0:01

Greetings, constant listeners, and welcome to

0:03

a special episode of The Losers

0:05

Club, a Stephen King podcast. I

0:08

am your host, Jennifer Jade Adams, and you

0:10

are in for a treat. Today

0:13

I'm joined by Shelby Novak of the

0:15

fabulous Scare You to Sleep podcast for

0:17

an interview with one of my favorite

0:20

authors, Stephen Graham Jones. We

0:22

are chatting about his brand new novel,

0:24

The Angel of Indian Lake, the final

0:26

chapter in his phenomenal Indian Lake trilogy.

0:29

This conversation is an absolute blast.

0:32

We chat about literary slashers, our

0:34

favorite final girls, small town horror,

0:36

and the breaking news that another

0:38

literary Stephen, one constant readers know

0:40

and love, will be providing a

0:42

voice for the upcoming audiobook. You

0:44

won't want to miss this exciting

0:46

conversation and you should definitely pick

0:48

up your copy of The Angel

0:50

of Indian Lake if you haven't

0:52

already. It's available now and it's

0:54

so good. Thank you

0:56

so much for joining us and I'll

0:59

be seeing you over long days and

1:01

pleasant nights. Hi,

1:03

everyone. I'm Shelby Novak and Jen Adams

1:05

and I are here today for Bloody

1:08

FM with Stephen Graham Jones, author of

1:10

The Angel of Indian Lake, the finale

1:12

of the Indian Lake trilogy. Hi, Stephen.

1:14

Thank you so much for being with

1:16

us today. It's wonderful to be speaking with

1:18

you all. Thanks for having me. I

1:21

am a co-host of the Losers Club podcast,

1:24

which is a podcast about Stephen King and

1:27

hot off the presses. I know that news just

1:29

broke that Stephen King is going to be voicing

1:31

part of the audiobook for The Angel

1:33

of Indian Lake. I am a huge

1:36

audiobook fan. I listened to the audiobooks of

1:38

both My Heart Does a Chainsaw and Don't Fear

1:40

the Reaper and I loved them. I

1:42

know you're a King fan as well, right? Oh,

1:45

yeah. I've been reading King since, I guess

1:47

since 88, probably right around there.

1:50

Yeah, I've stuck with him the whole time and I dig his stuff

1:52

and it's an amazing honor to have

1:54

him, you know, do a little thing

1:56

for the audiobook. That's so cool. I

1:59

think I would just die. If that were to happen. Thank

2:02

you. And also, so that Barbara Crampton is going to

2:04

be one of the voices too. Yeah. Are you

2:06

going to be voicing anything? Are you going to be reading

2:08

your acknowledgement again? Definitely an acknowledgement. And

2:11

I have yet to hear the final version, so

2:13

I'm not sure if I'm doing anything else or

2:15

not. Well,

2:17

and I don't know if you can tell us or not. I

2:19

have a, you know, if I'm listening,

2:21

thinking about the voices that voice don't hear the

2:23

reaper, you know, that voice is kind of going

2:25

in and out. I

2:28

have a guess about what King is going to be reading. Do

2:30

you know, or can you tell us? I

2:32

do know, but I don't think they have released

2:34

me to say yet. No. We'll

2:38

be on the lookout for that news. And I

2:41

just love his voice so much. So I cannot wait

2:43

to hear if it's the part I have in mind.

2:45

I think it would be a great fit for that.

2:48

So, yeah, we are talking about the Angel

2:50

of Indian Lake, which is the third book

2:52

in a trilogy, including My Heart is a

2:54

Chainsaw and Don't Fear the Reaper. And

2:57

so my question is, what keeps drawing me

2:59

back to Jay Daniels? Man,

3:02

it's, you know, I never planned

3:04

on this being a trilogy at all. And I think,

3:07

I mean, it became a trilogy when Joe Monti at

3:09

Saga, my editor, when he said, what if you didn't

3:11

kill everybody at the end of Chainsaw? And so, you

3:14

know, I stubbornly wrote him a version where not

3:17

everybody died and turns out that opened it up

3:19

into a trilogy. So I'm eternally thankful to him

3:21

for prompting me to do that. But

3:24

what keeps drawing me back to Jay Daniels, I

3:27

think it's that I want to let her

3:29

finish her development for good or

3:31

for bad. You know? I

3:34

feel like, I mean, at the end

3:36

of Chainsaw, that's sort of, it's an

3:38

ending of the dramatic line, but it's not

3:40

an ending of the narrative. You know? It's

3:43

more like the end of Act One. And then Reaper is Act

3:45

Two, and then Angel is Act Three. I

3:48

feel like I'd be doing her a disservice if I didn't

3:50

let her go the distance, you know?

3:53

Yeah. Yeah, I do. And

3:55

I think about, like, one of my favorite horror

3:58

trilogies is Scream, Scream One. two

4:00

and three and I know screen three is

4:02

kind of maligned. I happen to love it

4:04

and I think that the ending of

4:06

screen three is just a

4:08

perfect ending for Sydney. But

4:11

I also hear Randy Meeks in that movie

4:13

saying you know anyone can die Sid, even

4:15

you. So did you have kind of like

4:17

a no holds barred approach going into the

4:19

third chapter knowing that it was going to

4:21

be the end? I did

4:24

yes I knew that but I

4:26

guess as a horror novelist with

4:28

any horror thing all right if

4:30

all the main players are

4:33

still alive at the end of the book then I've

4:35

done something wrong. You know I haven't had the nerve

4:37

to face down what needs to be faced down. So

4:41

yeah there were hard decisions to be made

4:43

and things that I immediately regretted but if

4:45

they're good for the story you gotta do

4:47

them you know. Yeah yeah.

4:51

Awesome well that brings me to my next question

4:53

is so as an author and no

4:55

spoilers I'm trying not to spoil the book since it's just

4:58

coming out. So you not only

5:00

had to say goodbye to Jade after three

5:02

books but to Letha as well. So how

5:04

did that feel like to wrap up Letha's

5:06

story? Oh I know in

5:10

the first installment in Myers and Chainsaw

5:12

I kind of

5:14

thought her story was done you know

5:17

but then. I thought her story was

5:19

done too. Who did I that's why I

5:21

was so interested. She would just start it

5:23

as this object of Jade's slasher dreams and

5:26

turned into so much more. I know yeah

5:28

then in Reaper I mean you know she's with

5:30

Banner she's got a daughter her and Jade are

5:33

best friends you know and

5:36

I really liked that their

5:39

friendship can be like the core of all

5:41

this you know that means a lot to

5:43

me. It means a lot to me that

5:45

Jade gets to have a friend if that

5:47

makes sense you know it just makes me

5:49

so happy and um and

5:51

yeah so I had to figure

5:53

out a way to let Letha continue with

5:55

her arc but do so in some

5:58

way that doesn't um you know, detract

6:01

from great jade's development, which has to

6:03

be primary, you know, and it was

6:06

fun, and it was hard. And luckily,

6:09

her like development in this

6:11

third book, was able

6:13

to let me kind of answer

6:16

what's been a continual problem to the first

6:18

two books, you know, if that makes sense.

6:22

Yes, definitely. Yeah. Yeah.

6:26

And I, you know, I love

6:28

final girls. I love flashers. I'm

6:30

actually wearing a final dress shirt.

6:33

They're they're what drew me into heart to

6:35

begin with. Yeah. You know,

6:37

I'm also a Jennifer who doesn't go by Jen

6:40

Jennifer, who dyes my hair. And you know, I

6:42

don't want to go too deep into some of

6:44

the other things that I have in common with

6:46

Jade. But I felt really seen by her. And

6:49

I just really fell in love with

6:51

this character. She

6:53

sees the world through flashers. And you

6:55

know, you mentioned saying goodbye to the

6:57

characters. And I think part of what

7:00

makes a final girl

7:02

a final girl and what makes us drawn to them

7:04

is that they have to deal with so much trauma.

7:07

And I love the use

7:09

of flashers and kind of flasher

7:11

revenge, as we watch Jade kind

7:14

of deal with some of her trauma. So

7:17

I was just curious, like, how

7:19

do you see flashers playing a

7:21

part in Jade's life? And

7:23

why do you think she's so drawn to these films? Um,

7:26

I think she is drawn to

7:28

the slasher genre, because she

7:31

feels there's a lot of injustice

7:33

in her life and her situation.

7:35

In high school, she especially

7:37

felt that and what flashers do is they rebalance

7:39

some skills, you know, they come in with a

7:41

machete and they kill and needs to be killed.

7:43

And when Jade is 17, she thinks there's a

7:45

lot of people who need killing, you know, and,

7:48

but you're right, then it then after,

7:51

you know, something rises, and there's

7:53

a big massacre on the

7:55

lake while watching jobs. It does

8:00

The Indian like cozy does Have

8:03

to deal with the trauma of that, you know Like

8:05

I feel like I would be doing everyone a disservice

8:07

if I pretended like well We just reset and now

8:09

we're gonna do it again, you know, like it

8:12

seems like most slashers do pull a

8:14

reset between Installments

8:17

such that we can start out from zero

8:19

again, but there's that accumulated trauma You know,

8:21

it builds up and builds up and it's got

8:23

to be dealt with or it's gonna find its own way out And

8:26

not just for Jade as a final

8:28

girl, but for the community as well,

8:30

you know there's no if you've

8:32

had a massacre in your town, then It's

8:35

gonna be hard to to get away from that, you know,

8:37

you don't and who do you even want to get away

8:39

from it? You know, it becomes like

8:41

part of your identity in a way and you've

8:43

got to learn how to work it in Stuff

8:46

that it doesn't corrupt or corrode, you know.

8:49

Yeah, like the card, you know,

8:51

and I love the The

8:54

you know and again, I'm we're not gonna spoil

8:56

anything For a little

8:58

layer you talk about the meaning of Jade and

9:00

how it smashes and reforms And it's

9:02

that it was such a beautiful description of the

9:04

character. Thank you. Thank you Yeah,

9:08

and that's one thing I love to like you talked

9:10

about community in this small community You

9:12

said it in the small town of proof rock

9:15

which almost became a character in itself and I'm

9:17

from a small town so I really identified with

9:19

the Prying eyes and gossip

9:21

and all the things that come along

9:23

with a very small town So is

9:25

there a reason you were drawn to set it

9:28

somewhere like this? You

9:30

know, I needed it to be somewhere isolated

9:32

and isolated enough that there wouldn't be like

9:34

a SWAT response team, you know so

9:38

So a small town like isolation isolate

9:40

like the isolating like sequence is always

9:42

a big part of the slasher whether

9:44

it's um You know the

9:46

high school reunion or a house out in the woods

9:48

during a storm or whatever it is You know, so

9:51

I needed something like that and I just decided to

9:53

build it in running the stage it but

9:55

tell you the truth The real reason it's

9:57

a small town is probably that I grew up in small towns

10:00

And so I know the rhythm,

10:02

the pulse, and like

10:05

you say, the fact that everyone

10:07

remembers that you're the one who peed their pants

10:09

in first grade and you never outlive that. Yeah,

10:15

for better or worse, because sometimes it's

10:17

those bonds that you form when you're

10:20

so young and people that you've known

10:22

forever through all of those hard things,

10:24

but also the good things. And

10:26

that's why it feels so hard to say

10:28

goodbye to some of these characters too. It

10:31

really does. I feel like I've gotten to

10:33

know the entire town at this point. You

10:35

know? No. Yeah. I

10:38

know. I mean, I finished... Go

10:40

ahead. Oh no. I

10:42

mean, it's so tempting to turn like Prufrock or Indian

10:44

Lake or all the whole, like, what is it, Fremont

10:46

County? It's tempting to turn

10:48

it into like Faulkner's Giacomatala County, where there's

10:50

just stories happening everywhere for 15 or 20

10:53

books, you know? But I feel like that

10:55

would be... I mean, it's

10:58

really tempting to do that, but I feel like I'm

11:01

mean, but I'm not that mean, you know? To

11:04

have like a dude... They've been through

11:06

enough. Yeah, exactly. Exactly. They've

11:09

earned some time off, I feel like, you know?

11:11

They really have. I mean, even after my

11:13

heart is a chainsaw, I think they deserved

11:15

a little vacation. I think so, yeah. Yeah.

11:19

Yeah. And it's interesting you're talking about

11:21

it almost becoming part of your identity,

11:23

especially because this book does start out

11:26

with a resident of the town really

11:28

kind of trying to put her stamp

11:30

on the world through telling the story

11:32

of her town. And it's a really

11:34

interesting kind of meta cycle, like, element

11:37

of the story. If you look at this as the third

11:39

piece of a trilogy, and part of

11:41

why I love Ninety Slasher so much too is

11:43

because they're referencing old ones. And, you know, that's,

11:45

I think, a hallmark of these books. Is

11:49

that kind of an intentional, like, meta

11:51

quality thing with the documentary? Yeah,

11:54

definitely it was. I think

11:56

all of us who play in Slasherland are...

12:00

challenged by probably

12:02

the opening of

12:04

Scream 4, where you're falling through successive levels

12:06

of reality and you don't know where your

12:08

footing is, you know? And so I think

12:12

that prologue in Angel is probably

12:14

playing with that a little bit.

12:16

But it's also, and I

12:19

don't even know if I should say this, but why

12:21

not? You know, when Jade first appeared

12:23

to me, like the first draft I did of Chainsaw,

12:25

it was called Lake Access Only, she was not there

12:27

at all. When I broke it all down and

12:30

rebuilt it from the ground

12:32

up, all I started with again, I had

12:34

Indian Lake, Terranova, Prufrock, and the sheriff. And

12:36

so I was like, I

12:39

decided to start after the massacre. And so there

12:41

I was, you know, in my head standing on

12:43

the pier, looking at all these bodies floating in

12:45

the water. And then Jade kind

12:47

of stood up from the water and she had

12:49

a notebook and she was writing down how this

12:51

all looks to her and why and who this

12:53

person was because she was an insider and she

12:55

was going to use this book she was writing

12:58

as her ticket out of Prufrock. And

13:00

so that character

13:02

in the prologue to me is

13:04

kind of like a

13:07

revival of that early version of Jade, you

13:09

know? And that's why Jade, to me, that's why Jade

13:11

kind of invests so

13:13

much in that dude, that girl,

13:16

you know? That's

13:19

so interesting to think of a different world than

13:21

the one we got with Jade. Oh, yeah. Really.

13:25

Yeah, well, the original narrator, the

13:28

original narrator for the novel was a 10 year

13:31

old kid in an iron mask, you know?

13:34

Oh, wow. That's so interesting.

13:36

Well, I wanted to ask you, so

13:38

a lot of horror either picks paranormal

13:47

or picks real life slashers and you

13:49

really melded the two. And,

13:51

you know, Jen and I were actually discussing before

13:54

we talked to you was some people

13:56

get a little bit gatekeepy as well when it comes

13:58

to slashers, like they don't want paranormal in their

14:00

slashers, but you beautifully melded both

14:03

of these together. And what gave you the

14:05

idea to even inject some paranormal aspects? Because

14:07

throughout, I gotta say, through the heart of

14:10

the chainsaw, I was not expecting it to

14:12

actually go supernatural the way it did. Yeah.

14:15

And there was two

14:17

or three versions of my Heart to

14:19

Chainsaw where it never went supernatural. There

14:23

was a version of it where Luther

14:26

Mondragon's father Theo was the one

14:28

doing the massacre, you know? But

14:31

I finally decided that everyone,

14:34

like the trick with a slasher is

14:36

you're basically riding an Agatha Christie. And

14:39

the trick there is you've got to keep

14:41

your cards hidden, you know? And slasher fans

14:43

know the formula, the conventions, they know it

14:45

so well that if you give them three

14:48

pieces, they can guess what piece 12 is

14:50

going to be. And so I

14:54

found it the best way I could like

14:56

keep the reader on their back feet or

14:58

keep them like

15:00

where they can be potentially surprised was

15:02

to do just what you're saying to

15:04

go back and forth from, is it

15:08

a revenge slasher? Is it a supernatural slasher?

15:10

You know, and kind of modulate between the

15:12

two. And in my Heart to

15:14

Chainsaw, I had to have Jade for

15:17

all of her slasher queue, I had to have

15:20

some of her guesses be a

15:23

little bit wrong, but very much in

15:25

keeping with what she emotionally needs at the same time.

15:27

So they had to be valid to her, you know?

15:30

And yeah, and then and don't

15:33

for the Reaper, I had to figure

15:35

out all over again how to surprise

15:37

the reader, which

15:39

became exponentially more difficult with Angel of

15:41

Indian Lake. And you

15:44

know, the one, if I have a

15:46

guiding light for Angel of Indian Lake, I think it

15:48

would be two different texts.

15:50

And that would be

15:53

Narmu on Elm Street Three Dream

15:55

Warriors, you know, and it

15:58

would probably be the sixth installment of

16:00

Night mirror as well. You remember it

16:02

opens with Freddie on the

16:04

Wizard of Oz broom and all he's

16:06

cackling like the witch. It's over the

16:08

top ridiculous. There's so much going on.

16:12

And because there's

16:14

so much going on in that six

16:16

installment, it's really hard for the audience

16:18

to give weight to this or this

16:20

or this to try to string a

16:22

narrative through. And

16:26

so in Angel,

16:28

that's kind of what I tried to do. I

16:31

tried to make it where you don't know

16:34

that that stuff's happening. It's

16:36

probably larger than

16:38

life, like supernatural, paranormal, something like that.

16:41

But there's so much going

16:43

on that you don't know what to give credence

16:45

or weight to. The

16:48

problem with that is it's a lot to

16:50

manage and juggle and balance. I

16:55

can imagine. Well,

16:57

and I will say, I think you

16:59

did it very well. And you surprised

17:01

me all three times. I did not

17:03

see all three times. And

17:06

I really thought I knew I was like,

17:08

Oh, I see. I thought I was lethal

17:10

for a little bit. I admit in chainsaw,

17:12

I was kind of like, well, I've already

17:15

figured it out. I guess I'll keep going.

17:17

But I'm so

17:19

glad I did. I did not

17:21

see it coming a mile away. Wonderful.

17:25

My goal of chainsaw was, I

17:27

wanted the reader to think they were in one

17:30

story. And then they get in that swan boat

17:32

with Leitha and Jade and they slowly pedal into

17:34

another story. That's what I

17:36

wanted. That's exactly what it felt

17:38

like. We stumbled onto the

17:41

wrong movie set. Like, wait, we're in this

17:43

movie over here. Which movie is this? Yeah.

17:46

But the right one, because it's like, that's where

17:48

the emotions are leaving you. Exactly. That's when they

17:51

get in that boat. That's when I fell in

17:53

love with both of them. It

17:56

went from just being a story I was really invested

17:58

into. I really, these

18:01

characters really need something to me. I

18:03

should find, I should find a way to do a photo shoot

18:05

in one of those swan boats. I never thought of that. That'd

18:07

be fun. You

18:13

could do photo shoots and they could

18:15

like marry you together, like jumping out.

18:20

Like that picture of Jamie Lee Curtis where she's kissing her

18:22

own four. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. That

18:24

would be so cool. Yeah, that would be cool. One

18:26

of the things that I really love about this

18:29

whole trilogy and one of the things I

18:31

love so much about Jade and Lisa is

18:33

kind of this exploration of what a final

18:35

girl can be, who is the

18:37

final girl. What should she look like? What should

18:39

she act like? And Jade kind of realizing

18:42

that she can become the center of her

18:45

own story, you know, and

18:47

I'm going to read a section. And

18:50

again, no spoilers it is from the end, but you

18:52

say on page 419, you said, there's

18:55

final girls everywhere. Aren't there? I used

18:57

to think they were the rarest breed,

18:59

the finest vintage, but everyone who's

19:02

got something to fight for, they'll fight for

19:04

it. Nevermind if it's a fight, they should

19:06

win. Should, doesn't always matter. What

19:08

does it that you run screaming into the thing

19:10

and don't stop until it's over. And that was

19:12

when I started crying in the last chapter and

19:15

I didn't stop until the end. But

19:17

I want to ask about Jade as

19:20

a final girl, how you see final

19:22

girls. Has your idea of a

19:24

final girl evolved as you've written this trilogy?

19:26

It has. Yes. Um, like

19:29

the trick with Jade is that like most of the

19:31

world, from, from

19:33

seeing so many different iterations of the

19:36

slasher, he has

19:38

invested or kind of invested

19:40

really, she's kind of been

19:42

brainwashed into subscribing to this

19:44

notion that the final girl is

19:46

upon a pedestal. She's this

19:48

beautiful princess athlete, supermodel, scholar,

19:51

um, feeds, you know, bottle

19:53

feeds, kittens, like everything, every possible good

19:55

aspect you can have, that's the final

19:58

girl. And, and, um, That's

20:00

just what we see over and over like Ripley Laurie,

20:02

you know Nancy all of them and I'm there

20:05

none of them are bad I'm not saying that at all, but

20:07

um, I think the function the

20:09

final girl can serve for all of us

20:11

is to Be a model

20:13

for how to push back against the bullies in

20:16

our lives, you know We're all not gonna face

20:18

somebody in a hockey mask, but we're gonna face

20:20

a bad boss We're gonna face a teacher who

20:22

pushes us around. We're gonna face somebody in the

20:24

hall who wants our lunch money Whatever it is.

20:26

Those are the bullies. Those are the slashers in

20:28

our lives and final girls teach

20:31

us that you can push back You can

20:33

fight and but part of that is

20:36

You the final girl space Identity

20:39

has to be a space that we can step

20:41

into and if the final girl is on a

20:43

pedestal that's so high We can't get up to

20:45

her, you know and Jade feels like the final

20:47

girl is irreproachable

20:49

she's perfect and And

20:52

she knows or suspects or thinks

20:54

that she's not perfect she and

20:56

therefore she doesn't qualify to be

20:58

a final girl and Hopefully

21:00

if the readers take anything home with them after

21:02

this trilogy, I want them to understand that Being

21:05

a final girl is not about

21:07

how the world sees you being a final girl

21:09

is what you've got inside, you know That's

21:13

what that's what I want. Definitely I

21:15

wish these books had been around when I was

21:17

a teenager because I feel like teenage me he

21:19

would have identified so much with Jade and would

21:22

have gotten so much out of that sentiment that

21:24

you just shared with us because I Feel

21:27

like I had like the same ideas of like the

21:29

world as Jade and I was the same weird, you

21:31

know watching flashers, you know doing

21:33

all that not having a ton of friends

21:35

type person and hearing that

21:38

and seeing her Evolved through the book and realizing

21:40

she doesn't have to be alone when she realizes

21:42

Lisa and her can be friends and she doesn't

21:44

have to be alone and Like

21:47

you said the the evolution of the final girl

21:49

as in what it is what

21:51

it's supposed to be is just stunning

21:53

I thank you. You know, I

21:55

think if there is like if I ever

21:58

say any of that explicitly be

22:00

in that part you just you just you just read.

22:02

Um or there's

22:04

also that bit in

22:06

Reaper whether her and Leitha

22:08

are crossing the ice you know and she

22:10

says the horror the horror movies get it

22:12

wrong it's not about one final girl it's about

22:15

a whole sea of final girls you know.

22:18

Yeah yeah and that's I think

22:21

you mentioned you know wanting Jade to have a

22:23

friend and that's as much

22:25

as I love Laurie and I love you know

22:27

I also love that we get a nod to

22:29

Adrienne King as Alice because I think she's kind

22:31

of an unsung final girl um no

22:34

they feel so lonely and I that's one

22:36

of the reasons I think I love Sydney

22:38

so much is that she stands together and

22:40

I feel like that was an evolution of

22:42

final girl kind of lore and I feel

22:44

like this trilogy is an evolution of it

22:46

too it's moving moving the genre forward. Well

22:49

thank you thank you and yeah it's important to

22:51

me too that um of course Jade

22:53

is Blackfeet and Leitha is Black you know the

22:55

the two the two girls who are at the

22:57

front of this charge um are not in keeping

23:00

with all the final girls we've seen for 40

23:03

50 years you know. Definitely yeah

23:06

yeah I really I hope I I mean I don't

23:08

know if this is something you'd ever want but I

23:11

could I could picture the movie in my head I

23:13

can just I was like fan casting

23:15

myself which have you done by the way have

23:17

you had any like fan casts of your own um

23:20

you know I talked to a lot

23:22

of Hollywood people and they always asked me who do

23:24

you want here who you want there and I never

23:26

I never really have any idea you know um the

23:29

only the only one that I'm that I

23:31

think would actually work pretty good is um oh

23:34

now Idris Elba I think he'd be a

23:36

pretty good deal Mondragon you know. Oh he

23:38

would be he's handsome he can yeah

23:41

he oh my god yeah can totally

23:43

pull off that rich like oh yeah

23:45

that'd be perfect yeah oh could we

23:47

get Zendaya as uh Leitha oh that

23:50

would be nice it would be perfect

23:52

I mean the top model like it's

23:54

yeah basically exactly what you described you're

23:56

right I never thought of that yeah

23:58

let's make it it

24:00

happen. Let's do it. Yeah,

24:03

yeah, she could totally do that. I never even considered

24:05

that. That's good. I

24:07

think today I can do anything personally. She's

24:11

a final girl in my heart. Well,

24:14

I want to ask about your relationship to

24:16

Slashers because one of the joys I think

24:18

of reading these books and being

24:20

a horror fan, you know, I love A

24:22

Bay of Blood. I feel like it doesn't

24:25

get mentioned as much as it should. But

24:28

I love reading all of these

24:30

references. And I'm serious, like

24:32

what are your favorite franchises, favorite

24:35

Slashers? Who are your favorite final

24:37

girls? Oh, man, that's a

24:39

good question. I think my favorite final girl

24:41

is probably Nancy Thompson from Not Around Elm

24:43

Street. And the reason I respect her the

24:46

most is that when it comes

24:48

down to it to the final battle with Freddie,

24:50

she doesn't try to use her muscles. She uses her

24:53

mind. She sets all those

24:55

traps, you know, and I think that's so

24:57

much better than doing toe to toe, you know, muscle

24:59

for muscle, blow for blow. My favorite

25:03

Flasher, you know,

25:05

individual installment is Scream. I remember when I saw

25:07

Scream in 96, I then saw it six times

25:09

after I saw it seven times in a row,

25:11

you know, because all the homework I've been doing

25:14

my whole life was this was the test, you

25:16

know, I felt like I

25:18

hadn't been wasting my life, you know.

25:20

Totally. Yeah, I mean, of course, I'm

25:24

always a love, love, love Halloween

25:26

78, you know, I like the new trilogy

25:28

too. But I think actually the

25:31

Flasher franchise that has

25:34

stayed the most honest to itself, it's

25:36

probably Final Destination, you know, I

25:38

think it has done such a

25:40

good place. Yeah, it really has.

25:43

Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. No,

25:46

they're so good. I mean, top play has been pretty

25:49

honest to itself as well. You know, if if

25:52

you like, if you like excise seed and

25:54

seed and bride, then I think it does

25:56

a pretty good nothing against those,

25:58

but they told my don't quite fit

26:00

with the rest, you know? Yeah. The

26:02

fall destination, it just it knows what

26:06

good it knows what it is.

26:09

It never stopped being fun

26:11

either. Like the original kills in

26:13

every final destination is what everyone

26:15

is excited for every time and

26:17

they outdo themselves every time. They

26:19

do. Like wait, they always have some version

26:21

of the I'm following a log truck on

26:23

the interstate. What's gonna happen? Oh my gosh,

26:26

yes. It just forever changes

26:28

the way all of us drive. It

26:30

does. Okay, so what's your favorite final

26:32

destination? Oh man, probably three. I

26:34

like three a lot. Oh, the roller

26:36

coaster. Yeah, I like that a lot. How about

26:38

y'all? What's y'all's favorite? Mine's

26:41

definitely two. I had to leave the room

26:43

for three when they're on that roller coaster

26:45

because it's so I was so scared. I

26:47

think three is mine too but it's because I

26:50

love roller coasters and there was something about it

26:52

that added an extra thrill to every roller coaster

26:54

I went on after that. Yeah. Oh, what if

26:56

I die? I remember I saw three the afternoon,

27:02

the Friday it came out and I met

27:04

Nate and it was just

27:06

a packed house wall to wall. I was

27:08

in Austin, Texas, I believe. And when it

27:10

went over, everyone stood up and clapped as

27:12

if the director and cast were there. You

27:14

know, we were just all so thrilled to

27:16

have had this experience. And I love it

27:18

when you can hit a screening like that,

27:21

you know, of true believers. Yeah, that's

27:23

so exciting. Yeah, I

27:25

still remember when I saw screen for the first time

27:27

too. I was 16 and I was like, Sydney's

27:31

my girl. Like I remember what I

27:33

was wearing to the theater too. It's

27:35

that exact same thing. More memory. Yeah.

27:37

Like when you have that kind of

27:39

experience, it just, it pulls you in

27:41

and I think you just kind of

27:43

become a slasher devotee. I think

27:45

it is. You know, hopefully people are experiencing

27:47

that again with freaky happy death day. It

27:50

follows with all the new slashers, you know,

27:53

it makes me so jealous that there's people who are walking

27:55

into the slasher genre via happy death day

27:57

or something. You know, that's just so wonderful.

28:00

That's a great franchise. So

28:02

much to experience, you know.

28:06

Well, and so, you know, as we're reading

28:08

these, I love all of the nods, you

28:10

know, I'm a fan of

28:12

Silent Night, Deadly Night. Also, and so

28:14

you know, that plays a part in

28:16

Delt Fear the Reaper. How

28:18

did you structure this? Like, I want to

28:21

ask about like, kind of your creative process

28:23

that these references come to you as a

28:25

part of the story, or did you kind

28:27

of outline them? No, never

28:29

outline. They just they spring up. And you know,

28:31

I learned that I did a

28:34

novel in 2006. Well, I wrote it in 1999. It

28:36

came out in the sixth demon theory. And that

28:38

book has just as many references as Chainsaw

28:41

and Reaper and Angel, but it puts them

28:43

in the footnotes mostly. And

28:45

I realized once I was doing those footnotes

28:47

that I couldn't write to the

28:49

footnote, you know, I couldn't write to the

28:51

reference, I had to let I

28:53

had to write the characters in the story

28:56

and let what footnotes come up come up.

28:58

And that's what I did

29:00

once I got to Chainsaw. I let it

29:03

just as as triggered

29:05

by, you know, Jade's associations, that

29:07

was basically where the references went.

29:09

And, you know, there's all those

29:11

lists, I see those lists on

29:13

letterboxed of people who sift

29:16

through these three, these two books

29:18

so far and kind of pull

29:20

out all the films and put, you know, make lit make

29:23

amazing. Yeah, it's pretty cool. And but

29:25

I don't have any way to check if they're accurate or not,

29:28

because I didn't keep less myself. You know,

29:32

is like rattling through your head, you know,

29:35

and then come out. I would have that

29:37

I would sometimes have to jump over to IMDB to

29:39

make sure this was 86, 87. Sometimes I'm fogging on

29:43

that stuff. You know, I felt like I could

29:45

feel those conversations with yourself as an author

29:47

when sometimes Jade would question herself and say,

29:49

Oh, wait, it was 86 87. Yeah. And

29:51

I was like, I feel

29:54

like he's having those conversations with himself.

29:57

And I'm glad you can hear

29:59

that. And I

30:01

did let Jay make some mistakes too,

30:03

you know, like yeah, like in the in

30:05

the first one nobody ever

30:07

calls me out for but she makes a mistake

30:09

about Halloween and um, And

30:12

it's always fun for me to say something that's

30:14

just a shade away from true, but it's still

30:16

definitely wrong You know, it makes me makes me

30:18

feel like a fiction writer. Yeah Yeah

30:22

Well, and like, you know, I think for

30:24

someone my age, you know, I just said I

30:26

was 16 when scream came out So, you know

30:28

anybody who's good at that can tell they have

30:31

like I formed a lot of these memories before

30:33

IMDB existed You know and I

30:35

swore for years that Vigo

30:37

from Ghostbusters 2 and the bad guy

30:40

from kindergarten cop were the same people

30:42

the same actor and nobody could prove

30:44

me wrong I

30:46

love it. Like it's just a

30:48

piece of kind of the storyteller. It's a

30:50

piece of who Jade is Tell

30:53

it to who you are, you know, I find

30:55

myself like that's how Stephen King is for me

30:57

I just find myself talking about Stephen King and

30:59

random parts of the day and half the time

31:02

people don't even realize I'm doing it But

31:06

I love I definitely came away with a couple

31:08

of slashers that I haven't seen I'm

31:11

glad to hear that someone's made lists on letterbox

31:14

because I'm gonna make this Here but

31:16

yeah, I wanted to also talk since we were

31:18

talking about the structure So you

31:20

have interludes in each book did in

31:22

you know, what's it starts with chainsaw

31:25

with J's essays And then

31:27

it you know at the Baker solutions

31:29

here in our final book And you

31:31

know, what made you think to

31:33

do these what like I love that they continue

31:35

when I got to Reaper actually I was like,

31:38

I really hope this continues because I love that

31:40

in the first book But I know there were

31:42

no more essays left. So yeah, you know you

31:44

came up with something for every novel so far

31:47

Yeah, no And

31:50

um, no, it was tricky to do the

31:52

third time around you know the the second

31:54

time around it was a little easier because

31:57

I was able to play

31:59

with for two or three of those interludes, I was

32:01

able to play with who's doing this, you know? And that was,

32:03

I was able to be tensioned in a different way, which was

32:06

really fun. But Jade's Slasher

32:08

101 essays and My Heart is a Chainsaw,

32:10

they didn't show up until, I

32:13

would guess about a month or

32:15

five weeks before the book was finalized.

32:19

Wow. Yeah. And I wrote them all

32:21

in a rush and they

32:23

were each about 10 or 12 pages long. And then

32:25

I gave them to the editor and they ate my

32:27

agent. And they said, they said, these are fun, but

32:29

you're just indulging yourself. Nobody's gonna listen to you talk

32:31

slashers this long. And they

32:33

were right. So they said, you've got to cut each

32:35

of these down to two pages. And so I made

32:38

myself do that, except for two of them, two of

32:40

them go over two pages, if I remember correctly. And

32:43

that was like heartbreaking, but I understand that

32:45

it made the story move a lot better if I

32:47

wasn't like letting Jade go on and on and on.

32:50

Yet, like if you don't put a cap on Jade,

32:52

she will go on and on and on, you know?

32:55

So I had to do that. And

32:58

then in the second one in

33:00

Reaper, I found that

33:02

it was a different way I could pour

33:05

exposition into the story, which was really fun,

33:07

you know, because Jade isn't gonna sit there

33:09

and ruminate upon proof rock

33:11

history, you know? But someone

33:14

writing a history report

33:16

could, you know? And

33:18

then in Angel, I had to

33:20

go even beyond the history report

33:23

like format and forging the new

33:25

territory, which was, it was

33:27

really tricky. I had to do a

33:29

lot of research to figure out how

33:32

to produce the kind of reports these

33:34

are and how to kind of adopt

33:36

that really restrictive language. You know, it

33:39

wasn't natural, but I think

33:42

the Jade essays, the Flasher 101s, they

33:45

were the easiest of anything to write. And

33:47

the Baker Solutions and Angel, they were probably

33:49

the most difficult, right? The

33:51

tone shift is, it really feels like,

33:54

I really enjoy going from the fervor

33:56

of Jade to the Baker Solutions

33:59

and just seeing. almost in

34:01

themselves just the interludes themselves have

34:03

evolved and changed through the years

34:06

of the books you know and like even if

34:08

you just read those you could really

34:10

understand a lot of these books I mean

34:12

with the fur with chainsaw that's how I

34:14

really learned Jade right off the bat was

34:16

this is who she is because you could

34:19

feel it's so funny you say they were

34:21

rushed because I can almost feel that from

34:23

Jade this like again this fervor of I'm

34:25

writing this at 1 a.m. in my bedroom

34:27

and you know just like because I need

34:30

these extra points and they don't make any

34:32

sense but they make sense to me and

34:34

like they're a little rambly but like in

34:36

the most beautiful teenage girl way and I

34:39

it's and then you get to

34:41

the Baker solutions which are so serious and

34:43

it's like this is it here we

34:45

are at the end you know yeah no

34:48

it was really it was really fun to

34:52

do that tone shift like over the course of

34:54

three books you know because the trick

34:56

is what you're what you what I was kind of

34:58

messing with is redirect expectations because in book two they

35:00

were expecting Jade to do the interludes you know and

35:03

then what's it was a good point that you can

35:05

see Jade the

35:11

best when she is writing like without

35:13

the filters on you know and I'm

35:16

but of course I couldn't do that for

35:18

Angel because she is the one narrating this

35:20

book so her filters are already off and

35:24

like listen to listen to Jade

35:26

for nearly 500 pages that's like dreaming from a fire

35:28

hose you know so we needed some break we need

35:30

some breaks in there well

35:33

and there's one you know another kind of tone

35:35

shift at the very end of those solutions

35:38

that again I was already crying but you

35:40

know it's just so sweet that part you're talking

35:42

about that

35:45

that's surprising I know I know that

35:47

was gonna happen you know I had

35:49

no idea yeah well

35:52

the whole role of teachers I think surprised

35:54

me that's another thing I wanted to ask

35:57

you about I'm a former teacher I

35:59

know you're a teacher And,

36:01

you know, I think it's such a beautiful

36:04

relationship we see with Jade and, you know,

36:06

the history teachers, you know, some

36:08

less beautiful than others. And again, I don't

36:10

want to spoil anything, but we have a

36:13

new history teacher when the Angel of Indians

36:15

Lake opens. So can you talk

36:17

a little bit about the role of

36:19

teachers in this trilogy and just kind of how

36:22

your relationship with teaching, being a

36:24

teacher, being taught? Yeah. Well,

36:27

I mean, yeah, the role of teachers over

36:30

three installments, I realized

36:32

really quickly that I

36:35

was basically doing, what's

36:37

it called in Harry Potter, the dark arts teachers,

36:39

you know, who, who, who, who did the dark arts

36:41

teachers in the first year, which I thought was

36:46

wonderful. You

36:48

know, and so I had to steal some

36:50

version of it for myself. But

36:53

yeah, like in the first one, Jade

36:56

has a father, but he's

36:59

not a dad, you know, he's not, he's not a

37:01

good dude. And Jade

37:04

doesn't have a mom. I felt

37:06

like she needed a parent figure of some

37:08

sort. And that was too

37:10

much to lay on one person. So I kind of

37:12

thought, well, maybe Hardy and Holmes, the sheriff and the

37:14

history teacher can kind of both be surrogate fathers in

37:17

a sense, you know, and I'm, because

37:19

Jade needed that, you know, she would fight

37:21

it. She would never admit it, but she

37:23

needed that. And, but then of

37:26

course, because it's a horror novel, you

37:28

don't get to keep everybody, which broke my heart,

37:30

you know. But

37:32

as for the role of teachers and, you

37:34

know, teaching in classes and students and all that,

37:37

I think I was just really fortunate. I

37:39

think I stayed in the acknowledgments to Reaper

37:41

possibly, to have some teachers

37:44

who really changed the course of my life, you

37:46

know, and I wouldn't,

37:48

I wouldn't be here right now if people had

37:50

not done things for

37:52

me that they didn't have to do, you know. And

37:55

that's kind of, I mean, teachers, you don't

37:57

teach for the money, you know, because I'm.

38:00

sure don't. No, but

38:03

there's, I don't even know if it's the satisfaction.

38:05

It's just like, I think, I think you, I

38:08

think teachers kind of realize

38:10

they're a part of the community and they can

38:12

help move us

38:15

all forward, you know? And

38:19

to me, that's a very meaningful relationship. And yes, I am a teacher

38:21

myself. I don't know if I'm a good teacher or a bad teacher,

38:23

but I have a lot of fun and, you know. Yeah.

38:28

And I think it's kind of like how we were talking about Jade's,

38:30

like it's just pouring, this knowledge is pouring out

38:32

of her. And I think, you know,

38:35

people that are natural teachers, they do that

38:37

and they want to share what they've learned

38:39

and they want to help the next generation

38:41

move forward. And I also

38:43

want to ask about parents. So

38:46

yeah, when I started

38:48

crying in my heart was a chainsaw

38:50

when the mama bear and this baby

38:52

bear on the dam. I thought that

38:55

was a beautiful image. Then there's another,

38:57

you know, image or element in

38:59

Don't Throw the Reaper with an elk and

39:01

with Jade's mother. And then I don't want

39:03

to spoil anything about the ending of

39:05

this book, but parenting and

39:07

parent figures play a heavy

39:09

part in it. And like, again, I was just

39:12

sobbing at the end of this. I thought it

39:14

was such a beautiful way to end the story.

39:16

And on page 53, which is at the beginning,

39:19

you write, you don't measure moms in height

39:21

though, you measure them in ferocity, which I

39:24

just like, oh, I just wanted

39:26

to tattoo it on my heart. And

39:29

there's also, you also write about parents and the

39:31

only good Indians you write about parents in the

39:33

50s that are lived. And the

39:35

idea of surrogate parents, you know, because I

39:37

think a lot of parent figures we see

39:40

in these stories are not biological parents and

39:42

they kind of come to death in when

39:44

they're needed. Can you tell us a

39:46

little bit about this theme and how the role of

39:48

parents and kind of guidance plays a

39:51

part in the story? Yeah, I think like

39:53

when you think about, you tell yourself, I'm

39:55

going to tell, I'm going to write a horror story. I'm going to

39:58

tell a horror story. I want to be do something scary. The

40:00

first question you have to ask is what's

40:03

most sacred to you? And

40:05

so what can you put in jeopardy? And for

40:07

me, family is most sacred.

40:09

And so I

40:11

had to find ways to both

40:14

put that in jeopardy, but also when

40:16

the seethog goes the other way, to

40:20

make it a – to let it, I don't

40:22

know, move towards some sort of heroism

40:26

via sacrifice sometimes, I guess, you

40:29

know? Because

40:32

I wonder if this all comes from Bruce

40:34

Springsteen and one of

40:36

his live albums, and I forget what song this is

40:38

for. It may be for that one about

40:40

the – he has a song.

40:42

There's a house on the hill, and his father

40:44

would always look at it. And I think he

40:46

does a rambling intro for that song. He talks

40:49

about when he was young,

40:51

he didn't understand why his dad seemed

40:53

so beaten down for life. And

40:55

then he got older, and he realized that his dad

40:59

used to have his own dreams, but then he

41:01

had kids, and he realized those kids were his

41:04

dreams, you know? And I

41:07

think that just lodged in me deep, you know? Yeah.

41:14

So I wanted to ask a little about

41:16

some of the villains of your books, especially

41:18

Stacey Graves and the preacher Ezekiel,

41:20

who are fantastic villains with so

41:22

much interesting lore. Did

41:25

you – when you first sat down to write My Heart

41:27

is a Tainsaw, you've already told us, though, that you weren't

41:29

really picturing a trilogy. But do you

41:31

have any idea that they would become

41:33

such a big part of the overarching

41:35

story? Or were they going to

41:37

be a little bit of lore in the first book?

41:40

They were just a little bit of lore in the

41:42

first book. I had no plans whatsoever, you know? I

41:44

mean, I guess – I

41:47

think my editor made me aware of this more

41:49

than I was aware of it. He said with

41:51

chainsaw, I was kind of inverting

41:55

the Indian burial

41:57

ground thing, you know, and making it a

41:59

Christian burial. I think

42:01

when he said that I was like, I wonder

42:03

if that's something I can use. Because

42:06

I don't really think about things when I'm doing

42:08

them, I just do what feels right. I

42:11

think for

42:14

me thinking is so unhelpful for writing.

42:16

Feeling is what you need for writing.

42:19

Thinking is good for revision, but it's

42:21

no good for getting feelings down the

42:23

page. For that reason, I

42:25

never can plan. I

42:28

never can plan or outline or know what's happening.

42:31

I really agree with Neil Gaiman.

42:33

He says sometimes he'll be writing

42:36

something. And at 20%, 25%, he'll

42:38

drop something in there that he doesn't have

42:40

any idea how this is going to plug

42:42

in or how it's going to develop. But

42:44

he just has an instinct that this might

42:46

matter. And

42:48

that's exactly how I write. I

42:51

do things and it's just instinctual. And I'm like,

42:54

this will probably be something. But I have

42:56

no idea what. And I think if

42:58

I did know what, I would mess it up. I

43:00

would telegraph it. I would signal it too hard. It's

43:03

got to ambush me at the end as well

43:05

as the reader. Oh,

43:08

definitely. Especially with Ezekiel, I feel

43:10

like in Chainsaw, it could have

43:12

just been Jade kind of going

43:14

off about some town mysteries and

43:16

lore and never mentioned again. And that would

43:18

have been fine. And it

43:21

didn't feel like, and that's why I wanted to ask

43:23

because it didn't feel very planned in a good way.

43:25

In a good way. It didn't feel

43:27

like I'm going to put this foreshadowing here now.

43:30

Yeah. That's

43:32

a good way to say it because I feel

43:34

like I'm never foreshadowed. But I do, when

43:37

I'm trying to figure out in the last 20% of a novel, when

43:39

I don't know what's

43:42

going to happen, what I do is I go back and I look at the

43:44

previous 80% and I realize, oh, this, this,

43:46

and this, they can add up to this. And we

43:48

can get there. And

43:51

it doesn't always work out, but the

43:54

more I write, the luckier I get. Yeah.

43:58

There you are, making those connections. Yeah,

44:00

yeah. Yeah, I find

44:02

them I always think

44:04

about Stephen King's on writing talking about like a

44:06

fossil like a story is like Uncovering bones that

44:09

were there, you know And I love during you

44:11

talk about like being surprised by elements of your

44:13

story And I think that's what makes it it

44:16

feels so emotional, you know, and I mean

44:18

I'm engaged with the plot I want to

44:20

know who done it, you know, I gotta

44:22

know what who you know When

44:24

the the part in the gym when he

44:26

just smiles I was like who is that?

44:30

But I'm also connected to the emotions of the

44:32

characters and I think that's Like

44:35

that writing discovery, yeah, yeah Yeah,

44:39

I agree. I think that all this

44:41

trilogy really it's you've really touched on

44:43

so many elements I mean tugs at

44:45

your heartstrings it it it brought up

44:47

traumas for I think so many people

44:49

who read it including me And

44:52

in a good way, it really helped me work

44:54

through that teenage girl. I was it really did

44:56

it's and On top

44:58

of that you created such a

45:01

gruesome world of flashers

45:05

A beautiful way. I mean you

45:07

really did not stray away from it

45:09

being a bloodbath, which I really appreciate

45:11

you know, I really

45:13

appreciate this overall trilogy of

45:16

gore and Family

45:20

That's a good way to say it gore and family I like

45:23

that Um, but you you're right like

45:25

you to me you can't have the good if you

45:27

don't also have the bad, you know And

45:30

yeah, I could just I could just make

45:32

it all kind of like fake scary

45:34

like safe scary and but

45:37

But I don't know that I don't like to I don't

45:40

like to read or watch stuff like

45:42

that really where it's safe You know,

45:44

I'm I think that's a one

45:46

of the most essential components of horror Actually

45:48

is that the reader the audience feels

45:51

like they're in a place where the rules don't

45:53

quite hold, you know Like

45:55

like that. I feel like the horror

45:57

writer's job is we take the reader

45:59

by the hand and we leave them

46:01

through a doorway into like a big darkness

46:03

and we're holding a light, a candle and

46:06

we take them 20 paces in and then

46:09

five more paces slower and then

46:12

we let go of their hand and we blow the candle

46:14

out, you know, and they don't know where the walls are

46:16

and that's when you're doing horror, I think. Yes,

46:19

I love that. And

46:22

I love, you know, slasher, I'm a

46:24

slasher fanatic and I love the formula

46:26

and I love kind of dissecting it

46:29

but I always think the slasher subverts

46:31

the formula in some way because you're

46:33

right. If it's just like by the

46:35

books and you're just going down the checklist, there are

46:37

no stakes, you know? I

46:41

want to ask in your acknowledgement, you

46:43

mentioned the books in the freezer podcast

46:45

and the final girl playlist and I

46:47

know Sepsi also, she's a friend of

46:50

mine and I added, Alanis Morris

46:52

said she wanted to know to that. Nice,

46:55

nice. Yeah, which again tells probably listeners

46:57

how old I am but can you

46:59

tell us some of your final girl

47:02

songs? What do you think Jade's favorite

47:04

final girl song would be and how did that

47:06

kind of sustain you as you were writing this

47:08

book? No, that's a, well, the way

47:10

it sustained me is for each of

47:12

these books, I make a playlist and

47:15

I only listen to that playlist

47:17

while I am writing this book and

47:19

it kind of conditions me

47:21

such that every time I hear the

47:23

opening beats of the first song

47:26

on the playlist that I'm

47:28

there, you know? Let me,

47:30

I'm on Spotify right now looking at my

47:32

playlist and of course having the usual difficulty,

47:37

you know? You

47:39

can probably hear me typing here. Here

47:42

it is, here it is, yeah. You

47:45

know the song on this, I use the

47:47

same playlist for Chainsaw and Reaper but didn't

47:50

When I started writing Angel,

47:52

I realized that playlist was used up, that I

47:54

had to come up with some new stuff and

47:56

so yeah, I kind of stole a lot of

47:58

stuff. of

48:00

that Books in the Freezer, Stephanie's playlist that

48:02

she lets everyone, all the gifts to add

48:04

to, and then added

48:07

stuff. I'm looking for the, oh, here it

48:09

is. The song on this playlist

48:12

that I associate most with Jade that

48:14

I think she would like the most

48:17

is Hailstorm. I like it heavy. H-A-L-E

48:19

storm. I like it heavy. And just

48:21

the attitude in that feels very Jade

48:23

Daniels to me. Mm-hmm.

48:28

I love her. That is amazing. I

48:30

love that. I love, and I know what you mean when you said by

48:33

the time after Reaper it was used up,

48:35

like, because I do playlists when I write

48:37

too, and there is something that's inherently like,

48:39

it, I don't even know how to say

48:41

it out loud other than, yeah, it feels

48:43

used up. You need to start a new.

48:47

But then I was so surprised that for

48:49

the last like little, I don't know, I think

48:51

I see it in the last like 15%

48:53

or 10% or something of Angel, the

48:56

playlist I had been using felt empty.

48:58

And so I had to go back to the

49:00

original Chainsaw and Reaper playlist, and that was like

49:02

a nostalgic return. And that, I think that let

49:05

me end it like I needed to end it,

49:07

you know? Uh-huh. Yeah, yeah,

49:09

definitely. I felt that

49:11

like making mixes. I

49:13

think about it as mixed CDs, because again, you

49:16

know, I have a child with my age. But

49:18

like, like the music that you listen to a

49:20

year in your life and you put it on

49:22

and you're just immediately sucked back into that time,

49:24

you know? Yeah, no, for sure. For me, it has

49:26

to be music that I know

49:29

really well. Because if not, I'll listen

49:31

to it. I need to be music that just like

49:33

prompts the feeling, you know? Yeah,

49:35

yeah. But you can still hear the words

49:38

coming in your head, you know? You

49:40

can see it playing out as a scene in

49:42

your head. Yeah. Yeah. Definitely.

49:45

I had one question for you about

49:47

writing, actually. So, Maestro, I have a

49:49

lot of fairly new writing, people who

49:51

are writing horror fiction. Is there

49:53

any advice you have for new horror authors? Like,

49:55

are there any tropes that you wish people would

49:57

stay away from or that there aren't Let

50:01

me think. You know,

50:03

I think my, I don't know,

50:05

I would say don't stay away from anything. If it

50:07

feels real to you, then it's real. But I

50:10

would say that what we

50:12

need out of all writers, and this

50:14

probably especially goes for new writers, is

50:17

what they're afraid of, you know? Like,

50:19

nope, don't write about spiders because, you know,

50:21

most of the world's afraid of spiders. Right

50:24

about, you're scared

50:26

that if

50:29

you fall asleep, an old woman

50:31

is going to come lean over

50:33

your bed and breathe your breath.

50:35

You know, that kind of stuff.

50:37

We need people's particular fears. And

50:42

that is what scares us the most, I think.

50:44

I mean, yeah, you let a jar of spiders

50:46

go on somebody's lap, they're probably going to jump

50:48

and scream, you know? But it's going to be

50:50

a lot more meaningful if this

50:53

is a fear this person has been living with for

50:55

a long time. You know, like, I

50:57

guess if I can use me as an example for,

50:59

my heart is a chainsaw for this

51:01

whole trilogy, the Indian-like trilogy. When

51:04

I was in junior high, first discovering

51:06

slashers, we would watch them out

51:08

in my friend's garage, which was out in the trees.

51:11

And his dad would come

51:13

scare us at a certain point, and we'd run out the

51:15

side door and think he was chasing us. And we would

51:17

only be safe if we jumped in the creek and hid

51:19

under the water, you know? And

51:23

specifically what I built chainsaw out of, I

51:25

think. That's specifically what, yes, exactly.

51:27

That's so crazy. I had

51:29

no idea that would have been based on a real, the

51:32

image of Stacey Graves clawing at the top

51:34

of the water. And that

51:36

being inspired by something real is amazing.

51:39

That's so fun to know. And

51:41

it's so funny because I think when people, well, it's

51:44

not funny, it's terrifying. When people

51:46

write about their specific fears, like, it unlocks

51:48

the fear you didn't realize you had. It

51:50

does, yeah. It allows people to kind

51:52

of, like, let it out. It totally

51:54

does. Yeah, like, we didn't know showers were

51:56

terrifying until psycho, you know? Exactly.

51:58

Exactly. Yeah, we'll

52:01

never be the same. No, we

52:03

didn't know we didn't know log trucks were scary

52:05

until fall destination 2 But

52:07

I mean seriously can can you drive behind

52:10

a log? I'm

52:17

saying like I think semis like they're always mad

52:19

about people tailgating them You know I

52:22

think they should yeah, they should start painting or putting

52:24

decals in their back door of the butt end your

52:26

logs. You know I

52:32

Thought a truck one time and it had like

52:35

it was some kind of optical illusion like

52:38

the doors were open. Yeah, and I I've

52:41

seen those Stop

52:43

looking at it either. It's like I've

52:45

got to get away from this truck.

52:47

I'm gonna have final destination. Yeah. Yeah

52:51

Well, I wanted to ask what's next for

52:53

you and these you'll ever

52:56

Attend anything that's ambitious again a big

52:59

trilogy like this. Yeah, I don't know if I will I'm

53:01

not I've always wanted

53:03

to do like a Lord of the Rings kind of thing,

53:05

but I'm

53:07

probably in horror. So maybe I have with

53:09

Indian Lake. Maybe it's done now. Yeah, I

53:12

don't know I'm if I

53:14

do another trilogy it won't be for

53:16

a while Anyways, because I got a lot of standalone

53:18

stuff to do. Um, you know, actually I'm doing a

53:20

comic book that comes in a trilogy True Believers, I

53:22

just wrote the third installment of that Slasher

53:26

trilogy but um, um

53:28

next for me. I am NOT

53:31

sure what my publication schedule is I don't really

53:33

keep up with that as well as I should

53:35

but um, I believe I have

53:37

two books out next year Two books out

53:39

the year after that and I

53:41

know that um somewhere in that mix is

53:44

the buffalo hunter hunter my vampire novel that

53:47

Actually before I before I got on with y'all

53:49

I was in the last little movement of that

53:51

so I can send it to my agent So

53:53

she can then give me no food and send

53:55

it to the editor and they can come out

53:57

and that's exciting Yeah, and a time to

54:00

travel science fiction thing, which is the most

54:02

brutal thing I've ever written by far. It's

54:04

like where it's like, I love time travel.

54:06

Yeah. Least of my scars has always

54:08

been my most brutal thing I've done. But this

54:10

one actually goes a step beyond least of my

54:12

scars and really to uncomfortable spaces. Like everybody may

54:14

hate me after this one. Probably,

54:17

probably, probably justly, you know, but it's science

54:19

fiction. It's not hard. If you're doing

54:21

something right, if you're horrifying, I'm

54:23

very excited now. Holy shit. You

54:26

guys want to, if you don't go into dangerous spaces,

54:28

if there's no risk, then what are you doing? You

54:30

know, it's just no good. Exactly. If you play it

54:32

safe, play it safe. You're not going to hit on

54:35

anything good, I think, you know. Exactly.

54:37

And I think, you know, to kind of maybe bookend

54:39

it to you, I think, you know, I always hear

54:42

Randy Meeks saying, you know, that means anybody can die.

54:44

Like nobody is safe in this book. And I think

54:46

that's one of the things that makes it so beautiful

54:49

and to see the way that it wraps

54:51

up knowing that, you know, that's because that's

54:53

life. We're not safe. Yeah. We're

54:55

safe as we can be. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah.

54:58

Everything ends at some point. Yeah. And we kind

55:00

of have to kind of have to spin up fantasies

55:03

that make us feel safe. But at

55:05

some level, we know those are fantasies

55:07

too. You know, like, like

55:09

I tell myself, our ecosphere is

55:11

not going to collapse in my lifetime, but that's just

55:13

a thing I tell myself. I don't have any idea.

55:16

You know, like the more afraid

55:18

I am, the stronger I get every day that

55:21

I have to deal with that fear and that's

55:23

what we see Jay go through every book, you

55:25

know, she puts herself back together, she gets a

55:27

little bit stronger and now we see her strong

55:29

for the next generation. Yeah. No, definitely.

55:32

You know, one of my favorite things about Jade

55:34

is how she doesn't hide her scars either, you

55:36

know, she confronts the world. She confronts the world

55:38

with him. She makes the world deal with her

55:40

as herself. She doesn't do things to, to try

55:43

to appease people, you know, and

55:45

I think that's probably the thing I respect about

55:47

her the most, you know? Yeah.

55:50

Same. I love it. She's just so, so

55:52

unusual and so inspirational. She

55:55

really is. She's

55:57

fantastic. I'm going to miss her. I

55:59

really. I know. Thank you. I

56:02

know. Thank you. No, I'm

56:04

going to miss you too. I've been thinking

56:06

about getting a tattoo right here on my wrist to kind

56:08

of commemorate, you know? Oh, I

56:10

think that'd be great. Yeah. She

56:13

is a part of you, so, you know. Well,

56:16

is there anything else you'd like to say about

56:19

the book or the trilogy before we let you

56:21

go? We've had, we've kept you for so long now.

56:23

No, it's been great talking with you. Anything

56:26

else about it? Let me think.

56:29

I really like when you see

56:31

these three on a shelf. I like how it

56:33

goes from white to red to black. That feels

56:35

like a natural progression, you know? I have

56:37

mine lined up to my shelf just like

56:39

that. I love it. Yeah. It's

56:42

so cool. And we didn't plan it at all.

56:44

But it's so cool that it works out that way, you

56:46

know? Amazing.

56:49

Well, Steven, thank you so much for being here with

56:52

us today. We will let you go. And

56:54

everyone, go. Please

56:56

go buy this trilogy. If you haven't started it yet,

56:58

start it now and you're going to binge all three

57:00

of them, I assure you. Yes. Thank

57:04

you so much for chatting with us today. It's

57:06

been wonderful. Thank you all for hanging out with Jade. Well,

57:08

thank you for giving us Jade. Thank you for

57:10

giving us Jade. Well,

57:15

that was fun. And that

57:17

was incredible. That was amazing. Oh

57:19

my gosh. It is so cool.

57:21

Like when you meet people

57:23

that you love, you know, you're always a

57:25

little nervous. Like, yes. I was

57:27

very nervous going in. I was too,

57:30

because I just love his book so much.

57:32

But man, he was so nice. And he's

57:35

just a horror fan like us too. It's

57:37

so fun to just nerd out. It felt

57:39

like being at a convention and nerding out

57:41

with a fellow horror fan, honestly. It was

57:44

just what a conversation. I feel like we

57:46

got some really fun behind the scenes that

57:48

the two of us are such huge fans of

57:50

this trilogy that I feel like both of us

57:53

were. I mean, I know I was fangirling about

57:55

a few of those conversations, like hearing about the

57:57

creek and the visuals being under the water and

57:59

how that That was an actual thing that he would

58:01

do with a friend. Oh man. Oh

58:03

my gosh. That was so

58:05

cool. I know. It's like,

58:07

I love seeing the pieces come together

58:10

and hearing how he made it happen

58:12

and hearing about the interludes and how

58:14

those were like last, like final additions

58:16

to the story. I feel like like

58:18

10 pulls along the way, you know?

58:20

I do. I would have never

58:22

guessed those were last minute additions because like you

58:25

said, 10 pulls, they feel like they were there

58:27

the entire time. I would have almost guessed that

58:29

was one of the first things he thought to

58:31

do before anything. I mean, five weeks out from

58:33

publishing and to add those, and then they

58:35

become such a huge part of

58:37

all three books. I mean, the

58:40

story and the help, you know? Yeah, exactly.

58:42

And I think we can really like see

58:44

the evolution of Jade through these. And it's

58:46

so nice to like see her from the

58:48

outside, but that really get to know her

58:50

on the inside too, you know? And

58:53

you know, I told him, I cried. I mentioned

58:55

that a couple of times. Did you cry when

58:57

you were reading this too? Oh, God, of course

58:59

I did. I mean, I cried from book one.

59:01

I mean, the big massacre in book one, like

59:04

you said, you've got to kill people. You have

59:06

to do it. And from the

59:08

jump, I mean, I know we're talking about book

59:10

three, but really this, I'd like to talk about

59:12

this trilogy as a whole, because I'm sure so

59:14

many people listening right now haven't started the trilogy.

59:17

And from book one, no spoilers,

59:20

but you will, it's shocking how

59:22

willing, how far he's willing to

59:24

go with an entire town of

59:26

people. Oh,

59:28

I know. It's like really no one is

59:31

safe. And I've got Stephen King in my

59:33

head saying like, kill your darlings, even if

59:35

you're like, your darlings, you know, because

59:37

that's what makes it feel real. You know,

59:39

that's what gives us the stakes for it. So

59:42

exactly, exactly. Well,

59:45

it's just, I can't praise this book

59:47

enough. I really loved it. The entire

59:49

trilogy. So listeners, if you have not

59:51

listened or, and you know what, the

59:54

audio books are fantastic too. And

59:56

like, as we mentioned at the beginning, we just got news

59:58

that there are going to be of really

1:00:00

well-known hard names. And that Stephen

1:00:03

Graham Jones is going to be

1:00:05

voicing, at least his acknowledgement may

1:00:07

be a little bit more too.

1:00:10

So, you know, check out the book

1:00:12

when you can and check out the audiobooks

1:00:14

because audiobooks are great. I will see

1:00:16

your phrase. They're really, I underutilize

1:00:18

them. You and I were talking about

1:00:20

this as well off camera. I underutilize

1:00:22

audiobooks. They're such a great way to

1:00:25

consume media, especially again, with these voice

1:00:27

actors that we know are coming up

1:00:29

in this third one. You cannot get

1:00:31

this. I mean, and

1:00:33

this third book, I, it's so hard to

1:00:35

wrap up a trilogy. It's so hard to

1:00:38

wrap up anything. I mean, we all

1:00:40

know how disappointing the ends of shows can,

1:00:42

the last episodes of our favorite series can

1:00:44

be, but this was not that

1:00:46

it was so satisfying. It

1:00:49

was a beautiful wrap up. Jen

1:00:51

cried. I cried. We

1:00:53

cried, but it was also

1:00:55

satisfied. My bloodlust like no

1:00:58

other. It was perfect. Which

1:01:01

is exactly, that's what you want from a

1:01:03

slasher. That's what you want from a trilogy.

1:01:05

And that's what you want from horror. You

1:01:07

know, it's just giving us everything, you know,

1:01:09

it gives you slashers. It gives you, we

1:01:11

talked about supernatural. I mean, it has a

1:01:13

little bit of everything. It really does. You've

1:01:15

got the fear and the feel, you know,

1:01:18

exactly. Thanks

1:01:23

again for joining Jen and I

1:01:25

for that fantastic interview. Remember, you

1:01:28

can pick up your copy of the

1:01:30

angel of Indian Lake today, wherever

1:01:32

books are sold.