:57

but it's like, and it doesn't, it's not

1:23:59

like it needs to be pleasant. But there's something so

1:24:01

it's like it's like the whole vibe is pound

1:24:03

cake. You know what I mean? Yeah, like it

1:24:05

feels that way it's like and it's not just

1:24:07

the sex stuff It's just a general Dumminess like

1:24:10

the general grossness of it all like the fact

1:24:12

that Nobody it just feels like

1:24:14

it needs a shower the entire thing and then

1:24:16

you've got the other vibe of like the whole

1:24:18

abra Story which feels like we're seeing the origin

1:24:20

story for a superhero. Well, it's a nice. Yeah,

1:24:22

it's this idealized kind of thing But the way

1:24:24

you paint this right now is kind of I

1:24:26

think he's conceit like I think because he talks

1:24:28

about how You know, he describes the

1:24:30

people almost like that, you know, he

1:24:33

writes that America is this living body you know, like

1:24:35

the highways are the arteries and And

1:24:38

he almost sees them like as a virus Sorts

1:24:40

and so like in his conception of this

1:24:42

as I mentioned before came from his drives

1:24:45

back, you know To and from from Maine

1:24:47

to Florida and his disdain is so right

1:24:49

is so like indicative in these quotes Well,

1:24:51

it's this is from the Brezhnekin interview also

1:24:55

Driving back and forth from Maine to Florida, which

1:24:57

I do twice a year I'm always seeing all

1:24:59

these recreational vehicles the boundaries in the way to

1:25:01

Bay goes I always think to myself who is

1:25:03

in those things you pass them a thousand times

1:25:05

at rest stops They're always the ones wearing the

1:25:08

shirts. They say God does not deduct from

1:25:10

a lifespan time Try the time spent fishing

1:25:12

I fucked that one up. They're

1:25:14

always lined up at the McDonald's slowing the

1:25:16

whole line down And I always thought to

1:25:18

myself there's something really sinister about these people

1:25:20

because they're so unobtrusive yet so pervasive I

1:25:22

just wanted to use that it would be

1:25:24

the perfect way to travel around America and

1:25:26

be unobtrusive You're really some sort of awful

1:25:28

creature and I agree with them. I think

1:25:30

that's a good smart idea Yeah, and I

1:25:32

like that you could you know using that

1:25:34

we were discussing how like there's this real

1:25:36

gross gnarly juxtaposition That they do feel

1:25:39

like the virus that this book tries to posit. However,

1:25:42

you also have to spend time with that

1:25:44

virus And

1:25:46

you start coughing it also it feels inauthentic Like

1:25:49

I think that's what it comes down to and

1:25:51

I think yeah Cartoony is a great one like

1:25:53

I think that's like my issue is when I

1:25:55

say like the juxtaposition and the different vibes I'm

1:25:57

like, you know, I know in my head. I'm

1:25:59

like That's not a bad thing. That is actually

1:26:01

a good thing because he's yeah really trying to

1:26:03

cultivate the world But it just feels so inauthentic

1:26:06

It feels like he's trying so hard to make

1:26:08

it gross and he's trying so hard to make

1:26:10

it Alienating for us as a reader

1:26:12

and but the thing is like a

1:26:14

there's a I mean I love King but there's a

1:26:16

little bit of classism during like in the way he's

1:26:18

talking about these people But at the same time I

1:26:21

also get annoyed when I'm out of you know by

1:26:23

the people who hold up lines and class food Restaurants

1:26:25

because you know they they're 50 and they

1:26:27

still haven't learned how to like order at somewhere Although I

1:26:29

do like the idea of King being in a McDonald's and

1:26:31

being a guy that somebody for holding up the line I

1:26:33

just want to get a quarter pounder But

1:26:36

like I think that I think

1:26:38

that maybe his disdain for this

1:26:40

class of people Kind of

1:26:43

bleeds through in ways that make it cartoony It

1:26:45

lacks the it lacks the intimacy the vulnerability

1:26:47

the empathy that he usually has for his

1:26:49

characters You know and it kind of connects

1:26:51

with the way that he views a lot

1:26:54

of the conservatives on Twitter right now Oh, yeah,

1:26:56

granted look I hate him also But they come

1:26:58

from this like 10 more one-star. I'm sure they

1:27:02

But but the way But

1:27:11

the But

1:27:13

the funny thing is is that like that

1:27:15

the way that he he paints the other

1:27:17

side is In such you know, Jurassic

1:27:19

broad strokes in the same way that he does

1:27:21

with the you know, the true not here

1:27:23

Yeah, so I wonder if there was that sort

1:27:25

of a and again, it's like that nationalism I'm

1:27:27

talking about before I'm wondering if that's something that

1:27:29

did get to him. Yeah, he's just like Obviously,

1:27:35

but how do is this I

1:27:37

think this is pre Nationalism

1:27:39

becoming uses a term as much

1:27:41

as as it is today. Like do you think that kind

1:27:43

of like well think about this Let's think about the Tea

1:27:45

Party. I mean not to get on the politics. I want

1:27:48

to lose our followers Yeah,

1:27:51

I mean I think that I think that the

1:27:53

divide pre-Trump was there yeah I mean, this is

1:27:55

this is published in the second, you know

1:27:58

term for Obama. Yeah, we I can't

1:28:00

go down this road because people are gonna fucking lose

1:28:02

their minds. But either way, it was there for sure.

1:28:04

But I agree with you. I don't know if

1:28:06

it was that embellished as it is today. But

1:28:09

I do think he tied. Even

1:28:12

people he's seeing in the South, I mean,

1:28:14

a lot of them probably would be affiliated

1:28:17

with that in some way. I'll

1:28:21

get my soapbox now. To

1:28:27

that note, I think

1:28:29

Rosa Hadd is similarly unjustified with

1:28:31

her as a villain as well.

1:28:38

She's just painted as this sex object most of

1:28:40

the time. What depth do you really get other

1:28:42

than the fact that she's supposed to have these

1:28:44

powers? She wants this MacGuffin,

1:28:46

which is Abra. I guess the

1:28:48

depth for me comes from... I

1:28:50

don't think there's a lot. There's no relationship. Her

1:28:53

and Crow Daddy were the ones I at least

1:28:55

found somewhat interesting. Crow Daddy because he embodies... This

1:28:58

is more of an archetypal thing. I love

1:29:00

Crow Daddy because he embodies one of my favorite

1:29:02

King archetypes, which is the mid-level heavy.

1:29:05

The villain beneath the villain. And

1:29:07

that's like... Obviously, I've talked

1:29:09

about bullies on this podcast a gazillion times, but

1:29:11

that's sort of the role that Henry Bowers occupies

1:29:14

and Buddy Repperton occupies. Those characters

1:29:16

where they are... Or even Lloyd Henry.

1:29:18

They are the right hand of

1:29:20

the villain in a lot of ways. I like

1:29:22

those characters because I tend to find them to

1:29:24

be deceptively interesting and rooted. And Crow Daddy is

1:29:27

definitely interesting in that respect for sure. Yeah, but

1:29:29

we still don't get that much. And you don't

1:29:31

get any real relationship. But with Rose, I think

1:29:33

for me, the depth starts to come

1:29:35

later when you see the desperation and

1:29:38

the fear of losing the scene, losing the people,

1:29:40

the whole edifice crumbling. The idea that the walls

1:29:42

are closing in on her. Even if

1:29:44

that does lower the stakes somewhat because I never

1:29:46

really felt like she was ever I

1:29:49

do at the same time, I

1:29:51

find that an interesting dynamic, character dynamic. And

1:29:53

I guess that's where my interest in Rose

1:29:56

came from, at least later in the book.

1:29:58

Early in the book, I really... I'm just

1:30:00

like, blah. Although

1:30:02

I find Snake by Andy, I

1:30:05

almost wish that we spent more time with

1:30:07

her as a person, like pre-vampire, because the

1:30:09

scene of her with the guy in the

1:30:12

movie theater is really cool. It's really interesting

1:30:14

and it's a really neat way to show

1:30:16

that the Shining has multiple kind of arms.

1:30:18

You can use it for evil. And

1:30:21

I love that kind of concept of this

1:30:23

woman who uses it for more nefarious purposes.

1:30:25

Although, I mean, she's killing pedophiles,

1:30:28

basically. But she's also, well, is she killing them? I

1:30:31

can't remember. She's a good job, son. No, she's scratching,

1:30:33

she leaves the mark on them Right,

1:30:35

so I guess she's not even really using it for evil. Rob

1:30:37

pedophiles, I don't give a shit. But it's like, but

1:30:40

there is something darker about her that I find

1:30:42

interesting. And I feel like it's one of those

1:30:44

instances where because Snake by Andy wasn't

1:30:46

immortal, she was just a human with the normal

1:30:48

story, well, quasi-immortal to quote

1:30:51

the synopsis, we

1:30:53

actually learn more about her past and her

1:30:55

upbringing than we do about anybody

1:30:57

else in the true knot. Like we get glimpses

1:30:59

to like how far back the history of the

1:31:01

true knot goes, but we don't get intimate character

1:31:03

details like we do with Andy. And that's one

1:31:06

of the reasons I get bumped up because Snake

1:31:08

by Andy's character almost functions just to show the

1:31:10

process of turning someone into the vampire and then

1:31:12

she kind of just drops off. She's

1:31:15

around, she's part of like the climax and everything. And

1:31:17

when she dies, it's an event, but it's more of

1:31:19

an event in the movie than it is in the

1:31:21

book. She's literally Ellen Page from an inception. Yeah, which

1:31:23

is a bummer because I find her out of the

1:31:26

true knot to be the most interesting. I do

1:31:28

too, which is why when she perishes, it's

1:31:30

actually affecting because you're like, I do

1:31:33

wish you were able to stick around a little bit

1:31:35

more. Yeah, but it's like the empathy's not there because

1:31:37

we didn't spend enough time with her, but like the

1:31:39

sadness of her dying is like, oh, I would have

1:31:41

liked more from character. Which

1:31:44

is kind of like an issue with Latter-day King for me. I've

1:31:47

noticed this in the Institute too. And I guess when I

1:31:49

say Latter-day King, it's like, I'm not talking about 1122 or

1:31:51

Under the Dome, which are like two

1:31:53

books I absolutely love. And characters are

1:31:56

just really fine. Yeah, they're so vividly drawn.

1:31:58

It's like, I just think about the end. Institute

1:32:00

and Elevation and The

1:32:03

Outsider, those are books that I like, well

1:32:05

not Elevation, but these are books that I

1:32:08

like, but the characters aren't

1:32:10

as rich as they could be. Like

1:32:12

the villains especially, I want them to

1:32:14

be more imposing, I want them to

1:32:16

carry more layers to embody more archetypes,

1:32:18

I want them to do

1:32:20

all the things that king villains used to do,

1:32:22

whereas, you know, because then I think about Under

1:32:24

the Dome, where you've got Junior, who's like to

1:32:27

me, like one of the

1:32:29

best king, I love

1:32:31

the king character. He's such a great

1:32:33

character, like just so fucking evil, man.

1:32:35

To be fair, two of those

1:32:37

books were manuscripts from like the same time.

1:32:39

I know, right? You know? I know. So

1:32:41

I wonder if there were, you know, the

1:32:44

diamonds were already there. The diamonds were already there.

1:32:47

Should we get off the true knot? Yeah, let's get off the true

1:32:49

knot. Let's talk about the good knot. I think we need to refer

1:32:51

to them as the true. We don't know. The

1:32:54

true knot. Is that what

1:32:56

he calls them, the book, right? Yeah. The

1:32:59

true. One of our

1:33:01

listeners got mad at us when he said like, you

1:33:03

guys aren't even down with the true, are you? Or

1:33:05

something like that, like in the comments. It just made

1:33:07

me laugh. I was like, not really, sorry. Yeah. So

1:33:10

what about the, what would

1:33:12

be the opposite? The false,

1:33:14

un-laced. The false

1:33:16

un-laced sneakers? The false un-laced shoelace.

1:33:19

Well, why don't we talk about

1:33:22

some of Danny's buddies? Yeah.

1:33:25

We talked a lot about Danny already. I think that gets

1:33:27

pretty good. We'll touch on Danny

1:33:29

more as we talk about him in

1:33:31

relation to. Now with buddies, are you

1:33:33

referring to his contemporaries or his ghost

1:33:36

friends from that? Oh. His

1:33:38

ghosties? His ghosties. I

1:33:41

think I'm actually interested because one

1:33:43

of the things I liked about the movie was that there

1:33:45

was a lot of streamlining in

1:33:47

terms of the way that the friends

1:33:49

get involved. It's like, there's

1:33:51

a bit of insomnia. I'm gonna make a little

1:33:53

insomnia reference here. A book that I think I

1:33:56

would stand for over most people on the pod,

1:33:58

because I do like that book. But there's

1:34:00

a bit that I always feel really dumb, which is like Ralph,

1:34:03

the main character, bonds with this pharmacist named

1:34:05

Joe early in the book. And then later

1:34:07

in the book, for pretty much no reason,

1:34:10

Joe becomes part of the climax. He's just

1:34:12

there because I think King liked riding him

1:34:14

and he just shows up. He's

1:34:16

driving a car with one of the characters with

1:34:18

one of the main characters in it. And then

1:34:20

I just have a Ralph going, Joe, how did

1:34:22

you get involved? It's kind of like that Seinfeld

1:34:24

episode where Jerry's in the confessional

1:34:26

booth and he's talking

1:34:29

to the priest and the priest is like, didn't like his joke.

1:34:31

And then all of a sudden he turns and then George

1:34:33

is like, Jerry, I need to talk to you. Yeah. And

1:34:36

I guess for me, I actually

1:34:38

quite like Dr. John and Billy

1:34:40

and who's the guy who is

1:34:42

like his sponsor, Casey? I

1:34:45

believe Casey. Oh, that's right. Because in the

1:34:47

movie, they fold all that. They fold them. Well, they

1:34:49

fold them. They fold them. Smart, to be

1:34:51

honest. It is. But I'd say in

1:34:53

the book, I like those characters in terms of being support

1:34:56

system for Danny. I think they're part of the narrative that

1:34:58

I really respond to in the book, which is Danny's recovery.

1:35:00

Which in a case where someone's getting sober and going

1:35:03

to meetings and everything, it probably wouldn't just be one

1:35:05

guy in the movie. You would have a

1:35:07

whole network of that. And I just think

1:35:09

that suits the book a little bit better than it does. Yeah.

1:35:11

I kind of wish that King would have gone full our town

1:35:14

and just spent like 300 pages with like

1:35:17

different sections of this town. They had a lot

1:35:19

kind of like that for a while. Yeah,

1:35:22

exactly. I love the

1:35:24

ensemble pieces. And so I

1:35:27

enjoy in the book, I like spending time with Billy.

1:35:29

I like spending time with John. But at the same

1:35:31

time, I don't need them to be part of the

1:35:33

adventure. No. No, not at all.

1:35:35

They're always in the car and driving around with Danny.

1:35:37

And I like that they cut all that in the

1:35:39

book. One person drives,

1:35:41

which Danny could have technically done, although they make the...

1:35:44

I mean, King goes at great lengths

1:35:46

and great pains to explain that, well, if

1:35:48

we have two people, we could make this

1:35:50

trip overnight. And this is

1:35:52

why I'm here and all this other stuff. But

1:35:55

yeah, for me, I do prefer

1:35:57

the way that Flanagan streamlines this all in the

1:35:59

end, because like. Dr. John at some

1:36:01

point becomes just totally ineffective. Yeah, because

1:36:03

advice is just like, yeah,

1:36:05

it's crazy, but hey, I believe him, you know? Yeah, well,

1:36:08

we worry about that. Well, that's one of my bigger issues

1:36:10

with the book, which is that there's a lot of redundancy

1:36:12

in the book. There's a lot of explaining

1:36:14

things to characters like Abra's parents,

1:36:17

Dr. John, Billy, the

1:36:20

same explanations keep happening. And I remember getting so mad,

1:36:22

I'm like, King, you could have cut 75 pages

1:36:24

out of this book if you didn't reiterate everything

1:36:27

over and over again. And I, because I was

1:36:29

getting so annoyed, I have to sit here and

1:36:31

watch them explain this to Abra's parents. And Abra's

1:36:33

parents are not well-developed characters. They are very boring

1:36:36

characters. They're at the same level as the guy

1:36:38

in The Dark Knight that's just like, why aren't

1:36:40

we talking about this? Why aren't we talking about

1:36:42

this? They're literally... What

1:36:45

a weird thing to pull. Because all they

1:36:47

are, they're fixtures to keep the plot moving

1:36:49

and ask the right questions. And for me,

1:36:51

it's like, that's such a boring fucking thing

1:36:53

to read. And especially as you're mentioning, like,

1:36:56

I don't need to read this again. Let's

1:36:58

just keep this going. And

1:37:00

there are other more important characters that you

1:37:02

can devote time to. And

1:37:04

I guess if... I don't know

1:37:07

if we're talking about the Stone family

1:37:09

yet, but this revelation that you get at

1:37:11

the end, if they're related, has absolutely no

1:37:13

bearing on the story whatsoever than to

1:37:15

be a shock value thing in

1:37:17

the climax. I know. Well, I think we can

1:37:20

talk about that. It feels just

1:37:22

so happenstance. And I guess

1:37:24

the argument can be for, as though it

1:37:26

caused the wheel, everything's connected, whatever. But it

1:37:28

just feels like such a tacked on thing.

1:37:30

I don't know. Well, just like how Flanagan

1:37:32

completely excites. Oh, yeah. Yeah. Because it's that

1:37:34

hard. Yeah, there wasn't even really the appearance

1:37:36

or the haunting of it because they cast

1:37:38

a woman of color or a girl of

1:37:40

color to play Avra. So

1:37:43

it's just kind of like... And even Dave. Yeah, yeah.

1:37:45

And so it, to me, was just kind of like...

1:37:48

I kind of appreciated Flanagan just being like, yeah, we

1:37:50

don't need that. And then... But

1:37:52

I will say, I like in the movie,

1:37:55

that they actually kill Avra's dad.

1:37:57

Because it ups the stakes, man. There's

1:37:59

these stakes. Like you're like nobody dies. Yeah,

1:38:01

like that made crow daddy infinitely scarier cuz

1:38:03

he jammed a knife in his chest Yeah,

1:38:06

we were like Mike

1:38:08

said before because I asked you guys before seeing the movie

1:38:10

I'm like, well, how closely does he adhere to the book?

1:38:12

I knew that the overlook would still be around cuz they'd

1:38:14

showed it and everything But I'm like, is it just the

1:38:17

same finale just transports the video overlook and I

1:38:19

think it was you Mike was said that oh

1:38:21

The whole third act is different. There's way more stakes

1:38:23

and that cuz yeah The book does

1:38:25

deflate a little bit for me once we get to