0:00

Hi, I'm Kristen and I'm her little

0:02

brother William. We're from the podcast guide to

0:04

the unknown We only talk about scary stuff and

0:06

have a good time doing it come join

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the scary fun everyone wherever you get

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your podcast You'll find guide to the

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unknown Good

0:17

morning afternoon or evening and

0:19

welcome to the bloody disgusting

0:22

network The passage

0:24

of time will now bring you to something

0:26

strange unique and

0:28

idiosyncratic Have

0:32

a good time My

0:36

friendship to all of you precludes my

0:39

involvement with any one of you But

0:41

if you want to make love then

0:43

I do too and I'll be right

0:45

there behind you All

0:48

in the name of oh All

0:51

in the name of oh All

0:54

in the name of oh Greetings

0:59

happy slappers. It's me. Happy slapin Randall

1:02

here to welcome you to the losers

1:04

clubs Hodges era

1:07

no, not my codges English screenwriter

1:09

film director playwright novelist But rather

1:11

bill Hodges the dogged horned-up detective

1:13

whose shadow runs long over Stephen

1:15

King's latter-day work That's right

1:18

us losers are cruising up in

1:20

a Mercedes s-class not to run

1:22

over some average Joe's outside of

1:24

a job fair But to unpack

1:26

this 2014 novel which King himself

1:28

has described as his first hard-boiled

1:30

detective book before we

1:33

get into the world of this book and

1:36

Its history and its pound cake because

1:38

there's so much pound cake Let's

1:41

go around and meet everyone Jen say hello

1:43

and tell me did you are

1:46

you in day one Hodges

1:48

fan? Hey,

1:50

this is Jen happy clapping

1:52

Adams because Holly says that

1:54

variation later And

1:57

I would not say I was a

1:59

day one Hodges fan, but I

2:01

was a day one reader. I remember

2:03

getting this And

2:05

like reading it on a trip like a long

2:07

car ride and like not being able to put

2:09

it down like just the end Of it. It

2:11

just goes so fast. I was like God, I

2:13

know what's gonna happen and really

2:15

enjoying it I don't although I will

2:17

say I have never liked Hodges And

2:21

I still don't like Hodges, but I got this

2:23

from my dad like right after he retired I'm

2:25

not sure if he's ever read it but yeah,

2:28

you know There's I've got a lot of thoughts

2:30

on Hodges But I think I've stopped

2:32

buying people in my family King books because they never

2:34

read them Exactly. I know it's

2:36

just like it hurts you when you keep wanting to

2:38

ask if they've read it yet And they keep my

2:41

dad's like just buy me a book about baseball Which

2:45

I well, hey what a Kings books. Yeah,

2:47

he's a big about baseball amazing How

2:49

familiar are you Jen with like crime fiction

2:51

detective fiction? Is that something that you ever

2:54

followed extensively? Not really like

2:56

I watched a lot of law and order

2:58

and that's and then like I like true

3:00

crime for a while But yeah, this is

3:02

really maybe the first crime novel I've ever

3:05

finished because I think it's just not really

3:07

a genre that calls to me You know,

3:09

I'm not really a big fan of who

3:11

done it either Although this is not a

3:13

who done it but it just I

3:16

don't know It's never something I've been drawn to

3:18

like I need somebody to be gruesomely murdered and

3:20

there to be a ghost Yeah, then I'm

3:23

happy Well, I

3:26

had to bite my tongue because we're

3:28

not talking about ladder books yet So,

3:30

okay, let's move on Ashley say hello

3:32

and tell me about your experience with

3:34

mr. Mercedes Were you hitting the gas

3:36

on day one? Hello. This

3:38

is Ashley debt that

3:44

So funny story and I think I've told you on the show

3:46

before I Picked

3:48

up mr. Mercedes right when it hit

3:51

paperback, I think it was right right

3:53

around then and I

3:56

read about a third of it and I put it

3:58

away. I hated it I

4:00

hated it and then the next year

4:02

Stephen King has a new book out finders keepers

4:04

and This little lady picks

4:07

it up and starts reading and not a spoiler

4:09

for the next book, but you

4:11

don't right know That

4:13

it is a mr. Mercedes novel for quite some

4:15

time and all of a sudden it was like

4:17

wait What are they talking about? I remember this

4:20

car accident. Why do I remember this car accident?

4:22

How do I remember this weird girl named Holly

4:24

and then it was like holy shit. I'm reading

4:26

a sequel And I

4:29

never went back and read mr. Mercedes until

4:32

now this is my first well

4:34

read through of Mr.

4:37

Mercedes and I definitely liked it more this time.

4:39

So Sorry, I

4:42

was gonna say did you read end of watch like

4:44

yeah I ended up reading the rest of the

4:46

trilogy and watching the show when I came

4:48

out like I was a huge fan I just

4:50

for whatever reason Did not

4:52

hook me the first time I read it and

4:54

I put it down and yeah, how

4:57

about the fiction for you? So

4:59

I've always been a fan of like

5:01

I've read a ton of Harlan Coben

5:04

and Tammy Hogue Which

5:06

those aren't really like? They

5:08

are detective solving crimes, but it's definitely

5:10

not like a hard case crime Like

5:12

there's no vibe to it really they're

5:15

really easy beach reads Right,

5:17

but I never got into like growing up

5:19

I was never a huge like Agatha Christie

5:22

person a lot of

5:24

my friends read Agatha Christie, but No,

5:27

James. I'm feeling for you. No No,

5:30

but I did I always went to the you know

5:32

Barnes and Noble Their

5:34

bargain bin and they always

5:37

had like copies of Harlan Coben and

5:39

Tammy Hogue no offense guys You're prolific,

5:41

but that's where I would pick

5:43

them all up for three bucks and read them in

5:45

like a day. Oh totally Rachel

5:48

say hello and tell us tell

5:50

us a little bit about the Mercedes

5:52

s-class. Oh Boy,

5:55

yes. Hi. This is

5:57

Rachel around here. Superman.

6:01

And on. Mr.

6:03

A. Cds I read this. I think it must have been.

6:05

Like right when it came out today I remember

6:07

eating in the summer. Ah, I'm. And.

6:10

I like it. I love detective novels

6:12

and if anybody wants to go back

6:14

since escape feel so inclined those know

6:16

Colorado kid episodes as art. A lot

6:18

of of a series of novels and

6:20

crime novels insistence novels cause yeah I

6:22

eat that shit up love you wrote

6:24

one to I wrote one that when

6:26

I was in some him for a

6:28

citizen of bury it in the line

6:30

of like Sue Graphs and you know

6:32

she does like there are she did

6:34

like the A's for Alibi be as

6:37

for burglar up in of eight as

6:39

the mysteries so. I was very much

6:41

into those in middle school. Just like

6:43

you know, every normal middle school. Mom.

6:47

And. Then yeah, married against Clark? I don't know. I

6:49

think I got it from my mom who was also

6:51

reading a lot of that read a lot of Agatha

6:53

Christie so I was very excited to it Like. Dive

6:56

into Mister Mercedes. And so

6:58

there's a lot of things I like. About am specific

7:00

given the what's not so.

7:02

Great arm for this is

7:04

my third time. Reading. It

7:06

and you know it for what it is like.

7:09

I still have. A. Good

7:11

Blake good time with their yeah

7:13

I like don't have. A problem

7:15

like breathing through editor for me, it

7:17

doesn't necessarily like lag or drag or

7:19

whatever I still think that's fine. Especially

7:22

in the summer, it does feel very

7:24

lights Mom as far as like that

7:27

the Mercedes Sl Five hundred I love

7:29

the how there's an author noted the

7:31

and Were Kings mercifully points out like

7:33

yeah that whole thing about like the

7:36

key thing and like the Pc I

7:38

can actually do that on this. Was

7:41

I'm sure he wrote like the entire

7:43

thing and than that sector and was

7:46

like looks because I have to respond

7:48

so much time about that fucking t

7:50

that like yeah it's so much of

7:52

the book read yeah than somebody said

7:54

you know you can't do that of

7:56

Soviet Hour or the Mercedes. Lawyers were

7:58

like you know you. You can't do

8:00

that. Yeah. This is a luxury car

8:03

after all, and it is. These are

8:05

not expensive cars, and it's a pretty

8:07

nice car, and they made this particular

8:09

class for a pretty long period of

8:11

time. So odds are you've seen these

8:13

cars driving around on the

8:15

street. They also come in a convertible. Yeah,

8:19

pretty nice. Through job pairs. Nice

8:21

fancy car. I don't know. They

8:23

don't look that super cool to me. It would

8:25

make sense that somebody like Olivia Trelon was driving

8:28

this thing around. I was going

8:30

to say he doesn't spend a lot of time

8:32

describing the car as opposed to other cars

8:35

and other novels. So

8:38

I never really in my head sat

8:40

down to picture what the Mercedes looked

8:42

like. If it had a ghost in it,

8:44

then he would have spent a lot more time with it. Yeah,

8:46

that's true. I need all my cars to come

8:48

with a ghost in it. Yeah,

8:54

a couple of us were talking before we recorded,

8:56

and we were familiar with the audiobook. I listened

8:58

to at least half of the audiobook,

9:00

and then I read the other half. The

9:02

great Will Patton, star of Armageddon, and

9:05

a thousand other movies that are better than Armageddon.

9:10

He does the audiobook, and I think he does A

9:12

Few Kings, right? He does the

9:14

whole series. He does the whole series,

9:16

okay. He's so fantastic. I was just

9:18

saying I don't do a lot of

9:20

fiction audiobooks. I usually

9:22

do nonfiction, so there's no voices really.

9:26

I really came to appreciate, I guess, the art

9:29

of doing narration and

9:32

the different voices and the different tones and

9:34

the ways that you have to convey vocally

9:37

nonverbal punctuation or

9:40

emojis. Because

9:43

in this, there's emojis, right? So it's like

9:45

he has to convey some of that stuff.

9:48

I was really impressed with it, but

9:50

I have one bone to pick with

9:54

people who read audiobooks. Well, men

9:56

specifically. I've

9:58

listened to about five or so. fiction

10:01

audiobooks and every single guy

10:03

reads every woman like

10:06

they talk like this. Well,

10:09

we do talk like this. Well, how did you

10:11

ever heard us talk? All

10:15

breathy. Yeah, it's like, ah, Detective

10:17

Hodges, it's so good to see

10:19

you. And I'm just like, it's

10:21

like ASMR, which I hate, like

10:23

ASMR makes my skin crawl. And

10:26

like, that's the way every

10:29

person that I've heard read an audiobook,

10:31

even like listening to, like I recently

10:33

listened to American

10:36

tabloid, the James Ellroy book, and then

10:38

like the Ursula Le Guin

10:40

book, like the lap of heaven, I was

10:42

in like those are in a couple others,

10:44

but every single one, all the women talk

10:46

the exact same. And it was in this

10:48

like, breathy, breathy, seductive, weird thing. And it

10:50

just like, started driving me crazy. And Will

10:52

Patton was absolutely doing it, like whenever one

10:54

spoke in this. And I love him. And

10:56

it's he certainly was like, it

10:58

was a good performance, but I'm like, women

11:01

must be able to talk another way. And I'm on three

11:04

of them. So I'm looking forward

11:06

to study you. Spoiler alert, I

11:08

mean, it's better than saying, well,

11:10

this is what they sound like.

11:13

Um, the pound cake

11:15

in this especially was hard to

11:17

listen to, because I also listened

11:19

to the Will Patton audiobook first.

11:21

Me too. And that's always hard,

11:23

I think when you have a,

11:26

usually a man, he's narrating both

11:29

the female and male or male

11:31

male, whatever, whatever the sexual situation

11:33

is. It's weird when it's

11:36

one voice doing both. Like it's hard.

11:38

You know, that's

11:40

a rough day in the booth. Oh, yeah.

11:43

Or, you know, a good day in the booth.

11:47

So, wait, are we all, did we

11:49

all listen to this audiobook? I think

11:51

so. I feel like I am winning

11:53

y'all in my battle to like, like

11:56

take over the world with audiobooks. That's,

11:58

that's very happening. It's happening. It's

12:00

definitely, I think getting a dog helped

12:02

because, or getting dogs help because when

12:05

I'm walking them, you know, it's like, yeah,

12:07

that's when I listen and you, and you

12:09

rack up a lot more minutes than you

12:11

think, just like during walks. Like

12:13

I realize how much progress I'm making. And uh,

12:15

and I was doing, I was telling them as

12:17

well, like I did, I had to

12:19

do some of it on like 1.5, you know, because

12:22

I had tried to finish it and then you lose

12:24

some of the nuance and some of the good stuff,

12:26

but you know, it is a nice option to have.

12:28

Yeah. 1.2 is about my, my

12:30

good. Yeah. Yep. Yeah.

12:33

That's smart. Okay, cool. Let's,

12:36

uh, let's hop into the history in

12:38

a section we call the dairy public

12:40

library. Do you have Albert

12:42

in a can? You

12:46

do. Well, you better let the poor

12:48

guy out. My hand. Can I have your go?

12:50

Can I have your go, please? No. No.

12:53

No. No. No.

12:56

No. No. No. No.

13:01

No. No. No. No.

13:04

No. No. No. No.

13:08

No. No. No.

13:11

No. No. No.

13:14

No. Well,

13:45

I said, I'm glad we got three seasons in Mr. Mercedes. Cause

13:47

I quite liked the show. Anyway. It's

13:51

And all three aired on the audience network. Uh, I

13:53

believe, yeah. Because I remember

13:55

by the time that hit peacock, the whole

13:57

series had. Yeah. I think you're right.

14:00

And they sent me a swag box and

14:04

I was kind of bad because I

14:08

didn't like

14:11

they wanted an unboxing video and I only did

14:13

one take of it and I was kind of

14:15

like because I thought there was just gonna be

14:18

a bunch of junk in it because every swag

14:20

box I've gotten is usually pretty shitty and this

14:22

one actually had like a Google camera in it

14:24

and like a copy of Finders Keepers like one

14:26

of those like security cameras but I was but

14:28

I made jokes about how they just want to

14:31

spy on me and stuff like that and I

14:33

think they appreciated that. They didn't use

14:35

the footage. Yeah

14:37

so I

14:39

don't get swag boxes anymore which is

14:42

kind of a bummer but you know it is

14:44

what it is I can't complain so okay cool.

14:46

It's not price to pay for your privacy you

14:48

know. Yeah I gave the cam to a friend

14:50

of mine who has babies because I'm like well

14:53

you'll actually make use of this. I'll just use

14:55

it to like you know spy on my neighbors.

14:57

For the bits. Yeah just for the bits. My

15:00

neighbors love a good bit especially when

15:02

it's invasive to their privacy. They're the

15:04

best bits. Yes.

15:06

So King first teased this book during a

15:09

talk at the University of Massachusetts Lowell on

15:11

December 7th 2012. There

15:13

he said he was writing a crime novel about a

15:15

retired policeman being taunted by a murderer. The

15:18

following year he stated that while it

15:20

was started prior to the Boston Marathon

15:22

bombings Mr. Mercedes involves a terrorist plot

15:24

which is too creepily close for comfort.

15:27

So yeah this story was actually inspired

15:29

by a 2011 incident

15:31

in Cleveland when a woman drove

15:33

her car into a crowd gathered

15:35

at a McDonald's job fair. She

15:38

only luckily only four people were injured nobody was

15:41

killed. King told this story in a

15:44

few different interviews but here's and I

15:46

think he kind of says different stuff

15:48

each time. So I want to read

15:51

each one but actually first I'm going to just

15:53

going to read a little bit from the actual story

15:55

from the the Cleveland

15:58

Plain dealer. So

16:00

yeah, four people were injured in a

16:02

melee Tuesday outside the McDonald's restaurant where

16:04

managers were handing out job applications. Police

16:06

were called at 149 when about a

16:08

group of women fighting and people being

16:10

struck by a car. Officers

16:13

were told that two women had arrived at

16:15

the McDonald's in a silver infinity and joined

16:17

another group of women standing in line to

16:19

see employment. An argument turned physical, then the

16:21

two women got back into their car. The

16:23

driver opened her door, put the car in

16:25

reverse, and hit the gas. The door struck

16:27

four people as she drove out of the

16:29

lot. The driver

16:32

kept going but witnesses blah blah blah. So the

16:34

passenger was a 22 year old Cleveland woman. She

16:36

was arrested and three adults and a 17 year

16:38

old girl were taken to Metro Health Medical Center

16:40

with minor injuries. So could have been a lot

16:42

worse, but but

16:44

still pretty scary. Especially because

16:47

you know, and we can talk about this a

16:49

little bit more, but there

16:51

were around this time, because I

16:53

remember when the book came out,

16:55

it did feel eerily prescient. Because

16:58

there were several stories about people

17:00

driving cars into public places,

17:03

including at South by Southwest, which I

17:06

believe it happened a year that I was

17:08

there. I just wasn't in the downtown strip,

17:10

but somebody like drove into

17:12

the crowd. And I think I don't think

17:14

anyone was killed, but I could be wrong.

17:16

But there was like definitely people injured. It's

17:18

so it's like one of those crimes that

17:20

it seems like I

17:23

didn't used to hear a lot about that. I feel like

17:25

I hear about a lot now, but

17:27

that might just be the state of our times,

17:30

which we can talk about later. But

17:33

that it's definitely a freaky

17:36

story. So here's some different

17:38

ways that King talked about it. He

17:41

said to the LA Times, I

17:43

was coming from Florida to Maine and I stopped for

17:45

the night at a motel in South Carolina. And there

17:47

was a story on TV about a woman who got

17:49

pissed at her boyfriend and he was applying for a

17:51

job at McDonald's. This was during the economic downturn. She

17:54

drove her car into a whole crowd of people to

17:56

get him and then reversed and ran over a whole

17:58

bunch more. I said that this would

18:00

be terrific. And

18:03

what if you have this ex cop and the guy

18:05

who did it kills a lot of people and starts to

18:07

torment him, starts to tease him. And then I thought

18:09

to myself, this isn't what you do. This is a detective

18:11

novel. This is not what you do. And then I

18:13

thought, really? Are you going to, after all these years and

18:15

all the work you've done, not write something you want

18:17

to write because it's a different genre? Because

18:20

even I, I can say to you, genre doesn't

18:22

matter. But to some degree, it does matter. The

18:24

same way you could say gender politics don't matter,

18:26

but they do. On some level it does because

18:28

we're socialized to believe that. But to my credit,

18:31

I went ahead and wrote it anyway. He

18:33

said it this way to USA Today. I

18:36

had this discussion with myself. Wait a minute.

18:38

You're in your sixties now. You're doing okay

18:40

financially. That's an understatement. It

18:42

isn't like you need to write a certain kind of story

18:44

in order to feed your family. Are you going to do

18:46

this? Are you going to punk out and be gutless? And

18:49

then he said to Rolling Stone, well, I have

18:51

a drive to succeed. I have a drive to

18:53

want to please people as many people as possible.

18:56

But that ends at a certain point where you

18:58

say, I'm not going to sell out and write

19:00

this one particular kind of thing. I

19:02

had a real argument with myself about Mr. Mercedes,

19:04

which is basically a straight suspense novel. I

19:07

had to sit down and have a discussion with myself

19:09

and say, do you want to do what your heart

19:11

is telling you should do? Or do you want to

19:13

do what people expect? Because if you only want to

19:15

write what people expect, what the fuck did you do

19:17

all this for? Why don't you write what

19:19

you want to write? So I wanted to

19:21

ask you all, why do you think he was so

19:23

anxious about this story in

19:25

particular? Because like Rachel, you mentioned this

19:28

earlier, he kind

19:30

of branched into this world of crime fiction,

19:33

publishing a few novels in

19:35

the years leading up to this, The Colorado

19:38

Kid and Joyland with an imprint called Hard

19:40

Case Crime. So why do you

19:42

think this one was so different? Why do

19:44

you think he had anxiety with this one

19:46

and not the others? Jen,

19:49

what do you think? Or go ahead. Oh,

19:52

I think part of it, you just said like the hard

19:54

case crime, like it was under that label a little bit.

19:56

So I think that kind of gave him an excuse like,

19:58

oh, yes, I wrote it. It's got my name. Them on

20:00

it for Bachmann book, but it's under the

20:02

hardly crime like. it's kind of a little

20:04

bit of a buffer, but this. I

20:07

mean it's just a Stephen King novel. My?

20:09

think he it? Yeah, that's like maybe a.

20:11

Little. Bit other also just the fact that.

20:14

It is a detective novel. There is

20:16

a detective at the heart of it,

20:18

one poor character and for some I.

20:21

I. Don't know. I mean stearic it's

20:23

it's it's interesting think of him being anxious about

20:25

the schools like chimp dude me he kinda note

20:27

your do think there are two. Years

20:29

of a lot of that and Athena also like an

20:31

acute like everybody. Gets imposter syndrome and we

20:34

know how much he loves so like

20:36

boss and how he until I get

20:38

a good regard. For some of these other

20:40

writers of detective novels and assess I think

20:42

he was probably just a anxious about creating

20:44

an actual character like that that could go

20:46

on to spawn other novels rather than just

20:49

kind of a one off where it's like

20:51

okay that one into and close the book

20:53

and we're done with that character. Yeah, I'm

20:55

having to flesh out that detective part of

20:57

in. A. Little bit more shun would

20:59

even. I think and wonder

21:01

if it's like misplaced anxiety to but

21:04

has like like he was saying and

21:06

I think like when it in his

21:08

sixties of novels like he can do

21:10

it every once and he's written departures

21:12

like. Eleven twenty

21:14

to sixty three is more of a

21:17

sign sex and time travel say novel

21:19

that the Dark Tower is more fantasy

21:21

horror and then we just row or

21:23

we just talked about you like it

21:25

not you like a darker with at

21:27

full dark no stars which has an

21:30

to. Big Driver and a good

21:32

marriage that actually steal. Very similar in

21:34

tone to this am in I think

21:36

we talked about in the episode like

21:38

when you're reading a good marriage and

21:40

the old detective comes to the door

21:43

you can kind of feel him working

21:45

out that this idea in his head

21:47

and I know that he got. Some

21:49

shit for writing about a story that

21:52

was real mp moment actually died and

21:54

I wonder is it was more the

21:56

fact that this is a real crime

21:58

that he's kind of base this on

22:00

that people actually died. I wonder if

22:02

that was kind of working in the

22:04

back of his head and.was maybe fueling

22:06

that nervousness because in to be honest

22:08

like yes it is a crime novel

22:10

and there aren't any supernatural elements in

22:12

this novel but it still feels like

22:14

king and it still feels like or

22:16

to you know like you know not

22:18

a straight crime novel. Yeah. I'm.

22:21

Actually, What do you think? Near. May be

22:23

because it's so graphic a sense of

22:25

as this at least can elder might

22:27

L A B the Uk as of

22:30

salvage. So growth and or not you

22:32

know that says it be because he

22:34

wrote Joy Land and Colorado Kid under

22:36

hard Case crime novels that he was

22:38

so anxious about this one. Because you

22:41

know. What he

22:43

enderle say some yeah. Would they condemned

22:45

at why would they be like lion She just

22:47

released. This is hard case crime. I wouldn't read

22:49

it if I knew was just said the Us

22:51

Straight Up Detective novel. And.

22:54

I I even remember. Well, it's hard

22:56

to pinpoint exactly what I hated about

22:58

it the first time that I read

23:01

it as like as I was listening,

23:03

this time as trying to figure out

23:05

why last off season. It's impossible because

23:07

I read the other books and I

23:10

saw the series, so who knows, but

23:12

it could be the fact that I

23:14

was, I was waiting for that sort

23:17

of mystical paranormal elements, supernatural elements to

23:19

enter. and it never did. Yahoo

23:21

and A I could have gotten bored that

23:23

might it will be some the very rude

23:25

or room to it's yeah or namely procedure.

23:27

Allow about a third were of the way into

23:30

it, it really becomes this. like. Well.

23:32

What's up with the key, you know? And he's

23:35

interviewing people and tracking evidence and it becomes like

23:37

a very different sort of vibe than King and

23:39

I. C S I think what really resonates with

23:41

me when I think about. Rachel.

23:44

use of those i think i'll ever these

23:46

guys said as is on points but the

23:48

idea of like a detective novel versus a

23:50

crime novels a little bit different because it's

23:53

you know when you look at colorado kid

23:55

which is essentially about like what a journalism

23:57

student talking to some like old mean i

24:00

you know, lifers, guys that he's written

24:02

a million times and that he knows

24:04

how to write so well. And then

24:06

Joyland is about this teenage boy and

24:08

he knows how to write teenagers like

24:10

going through big life changes, like stumbling

24:12

onto darkness. Like that's those are very

24:14

comfortable arenas for him. But I was

24:16

kind of thinking about it. And he

24:18

really doesn't write like, I mean, he

24:21

had Alan Pangborn, who was a cop,

24:23

but he doesn't really write detectives that

24:25

much. And I think I think he can,

24:28

like when we talk about John, because I was thinking too, I'm like,

24:30

dude, you navigated genres 1000 times,

24:33

like, but there is,

24:35

I think, a bigger wall between

24:38

detective fiction, and

24:41

let's say, like other variations of,

24:44

of horror and sci fi, because I think

24:46

he's shown through a lot of his work

24:48

that he's very comfortable in those genres. But

24:50

there is another tier that, you know, he

24:52

dedicates the book to James M. Cain, who

24:55

is kind of the guy who pioneered, in

24:57

a lot of ways, what we consider to

24:59

be hardboiled crime fiction. And

25:01

I think that he almost feels like he

25:03

I know he's been reading this stuff his

25:05

whole life. And he's stabbed at it in

25:07

a couple short stories like on these last

25:10

case and stuff, right. And so it's

25:12

like, he's, I feel like

25:14

he's always seen himself as a

25:16

tourist in that world. And to

25:18

actually build a whole book around

25:20

a detective is probably extremely daunting

25:22

for him. Because you guys have mentioned,

25:24

he loves this genre. And he admires

25:27

those writers. Yeah, make it original feel

25:29

original. Like I'm sure he's

25:31

just like, wait, is this my idea? Am

25:33

I pulling it from something else to make

25:35

sure it's not just super derivative? I think,

25:37

you know, he's got to be hyper aware.

25:39

So he doesn't release it. And then people are like, Oh,

25:41

yeah, this is just pulled from all these other classic things.

25:43

Because we're, you know, we're all products of what we

25:45

love and what we make. And sometimes it's hard to

25:48

separate like, wait, what was my idea? And

25:50

what am I just inspired by and

25:52

drawing inspiration from? And especially

25:54

in this genre, like that's, that's got to be so

25:56

hard to set. And so he's like, well, I'll put

25:58

a car in it. I

26:00

know how to killing of our in my. Marriage

26:03

and what? Reagan as much. As well. I also think

26:05

like, do we know now with hindsight that this

26:07

was the beginning of a new phase for have

26:09

Not just because he's gonna write six novels in

26:12

this world, but I wonder if it's the thing

26:14

that has been kind of lurking in the back

26:16

of his mind all this time. He loved these

26:18

types of novels, but he's always canals himself back

26:21

and now there's like he's kind of feeling like

26:23

if I open the floodgates I'm going to go

26:25

all the way like it's not just gonna be

26:27

in of Allah, It's not just going to be

26:30

a short story and gonna do it. And so

26:32

that's a little bit more hesitancy. I. Also.

26:34

Like. It feels like the

26:36

character might maybe hit a little close to home

26:38

see like I was telling I was saying. I

26:40

gave it to my dad and I think part

26:43

the reason he didn't read it as because it's

26:45

about a guy in retirement trying to figure out

26:47

what he's gonna do in of King. It's kind

26:49

of searching for the next phase of his life

26:51

like. Maybe. He doesn't quite

26:53

want to write about the struggles that he's having,

26:56

like sitting and trying to figure out what he's

26:58

gonna do next. You know just that is it

27:00

was. are. Really? Really? Opt I think and

27:02

something I want to talk about. Moron.

27:04

We talk about Hodges because this is

27:07

the first book about. Like. With

27:09

the protagonists like over sixty that he's

27:11

written since Insomnia, you know, yeah, early

27:13

nineties and he's you know, he was

27:16

get knocked around that age at that

27:18

time, and so it's I. You can

27:20

see his own anxieties about eight creeping

27:23

up through the character as well, so

27:25

we'll talk more about the another, but

27:27

I think that's a really smart observations.

27:30

Ah, I'm. Cause. So let's move

27:32

on. I'm. So he also added

27:34

this about the incident that inspired the novel. it

27:37

never crossed my mind that some of the

27:39

things that have happened since then with people

27:41

trying to kill and maim innocent people what

27:43

happened but you have to remember that those

27:46

people who do those things think they are

27:48

doing god's work unless you understand that you

27:50

can't really address their problem in a meaningful

27:52

way that's a quarter want to return to

27:54

a little bit later because i find it

27:56

interesting in the context of this book Well,

28:00

we can talk more about that. And

28:02

then just, he had some kind of overall

28:04

thoughts on detective crime fiction when speaking to

28:06

USA Today. He said, I've read detective novels

28:08

my whole life and I say that without

28:10

a shred of guilt, starting with Agatha Christie

28:12

when I was 12 years old. The way

28:14

I handled it was to go back to

28:16

Hitchcock where you really know everything and the

28:18

characters don't know anything. It's not a whodunit,

28:20

it's this game of wits with life and

28:22

death stakes we get to see from both

28:24

sides. And I guess, I

28:28

don't know, maybe I asked this question a

28:30

little bit later in our outline, but I'm

28:32

curious, I

28:34

guess I'll ask now, do you wish

28:36

it was a whodunit or do you

28:39

like the cat and mouse quality? Like,

28:41

yeah. Yeah, I like

28:43

it. And, you know, it

28:45

was hard for me to, it's

28:48

hard for me to say really,

28:50

because unfortunately, again, this was

28:52

a reread, first time I put it down, I've seen

28:54

the book, or I've seen the TV show, so I

28:56

kind of knew what was gonna happen. So

28:59

the whodunit aspect was taken out regardless.

29:02

But to me, I think

29:06

it worked, it reminded me of the stand. Like,

29:09

you've got the good versus the evil and

29:11

it's so clear and it's so- Very stark,

29:14

yeah. Yeah, very stark. And so to get

29:16

to go back and forth and see like

29:18

how close is good getting to evil, how

29:20

close is evil getting to good, who's going

29:23

to win, I think that

29:25

that was really exciting to swap the POVs

29:27

as opposed to, you know, and

29:29

we didn't really know everything, you know,

29:31

we didn't know exactly how Brady got

29:34

into the car. We assumed

29:36

because he works for this tech

29:38

company that he was her, you know,

29:40

IT guy, and maybe he stole a

29:42

key, but we didn't know exactly how.

29:45

So it was fun to see Hodges

29:47

put together those pieces to figure out how he

29:49

did get into the car. So

29:52

yeah, no, I love the cat and mouse aspect

29:54

of it. It's exciting. I

29:57

did too. I also don't- I

30:00

don't love Bill Hodges and I like

30:02

that we get another character and I

30:05

think it makes me like him more because

30:07

he is kind of outwitting Brady. I think

30:09

Brady is really fascinating, Randall. I cannot wait

30:11

to hear what you think of him too.

30:13

He's a bad boy. Bad boys, yeah. But

30:16

like I love the exchanges we get between

30:18

the two of them that are so brief

30:21

but we know all the backstory. Like that

30:23

one line when and we know that it's

30:25

Jerome that types it but it's just like,

30:27

see you later, momma's boy and we know

30:29

how that hits because we know what just

30:31

happened with his mom but if we just

30:33

got that from Bill's side, it would not

30:36

hit nearly as hard. True, yeah. I

30:38

kind of think it's like, are you a law

30:40

and order SVU fan or are you a law

30:43

and order criminal intent fan? Both

30:46

are good but I had to pick

30:48

one, me personally, criminal intent. So

30:51

I know that's a bit of a... Now why?

30:53

Because I haven't watched criminal intent. Do you get more

30:56

of the villain? Oh, yeah, that's the

30:58

whole thing. You're seeing like,

31:00

yes, you get like Vincent D'Onofrio doing

31:02

his like torture detective thing but you

31:04

also, it's exactly like this. Like you

31:06

get to see, you know who's doing

31:08

it and it's them finding him.

31:12

So you get to see it just like

31:14

this and I think that also there's admittedly,

31:16

you know, something a little sick about knowing

31:18

who the villain is and wanting to know

31:20

what they're up to, what they're thinking, how

31:22

their mind works. What attracts a lot

31:24

of us to true crime a little bit, you know,

31:26

just like why, how, how does that, what's

31:29

going on in your mind? And so, you

31:32

know, yeah, it pulls the curtain back on a little bit

31:34

of the mystery but I still

31:37

enjoy the process. It's not, you know,

31:40

April Wolf always said this on her podcast. It's

31:42

not, you know, what happens in a movie that

31:44

makes it worth watching but how it happens. And

31:47

we don't have all the pieces. So it's fun to kind

31:49

of see like, okay, how is this all going to come

31:51

together? You know it's going to come to a head somehow

31:53

but how and where.

31:56

And also like how's he going to wiggle himself out

31:58

of this one? When Hodges

32:01

does get close and

32:03

you're wondering how close is he gonna get

32:05

although it does end up being frustrating then

32:07

in other moments when my fuck

32:10

when They found the

32:13

email and they were like, oh no, duh.

32:15

We should have checked the email I was like, you know,

32:17

what am I doing here? Yeah

32:22

I wonder like and there

32:24

are moments where you feel like he is

32:27

kind of intentionally holding some things back Remain

32:29

balance there are moments like that in Holly

32:31

and like actually throughout the series But

32:34

like I'm thinking back to Gerald's game to

32:37

where it's been mr Moonlight this whole time

32:39

and we have no idea who this person

32:41

is and then at the very end We

32:44

have like 10 pages of hey,

32:46

this guy is really fucked up He did all

32:48

this crazy shit, which I really enjoy because I

32:50

feel like that is one of my favorite King novels But

32:52

I feel like here it would have been way too much

32:54

for us to catch up with too much Too

32:57

much it's like disturbing shit all at once. So

32:59

I like the way it's spaced out Well, that's

33:02

the thing is King clearly really wanted to

33:04

write Brady, right? Yeah He didn't want to

33:06

withhold Brady from us because I think that's

33:08

the character he's having the most fun with

33:11

in the hook and

33:14

And I think fun is the key aspect which we'll talk

33:16

about I

33:19

think Brady's so interesting but also like

33:21

a mess in a lot of

33:23

ways But like a

33:25

fun mess. So yeah, I think that King

33:29

Really enjoyed writing him and so because

33:31

you know, he loves to write his bad his bad boys

33:33

and I think If

33:35

he did like the whodunit he doesn't have that opportunity

33:37

as much. I will say personally I think

33:39

I prefer whodunit overall. I That's

33:43

usually what that makes when

33:45

I do read crime fiction and detective

33:47

fiction Which is not in the

33:49

massive rotation for me, but I do read it

33:52

You know relatively often I like

33:54

the page turning aspect of like getting closer and

33:56

closer to whoever it is And you know, I

33:58

think about the outsider which I won't say

34:00

much about because we

34:03

haven't discussed it yet on the podcast and we will soon.

34:06

It's that's like a whodunit, right?

34:08

But then it kind of becomes

34:10

complicated because you know, and but

34:12

that was to me a much

34:14

more propulsive read than these because

34:16

I was so invested in like

34:18

who did this and I and

34:21

I think that that structure

34:23

works for me. But I will say

34:25

in that case, you have to really

34:27

like your protagonist and you need to

34:29

be sticking with them. And I will

34:31

say if Mr. Mercedes did not

34:33

have these periodic break ins from Brady, I

34:35

struggle with a lot more because I am

34:37

also not a big Hodges guy. So

34:40

whereas I'm a big Brady boy. Hashtag.

34:43

Hashtag Brady boy. That's the thing.

34:45

I think King is just too good at

34:47

writing villains. Yeah. If you ever

34:49

really effectively do a whodunit that we want to

34:51

stay with, you know, and I mean, I love

34:53

his protagonist, but like his villains are what we

34:56

know him for, you know, and that to me

34:58

is perhaps like one of the reasons that I

35:00

struggle with the latter part of the outsider is

35:02

because yeah, comes a different sort of book. I don't

35:04

want to say too much, but it's like he

35:07

doesn't have that chance to flex as much. Yeah.

35:10

Okay, cool. Let's pop over and read

35:12

some reviews of this book from when it came

35:14

out. Jen, you put some of these together. So

35:16

why don't you walk us through some

35:19

of the key reviews? So

35:21

I feel like most of the reviews

35:23

that I found were pretty good and

35:25

it kind of mirrors the experience that

35:27

I had reading. I feel like for

35:30

me, once you hit that halfway

35:33

point, it really does kind of

35:35

propel itself forward and

35:37

there's not a whodunit feel, but there's

35:39

almost the like, well, we will they

35:42

won't they save everybody kind of feel.

35:44

So from the Guardian, Stephanie Merritt, the

35:47

economic decline of America's industrial cities infects

35:49

the atmosphere of the novel, but has

35:51

never really brought to the fore in

35:53

the way the initial symbolism implied. He

35:56

is moved by nothing so significant as a

35:58

cause. He is merely an unremindled. I'm

36:00

remarkable man with a fragile balance of

36:02

mind, driven by a series of mundane

36:04

accidents and bleak circumstances to hate the

36:07

world and force it to take notice

36:09

of them who represents a plausible evil.

36:11

It's impossible not to hear echoes of

36:13

A Story and other troubled young American

36:15

men who have opened fire and crowded

36:17

schools are cinemas as Kitten peel back

36:20

the layers, understand how a killer like

36:22

Brady is formed, Mister

36:24

Mercedes is rooted firmly in the small

36:26

town realism for which Kings frequently celebrated

36:28

and which is often overlooked in the

36:31

thriller genre. The stakes are fairly low

36:33

here, and Hodges is an urn repossessing

36:35

hero, just as Brady is a banal

36:37

kind of monster. Perhaps the most chilling

36:39

aspect is how many potential Brady Hartfield

36:41

there might be lurking across Recession, Blythe,

36:44

and America blaming society for what they

36:46

become. This is the real fear that

36:48

King says in his reader's mind: she'll

36:50

never feel quite at ease in a

36:52

public gathering again. Yeah. I really

36:54

like that way around Iowa. I. Hum

36:57

yea I have a lot of. I. Want

36:59

to revisit a lot of those ideas a

37:01

little bit later? I'm a young once

37:03

you read the next one. John. Okay, and

37:05

then Kirkus had the scariest thing of

37:07

all. As you imagine King writing a

37:09

happy Chilterns plug. This isn't it. And

37:11

with a cadre of investigators entail, Hodges

37:13

sets out to avert what is certain

37:15

to be an even greater trauma for

37:17

the object of his cat and mouse

37:19

class have much larger ambitions this time

37:21

involving a firework show where the a

37:23

fight club and that's not as only

37:25

crime he's illegally downloaded the whole and

37:27

excise. Anarchists cookbook for

37:29

a bit too are sentence and copyright

37:31

theft Just maybe the ultimate evil in

37:34

the King. Moral universe. Kings familiar themes

37:36

are all here. There's craziness in spades

37:38

and plenty of alcohol. and even a

37:40

Carnival King being perhaps the most accomplished

37:42

Culver foam at work today. The story

37:44

line of Vintage keen to and the

37:46

battle of good and evil. Good may

37:48

prevail, but never before. Evil as caused

37:50

a whole lot of mayhem. The scariest

37:53

thing of all? it's your match and

37:55

King writing a happy children's book? This

37:57

isn't it. It's a nicely. Dark. Never

37:59

predictable. Altogether entertaining. Still, kinda like

38:01

Ashleigh what you were talking about. Yeah,

38:03

and yeah, That's really what it felt

38:06

like to me, Especially. You

38:09

know, I. I

38:11

don't believe I got that feeling

38:13

when I watched the series as

38:15

Monday. But. For some reason

38:18

I think maybe just the way that

38:20

this book was broken up, It really

38:22

did feel like we were travelling with

38:24

those two groups in the sand. and

38:26

just like a when are they going

38:28

to come together? Man know you have

38:30

a good versus evil Was really strong

38:32

this time. Round. And.

38:35

Then in the L A times,

38:37

Paul Elle Woods rates yet beneath

38:39

that ordinary veneer as an angry,

38:41

hate filled man inundated by a

38:43

violent saturated culture replete with serial

38:45

killer stories, violent video games, lead

38:47

child's novels, and Wild Bunch screensavers

38:49

which doesn't exactly like Brady's murderous

38:51

fire, but certainly fans the flames

38:53

burning inside him. Given that there

38:55

are more than a few references

38:58

and allusions to Kings own section

39:00

and screen adaptation sprinkled throughout the

39:02

novel, it's hard to ignore the

39:04

authors role in shaping. The tropes

39:06

of that universe. That said, kings

39:08

ritual layered technologically savvy story that

39:10

illuminates Mister Mercedes is evil deeds

39:12

and even more monstrous plan is

39:14

uncomfortable yet riveting to read. Alternating

39:16

between Hodges and Brady's points of

39:18

view sets the stage for a

39:20

creepy script from the headlines climax,

39:22

a showdown between good and evil

39:24

that characterizes the best of Kings

39:26

work regardless of genre and without

39:28

spoiling the fun of reading this

39:30

excellent addition to Kings growing list

39:32

of mystery thriller titles. There's even

39:34

a small hands. That the Mister

39:36

Mercedes show make Allied Air he

39:38

thought and deed the. Number. Of

39:41

rates. And We know it. live. end

39:44

in one last when i found of

39:46

us usa today brian true at rights

39:48

with an accidental gumshoe and a freaky

39:51

serial killer stephen king's new novel mr

39:53

mercedes takes the old detective genre in

39:55

an excellent modern direction pretty hard field

39:57

as a weird dude with mommy issues

40:00

in plain sight is both an IT

40:02

specialist and the ice cream man watching

40:04

Hodges from afar but also working on

40:06

a new plan to maim and kill

40:08

thousands. He offers a fascinating look at

40:10

what makes a serial killer in a

40:12

post 9-11 context and is

40:14

exceedingly worthy to be in King's vast

40:17

menagerie of malevolence. This

40:19

could be a twisted metal prequel. Have

40:22

we thought of that? He's the clown. Is it

40:24

the clown that drives the ice cream? Uh-huh. Yeah.

40:28

Where's the clown at? Twisty? No,

40:31

not Twisty. What's the Twisty's

40:33

American Horror Story? That's

40:35

right. One of the clowns' name and... That's right.

40:37

That's not the twisted metal that I'm gonna watch

40:39

it now. Well, I

40:41

never watch the show. You gotta play

40:43

the game. It's classic. Twisty Metal 2

40:45

rules. I always played as the

40:47

monster truck. The guy who's like a monster truck. You

40:50

know what? Here's the thing. I always played as the

40:52

cop and I'm really disappointed in myself. You

40:57

buzzkill. So,

40:59

I wanna... There was one other review

41:01

I found that I feel like

41:04

all those are pretty positive and I

41:06

certainly don't hate this book, but I

41:08

think I'm a little bit more... When

41:11

I read this review, it's actually from my alma mater,

41:14

the AV Club, back in 2014 they

41:16

published this. And this one,

41:18

I think, speaks more to my experience with

41:20

it. Tasha Robinson

41:22

writes, At

41:53

this point, his writing style feels as specific,

41:55

idiosyncratic, familiar, and comfortable as a Woody Allen

41:57

credit sequence or a Star Wars OST. opening

42:00

crawl and it prompts the same kind

42:02

of divided reactions providing a tidy line

42:04

of demarcation between king fans and non

42:06

fans and then it goes

42:08

on to say that it opens with its best sequence

42:10

which I also agree with and

42:12

and they yeah so

42:17

they go to say but

42:19

even when he's being surprising he's also

42:22

bringing in predictable Kingisms including an internet

42:24

savvy black teenager who for some reason

42:26

loves to speak in a yes-massa southern

42:29

slave a classic woman

42:31

in refrigerators set up and that aforementioned divorcee

42:33

who's all too eager to hop in bed

42:35

with Hodges she at least makes herself plausible

42:37

by coherently explaining her reasoning in the process

42:40

taking some steps toward becoming a person who

42:42

makes actual choices for herself not just a

42:44

cutout character following a well-worn path but she

42:46

never entirely shakes the impression that her character's

42:49

name in the first draft was standard

42:51

revitalizing and

42:54

I think those yeah I think

42:56

that review to me it

42:58

just speaks a little bit more I think to my

43:00

frustrations with the book but

43:03

but yeah but I do think these

43:05

reviews are pretty spot-on because there's so

43:08

much really interesting cultural context and

43:10

historical context that I think goes into

43:12

the creation of this one

43:14

yeah so on that note let's

43:17

head into the hook yes

43:22

don't you see don't you

43:24

see how clear it all is not

43:27

only can you see the future you

43:30

can I can change you

43:32

can change it exactly here in the hook we

43:34

talk about the themes the ideas the the

43:37

big picture and what this book is

43:39

really about and you know sometimes for

43:41

this section I've got like 15 different

43:43

ideas or themes that King is clearly

43:45

playing around with and he's definitely playing

43:47

around with some stuff here but I

43:49

think this is a an example where

43:51

he's really letting the story drive this

43:54

book which is kind of a nice relief because

43:58

it's easy to get sometimes And

44:00

I think some of the various ideas that King's

44:02

playing with especially like the latter Dark Tower books

44:05

But in this one there were a

44:07

few things that really stood out to me

44:09

But before we dive into the ideas that

44:11

that I had sort of like poked at

44:15

What what kind of like permeated for

44:17

you like what what resonated what ideas

44:19

did you come out of this? Sort

44:22

of turning around in your head Jen. How about you? Um,

44:26

well as I was thinking about like whenever I

44:28

think about King describing evil I always think of

44:30

father Callahan and Salem's law talking

44:33

about capital evil capital E

44:35

and little lowercase evil like the big and

44:37

the the small the minute and I feel

44:39

like the this

44:41

novel is very much like small

44:43

e evil like meaningless and when

44:45

I think about the three words

44:47

that Brady uses for his Computers

44:49

its control its chaos and its

44:51

darkness and it's like that's what

44:53

the little evil is and it's

44:55

it's not about anything Bigger than

44:57

that. It's just some frustrated guy

45:00

who doesn't get what he wants

45:02

or has like a myriad of problems and

45:04

he just wants control and he just wants

45:06

to cause chaos and We

45:08

are all caught up in it. And

45:11

as the novel begins, I think Bill is feeling

45:13

really overwhelmed By that

45:15

and he's like I couldn't get them all so

45:17

what's the point? I'm just gonna die, you know

45:19

And what he finds throughout

45:21

the story is that it

45:23

is still worth Continuing

45:25

and that there are other people

45:28

that can try to fight evil

45:31

Through other ways, you know not being by

45:33

being on the cops That's not the only

45:35

way to contribute to society that there are

45:37

other people and other skills and that is

45:40

what actually combats Literally

45:42

evil and then we also have

45:44

a cotet. So there's the community

45:46

element too. So yeah. Yeah, that's

45:49

smart Rachel how about

45:51

you? Yeah going off that

45:53

I mean something that I've liked

45:55

rereading it is just kind of It's

45:58

interesting everybody talked about like the good versus evil because I

46:00

also think the more I read it, the more murky

46:02

it gets. And that's what I kind of like. Also,

46:05

I mean, anytime I can relate something to Charles

46:07

Bronson I'm going to.

46:10

But the happy slapper is like that

46:13

scene in Death Wish with him wheeling

46:15

around the quarters in the

46:17

sock and going out and just hitting somebody,

46:19

a burglar going down the

46:21

street. But the fact is he's carrying it.

46:23

He's kind of waiting for that opportunity. And

46:26

so it's just kind of that, I

46:28

don't know, like Hodges is a little delusional, I think,

46:31

when he first is like leaving

46:33

the forest thinking like, okay, I'm a

46:35

good guy. But also he's attacking teenagers

46:37

with, you know, something that he

46:39

even admits like just a little off and I could kill

46:42

him, you know, but I'm just going to hit him on

46:44

the side of the head instead. And it's like, dude, that's

46:46

fucked up. You're still attacking a child,

46:48

you know, a teenager not saying what

46:50

they're doing is right, but just kind

46:53

of that murky morality, kind of

46:56

that reckless in the whole book.

46:58

Yeah, his entire he's he's dangerous

47:00

and reckless the whole

47:04

time. Like he's not doing good

47:06

things. But do we think that

47:08

do we think that King is writing

47:11

that intentionally? Or

47:13

are we supposed to read that scene where

47:16

he where he knocks around the teenager like,

47:18

Oh, that's a badass move on Hodges part

47:20

like, I think he's doing it intentionally, because

47:22

there's like, like very direct lines

47:25

where you know, the ball bearings,

47:27

like at the end, he's talking about like, Oh, these

47:29

are very similar to the ball bearings that I have

47:31

in my happy slapper. Like there's multiple

47:33

little nuggets in there where he's

47:36

making connections between Brady and Hodges.

47:38

And you think about, you

47:41

know, how he's treating Olivia and just

47:43

kind of the self entitlement for certain

47:45

things. And I do think that also

47:47

highlights how Hodges changes over the course

47:49

of the book, but also just

47:51

kind of how they are actually

47:54

a little bit more similar than maybe they

47:56

want to admit in certain things. And

47:59

so I think I think he's doing it intentionally,

48:01

but that's what I get on the

48:03

third read. I love that. Well,

48:06

and I think, I'm on my fourth

48:08

read too, so I definitely am starting to pick

48:10

that stuff up. And I think

48:12

that that might have been a second edit change

48:14

too, because I feel like,

48:17

you know, we talked earlier about Hodges kind of

48:19

feeling like a proxy for keying in a lot

48:21

of ways. And I feel like

48:23

the first round, it might have been kind of

48:25

a badass move. Yeah, these teens are near me.

48:27

They're going to step on my lawn. And

48:30

then as he got to the end and he realized, oh,

48:32

the ball bearings, you know, he got to that scene. Then

48:36

on the second rewrite or the second

48:38

draft through, he kind of started to

48:40

weave those parallels in. There's also a

48:43

moment where I think he realizes Holly

48:45

is more than he thought, you

48:47

know, which I want to talk

48:49

about later, but I think you

48:51

can kind of see King evaluating

48:53

himself and evaluating the attitudes of

48:55

his generation kind of as he's

48:57

writing this, you know. Yeah, I

48:59

definitely got like seven vibes at

49:01

the end. Like he

49:04

still sees the world

49:06

as a vile cesspool

49:08

of meaningless violence, but

49:10

one worth saving. Like

49:12

he has found meaning again and

49:15

community in his own world, which

49:17

shines a brighter light on his

49:19

own circumstances, which makes him more optimistic.

49:22

But he knows what kind of evil is out there.

49:25

And he feels, I think in the end,

49:27

feels more ready to take it on. Yeah,

49:30

I think that's all really

49:32

interesting. And

49:35

I want to read this quote. This is

49:37

from, he wasn't talking about Mr. Mercedes specifically

49:40

here, but it really resonated with me because

49:42

I think this is an idea that

49:44

at this point in his career, like I,

49:46

you know, around 2014, I

49:49

really began seeing these ideas expressed

49:51

a lot more. And I'm thinking

49:53

specifically of Holly because

49:55

I just read it, you know, last year. And

49:59

these ideas. ideas are expressly articulated

50:02

in it. So yeah, this was in

50:04

a 2014 interview with Rolling Stone. They

50:08

like the interviewer basically was like, thoughts

50:10

on evil. He's like,

50:13

I believe in evil, but all my life

50:15

I've gone back and forth about whether or

50:17

not there's an outside evil, whether or not

50:20

there's a force in the world that really

50:22

wants to destroy us from the inside out

50:24

individually and collectively, or whether it all comes

50:26

from inside and that it's all part of

50:29

genetics and environment. When you find somebody like

50:31

let's say Ted Bundy who tortured and killed

50:33

all those women and sometimes went back and

50:35

had sex with the dead bodies. I

50:38

don't think when you look at his upbringing,

50:40

you can say, Oh, that's because mommy put

50:42

a clothes pin on his dick when he

50:44

was four. That behavior was hardwired. Evil

50:47

is inside us. The older I get,

50:49

the less I think there's some sort

50:51

of outside devilish influence. It comes from

50:53

people. And unless we're able to address

50:56

that issue sooner or later, we'll fucking

50:58

kill ourselves. I

51:00

find this interesting, but

51:03

I think he kind of contradicts himself because

51:05

he says whether it

51:07

all comes from the, from inside and

51:09

that it's all part of genetics and

51:11

environment genetics, I get, but

51:14

he dispels his use of environment a

51:17

few sentences later where he says, you

51:20

can't look at his upbringing and say, mommy put

51:22

a clothes pin on his dick when he was

51:24

four. He's saying that what

51:26

his mom did to him doesn't matter. That

51:29

behavior was hardwired. Evil is inside us. And

51:31

so that's like where the genetics aspect comes

51:34

in. And I'm so drawn to this idea

51:36

or these ideas. And I think King has

51:38

explored them in his whole career. You mentioned

51:40

the stand. The stand is one of those

51:42

books that I talked about this extensively in

51:45

our coverage is, you

51:47

know, the question is who has the dreams, right?

51:49

Like who chooses what dream

51:51

you get? Who chooses the dream?

51:53

Like is God choosing that? You know, it's

51:55

like, um, like, why

51:57

do you get to see mother Abigail? And I don't.

52:00

And I think that that is a question that he

52:02

wasn't quite prepared to explore when he wrote the stamp,

52:04

because he was still pretty young. Although

52:07

I think it's wonderful what he does

52:09

in it. But I think that that

52:11

is this is like a lifelong

52:13

thing that he's been struggling with. And so

52:15

I'm drawn to these notions of an outside

52:18

evil, which he doesn't articulate like what that

52:20

is. He says like a devilish outside presence,

52:22

you know, and then this

52:24

idea that certain people are just born

52:26

bad. And there are several quotes in

52:29

the book that sort of support that. I

52:31

had one too from the book. Yeah, yeah. Do

52:33

you have it handy? Yeah. Page 43

52:36

is when Hodges first reads the

52:38

letter from Mr. Mercedes and

52:40

it says Hodges has read there are wells

52:42

in Iceland so deep you can drop

52:44

a stone down them and never hear the

52:47

splash. He thinks some human souls

52:49

are like that. Yeah,

52:51

it's almost as if like, and

52:54

I always think this

52:56

is well, not

52:58

necessarily sociopath, maybe Ted Bundy,

53:01

but it's almost as if some people were

53:03

born without a soul. Like

53:06

they're just animal. You

53:08

know what I mean? Yeah. And I the

53:10

thing is, this is these

53:12

ideas are explicitly discussed. Have

53:15

you guys all read Holly or just not

53:17

yet? Okay. Yeah, these

53:19

ideas are like are things that Holly very

53:22

explicitly says that some people are kind of

53:24

just evil. And I really

53:27

struggle with that personally, like

53:29

I that has no bearing on my enjoyment of

53:31

the book, but it's like, I, I think

53:34

that these are things that King is struggling

53:36

with is where there

53:39

and I think it's a very normal reaction

53:41

for people to have. And Lord knows it's

53:43

one I've had where you see such horrible,

53:45

like, like such cruelty, you

53:47

know, the longer

53:50

you live, you see more and more instances of

53:52

stuff like this. And you start to lose faith

53:54

in humanity as a whole. And I think one

53:56

of the big struggles of life is not losing

53:58

that faith, but I think. I think

54:01

everything in me, every moral

54:03

fiber of my body, tells me not

54:06

to just assume that certain people are

54:08

beyond saving, or that people were

54:10

just born bad. But I'm always reckoning

54:13

with that personally, and I like the way that

54:15

this book caused me to sort of bristle

54:18

at that characterization. I don't like

54:20

that idea that some people are

54:22

just empty inside. I

54:24

think I want to give humanity more

54:26

credit than that, because I think that

54:28

as a country, especially these days, we're

54:30

so divided that we can become so

54:35

like we

54:38

reduce the people that

54:40

we find repulsive to one-dimensional beings.

54:43

I think that that's a very common thing these days.

54:46

If I had a big struggle with Holly, and Jen,

54:48

you know this because you're on the episode with me,

54:51

I felt like that book was leaning

54:53

too far into that binary. Whereas

54:55

I've always felt like there's shades

54:57

with King's characters. And the

55:00

thing is, I see the steps that

55:02

he's taking towards that, but I actually

55:04

really like the way that he explores it here. Because

55:07

like you said earlier, Rachel, I do think

55:09

that there is this intertwining

55:12

of Hodges and Brady that is really

55:14

compelling. And Brady also is like not

55:16

a one-dimensional character. Although

55:19

he's almost like a two-dimensional character,

55:21

because there's too much going on.

55:24

But I don't know. I think these are just

55:26

the things that really resonated with me. Jen, what

55:28

were you going to say? Well,

55:31

I was just thinking like King

55:33

has always written about outside evil,

55:35

like coming in

55:37

on us if I think about The Shining, you

55:39

know, that is a book. Yeah,

55:42

about a flawed character who really wants

55:44

to be good, but

55:46

has been born with the capacity for bad. And a lot

55:48

of that has to do with addiction too. And

55:51

it's because of this outside influence. And I think,

55:53

you know, we also see that with Harold Lauder,

55:56

who feels like Brady in so many ways, even

55:59

down to the fact that they... They both have

56:01

shoeboxes full of explosives and they're like sitting at

56:03

desks at certain points and... But

56:06

they needed that catalyzing sort of

56:08

like outside presence to ignite the

56:10

darkness. Right. And so

56:12

here it's like what if there is

56:15

no outside catalyst? What if just opportunity

56:17

is the catalyst? Or what if tragedy?

56:20

Or what if like circumstances the catalyst

56:22

what then? And that's where I think

56:24

the word chaos comes in, you know?

56:26

Here's where it gets confused in my opinion

56:28

because I agree with you. There is this...

56:30

Okay, because I kept joking. I was like

56:32

Brady is the Joker. He's Jocker. Yeah,

56:35

he's Jocker. He's absolutely Jocker. He's

56:37

Jocker. He jocks. He

56:40

just wants like... Yeah, he jocks. He just

56:42

wants chaos, right? Like it's... And

56:44

this came out what? Like, or, you know, a

56:47

couple years after, not too long after Dark Knight,

56:49

right? And so I think some of these ideas

56:51

were being memed and were kind of in the

56:53

cultural conversation. And

56:56

I think like Brady is King's little jocker.

57:00

Little Jocker with an L. Little Jocker. I

57:03

am. But,

57:05

you know, that was the whole... The thing about the Jocker

57:07

is that he... The

57:10

movie is so resistant. The

57:12

Dark Knight, I'm speaking of. It's so resistant

57:15

and laughs at you like for wanting an

57:17

answer for why he's the way he is,

57:19

right? Like he tells these stories,

57:21

these traumatic stories from his background, but they're

57:23

just jokes, right? He's just fucking around. Which

57:25

is why the character is so fun and

57:27

well acted and well done because like they

57:30

have no desire to explain why he is the

57:32

way he is. He just loves chaos. And so

57:35

there is an element of that to Brady, but

57:37

King can't write a character like that really. He's

57:40

too interested in humanity and messy

57:42

humanity. So this character suddenly gets

57:44

like 10 different reasons for why

57:46

he's so fucked up. And

57:49

but it's not just the fact that

57:52

his mother molests him and has

57:54

for many, many years, or that

57:56

his brother died under horrific traumatic

57:58

circumstances, or that... You know his father

58:01

abandoned their family or I can't remember actually what

58:03

happened. It was not a right. Yeah, like tragedy

58:05

porn at a certain point Right. There's so much

58:07

tragedy in his life and I want to talk

58:10

more about that when we talk about

58:12

him, but it's like and

58:14

then King spent and this that

58:16

Guardian review mentioned this because this is so

58:18

interesting to me was there are

58:21

so many Early

58:24

indicators of the

58:26

Struggles that people are facing in and in like

58:29

society at this time. So this is set in

58:31

2009 It opened or at

58:33

least like the accident was in 2009 That

58:36

opens the book and it opens on a

58:39

job fair Literally like poor people being run

58:41

over by a rich person's car outside of

58:43

job fair like it's a very apt and

58:45

like blunt force metaphor and I love it

58:49

Subtlety is for cowards, but like so Janice

58:53

and then there's this woman Jenna. She says her

58:55

parents are underwater with their house in Vermont. They

58:57

can't afford the payments like They

58:59

talk about the local papers two of them are

59:01

gone. The third is on life support They

59:04

talk about like various forms of media like this

59:06

is little but it's like DVDs all being 50%

59:08

off It's like just

59:10

everything is changing right like There's

59:13

a remark. I believe in the letter about

59:15

how kids like these days like torture and

59:17

dismemberment There's all these complaints about

59:20

the housing market. He criticizes

59:22

Brian Williams Man

59:24

you cannot get you cannot get like a post 2008 King

59:28

book without at least one mention of

59:30

a cable news guy so

59:34

But they talk about the whole world is

59:36

falling apart. Like that's the language that's being

59:38

used and I was

59:41

like, okay so is Brady a result

59:43

of that and But then

59:45

he has also this other tragedy in his

59:47

life and then There's all

59:49

this like and this is I think where there's so

59:51

much going on with him. He also

59:53

just seems like a cuckoo bird I was gonna say

59:56

he would have killed he would

59:58

have found a reason to kill Yeah,

1:00:00

so I feel like Brady is

1:00:02

kind of a confused character. And I don't,

1:00:04

I want to, maybe we can elaborate that

1:00:06

on more heroes and villains, but because I

1:00:09

feel like King wanted to say so many

1:00:11

different things. And I don't think that makes

1:00:13

him not a good character. Like I don't

1:00:15

think that all of these competing ideas are

1:00:17

necessarily at each other's throats. It's just that

1:00:20

I found myself being yanked in different

1:00:22

directions as I was reading this, you

1:00:24

know? And then that Guardian review also

1:00:27

says like that early symbolism of the

1:00:29

job fair and the Mercedes and all these things,

1:00:31

it kind of goes by the wayside. And

1:00:33

that bums me out because I was really

1:00:35

interested in that approach to it. Same, but

1:00:38

this was a novel that definitely feels

1:00:40

like he

1:00:43

let it take him wherever

1:00:45

it was gonna go. Like

1:00:48

he had no plan, it almost seemed like. And

1:00:50

I don't mean that in a bad way, but

1:00:52

I just mean, Holly,

1:00:55

this huge character in this book,

1:00:57

I can't think of another book

1:01:00

where a character like that was

1:01:03

introduced so far into close to

1:01:05

the, it felt like close

1:01:07

to the end, close to the climax of the

1:01:10

book that this character- She really takes it over

1:01:12

in the latter half down. It takes it

1:01:14

over and it really felt like King wrote

1:01:16

her in and then she was just like, come on, like

1:01:20

year long for the ride. Yeah, from the

1:01:22

get go, it almost feels like he didn't

1:01:24

know where this was going, but that makes

1:01:26

it kind of exciting to read because how

1:01:28

could we possibly know where it was going?

1:01:30

Yeah. Yeah, and if I compare this

1:01:32

to End of Watch, which

1:01:34

does not feel that way, it feels like it

1:01:36

is going towards a specific conclusion, which I won't

1:01:39

say anything about because we're not there yet. I

1:01:41

enjoyed Mr. Mercedes way more than I

1:01:44

enjoy End of Watch because it does

1:01:46

feel like, yeah, we're finding the story

1:01:48

out as King is. Also,

1:01:50

Sadie is the only other character I think I can

1:01:52

think of who comes in so late and then just

1:01:54

like explodes and takes over, but we

1:01:56

talked about that. We were like, who

1:01:59

else has he really done that? with. It feels like King

1:02:01

really kind of falls in love with her. I

1:02:03

do think what I like about kind of that kind

1:02:06

of, I don't know, steering

1:02:08

off that path of like all

1:02:10

of these outside economic and cultural

1:02:12

societal issues maybe affecting something is

1:02:14

the fact that it's almost scarier

1:02:17

just to think that like, yeah, all this shit's going on

1:02:19

in the world. But honestly, this

1:02:21

was just going to happen anyways.

1:02:25

And just kind of like, you

1:02:27

just need that spark and that spark could

1:02:29

have come from anywhere. And it

1:02:32

can happen anywhere. It can happen at any

1:02:34

time. It's just like the right circumstance. And

1:02:36

it could be anything could be any of

1:02:39

those circumstances. It doesn't necessarily like, Oh,

1:02:41

the world made him yet maybe but

1:02:43

also it's just like

1:02:45

that could have just happened. And yeah, and also

1:02:47

like a perfect storm, you know, it's like, absolutely,

1:02:50

I think about Richard Ramirez, who

1:02:52

did not stand a fucking chance,

1:02:54

like when his mother was pregnant

1:02:56

with him, she was working in

1:02:58

a factory that was pumping poison.

1:03:00

It was like a shoe factory

1:03:02

that was pumping poison into her

1:03:04

before he's even born. And

1:03:06

then before he's three, he has a traumatic

1:03:09

brain injury. And then he sees

1:03:11

people die in front of him before he's

1:03:13

even 15 years old. He's

1:03:16

sexually abused. He did not stand

1:03:19

a chance. Does that mean he

1:03:21

shouldn't be punished for his crimes now? But

1:03:25

this is the life that some

1:03:27

people lead. Like some people's dads are

1:03:29

electrocuted, and their moms

1:03:31

do sexually abuse them. And it

1:03:34

is like their life is just tragedy

1:03:36

after tragedy. And some people snap.

1:03:39

Yeah. When he also mentioned

1:03:41

Son of Sam multiple times, it's just kind

1:03:43

of like, you're a victim of convenience.

1:03:47

Like, yeah, many, you know, totally, it was like,

1:03:49

Oh, they were just there. They were there. And that's kind

1:03:51

of the same thing with how,

1:03:53

you know, Brady and Hodges past just

1:03:55

happened across because, you

1:03:58

know, he just happened to be the detective working that. For

1:04:00

that kind of thing, Does. Random Chance yeah,

1:04:02

which I agree, I think is almost

1:04:04

scarier and a lot of ways. And

1:04:06

I think in two thousand and eight.

1:04:09

Or right after two thousand and eight.

1:04:11

Even though you know losing a job

1:04:13

is not the same thing as being

1:04:15

the victim of sexual abuse or like

1:04:17

having losing your father but like I

1:04:19

remember like my dad lost his job

1:04:21

then and it was a job he

1:04:23

had since I was in like elementary

1:04:25

school and it feels like the end

1:04:27

of the world. It feels like everything

1:04:29

is falling apart and it feels really

1:04:31

scary and I feel like we got

1:04:33

so many like young men coming out

1:04:35

of this time periods not just because

1:04:37

of the do the of night recession.

1:04:39

But like Brady feels really familiar right

1:04:41

now and almost makes it scarier to

1:04:43

read him now for some then it

1:04:45

did then like I don't know if

1:04:47

he doesn't quite feel like an insult

1:04:49

as have to hasn't seen as gonna

1:04:51

ask i want to good in bed

1:04:53

like and so on. And cell

1:04:56

number that intellectual on at that. I

1:04:58

think it, I think maybe it was but

1:05:00

it wasn't popular yeah and wasn't the asked

1:05:02

in common parlance. but I will say like.

1:05:05

I I think all of this.

1:05:07

Matters. Like I think. and I'm not.

1:05:10

Like when I say that I think this

1:05:12

is the symbolic nature of it fades away.

1:05:14

It does. But that doesn't mean it's presence

1:05:16

in the story doesn't matter. And like I

1:05:18

wanna talk about that when we get to.

1:05:20

when we talk about pretty cynical, it's just

1:05:22

because I think I'm. Like

1:05:24

you use the word apocalypse or era

1:05:26

like end of the World jam and

1:05:28

isn't breeze one of his words like

1:05:30

apocalypse like that he is like a

1:05:32

says apocalypse is like one of his

1:05:35

his trigger words trigger words or something.

1:05:37

I remember him talking about it amusing

1:05:39

on outward a one point and so

1:05:41

and like So when you say it

1:05:43

feels like the end of the world

1:05:45

I mean obviously Nine Eleven Shadow is

1:05:47

still casting over to yeah and that

1:05:49

all apocalyptic for a lot of people

1:05:51

and so it's I think all that

1:05:53

stuff. Really matters I'm

1:05:55

when discussing. I'm.

1:05:58

Brady this book and. The

1:06:00

at the nature of why

1:06:02

these young men or whoever

1:06:05

are so lane. Great. Yeah.

1:06:08

Angry and what's the word I'm

1:06:11

looking for? Like now I'm. Against.

1:06:14

Like you know and just want chaos

1:06:16

to some yeah yeah no sale, some

1:06:18

internal yeah of yacht an. Accident he

1:06:20

has the wild bunch and stuff on

1:06:22

his as a screensaver would save that

1:06:25

for we talk about really were just

1:06:27

the idea of like masculinity and. Yes,

1:06:29

this I also wanted you guys

1:06:32

to consider as we go on

1:06:34

with this series. And

1:06:36

Rachel you might have particular insight

1:06:38

into. This is King becoming a

1:06:41

little is he fighting against Charles

1:06:43

Bronson as. Like.

1:06:45

Views of the world and of youth like

1:06:47

he had this times which I think it's

1:06:50

normal at his age especially but there is

1:06:52

like I do feel like he is challenging

1:06:54

themselves. Some why. Because. I think

1:06:56

he does feel like I said he's

1:06:58

thinking about like these people that are

1:07:01

just born, evolves and there is a

1:07:03

lot of like handwringing about use you

1:07:05

know and I and like why it.

1:07:07

is being said into kids' brains, which

1:07:09

I think every generation has to some

1:07:11

degree. Some,

1:07:13

but that was that's less mean to keep in

1:07:16

mind as we go through the whole series. And

1:07:18

on that note, I know we're we're about

1:07:20

to move on. But I just want to

1:07:22

mention like the review pointed out to, this

1:07:24

is a World the Hardest Trilogy exists in

1:07:26

a world Works Stephen King is a saying

1:07:28

like three hundred later bucks that talk about

1:07:31

carry And so I think he is thinking,

1:07:33

have I contributed to this like have I

1:07:35

created the kind of violence The Cat? Like

1:07:37

how many books as a written about a

1:07:39

killer car you know. So I do think

1:07:41

he's caught it early and says cells. You

1:07:43

know I. Hadn't even thought about it that way. I'm. Ah,

1:07:46

But yeah, there are some interesting. Things.

1:07:49

You know, the last thing I'll say about this

1:07:52

is I've. He. talks about

1:07:54

bumfights yeah well as is on bum

1:07:56

fights for a while and that's where

1:07:58

i'm like i really get the Bronson-ish

1:08:01

aspect because I will say though there

1:08:03

is nothing more dispiriting in the world

1:08:06

because like I had this when I learned what bum fights

1:08:08

were like back in it was probably around the time this

1:08:10

came out if not a couple years

1:08:12

before that was one of the

1:08:15

most like that is

1:08:17

so deeply violently cruel you know what I

1:08:19

mean like that is the worst of humanity

1:08:21

in so many ways and so it makes

1:08:23

sense to me that that would

1:08:25

be like even though it sounds a little

1:08:27

silly on its face the

1:08:30

fact that Hodges talks about it

1:08:33

that is something that I crank about too you know what

1:08:35

I mean like it makes me into a crank is when

1:08:37

I think about that kind of thing so

1:08:40

I just want to point that out because I

1:08:43

think because he talks about it in the same breath as

1:08:45

like Jerry Springer which to me is kind of like all

1:08:47

right I think we are past that moment but

1:08:49

I think he is taking

1:08:51

a step from Jerry Springer to bum fights

1:08:53

which if you are being honest like it

1:08:56

is not that big of a step and so

1:08:59

because it is exploitation of vulnerable communities. I feel

1:09:01

like he really is just kind of exploring

1:09:03

testing the waters of evil being a spectrum

1:09:06

and you know it does not take much to

1:09:08

shift from you know one little section to another

1:09:10

but then what is to stop you from going to the next to

1:09:12

the next to the next? Well and look at Brady's

1:09:14

arc you know he it was

1:09:17

not enough like that massacre

1:09:19

like he wants to go blow up a

1:09:21

concert which you know it was like what

1:09:23

that Ariana Grande bomb happened like a couple

1:09:25

of years after this book came out so

1:09:27

okay let us talk about a

1:09:30

couple other just themes briefly I talked

1:09:32

about second chances and reinvention I think

1:09:34

like Hodges and Holly are both given

1:09:36

second chances after accepting like the both

1:09:38

of them had kind of accepted what

1:09:40

their future was right like Hodges like I am

1:09:42

just going to watch TV and

1:09:45

I will kind of like fade into nothingness and maybe I

1:09:47

will kill myself and then Holly

1:09:49

was like I will live with my mom for the

1:09:51

rest of my life until she dies and then who knows who

1:09:53

is going to take care of me then and I

1:09:56

think that really dovetails with the

1:09:58

idea of hopelessness like Like if

1:10:00

we live in a culture of hopelessness, like what's

1:10:02

the point of going on or you know, how

1:10:05

can like I make people care or

1:10:07

notice about me anymore? Like my future

1:10:09

is already carved out. And

1:10:12

I think that like you said, Jen, there's

1:10:14

like a catat that's formed because it is

1:10:16

like coming together as

1:10:18

a community to do

1:10:21

something positive is like attainable for

1:10:23

anyone. You know, right? Yeah. Yeah.

1:10:27

And I have really grown to love Holly

1:10:29

over all of the books that we've written.

1:10:31

And Rachel and I did a character corner

1:10:33

last year, I think with Dan. And

1:10:37

I like, I don't know, I feel

1:10:39

like I'm a Holly stand. She's not

1:10:41

my favorite character at all by any

1:10:43

means, but I really love the fact

1:10:45

that she does find a second chance

1:10:47

and that she, you can feel her

1:10:49

growing with King. You can feel King

1:10:52

giving her a second chance. I don't

1:10:54

care so much about Hodges second chance

1:10:56

because of just, I don't

1:10:58

know. We'll talk about it in a minute. But

1:11:00

I really love the aspect of Holly's grows in

1:11:03

this book. Well, I'll say I'm not a huge

1:11:05

Holly fan as anyone who's listened to our Holly

1:11:07

episode knows, but I will say going

1:11:10

back to the origins made me like

1:11:13

her, like, or at least feel a little bit

1:11:15

more like a affection

1:11:17

for her. And because you see sort of the journey,

1:11:19

right? You see how harsh because I've since I've read

1:11:21

Holly, you see how far she's come. You can see

1:11:23

kind of why King likes her so much. And,

1:11:26

and so why I haven't read Holly yet

1:11:28

is because I knew that we were coming

1:11:30

up on Mr Mercedes and I was like,

1:11:32

I want to start from the beginning and

1:11:34

reread all my Holly. I think that's smart.

1:11:37

Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Because

1:11:40

even this time I was like Holly's 45. Uh-huh.

1:11:42

Yeah. Yeah. Well,

1:11:45

yeah. And

1:11:48

all of my, my most

1:11:50

recent Holly visitations

1:11:53

have been on film and no

1:11:55

one casts her as The

1:11:58

castor is much younger. One is

1:12:00

yeah. And so that was

1:12:02

my image of Holly for a long

1:12:04

time because I hadn't you know, didn't

1:12:07

finish as once settling plan. No idea

1:12:09

who the. Forty five year old chanted.

1:12:11

He i got a holy book where

1:12:13

you separating probably not very. Ah,

1:12:16

I mean make I think they mentioned her lake.

1:12:18

Lake She's talked about in the first

1:12:20

half, but she began like a character

1:12:22

in the second. Like. The air which

1:12:25

unlike didn't wrap on her age at all.

1:12:27

like am I crazy? I don't think so.

1:12:29

I guess I remember that was one thing

1:12:31

I was looking for when we read all

1:12:34

of the books. that yeah he pretty, he's

1:12:36

He's around forty five around our I but

1:12:38

he does talk about like her emotional age

1:12:40

and I think not to diagnose a fictional

1:12:43

character but she does have autism. Spectrum Disorder

1:12:45

or nice to see be Hammers that

1:12:47

I'm pretty hot for food. As yeah

1:12:49

an early days. So yeah well they

1:12:51

talked. About what's that phrase

1:12:54

that she uses in this

1:12:56

book? It's like not triggers,

1:12:58

but it's like smiling. Stemming

1:13:01

spamming? Yes, Yes, Yeah. Which

1:13:03

is a saying you know. And I

1:13:05

used to work with autistic or with

1:13:07

kids with autism ends. You know, my

1:13:10

daughter has autism. Now that part of

1:13:12

the reason I love Holly so much

1:13:14

as because humans me, my daughter Langham.

1:13:16

She feels like a really authentic depiction

1:13:18

of somebody with autism. And I feel

1:13:20

like King is kind of like in

1:13:22

the way we see Hodges re evaluate

1:13:24

his treatment of Olivia. You know, I

1:13:26

think Kane kind of does that with

1:13:28

Hawley in this book and I that

1:13:31

feels like a second draft at it

1:13:33

to. Me like how this character is cool

1:13:35

because there's even a part where he says

1:13:37

like citizen have a single and for her

1:13:39

and the world and then the next sentences

1:13:41

like that something he would regret. I feel

1:13:43

like that is King rereading everything knowing how

1:13:45

were Holly goes at the end of the

1:13:47

story. Yeah, that's interesting. I

1:13:50

like how she kind of. And

1:13:52

a know joins up with Hodges to and just

1:13:55

the idea about that. You.

1:13:57

Can see yourself one way, but

1:13:59

sometimes. You know, you can be around

1:14:01

other people who help you see yourself in a different light.

1:14:03

And yeah, that can be a bad thing. You

1:14:06

know, that can not go super great, but

1:14:08

also that can be like a really beautiful

1:14:10

thing sometimes. And just by being around the

1:14:12

right people, you know, Holly learns to kind

1:14:14

of feel more empowered and accept herself a

1:14:16

little bit more and feel more comfortable being

1:14:18

herself because she's just around people who are

1:14:20

a little bit more open and giving her

1:14:22

a chance. And like just seeing her versus

1:14:24

her mom who's seeing her as like, oh

1:14:27

no, there's no possible way she's got all these issues

1:14:29

versus, you know, Jerome and Hodges who are seeing

1:14:31

like, oh wow, you're really great at this. Like,

1:14:33

you're going, sure. Like, yeah, we'll give you 10

1:14:36

more minutes. Like whatever you need, that kind of

1:14:38

thing. Like you have a skill set and she

1:14:40

kind of allows herself to, you

1:14:42

know, be yourself differently in the same way Hodges does

1:14:45

too. You know, he leaves, you know, puts the gun

1:14:47

away and like, okay, I'm done with you for a

1:14:49

while because he just that sense of purpose. And

1:14:52

that, yeah, you can be 65, you can be 45. And

1:14:56

it's just, you know, it's never too late to

1:14:58

kind of rediscover your purpose. And

1:15:01

it's always nice watching people

1:15:04

finding the reason to live,

1:15:06

whether it's live in the sense of

1:15:08

put the gun away. Like I'm deciding

1:15:10

that maybe I will literally

1:15:12

keep living or like Holly

1:15:14

where it's like, hey, maybe I'll leave the house.

1:15:17

Yeah. Well, and okay. So if we're,

1:15:20

if we're thinking about other car novels, like

1:15:22

there's this passage in Christine too, where Dennis

1:15:24

is saying like, Lee, if Lee

1:15:26

had gone to this high school from the beginning,

1:15:28

she never would have dated Arnie because it doesn't

1:15:30

matter what he looks like. It doesn't matter what

1:15:33

he does today. They will always see him in

1:15:35

the shadow of nerd and quotation marks. You

1:15:37

can't break out of that. And it's because she's

1:15:39

an outside force that she's able to see who

1:15:41

he actually is. And I think that's what we

1:15:44

get with all of these characters. You know, Jerome,

1:15:46

I feel like Jerome and Hodges have known each

1:15:48

other for a while, but he's like, he's

1:15:51

becoming a grownup in this story. So

1:15:53

it's really three people from different parts

1:15:56

of the world that are just kind of seeing

1:15:59

each other. and accepting each other in the

1:16:01

way the rest of their worlds don't. Yeah,

1:16:04

and I think about it. Oh, go ahead. He

1:16:06

definitely explores it with Jerome,

1:16:09

but in a much more

1:16:11

clumsy, complicated way, which

1:16:13

I'm sure we'll talk about. I wonder if we

1:16:15

all have the same thing there. Well,

1:16:18

I think like, yeah, the last thing I'll

1:16:21

say about it is like, it makes

1:16:23

me think of Insomnia, though, too, because it's a similar

1:16:25

book about a similar age protagonist, and

1:16:27

it was a similar story in that

1:16:29

this is somebody who feels like they

1:16:31

lost all the things that defined their

1:16:33

lives previously, and it's like, how do

1:16:35

I redefine myself? And that is sort

1:16:38

of the arc of these characters is

1:16:41

finding, you know, whether it's love,

1:16:43

community, friendship, or purpose, you

1:16:45

know, it's like, refining that, and so I think that

1:16:47

that is like a huge fear King probably has, you

1:16:49

know, is like feeling like he's lost purpose as he's

1:16:51

gotten older, and it's probably why he

1:16:53

would never stop writing, right? Because he, it's

1:16:56

like, if he's not doing it, I don't think he's

1:16:58

someone who can just like relax. Yeah,

1:17:00

he's like a shark. Yeah, yeah.

1:17:02

So last theme I just want to

1:17:05

discuss, and it's not really

1:17:07

a theme so much as I think an

1:17:09

observation, which is that this is kind of

1:17:11

set in an Anywhere USA kind of town.

1:17:13

It's like an unnamed city, or at least

1:17:15

from what I can, I don't think it's

1:17:17

named, but it isn't a very King-like sort

1:17:19

of move because he's so good at cultivating

1:17:21

place. And I don't know, like,

1:17:23

why do you think he did that and did

1:17:25

it work for you? Because if I'm being honest,

1:17:28

like, that's something I really miss in,

1:17:30

when I was kind of looking at the broader Hollywood,

1:17:34

one thing that I think makes it

1:17:36

not crystallize as much for me is

1:17:38

that there is to me a lack

1:17:40

of place. Like, I've always found the

1:17:42

town, the city, wherever they are, to

1:17:44

be a little... It's a big character, and it's not.

1:17:46

It's not really a character, like, whereas like, yeah, like

1:17:49

Salem's lot, like, you know, like Castle Rock, all these

1:17:51

places that he's written are... the

1:17:53

place is such a huge part of why I

1:17:55

love the world. I mean, even like something like

1:17:58

The Shining with the Overlook, right? It's like... such

1:18:00

a cool setting and I really don't feel like

1:18:02

I have that here. But do you guys disagree?

1:18:05

No, but it's because it could happen to

1:18:08

you. Yeah,

1:18:11

I mean, seriously, I think he said

1:18:13

it in a very, yeah, a very

1:18:15

non descript locale to just reinforce that

1:18:17

kind of humming undercurrent idea that, you

1:18:19

know, evil, it's more likely to be

1:18:21

someone from your own city, your own

1:18:23

neighborhood, your own family that could cause

1:18:25

you harm than some like evil coming

1:18:27

from the outside, or like he mentions

1:18:29

multiple times, some evil terrorist

1:18:31

organization, you know, putting shifting all the

1:18:34

blame somewhere else. When

1:18:36

it's like, no, it's probably just that dude in the basement.

1:18:38

That's a bigger threat to you, the ice cream man

1:18:40

driving around. But yeah, it's not,

1:18:42

you know, the the elite that

1:18:45

are kidnapping children for

1:18:47

a sex trafficking ring. Well,

1:18:49

they are also doing that.

1:18:52

But it's also Brady's in their

1:18:54

basements. Yeah, but it's

1:18:56

also it's, you know, the family friend,

1:18:58

it's it's, it's always someone that you

1:19:01

know, because you have to

1:19:03

have a level of familiarity

1:19:05

with the person in order to

1:19:08

abuse that person or manipulate

1:19:11

that person. They're not

1:19:13

snatching you from the street. And the

1:19:16

yeah, it's definitely in every city feel

1:19:19

and I think he he hammers that

1:19:21

in with the references to the it

1:19:24

mini series and with the references

1:19:26

to Christine as a novel in

1:19:29

this to really set it like no, no,

1:19:31

no, no, this is not the king verse.

1:19:33

This is your town right now. Yeah,

1:19:35

that's an interesting way to look at it. And

1:19:38

there's a disconnected feel to because like when

1:19:40

I think about the King cities that I

1:19:42

love the most, it's like, Brady

1:19:45

couldn't operate like this in

1:19:48

in like Castle Rock, because everybody knows

1:19:50

him, everybody knows everybody's business. And here,

1:19:52

like Hodges rolls up to Brady's house,

1:19:54

and like it's a neighbor he's never

1:19:56

seen before. And that feels unusual, you

1:19:58

know, and I do I

1:20:01

miss it because I do love King's

1:20:03

World Building and there's that really quaint

1:20:05

like county folks equality to it. But

1:20:08

I feel like he's kind of saying like the

1:20:11

more isolated we become that evil

1:20:13

is breeding and that isolation when

1:20:15

we are not held accountable by

1:20:17

the people that we know and the

1:20:19

people like this person knows me

1:20:21

and also knows Hodges. So

1:20:23

they will know if something like this

1:20:25

is brewing that doesn't exist in this world and

1:20:27

I feel like that's where the seeds of evil

1:20:30

start to kind of take root. Yeah and

1:20:32

you know it's interesting because even in,

1:20:35

obviously he doesn't let small towns off the hook either.

1:20:37

We just did Under the Dome and Under the Dome

1:20:39

is all about sort of like these festering power

1:20:42

struggles that occur in these towns and you

1:20:45

know I think everything you guys are saying is valid.

1:20:48

I buck so hard again. You miss it. Well

1:20:51

I miss the place. I miss because

1:20:53

I still, as much as the Anywhere

1:20:55

USA sort of like the

1:20:57

idea that it could happen anywhere that's, I

1:21:00

think that's valid but I would

1:21:02

rather trade that for a

1:21:04

more immersive kind of world. But

1:21:07

I will say too it's like I just buck so

1:21:09

hard against like the kind of that

1:21:13

notion of like, I don't

1:21:15

think King is like asserting this. I just think

1:21:17

it's kind of like we do live in a

1:21:19

world where we don't trust our neighbors and where

1:21:21

we don't trust like, we don't

1:21:23

trust people on the street because you know it's,

1:21:28

we have all been cultivated to live

1:21:30

so isolated and so in opposition to

1:21:32

each other. And I think that

1:21:34

this is where I'm

1:21:36

wondering about King's Bronson-ish you know qualities

1:21:39

where I'm like, do you really like

1:21:42

fear, like because

1:21:45

I think the whole idea of like fearing the

1:21:48

incel in the basement or something right? I

1:21:50

think it's valid and I do agree that

1:21:52

it's like domestic terrorism

1:21:54

has proven over and over again

1:21:56

that it's often those kinds of

1:21:58

types you know. Yeah. And

1:22:01

but I just like bristle so hard at

1:22:03

the at the idea that that

1:22:05

we should be scared of those people rather

1:22:08

than empathetic in whatever way we can because I

1:22:10

think it's the fear that drives

1:22:13

isolation further. Yeah. So

1:22:15

but these but again, I'm not like criticizing the book

1:22:17

for this because I think the book is like smart

1:22:20

about the way how it approaches it. But these

1:22:22

are like the notions and the ideas that it's

1:22:24

like raising in me in the way that I'm

1:22:27

like, I hate that, that

1:22:29

Brady's are born, but then they're also

1:22:31

cultivated by the way society treats them.

1:22:34

And that inflames what is already

1:22:36

like a fragile, twisted mind, you

1:22:38

know, it's there's a million. And

1:22:40

maybe this is like why I

1:22:42

kind of like even

1:22:44

though I like say he's a confusing character,

1:22:47

by throwing so much on top of him, I

1:22:50

think it ultimately contributes to the idea

1:22:53

of all the forces

1:22:55

that are working against people, you

1:22:57

know, yeah, that can inflame what

1:22:59

is already a twisted mind. Yeah,

1:23:02

I kind of like that he's messy. Because I feel like

1:23:04

he's very messy. He's just driven by

1:23:06

anger. And that is, yeah, maybe

1:23:08

one of the messiest emotions, because it really

1:23:10

is used to cover all of the other

1:23:12

emotions. And like, he doesn't know. And

1:23:15

I love that he's like, I don't know, I'm just I

1:23:17

just want to kill people. That is true.

1:23:19

And that's it's funny at times. Like

1:23:21

I was laughing because he's so crazy.

1:23:23

But okay, we'll talk more about that

1:23:25

in our next section. Oh,

1:23:28

actually, our next section is Here

1:23:51

in structure and format, we talked about the

1:23:53

structure and format. I don't think there's much

1:23:56

here really. We basically just bounce between Hodges

1:24:00

and Brady and then

1:24:02

occasional omniscient narrator. But,

1:24:06

and there's no, you know, sometimes he has like

1:24:08

certain flourishes he does, like where he'll start a

1:24:10

chapter by kind of listing little bullets of like

1:24:12

everything that's gonna happen in that chapter or you

1:24:14

know, things of that nature. Jen, what do you

1:24:16

have? The only thing I

1:24:18

was gonna say, and this is not

1:24:20

something that I normally pick up on,

1:24:22

so smarter heads will need to weigh

1:24:24

in, but this is written in present

1:24:26

tense pretty much throughout, right? And which

1:24:29

feels really immediate, and I don't think that's

1:24:31

something he does often. He's

1:24:33

talked about that a lot. I

1:24:36

think he's not anti first

1:24:38

person or like, you know, present

1:24:41

tense sort of writing, but, cause like

1:24:44

literally on Twitter the other day, somebody

1:24:46

had a tweet that said, you know,

1:24:48

stop writing in present tense

1:24:50

or whatever. And King was like, why?

1:24:52

Like he just replied, you know? And

1:24:54

so, but I will

1:24:57

say that is relatively rare for him.

1:24:59

He typically writes in past tense, yeah.

1:25:01

You know who wrote in present tense?

1:25:03

Harold Lauder. He wrote in present tense

1:25:05

second person, like you walk down the

1:25:07

stairs or whatever. I remember that. That's

1:25:10

funny. No, that is a good observation.

1:25:12

Any other structure and format observations? It's

1:25:15

okay if not. It's pretty short for

1:25:17

King. Or King, yeah.

1:25:19

For King, yeah. Okay,

1:25:22

cool. Wait, Rachel, what do you have? Oh, I

1:25:24

just, I do think that, you know,

1:25:26

present tense is important for a novel like this

1:25:28

to keep it feeling propulsive and

1:25:31

like to help build the tension. Because

1:25:34

if the whole thing was in past tense, it would

1:25:36

be like, well, we already know, like he's telling the

1:25:38

story, so he survived. So like, you know, it keeps

1:25:40

the stakes a bit higher because

1:25:42

we don't know what's going to happen. And

1:25:44

we don't know what's going to, you know,

1:25:46

especially having the two characters the whole time

1:25:48

flipping back and forth. Yeah.

1:25:51

It's a necessary thing,

1:25:53

I would think. Speaking of characters, it's

1:25:56

time to talk about our heroes and villains.

1:25:58

I'm gonna have to kill this fuck. Here

1:26:08

in Heroes and Villains we talk about the characters a

1:26:10

little bit more in depth. Let's talk

1:26:12

about Hodges really quick. Jen, what's your beef with

1:26:14

this man? What do you ever do

1:26:16

to you? I mean, he's fine. You

1:26:18

know what, honestly, you know what it is, is that

1:26:20

he reminds me of my dad and I got beef

1:26:22

with my dad, which is fodder for my therapist. We

1:26:25

don't need to talk about it here. I

1:26:27

think he just feels like an old

1:26:29

boomer that really

1:26:32

bugs me. I think he is a lot

1:26:34

better and a lot less annoying than he

1:26:36

could be. He does feel

1:26:38

introspective and he does feel

1:26:41

like King kind of evaluating his place

1:26:43

in the world. I love

1:26:45

that he reflects on his treatment of Olivia Trelawney.

1:26:47

I like that that's such a big part of

1:26:49

his journey. But

1:26:52

yeah, I think that's my thing is he just reminds me of

1:26:54

an old guy sitting on

1:26:56

the couch trying to figure out what to do. I'm like,

1:26:58

well, I can tell you 10 things to do that would

1:27:00

help the world. Will

1:27:02

you do them? You know? That's

1:27:04

so funny. I

1:27:07

don't like Hodges either, but mainly because I don't

1:27:09

think he's charming or funny. The

1:27:11

book seems to think that he is. Everyone

1:27:16

loves him that meets him and thinks he's

1:27:18

like, well, except for Brady. I

1:27:25

find him an unpleasant person. I

1:27:28

don't think he's a bad person, obviously. I'm not

1:27:30

judging him on that kind of metric, but I

1:27:33

think his jokes are bad. I think he's annoying.

1:27:36

I think that I have no idea what

1:27:39

Janie sees in him and everyone talks about

1:27:41

what a good copy is all the time.

1:27:43

I don't feel like I see that. I

1:27:46

also don't really buy... I feel

1:27:48

like the stakes of the suicide aren't quite there

1:27:50

for me. The idea that he actually would shoot

1:27:52

himself. I feel like that the gun...

1:27:57

Him putting the gun in his mouth or whatever, I get

1:27:59

it in the broad sense. like, okay, he's directionless

1:28:01

or whatever. But I don't

1:28:03

feel it in my

1:28:05

gut. Like, I don't feel it in the character.

1:28:07

Yeah, it's not like a ring like a high

1:28:09

shake. Yeah, the stakes is it

1:28:11

just feels like a way to drive up the

1:28:13

stakes. Like initially, like, like King put that in

1:28:16

there because he needs this character to have an

1:28:18

arc. And I think that that's

1:28:20

fine. It just doesn't quite resonate for

1:28:22

me. So yeah, I'm not

1:28:24

a Hodges guy. And that's

1:28:26

even before, you

1:28:28

know, his interactions with youth, which

1:28:31

are so cringy and uncomfortable. Not

1:28:34

even just the the

1:28:36

patois with with with Jerome, but

1:28:38

just like, he like,

1:28:40

it's hard to like, Jen, you

1:28:42

said it well, he's just a fucking

1:28:44

boomer, man. Yeah. He reminds me of

1:28:47

the worst boomers. I know. Yeah,

1:28:49

boomer with good intentions. Yeah,

1:28:51

he's, yeah, he's better. But also

1:28:53

the first

1:28:55

pages we see him with it's just like the

1:28:57

most like rank shit going through his head. He's

1:29:00

talking about these bum fights. He's talking like, I've

1:29:02

got some of it for a pound cake. And

1:29:04

then like, I don't want to read

1:29:06

a book about this guy. He's really horned

1:29:08

up. And hey, horned, he's fine. But

1:29:10

he's yeah, he's pretty. He's horny in

1:29:12

a way that makes me feel like

1:29:14

I need to go shower. Yeah,

1:29:17

yeah. Maybe he

1:29:19

does. He does. Similarly, he reminds me of

1:29:22

my dad. Who, who, who

1:29:24

are in ways that make you know, like, I

1:29:26

have a great

1:29:28

relationship with my dad. So I feel

1:29:31

like I look at a little bit differently. But he did

1:29:33

like he I can see him like he retired about

1:29:35

two years ago. And similarly, it's just

1:29:37

like, well, I can't do this. Yeah.

1:29:39

And it's so funny to me because I'll ask him

1:29:41

like, hey, can you come over? And he's like, let

1:29:43

me check my calendar. I've got a meeting. I'm

1:29:46

like, I'm meeting with who? Like, what are you doing?

1:29:49

And he has just managed to still

1:29:51

like take on other things and you

1:29:53

know, volunteer his time with certain things.

1:29:55

And because I know

1:29:57

that if he just takes a second to like

1:30:00

But still, he needs

1:30:02

to have a perfect gap. He needs to feel

1:30:04

useful. And I feel like I

1:30:06

know my dad well enough to know that

1:30:08

would be the greatest, most depressing thing is

1:30:11

to not feel useful and to not have

1:30:13

those skills and pass them on to whoever

1:30:15

or whatever, even if he's not getting a

1:30:17

paycheck, he's gonna fill his time

1:30:20

doing all sorts of things. So

1:30:22

in that way, it resonated with me because

1:30:26

I have a soft spot for that because I can

1:30:28

see how that is, at least for my

1:30:30

dad, whereas my mom is like, I'm cool,

1:30:32

I'm retired, I'm gonna

1:30:34

read books and train my dog and

1:30:36

she's happy as can be. Does

1:30:39

not necessarily need a purpose, whereas

1:30:41

he cannot sit still. But

1:30:44

what I do like about Hodges, I guess, is that

1:30:46

we do see him grow. Yeah, he talks all the

1:30:48

time about like, I'm old school, I

1:30:50

do things old school, I got my nope pad

1:30:52

and I take my nopes. This

1:30:55

is what I do. I'm like, oh, 100%,

1:30:57

but I'm glad he doesn't

1:30:59

stick with that totally. Like he does

1:31:01

kind of evolve. He second, he looks

1:31:03

at, okay, yeah, I didn't treat Olivia

1:31:05

very well. Like I can see that,

1:31:07

I acknowledge it. I'm going to try

1:31:09

to better myself, which

1:31:11

makes me not hate Hodges because yeah, he

1:31:14

does have some very, yeah, like

1:31:16

you said, eye rolling, great. I

1:31:18

literally can't articulate it, but I know Capri gets it

1:31:20

and I don't think he could articulate it either, but

1:31:22

there's like a bit in one of the later books

1:31:26

oh, I gotta eat salads because they're good

1:31:28

for me. He does, yeah. It's like Dan

1:31:30

and I just think it's so corny and

1:31:32

like just, I don't know, it's like, like

1:31:34

I said, I can't articulate it, but it

1:31:36

made us like both laugh and be like,

1:31:38

like when I wrote him into, when

1:31:40

I wrote him into Castle Rock season three, episode one,

1:31:43

like Dan wanted to add this line where they were

1:31:45

going to a restaurant. He's like, I hear the

1:31:47

salads are great. No

1:31:50

such thing doesn't exist. I just

1:31:52

like find all of his hand wringing about like

1:31:54

his weight and everything. It's like, dude, calm down.

1:31:57

Just, you have a fucking burger. He's literally like 30

1:31:59

pounds overweight. I know. But I feel like some

1:32:01

of that comes from King himself, like being anxious or

1:32:03

insecure about

1:32:10

losing control of his body

1:32:13

as he gets older. Yeah,

1:32:15

totally. Well, it also comes

1:32:17

with age too. The more overweight

1:32:19

you are as you get to

1:32:21

that age, the harder it's going.

1:32:24

Your body's already going through too

1:32:27

much. Yeah. And

1:32:30

it's impossible to lose weight when you're fucking

1:32:32

65. Yeah. But-

1:32:36

Well, see, King talks, I

1:32:38

know that he's become in his real life more concerned

1:32:41

with his health, which is great because he

1:32:43

should be. But I feel like you notice

1:32:45

it in all the books from

1:32:47

this period on, people are always talking

1:32:50

about their fucking fit fits and their

1:32:52

resting heart rate and their meals and

1:32:54

everything. And I'm just like- His doctor

1:32:56

is probably talking to him about that stuff and

1:32:58

he has to go home and talk to his

1:33:00

wife about it. And he's like, this is not

1:33:02

the stuff I used to think about. Yeah.

1:33:05

This is the stuff where I

1:33:07

always tell people, I'm like, King is all

1:33:10

over his books, like all over

1:33:12

that. Oh, yeah. Because you can just see

1:33:14

all of his own anxieties and his own

1:33:16

tastes and his own ways that he spends

1:33:19

his free time. They all infiltrate. How many

1:33:21

fucking TV shows are name dropped in this?

1:33:23

I said, King has entered into his TV

1:33:25

era in this book. And I'm going to

1:33:27

talk about that a little bit more later.

1:33:30

He got cable. He got cable. He's like,

1:33:32

man, you go back to sell, you go

1:33:34

back to his early EW columns. That motherfucker

1:33:36

was like, I don't watch TV. TV's for

1:33:38

suckers. And then he became the most- Join

1:33:40

us, Steven. Oh yeah. He became the

1:33:42

most TV-pilled man on the entire planet. And I

1:33:45

feel like this book is where you start seeing

1:33:47

it. I will

1:33:49

bring this up every opportunity I get. There is

1:33:51

a two page section in Billy Summers where that

1:33:53

motherfucker just watches the blacklist. And

1:33:56

I cannot believe that that is a real

1:33:58

thing in a book. It

1:34:00

is so funny. Okay now Well

1:34:04

because in later books

1:34:06

do we get more of a backstory?

1:34:10

With his wife and daughter No,

1:34:12

we never really get much of

1:34:14

it that which something that I

1:34:16

felt was really missing and

1:34:19

maybe would have Made

1:34:22

the suicide more. Yeah Believable

1:34:25

because he clearly you

1:34:27

know He does talk about

1:34:29

how he gets a birthday card and a Christmas

1:34:31

card from his daughter every year and

1:34:33

the Valentine's Day card Stopped five

1:34:36

years ago. So like the

1:34:38

communication. I mean it is Valentine's Day

1:34:40

cards like eventually they're gonna stop That's

1:34:42

insane, but you know he is No,

1:34:47

not since grade school my wife But

1:34:50

there is that sort of like it does seem

1:34:52

like they're communicating less and

1:34:56

Is there bad blood there? Was it a

1:34:59

bad divorce? Like we didn't get any of

1:35:01

that really in this night He says that

1:35:03

he you know, basically had to choose between

1:35:05

his wife and the job and he chose the job

1:35:07

Yeah, yeah and just leaves it at

1:35:09

that. Yeah, but he doesn't ruminate a lot

1:35:11

on like the regrets in that

1:35:13

relationship a lot of his You

1:35:16

know anytime he's thinking about

1:35:18

his past it's a lot of

1:35:20

job oriented Shame

1:35:23

and regret and guilt and honestly

1:35:25

I think this might be the book where we

1:35:27

get the most of it like I can later

1:35:29

books Because he's not in finders keepers that much

1:35:31

now. Yeah, I don't think we get much of

1:35:34

it an end of watch It's

1:35:37

a good addition to the show. They do explore

1:35:39

a little bit more. That's good. Yeah,

1:35:41

okay I want to I've given Hodges a

1:35:43

lot of shit I

1:35:47

do like him more every time I read

1:35:49

the book and there's like I think

1:35:52

seeing King on the page I think it's

1:35:54

interesting because he just had hip replacement surgery

1:35:56

He said it finally wore out and like

1:35:59

Bill is constantly worried about his weight

1:36:01

and King has never been overweight but I

1:36:03

wonder if that was on his mind too

1:36:05

like I'm putting weight on the tip. Totally.

1:36:07

How long is it gonna last? I mean

1:36:09

look at his health anxieties like as

1:36:11

they've manifested and I mean Sinner is

1:36:13

about his struggles with weight and like

1:36:16

yeah and then Dreamcatcher obviously is like

1:36:18

his most medical anxiety book ever. It's

1:36:21

like all that stuff manifests in all of his

1:36:23

in all of his work which is super interesting.

1:36:25

I love it. It's like candy for me. Yeah.

1:36:28

It's like you're psychoanalyzing it. Yeah.

1:36:32

Speaking of okay so I don't like Hodges more every

1:36:34

time I read it. I dislike him more every time

1:36:36

I read it. Fuck this old man. And

1:36:39

you know who else I dislike more every time I

1:36:41

have to read him? Jerome. I'm

1:36:43

sorry this motherfucker is too good

1:36:45

at everything. I don't believe any

1:36:47

character. I'm jealous of

1:36:49

him. Again man. Because he's

1:36:52

good at everything and he's he's good

1:36:54

at everything. He's described as taller. He

1:36:57

looks like Barack Obama but taller.

1:37:00

Like what romance novel are you writing? Like

1:37:02

come on man. I

1:37:04

just can't I don't trust any

1:37:08

how did I phrase this? I

1:37:11

don't trust anyone who feels the need to

1:37:13

constantly assert how smart, handsome or good a

1:37:15

character is. There's literally nothing more

1:37:17

boring to me than someone who is

1:37:19

good at everything. And Jen you heard

1:37:22

me rant about this shit on our

1:37:24

Holly episode because this only gets worse

1:37:26

because then Jerome's little sister gets

1:37:28

older and she's good at everything too. I

1:37:30

can't fuck with you. But in a different

1:37:32

way. But in a different way. But in

1:37:34

a different way. They haven't published writers like

1:37:36

making Zuko bucks. They are ridiculous characters and

1:37:38

I feel and I say this with all

1:37:40

the love in the world but I feel

1:37:42

like this is him apologizing for the way

1:37:44

he's written some black characters in the past

1:37:46

which has been you know especially his early

1:37:48

ones and I'm like you are overdoing it

1:37:51

sir. But Jerome cannot be

1:37:53

this perfect. And so I.

1:37:55

It almost makes you suspicious of him. Exactly.

1:37:58

Yeah. Because this

1:38:00

is, I say this in real life too. Like,

1:38:02

it's like, it's, because the thing is I don't really

1:38:05

see it in the character, I don't find the

1:38:07

character interesting. Like I don't think he's that well drawn.

1:38:09

I think he's likable. I don't think he gets a

1:38:11

lot to do. No. It's

1:38:13

like when you have a friend and they're like, oh,

1:38:15

you gotta meet my friend, you gotta meet my friend,

1:38:17

they're the funniest person ever, they're so cool. And then

1:38:19

you meet them and they're like a total dud. They're

1:38:22

like, my wife. Yeah, my wife. And then like, you

1:38:24

shouldn't have built them up that much, man, like just give

1:38:26

me a normal person with a couple of laws.

1:38:28

We know we've got another Holly book

1:38:30

coming, right? What if Jerome is a

1:38:32

serial killer? I would love that. Secretly.

1:38:35

It would, it would. Yeah, if he turned Jerome.

1:38:37

King, if you're listening, please do that, that would

1:38:39

be incredible. I would

1:38:41

love that. And it turns out he like

1:38:43

plagiarized all of his like brilliant writings and

1:38:46

everything. Barbara's been in on it the whole

1:38:48

time. Barbara's been in on it. See, I'm

1:38:50

all in on this. The Robinson family falls.

1:38:52

I think I lost my mind though. It

1:38:55

was when he described Jerome as, he looks

1:38:57

like a young Barack Obama, only taller. I

1:38:59

was like, that is, you just made like,

1:39:01

you just made like housewives across the country,

1:39:04

like, like completely orgasm. Like that is

1:39:06

ridiculous. Yeah, you just made a grand confirm.