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1:20

Hi, I'm Katie Rassell and this is The

1:23

Media Show from BBC Radio 4. Hello.

1:25

Today we're thinking about the impact

1:27

big tech can have on democracy.

1:30

And we're drilling into whether here in

1:32

the UK we're experiencing our first TikTok

1:34

election as the parties scramble to

1:36

get their messages to go viral on the platform.

1:39

We've got some seriously big brains to

1:41

help out. Tamandra Harkness has a new

1:44

book exploring our relationship with technology. Shona

1:46

Gosh is a senior editor at Bloomberg and

1:49

Martha Lane Fox is a UK tech pioneer,

1:51

co-founder of lastminute.com and

1:54

now a crossbench peer and president of the

1:56

British Chamber of Commerce. Welcome to you all

1:58

and welcome Martha. impressive CV.

2:00

I mean it's very bad for CV

2:03

because you can never distill it into

2:05

a sentence as a party. Well I've

2:07

tried yes. You've been in tech for

2:09

25 years or more. When you were

2:11

starting out with lastminute.com I mean presumably

2:14

back then people laughed at the idea

2:16

that we might be buying. Yeah

2:18

and we spent a lot of time

2:21

convincing people the internet wasn't going to blow up

2:23

quite literally. So all the investors that we sent

2:25

our business plan through in late 1997, early

2:28

1998 said no. Every single

2:30

one. We only got in front of one

2:32

because of a fluke of some weird bit

2:34

of re-routing by the postal service and

2:37

they said no. So it was quite a long stretch to

2:39

even get the cash and it wasn't that people

2:41

didn't think lastminute.com was going to work. They didn't

2:44

definitely think that was going to happen. They thought

2:46

the internet was really unlikely to make it. And

2:48

instead you became not just incredibly successful and it

2:50

was a very successful company but also a huge,

2:53

I mean a media celebrity I would

2:55

say. I remember you being in the media

2:57

a lot and as we are the media

2:59

show I'm always interested in what that experience

3:01

was like to be suddenly the focus of

3:03

so much more retention. Sounds naive now but

3:05

I was 25 and

3:07

I think when I look back on it

3:10

I just kind of bumbled around being excited

3:12

about our business and the possibilities of entrepreneurship

3:14

happening in places that were different and people

3:17

like me would start businesses rather than what

3:19

had been traditionally older white men. So I

3:22

now look back and I think wow I was

3:24

so naive. I don't you know in any way

3:27

begrudge all the attention we got because it really

3:29

helped build the brand but Brent was my co-founder

3:31

in the business. It was his idea. He got

3:33

cut out of photographs and it was as though

3:36

I was the one that was somehow storming ahead

3:38

with the e-commerce revolution. Why was that do you

3:40

think? I take a while I mean that's as

3:42

a 25 year old woman not the 51 year

3:44

old Haggadah now but I think that it

3:47

was still very unusual and there was just a

3:49

deep misogyny. Right interesting. We were going to

3:51

talk much more about that the culture of Silicon Valley

3:53

the culture of tech here the impact it has on

3:56

the rest of us later but we're going to start

3:58

with the UK and UK let's coverage

4:00

because Roshi Sunak's damp outing at the

4:02

Downing Street lectern happened soon after we

4:04

came off air a little early last

4:07

Wednesday as we head towards the

4:09

end of the first full week of campaigning there

4:11

were lots of media angles to discuss with Katie

4:13

Balls welcome political editor of the spectator who's with

4:15

us but first I just wanted to see whether

4:17

we can reach Jessica Elgood she's the deputy political

4:20

editor at the Guardian and I think Jessica if

4:22

I'm right you're on a bus and you're going

4:24

to be able to talk to us a campaign

4:26

bus is am I right are you there yeah

4:30

that's right you hear me right I can yeah

4:32

I think you're on the Labour bus where are

4:34

you and also kind of I guess how stage

4:37

managed is a journalist day on on a campaign

4:39

bus it's incredibly stage managed

4:41

it's a bit like being on a school trip you

4:43

actually sort of got to kind of file onto the

4:45

bus early in the morning and you then have a

4:48

register taken of who's on the bus and some comes

4:50

around and ask you what you want your lunch so

4:52

it's you know you're going round lots of these events

4:54

and I think especially with Labour

4:58

they are the ones who are really trying

5:00

to make sure nothing goes wrong because they're

5:02

the ones in the lead and so you

5:04

get you know very carefully curated events you

5:07

know in places where the party

5:09

is targeting and it's not am

5:11

I right you're not actually it's not actually the Labour

5:13

bus officially as yet or it's not the actual one

5:16

that they're going to be using the rest of the

5:18

campaign no they haven't launched

5:20

what they call the battle bus which are

5:22

those huge sort of branded like we assume

5:24

red buses that they will the

5:26

leader will be going on that I think you know those

5:28

are coming and that's the nature of the slash that election

5:31

they have to have them made eventually there'll

5:33

be a moment when that's all they

5:35

Thought that was November and it turned out not

5:37

to be really kissed on my around. Yeah, they

5:39

thought they had a bit more time than that

5:41

and it turned out they didn't I Mean you

5:43

know, clearly really important for all of us to

5:45

focus on policies rather than stunts. but there are

5:47

stunts along the way. There are you know moments

5:49

in the campaign where you where you see things

5:52

happen I Suppose that Davey the head leader of

5:54

the Liberal Democrats Paddle boarding yesterday and falling in

5:56

got quite a lot of coverage. Have you witnessed

5:58

so far any a kind of unusual. Though party

6:00

stance on your on your boss the

6:02

the politicians come on your boss or

6:04

they traveling with you. So

6:07

yesterday we had done for us president kind

6:09

of akin to stand up routine. I

6:12

was pretending with Will take us all on

6:14

national service and distributing so much stuff on

6:16

that Tory on the Tories policy. and I

6:18

mean at Whoop a lot. As an older

6:20

than eighteen say that said, I was quite

6:22

a straight at six had today, but I

6:24

know basically Keir Starmer has they were away

6:26

from any of those. They have the Me

6:28

Pete with hippie for the neighbors and they

6:30

don't want that kind of bacon sandwich might

6:32

add the admin and hadn't that a try

6:35

to Fifteen campaign. So we've seen him do

6:37

things that are very kind of. Standard.

6:39

By which is a standard you know

6:41

at big factories, a university earlier today

6:43

and support the kids into a couple

6:45

of football clubs and but it is

6:47

man made me been speech is beating

6:50

would raise Isis again. We've been talking

6:52

talking of bacon sandwiches. I saw some

6:54

pictures to die of the prime minister

6:56

really snacks lit to I mean ceding

6:58

the press pack this morning and Kumo

7:00

I think with bacon sandwiches are certainly

7:02

some kind of sound is he picked

7:04

up on journalistic principal When you have

7:06

to go hungry in that situation where

7:08

they all just start taking that taken

7:10

the sandwiches. Well I mean one

7:12

of the things that happens. I'm from Seattle

7:15

Forsythias that you that you don't get carried

7:17

a definite deck tied around three am you

7:19

know I think the best says that says

7:21

contributions that that people have to pay to

7:23

have to be. Pause it pause that. The

7:26

Butter Bus I know my son Connor how

7:28

expensive is it I'd either on it you

7:30

can set. Other thing I can say that

7:32

the I added on the other thing I

7:34

could site. Where we miles

7:37

cut us off as a hazy both got

7:39

some does I suspect a to can afford

7:41

the made with us and Canada Centre think

7:43

so it's it's costly for the spectators. The

7:45

weekends. He has been enough valued as far as

7:47

probably in a better way to phrase if I

7:49

boss isn't as high powered off. Well I'm Jessica.

7:51

I'm going to let you go off when

7:54

you're on your boss trip, continue having wider

7:56

identities it from. but I mean it continues.

7:58

Continue the hard work and you gotta. Get

8:00

your money's worth, a good luck and Katie

8:02

balls From your perspective I had no with

8:04

every early on Tabitha media coverage but it

8:06

it's they egg as as I just go

8:09

with saying labor's very good I'm worried about

8:11

mean a being in the lead and and

8:13

any gaps of have you know doesn't because

8:15

we the was he seen them admire at

8:17

a Davies I mention falling of a paddle

8:19

bowl was in which is it out photograph

8:22

by an exit signs and is it a

8:24

Ferrari around? That's what about Labour. Getting.

8:26

His destiny. Something in that I'm

8:29

probably sas less and. Properly covered

8:31

his twenties is dean than of the

8:33

same had quite a few since then

8:35

and moon you'd normally expect and. I

8:37

think so far sets and selection of

8:39

pot is just. Have saw Labour

8:41

has and any party there's in the

8:43

leader election campaign tends to be a

8:46

lot more cautious. Pats have a Ming

8:48

Vase strategy in are trying to carry

8:50

this across. a fool about anything going

8:52

wrong and as in particular even have

8:55

a lead over twenty points things the

8:57

time. At it more risk

8:59

of ass and also I think

9:01

it will see. Means that when

9:03

it comes to the Tories and

9:05

I think Russia and seems and

9:07

plenty of boss. Of their own accord

9:10

but they don't have much luck with them

9:12

right? Knife onto said because they are so

9:14

far behind Janice of really act to be

9:16

licking I think for anything that suggests you

9:18

know they are the Titanic level and going

9:20

to the Titanic shipyard seven presumably quite a

9:22

lot of positions as being filmed on planes

9:24

before next exit signs that may be framed

9:26

where the exes on isn't seen but now

9:29

it's in our feeding frenzy. Yeah I think

9:31

the exit sign on as on the. Xd

9:33

in as seeking some former campaign aides

9:35

and this issue. Various. Hotels

9:37

he had his launches you often try and cover.

9:39

lacks that science. Big news is real one or

9:41

one, but on planes shouldn't really allowed to d

9:44

that I think again, you don't get the benefit.

9:46

The diet when you're twenty points behind and sofa

9:48

you've had so many guests already. When I

9:50

want to talk about Election Night because

9:52

the Bbc this week confirmed as election

9:54

Night lineup described my rear lower kinda

9:57

bagged sharing presenting duties Sky had already

9:59

a now. Kay Burley and say

10:01

see wage to lead it's coverage. Channel

10:03

Four has Christening or Massey Emily Mate

10:05

less and eye catching late at. The

10:07

rest is politics were Easter and Alastair

10:10

Campbell again on T V said katie

10:12

What you think about pull causes becoming

10:14

pool glasses on Channel Four it is

10:16

that is that I catching. Is that

10:18

something different? You. Have you or someone

10:20

he does a couple of punk cos I'm

10:23

probably biased. the now I think ten. If.

10:25

You Think About Violence is really

10:27

politically engaged. Audiences are I think

10:30

Pocus audience. and more politically engaged

10:32

them your traditional brew pass to state

10:34

that type of television and therefore bring

10:36

the across A really popular per class

10:39

at the rest is politics use have

10:41

been nice agents I am I too

10:43

much as but hey to ones I

10:45

won't but I think to bring at

10:48

her legs and nice is potentially going

10:50

to bring you some viewers in who

10:52

perhaps don't tend to watch tv lies.

10:55

Are they tend to get the news of away

10:57

so I think it probably as if you think

10:59

about how as the election guess difference. I

11:02

think twenty a day translucency more

11:04

digital files think perhaps it is

11:06

I unit per week minutes heavily

11:08

podcast election we have so far.

11:11

some of the say saturated but is

11:13

t an appetite. For a lot of the stuff. And

11:15

the Bbc has a pot and yeah

11:17

had a problem to solve with the

11:19

absence of he redwoods it clearly that

11:21

guy was little wall more informal style

11:23

of do think that souls that he

11:25

had with problem of they succeeded with

11:28

this lineup. I think some

11:30

people don't like change, You know, just because. People.

11:32

Use to what they always have but of

11:34

course a god I mean resort seems like

11:36

a very respected for month list. That's B

11:39

B on I think live Marissa cost lots

11:41

of different platforms as had that I think

11:43

will be interesting to see across a different

11:45

programs. As the presenters of the see very

11:48

important says will say about him at a

11:50

gas and commentators. You're getting on and seen

11:52

it has some talking to deems the whole

11:54

race and the former cabinet minister think could

11:56

be on I T v you have Andy.

11:58

Burnham on the Sky. The average and

12:01

often those moments ago, really? viral.

12:03

Are actually when you have the politicians

12:05

in the room or the former policy

12:08

since he's at you they went a

12:10

result com sense have that money can't

12:12

buy moment that know of bro caustic

12:14

and debt because their new C D

12:16

S and I remember many from twenty

12:18

nineteen when needed as the right bad

12:20

results. Labor and seeing some the

12:22

interactions between cool that's cool then

12:24

type politicians and new labour and

12:26

I think that. Sports probably art scene and

12:28

hands of our coverage and election. I and I

12:30

live blog will be. Listen more to those moments

12:32

and template we're going to cover. I'm

12:34

so what are you doing on the not you

12:37

flitting between them a you just doing your own

12:39

stuff. I miss Guy goes for either. They said

12:41

that they are they gonna be taking over Roy

12:43

Keane Sport Studio. It's kind of stare they get

12:45

with guys. that kind of soccer Saturday that let

12:47

Delhi with illness and information and that sort of

12:49

your life was like simple results coming in Latin

12:51

all the sun sets. Hated Boardroom. Degas live blog

12:53

for the night and I think. Depending on

12:56

a technical techno like I say

12:58

that I'm ready. We're getting ready

13:00

by. well. Since heads of hadn't had capabilities

13:02

the other least one channel us on the big

13:04

screen probably the other than the things but I'm

13:06

i think will switch between them and to really

13:08

get to that flavor of s but will definitely

13:11

have different stuff the case channel so he can

13:13

get his videos and these lands on to live

13:15

blog a Sap a Muslim phones or do you

13:17

do on election night or you will watch sheriff

13:19

the election or any of these appealing t buttocks

13:22

is very strange not be able to vote to

13:24

take over to way when you become i'm in

13:26

that has since he will be less So it's

13:28

not that it takes your own personal stake in

13:30

it. Away but his grandson has a stake

13:32

in it. but it definitely changes somehow your

13:35

relationship to the like since I think I'm

13:37

just was reflecting on something ahead, I'm waiting

13:39

for com of his early this week that

13:41

into the some farmers about how they were

13:44

thinking of voting against the received in to

13:46

confirm as a somebody has and not one

13:48

single one of them is going to vote

13:50

or anything and that really struck me and

13:53

I know that that's his constituents within the

13:55

country that is not feel farmers but it

13:57

is. Really important to remember that

13:59

inciting. I mean the other thing

14:01

that is now been confirmed in terms of

14:03

elections. And T V all some leader

14:05

debates Rishi soon I can suggest armor going

14:08

to take part in. Their first head to

14:10

head of the election campaign next Tuesday on

14:12

I T v the Juliet seen him pasting

14:14

I'm Am and the back in twenty ten

14:16

when those first that was the first time

14:18

debate happen and the campaign was really defined

14:20

by their was the last in. I agree

14:22

with Nick and all the stuff that happens.

14:24

Katie Bells, How much do you think that

14:26

counts fourteen years on how much they must

14:28

have these days. Certainly. Are still

14:30

really impulse and I think they often

14:33

set the tone and I think when

14:35

it comes to the faster my began

14:37

and next week. Edict. Which

14:39

was have a leader com that the best

14:41

not will have momentum and guess you have

14:43

high being sick As and coos. I think

14:46

the more you know the more that younger

14:48

audiences and others thought to get the information

14:50

on different platforms digital platforms they become a

14:52

little bit less important in that sense but

14:55

he still set the tone and Westminster and

14:57

then at the ends in that then leads

14:59

to the print publications. As in some

15:01

the broadcast coverage so so. I. Think they

15:03

they will app tit a key role. I

15:05

just don't think they're going to be all

15:08

and end all in this. I'm and I

15:10

think that the Twenty Ten elections that late

15:12

the book authors have to sign seventy six

15:14

different rules to get this as the line

15:16

and everything from where the camera angles off

15:19

no caso as all of that they still

15:21

have do have to sign so many that

15:23

it can make the format quite formulaic. but

15:25

how did the party see them? But I

15:27

think the party's. Of the very

15:30

important beds hansen. Really on

15:32

where you are in the polls you can

15:34

always take out the political party if. You.

15:36

Are twenty points even ten points ahead?

15:38

in the polls? You are far more

15:41

suspicious of leaders' debate. And formal

15:43

skeptical of the need to have several. You

15:45

will probably take the view our one a

15:47

T will days if you were very far

15:49

behind in the polls and you want every

15:52

option season gaps you are the ones pushing.

15:54

Say it's funny that in a back in

15:56

twenty nineteen if is the conservatives. Boris Johnson's

15:58

team arguing against it. those debates.

16:00

Now the Conservatives are saying, oh,

16:03

Kistama, you wimp, why won't you

16:05

do these six debates, one a

16:07

week? And I think we

16:09

can explain that pretty much, I would say 99% through

16:12

the poll lead. Yeah, absolutely. Now

16:14

the USA, they've had these for 60 years,

16:16

but Gordon Brown was the first back in

16:18

2010 to agree to participate.

16:21

And actually, I think many leaders rather wish

16:23

he hadn't. But why back then did he

16:25

agree to it? Well, I think if you

16:27

looked at the polls in that election,

16:29

it probably goes back to the previous

16:31

point, which is, you know, I

16:34

think it's something about communicating with the public. I

16:36

also think if you feel as though you have

16:38

a different message in an election, you need to

16:41

be seen differently. That's where you want to get

16:43

to. And if you think of someone who's across

16:45

the detail, you tend to have an intrinsic view

16:47

that therefore you are going to shine in these

16:49

debates. The problem is you can know all the

16:51

detail, but it can be a very random moment

16:53

that no one saw coming. As much as people

16:55

agree to all the conditions, you can't agree every

16:58

single question. And often the viral

17:00

moment, if you think back to the

17:02

Tory leadership contest, Liz Truss versus Rishi

17:05

Sunak, I think Rishi Sunak's team

17:07

thought he'd do really well in the first one.

17:09

But then one of the big themes was that

17:11

he almost looked too much as though his lecturing

17:13

or talking down or mansplaining became the word of

17:15

Liz Truss. So they can surprise you in lots

17:17

of different ways. Martha Lynne Fox, are

17:20

you excited about the debates? I'm more

17:22

excited about the Biden-Trump debate. I was going to say,

17:24

because that is a big deal. That's the first ones

17:26

in June. It's had a lot of incredible restrictions put

17:28

on it. And the list of things that I was

17:30

reading that Biden has demanded of Trump can't

17:32

interrupt all these different things. That would be

17:35

interesting to watch. And, D'Amanda Harkness, will you

17:37

be watching any of these debates? Well, I'll

17:39

probably watch some of them, because I think

17:41

it's always... It's too rare to actually

17:44

see leaders of political parties try and

17:46

lay out their stall and argue directly

17:48

with each other. I mean, even in

17:50

Parliament, it's quite rare

17:52

to actually get a proper debate

17:55

going that would be respectable in

17:57

other contexts as an exchange of

17:59

ideas. Fantastic. Well, we

18:02

will keep on the subject of election but

18:04

turn more to what Gage Bowles was mentioning

18:06

there in terms of the digital side of

18:08

things. I want to talk specifically about TikTok

18:10

because some people are dubbing this the UK's

18:13

first TikTok election. After

18:15

the Conservatives announced their proposals for

18:17

national service for 18-year-olds, Labour posted

18:19

this clip on the platform from

18:21

the movie Shrek with the caption,

18:23

Rishi Zunak announcing national service. Some

18:26

of you may die but it's

18:29

a sacrifice I am

18:31

willing to make. And

18:37

Rishi Zunak also did his first

18:39

video on the Conservative Party's TikTok

18:41

account in response to some of

18:43

the reaction to the policy. Hi

18:46

TikTok, sorry to be breaking into your usual

18:48

politics free feed but I'm making a big

18:50

announcement today and I've been told that a

18:52

lot of you already have some views on

18:55

it. So first thing, no, I'm not sending

18:57

everyone off to join the army. What I

18:59

am doing is proposing a bold new model

19:01

of national service for 18-year-olds. Well

19:04

I want to bring in Shona Gosh from Bloomberg, everyone

19:06

here listening to Rishi Zunak there. Give

19:08

us the basics Shona because lots of

19:10

people will think of TikTok as a

19:12

platform for kids who clearly don't vote.

19:15

But who is consuming political

19:17

content on TikTok? So TikTok

19:20

itself has been trying to dispel

19:22

the idea that it is mostly a platform,

19:25

an app used by children and that seems

19:27

to be true. It is

19:29

also widely used by the elder

19:32

millennials,

19:35

which camp I'm in and also Gen Z,

19:37

which is a pretty big cohort

19:39

and they can all vote and

19:41

have often very strong political views.

19:44

So they are on TikTok looking

19:47

for political content. I

19:49

don't know that they are necessarily looking to

19:51

be fed political content by the political parties.

19:53

So it has been interesting to see

19:55

some of the reactions to each, you

19:58

know, the two major party videos. And

20:01

it's so simple and isn't that Take Top

20:03

Bands political ads. That said, the these aren't

20:05

This is an advertising. So what was all

20:07

the parties doing or mess? So. You

20:09

know, a little like any social media. Platform:

20:11

The parties are allowed to have

20:13

a towns. And unevenness

20:16

you out concerns. But what they can't

20:18

do is. Is pay to disseminate not

20:20

consent more widely to a broader

20:23

audience. On tic toc they com

20:25

paisa spreads, they have to try

20:27

and go viral naturally. As at,

20:29

while I don't foresee. Said of.

20:32

Either of those that he is going pathetically

20:34

borrow any time soon. But but that's the

20:36

goal is that in are they com pay

20:39

I'm in. One drawback is that takes off

20:41

his in the Sonics a take see transparent

20:43

about how it's policing the stuff so I'm

20:45

You know we don't necessarily know it. Probably

20:48

the major political parties are not breaking the

20:50

rules, but we do know that there are

20:52

influence. He sometimes got a mine and Thunderbolt

20:54

that pasting. so that's not to say that.

20:57

You know, even though there is this ban

20:59

on political advertising, you may noisy content that

21:01

that sort of. Scots? not a little.

21:03

does. And co Will is a

21:05

pervert. past have a moment to bring

21:07

in so and taught them from crazy

21:10

of ad agency Topham Guerin because soon

21:12

is known as Boris Johnson social media

21:14

guru having worked on his twenty nineteen

21:16

general election campaign. So welcome to the

21:18

media So. Kind.

21:21

To be Instead it's. Great. To have

21:23

the i think your use of tic

21:25

toc as east will election til actually

21:27

came later at last year in New

21:29

Zealand you ran the right wing National

21:32

Parties social media campaign and that party

21:34

won the election. Why then did you

21:36

find this on take top and presumably

21:38

you believe it translates into votes. That's.

21:42

right your we saw a huge shift

21:44

and the way people were using social

21:46

media and new zealand and the best

21:48

example liking to view is we were

21:50

we know we were going the office

21:52

ingredients it dot videos with the the

21:54

now prime minister and he came in

21:56

one day he said i wouldn't believe

21:58

what's just happened I've

22:00

just had someone stop me on

22:02

the street and say they recognize

22:05

me from TikTok. And that sort

22:07

of represented very simplistically a watershed

22:09

moment for the platform's ability to

22:11

have genuine cut through with audiences

22:13

at scale and with voters. And

22:16

to be honest here in the UK, we've already seen

22:18

that. The Labour Party have racked up 10 million

22:21

views in the last few days

22:24

on TikTok alone. The Conservatives, a

22:26

few million themselves. Now

22:28

to pay for those views

22:30

on other platforms would be extremely

22:32

expensive. And as we've discussed already,

22:35

that's all organic. That's all based

22:37

on the quality or

22:39

lack thereof in the content that they've

22:41

been sharing. And memes

22:43

are a really effective form of communication.

22:45

I'd go as far as I half

22:47

the internet is just memes. And

22:50

political parties are still and clearly

22:52

needing to embrace them to disseminate

22:55

their message. So just

22:57

tell us how it works then. You're trying to create,

22:59

you know, you can't buy your ways of prominence on TikTok.

23:01

So you're trying to create these memes, whatever it might be.

23:04

What are you doing? Sitting around with a young

23:06

team, talking about how to do that? How, just

23:08

talk us through how you do it. Yeah,

23:10

that's right. Look, I think it would be helpful to have

23:13

a young team at

23:15

the helm of that. A lot

23:17

of these are sort of trends

23:19

or internet subcultures that sort of

23:21

capture different audiences on TikTok. And

23:23

when you can find a way

23:25

to mash your political message in

23:28

with this trend or aesthetic or

23:30

content style, that's when you can

23:32

really start to get viral content

23:35

going. You know, the silver black,

23:37

surprise, surprise, is a meme

23:39

that's been going around on TikTok for

23:41

a while and Labor were able to

23:43

latch on to that with the national

23:45

service policy to poke fun at the

23:48

conservatives. So if you've got a young

23:50

team who is really well

23:52

versed with these sorts of

23:54

subcultures and trends on TikTok,

23:56

then you can leverage it

23:58

really hard. But there are

24:00

other good ways to use TikTok for

24:03

content as well, where you can engage

24:05

with voters and respond to videos. Right.

24:08

OK. And when you ran Boris Johnson's

24:10

social media, TikTok obviously had far less

24:12

clout, as back in 2019, I guess

24:14

it was more about Twitter, Facebook, Instagram.

24:16

I know at the time you were

24:19

criticised for renaming the official conservative Twitter

24:21

account, Fact Check UK, to

24:23

attack Jeremy Corbyn's labour. How did that fit

24:25

into your campaign? Is it

24:27

very much about creating controversy

24:29

so that then you will go viral?

24:33

Look, I think controversy and

24:35

things that are a bit

24:37

spicy do definitely attract

24:39

more attention. And in a campaign,

24:41

you spend most of the time

24:43

competing for that attention, but on

24:46

your message or on your sort

24:48

of focus for whatever it is

24:50

that day, that week, or over

24:52

the course of the campaign.

24:54

And it's really hard. There's a lot

24:56

of noise out there. You're competing against

24:58

all the other political parties and you're

25:01

competing against every other brand or advertiser

25:03

that's marketing themselves to voters for whatever

25:05

reason. And so you need to get

25:07

attention and you need to retain attention.

25:09

So, yeah, you do have to throw

25:12

a few spicy pieces of content into

25:15

the mix to get that attention. Not

25:17

everyone will like it, as we observed

25:19

and learnt in 2019. But

25:22

that's part of the game and you have

25:24

to do it. And do you have any

25:26

regrets about something like that? I mean, in

25:28

terms of the ethics around it, suggesting something

25:30

is fact check UK when it's actually the

25:32

Conservative Party Twitter account. The

25:35

Conservative Party account, fact check everything

25:37

accurately during that debate. So I

25:39

certainly don't regret that. And I

25:41

haven't spent much time thinking about

25:43

it, but others obviously have. And

25:45

they're entitled to do that. And

25:48

when it comes to here, you were talking about

25:50

how your assessment of how Labour's

25:52

leapt into this. What about the Conservatives

25:54

when it comes to TikTok? Clearly they're

25:56

facing an uphill battle with younger voters.

26:00

And you assume, we all assume that those younger

26:02

voters are more on TikTok. So why are

26:04

they bothering? I was also quite surprised that

26:07

it was Rishi Sunak's first

26:09

TikTok. Yeah,

26:11

look, you've got to talk to voters where they

26:13

are. And the conservatives, obviously,

26:15

are looking to find more voters than

26:17

they currently have in their

26:19

columns. So TikTok's a great place to start.

26:22

Their approach to TikTok is a lot more

26:24

serious, a bit more policy led. Obviously, francing

26:27

with their leader. You know, perhaps Labor could

26:29

use more of their leader in less of

26:31

silver, black and shrek. But

26:33

the conservatives want to sort of lean into

26:35

a serious tone. They're using

26:37

a platform by responding to people who

26:40

ask questions. So it's like a meaningful

26:42

way of talking to voters. Now, there's

26:44

a lot of time left in

26:46

this campaign for a bit more creativity to

26:49

throw itself at their TikTok accounts. And I'd

26:51

expect to see some fun being had by

26:54

them, too. I think it's really important to

26:56

have a sense of humor in these campaigns,

26:58

but it remains to be seen how the

27:00

other parties will embrace that sort of tone.

27:03

Well, we're also joined by Sam Jeffers, who's

27:05

the founder of Who Targets You, an organisation

27:08

that campaigns for transparency in the

27:10

way politicians campaign online. Sam, what's

27:12

your reaction to what Sean has

27:14

said? I mean, do you have

27:16

your suspicions about the online tactics

27:18

used by political parties? Yes,

27:24

maybe not so much. I mean, I think one

27:26

of the things that's sort of

27:28

been positive over the last few years has been

27:30

there is now more transparency, at least, right? You

27:32

can actually see the ads. People are generally running

27:34

roughly the audiences. They're trying to reach with those

27:36

ads. You can see what they're saying. You know,

27:38

TikTok has an ad archive. Again, there's no political

27:40

ads there, but you can look at the videos

27:43

people are running and see what they're trying to

27:45

achieve with them and so on. And I think,

27:47

you know, in a sense, Who Targets Me is

27:49

a response to that, right? A kind of organisation

27:51

that's there to try and monitor

27:53

this content, point out interesting

27:55

stuff, show how people are trying to use it

27:58

in different ways, try and just kind of make

28:00

aware of the way that that's going to

28:02

happen to them over the next six weeks or so. So I

28:06

think there will be bad things happen. People will

28:08

cross lines here and there. I

28:10

think something like the fact check UK thing clearly

28:12

pre-warns the political parties this time around about

28:14

what will happen if they do things that

28:16

do seem to cross the line and how

28:19

they might find themselves in the media spotlight

28:21

for a day or two afterwards. I think

28:23

that's one of the things that

28:25

might hold back to the AI, generative AI

28:27

wave is that sort of sense that you

28:29

might get hauled over the cold for using it. And

28:31

how much have the parties spent already? I know

28:33

it's early days, but do you have an assessment

28:36

of how much they've spent on digital campaigning so

28:38

far in this election? Yeah, I mean, it's a

28:40

lot of money. I mean, obviously the spending rules have

28:42

changed for this election. They've nearly doubled. You

28:45

know, Labour since the election was announced to spend

28:47

about £375,000 on Google slash YouTube ads alone which

28:52

is half as much as they spent last

28:54

time already. So in the first week of the campaign

28:56

when notionally things are just getting set up

28:58

and we're just trying to work things out, they're already 50% of the

29:00

way to what they did in 2019. The

29:04

conservatives is a bit slower off the mark. I

29:06

mean, certainly their advertising spend is maybe

29:08

not even a quarter of what Labour have

29:10

done so far, but you know, there's still

29:12

significant amounts of money. And I think we're

29:14

gonna see both parties absolutely breeze past what

29:16

they did last time fairly quickly in the

29:18

campaign. And which messages have had

29:21

the most spend put behind them? Can

29:23

you tell that? Yeah, I mean,

29:25

the biggest single ads that have run so

29:28

far are sort of Keir Starmer biographical stuff. You

29:30

know, the kind of backstory, who I am, why

29:32

I am, the way I am, what I believe,

29:34

my parents. I mean, there are things that, you

29:37

know, some people kind of mock him

29:39

for kind of doing again and again and again but

29:41

clearly Labour Party thinks that they need to keep telling

29:43

their story and telling people it. They've spent, you know,

29:45

upwards of 30, 40,000 pounds on

29:48

individual YouTube ads, just telling that story

29:50

in the last week. But

29:53

also then, you know, Labour's also been running lots

29:55

of candidate ads around the country as well. You

29:57

know, the proper spending rules for candidates really

30:00

kick in once Parliament's dissolved over the next couple of

30:02

days. So, you know, there's a lot, there's a kind

30:04

of early rush to get your message out there before

30:06

you start to be constrained by some pretty strict limits.

30:08

And what about the Conservatives? The

30:11

Conservatives message, I mean, there's really, there's like the big

30:13

kind of Rishi Sunak launch video is the one, for

30:15

example, they've been pushing most on Facebook. They spent about

30:17

£10,000 on that so far. You

30:20

know, that's going to have been seen, you know, many, many

30:23

millions of times across the country. But,

30:25

you know, it's kind of interesting how, you know,

30:27

for this idea that it's a very sort of

30:29

presidential style campaign that we're about to have that

30:31

actually Sunak seems to be sitting a little bit

30:33

behind the kind of Tories general sort of attack

30:36

themes and trying to push people out of the

30:38

kind of voter voting for reform kind of column

30:40

that they seem to be really worried about. So

30:42

that's the predominant theme in their messaging so far.

30:45

And just have we got any evidence? I

30:47

mean, Sean, who we were just speaking to

30:49

clearly thinks they do work, but have we

30:51

got any evidence that micro-targeted digital campaigns actually

30:54

work? I mean, presumably they wouldn't be spending all

30:56

this money if they didn't think they did. Yeah,

30:58

I think there's a few. A few reasons for

31:00

this. I mean, part of this is just you have all

31:02

of these channels available and all of these audiences available to

31:04

you. There is just a sort

31:06

of mutually assured destruction logic to political campaigning,

31:08

which is, you know, there is no tomorrow.

31:11

We have a budget. We have to spend it. We have

31:13

to reach people and, you know, we'll see what the other

31:15

guys are doing and we'll try and match it and back

31:17

and forward we go. So I think

31:19

there's some of that. I think, you know,

31:21

there is evidence from various places over time

31:23

where, you know, for example, it's a while

31:25

ago now, but the 2015 campaign, for example,

31:28

the Tories targeted a lot of Lib Dem held

31:30

margin laws. There was no transparency. You couldn't really

31:32

see into what was going on in that election.

31:34

And then after they won, they they sort of

31:36

credited the ability to spend a load of money

31:38

on Facebook in those places. So, you know, I

31:41

think there is there's a kind of mixture of

31:43

like, you know, mutual logic, folklore,

31:45

but also the ability to raise money and

31:47

get volunteers mobilized and do those sorts of

31:50

things that help campaigns move as well. And,

31:52

Tamanda, if I could bring you in.

31:54

I mean, do you think these ad

31:56

campaigns contribute positively to political discourse? Well,

31:59

it depends what they are. Of now I'm in.

32:01

I'm kind of disappointed here. They spent so

32:03

much just telling us about Care Sell his

32:05

life story. He'd have thought that they might

32:08

have some policies to offer some kind of

32:10

manifest. As I say, Aids Aids depends what

32:12

they are and what they're trying to say.

32:14

I think. That. The thing a

32:17

bites. Me, I'm ready set by what

32:19

zone said about even to talk to voters were

32:21

they are if you wanted to go where they

32:23

are now we are on social media. Say.

32:26

I. Think it's is less a case of. It's

32:28

a new thing to use technology and it

32:31

transforms. Politics is more cases Political parties always

32:33

wanted reaches and persuade us and get us

32:35

to do things when not easily members of

32:38

political parties anymore A lot of feel kind

32:40

of stitch new ways to reach us of

32:42

i befall and the way but what we

32:44

do have is social media and political by

32:47

the mutually assured destruction like we've got a

32:49

budget to me have to spend a half

32:51

efforts retailers hello about Kissed Almost Parents again

32:54

I said Katie Bells and as I take

32:56

a manager said added you eve written recently.

32:58

About Take Tilt I was saying I

33:00

was surprised that was in I was

33:03

doing his to his as Tic Toc

33:05

I'm on the Conservative Party account but

33:07

then of course that's presumably because they

33:09

banned tic toc from our government phones.

33:11

Not for a long ago last year

33:13

I think because of security concerns. A

33:15

dead and I wonder if has passed

33:17

The reason that by flavor in the

33:19

Tories have been so slow in really

33:21

getting in on Take Talk as a

33:23

late campaign or get fights because if

33:25

you compare we had about knees in

33:27

advocated for Argentina. Is he like

33:29

you've never met in America? and hair as

33:32

democrats he's at, it feels that were that

33:34

behind it. Was some European countries on

33:36

that's is Mike about security I it's

33:38

a really interesting medium because. In

33:41

Tampa is at length of time. when

33:43

he speaks it's it's the strategist but

33:45

highly ranked. a different social. Media's I

33:47

mean Twitter I think it's really seen on.

33:49

this is the lowest of lows by you

33:52

put your nastiest attacks and just try and

33:54

Cygnus tried to westminster bubble pops. I'd be

33:56

hit used to being a member of it.

33:58

mad for down a meteorite. The Great

34:00

Faith it's much more targeted and laid

34:02

handy paid targeting an Instagram i think

34:05

similarly linked in recent ex him really

34:07

like I think paths clear think he's

34:09

the clouds young professionals will see that

34:12

pays off in a month's time and

34:14

but tic toc as well as he

34:16

probably get the my screen time if

34:19

he's and get it right but reform

34:21

currently. Is the party that has the largest

34:23

sputtering on take stock of any Uk policy says

34:25

interesting isn't allowed to say. A few weeks ago

34:28

my son he's fifteen and level can't vote told

34:30

me about how he does does this political reform

34:32

mom and told me that will their policies nice.

34:34

I said where have you seen it and he

34:36

said Texan gonna sibel are you saying labour easy

34:38

with served as it is in the Lib dems

34:40

He said no idea they they have ticked off

34:42

accounts said why that? you've noticed something interesting about

34:45

an unexpected strategy from reform. Yes, it's interesting to

34:47

hear that they have them the biggest for him

34:49

because the other strategy is to comment on all

34:51

the other parties. Videos and it's a

34:53

simple things like. Vote

34:55

Reform but also you know people who may

34:58

or may or may not be bought. For

35:00

just the average punter. also saying where reform

35:02

and pretty. Aggressively

35:04

commenting on the Labour and

35:07

conservative videos. To to try

35:09

and sort of of. Peel viewers

35:11

away. You know that say that labour of

35:13

them hard work of posting a meme you

35:15

know it lands on on the main feed

35:18

before you page or and and hundreds of

35:20

people thousand people view as I'm often people

35:22

d Read the. Comments and you know if

35:24

you can get up the said of quite

35:27

high. You know, you're

35:29

probably doing reasonably well and and at. Least a

35:31

portion busy as who will pill often the

35:33

for your page and argue with you and

35:35

get into a debate about reform which is

35:37

exactly what reform one So it's interesting they're.

35:39

Also going from the sort of tic toc

35:41

commenting sausages, well. A Martha Lane

35:43

Fox Kids. He was mentioning the role

35:45

of X formerly Twitter as it might

35:47

play not Gen Eisenhower and how the

35:50

party's use and you are on the

35:52

board. How much has. To

35:54

assert now access public well chains?

35:56

Do you think since. enormous bought

35:58

the company I would say

36:00

a great deal. I remember

36:03

in my interview in 2016 with

36:05

Jack when I asked him what the proudest

36:07

thing had been for him since founding Twitter.

36:09

Jack Dorsey, one of the co-founders, he

36:13

said, Oh, the Arab Spring. Now, there's

36:15

a lot to unpicking that, but clearly at

36:17

that point back in 2016, there was still

36:19

a narrative that was certainly very strong, and

36:21

Jack said maybe slightly weaker in the rest

36:24

of us, but still there that somehow Twitter

36:26

had unlocked this kind of unrest around the

36:28

world that people could change the course of

36:30

political stories and histories because of it. And

36:33

I don't think that feels the case at all now. Katie's

36:36

just confirmed it with a huge

36:38

red enormous pen. You

36:40

know, I think the thing that I'm much struck by,

36:42

and I haven't been in the company for 18 months,

36:44

but the teams that have

36:47

been responsible for making sure that the quality

36:49

of the content is as good as it

36:51

can be. Bear in mind, Twitter is much

36:53

smaller than all of us, concerning the other

36:55

platforms has been defecated interaction

36:58

with the civil society groups that they used to

37:00

talk to a lot through to the actual

37:02

moderators of the content and so on. And

37:04

I think that does matter. I think it

37:06

makes the content less reliable, which makes it

37:08

less useful, which feeds the loops

37:11

that we've all been talking about. And

37:13

I want to talk to you a little bit more about that, but I

37:15

do know you haven't spoken that much about your departure

37:17

from the company. I mean, what I remember

37:19

is the sort of battle to force Elon Musk

37:22

to buy after he signed the contract and then

37:24

he appeared to want to back out of it.

37:26

I also remember him tweeting, you know, his arrival

37:28

carrying the sink. But you were

37:31

on the inside. What was that period like?

37:33

Well, it was extraordinary.

37:36

I think it was kind

37:38

of once in a lifetime career,

37:40

just finding stuff in a way, which is

37:42

a peculiar thing as a non-executive of a

37:44

company because you're not an executive, but it

37:46

felt as though I did personally kind

37:48

of cross into being a non-executive and executive because I

37:50

was chairing a nomination and governance committee when you have

37:52

to worry about how people come on and off the

37:55

board. And so we firstly were thinking about how to

37:57

get Elon on the board and then off the board.

38:00

the compensation committee, so that was how we were

38:02

going to look after all the staff and the

38:04

rewards and the bonuses, and I was on the

38:06

transaction committee, which is the committee that worries about

38:08

how the sale and the process of selling the

38:10

company goes through. And, you know, I

38:12

still pinch myself because I certainly did not join the

38:14

board of Twitter to uphold the law in Delaware, which

38:16

is what we ended up having to do. You know,

38:19

I joined it because it was kind of extraordinary company.

38:21

I found it interesting. I loved the people and

38:23

hoped I could bring a European

38:25

perspective, but actually what it was

38:27

like was extremely, extremely intense. And

38:30

just to explain the law in Delaware is

38:32

that he had to buy because he'd signed. Because

38:34

he had a contract, because that's where the

38:37

law is. The law is the law. And I

38:39

think it's easy to imagine the

38:42

boardrooms full of lawyers and bankers, but actually that wasn't

38:44

the case. You know, there were three of us on

38:46

the transaction committee. We did have an exteller team of

38:50

litigators and of contract lawyers to help

38:52

us. And of course, the management team.

38:54

But it was pretty focused, pretty clear.

38:56

And when we had our contract, that's

38:58

what we had to do, because that's

39:00

what you have to do for the shareholders. So

39:02

it was so far away from what

39:04

your normal board activity is that it is

39:07

still, I'm kind of feeling like I'm still processing it 18

39:09

months on. And I would

39:11

just be very wary of

39:13

ever doing business with Elon Musk. Because?

39:16

Because I don't think he has

39:18

any high moral values

39:21

or much integrity. Okay.

39:24

He's obviously not here to defend himself. I'm sure he

39:27

would say something entirely different. But you've hinted in your

39:31

answer previously about how X's

39:33

moderation apparatus has changed. When

39:36

it comes to the US election,

39:38

the election here, how

39:41

much are you worrying about the impact X

39:44

Twitter could have? Or actually, is it

39:46

less of an important medium as it

39:48

than it was in previous elections already?

39:50

It feels as though it is less

39:53

important, partly because, you

39:55

know, despite really reorganising the cost

39:57

base, the revenues have clearly kept.

40:00

and advertisers have left the platform, which

40:02

again, means that you don't get the

40:04

quality news that we've been

40:06

discussing. And you know, deferring to the experts shown

40:08

on one side and Katie on the other side,

40:10

but you know, I am really struck by how

40:13

people underestimate TikTok, their peril in my opinion. You

40:15

know, it isn't just children and young people, it

40:17

is people of all ages. And I was

40:20

reading something about AI recently that said that

40:22

one of the biggest sources of quality content

40:24

that people are learning about AI is on

40:26

TikTok. And that's not just seven year olds

40:28

and 13 year olds and 18 year olds,

40:30

it's, you know, 35, 45, even

40:32

50 year olds dare I say it. So I

40:34

think we underestimate our peril. And that shift is just

40:36

interesting with how quickly that can happen. And now it's

40:39

hard as a British society to keep across all these

40:41

different pieces of the puzzle. It's been so swift. I

40:43

remember how important Twitter was for journalism. And now I

40:45

feel like it, you know, I don't look at it

40:47

nearly as much as I used to.

40:50

Stay with us, please. Because, you know,

40:52

whoever wins a small number of unelected

40:54

tech bosses in Silicon Valley still do

40:57

have a huge say in our lives

40:59

and the interactions of billions of people

41:01

around the world. To Madra Harkness, your

41:03

new book looks at how our anxieties

41:06

about the power of big tech might

41:08

be unfounded. It's called Technology is Not the

41:10

Problem. So what are you saying? What is

41:12

the problem? Well, unfounded might be putting a

41:14

bit strongly. But I think what

41:17

I came down to, I started writing more

41:19

about the tech and how our

41:21

data is gathered in my profile

41:24

and everything is personalized, including political

41:26

messaging. But then I just became

41:28

curious about why that's the technology

41:30

we have. And I finished

41:32

up saying, I don't think I

41:34

don't think we're obsessed with ourselves because of

41:36

personalizing technology. I think we have

41:38

personalizing technology because we're already obsessed

41:41

with ourselves and insecure about who

41:43

we are. And so if

41:45

somebody provides a platform or a service

41:47

or a company that says, well, everything

41:50

will be tailored to you, Katie, and

41:52

your uniquely discerning taste in whatever

41:55

it is, politicians, biscuits, whatever it is

41:57

you're looking at. Biscuits, definitely. And

42:00

we will respond to that because

42:02

it's tapping into our anxieties, which

42:04

are very particular to

42:06

now and to Western societies now, I

42:09

think. Does that mean you're letting the tech

42:11

companies off the hook? Not entirely. I

42:13

mean, I do think there's a lot of

42:15

things that they could be doing better and

42:17

certainly they can be quite unscrupulous in the

42:20

way they do tap into those insecurities in

42:22

ways that are not healthy. But I also

42:24

think if we go completely over and say,

42:26

everything is the tech company's fault, oh no,

42:29

I'm completely helpless. The technology made me do

42:31

it. Then you are actually giving up your

42:33

human agency in a way which is really

42:35

harmful. And we should hang on to

42:38

the idea that we do actually have choices about

42:40

what we do and how we use the technology.

42:42

I mean, you know, OK, maybe it

42:44

didn't cause a wave of liberation around

42:46

the world of the Arab Spring, but

42:49

it's certainly we can use it for

42:51

our own positive purposes. We don't have

42:53

to lie back and just keep

42:55

clicking on the menus that were faired. And are

42:57

you saying how we should do that? Not

43:00

entirely. Are you saying we

43:02

should come off it a bit more than we are?

43:04

Not necessarily. I think it's much more

43:06

cases. Are you using it or is it using

43:08

you? You know, if you know what you want

43:11

to be doing, if you have an idea about

43:13

what you would like to do with your life,

43:15

how maybe you'd like to have an impact on

43:17

the rest of the world, maybe you should stop

43:20

thinking about how you appear, how you're coming across

43:22

on social media or even in the real world,

43:25

how other people see you and think a bit

43:27

more about what impact would you like to have

43:29

on the world politically and otherwise, then

43:32

maybe technology is a thing that you can use

43:34

to do that, because it is great for connecting

43:36

us with each other, with other human beings. I

43:38

mean, the thing in particular about the social media,

43:42

it does allow us to connect with other

43:44

humans in a fantastic and unprecedented way. And

43:48

very little, I would say, very little

43:50

meaningful in human society has

43:52

been achieved by one person on their

43:54

own. We do achieve

43:56

things much better when we do it

43:58

with other people. And clearly regulation. is

44:00

coming in some territories. What's your sense

44:02

of whether tech platforms should be forced

44:04

into regulating their content? I

44:07

think that's a very difficult area

44:09

because sometimes it feels as

44:12

if it's governments who think

44:14

content should be regulated, but they

44:16

don't want to be directly accountable

44:18

for what gets regulated, what's

44:20

allowed and what's not allowed. And so

44:22

they outsource it to the tech companies

44:25

in sometimes the same breath as saying, oh,

44:27

these tech companies are terrible and irresponsible. And

44:30

so they make the tech companies responsible for

44:33

deciding what may or may not be

44:35

said or seen or heard or read

44:38

on social media platforms. So it's

44:40

a kind of arm's length censorship.

44:42

And the way things are going

44:44

at the moment, certainly if you look at the things

44:47

like the Online Safety Act, that

44:50

is going to cause tech companies

44:52

to lean towards caution and saying, well,

44:54

we won't allow this to go out

44:56

because you never know, we might end

44:58

up finding that we've transgressed the law.

45:00

So we'll be on the safe side

45:02

and keep it quiet. And certainly if

45:04

you look at some other countries where

45:06

there have been laws against misinformation or

45:08

fake news, then those have

45:10

often been used to counter

45:12

things which just look

45:14

like dissent or different points of view, really.

45:17

So I think

45:19

it's a very tricky area to

45:21

take action in. Limfels, what's your

45:23

thoughts on moderation is censorship that

45:25

debate? I

45:27

think that we have to do something

45:29

on both sides. I think that inaction

45:32

is not really possible

45:34

with the scale of the challenge that

45:36

we face around the potential online

45:39

harms. I mean, we

45:41

were talking before the show to Mander about children.

45:43

And I agree with Tamandra in much of

45:45

what she said. But I do also think

45:48

that the scale now and the ways of

45:50

the information reaching particularly young

45:52

people Is so profound

45:54

and so intense and so impossible for

45:57

young brains to regulate that we need

45:59

to do that. For them and I

46:01

think it's too much of a hospital. poster

46:03

says just not possible So one of the

46:05

things that I feel have become sad about

46:07

the world that the Uk has been trying

46:09

to create and has an online safety bill

46:12

is become this gargantuan can amended amended amended

46:14

piece of legislation that shit started and be

46:16

been kudrin of bringing campaign it was really

46:18

fundamental voice and trying to creates legislation around

46:20

children that the agree with what exactly the

46:22

nuances of what she's saying Not she was

46:24

right to say that that is a group

46:27

perhaps we should focus on and I think

46:29

that that's the. Challenge is not becoming

46:31

so unwieldy. Become completely pointless when

46:34

you can actually call that it's.

46:39

Monotonous, Well yeah, be the things

46:41

we very much agree on that bites. It's.

46:44

Trying. To protect children from the worst hands

46:46

on. the internet is is a very important

46:48

a worthwhile thing and on the fact that

46:51

this is kind of ballooned into a troll,

46:53

it's time make the Internet say for everybody

46:55

is it is a crazy thing because he

46:57

can no longer, he can and will make

47:00

the Internet safer Everybody Then he can make

47:02

the world safe Everybody and we should have

47:04

stayed. focus on how can we protect young

47:06

people from. Accessing. Things only

47:08

harmful to them to tunnel. Yeah.

47:11

I think it's. A. Classic

47:13

Struggle. Parent. Knee and Hamsters

47:15

or even get social media and bacon

47:18

internet companies today and I'll say the

47:20

impacts of government can have and during

47:22

that because of a supposed to from

47:24

the chef at the. Election: They

47:27

can fantasize seven days. Big

47:29

Tech braves the sequel and

47:31

that's how he nate attack

47:33

sheath am has. He.

47:36

Could argue the same pair of not more.

47:38

Than some prime ministers day and handsome

47:40

what they have access to The yeah

47:42

they helped a lot less scrutiny as

47:45

soon as center in an elected leader

47:47

would be. And you see the

47:49

Uk government, an online Hamza, so forth

47:51

and. Net bit the struggle it is

47:53

in next. Lox. Attack comes out governments

47:55

don't get what we have deer. Why? the also

47:58

just working at what is in the ring. it

48:00

and getting other countries on board. I think it is

48:02

a bit of a Wild West and something we're going

48:04

to be debating for some years to come. Well

48:07

in this studio it's all women, five of us.

48:10

So that term tech bros, I'd be interested

48:12

in what all of you think of it.

48:14

I mean we've heard so much the term

48:16

tech bro about Silicon Valley that bro culture

48:19

if you like. Arthur is that

48:21

something that you've encountered? I think you

48:23

have to un-pick it a bit beyond

48:25

just bro in my experience. I think

48:28

it's irrefutable that the

48:30

Silicon Valley, make up

48:32

of Silicon Valley is predominantly male. You

48:34

know it's lots of different immigrant

48:37

heritage people running different scales of

48:39

tech companies in Silicon Valley. So

48:41

that's a nuance and an additional

48:43

nuance in my opinion is that

48:46

the networks that exist, Stanford is a very

48:49

strong network, X PayPal is a very strong

48:51

network, Meta and Facebook is a

48:53

very strong network. And I think when

48:55

you start to see the webs

48:57

upon webs, then you start to see

48:59

the real power that a very small number of people have.

49:01

And it's not

49:04

that they are all going around chugging beer

49:06

and ripping up pictures

49:09

of women and saying never in my

49:11

lifetime. But it's that there is just

49:13

a very, very particular kind of style

49:15

and network and hidden way of getting

49:17

things done, getting jobs done, hiring people,

49:19

finding money and all that stuff. And

49:22

you know when Sam was talking before I was

49:24

just sitting there thinking brilliant. Everything he said means

49:26

that all the money we've talked about on the

49:28

show so far has basically gone to two companies,

49:30

Google or Meta. And

49:32

it is astonishing to me, we started

49:34

the programme talking about the world of

49:36

97, 98, it's astonishing

49:38

to me that it sucked up so

49:41

fast into a monopoly and I just

49:43

find it breathtaking because regulation can come

49:45

in many forms. The harms part can

49:47

be regulated but the competition part we've

49:49

been very, very, very lax on. Sam

49:51

Jeffers from Who Targets Me, let me

49:53

bring you back in there. It

49:55

is a lot of money to be headed

49:57

into two people's pockets. two

50:00

company pockets? Yeah,

50:02

it really is. And obviously, again, like I said before,

50:04

with the spending limits going up, you know, if it

50:06

was, I think it was about

50:09

eight million pounds that the parties, the

50:11

two main parties spent across Facebook

50:13

and Google at the last election, you know, maybe

50:15

this goes to 12 to 15. You know, that's,

50:18

you know, that's many

50:21

times what certainly the smaller parties are going to be able

50:23

to spend. I mean, one of the big irides that we've

50:25

had as an organisation this week was that the Green Party

50:27

said, how of an email with one of our tweets in

50:29

it saying, look, how much money the other parties are spending

50:32

on ads, we need to raise as much.

50:34

And I was like, Oh, my God, the whole thing is

50:36

totally ingested itself at this point, what's

50:38

going on. So, yeah,

50:40

you know, that that sense of that kind of competition and be

50:42

able to sort of watching each other and, you

50:46

know, it just keep going up and up and the

50:48

market going up and up is a really unfortunate thing.

50:50

And I think, you know, in the end, after this

50:52

election, I do hope parties sit down and say, actually,

50:54

we've gone a bit too far with this booth, we've

50:56

really put up, you know, everything into

50:58

these two companies in terms of our campaigning and

51:00

we need to think about how to do it

51:02

better. And Sharon, I guess just

51:04

to bring you back in, you're from

51:06

Bloomberg previously, business inside it, you have

51:08

covered tech for a long time. When

51:11

it comes to this idea of the tech bro

51:13

or the bro culture, is it changing? Have you

51:15

noticed the change? Not

51:18

really. And

51:20

if anything, I'd argue it's, it's worth

51:23

me, perhaps. I mean, I think

51:26

where I would potentially route it, you

51:29

know, with my ancient history of covering tech

51:31

is there was a period

51:33

earlier in these companies lives, you know,

51:35

I'm primarily thinking of Facebook now matter,

51:37

but Google, you

51:39

know, particularly the online online platforms

51:41

where growth at all costs, particularly

51:44

after these companies were

51:47

in the run up to and then immediately

51:49

after they went public was the driving factor.

51:52

So really, any other metric

51:54

didn't matter, except for growth.

51:57

So all Facebook really had to do was to

51:59

get keep adding users, same for Google, just

52:02

grow, grow, grow, get these users,

52:05

you know, by any means possible.

52:07

And that coincided with the

52:09

world at that time, you know, we're talking about

52:11

the sort of mid-aurs, not really

52:13

having thought that much about regulation. And

52:15

so we've ended up in a world where

52:18

it's normal that, you know, 13 year olds

52:20

have accounts on these platforms. And

52:22

this will derives from this, we

52:24

must reach new audiences, both

52:26

in terms of age and location. But actually, you

52:28

know, I think it would be a valid question

52:31

to the point about child protection to say, should we

52:33

raise that age? Like, why do why do that need

52:35

to be 13 year olds on Facebook? Do they need

52:37

that? Are they equipped to deal with what

52:39

they see on these platforms? So, you know,

52:41

I think we're dealing with lots of problems

52:43

that began at a time of extreme growth

52:45

for these companies and, you know, really more

52:48

than a decade on trying to, you

52:51

know, retcon retrospectively fit a

52:54

regulatory framework to manage that growth.

52:57

And Marthalein Fox, is the culture different in

52:59

the UK when it comes to tech compared

53:01

with Silicon Valley in terms of who's going

53:04

into it? Is it less male? You know,

53:06

is it less tech-browing? And why?

53:08

Why is it so male? I

53:10

don't like the term bro part, because that implies

53:13

to me another set of behaviour. I mean, I

53:15

think maybe that's true, but I

53:17

feel more confident saying we know what the

53:19

statistics are around the people that are in

53:21

it, you know, their gender, their nationality, their

53:24

ethnic background, whatever the different metrics are. So

53:27

it's getting worse, you know, shown as right.

53:29

And I think one of the most depressing charts

53:31

I've ever seen was something McKinsey did, I

53:33

suppose, about five, six years ago. And it said,

53:35

you know, time to gender parity across various metrics.

53:38

And so being a kind of vain person, I

53:40

looked at the things that affected me, business, politics

53:42

and tech politics, I think it said, we'll reach

53:44

gender parity, I think it's about 30 to 40

53:46

years business, 80, I can't

53:48

remember exactly. And then tech never, because

53:50

it's going backwards. And again,

53:52

I why is it going back because

53:54

I think it becomes a self reinforcing

53:58

issue where you hire The people that you

54:01

just because they like even if it's not.

54:03

X M intentionally some of his subconscious, which

54:05

I see them some is. so it's sort

54:08

of this reinforcing cycle. I think it then

54:10

means that you don't have the example the

54:12

head. As he said, people don't go into

54:14

it, but it's not one reason it is.

54:17

Thousands. Of reasons across a career. Or lifetime

54:19

and I think is a As says one thing

54:21

more consistently two bosses in the last twenty five

54:23

years than anything else. It's that there is no

54:26

silver bullet. You have to do the hard work

54:28

working out why it's happening in organization, Have to

54:30

look at the way you write, job as a

54:32

chef to look at the way you phrased still

54:34

stuff you have to look, the way that you

54:36

have your childcare, the flexibility it what you have

54:39

to the a bonus drugs. You have to look

54:41

at all the things and only then will we

54:43

really make a change. and my only other anxieties

54:45

is to build more sense. that is. I think

54:47

it will. Now are you looking. At in

54:49

the future of the power and the

54:51

money in the technology landscape and the

54:53

next twenty years is likely to be

54:55

in concerns in Moray I in deep

54:57

tech stuff where we know. Also there's

54:59

a huge challenge around gender diversity because

55:02

of the history of like women going

55:04

to compete says what he stood as

55:06

scummy it was again. For.

55:08

Us to bed. Depressing to mount a hog

55:10

hogan to bring you and have you got

55:12

any light. A T T said at this

55:14

point I'm a particular Uk culture whether it's

55:16

different at all them but you see any

55:18

glimmers of hope. What we do anything I've

55:21

noticed is thought if you it because I

55:23

do love live events and piles and so

55:25

on if you have a bottle which is

55:27

I've started a company I am I am

55:29

making such as tech products then they tend

55:31

to skew heavily mail. If you have a

55:33

panel which is about, here are some of

55:35

the ethical and societal issues around technology. He

55:37

might. As well as they skew heavily

55:40

see mile. Ah, and so I do

55:42

think maybe Is there a problem here

55:44

where people who actually wants to talk

55:46

about the interface with society or the

55:49

ethical issues ah and tend to be

55:51

female get pushed out of the actual

55:53

companies? And that may be is there

55:55

was a if there was a slightly

55:58

wider organic pool of people. Him. Making

56:00

stuff up or think about effects is

56:02

gonna have people think about the uses

56:04

in a slightly more long. the cited

56:07

why they see get all they see

56:09

them the same company. Maybe we would

56:11

end up with a slightly more mixed.

56:14

Ah, Demographic but as I knew was as they

56:16

want you know a day or we think about a

56:18

mixed. Perspective. Because

56:21

when you said lot of people come out

56:23

of Stanford come up veil things think it's

56:25

it does is very particular way of seeing

56:27

the world comes out of. I've been to

56:30

Stamford, I've done Bj Fogs courses in the

56:32

how to put together psychology and technology and

56:34

grab people with my app. Ah and that

56:36

is the way of thinking behind and lots

56:39

of the technology that comes out the Silicon

56:41

Valley A we've managed to get that was

56:43

the end of the bargain without with barely

56:45

a mention of a I'll a multi dimensional

56:48

bit but just Katie Bells. To bring you

56:50

back in. There was all this say

56:52

around the election about beat a say

56:54

I did face limousine anything so far.

56:56

nothing too dramatic. Best yeah how do

56:58

you think ai my impact this election?

57:00

Guess an interesting one that there is.

57:02

A. Video on social media which was an

57:04

ai rishi seen as saying he was

57:07

going for a zero votes strategy. Has

57:09

some and his party d say he has going. For

57:11

their strategy and that, Rishi. Scenic

57:14

himself and not say early. So yeah,

57:16

I'm that. I think that wasn't coming

57:18

from that any official party bed does.

57:20

He had his could be eased. I

57:22

think there's an interesting point which is

57:24

does lots of that the dangers of

57:26

Ai. There's those opportunities and hands of

57:28

leaders. Different. Languages yeah Kenny

57:30

use it to actually reach more

57:32

audiences. By thing is we assessed

57:34

ai election though is still. Seem

57:36

to be seen again. Had deep that guys.

57:39

And send it briefly. What about ten seconds

57:41

your sussman of ai in the selection? I.

57:44

To be honest it with can be I had

57:47

democracy. Stuff is a little bit overblown. The thing

57:49

that concerns me is I see the wet spring.

57:51

In I used often against. Women:

57:54

And girls, if I'm if I'm honest,

57:56

he seemed really clear. Tangible homes that

57:58

thought concerns me. Immediately than than the

58:01

way it might be. Third term tamsin facts and

58:03

one of our exactly absolutely thank you so much

58:05

we've run out of time. Thank you so much

58:07

you all for coming on the program. I'm not

58:09

going to have time to name he will sadly

58:11

because we really have one of time. But I

58:13

want to just thank you all for coming on

58:15

and thank you to everyone for listening. Thanks for

58:17

your company that was the media. So the by.

58:22

From Makes read your for

58:24

Britain's biggest paranormal podcast. I

58:29

saw. It in that moment.

58:31

Oh. My. God. When. Somebody

58:41

says. Listen

58:46

to Uncanny Usa on Bbc Sounds and

58:48

where did you get your. Ever

59:00

catch yourself even the same level as

59:02

dinner three days in a row? Dream

59:04

and have some then Then hello Fresh

59:06

is your guilt free dream come true?

59:08

Then is Me De Palma's. Let's.

59:11

Wake up those caves Bird with

59:13

fat juicy began Christie Chicken or

59:15

garlic butter said. Scampi! Oh

59:17

hello from Los

59:19

Sub. Dreaming of all the

59:22

delicious possibility and the here and hello

59:24

fresh that now. Let's get this in

59:26

the body size. Isn't

59:31

a good movie? see? Alabama,

59:36

which I still. Got

59:38

a mystery. Why?

59:46

And how. Are

59:50

you could. Consider

59:53

any not sounds pretty

59:55

Acorn T V Day

59:57

free trial is primarily.

59:59

Be. full.