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is losers. This is the Lady Killers

0:57

of Feminine Rage Podcast. I'm Jen. I'm

1:00

Sami. I'm Rocco. And

1:03

I'm Mae. Our podcast is a

1:05

tribute to the female identifying killers in

1:08

horror and more. Each

1:10

episode will feature us, your Supreme

1:12

Court of Female Murderers, discussing our

1:14

favorite lady killers from your Julius

1:16

and Jennifer's to your Carries and

1:18

Christine's. We'll tell her story,

1:21

decide if it's good for her horror,

1:23

and answer the most important question of

1:25

all, would we die for her? Join

1:28

us on Thursdays as we pull on our

1:30

sweaters, snatch our ice picks, sharpen our scissors,

1:32

and honor the lady killers who live on

1:34

the silver screen. No

1:36

boys were harmed in the making of this podcast. Yet.

1:42

Good morning, afternoon,

1:44

or evening. And

1:54

welcome to the bloody disgusting

1:56

network. The passage

1:58

of time will now bring you to. something

2:01

strange, unique and

2:03

idiosyncratic. Have

2:06

a good time. Greetings,

2:34

constant listeners and welcome to The Losers

2:37

Club, a Stephen King podcast. I am

2:39

your host, Jen To, the Rage Adams,

2:41

and I do not remember the last

2:43

time I was this excited to talk

2:45

about a book. To be

2:47

honest, I'm also a little bit nervous

2:50

because this is a big one, a

2:52

heavy hitter, if you will. Spring is

2:54

here, the flowers are blooming, the school

2:56

year is winding down, we've had some

2:58

tornado adjacent weather where I live, so

3:00

you know that it is prom time.

3:03

But instead of a lovely evening capped off

3:06

with 45 seconds of high

3:08

school sex, we are going to the

3:10

prom night from hell. Yes, even worse

3:12

than the Jamie Lee Curtis disco movie.

3:14

Yes, even worse than when Rachel Lee Cook

3:17

took off her glasses and suddenly became hot,

3:19

we're going all the way back to 1974 slash 1979 to talk

3:22

about Stephen

3:25

King's debut novel, Carrie, in

3:27

dumping blood on my head

3:29

in celebration. And

3:32

why are we talking about Carrie, you might

3:34

ask? Don't we already have an episode covering

3:36

it? Yes, we do. It's the first episode.

3:39

Many of us listened to it today. But yeah,

3:43

we are talking about Carrie, first of all, because we

3:45

want to. And second, because the

3:47

movie is celebrating its 50th anniversary on

3:49

April 5, which in

3:51

the pod time continuum, I think is today if

3:53

you're listening on the day of release. And

3:56

third, because this is our

3:58

first Twitter episode. Yay! It's

4:00

been a long time coming. I'm

4:03

very excited that we're here. It's

4:05

a full book episode with a slight

4:07

deviation or two, but our panel is

4:09

made up of losers who were not

4:12

on the original episode and who have

4:14

some thoughts on Carrie. And boy do

4:16

I have some thoughts. But

4:18

speaking of losers, picking

4:21

me up in a fancy prom

4:23

limo, Rachel, say hello and tell

4:25

us what audition did you read

4:28

and when was your first trip

4:30

to Carrie's prom? Yes, speaking of

4:32

losers, indeed. Hi, this is Rachel

4:34

the Shadow Exploded Reeves. So

4:37

excited here to talk about Carrie.

4:39

Carrie, oh my gosh. I

4:42

read my audition. I had to look it up because

4:44

I wasn't actually sure, but it's one

4:46

of the, it has like the original cover, but it's

4:48

one of the re-releases, I think, from the early 90s.

4:53

And this is not my

4:55

first trip at the prom

4:57

with Carrie. It was one of the earliest books,

4:59

King Books I read because

5:01

I read The Talisman first for

5:04

some reason. And I thought that

5:06

was great. I

5:08

know. Long read. It was

5:10

weird. Weird entry point,

5:12

which I have now discovered talking to

5:14

people. But after

5:17

that, then I went in and I was

5:19

like, well, I gotta read all the hits, right?

5:21

Pet Sematary, Misery, Carrie, The Shining were kind of, I

5:23

don't remember which exactly was first, but it was all in

5:25

a very short span of time. And

5:27

I mean, can't

5:30

really do better than that.

5:32

So yes, it was those four that

5:34

really hooked me. And then I

5:37

think this is my fourth time that I've

5:39

read Carrie. So did the audiobook,

5:42

book combo this time to

5:44

do a little bit of both because I

5:46

like listening to Sissy Space Secretary. I appreciate

5:48

that, you know, layered

5:50

meaning there. It was great.

5:52

Yeah, she's like, she does a great job

5:55

in the audio. I've listened to that so many

5:57

times. I've said many times on the show before,

5:59

like before I realized. podcast exists that I just

6:01

listened to Stephen King audiobooks over and over again

6:03

and that was one of the ones that I

6:05

Had on repeat because it's short. It's

6:08

sweet like she just really Has

6:10

a great delivery with it and you're right. It's

6:12

got that meta quality that I really like Well

6:16

pulling a corsage out of the fridge

6:18

in Chicago Mel say

6:20

hello. Tell us what edition you read

6:22

and when did you first read Carrie?

6:25

Hi, this is Mel dirty

6:27

pillows castle I'm

6:29

not sure when I first read Carrie. It was

6:31

also one of my first even King reads in

6:34

much the same fashion I think I read I

6:37

Want to say pet cemetery first or perhaps the

6:40

shining first and then had to backtrack and say

6:42

what's the deal with this guy? Let's start from

6:44

the beginning I

6:46

am so sad because I've taught Carrie

6:48

I think three times to undergrads and

6:50

I had a copy that was all

6:52

marked up and annotated from

6:54

multiple read-throughs trying to make notes

6:56

for the the kiddies to latch

6:58

on to and I Somehow

7:01

lost it or donated it in the move

7:04

that I'd had that I did recently And so I

7:06

had to get a copy from the library and it

7:08

is the first anchor books mass market edition

7:10

from September 2011 And it

7:13

has the horrible Photoshopy

7:16

cover of a corsage with a skull on

7:18

it It's purple and in the background if

7:20

you look really close it just says Carrie

7:23

Carrie Carrie Writer

7:26

fine, it's it's real bad But

7:30

functional. Yeah, the job done

7:32

exactly. I think that's what the cover of

7:34

the audiobook file have I've been looking at

7:36

that a lot recently too. I'm so excited

7:38

to hear about you teaching this book What

7:40

class was it a part of and what

7:42

was your reaction with your students? It's

7:45

so funny reading it again, I hadn't read it

7:48

since I taught it and I thought sort of

7:50

You know, I've done this book so many

7:53

times. There's there's nothing new to click really glean from it,

7:55

which of course wasn't the case Reading

7:58

it now. I was like, gosh should I

8:00

have taught this to those

8:03

Iowa undergrads? This is pretty

8:05

gnarly. I think it really

8:07

did throw them for a loop and in a good

8:09

way, hopefully. It was called

8:12

Gen Edlet, like general education literature, and

8:14

you got to make your own syllabus,

8:16

and mine was the subjects of love

8:18

and monstrosity. So I did this Dracula,

8:20

Haunting of Hill House, and

8:22

then there was usually a wildcard novel

8:24

or a bunch of stories in there.

8:27

So they all ended up talking

8:29

really well to one another, these books. And

8:33

it was a blast to teach to the

8:35

college kids. I would love

8:37

to take that class. That sounds awesome. It

8:40

was a cool class. And

8:43

wearing her fanciest Lydia Deet

8:45

stress, Ashley, say hello. Tell

8:47

us what edition did you read, and when

8:49

did you first meet Carrie? Hello,

8:52

this is Ashley. They're

8:54

all going to laugh at you, Cassidy. The

8:59

first time I read Carrie was in seventh grade,

9:02

and it couldn't have come at a better time.

9:04

That was the year I started my period while

9:08

I was attending Lutheran

9:10

school. Oh. So

9:13

luckily my mom was a nurse who

9:15

loved PBR and not

9:17

Margaret White. But

9:20

I did, I personally knew Carrie's. Like

9:23

I knew girls that were

9:25

my age or a little younger who

9:27

weren't taught about health

9:31

and sex ed. And

9:33

we had to attend these

9:35

sessions. We weren't taught sexual

9:37

education in our classes, like

9:39

in our main class. We

9:41

had to go to the gym for these

9:44

special sessions. And they were so pointless because

9:46

they always brought in a stranger who we

9:48

didn't know, so we didn't feel comfortable asking

9:50

questions. And I definitely went

9:52

to high school, not as

9:56

advanced as the girls that were my

9:59

age. my age, not that

10:01

I was like, they're flusies, but just like,

10:03

I didn't know anything. And Carrie

10:07

I feel like was as important to me as

10:09

like, Are you there God? It's me, Margaret, or

10:11

that one book that's like the care and keeping

10:13

of you where they teach you about like pubic

10:15

hair and stuff like Carrie was as important as

10:17

those books to me. So just in

10:20

regards to like accepting that

10:22

what is happening happening to me

10:25

is totally normal and also fuck

10:27

anyone who tries to suggest otherwise.

10:31

But this time

10:33

around, I had the privilege of reading the

10:35

exact same copy I read in seventh grade

10:37

because I got it from my parents house.

10:40

And this is the like original

10:42

paperback, Penguin books paperback

10:44

from 1975. Oh,

10:48

yay, I think I may have had

10:50

that copy at one point. Totally. I really

10:52

like this cover with like the flame. I

10:54

think it maybe would work better for Firestarter.

10:57

But yeah, that's probably why I like it.

10:59

Because I'm like, Oh, it looks it's Firestarter.

11:01

Yeah, which this

11:03

is I kind of a prequel to

11:05

Firestarter. It really is. Yeah,

11:08

there's a lot of parallel and I cannot

11:10

wait to talk about that. Because I mean,

11:12

everybody who who's met me from one five

11:14

minutes knows that I'm obsessed with Firestarter. Specifically

11:17

Charlie. And you know, that I'm like jealous

11:19

when I hear you say that you read

11:21

this in middle school, because I did not

11:23

it took me a long time to like,

11:26

to read this for the first time. I think I

11:28

remember seeing the movie when I was in middle school,

11:31

and just kind of engaging with it.

11:33

It's just like a scary movie, like, oh, yeah, this

11:35

is good, you know, and then her older brother, my

11:37

friend's older brother scared us at the end. And so

11:40

you know, but it was more like, is this scary

11:42

or not was what I was thinking about. And I

11:44

think like, compared

11:46

to who I am now, and what I'm interested

11:48

in now, like when I was younger, I was

11:51

not, I really stayed

11:53

away from really female heavy stories, you know,

11:55

and I think part of it is because

11:57

like, the house I grew up, in

12:00

like I was hearing a certain

12:02

someone rail about a certain first

12:05

lady a lot so I was like if

12:07

I talk about too much lady stuff like

12:10

one I'm gonna look weak and two like that's not

12:12

that's just not real stuff you know and so I

12:14

thought that for a long time and I was like

12:16

oh Carrie I don't need that you know I've seen

12:19

the movie I know what it is and

12:21

then I think it was when I was in college that

12:23

I first read it and I was like oh this is

12:25

good and then I just started listening

12:28

to the audiobook over and over again

12:30

because it's really it's just such an

12:33

easy listen you know and I think

12:35

like these characters just kind of seeped

12:37

into my brain and they have become

12:39

like super like important to me like

12:42

I'm really excited to talk about all

12:45

five of the strong female characters in this

12:47

book and you know I just love female

12:49

characters in general especially when I feel like

12:51

they're nuanced and they have different levels

12:54

of like villainy to them I asked

12:57

for those of you that have listened to the audiobook

12:59

how do they do the stream of

13:01

consciousness parenthetical that like have

13:03

no grammar and are just in

13:05

the middle of you know sentences okay

13:08

here I can recreate it because I've listened to so

13:10

many times like it plays in my head so she

13:13

when she's talking about her first time with Tommy she just

13:15

kind of goes for it and she just says it kind

13:17

of in a different voice you know she was like he

13:20

was a virgin when we first made love I

13:22

would have believed a lie but he told me

13:24

and so she'll just kind of like slip it

13:26

in there you know yeah it's a little quieter

13:28

and like yeah yeah yeah but I

13:30

mean like I don't recognize

13:32

I would I'd probably be surprised if I saw

13:34

the text change you know and that's one of

13:37

the things that you do kind of it's

13:40

a blessing or a curse when you listen to the

13:42

audiobook because there are some books like I

13:45

remember I was talking about Dolores Claiborne and

13:47

it was just like all caps

13:49

or like regulators or Rose matter

13:51

where like those text things are

13:53

really distracting but then other times

13:56

you kind of you know I don't know

13:58

would y'all agree do you think she pulls off the stream of

14:00

consciousness stuff. I think she does.

14:02

And also like the change between like the

14:04

other materials like the articles or the

14:07

interviews, she does change her tone and her

14:09

inflection to kind of mirror whatever the

14:12

item is that she is quoting

14:14

from. So it doesn't feel jarring,

14:16

but it also clues the end to like, okay,

14:18

we're out of the story for a second. We're

14:20

in present time or

14:22

this is an interview or this

14:24

is from Sue Snell's book,

14:26

that kind of stuff. I think she's thinking

14:29

about it. I haven't thought about it, but she does a good job,

14:31

I think, in marking those changes with

14:33

her book. That's cool. I'm glad they didn't

14:36

add like a like a chintzy echo or

14:38

something. Oh yeah, no. And she thought I

14:40

got her a little drawl, you know, she got it

14:42

just a hint of a Southern accent, which I appreciate.

14:44

But like from the shadow exploded, like she'll just proclaim

14:47

it, you know, like a journalist. She

14:49

sounds like a news reporter almost. She does.

14:51

Yeah, like a good old news

14:54

reporter. But I do have to say, I did

14:58

not read this copy because I

15:00

listened but I referenced a special

15:02

copy that I got from one

15:04

Rachel Reeves. When we

15:06

were in Chicago, she gave me

15:08

a gift and it is the

15:10

movie tie in, Harry, way

15:13

back from like, I believe it's 76 when the

15:16

movie premiered, but it's and it's from

15:19

norm day with the original. Oh,

15:21

no, it's got all the like

15:24

the little pictures in the middle. So

15:27

cool. We need to share.

15:29

I forgot I'm wearing my carry shirt.

15:32

Oh, yeah. What does it say? They're gonna laugh at you.

15:34

Yeah, it says they're all gonna laugh at you. And

15:36

it is a tiny pocket. Oh,

15:38

so you can put a sanitary product

15:40

in there. Exactly. I put my tampons

15:43

in here. Well,

15:46

all right, let's talk about

15:49

tiny pockets and what we put

15:52

in that's sort of that

15:54

quite works in our first category

15:56

that we are hijacking instead of

15:58

the dairy public library. we

16:00

are going to talk about the legacy of

16:02

Carrie. So

16:30

we're venturing into the basement of

16:32

the library and pulling out Ray

16:34

of the Coos' crystal ball that

16:36

looks, I think, like a grapefruit.

16:38

We're peering into the future. So

16:40

this is one of the

16:42

deviations for our Twitter episodes because we didn't,

16:46

in the first episode, they didn't go too

16:48

hard on the history, but in some of

16:50

the future episodes they will. So instead of

16:52

looking backwards, we're going to look forwards. And

16:54

I want to look at what this book

16:56

has done for the horror genre, for horror

16:58

literature, and for Stephen King in

17:00

particular. So the book

17:02

was first published in hardcover in 1974. It

17:06

wasn't a huge success. I

17:09

have some of those numbers for us a little

17:11

bit later, what critics were impressed. Turns

17:13

out this Stephen King fellow can actually

17:15

rate. I was shocked by

17:18

some of the writing and reviews and I

17:20

was like, why am I spending so much

17:22

time editing my reviews when some of these

17:24

people are just popping out weird

17:27

stuff. So from the New York

17:31

Times, King does more

17:34

than tell a story. He is a school

17:36

teacher himself and he gets into Carrie's mind

17:38

as well as into the minds of her

17:40

classmates. He also knows a thing or two

17:42

about symbolism, blood symbolism especially.

17:44

This is that this is the

17:46

first novel is amazing. King writes

17:49

with a kind of surety normally

17:51

associated only with veteran writers. This

17:53

mixture of science, fiction, the occult,

17:56

secondary school, sociology, kids, good and

17:58

bad, and genetics. turns out

18:00

to be an extraordinary mixture. And

18:03

then I found one from Kirkus Reviews.

18:05

King handles his first novel with considerable

18:07

accomplishment and very little hokum, which hadn't

18:09

heard that word in a while, that

18:11

was fun. And then

18:14

I had, this is one of those, getting

18:16

into the more weird reviews. Here's a

18:19

case where a novel could have been

18:21

a disaster due to the subject matter.

18:23

A girl who can call his walls

18:25

to crumble, but Stephen King is no

18:27

ordinary novelist. He brings Carrie to life.

18:29

She becomes a real person in a

18:31

real main town. The reader cares about

18:33

her and turns the pages in dread,

18:35

I'm sorry, and turns the pages in

18:37

dread as the book rushes towards its

18:39

inevitable and tragic ending. And

18:42

then Carrie, this one, had

18:44

the most hilarious title, Carrie

18:46

Dangerous Girl to Ryle by

18:49

Tom E. Huff, which I feel like

18:51

is a like Simpson's level pseudonym, Tom

18:54

E. Huff. Like that doesn't sound like

18:56

a real name. That's not real. No.

18:59

Don't read it late at night if you're

19:01

alone in the house. The last 50 pages

19:03

are enough to make John Wayne sleep with

19:05

a nightlight. Boy, and there's

19:07

nobody more manly than John Wayne. No

19:10

one more brave. It

19:12

was big like Chuck Norris sleeps with a pillow under

19:14

his gun, five, you know?

19:16

Yeah. Rachel,

19:18

would you mind reading from Paperbacks

19:20

with Maggie McPhee from The Sydney

19:23

Morning Herald? Sure. Her

19:25

mind exploded and destroyed a town.

19:27

That's Carrie they're talking about. She's

19:29

16, and as if that weren't

19:31

enough to put you off her, she's

19:33

the possessor of a rare and terrifying

19:36

ability. Telekinesis. Carrie is

19:38

able without really knowing how to make things

19:40

happen just by thinking them up. But

19:43

take heart, all you parents of 16-year-old

19:45

girls. This isn't a knack they can

19:47

pick up at. What

19:50

is it, sorry. I think it's the

19:52

tech. Get kicked by a kangaroo when he was writing

19:54

that sentence. Even King

19:56

Carrie is a far-fetched, scary,

19:59

rather interesting. novel and it

20:01

sells for a dollar fifty-five. That

20:03

is the last chapter. It asks

20:05

the spine-shilling question. What if there

20:07

are others like Carrie? And

20:09

what if somebody annoys them? Annoyed.

20:12

You know what? That's when I thought

20:14

about this novel. Everyone just needs to

20:16

stop annoying Carrie. I know. They're so

20:19

annoying her. Well you know what I

20:21

thought is she's a sixteen year old

20:23

girl. Ugh. Ugh.

20:25

Gross. As if that weren't enough to put

20:27

you off her. Like the only thing you

20:29

told about her is to not interest me.

20:32

A sixteen year old girl? Gross. Gross. Pass.

20:36

Ashley, would you mind reading novel of

20:38

the occult? Yes. Reviewed

20:42

by Mary Shetle. Hmm. That

20:44

sounds okay. Sure. This

20:46

drama of the occult goes far

20:48

beyond the usual limitations of the

20:50

genre to become a truly perceptive

20:52

study of thoughtless human cruelty and

20:54

resultant suffering. I would say that

20:57

is more apt than

20:59

annoying. Yes. Sure. The

21:02

real horror of the story is not

21:04

in the unleashing of a power, which

21:06

destroys an entire town, but in the

21:09

all too human events which lead an

21:11

adolescent girl to the point of wishing

21:13

for its destruction. Sue Snell

21:16

survives. Spoiler

21:18

alert. But the price of survival

21:20

is knowledge. Can this be the

21:22

end of our heroine Miss Sweet

21:25

Little Sixteen? No worries about

21:27

the Country Club and Clean Corners now.

21:30

Sharing the awful totality of

21:32

perfect knowledge with Carrie, she

21:34

has a vision of life's

21:36

loneliness, cruelty, and suffering, and

21:38

the meaninglessness of death. I

21:42

really liked that take at the end. I thought it was

21:44

totally something I want to talk about when we get to

21:47

word processors, some of our other categories

21:49

too. And then Mel, would

21:51

you mind reading our last one? Sure.

21:54

Supernatural repulsive tale. Hooks,

21:57

critic. By Joy Antos.

21:59

Carrie. Oh, I like that title

22:01

too. A

22:03

lightweight novel of repulsive people performing

22:06

disgusting acts becomes an oddly gripping

22:08

moral tale of sweet revenge in

22:10

Carrie. Although the flashback style

22:12

in which the story unfolds allows one

22:15

to know the outcome early, I could

22:17

not stop reading this book. The characters

22:19

of this strange story of supernatural powers

22:21

include a religious fanatic passing all understanding,

22:24

a lumpy adolescent tormented by her

22:26

peers, a vicious rich bitch, and

22:29

a greasy hood. Stereotypes all,

22:31

but their interactions escalate an

22:33

act of teenage cruelty into the fiery

22:36

destruction of half a town with the

22:38

death of hundreds. The power of the

22:40

writer is such that the reader becomes

22:42

persuaded that such extremes are a logical

22:44

progression of the action. They all had

22:46

it coming. Which

22:48

we shall discern. I love joy. I

22:50

know. Shout out to joy. Shout out

22:52

to joy. Yeah, I love joy. Yeah, I

22:54

had. I got a lot of joy reading her review. One

22:57

of the things that really struck me and as

22:59

I was reading this, I tried to kind of put

23:02

my head into the shoes of someone who didn't

23:06

know who Stephen King was, who had not

23:08

read 70 plus

23:11

novels of his after this.

23:14

I also want to talk about that when we talk a

23:16

little bit about his foreshadowing. But a

23:18

lot of these reviews I found

23:20

praised his characters. They praised

23:22

his writing, but they were also

23:25

included as a three book review.

23:27

Those are just a couple of

23:29

paragraphs because these are the new

23:31

horror fiction out, or these are

23:33

the new paperbacks. It was

23:35

really interesting to see this

23:38

just reviewed as, I feel like

23:40

all of Stephen King reviews now

23:42

are Stephen King's new novel. It's

23:44

not the novel itself. Do

23:48

we feel like these reviews are kind of

23:50

right on the money? Do we agree with

23:52

them? Do we think

23:54

this is strong writing from

23:56

King? And do we think he's got a future

23:58

in this business? he's gonna make it.

24:03

I mean, yeah, it seems like, you know,

24:05

and I don't really know

24:07

much about the, you know,

24:09

what was going on at the time in

24:11

American literature, like, I'm not super educated on

24:13

that, but it does seem like at least

24:15

people were excited

24:18

to read it. Like, it was something, it

24:20

was something very obviously new. I do know,

24:23

I read this, and I've seen the movie

24:25

so many times, but I've never clocked it.

24:27

But apparently, like, Stephen King was so new

24:29

that when they made Carrie into, you know,

24:31

the Brian De Palma movie, they misspelled his

24:34

name in the credits. Oh,

24:36

really? I think they did. Instead

24:38

of a pH. There are

24:40

a couple times where that happened. Yeah, so

24:43

it is fascinating to read these people just

24:45

sort of like, you know, he wasn't necessarily

24:47

a young guy at the time, like he

24:49

wasn't a kid, but it was sort of

24:51

like, oh, this new fella in town, writing.

24:54

I like how many

24:57

times they would say repulsive,

24:59

disgusting, you know,

25:01

like horrid, but then the review

25:03

was positive. Despite

25:05

that, that's cool. It does feel

25:08

like they're very focused on the

25:10

fact that it might be a little bit

25:12

genre-busting, like they are like, oh, it exceeds

25:14

the graph of the genre to become something

25:16

else. I'm a little, I

25:18

mean, I think we are all biased,

25:20

but I do think King is so singular

25:22

that I am a little surprised at how

25:25

low-key some of these reviews are. Like, I

25:27

have to imagine coming, if I was in

25:29

the 70s reading this, I would

25:31

find it like electrifying. And I still do

25:33

today. So I'm a little

25:35

like, wow, I wish it had gotten a little

25:37

more airtime in this way. It seems like these

25:39

are sort of not quite knowing

25:41

how to place it and being like, oh,

25:43

it's a little different. It's repulsive and yet

25:46

also a little elevated and cerebral.

25:48

And I don't know, moving on.

25:51

Right, right. Yeah, I'm

25:53

a little surprised that I'm a little surprised, like there's

25:55

not more discussion about, I mean,

25:58

during this time, like Roe v. Wade and. us

26:00

what was happening in like the late

26:02

60s, early 70s and feminism. I'm a

26:04

little surprised that there's not more mention

26:06

of that because I do think that

26:08

this is for a first novel to

26:11

come at it from the perspective of a teenage girl

26:13

and to handle it in this way and

26:15

to center women so strongly

26:18

in this way. Like that's a very

26:21

interesting choice for our first time writer,

26:23

a male writer, I think at this

26:25

time to do that. And I'm a little

26:27

surprised that some of these reviews didn't, I

26:30

don't know, acknowledge that a little bit more. But

26:33

also, I think it's very clear that, in

26:35

my opinion, I tried to read this similarly, like,

26:37

okay, this is his first book, like try to

26:40

like, separate that out, because I haven't actually

26:42

tried to read it from that perspective and

26:44

look at it through that lens. And yeah,

26:47

it's, I mean, it's great, like, it

26:49

is really impressive. And so it's nice

26:51

to see that recognized in some of

26:53

these reviews, even if they do feel

26:55

a little surface level. And

26:57

we know the hardback like didn't sell

26:59

like hotcakes. So it could also be

27:01

Yeah, just it wasn't a force yet

27:04

out in the world. So yeah,

27:06

it wasn't earning quite as much space

27:08

in the paper. Yeah, yeah. And I

27:11

can almost see because I agree with you,

27:13

I do find it like it's electrifying. I

27:15

think that's a great word for it. And

27:17

I wonder if it almost was like too

27:19

much like too much of a jolt. And

27:21

they're like, I don't quite know what to

27:23

make of this. And like everybody kind of

27:25

looking around and like, do we love this?

27:27

Is this guy gonna be something, you know,

27:29

but also, you know, I know, it's hard

27:31

to get review time or review space, you know,

27:33

and so I think, I think

27:35

I agree with most of them, I do think

27:38

it's interesting how they're singling out the writing style,

27:40

because I think that is, aside

27:42

from the subject matter, the real strength

27:44

of this and the characterization. I

27:48

also think it's interesting, not only

27:50

with these reviews, but other people's takes

27:52

on Carrie that I've seen, like for

27:54

the one earlier that said like, what

27:56

happens if someone annoys them? And it's

27:58

like, was Carrie really annoys or was

28:00

she like horrifically abused? Like, can we

28:02

like, she was abused. And like, I've

28:04

heard people say like, call her mother

28:06

overbearing. And I'm like, she was not

28:09

overbearing. Like, there's a difference in like,

28:11

you know, a mom who, you know,

28:14

makes sure that you're always home on

28:16

time and doesn't let you go out and keeps

28:18

you and then a mom who like locks you

28:20

in the closet, tries to strangle you hits you

28:22

over the head with books, like, she's

28:25

not an overbearing mother. So I always find it

28:27

interesting when people talk about this novel and use

28:30

words like that that are not the extreme,

28:32

because it's so extreme. It

28:34

is. And I feel like, you know,

28:37

I wasn't alive in 74.

28:39

Yeah, but like, I feel

28:42

like this book in a lot of ways

28:44

kind of opens a dialogue or it becomes

28:46

part of like, a series of

28:49

things like I'm thinking about Black Christmas also, of

28:53

books that take women more seriously

28:55

and take, you know, menstruation seriously.

28:58

And I wonder if they

29:00

just weren't ready for that yet. I feel like

29:02

I'm like, Marty McFly, I mean, like, but your

29:05

kids are gonna love it. And I

29:07

found a lot of like, think pieces about kind

29:10

of more of what we're talking

29:12

about that we kind of were surprised to

29:14

not find in these initial reviews. And I

29:16

definitely think that that has come. I mean,

29:19

I've written about it myself. But

29:22

I wonder if they just they were like, what,

29:24

what is this, you know, and then once you

29:26

get Salem's Lot, and then you get The Shining,

29:28

like, what a first run,

29:31

you know, that's incredible. And I think

29:33

like, I just wonder if they just

29:35

weren't sure if they could take

29:37

him seriously yet. Even with

29:39

his own writing, it feels a little bit

29:41

like a fluke, you know, like, and we're

29:43

going to talk about the semi epistolary style.

29:45

So I don't necessarily want to step on

29:47

that. Let's talk about where horror fiction was

29:49

at the time and just kind of where

29:52

we were as like a country, I

29:54

don't have a ton of historical stuff,

29:57

but I can talk about the vibes,

29:59

which were not great for women. So

30:02

I found from a snapshot of

30:05

an age the publication history of

30:07

Carrie. In 1973 the American hardback

30:09

publisher Doubleday bought Stephen King's cooker

30:12

of a debut novel Carrie for an advance

30:14

of $2,500. I did think

30:17

to myself he's really cooking with this. That

30:19

does sound like something he would say about

30:25

himself writing it to you. It's like I really got

30:27

cooking on it you know you can just hear like

30:30

the AC-DC playing in the background or

30:32

Josie and the Moongloos. Although

30:35

the hardcover sales were modest the paperback

30:37

rights sold to New American Library for

30:41

$400,000. Two years later the sales figures boosted by Brian

30:43

De Palma's 1976 cult movie maybe

30:47

more than a cult movie totaled nearly four

30:49

million copies. On December 5th 1976 the movie

30:53

tie-in paperback of Carrie that's what

30:55

I have yay! Hit

30:57

the New York Times bestseller list

30:59

and remained there for 14 weeks

31:01

launching the Stephen King phenomenon. More

31:04

than a flash in the pan success

31:06

King would have a profound impact on

31:08

the publishing industry the most prominent of

31:10

a nucleus of writers including Robert Levlam

31:12

and Danielle Steele who could sell a

31:14

million copies in hardback year-on-year and then

31:16

10 million more in paperback. In

31:19

his own words King claims I started

31:21

out a storyteller along the way I

31:23

became an economic four. And

31:26

then a couple of facts I found before

31:28

Carrie the last novel to reach the

31:30

publisher's weekly bestseller list was Rebecca in

31:32

1938. That's apropos. Yeah I know.

31:37

And Carrie is credited as one of

31:39

four novels to result in contemporary mainstream

31:42

interest in horror literature and if

31:44

you're not looking is anybody not looking and want to

31:46

guess those other three novels? I'm

31:48

looking. Do we all look? I'm sorry. I was like I told

31:51

you to look. Listeners didn't look

31:53

though so we have Rosemary's Baby, The

31:55

Exorcist, and The Other. And

31:58

I think it also really benefited. from timing. So

32:00

Bev Vinson in his Stephen King, a complete

32:03

exploration of his work, life and influence, it

32:05

says, Dave King once heard his brother say

32:07

that if Carrie had come six months earlier

32:09

or six months later, he might have missed

32:12

out on the perfect timing presented by the

32:14

popularity of the exorcist and would still be

32:16

teaching English. I think he, I

32:18

don't think he would have made it. I mean, I think

32:20

he would have made it too. But I also think it

32:23

was a little bit kids met, like we were just ready

32:25

for something like that. And then

32:27

I read The Exorcist. I have. Yeah,

32:29

I read a couple of times and I really love it.

32:31

Does it get as a as graphic as the

32:33

movie does? Because I'm wondering if to I mean,

32:35

yeah, of a keeping with all

32:38

of the animalistic bodily

32:40

imagery. It's close to

32:42

word for word for the original movie.

32:44

Very close. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah.

32:47

Yeah. Very. What's

32:50

the word I'm looking for? Close.

32:52

Close adaptations. Yeah, close

32:55

adaptations. But I feel like

32:57

those novels and Carrie as

32:59

well, to an extent

33:01

really got like the spirit of those

33:03

films got like the spirit of the

33:05

novel as well. And maybe I'm biased

33:07

because The Exorcist and Rosemary's Baby are

33:10

books that I read after I saw

33:12

the movie. Whereas Carrie was

33:14

a book I read before I saw the

33:16

movie. And what's funny is even in seventh

33:18

grade, like I'd never seen the movie. But

33:21

I still knew it was such a

33:23

huge film. And it was such

33:26

a huge phenomenon. I knew what happened. Like I

33:28

knew what the ending was going to be. I

33:30

knew that she burned down prom. So it's just

33:32

funny that even in seventh grade, I had some

33:34

general knowledge of what happens in Carrie, like that's

33:37

how big it was. It

33:39

is interesting to think about like what if for

33:41

some reason it didn't get picked up so

33:43

quickly to make a movie? Like what would

33:45

have happened if that never happened? Like what if

33:48

it never sold film rights? Like

33:50

would King still be? Or I

33:52

don't know, not that he wouldn't make it or be as big

33:55

or popular, but like what would those early years

33:57

look like? Yeah, because I do think that movie

34:00

I mean, to have Brian De Palma

34:02

do your first movie and to do

34:04

it like this with these stars who

34:06

were names at the time, like, that's

34:09

pretty wild, I think, especially

34:11

for something that wasn't an automatic

34:13

out of the door success. Mm

34:15

hmm. Mm hmm. Those paperback

34:17

rights definitely would have changed his life, but we don't know if

34:20

he would have become a household name in the same in the

34:22

same way. It's an interesting question. Yeah. And

34:24

like so many, like immediately everything that he wrote after

34:26

there, like got adapted pretty quickly for a while there

34:29

based off of how Carrie did, I

34:31

think. So it's just a

34:33

weird hypothetical to think about like, what would

34:35

a world look like? Alternate timeline. Yeah, what

34:37

would happen if Carrie did not get me

34:39

into the movie so quickly right off the bat or have

34:41

Brian De Palma do it? What if it sucked? Right.

34:44

Well, and not just like adapted, but like after

34:47

De Palma, it was like Toby Hooper and then

34:49

Stanley Kubrick. So it was like he was getting

34:52

like big names too. And

34:54

I think also because of that stinger

34:56

ending at the ending of Carrie, you

34:58

know, which is a departure from the

35:00

book, but I think it works really

35:02

well. But I think that is kind

35:04

of catapulted it too. So to have

35:06

a filmmaker take make that change, kind

35:09

of take that risk. Part

35:11

of the reason I think that the

35:13

exorcist of Rosemary's Baby feels so

35:15

close to the source material is

35:17

because just 70s movies just

35:19

kind of have a slower vibe to

35:21

them. And that's a generalization. I know

35:23

there's some outliers, but they're also all

35:25

religious. Exactly. They're all

35:27

religious. Yeah. And I think

35:29

I have tried to read the other twice. And

35:34

it's good. It's not that it's bad.

35:36

It's just that I have seen this

35:38

twist that probably started with the other,

35:40

but I've seen it so many times.

35:43

I'm reading that book. It feels like

35:45

it's a twist train like barreling

35:47

towards you. And I was like, I just,

35:50

I can't do it. But if

35:52

you have finished the other, please let me know and tell me

35:54

if I should try it again because that is one that's been

35:56

on my list for a while that I want to check

35:58

off. audiobook. Yeah,

36:01

I've tried it.

36:05

But yeah, there's like this kind of vibe to

36:08

both of those. They feel very cinematic

36:10

when you read them too. And

36:14

then we have all from

36:16

How Carrie Changed Stephen King's Life and

36:18

Began a Generation of Horror from Alice

36:21

in Floods. Although Carrie helped

36:23

usher in a boom period of

36:25

huge popularity for horror fiction, it's

36:27

also a very strange and unusual

36:29

book. Nice Beale

36:31

dew shot up. Uncompromising. Believes

36:34

American author Jeff VanderMeer. Carrie

36:36

changed the paradigm by announcing a very American

36:38

form of horror that broke with the past.

36:41

That process might have been ongoing anyway, but

36:43

a lot of horror and weird fiction was

36:45

still in a kind of post. M.R.

36:49

James Lovecraft, I'm sorry, slash

36:52

Lovecraft mode of parchment and

36:54

shadowy alleys and half-seen horrors.

36:56

And here was King dropping

36:58

buckets of blood over everything

37:00

and making characterization more both

37:02

more relaxed and more contemporary,

37:04

but just as sophisticated if

37:06

more naturalistic, less stylized.

37:09

Which and you know when we mention

37:12

Rebecca, like I have not read Rebecca,

37:14

but I'm familiar with it. And it

37:16

does feel like it's not only like

37:20

new and different, but it's fresh

37:22

and it's modern and it's like

37:24

taking teenagers seriously, but also like

37:26

killing them. Like it almost feels

37:28

like it's it's a slasher

37:31

kind of book, you know, not in format,

37:33

but in vibes, you know. And now

37:36

you said when we mentioned Rebecca, tell

37:39

me a little bit about the comparison between Rebecca and

37:41

Carrie. Oh, I have

37:43

not read Rebecca. But isn't it? I

37:46

just mean it's a female centric book.

37:49

I believe Rebecca is about a woman going insane. Oh

37:52

yeah, and there's a lady trapped in the attic. That's one of

37:54

the things I know. Have you all

37:56

read Rebecca? Nope. No.

38:01

You know, when we were talking about like

38:03

how it changed American

38:05

fiction or at least genre fiction at the

38:07

time, because I know the horror movies that

38:09

I read that pre-date this, horror

38:12

movies that I read Hello, the horror

38:14

books that I read that pre-date this

38:16

were things like Hell House, The Hunting

38:18

of Hill House, and like, they all

38:20

have sort of a gothic vibe, even

38:22

if it's not necessarily gothic horror as

38:24

like, as gothic as in romantic as

38:26

like Dracula, it's still very gothic feeling.

38:31

So yeah, setting this at from,

38:33

from. I

38:39

love teaching this after Hill House and

38:41

Dracula, though, because the epistolary format reminds

38:43

the kids of Dracula. Totally. And

38:46

the stones reminds the kids of, I mean, that's

38:48

just plucked right out of Hill House. Yeah. The

38:51

Reign of Stones on the House. So

38:53

he's definitely borrowing from that gothic mode

38:55

and just transferring it over

38:58

to this very contemporary place. And I

39:00

love seeing those influences in there. It

39:02

makes for a lot of interesting resonances.

39:06

It is a perfect time, I think, because you look at even

39:09

outside of the horror genre, what's happening, it's like the

39:11

horror is coming home, right? And

39:14

this is the same time we get

39:16

Texas Chainsaw and The

39:18

Hills Have Eyes and all of a sudden the

39:20

horror is right next door. It can be a

39:22

16 year old girl who just started a period.

39:24

Oh my God. Rather than like

39:27

Ashley was saying, kind of these gothic

39:29

fantastical or Lovecraftian monsters and ghosts and

39:31

that kind of stuff. So

39:33

it was the perfect time to release

39:36

it because even with Rosemary's Baby and

39:38

The Exorcist, yes, they're all

39:40

religious. But also it's just something

39:42

that can happen to just the normal

39:45

person, the young couple, the girl and

39:47

her daughter. Nobody is safe and

39:50

that terror could be living right next door. And just,

39:52

I don't know, just plays into the whole paranoia too

39:54

that you have and the loss of belief in your

39:56

government and just, oh, how can

39:58

this happen here? And

40:01

also, I mean, you've got the double edge of,

40:04

Carrie is an anomaly and the TK gene

40:06

is a terrifying thing to

40:08

descend upon suburbia or, you know, the small

40:10

town in Maine. But the true horror of

40:12

the book are the things that go on

40:14

every day. It's the mundanity of bullying. It's

40:17

the terrors of conformity, which I believe this

40:19

book does so, so well. Like the two

40:21

sections are some of my favorite sections in

40:23

the book. So it's

40:25

both the descent of something external and

40:27

terrifying, but also just that

40:30

is wholly prompted by living

40:32

as a T in America. Yeah.

40:36

And it's so relatable, you know, and as

40:39

much as I love gothic horror, like I'm

40:41

currently obsessed with the woman in black right

40:43

now. But that book,

40:45

I believe, was published in the, you know, the

40:47

movie was in 83. I

40:50

can't remember, but it was, it was fairly

40:52

modern. So it felt like a throwback to

40:54

be reading about it, especially on the heels

40:56

of King who was writing about right now,

40:58

you know, and he's always said he's a

41:00

writer of the moment. Um,

41:02

and so like, if, if, you

41:04

know, maybe Carrie lives next to you,

41:06

like, I love the part where they're

41:08

interviewing the, the California Miss Sun and

41:10

Fun Club lady. And she seems like

41:13

a normal person, you know, and that, and

41:15

not like she's living on a grand castle

41:17

in the moors, you know, even

41:20

though that will always be spooky. I feel

41:22

like some of the horror that hits me

41:25

the hardest is the horror that I can

41:27

see myself being in the middle of

41:29

or being pulled into. Yeah. I mean,

41:31

you're safe from the spooky mansion in

41:33

the moors because you don't go travel

41:36

to get there. Yeah. You

41:38

don't go. Right. Yeah. I

41:41

simply wouldn't go. I simply wouldn't go.

41:43

I also think comparing to Rebecca and

41:45

this is me getting on my soapbox

41:47

as, you know, horror has

41:49

always really been about women, you know,

41:52

not full, you

41:54

know, I'm not whole cloth, but like women,

41:57

our lives are horror a lot of times. And

41:59

I think the. best horror, the horror

42:01

that really resonates is horror that

42:03

examines that, you know, and even

42:06

with the earliest stuff like Frankenstein from

42:08

a woman, there's a lot about, you

42:10

know, childbirth and creation there. And then

42:12

Dracula even has the stuff with on

42:15

Blanket Lucy, you know, there's just, there's

42:17

always women and then not to mention

42:19

Shirley Jackson, who was just incredible, but

42:21

like, I feel like

42:24

that's what rings true in a lot

42:26

of ways with, you know,

42:28

in ways that other stories just

42:31

don't, they don't. It's so

42:33

funny that they're both just names of women,

42:35

like Rebecca was the last best seller to

42:37

achieve that mark. And it

42:39

reminds me, Jen, you talking about

42:41

that just reminds me of that little

42:43

tale that might be apocryphal about the

42:45

astronauts when the first woman astronaut went

42:47

up in space. And they were like,

42:49

how many tampons you gonna need? Like,

42:51

is 80 gonna be enough? And she was

42:53

like, you think I need 80 tampons for like two

42:56

days and three days? A

42:59

hundred? How much could they cost

43:01

$10? Yeah. And

43:04

you know, if we also look at the other

43:06

three books, like what we said, Rosemary's Baby and

43:09

The Exorcist and the one that has

43:11

not stood the test of time,

43:13

the other is about two boys. Wow.

43:16

And of the four, it's the

43:18

one that's not about women that

43:20

we've all written by men though,

43:22

right? All written by men. Yeah.

43:24

The inherent mystery and terror

43:26

of the female form. Picture

43:29

them being like, you know, they bleed every

43:31

month, like blood just comes out of

43:33

them. And they don't die. I know.

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sold. Well,

44:27

let's talk about some feminist shit, which

44:30

is always my favorite thing to talk

44:32

about. Okay, so from Donce Macabre, Carrie

44:35

is largely about how women find their

44:37

own channels of power, but also what

44:39

men fear about women and women's sexuality.

44:41

Writing the book in 1973, and only

44:44

three years out of college, I was

44:46

fully aware of what women's liberation implied

44:48

for me and others of my sex.

44:50

Carrie is a woman feeling her powers

44:52

for the first time and like Samson

44:55

pulling down the temple on everyone insight

44:57

at the end of the book. I

44:59

think that's particularly what I like about

45:01

it. And then

45:03

I found The History of Stephen King's

45:06

Carrie by Erin Bartuska. Carrie

45:08

White's relationship with her mother was

45:10

representative of the nationwide decrease in

45:12

religious interest among teens and the

45:14

subsequent unraveling of the traditional family

45:16

unit. In a time when sexual

45:18

promiscuity was growing more prominent in

45:21

media and everyday life, the depiction

45:23

of an unyielding mother who viewed

45:25

womanhood as sinful made Carrie White

45:27

somewhat of a sympathetic antihero, as

45:29

well as an emblem for an

45:31

evolving America. Carrie was more than

45:33

a horror novel. It was a cautionary tale

45:36

that warned against the dangers of sheltered upbringing.

45:38

So my question when

45:41

we're thinking about those that

45:44

what I just read, do we

45:47

think Carrie wants us to feel women

45:49

to fear? Do

45:51

we think Carrie wants us to fear

45:53

women? And can we feel

45:55

that fear as we're, can we feel King's fear

45:57

as we're reading the novel? I

46:01

didn't get that impression at all, really. I

46:04

mean, it's an interesting question to

46:06

ask. You know, I've heard of

46:09

people's experience with Carrie and hating it

46:12

for the way that it describes women

46:14

and women's bodies, whereas when I read

46:16

it, I read it as a direct

46:19

criticism of how society makes

46:21

women feel about their bodies. Not

46:24

that the author himself felt that way about

46:26

women's bodies. A lot of

46:28

people judge Carrie off of the films alone

46:30

and think that the power came from her

46:33

first period and think that it's an allegory

46:35

for hormones and PMS and da da da

46:37

da da, when that couldn't be further from

46:39

the truth. And I think

46:41

that depending

46:44

on the stage of your life that you read it in,

46:47

because this time around the

46:50

things that really stood out to me

46:52

were the child abuse and the religious

46:54

fanaticism, as opposed to

46:57

when I read this, you know, for the second time

46:59

around in my 20s when it

47:01

was very much so about women and

47:04

the power and like the power they

47:06

have over men in

47:08

a sexual way. Like it's just like it's a

47:10

different, I think there's so much more to this

47:13

novel that I don't

47:15

necessarily feel that it

47:18

wants us to fear women. Yeah,

47:21

I don't think that Carrie wants us. I agree. Carrie

47:24

wants us to fear women. I personally see it as more

47:27

King kind of exploring the fact that

47:29

society does fear women. Yeah, they

47:31

already do. Yeah, and

47:33

like kind of how that fear

47:35

has shaped and spun the narrative

47:37

around women's bodies, emotions and places

47:39

in society, and ultimately just

47:41

kind of how fucked that is and how tragic

47:43

it is to deny and repress the power

47:46

and strength that women can possess. But

47:48

what I love about Carrie is the way

47:50

that King is also able to capture just a

47:52

bit of the fear about, you

47:55

know, actually being a woman. Like

47:57

that's impressive to me that he was able to.

48:00

get some of that in there, you know, not just for

48:02

Carrie, but her mom, Miss. Art,

48:04

what is it? Dejardin, Jordan,

48:07

like all of these women have

48:09

different elements of this, like

48:14

different kinds of fears of what they're going

48:16

through. And, you know, yeah, high school is

48:18

awful. Like, I don't think any of us are

48:20

going to argue that point, but there's so much

48:22

more for women to fear than what's just relegated

48:25

to puberty in classrooms and school hallways. And

48:27

I think that's more what he's

48:29

exploring, not like telling us like,

48:32

oh, yeah, you should be afraid of these women because

48:34

they have power and you just don't know it. Like, I

48:36

didn't get that vibe from it. I

48:38

think it's a great question. I think you

48:40

hit the nail on the head with the

48:42

key word for me, Rachel, which is I

48:44

think this is about the dangers of repression

48:47

as that review said the dangers of a

48:49

sheltered upbringing. And it's very hard

48:51

to detangle repression from

48:53

womanhood, especially at this time, because

48:56

we are taught to repress

48:58

those aspects that are deemed

49:01

unsavory, such as the

49:03

fact that we bleed quite often.

49:05

And the fact that I

49:08

mean, puberty itself is like, I

49:10

suppose, deemed a little bit unsavory and

49:12

gross no matter what gender identity you

49:14

have. But

49:16

because women are expected to be

49:19

very smooth and prim and pure,

49:22

they have to do more work to do all the repression.

49:24

And the same thing with religion. You have to be very

49:27

virginal and saintly. There's

49:30

a point in the book where he describes

49:33

the Jesus hanging in Carrie's home. And I

49:35

was struck for the first time, even though

49:37

I've read this book very many times, how

49:40

Jesus is described as bleeding

49:42

and almost naked. And it's

49:44

very graphic and gory. And

49:47

that is sanctioned. But

49:50

it's the same type of stuff that's getting shut down

49:52

when women display it in the book. So

49:54

I do and I can't

49:56

wait to get into the thorniness of sort

49:59

of King. influence

50:01

personally on this book. Like I think

50:04

it's feminism is a very complicated feminism

50:06

and I think there is a lot

50:09

in here that delineates a very narrow-minded

50:12

view of what it means for women

50:14

to have power in Stephen King's mind.

50:18

And I do get a little bit of his

50:21

perhaps personal distaste for certain

50:23

things in this book. If

50:25

it's not fear, it's certainly

50:29

a disgust,

50:31

which is so interesting given that

50:34

the book itself is actively trying

50:36

to rebel against

50:38

that and the conformist attitude

50:40

of what is disgusting and what should be repressed.

50:43

So I can't wait to get into more of

50:45

that discussion. I don't think it wants us to

50:47

fear women necessarily. I think it's interested in displaying

50:50

views of power that readers might not have conceived of.

50:52

And of course, some of those are going to be

50:55

held by women. But

50:57

I do think King cannot avoid putting some of his

50:59

own, I don't know, fears

51:03

and distastes in

51:05

there in a way that reads

51:07

a little obvious. Absolutely.

51:10

Yeah. And I also recently

51:12

revisited a section of Donce

51:14

Macabre that mentions a lot of

51:16

those fears that I definitely think are present.

51:18

I think I don't necessarily find the

51:22

novel wanting me to fear women, but

51:25

I do think it wants us to

51:27

take women seriously, which is I think

51:29

what I love the most about it.

51:31

It's got so many different like complex.

51:34

And I find really believable female characters,

51:36

which I think is for

51:38

me, what kind of speaks

51:42

to the feminist qualities of it, you know,

51:44

like, are the female characters

51:46

as interesting as the male characters? And in this

51:48

one, I find the male characters to be pretty

51:50

one note, you know, and

51:52

I mean, I don't necessarily I feel

51:54

like the can a man write good

51:56

female characters. I found that question kind

51:58

of reductive, like I don't want

52:00

to live in a world where women can't talk

52:03

about men and I don't want to live in

52:05

a world where men can't talk about women. So

52:07

obviously, men can write about women, but I do

52:09

think it's really interesting to see

52:11

this depiction of women

52:13

from a male writer, especially with

52:16

his first novel out of the game.

52:19

Yeah, a young male writer. Especially a

52:21

teen, yeah, and a teenage girl. Like,

52:23

yeah, it's such a specific experience. And

52:25

you know, he's even said like his

52:27

wife helped him out so much with

52:30

that aspect of it. But, you

52:32

know, it was poignant when I was in

52:34

seventh grade and it's still to this day

52:37

relatable. So that's really impressive, I think. I

52:40

think he's also said that it was hard for

52:42

him to go back to it because he too

52:44

was finding Carrie to be unrelatable, unlikable, kind of

52:46

gross when he first started

52:49

writing it and then had to really

52:51

access her by thinking about bullied girls

52:53

from his past. Yeah,

52:56

and I think that's one of the things I find

52:58

really interesting is that I think he's kind of exploring

53:00

with this is like complicity in

53:02

bullying and like, do you have to be

53:04

the one throwing all the tampons to be

53:06

guilty? And if you're just standing

53:09

on the side not doing it, are

53:11

you still guilty? Are you still like

53:13

deserving of punishment? And is there a

53:15

redemption from that? And

53:17

I feel like this is one of the –

53:19

like we are so immersed in King's work now

53:21

that I feel like I just

53:23

kind of take for granted the story that Tabitha

53:25

pulled this out of the trash. But

53:27

if you're listening to this for the first time,

53:30

maybe this is your first King novel, I think

53:32

it does – it

53:34

is a big part of the story that I think he

53:36

did not want to write this. I think he was nervous

53:39

to write it. He was nervous to explore this world. And

53:42

I mean for a man to write a scene

53:44

about a first period, I would

53:46

be intimidated too if I were King. And

53:48

I think like the fact

53:50

that his wife did encourage him to keep

53:52

going and said, I'll help you. His dedication

53:56

is for Tabitha who got me into this

53:58

and then bailed me out. me out of

54:00

it, which I think I'm paraphrasing. But I

54:02

think one of the things that has always

54:04

really struck me about King and his writing,

54:06

because he doesn't always get it right. He

54:08

has some characters that I don't like and

54:10

that I find problematic. But I

54:13

think more often than not, he does

54:15

because he's willing to listen to other

54:17

perspectives. And I think it's this willingness

54:19

to listen to Tabitha and say, okay,

54:21

if you tell me the scene's not

54:23

ringing true, I believe you, I'm not

54:25

going to be too prideful to like,

54:27

I don't know too much, I'm

54:29

not going to mansplain women to you,

54:31

you know. Well,

54:34

speaking of men in the 70s, I

54:37

found this from a feminist guide to

54:39

horror movies, part five, the blood of

54:41

Carrie by Holly Elder. While

54:43

men in the 70s felt threatened by

54:45

the unprecedented numbers of women standing up

54:47

for themselves and attempting such radical social

54:49

changes as being recognized as equal under

54:51

the law, women

54:53

themselves must have felt some anxiety

54:55

that the obstacles to fully realizing

54:57

themselves might be too big to

54:59

conquer. The story therefore resonates with

55:01

men in terms of the fear

55:04

of metaphorical castration prompted by changing

55:06

gender roles and with women in

55:08

terms of the fear that no

55:10

matter how powerful we become, social

55:12

forces are still so aligned

55:14

against us that fighting back

55:16

might destroy not just the

55:18

patriarchy, but ourselves. I

55:22

know that when it hits you,

55:24

because that's a fear,

55:26

and I talk a lot about the

55:29

patriarchy as a latter, and so many

55:31

women feed it by accepting

55:33

that they'll only go so high and you got to

55:35

step on other women. So

55:39

I guess we are going to spoil

55:41

this novel, but nobody really comes out

55:43

clean in this book, nobody really wins.

55:47

Do we find this good for

55:49

her horror? No.

55:53

For me, in good

55:55

for her horror, I feel like

55:58

the her in questions. has

56:00

to have some kind of like happy

56:02

or triumphant ending to

56:04

be good for her like Midsommar,

56:07

the witch, deathproof. This is just

56:09

like tragedy through and through,

56:11

no winners. There

56:13

are moments where Carrie will be like,

56:16

oh, that guy died funny, that was

56:18

funny. But like there's no like, there's

56:20

no hurrah at the end. Like everyone

56:22

loses in the end. Yeah. I

56:25

do like, I do like, you

56:27

know, there's good for her moments. I think, yeah,

56:30

you know, like when she turns around to go

56:32

back to the school after she kind of like

56:34

crawls away and is like feeling just completely defeated

56:36

and then she picks herself back up and is

56:39

like, no, fuck that. I'm going to

56:41

go back and I'm going to stand up to them and

56:43

I'm going to show them who's boss and she confronts her

56:45

bullies. Like that's a good for her moment. But

56:48

then she kills a lot of innocent people and destroys

56:50

the whole town. So, you know,

56:52

there's a mixed bag of a

56:54

moment. Like there's, there's moments where I'm happy

56:57

to see her stand up for herself and

56:59

really kind of figure out how she's feeling about certain things.

57:02

But ultimately, yeah, no, nobody, nobody's

57:05

winning here. No,

57:07

I always flashback to the section that

57:10

is, I believe from Sue Snell's book that just

57:12

goes on about how they were kids. And

57:14

I feel like, yeah, that's

57:16

also hugely relevant as much as gender,

57:19

like just, just the blatant sociopathy

57:22

of being in high school. And

57:26

only very few people, Tommy and

57:28

Sue, I think are notable in

57:30

this capacity. Perhaps Miss Desjardins too,

57:32

but she kind of flip flops

57:34

back and forth to

57:37

kind of rise above your primal

57:39

idness and consider things

57:41

from a more empathetic point of

57:43

view. But yeah, this is

57:46

a tragedy as you guys, as you guys

57:48

said, like completely beginning to end. It

57:50

can't, there's really no good for

57:52

her if there isn't, I think

57:54

like, a

57:57

sort of like adult woman that's been through the world.

58:00

world a little bit maybe? I don't know.

58:02

Like it's just like they're kids. There's no,

58:04

I mean, they haven't experienced shit. So like,

58:07

it's hard to get to the standpoint,

58:10

the lofty standpoint of a good for her type

58:12

of thing. Yeah. Lots

58:14

of times I think I view good for

58:16

her. I have a famously loose definition of

58:19

good for her, which I think really

58:21

is more good for me. Like, does it make

58:23

me feel good? Does it make me want to

58:25

like set the world on fire, you know? But

58:28

I think like if we think about it, like I

58:31

love that quote at the end, like, if

58:33

we get too powerful, will we destroy

58:35

the entire world? Is that, and

58:38

so is it good for us to be

58:40

powerful? Do we think that this is a

58:42

cautionary tale? And if

58:44

so, who is it

58:47

trying to warn? Hmm.

58:50

That's a good question. Like I think I

58:52

definitely think it's a cautionary tale about bullying

58:54

and it's, Hey, take women

58:56

seriously. Like, cause you

58:59

know, just like you can be scared of men,

59:01

you can be scared of women too. Women have

59:03

power. It just doesn't look like the power that

59:05

we're used to seeing. Like we just talked about

59:08

the movie on the lady killers and Sami had

59:10

this really great comparison. She said with men, blood

59:13

is like a sign of like victory

59:15

and like overcoming someone in battle. And

59:17

like you drew blood, that means you're

59:19

strong. And here blood is looked at

59:21

as like this monstrous thing, but it's,

59:24

it could also here, it's another form

59:26

of power, even though I think your

59:28

telekinesis is not directly connected to blood,

59:30

but it's just so intermeshed.

59:32

But do you think, do you feel

59:35

like it's a cautionary tale for women?

59:37

I think it

59:39

wants to be a cautionary tale

59:41

advising us against repression and conformity,

59:44

especially with how the end dovetails with

59:46

the coverup of what has happened. I

59:49

think we're meant to look at that as a

59:51

bad thing, sweeping this under the rug,

59:54

alighting the truth, what people are saying

59:56

actually happened, is only going to

59:58

make the world more dangerous. the

1:00:00

same way as not acknowledging our

1:00:02

bodily functions, our desires,

1:00:05

the ways in which we want to rebel from the

1:00:07

codes that have been set for us. It's

1:00:09

not good to repress those things because it leads

1:00:11

to explosion or destruction.

1:00:14

I think that is what it wants

1:00:16

to be a cautionary tale about, but as we will

1:00:18

discuss, I do think it gets in its own way

1:00:21

when it's trying to do that by the end too. It's

1:00:25

got some real contradictory messaging

1:00:27

in it. It does

1:00:29

want to be convinced of the danger of

1:00:31

too much volatile power run amok, so it's

1:00:33

not saying we should all just be Carrie,

1:00:35

right? But I do think it's

1:00:37

saying that sustained repression

1:00:40

will almost always lead to explosion, and

1:00:43

then the attempt to cover up the explosion

1:00:46

is renewing the cycle of repression. It

1:00:50

is so interesting, since this is his

1:00:52

first book, but we've all read a lot

1:00:54

of King at this point, and it just

1:00:56

feels like there's so many King hallmarks, and

1:00:59

they are all in this book. He

1:01:01

really starts up everything. All

1:01:06

of that here is the fanaticism, the

1:01:08

paranoia, the distrust of authority, the horror,

1:01:10

the supernatural elements.

1:01:14

Burning the town down? Even

1:01:16

the writing quirks, all his parentheticals.

1:01:18

Yeah, it's all here. It's like

1:01:20

he sprang from the womb fully formed. I

1:01:24

don't necessarily think he's fully committed

1:01:26

to any of those ideas. He's

1:01:28

just exploring and working through all of them,

1:01:31

while also exploring and working through his own guilt

1:01:33

and thoughts about these two girls that

1:01:35

he really knew that were bullied mercilessly

1:01:37

in school. He's such

1:01:39

an observer, right? We know

1:01:41

he's such a meticulous observer

1:01:44

of everything, of signs on roads, and

1:01:46

oh, that's weird. I wonder what would

1:01:48

happen if this? I

1:01:51

don't know. It's just

1:01:53

wild how he's just observing all these little

1:01:55

things and thinking about it. I

1:01:57

think this is something, a story, a thought that's... especially

1:02:00

since he's teaching school at this point, I'm sure it's also

1:02:02

bringing up a lot of these feelings. Like I just got

1:02:04

to get this out. Yeah. So

1:02:07

yeah, I don't feel like he's committed to any

1:02:09

one- Message. Focus

1:02:11

thing, yeah. But it's pretty good how he's

1:02:13

able to do that and balance them all, honestly. And

1:02:16

to be honest, I think that's part of another

1:02:19

thing that I think makes me really

1:02:21

love his writing is like, I

1:02:23

feel like he is more of an exploratory

1:02:25

writer. Like he, and I feel like that's

1:02:28

why a lot of people are dissatisfied with

1:02:30

his ending sometimes because he's not pandering with

1:02:32

his endings. He's not giving us the feel-good

1:02:34

stuff. And I feel like he's so rarely

1:02:36

enters a book with an agenda, you know?

1:02:39

Like, I don't think he's telling this story

1:02:41

to intentionally scare us away from

1:02:43

anything. I think it just kind of naturally

1:02:45

comes out and there's enough that I can

1:02:47

see that in it, but someone else

1:02:50

could see something completely different. And

1:02:52

Mel, as you were talking about

1:02:54

like the social

1:02:57

structure of this too, I was

1:03:00

realizing like, I see this as such an

1:03:02

individual story. Like I see it as about

1:03:04

a collection of girls that

1:03:06

I relate to, but it's also coming in

1:03:08

like the Watergate era. And I think there's

1:03:11

a lot of like distrust

1:03:13

of the government. You know, I think we

1:03:15

see that with the coverup too, you know,

1:03:17

that is, there's also a lot

1:03:19

of really interesting

1:03:21

things there, which is definitely something King's gonna

1:03:23

write about in the future. All

1:03:27

right, well, let's talk a little bit

1:03:29

more about him writing a woman. So

1:03:31

I did not know this. I thought

1:03:33

I knew everything about this story, but

1:03:37

I did not. He was bet $10 to

1:03:39

attempt a story with a female main character

1:03:41

by his friend, Flip Thompson. King

1:03:44

started Carrie as a short story, but after

1:03:46

a few pages, King is very sub four

1:03:48

and 15, he realized that he had an

1:03:50

avella on his hand. And

1:03:52

then, sorry, that was from the great Stephen

1:03:54

King reread Carrie by Grady Hendrix. And then

1:03:57

from Stephen King's Carrie and the horror

1:03:59

of girlhood. by Megan Nolan that

1:04:02

Stephen King managed to capture these ugly

1:04:04

calcified feelings of womanhood in a debut

1:04:06

novel that was the result of the

1:04:08

prompt challenging him to write his first

1:04:10

woman is a little short of miraculous

1:04:12

and just another indicator that he is

1:04:14

one of the great writers of our

1:04:16

time. So my question is

1:04:18

Carrie a feminist novel. I

1:04:21

googled what is a feminist

1:04:24

novel because I wanted to know like

1:04:27

what was the interweb have to say? What does

1:04:29

Google have to tell me? And it said a

1:04:32

feminist novel is basically

1:04:35

a novel that writes

1:04:37

about the female experience

1:04:40

whether that's in general or at a specific

1:04:42

time. And this

1:04:47

really struck me because I actually even wrote down on

1:04:49

page 40 of my book. I don't know what page

1:04:51

it is on your book. Carrie

1:04:53

is talking about how envious she is

1:04:55

of women in Seventeen magazine for how

1:04:57

free and loose their clothes are as

1:05:00

she's taking off all of her layers,

1:05:02

her blouse, her knee skirt, her slip,

1:05:04

her girdle, her garter belt, her stockings.

1:05:06

And she describes her clothes as being

1:05:08

so hot and heavy. And

1:05:10

as a woman who was sent

1:05:12

home and made

1:05:14

to wear my PE uniform in school

1:05:17

on a 103 degree August

1:05:20

day because the straps on my tank

1:05:22

top weren't sick enough

1:05:25

and it was a dress code violation, it's summer.

1:05:29

I'm so hot. Like

1:05:32

that is such a

1:05:35

huge moment that so many women can

1:05:37

relate to. I never saw a man,

1:05:39

a boy get sent home from

1:05:41

school or have to wear his PE uniform

1:05:43

for something that they were wearing unless I

1:05:45

had like a curse word on it. It's

1:05:47

like, duh, don't wear that to school you

1:05:49

dummy. But like when

1:05:51

we would raise our hands, if our stomachs would

1:05:53

show, we would have to wear our PE

1:05:56

shirt. And it's just things like that where it's

1:05:58

like a lot of. Man.

1:06:01

Would. Have no idea.

1:06:03

They. Don't notice the girls are getting

1:06:06

sent home. They don't know what it

1:06:08

feels like to have to put on

1:06:10

your p uniform that smells like p

1:06:12

that like they don't know what it

1:06:14

feels like to be sent home feeling

1:06:16

ashamed because you wore a tank top

1:06:19

in August? I do think in that

1:06:21

sense. It

1:06:23

is extremely feminists. is Greg knowledge

1:06:25

in that? Those specific

1:06:28

female experiences. Yeah.

1:06:31

I would agree. I think it's I think this

1:06:33

book is at it's most feminists when. They.

1:06:36

Said. Is acknowledging. The.

1:06:38

Difficulties societal he of being

1:06:41

a woman m. The

1:06:43

Realities experience. Really. I'm from. I'm

1:06:45

seeing a woman. And

1:06:48

also be when it is. Acknowledging

1:06:51

the humanity and complexity

1:06:53

and. Com. Fallibility.

1:06:56

Of Women and the contradictory nature of

1:06:58

of ceiling switch men and women have

1:07:00

I'm and I think again soon as

1:07:02

the best example of that. How. All

1:07:05

of her motives are unknowable even to

1:07:07

herself, and may contain so many facets

1:07:09

and multitudes. And they aren't just pure

1:07:11

at their. Tinted. with all

1:07:13

sorts of other feeling, some of them noble,

1:07:16

some of them self centered, And

1:07:18

we love that we went to see that

1:07:20

complexity. I think that's book. It's least feminist

1:07:23

when. It can only

1:07:25

envision. Success or

1:07:27

power as associate it with

1:07:29

womanhood. As also

1:07:32

correlated with very traditional. Markers.

1:07:34

Of desirability ends attractiveness

1:07:37

and aesthetics basically com

1:07:39

which I think. Is.

1:07:42

This something Stephen King struggles to to

1:07:44

escape, even in even in his great

1:07:47

novels. Yeah, I think there's

1:07:49

also. Like there's a lot of

1:07:51

things I find very like empowering and cathartic to

1:07:53

sick Ashley was saying like s like this is

1:07:55

like so cool to see realize and this weights

1:07:57

but I also like a he other women are.

1:08:00

The pitted against each other. You

1:08:02

know misters it can. I can

1:08:04

say that businesses right in Mississippi

1:08:06

again. See know Chris. Some of the

1:08:08

other girls and then Carry against everybody obviously

1:08:10

and even there's moments where Sues like oh

1:08:13

what it what if he falls in love

1:08:15

with her legs and starts the kind of

1:08:17

have these antagonistic feelings towards Carry and I

1:08:19

think that that as a little like, I

1:08:21

don't know if I like that that all

1:08:24

these women. To. They tommy as are

1:08:26

the only altruistic. Pure character is

1:08:28

necessary as I am. I

1:08:31

now long living army chaplain a

1:08:34

bit harder as the paper. A

1:08:36

perfect in every way like band,

1:08:38

a poet around. Ah, a polack,

1:08:41

just and honorable gentleman stand guy

1:08:43

kind of shot like. Everything about

1:08:46

him is perfect and. That.

1:08:48

Sucks set it because this is I

1:08:50

don't want imperfect characters with dude. And

1:08:53

then also. I. Think that.

1:08:56

I don't think tank and sends us but. Historically.

1:08:59

Me thinking about menstruation and people who

1:09:02

men strains us kind of the stigma

1:09:04

and way that that fits into society

1:09:06

and historically and even currently. When women

1:09:09

are people are on their periods. oh

1:09:11

they're crazy their hysterical there in Spain

1:09:13

and all the words that get. Thrown

1:09:15

out around that I'm a a

1:09:17

lot of the misunderstandings around that

1:09:19

I think that is part of

1:09:21

this and it's like okay now

1:09:23

she's sort of. She. Gets

1:09:26

her period and now these powers

1:09:28

are amplified and become sort of

1:09:30

this tragic monster. Riot like I think

1:09:32

as we mentioned this earlier be monster

1:09:34

feminine. Now it's. Loosely. Immediacy

1:09:36

had these powers. From. Birth and

1:09:39

various capacities. But it's at this

1:09:41

point that Sheath fully makes that

1:09:43

transformation, and I do think that

1:09:45

that's. A. Little Lake Men or know

1:09:47

if I like that from a feminist perspective,

1:09:49

but I don't think that's what he meant.

1:09:51

So yeah, I always to get

1:09:54

more so as the trauma. That.

1:09:56

triggers it and of course yes

1:09:58

at starting your period, your hormones

1:10:01

end up going into overdrive, so

1:10:03

that's going to affect your genetics

1:10:07

full stop. But it was

1:10:09

the trauma because she literally does not

1:10:11

know what's happening. Can you imagine that

1:10:13

would be terrifying? And I hate it

1:10:15

because you know that there's girls right now

1:10:18

in certain places that I'm not going to

1:10:21

talk about that don't have any idea. Yeah.

1:10:23

And aren't. That's horrifying. People

1:10:25

are working to make sure that they

1:10:27

don't learn, which is so terrifying

1:10:31

to think about. I have a friend

1:10:33

who was at Catholic school and her sex ed would

1:10:36

tell them about sperm

1:10:38

and eggs, but they were always taking place

1:10:40

in a nameless void. So she grew up

1:10:43

thinking that like sperm were like the size

1:10:45

of a dog. Like there was just no

1:10:47

like context. Where is

1:10:50

this happening? And like what's the scale? Oh

1:10:53

my gosh. I have it right

1:10:55

for you. You're in

1:10:58

inner space or something. And

1:11:00

it's like where does it

1:11:02

come out? Like how does it get produced? How's

1:11:05

it getting inside me? Oh my God.

1:11:07

Yeah. I do like Dennis Quaid

1:11:09

in the inner space. But

1:11:12

yeah, there is and that might be kind of, I

1:11:14

don't know if I want to say it's a

1:11:16

drawback of King being a writer of the moment,

1:11:18

but like it's an element of

1:11:20

it because what I think is really strong

1:11:23

about King and what I find

1:11:25

like in his books that push my

1:11:28

understanding of the world forward and that I

1:11:30

think pushes the genre forward is his like

1:11:33

exploration of characters and reality and

1:11:35

like internal monologue that we don't

1:11:37

see very much. And just even

1:11:39

in this book talking about menstruation,

1:11:41

like, but I also think I

1:11:43

kind of agree with you Mel, like there's an

1:11:45

element of like, there's a

1:11:48

glass house of experience that he

1:11:50

can't really see out of. I

1:11:52

don't think he's a particularly forward

1:11:54

thinking novelist, you know, and

1:11:57

I don't necessarily think he needs to

1:11:59

be. He, what he does, he does

1:12:01

very well. But I think, you know, and we

1:12:04

also only have women menstruating and

1:12:06

it's just, it's not what

1:12:09

this story being told right now, I think

1:12:11

would be even if he wrote it, I

1:12:13

think he would write it differently now. I

1:12:16

think when I think about feminism,

1:12:18

the goals of feminism, again, I'm not going to

1:12:20

get my soapbox. I'm not going to

1:12:22

climb all the way to the top rung of my

1:12:24

soapbox, but it is one leg a little bit out.

1:12:27

I'm going to put a leg on there. Like the

1:12:29

goal of feminism is not women rule the world. You

1:12:31

know, we don't want, I do

1:12:33

want to make hierarchy, but like, that's not ultimately

1:12:35

the goal. We don't want to rule everything. We

1:12:38

just want to be treated like

1:12:40

everybody else gets to be treated. We want to be

1:12:42

as important as the male characters.

1:12:44

And that's what I think is feminist

1:12:47

about this is that his

1:12:49

female characters are real. They have complex

1:12:51

lives. Some of them are good. Some

1:12:53

of them are bad. I just finished

1:12:55

reading unlikable female characters by Anna Boguskaya.

1:12:57

And I just can't stop thinking about

1:12:59

like, she's talking about how these women,

1:13:01

they're just allowed to be bad. They're

1:13:03

allowed to be bitches. They don't have

1:13:05

to have a reason for it. We're

1:13:08

going to talk a lot about Chris Hargensing because

1:13:10

I think she is really interesting. But I just,

1:13:12

I really love that we have all of these

1:13:15

characters that can't really be placed in a

1:13:17

box, you know, and that is what I

1:13:19

find to be feminist about

1:13:21

this novel. But I also bring a lot

1:13:23

of myself to this. And so I think

1:13:25

it's a novel that can be feminist if

1:13:28

you want it to be, you know. Yeah.

1:13:31

I think that's one of the laziest

1:13:34

criticisms of shows like Girls, for example,

1:13:36

where they're like, they're so unlikable. And

1:13:38

I'm like, and there's so

1:13:40

many unlikable people in this world. I

1:13:42

know men are unlikable. And of them,

1:13:44

yeah, we've made so

1:13:46

many movies and TV shows about unlikable

1:13:48

men. And God, let

1:13:50

us have these four horrible women

1:13:53

that I can watch every week. Yeah.

1:13:56

Well, yeah. And like, I'm, I've

1:13:58

been horrible. I've been horrible. I'm

1:14:00

a nightmare. We all self-identify as

1:14:02

bitches. That doesn't define

1:14:05

us, just like those

1:14:08

characters. It's

1:14:10

like, yeah, they're unlikable, but

1:14:12

that unlikable part of me relates to

1:14:14

that. Exactly. Yeah, it feels nice

1:14:16

to be able to be unlikable a little bit, if

1:14:18

I want to. We've also been an age where we

1:14:21

were unlikable. I

1:14:23

look back at like, you know, 21, 22,

1:14:25

and I'm like, how did I have a

1:14:27

friend? Like, how did anyone, how did I

1:14:29

date? Like, how did my parents

1:14:31

talk to me? Like, who loved me and why?

1:14:33

Oh my God, I was a nightmare in high

1:14:35

school. Nightmare. Nightmare. Oh,

1:14:37

totally. Totally. You don't want to know

1:14:40

me anymore. Me too. Yeah. Well,

1:14:42

let's talk about definitions in

1:14:44

our next category structure. Look

1:14:47

at me. Look

1:15:01

at me, teacher.

1:15:08

Okay. So, Mila, I kind of want

1:15:10

to lean on you a little bit.

1:15:12

I have called this semi-epistolary. I don't

1:15:14

know if that's true or not, but

1:15:16

what I found from Bev Vincent, Stephen

1:15:18

King, a complete exploration of his work,

1:15:20

life, and influences. The first

1:15:22

draft was less than a hundred pages, too

1:15:24

long to be published in his usual short

1:15:26

story markets and too short for a novel.

1:15:29

Still unable to come up with new story ideas,

1:15:31

King decided to expand it by adding fake

1:15:34

news articles and new scenes. He finished revising

1:15:36

the manuscript, ending up with a short novel,

1:15:38

but he had too little

1:15:40

faith in it and was so dejected by

1:15:42

his near misses with double day, he decided

1:15:44

not to send it to Thompson. There

1:15:47

didn't seem to be much of a

1:15:49

market for horror novels at the time.

1:15:52

However, Thompson, who is his publisher, later

1:15:54

sent King a country music calendar to

1:15:56

reestablish contact, which encouraged King to submit

1:15:58

Carrie. The one-zero-year-old, I will give to

1:16:01

country music as I am. As

1:16:03

a national native, I am not a fan. But

1:16:06

so this is, you know, we

1:16:08

have it intercut with like, you

1:16:10

know, third person narrative, stream

1:16:13

of consciousness writing. We also have

1:16:15

news clippings and we have like

1:16:17

interview scenes. Mel, am

1:16:19

I correct in calling it semi epistolary?

1:16:22

I like that you've invented that term. Did

1:16:24

I invent it sweet? Oh, I don't know.

1:16:27

I've never heard it before, but it could be

1:16:29

very real. I, yes,

1:16:31

because an epistolary novel is just

1:16:33

is just made up of snippets

1:16:35

of writing from various in

1:16:38

world sources. So newspaper clippings,

1:16:40

diaries, tickets, logs,

1:16:44

even in Dracula, there

1:16:46

are phonographic transcribed like

1:16:48

audio records. But

1:16:50

this is your thing, Jen mixes that all up

1:16:52

with third person roving point

1:16:54

of view narrative, which I do

1:16:56

think we are meant to perceive

1:16:59

as, quote unquote, the

1:17:01

truth. And it

1:17:03

does often conflict with the presented truth

1:17:05

of some of the epistolary items. What

1:17:08

I really like about how

1:17:10

the epistolary I first

1:17:12

of all, I'm staggered to learn that it was

1:17:15

a late ad, like it seems so cohesive

1:17:18

and integral to the book that that's

1:17:21

that's amazing. I

1:17:24

love what King does with it here. I love

1:17:26

that we start with a news item. But

1:17:29

the next piece of evidence, so

1:17:31

to speak, is the reference to

1:17:33

a death etching that just says Carrie

1:17:35

White eats shit. So

1:17:37

already, we're I think we're sort of disrupting

1:17:40

the traditional epistolary.

1:17:43

We're incorporating both professional and personal

1:17:45

or intimate writings in

1:17:48

new ways. And I think he

1:17:50

uses these epistolary interludes at first for

1:17:52

a lot of foreshadowing rather than

1:17:54

a ton of linear development, alla

1:17:56

Dracula. So they're adding flavor, they're

1:17:58

filling out the world, they're moving things forward, but

1:18:00

they're also doing a ton of lifting in

1:18:03

terms of generating suspense. We get

1:18:05

these quotes like a one of Susan

1:18:07

El surviving classmates, you know, and you're

1:18:09

just, you're just so like, locked

1:18:11

in at that point. We're

1:18:13

also jumping back and forward in time

1:18:16

way more whiplashy,

1:18:18

but in the beginning, we're just

1:18:20

making longer jumps from

1:18:23

the inciting moments of the plot to the

1:18:25

writing of the aftermath. But

1:18:27

by the end of the book, the

1:18:29

epistolary elements are coalescing, everything's gathering around

1:18:32

the sort of nucleus of the event

1:18:34

of prom night. So that reportage is

1:18:36

directly proceeding or following the present

1:18:38

narration. So it's no longer generating

1:18:41

suspense, it's fulfilling a very different

1:18:43

function, not so much suspense,

1:18:45

but I would say more commentary, again,

1:18:48

getting into that hover up angle, showing

1:18:50

us how the world would probably process things

1:18:52

framed against how they actually happened. So

1:18:55

I think it's almost as if the epistolary structure

1:18:58

functions first as added truth as

1:19:00

like elucidation, and then it becomes

1:19:02

something that starts to muddy the waters and

1:19:04

that speaks to the cover up that's happening. And

1:19:07

so it starts to map up with

1:19:10

the sort of cycle of again, like repression

1:19:12

and explosion and truth that I was talking

1:19:15

about earlier. And I just I love how

1:19:18

it is really just

1:19:21

one to one with those themes of the novel

1:19:23

in its own structure. Yeah, yeah.

1:19:26

And I feel like it adds impact to you know,

1:19:28

I think about like, one of

1:19:30

my favorite pieces of the horror

1:19:32

genre is like what I think of as

1:19:34

the oh shit moment, you know, like when

1:19:36

we when the world perceives the horror too,

1:19:39

you know, and the thing, I don't

1:19:41

know if this quite lines up, but

1:19:43

it's the emotion of Final Destination when

1:19:45

Alex has been telling everyone the plane's

1:19:47

gonna explode, and then the plane actually

1:19:49

explodes. It's one of my favorite moments

1:19:52

in any horror movie ever. And I

1:19:54

feel like this is such an intimate

1:19:56

novel, you know, that all of those

1:19:58

little interludes when we see the world reacting

1:20:00

to all of this too. We know

1:20:02

that this is a worldwide phenomenon that

1:20:04

has been talked about in Life magazine.

1:20:06

They have like a commission like, and

1:20:08

you know, I'm sure in the 70s

1:20:10

you were reading that hearing Watergate, you

1:20:12

know, those kinds of investigations, like it

1:20:14

just gives it more weight too. And

1:20:16

it shows you, yes, this is about

1:20:18

a girl who's going home and she's

1:20:20

taking off layer upon layer of her

1:20:22

clothes, but also what

1:20:24

she does affects the rest of the world,

1:20:27

which I think it just gives me chills,

1:20:29

you know. It's also

1:20:31

just fun lore and world building.

1:20:33

Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. And

1:20:35

it's also an incredibly deft

1:20:37

maneuver around including chapters. There's

1:20:40

no chapters. You just

1:20:42

segue from scene to bit

1:20:45

of writing. There's three parts. The last part is

1:20:47

like so much shorter than the other two. And

1:20:50

he's just ping ponging with abandon.

1:20:52

There's actually no separation

1:20:55

except for white space between narration

1:20:57

and epistolary stuff. I'd have to

1:20:59

actually look and see if narration

1:21:01

ever abuts narration. Yeah, it does.

1:21:03

So sometimes he does like, oh,

1:21:06

maybe it doesn't. I don't know. Sometimes there are little dividers.

1:21:09

I would, I would like to know if it's, if it's

1:21:11

always every other, but that seems

1:21:13

to be a little bit, and I think

1:21:15

he switches around like the prospectus too. Like

1:21:17

there are moments where I think it's Carrie

1:21:19

and then it's Sue, you know, Tommy

1:21:22

at the prom, you know. It does

1:21:24

color, like I like this. And I think somebody

1:21:27

pointed out in the original, the OG

1:21:30

Carrie episode way back when pointed out, it's

1:21:32

like it adds weight to all these characters because

1:21:34

we know so early on, who

1:21:37

like most of them, who's going to die. Yeah.

1:21:39

And so when they're in the story, it's kind

1:21:42

of coloring how we're looking at, we're looking at

1:21:44

them through a different lens, knowing like, oh, you're

1:21:46

dead. And so it makes those

1:21:48

moments, like there's a line where he said like, oh, and

1:21:50

you know, Tommy had less than two hours to live. And

1:21:52

like that, like it

1:21:55

does, it helps build suspense and tension so much

1:21:57

in the way that he's able to ramp it

1:21:59

up. That you were saying Malik

1:22:01

Howitzer The. The. Segments start to

1:22:03

get closer to the actual time period he

1:22:05

has happening. It. Is

1:22:08

more effective. I. Don't know

1:22:10

than I would think it would be like in

1:22:12

in theory I would think that it would annoy

1:22:15

me like if I'm flipping through this and haven't

1:22:17

actually read it. but in practice in execution I

1:22:19

actually think it. It. Had

1:22:22

so much momentum for the story rather

1:22:24

than just. Having. A straightforward. You

1:22:27

know, narrative telling? All the way through. Yeah.

1:22:30

He I wanted it for

1:22:32

the fiftieth anniversary celebration of

1:22:34

Carry. And. I didn't get it. So.

1:22:36

I guess I'm just gonna have to do

1:22:38

it. I'm. I'm not, I didn't

1:22:41

brothers up on a pass episode I.

1:22:43

We thought the coolest way to package

1:22:45

this novel would be something like he

1:22:47

there's no and S Ship of D

1:22:49

C A says. He

1:22:52

was the book that Jj

1:22:54

Abrams produced. I'm and

1:22:56

essentially it's not. It's a novel,

1:22:58

it's a book. But.

1:23:00

Some of it is written

1:23:03

like in the urban. On

1:23:05

the sides of the pages there

1:23:07

are like postcards put in between

1:23:10

certain pages there are like photograph

1:23:12

Sarah, this, their that and I

1:23:14

just thought like. It's

1:23:17

the novel was written straight through like

1:23:19

a journal or a diary, and then

1:23:21

the newspaper articles. the interviews, the scientific

1:23:23

literature, and the excerpts from the books

1:23:26

were placed inside between the appropriate pages.

1:23:28

And we're in a day and age

1:23:30

now where you could throw in a

1:23:32

Qr code that you can scan and

1:23:35

watch like news footage. it's filmed for

1:23:37

the book or like a ted talk

1:23:39

until I can he says and it

1:23:41

would almost feel like someone's has. It

1:23:43

does feel like someone's compiling the information

1:23:46

for this book. And I

1:23:48

thought that was such a cool

1:23:50

way to a as almost like

1:23:52

a case study to package this

1:23:54

for a sixtieth anniversary. Careful

1:23:57

Careful Ashley A Now on the

1:23:59

and. I'm gonna. Be drafted gonna

1:24:01

train my liver and yes yes I

1:24:04

am Gmt M. And. Like

1:24:06

every single. I guess because it was

1:24:08

like the cover was eliminated and they put like

1:24:10

blood a liquid in there. And

1:24:13

I mean I ended up and. Down

1:24:16

The I mean that To Die We

1:24:18

I'm I'm on board for that. We

1:24:20

have the curse of the Blair Witch you

1:24:22

know that goes along with like I want

1:24:25

that are the diary of Lm run bauer

1:24:27

with and as different saying but like I

1:24:29

want to convey any idea is that gives

1:24:31

us gets more although I would I say

1:24:33

he has a man blesses more and you

1:24:35

know take one piece of writing off before

1:24:37

you leave the house like it as kind

1:24:40

of feel like it works perfectly here. Yeah.

1:24:42

Are there any other voices that don't

1:24:45

work for us? Like.

1:24:47

The news boys are like the interviews are

1:24:49

there any that we don't sign. Believable,

1:24:54

I do think that his dialogue in

1:24:56

some of the. News items like

1:24:58

the one with the woman from California. ah

1:25:00

like I just like season pass. She's not

1:25:02

talking like a normal woman talks and it

1:25:04

it you could just like if. You

1:25:07

know I'm attributed to journalistic license

1:25:09

or whatever but I think he

1:25:12

was this having like who have

1:25:14

fun with those segments and they

1:25:16

I'm. Say. Sort of become. They

1:25:18

get really kind of wrapped up in this

1:25:20

in this saw. like she tells the story

1:25:22

about the man, that he's the drunk man's

1:25:24

he saw with a little girl and I

1:25:26

got my favorite parts of Birth of the

1:25:28

Book. But it is. You sort of forget

1:25:30

that you're supposedly in a circle, a sick

1:25:32

article. What any of us like? oh wait,

1:25:34

where I'm up. I'm so that that's that's

1:25:37

it is interesting but I'm I don't have

1:25:39

any like big problems with any of it.

1:25:41

I guess. Well. As

1:25:43

someone who taught to but three times

1:25:45

as or anything else about the structure

1:25:47

of it, the format of it that

1:25:49

you want to mention or shout out

1:25:51

or the find particularly interesting. thing

1:25:54

so i love a third person roving point of

1:25:56

view which we've already touched on were not

1:25:58

would carry and so pitched And I think

1:26:00

it's such a smart choice to have

1:26:04

us feel the mix of

1:26:06

pity and resentment and discuss that people

1:26:08

feel for her before we hop into

1:26:11

her, just to even place us

1:26:15

right in that, what's the word I'm

1:26:17

looking for, like complicit, complicitness, like that

1:26:19

feeling of complicity. And

1:26:22

I just love that we get to experience so

1:26:24

many people, including Miss

1:26:27

Jardinera and Sue and Chris

1:26:30

and Billy even. I

1:26:35

think getting into Billy is like such

1:26:37

a treat by the end, even though

1:26:39

he's very scary. Wow. Classic

1:26:42

King Bully, see? Yeah. It is, I

1:26:44

know. I know. Even

1:26:47

the adults, like the vice, or the

1:26:49

principal and the assistant principal, like ever.

1:26:52

Yeah. Yeah. I

1:26:54

was listening to that first episode and I was

1:26:56

like, oh, it's the first Bauer hour when they

1:26:58

started talking about Billy Nolan. It was like, King

1:27:01

bullies. All right. Well,

1:27:03

let's talk about some of the bigger

1:27:06

themes in this in our next category,

1:27:08

the hook. Ah,

1:27:11

yes. Don't you

1:27:13

see? Don't you see how

1:27:15

clear it is? Not

1:27:17

only can you see the future. You

1:27:20

can change it. You

1:27:22

can change it. Exactly. All

1:27:24

right. So I think one of the

1:27:26

big hooks of this book is telekinesis. It's like, I

1:27:29

swear I loved Matilda growing up. It was one

1:27:32

of them. I read it over and over again.

1:27:34

This feels like grown up Matilda to me. You

1:27:36

know, I still, and I

1:27:38

think part of the reason I'm assessed with Firestarter,

1:27:40

like I am going to fucking find out how

1:27:42

to have telekinesis before I die. If it's the

1:27:44

last thing I do, I'm going to move something

1:27:46

within my mind. But that is,

1:27:49

I think, the money

1:27:51

hook here. That's like on the surface.

1:27:53

That's what makes Curie so powerful. Although

1:27:55

I will say sometimes I forget that

1:27:57

that's an element of the story in

1:27:59

the same that I forget that it is

1:28:01

about a clown because I think the heart of

1:28:03

that for me is the characters. But

1:28:06

Ashley, I wanted to ask you, what do we

1:28:10

think about King's depiction of

1:28:12

telekinesis? Why me? Just

1:28:15

kidding. It's actually some

1:28:17

of my favorite in fiction. You can tell

1:28:19

he's actually studied

1:28:22

cases of supposed psychokinetic

1:28:24

abilities and we know that he's

1:28:26

always been interested in things like

1:28:28

secret government programs that have tested

1:28:31

these types of things. And

1:28:34

I think I said this earlier, in Carrie,

1:28:36

we're essentially getting the

1:28:38

prequel to Firestarter and

1:28:41

the Institute. We see the

1:28:43

scientific writing on a case study of

1:28:45

a girl who exhibited powers that could

1:28:47

become a threat to national security, which

1:28:50

is exactly why the CIA

1:28:52

and the American government studied and continues

1:28:54

to study people who claim to have

1:28:58

or have been witnessed having

1:29:00

the ability to move or change objects with

1:29:02

the power of their minds or

1:29:04

remote view is a big one, which

1:29:06

is where you can essentially see something or

1:29:08

someplace from somewhere in your mind. And

1:29:12

one detail that I really appreciate and carry,

1:29:14

and I don't even know

1:29:16

if he did this on purpose because

1:29:18

this is stuff that has

1:29:21

come out in declassified documents that weren't

1:29:23

declassified at the time. So it's like,

1:29:25

how would he know? And

1:29:28

I don't see a lot of other fictional universes where

1:29:30

in telekinesis that exists doing

1:29:32

this, but it's the fact

1:29:35

that other weird shit happens around her too.

1:29:38

The rocks that rain from the sky,

1:29:40

the way people are affected by her,

1:29:42

like Tommy gets vertigo a few times

1:29:44

when he's around her. Sue

1:29:47

Snell has visions almost

1:29:49

on the night of prom, the

1:29:52

whole town being able to feel that

1:29:54

it's Carrie White, even though they don't

1:29:56

know that it's Carrie White. Yeah,

1:30:00

I'd like in their heads. And

1:30:02

one other things As reported, the

1:30:05

most often during these experiments is

1:30:07

the amount of weirdness that takes

1:30:09

place surrounding them. So for example,

1:30:12

when the Cia was conducting tests

1:30:14

with like Uri Geller outside of

1:30:17

the testing like just in the

1:30:19

general like labs, they experienced power

1:30:21

failures, equipment malfunction, magnetic tape would

1:30:24

become the magnetized watches would stop

1:30:26

working completely separate from like what

1:30:28

was going on. When they

1:30:31

were testing with him and that

1:30:33

it when the Institute of Experimental

1:30:35

Medicine of the Academy of Science

1:30:37

was experimenting with remote viewing and

1:30:39

time travel in Russia. in the

1:30:42

nineties you Athos were spotted all

1:30:44

over Siberia and scientists less to

1:30:46

the program because they would go

1:30:48

home at night after work and

1:30:51

have paranormal experiences in their own

1:30:53

homes. And it's hard

1:30:55

to say. Whether

1:30:58

this phenomenon is. Something.

1:31:00

That's physically happening. Or something that is.

1:31:03

Like. Almost emotionally internally happening.

1:31:06

And him. To.

1:31:08

These people when they're they're. You.

1:31:11

Know. Messing. Around with is

1:31:13

kind of weird shit but for

1:31:15

the most part. At

1:31:18

least from what we can tell from what's

1:31:20

been declassified, no one's ever been able to

1:31:22

like throw something across the room with their

1:31:24

minds sorry Jan or not there yet not

1:31:27

yet known as it. Is. But.

1:31:29

It is cool the Stanford Research

1:31:32

Institute, along with the Cia. A

1:31:34

conclusion is that they have observed

1:31:36

certain phenomena for which they have

1:31:38

no scientific explanation. They've had people

1:31:40

be able to tell them what

1:31:42

they're holding in their hands over

1:31:45

the phone like very specific objects.

1:31:47

They been able to draw pictures

1:31:49

at that exact same thing other

1:31:51

people were drawing pictures of in

1:31:53

another building, and Uri Geller was

1:31:55

once asked to to deflect a

1:31:58

laser beam and not one. did

1:32:00

he do it, but the

1:32:02

machine that they used to produce

1:32:04

the laser never worked again because

1:32:06

the inner technological workings of it,

1:32:08

like the inner computer was fried

1:32:11

when they were done. And these

1:32:14

abilities were so extraordinary. The CIA authorized a

1:32:16

$20 million program called

1:32:19

Stargate to study it. And

1:32:22

that's just like what was going on in

1:32:24

America. Shit was going on in Russia. All

1:32:26

sorts of countries have different tests

1:32:30

and studies on these abilities. But

1:32:33

what we're seeing now today

1:32:36

is that there are brain computer

1:32:38

interfaces, they call them BCIs, and

1:32:41

they're 100% doable. It's actual science. We're

1:32:43

putting it to work. People are able

1:32:46

to control computers. You've seen people who

1:32:48

are essentially vegetables. They can

1:32:50

play chess with

1:32:52

their brain and a

1:32:54

computer. We see people that are

1:32:57

able to operate robotic limbs

1:33:01

using their mind and

1:33:03

the electromagnetic forces in their brain.

1:33:06

And even in 2014, there was

1:33:08

a study that proved a person

1:33:13

could use their brains to control a small

1:33:15

drone and they were able to do it

1:33:17

so well they could navigate an obstacle course.

1:33:20

That's telekinesis. That's

1:33:23

all that is. It's just, you

1:33:25

know, there's almost like a computer

1:33:27

go-between to get

1:33:30

our brains to be able to do this.

1:33:32

So having that ability or being able to

1:33:34

harness and use that energy without that go-between

1:33:36

is improbable, but

1:33:38

it's not impossible. So

1:33:41

he actually, especially

1:33:43

with the light bulbs exploding,

1:33:45

the mirrors that would vibrate

1:33:48

and shatter, and

1:33:50

the power

1:33:52

lines that would pop

1:33:54

and burst and electrocute people, he was

1:33:57

right on the money. And it's stuff

1:33:59

that like... you know,

1:34:01

when Carrie stops her mother's heart

1:34:03

beating. That was

1:34:05

an experiment right out of Russia

1:34:08

that was happening in 1972 that

1:34:10

didn't get declassified till 1990. So

1:34:13

it's like, Stephen, how did you know? I

1:34:17

think he might have a little bit of the

1:34:19

shine himself, you guys, like I'm being like,

1:34:22

desert. He's got the shine or he's got

1:34:24

the hookup. I mean, or he's got the

1:34:26

secret government. So like reading this and

1:34:28

thinking about, like there's

1:34:30

so many like names specifically and

1:34:32

things like, things that are not

1:34:35

really that important, but it's like,

1:34:37

oh, there's, that's okay. Chris's real

1:34:39

name is Christine, okay. Like little

1:34:41

things like that, that is going

1:34:43

to be in other books, like later down

1:34:45

the road and other little nuggets where it's like,

1:34:47

I don't know, man. I think

1:34:50

he's got something and he's just picking up these

1:34:52

things and he can like see into the future.

1:34:54

And he's just like dropping little hints and he

1:34:56

doesn't even know he's dropping them. Is it from

1:34:58

the beam or the tower? Well,

1:35:01

there's a really, I don't know if he ever

1:35:03

uses this term, but in the woo-woo community, we

1:35:05

use it a lot. There's a theory called

1:35:08

the collective consciousness where our

1:35:11

consciousness is actually not internal. It's actually

1:35:13

external outside of our body. It's something

1:35:15

that's sort of like being projected into

1:35:17

our body from one source. There

1:35:19

are weird things where like people didn't show

1:35:21

up on a day. They just like had

1:35:23

a bad feeling. You know what I mean?

1:35:26

And it's attributed to this like collective consciousness,

1:35:28

which I always think of when I go back to

1:35:30

like Stephen King, because he always does kind of seem

1:35:33

to be right on the money in situations where it's

1:35:35

like, how did you know? Or

1:35:37

how did you predict? Or how did you, were

1:35:40

you just, it's, you know, the Simpsons,

1:35:42

how they're always like, right? Is it

1:35:44

just that you have so many really

1:35:46

like intelligent comedy writers? Or

1:35:49

do you just know something we don't? Yeah. I

1:35:51

like some of it too relates to

1:35:54

how he talks about writing this is the

1:35:57

type of preciousness I really don't go

1:35:59

for. all honesty about writing. Like when

1:36:01

he talks about like, I'm not creating ideas,

1:36:03

I'm just under things fossils. Like

1:36:05

I'm finding the thing and I'm, I'm

1:36:07

doing and I'm always like, okay, like, let's have

1:36:09

a little agency here, Steven, like you're a

1:36:11

very talented man. And, but I do

1:36:13

think something about the writing mind has

1:36:16

that subterranean aspect to it. So when

1:36:18

we're talking about the repeating names and

1:36:20

like the all

1:36:23

of the connections throughout his books, like, it

1:36:25

seems like there's just like a big

1:36:27

collective pool just like inside him, like

1:36:29

all of his like worlds

1:36:32

and he can, you

1:36:34

know, I feel that when I'm writing to you just sort of

1:36:36

dip into this thing that is

1:36:38

abstract and that you couldn't really quantify

1:36:41

or articulate. I don't, I still

1:36:43

think it's coming from me. Like, I

1:36:45

think it's coming from the person, but

1:36:47

it has, it has a very mystical

1:36:50

quality to it. Yeah. Yeah.

1:36:52

And I think, you know, I was thinking

1:36:54

about that too, like the uncovering a fossil.

1:36:56

And I was also thinking, I can't remember

1:36:58

where this came from. It

1:37:00

could be bag of bones. It could be misery, or

1:37:02

it could be Lise's story. Those are the ones that

1:37:04

are pinging, but he's talking about ideas

1:37:06

as coming from like a well, you know, and

1:37:08

like, you kind of, some people are able to

1:37:11

dip a straw into that well and pull water

1:37:13

from it. And I think

1:37:15

you're right. I think there's an element

1:37:17

of like, is it nature or nurture,

1:37:19

you know, did the writer create the

1:37:22

idea or did the idea spark the

1:37:24

writers, you know, sensibilities? But I think

1:37:26

he just, he is

1:37:28

able to access that well, extremely

1:37:31

well. Wow. I think this is

1:37:33

a part of just like human

1:37:36

experience because it, you know,

1:37:39

in ancient Greece, they talked about the muses,

1:37:41

because that's what it felt like. It

1:37:43

didn't feel like inspiration felt like it

1:37:45

was coming from outside because it hits

1:37:47

sometimes so hard that you're like, that

1:37:50

couldn't have come from me. Like that

1:37:52

came out of nowhere. Have you guys

1:37:54

seen soul Pixar? Soul?

1:37:57

Do you know? And like, okay, so, uh, Well,

1:38:00

okay. I know what you're talking about though. Okay,

1:38:02

so yeah, there's like this thing where like when

1:38:04

you're in the zone, no matter

1:38:07

what your zone is, like if your zone

1:38:09

is tennis, if your zone is writing, if

1:38:11

your zone, it's almost like you go to

1:38:13

this other place where you can access something

1:38:16

that you maybe couldn't when you're, you

1:38:19

know, in your day to day when you're

1:38:21

on earth. Yeah, and that's kind

1:38:23

of what I imagine the well is, is

1:38:25

just like when I'm in the zone, I

1:38:28

can dip into the well and just grab

1:38:30

things so easy as opposed to those times

1:38:32

where you have riders block or you're banging

1:38:35

your head against the wall because you can't get

1:38:37

something. If you could just distract yourself enough to

1:38:40

get to the well. Yeah,

1:38:43

I do like how he depicts

1:38:46

telekinesis for Carrie specifically, like how it's

1:38:48

like a muscle and she's like flexing

1:38:50

it. Yeah, like practicing and like, it's

1:38:52

like once you learn how to use

1:38:54

it and like getting stronger. And she's

1:38:56

like working out, you know, a little bit

1:38:59

we fear she's like at home, like lifting a sewing

1:39:01

machine up and down and how much

1:39:03

she's enjoying it. Yeah. And

1:39:06

just kind of like quickly realizes like, okay,

1:39:08

I can do this. And if I work

1:39:10

at this, like I can become unstoppable.

1:39:13

Like I think that that's pretty cool how

1:39:15

she's using it. And also how like,

1:39:18

yeah, other people are able to she's able to

1:39:20

get in their minds a little bit and vice

1:39:22

versa. That's kind of interesting, especially

1:39:25

I mean, I think it's crucial at the end

1:39:27

because it helps. I

1:39:29

always forget about that aspect of this

1:39:31

book. And it's like my favorite part

1:39:33

of the book when she starts to

1:39:35

envelop the whole town with her consciousness.

1:39:37

And yeah, I don't know why every

1:39:39

time I'm newly joyous

1:39:42

when I encounter the creeping the

1:39:44

creeping nature of like

1:39:46

her mind over over all the

1:39:49

other people that she's affecting. Yeah,

1:39:51

and I like that there's a cost to it

1:39:53

too. Like she does not become like Wonder

1:39:56

Woman or like a superhero, you know,

1:39:58

she like it. does tax her body

1:40:01

and she does end up, I mean, I know

1:40:03

she gets stabbed by her mother, but like the

1:40:05

sense you get is that she works herself to

1:40:07

death, destroying everything.

1:40:09

And I like that aspect of it

1:40:12

also. Let's

1:40:15

talk about maybe my favorite part of