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Finance dot com. From

1:52

Tuesday, its format will change and it'll

1:54

be shorter too. To discuss the end

1:57

of an era, we have an all-star

1:59

news night. We'll be

2:01

joined by Kirsty Walk, Peter Snow

2:03

and Michael Crick. Also in the programme

2:05

we'll talk to a journalist who is at

2:07

the World Championship boxing bout in Saudi Arabia

2:10

at the weekend and we'll discuss with him

2:12

the editorial dilemmas he faced. And

2:14

we're looking at why Scarlett Johansson

2:17

is considering suing OpenAI. But

2:19

before all of that, as I'm sure you're

2:21

aware, there is an awful lot of speculation

2:24

at the moment about whether the Prime Minister

2:26

is about to announce an election. Yes,

2:28

there's a Cabinet meeting this afternoon which we

2:30

think is actually happening around now. Foreign

2:33

Secretary Lord Cameron, we know, has cut

2:35

short a trip to Albania and will

2:37

attend, or is attending that Cabinet meeting.

2:39

As I said, we've got these amazing

2:41

News Night, ex-News Night and News Night

2:43

guests here. And one of them is

2:45

Kirsty Walk, a long-standing and still presenter

2:47

of News Night. Kirsty, Twitter

2:49

I know has been alight all

2:52

day. The media completely abhors a

2:54

vacuum. Presumably you've been checking your

2:56

phone a lot today. My

2:58

phone is red hot, but you know, I

3:01

don't care if it's a vacuum as long as we

3:03

get an election. I think it's just, for

3:05

us, it's meat and drink and

3:08

it kind of energises everybody. So

3:10

I am hoping that, upon hope,

3:12

that our speculation is correct. And

3:15

your sense, do you think it will be? Yes, I do. I absolutely

3:18

do. And I think it'll be, I mean,

3:20

I have no idea, of course, there's complete speculation,

3:22

but I think it'll be an early July election.

3:25

Michael Crick, long-standing political journalist, you're with

3:27

us here in the studio. One of

3:29

the things that's been driving the speculation

3:32

today, and this has been highlighted by

3:34

many of our journalistic colleagues, is the

3:36

lack of a denial coming from Downing

3:38

Street, Michael. Absolutely right. And if

3:40

they come out at five o'clock and say, what are

3:42

you talking about? Of course there's not an election. It's

3:45

going to look very odd. It's going to make them

3:47

look incompetent, frankly. They should have scotched

3:49

this early in the day if there's not going

3:51

to be an election. They've frequently done so in

3:54

the past. I mean,

3:56

for months I've been saying, oh, no, there won't be an

3:58

early election, you know, soon that. want to be Prime

4:00

Minister for as long as he can be and

4:03

even I think there's probably going to be one. But

4:05

just to explain how this works sometimes

4:08

number 10 won't want to come out

4:10

and make a public statement on speculation

4:12

but they will if they want to

4:14

dampen it down make a couple of

4:16

phone calls to relevant political journey. No

4:18

phone calls, no phone calls that's what's

4:20

happening, no phone calls, dead silence, dead

4:22

ear. They'd ring Chris Mason for one

4:24

and from what I gather he hasn't

4:26

been getting that call so that's

4:29

very significant. And Peter so I'd

4:32

love to hear from you you know

4:34

you were so iconic so famous for

4:36

your swingometer you embodied excitement about elections

4:39

back in the day is your body

4:41

tingling now are you as excited these

4:43

days? Katie there is nothing

4:45

for exciting an election. Roll on the

4:47

elections. I can't be bonkers to call

4:49

it frankly because you're going to lose

4:51

it and you're going to go over

4:54

six months you can hang on. General

4:56

Stanley mad. Well we will see we

4:58

will see all that and no doubt we will

5:00

hear much more about that through the program but

5:02

I wanted to look the reason why you're all

5:04

here is because of Newsnight after the announcement last

5:06

year about the changing format. Gone

5:09

will be the dedicated reporting and

5:11

investigative reporters and producers the producer

5:13

the show in several focus on

5:15

holding to account interviews and debate

5:18

and Kirsty your Newsnight's longest

5:20

serving presenter you're beating Peter Snow by a

5:22

long way on that you joined you join

5:24

the program in 1993 I was there last

5:26

year when you got

5:28

a cake for those 30 years I mean

5:31

last year you announced and that's why you had

5:33

the cake that you'd be leaving after the election

5:35

so this is actually personal for you we

5:37

may or may not find out by the end of this

5:39

program whether you're when you when you will be able to

5:41

leave Newsnight it is though of course

5:44

the end of an era although you'll be presenting

5:46

other BBC programs the reunion and all sorts I

5:48

wonder how you feel about that departure

5:51

well I feel that it's the right time

5:53

I think you know that length of time

5:55

presenting any program is enough how

5:57

much My enjoyment for.

6:00

It is undimmed to have to say,

6:02

and I've watched it. I just did

6:04

too. Young people. Coming through the programme

6:06

developing changing going on to be

6:08

production stars, Reporting stars. It's. Fantastic but

6:10

a nice to be a pipeline and there

6:13

needs to be the next generation of presenters

6:15

I am very very happy to had to

6:17

battle over, but I can't think of a

6:20

better time to hand the bath no worse

6:22

than after an election. It is the most

6:24

energizing. Event for any program particular program

6:26

that news that and lots of new

6:28

things that can. Happen sooner we can

6:30

a reactivating a You Tube channel Election Unwrap

6:33

Camping is what kind of the lease Because

6:35

you are a as you say you know

6:37

we we know you were taught to leave

6:39

and need not allowed to the election says

6:41

he would still a key part of that

6:44

present in line up as the show get

6:46

sort of from next week won't have it's

6:48

bespoke investigative reporting Tina how you approach in

6:50

the new formats or was in the form

6:52

as a kind of and the of is

6:55

I who I am deeply sad that a.

6:57

We are losing all these incredible people that have

6:59

worked in the program, but they are going forth

7:01

and multiply elsewhere. They're still going to be in

7:03

the Bbc and we can call. That's the theory

7:05

that we can call on their. Services if

7:07

and when we need him in. Of course we hadn't It

7:09

was. In: Who better to take us through the election?

7:12

But actually I think now I mean

7:14

nothing is set in Aspic. you know?

7:16

broadcasting has to though has cities as

7:19

to say that the cuts made in

7:21

the program are only a tiny proportion.

7:23

Of the cuts are gonna have to made in news and there's.

7:25

"A lot of pain to com and what we're

7:27

doing is a kind of adjusting to a pain

7:30

and either obviously we would rather have it was

7:32

a. Of the Sergeant Mark Carbons just. As

7:34

a leaving as well obviously that is

7:36

goodness in a we would be not

7:38

as half hour to play with and

7:40

particularly the times election you know we

7:42

can literally. Do anything we want. We know

7:44

with that the freedom to burn the road we want with but

7:47

the freedom to ask for more time as we want. So

7:49

in a way. What? Will happen

7:51

at editor let's and is the you come to

7:53

the end of the day and you got what

7:55

just happened and on use that you will have

7:57

the real it into the real people Lots of.

8:00

Really good political commentators will a big

8:02

interviews you can I get us half

8:04

hour six either with your coffee. Or

8:06

your of whiskey and your pajamas and

8:08

your evening dress We. Are going to

8:10

be the people that keep you up. For.

8:13

An ex a half hour a night and it

8:15

is true. We get an election announcement laid says

8:17

the off at launch for the new nice night

8:19

next week that we get. Yeah we going to

8:21

talk about the evolution of Need Night Lights s

8:23

but I think right now it is worth spending

8:25

time a bit of time. Looking back to the

8:27

very beginning. And Pc you can help

8:29

us with that cause he's gonna help

8:31

us with as well. Pizza. You presented

8:33

Newsnight from his launch in Nineteen Eighty,

8:35

all the way through to Nineteen Ninety

8:37

Seven. But you actually joined as I

8:39

understand in Nineteen Seventy Nine to help

8:42

to set the show up. What are

8:44

your memories of of beginning that process?

8:46

Losing was crazy because the Bbc of

8:48

that you'd the zebra student those days.

8:50

Bbc a duplex. It presupposes terms of

8:52

those, the news and news. Like Google

8:54

says tribal, the Bbc join the two

8:57

together. With organizing that bringing visits

8:59

with into into I was a huge

9:01

induced and this is ridiculous and moving

9:03

his presence and so they have a

9:05

union went on this would be gone

9:07

through this becomes reference the those was

9:09

all over the place of finally be

9:11

go during office huge number of pilots

9:13

will be interviewed say to people about

9:15

faith that is fake news and figures

9:17

Boots and the whole thing will be

9:19

are in january as a very very

9:21

excited when asked starts time as dense

9:23

as it's but soon as it came

9:26

on stuck with is a few. Days

9:28

river flows or around officers used until

9:30

Nineteen Eighty Eight when we finally goods

9:32

and services that in size and you're

9:34

still at Ten Thirty now. Before we

9:37

talk any further, let's hear patron colleagues

9:39

launching the show. As

9:53

well as Los. Zetas.

9:56

Enthusing that are there on the steel picket lines

9:58

up and down the Cubs. It. Private

10:00

steel workers back at work. And.

10:02

Ages To me you use the words at

10:04

lost their i notices sicko as a note

10:06

on air to the fact that it hadn't

10:08

been the smoothest of processes to relieve stress

10:10

the middle of the earth but we had

10:13

reversed love and with think frankly I'm it

10:15

would take me all afternoon of I may

10:17

have it's to talk to about the prior

10:19

with your adviser and in addition to the

10:21

movies are now that I'm not sure lot

10:23

of success for hims like what were you

10:25

Tell us what were you trying to create

10:27

because television news already existed in the nineteen

10:29

seventies of your site and when he was

10:31

sitting there. What were you What was making you

10:34

different? Well very exciting of I see as a

10:36

those sixty six degrees is news at ten for

10:38

a half hour. News. Suddenly took

10:40

over from fifteen minutes and flight

10:42

with it's and then as at

10:44

a fifth of to ten thirty

10:46

on in January nineteen eighties we

10:48

finally took off with forty five

10:50

minutes of news as it is

10:52

needed to be said them at

10:54

least he said my was in

10:56

my bedroom for that reason adults

10:58

but was it served with this

11:00

a have Forty five minutes of

11:02

news in depth of a day's

11:04

news, in depth analysis, interviews, examination

11:06

expects of a nation, what was

11:08

going on. Buses are worth it.

11:11

It's or the goons of something quite

11:13

new. It's really present airing exercise and

11:15

is was brilliantly ever since. Kersey.

11:17

I can hear you wanted to come

11:19

in spite of as he has right

11:22

was that Peter so had to the

11:24

sand pit when he arrives at out

11:26

said pets or capella zoc a cesspit.

11:28

A thing was that that the genesis of

11:30

on as well as a young teenager i

11:32

watched a so late night lineup you know

11:34

and it adds own bank holding culture had

11:36

some political ended his a dentist tennis and

11:39

in a way I can believe that he

11:41

came to be on this so and as

11:43

and a half. After false start where I

11:45

was nearly pregnant and com. My came

11:47

and is fourteen months later at

11:50

Tim died and second time. Asking

11:52

and it has been the most extraordinary

11:54

cause I think that the latitude that

11:57

news nice. had you know we

11:59

you know great you know you

12:01

you we decide on the material and

12:03

the day we all work in an incredible

12:05

Peter knows this Michael knows there's an

12:07

incredibly collegiate way to get the show

12:09

on air sometimes by the skin of our teeth and

12:11

that hasn't changed and we throw the program up in

12:14

the air with ten minutes to go if we have

12:16

to that's the great freedom that we have. I

12:18

was going to say for both of you the

12:20

thing that one of the many things that you

12:22

have in common is enthusiasm and unbelievable energy I

12:24

mean I didn't I've never worked with you Peter

12:26

although I've worked a lot with your cousin

12:29

John now at Channel 4 News I've

12:31

worked with Kirsty a lot and she

12:33

comes in as a sort of fireball

12:35

of energy just ideas fizzing and

12:38

that always felt to me like part of the USP

12:40

of News Night. I think that you

12:42

know and that we write all

12:44

in scripts not everybody has the the the

12:46

opportunity to do that we can put a slight

12:48

angle a bit of wit hopefully a bit

12:51

of dig in our scripts that's unchanged

12:54

now and and

12:56

I think the thing is that we didn't

12:58

necessarily and we don't necessarily follow exactly the

13:00

news agenda you know and particularly when we

13:02

want to dig into something deeply which we will

13:04

still do you know we don't

13:06

need to slavish follow follow the

13:09

news agenda that is not what we

13:11

are about we are about finding out

13:13

and giving analysis and interest and indeed

13:15

entertainment about something that has really

13:17

caught the public's imagination. You use that word

13:19

sorry Peter I was going to say Kirsty

13:21

used the word entertainment and of course you

13:23

were famous for as Casey's already said the

13:25

swing armature the sand and various other things

13:28

was it hard to persuade BBC bosses

13:30

to let you go for these theatrical

13:32

treatments of telling the news? No in

13:35

fact I remember Greg Dyke a famous

13:38

memory. So former director

13:40

general? Yes he said to me once he said

13:42

you know I we love you all these wonderful

13:44

gadgets you have how's the swing armature going and

13:46

I said well actually not very well

13:48

we need about quarter million pounds Greg if

13:50

that's possible and he said it's done. Those

13:54

sound like the good old days. They were the bad old days.

13:56

They were the good old days. They were the bad old

13:58

days. They'll have to give us. maybe later on

14:01

some advice on your

14:03

negotiation tactics with BBC. I

14:07

think one of the great secrets of

14:09

Newsnight was to send people to bed

14:11

with a smile on their face and

14:13

the quirkiness and the zaniness of it.

14:15

I mean, one election I was allowed

14:17

to travel around by in a Newsnight

14:20

helicopter, another election Jeremy Vine.

14:22

A Newsnight helicopter? Yeah. Of course, did

14:24

you still have one? It's in my

14:26

back garden. Jeremy Vine went

14:28

round the country and won election in a

14:30

purple Volkswagen van and on the

14:32

last night he pretended to push

14:34

it off a cliff. I

14:37

mean, and the coverage of the arts and

14:39

there was always the third item as we

14:41

call it. It had to be a bit

14:44

lighter. You don't want to send people to

14:46

bed feeling gloomy and that the world's about

14:48

to end. I mean, I think my

14:50

mantra on Newsnight was, you know, we should take what we

14:53

do very, very seriously, but we shouldn't take ourselves

14:55

too seriously. And I think that is, you

14:58

know, I try and imbue in scripts still.

15:01

And also that things go wrong.

15:03

And actually, when things go wrong, the audience actually

15:05

loves it, you know, as Peter

15:08

said, things definitely do go wrong. Sometimes they

15:10

come on there and people at home realise

15:12

and other times they don't realise. And that

15:14

makes it even funnier for us. The best

15:16

night coaster. Now you're

15:19

Lady One, Peter Hobday, again of

15:21

legendary fame, of the original presenters

15:23

of Newsnight. Peter Hobday was in Germany talking about

15:25

the Germany economy and he had a Newsnight set

15:28

behind the Germany economy, it was in shambles at

15:30

the time, and there was a Newsnight set

15:32

behind him. And as he was talking,

15:34

the set completely collapsed on time.

15:36

Everybody had a great laugh. It

15:39

was a good entertainment. I

15:41

remember a discussion at the Labour Party

15:44

conference once and Jeremy Paxman was perched

15:46

on a stool along with all his

15:48

guests. And the whole thing

15:50

was basically interviewing the guests. And he

15:54

lost, he forgot the name, suddenly his mind

15:56

went blank and he couldn't remember the name

15:59

of Peter. Bill Morris, the leader

16:01

of the TNG. So for 20 minutes,

16:03

he couldn't, and nobody knew that he'd

16:05

forgotten the name, and he couldn't remember,

16:07

so he couldn't bring him into the

16:09

discussion. And

16:11

then he suddenly did remember, thank goodness. The thing is,

16:13

I can always tell people, people want to be journalists,

16:15

I say, look, if you're on television, I

16:17

don't care if it's Tony Blair in front of

16:19

you, you write the name down, you never know when

16:22

you're going to mind that. But even now, I

16:24

mean, you know, in these straight information times, at the

16:26

beginning of the Ukraine conflict,

16:28

we went around testing the mood in Europe, and

16:30

then I went to Washington. And we

16:32

were doing a live

16:35

broadcast with the White House behind

16:37

us, and an incredibly

16:39

small crew. That crew, although

16:41

the cameraman, who also had to be the sound

16:43

recorders, who had to pin the mics on. Anyway,

16:46

what happened was that we were coming to one

16:48

of our last guests, who was sitting up as

16:50

two perched beside me, the cameraman came round, pinned

16:53

the microphone on her, and then I was told in

16:55

my ear, you've got five seconds. He

16:58

hit the deck under my

17:00

feet, on set, and

17:02

never went back to his camera. I had no

17:04

idea if I was fuzzy,

17:06

if I was clear, I had no

17:09

idea. And he literally was curled up

17:11

at my feet on the floor beside me for

17:13

10 minutes of the programme.

17:16

That's loyalty. Michael, let me

17:18

bring you in here though, because one of

17:20

the things about Newsnight that made it central

17:22

to British politics was that British politicians, more

17:26

often than not, said yes to coming

17:28

on and being grilled by some of

17:30

the most formidable presenters. It's Kirsty and

17:32

Victoria Derbyshire now, obviously Evan Davis, Emily

17:35

Maitlis, Jeremy Paxman, the list goes on.

17:37

But it has been noticeable that recently

17:39

politicians are not feeling that same obligation

17:41

always to say yes. Is it fair

17:43

to say that's changed? Definitely. And I

17:45

think the heyday of that was really

17:48

the 80s and the 90s,

17:50

when senior cabinet ministers and their shadows,

17:52

people like Douglas Hurd and Ken Clark,

17:54

the Foreign Secretary and the Chancellor at the

17:56

time, would be regularly in the Newsnight studio and they'd

17:58

come down and have a drink with you. us afterwards

18:01

and give us all the gossip. And after a while,

18:03

politicians suddenly, and

18:10

the other problem was that all sorts of new outlets came

18:13

on the scene like News24 and so

18:15

on and Radio 5 Live. And gradually

18:17

they thought, well, actually it's a bit

18:19

easier talking to Radio 5 Live on

18:21

News24 than it is being grilled by

18:24

Kirsty Wark or Peter Snow or Jeremy

18:26

Paxman late at night. And so they

18:28

stopped coming. And also the parliamentary hours

18:30

changed and that made a difference. On

18:32

most nights, MPs went home at seven o'clock and

18:34

sort of in their eyes they were knocked off

18:36

for the day. Whereas in the days when most

18:38

nights it was the end time

18:40

was ten o'clock, it was easier then to

18:42

get them into our studio or get them

18:45

down the line from Westminster. And the whole

18:47

ethos, I think, changed after that. And we

18:49

did still cover loads of politics in all

18:51

sorts of different ways, but we weren't kind

18:53

of forum for interrogating

18:56

senior politicians in the noughties and

18:58

the teens that we had been

19:01

earlier in my view. One

19:03

of the joys of those days was the

19:05

enthusiasm people had for coming on the air

19:07

on Newsnight. People wanted to appear on Newsnight.

19:09

And they felt it was their public duty,

19:11

I think, as well. That's right. I remember

19:13

once we were talking about Premo-Geniture, the Royal

19:15

Business, about first born succeeding. And I thought,

19:17

what a good idea to get the Duke

19:19

of Devenger, really. You tell us all about

19:21

Premo-Geniture. So I rang up the Duke of

19:24

Devenger's house, I woke up in North Clapham,

19:26

that place, Castle, whatever it's called. And I

19:29

got the Duchess on the phone and

19:32

she said, who's

19:34

that? I said, Peter Snow, Newsnight, we're trying to get

19:36

your husband to come on the air. So she turned

19:38

around and said, Darling, Newsnight wants

19:41

you to go on the air tonight.

19:43

And the Duke said, Oh, my time

19:45

has come. We got him on the

19:47

air. Great. But actually, has it got

19:49

harder through your time to persuade politicians

19:54

on? I think it has. But actually, when they think

19:56

they've got something to see, and this is why I

19:58

think it's quite interesting for them. the election because

20:01

I understand

20:03

this thing about wanting an easy ride

20:05

but actually if you

20:07

can deal with a tougher interview, a forensic

20:10

interview, I think that is a good

20:12

thing for a politician and we can

20:14

be quite fleet of food now because things

20:17

are lighter, we can go out and with

20:19

live cameras much more easily. So

20:21

I suppose for example in this

20:23

election whenever it comes, we

20:25

are going to be able to,

20:27

you know, Newsnight will travel

20:29

and the idea is even on a

20:32

morning we can say well look there is a massive, massive

20:35

issue about health and it is really hitting

20:37

in Birmingham, we apparently can

20:39

go. Well that is great

20:42

and you will then get the candidates either

20:44

locally or indeed the ministers or the shadow

20:46

ministers as was. So I am

20:49

hoping actually that we will actually at

20:51

the end of the day be able to give them

20:53

a run for the money for half an hour. Right,

20:56

let's talk about that because in the new format

20:58

the plan is an evolution, fresh takes

21:00

on key stories, news making interviews at the

21:02

heart of the programme. I mean we are

21:04

not going to see not news making interviews. Of

21:07

course not. Obviously everybody sees it. Or several angles.

21:10

Yeah, okay well the thing is,

21:12

take them on face value but let us just discuss

21:14

this, I am just going to talk to Ross for

21:16

a second because the BBC announced the changes in November

21:19

and it was not hard Ross to predict that the

21:21

decision would be heavily scrutinised. No, the BBC came

21:23

out, BBC News leadership came out with this

21:25

announcement, they said that the current 57 strong

21:28

team of Newsnight would be cut by more than half of

21:30

23. The BBC

21:32

said it wanted to save 7.5 million pounds

21:34

and we know that in 2020 Newsnight's audience

21:37

was around 565,000, by last year it was 365,000 and in a statement

21:39

explaining the

21:45

changes to Newsnight, BBC News's CEO Deborah

21:47

Turness said, it is no secret that

21:50

the BBC is in a tough financial

21:52

situation. Audiences are rapidly

21:54

moving from broadcast TV and radio to digital

21:56

platforms and they told us they want more

21:58

of our best journalism. These

22:00

are more investigations, more depth and

22:03

analysis, more from BBC Verified. Deborah

22:05

Ternes goes on. These are the

22:07

key forces driving the announcement we've

22:09

made, changes that continue our shape-shift

22:11

from broadcast to digital, but that

22:13

have involved some difficult choices. And

22:15

we're going to bring you all three back in in a minute on that. But

22:17

first of all, I wanted to bring in Suzanne

22:19

Franks, who is Professor of Journalism at City University.

22:22

And also, Suzanne, I've worked out. You worked on

22:25

Newsnight at the very beginning. I did indeed. I

22:27

was there when Peter made his first broadcast. OK,

22:29

well, you must have been very young. I was

22:31

the youngest. I was the only trainee, the youngest

22:34

person on the show. Well, there you go. Well,

22:36

just give us in your day job now, give

22:38

us a lowdown on the issues Newsnight is facing

22:40

when it comes to ratings. Well,

22:43

the trouble is that watching

22:45

linear news on broadcast television is

22:48

really an old people's game. It's

22:51

a diminishing audience because young

22:53

people just aren't consuming news that way. I mean,

22:56

the students that we have at City

22:58

University, for example, they don't watch news.

23:00

They don't watch news at 10. They're

23:02

taking news through TikTok, particularly at

23:04

the moment. And so

23:07

is what you're saying. You mentioned News at 10. Newsnight's

23:09

problems are problems facing TV news more generally.

23:11

People aren't watching and they aren't watching late

23:13

at night. Yes, they're not watching when they're

23:15

told to watch. They're not watching kind of

23:17

scheduled linear TV. They're watching when they

23:19

they're consuming news as and when they want it

23:22

and where they want it from. And

23:24

what's behind this? Is

23:26

it the plethora of what else is

23:28

out there? What's the explanation for why

23:30

this has been happening? Well, firstly, there's,

23:32

as you say, masses of choice. There's

23:34

all sorts of other ways. I mean, for example,

23:37

when Newsnight came on there, there wasn't even Channel 4 news. So

23:40

that was a very different world. So firstly, there's

23:42

all sorts of other ways of consuming news. But

23:44

also people don't want to I mean, particularly younger

23:47

audiences don't want to be told that they have

23:49

to go and sit in a chair at 10 o'clock

23:51

and watch half an hour news bulletin. That's just not the

23:53

way that news is consumed now.

23:55

It's where you know what your friends are

23:57

seeing, what you're sharing. snippets

24:00

here and there and that's really

24:03

the way in which news is developing for younger audiences.

24:05

And Kirsty Wark, just to bring you back in, what's

24:07

your sense on all of that? I absolutely take what

24:09

Susannah is saying on board. Of course

24:12

when there's a massive story our figures

24:14

do shoot up because people think that the news night

24:16

is the place they should come for that analysis at

24:18

the end of the day whether it's

24:20

either watching it in linear terms which I agree

24:22

is not a huge audience but the point is

24:24

it's our reach that's phenomenal and

24:26

things get repeated. So I think there's all manner

24:28

of ways to consume news night, yes there's

24:31

the linear part but if you

24:33

take some of our biggest reports they've been shared

24:35

millions upon millions of times and that makes

24:37

us an engine of creativity at the BBC.

24:40

But Kirsty why couldn't you create, and this

24:42

is a question that doesn't just apply to

24:44

news night, it was a broader question, why

24:46

could you not create those reports, those clips,

24:49

those interviews, those investigations just without all the

24:51

infrastructure and cost that comes with a nightly

24:53

TV show? That is

24:56

certainly true but actually what you do want

24:58

to have is if you've got a

25:00

breaking story as we often have you want to be

25:02

able to do that rather than in a cupboard somewhere.

25:04

You know what I mean? I think there has to

25:06

be some kind of structure around which you build a

25:08

show, it doesn't necessarily have to be a studio like

25:10

ours. But I think there will always

25:12

be, you know if something happens at 20 past

25:14

10, if there is an attack

25:17

in Paris which there was, that was on that night

25:19

at the Bataclan, people know

25:21

where to get that stuff and our audience

25:23

was massive on that night for very poor

25:25

reasons obviously because it was a terrible, terrible

25:27

thing that happened. But I think the

25:30

BBC has got to make sure that you can give that depth

25:32

of analysis very quickly on

25:35

whatever platform you are on.

25:38

Michael Frick you joined news night in 1992

25:40

as a general reporter, you were political editor

25:42

there from 2007 to 2011. So a

25:45

long time, you listen to what Suzanne

25:47

said, you listen to what Kirsty said, what's your reaction?

25:49

Well I think it's very sad and I

25:53

mean the BBC are saying well there still will

25:55

be investigative work and news night's done some really

25:57

brilliant investigative work in the last few years. But

26:00

the trouble is it's going to be a

26:02

centralized investigative unit and the great value of

26:04

Newsnight and indeed other outlets in the BBC

26:06

It's pluralism So if you're a whistleblower and

26:08

you want to tell us about some scandal

26:11

in the MOD or whatever you go along

26:13

to The today program they say

26:15

no not us you go along to you know

26:17

you and yours no not us you get it

26:19

Somebody in the BBC might pick you up if

26:21

it's all done within a centralized unit the boss

26:23

of that unit is a very powerful Person and

26:26

I don't think it's in the interests I

26:28

think frankly the closing or the diminishing of

26:30

news nights in the interests of crooks and incompetence

26:33

and Corrupts individuals they'll be

26:35

sleeping more easily at night the other point

26:37

I'd make that just before timing is dreadful

26:39

if there is an election To close down

26:41

news night just the election stuff You're

26:49

saying that pluralism within big news organizations

26:52

is a good thing Why do you

26:54

need programs to achieve pluralism there are

26:56

digital big digital news operations all around

26:58

the world which achieve pluralism? Without

27:00

having the costs and structures that come with

27:02

broadcast well I'll bring you in courtesy, but

27:04

I want to hear what my father inevitably

27:06

there is attention there But if you've got

27:08

I mean there was always a certain rivalry

27:10

in fact There's too much rivalry say between

27:12

news night and the today program at one

27:14

point the editor of today refused to have

27:16

anybody from news Night on his program or

27:18

even mentioned the name that certainly that that

27:20

kind of that kind of tension and rivalry

27:22

in competition I think is helpful and and

27:24

and will mean that if the BBC as

27:26

a whole or as the Decides that something

27:28

is in the story there's somewhere you

27:30

can still go to in the BBC, but on

27:33

the election point I mean okay

27:35

You're not closing down news night altogether But you are

27:37

in its current form and it's right now I mean

27:39

if I were the head of Dubb

27:41

returness you ought to come out right now

27:43

and give news night a stay or in

27:45

its current form a stay of execution Well

27:47

allow all the reporting Let

27:53

me just talk about that because I Absolutely

27:56

get the point of the centralized system and all that

27:58

and you need strong editors to

28:00

champion stories. There

28:03

will be an investigations unit of which there

28:05

are some fantastic producers and reporters there and

28:07

there will be ways in which

28:10

people can feed in ideas,

28:12

stories, whistle blowing. And

28:15

of course reporters get their tentacles out and

28:17

they'll be around the country trying to find

28:19

these stories. But I do think

28:21

that what the difference is now is that for

28:24

Newsnight as a

28:26

stand-alone we have such great relationships

28:28

now with World at One, with

28:30

PM, that together we can do these

28:32

things. And I think to

28:35

Michael's point, my God, when I was a producer

28:38

in the World at One, the Today program

28:40

used to lock their office and old broadcasting.

28:42

We used to try and find our way

28:45

in to get Rolodexes out to get contacts.

28:48

I understand competition but that was utterly

28:50

ridiculous. And I actually think

28:53

now, I think every single program,

28:55

every single area needs a strong

28:57

editor and these strong

29:00

editors have got to fight their way

29:02

to make sure that these stories get

29:04

told or the BBC is not doing

29:06

its duty. We want more investigations, not

29:08

fewer. Exactly. I mean here we are

29:10

in a 45 minute program when we're

29:13

getting down to half an hour when

29:15

the world is now full of whatever

29:17

it ever was before with misinformation, with

29:20

TikToks and all the convention TikTok

29:22

already. You need the news in

29:24

depth every day live, your right

29:26

right story. But you also need

29:29

the reporters from Hartlepool and Barrows.

29:31

The places we neglected. But absolutely they

29:33

say they will be doing the forensic interview

29:35

and courtesy will be there certainly. Victoria and

29:37

obviously we'll continue the battle. But isn't

29:39

the issue, and Suzanne I'd like to bring you in here, that I don't

29:42

hear much of disagreement that there

29:44

are some fundamental challenges facing broadcast

29:46

journalism and journalism whether it's news

29:49

avoidance or misinformation and so on.

29:52

But it's not automatic like a broadcast

29:54

program like Newsnight is the solution to

29:57

taking on those challenges. not

30:00

entirely. But I think the point

30:02

that Michael is making is that having

30:04

sort of individual, very strong editors and

30:07

the kind of people that do

30:09

investigations and there have been some brilliant

30:11

ones on Newsnight. If you think about

30:13

the Tavistock Gender Clinic. All the NHS

30:16

work. Yeah, the NHS. So

30:18

much stuff. Yeah, and the John Burke

30:20

scandal and so on. But you need

30:22

difficult, quirky reporters who

30:25

are kind of willing to push and push and

30:27

to be backed by strong editors and this kind

30:30

of big, blander

30:32

conglomeration of investigation I

30:34

think will not necessarily yield as a result.

30:36

We should reiterate once more that I

30:38

don't think the bosses at BBC News

30:40

would describe their plans involving being bland

30:42

one little bit. Thank you very much

30:44

indeed, Kirsty Peter, for

30:48

joining us. Michael, too. I also

30:50

don't want to talk about GB News

30:53

because this is a story that we've

30:55

come back to a number of times on the media

30:57

show and we've seen the

30:59

Ofcom has intervened this week. It

31:01

is the media regulator and it's

31:03

announced it's considering sanctioning the channel

31:06

for a Q&A they did with Prime Minister

31:08

Rishi Sunak. Ofcom has decided that the program

31:10

involved the Prime Minister taking questions from the

31:12

public. Well, we know that bit, but it

31:15

broke its broadcasting rules, says Ofcom, because it

31:17

didn't offer enough challenge to his statements. Michael,

31:19

we've talked to you about GB News. We've

31:21

talked to you about Ofcom before. You go

31:24

on to GB News as a guest sometimes.

31:26

What do you make about Ofcom's ruling in

31:28

this case? Well, I can see

31:30

what Ofcom are getting at, but actually I think

31:32

that it's a bit like Al Capone in the

31:34

end. He got done for not paying

31:37

his taxes rather than for far more

31:39

serious offenses. And I think

31:41

it's pretty soft in terms of the

31:43

offense that GB News committed

31:45

here. And, you know,

31:47

it was just a dull program and true

31:50

that the audience should have been allowed to

31:52

ask follow up questions and the presenter should

31:54

have put in

31:56

follow up questions as well. But far more

31:58

serious than that. And this is going to

32:00

be a big deal. to come to a

32:03

head tonight if there is an election, you

32:05

have the absurdity of this programme allowing politicians

32:07

like Jacob Rees-Mogg, Nigel Farage, Lee Anderson interviewing

32:09

other politicians of the same... well we know

32:11

because actually in the same seat that yours

32:14

sit at the end we had a guest

32:16

from Ofcom a few weeks back saying that

32:18

politicians standing in an election will not be

32:20

allowed to present programmes. Well they're going to

32:22

have to find some new presenters pretty quickly

32:25

aren't they in that case? Maybe

32:27

you're not going to call up Michael. But

32:29

Ofcom have been so soft on this and

32:31

they've sort of even now they're saying

32:33

we'll think about a sanction. They've

32:36

told them off time and time

32:38

again without punishing them. Essentially it's

32:41

a right wing propaganda channel

32:43

and there's been and it could well

32:45

be that we need to relax the

32:47

rules in this country but there should

32:49

be proper public debate on that and

32:51

there hasn't been. And as you well

32:53

know GB News would absolutely disagree with

32:55

that description of it that you've just

32:58

given. In a statement on this Ofcom

33:00

ruling GB News says Ofcom's finding against

33:02

GB News today is an alarming development

33:04

in its attempt to silence us by

33:06

standing in the way of a forum

33:08

that allows the public to question politicians

33:10

directly. The regulated threat to punish a

33:12

news organisation with sanctions for enabling people

33:14

to challenge their own Prime Minister strikes

33:16

at the heart of democracy at a

33:18

time when it could not be more

33:20

vital. Well Suzanne Franks

33:23

you're still here from City University. GB News

33:25

has seen itself as a disruptor to the

33:27

TV landscape since it arrived in 2021. We

33:29

were talking just a few moments ago

33:32

about Newsnight, the landscape of TV News much

33:35

more widely than that. Where does GB News

33:37

fit into this? Well

33:39

it is very much as you say

33:42

a disruptor and it's outside the kind

33:44

of you know public service ecology that

33:46

we're used to, the regulated broadcasting framework

33:48

that we're used to in this country.

33:52

And while we have those regulations and while we have

33:54

Ofcom they should be doing their job and they should

33:56

be stepping up to the plate. And I'm a bit

33:58

surprised that why they saw this. suddenly chosen this

34:00

one programme this week to sanction. I mean

34:02

there's lots of other things they should have

34:05

been sanctioning. Well they've looked

34:07

at lots of others and haven't sanctioned. Yeah,

34:09

exactly. And this ludicrous distinction they made between

34:11

news and current affairs, you

34:13

know when Peter talked about that earlier, you know Newsnight

34:16

was brought together news and current

34:18

affairs and yet they seem to have invented

34:20

this distinction about who's allowed to

34:22

present what. We did try to get to the bottom

34:25

of that a few weeks ago on this programme and

34:27

yes, well I don't think Les had

34:29

the better perhaps about that though. We

34:31

tried to. The viewing figures

34:34

though for GB News are of course still low

34:36

but it has beaten off talk TV. Are

34:39

there signs that it is bucking the

34:41

downward news trend? Well it

34:44

still has tiny figures by

34:46

you know by most standards

34:48

but as we were saying

34:50

earlier it's not all about what you broadcast and

34:52

what goes out in your linear show. It's the

34:54

clips here and there. It's the you

34:56

know the snippets and the way they can use

34:59

social media, use digital platforms to sort of push

35:01

out. It is making quite

35:04

a significant more noise there than I

35:06

think people do. Here we are at

35:08

a time where the world is falling

35:10

apart. We may have an election coming

35:12

up and the premier news organisation in

35:14

the world, the BBC, is cutting back

35:16

its news coverage. Is it dramatically incredible?

35:18

It's a calamity. Well it

35:20

would say it's not cutting back its news coverage.

35:23

It's just moving into digital and places

35:25

where the audiences are. News in depth,

35:27

it's analysis, current affairs coverage. News

35:29

night. If we take it back

35:31

to Ofcom and GB News Suzanne, Michael

35:34

Crick there was talking about this issue

35:36

about presenters being sitting MPs. Ofcom has

35:38

already made the ruling that they won't

35:40

be able to be presenters during the

35:43

general election campaign and they said they

35:45

will be watching, Ofcom will be

35:48

watching broadcasters very closely during the

35:50

campaign and they could issue rulings and sanctions

35:52

in a matter of days because although the

35:54

sitting MPs won't be able to present, there

35:57

will be potentially, whether it was Boris Johnson or

35:59

others. other people who aren't MPs at the moment

36:02

presenting on GB News. And there's some

36:04

scepticism around whether that could work. I wonder

36:06

what your assessment of that is. Well,

36:09

I think Ofcom have now been criticized so

36:11

much by so many people. I think they're

36:13

going to have to to sort of put

36:16

their money where the mouth is and actually do that in

36:18

an election. Otherwise, what's the

36:20

point, really? I mean, one of

36:22

the services is that the Melanie Dawes, the chief executive

36:25

of Ofcom, said that they were a bit softer on

36:27

GB News because GB News didn't have so many viewers.

36:30

To which I then, whenever I went into

36:32

GB News after that, I said, you better be careful,

36:34

you know, if you get too many viewers for this

36:36

show, you're going to be regulated more. So keep the

36:38

bills' figures low. Can

36:41

I just comment on this? I mean, in

36:44

what world do people just

36:46

like to have an echo chamber? I

36:48

mean, it's extraordinary to me that people

36:50

don't like to be challenged in their views or

36:53

they just want the comfort zone, they want the warm

36:55

blanket. Yeah, but that's the nature, unfortunately, that's

36:57

the nature of a lot of the modern

36:59

news environment. Absolutely. You just need to go

37:02

to the US, where obviously Fox

37:04

News is huge compared to GB

37:06

News here, and you

37:08

see kind of a whole framework of news,

37:10

which is, you know, it's quite frightening that

37:12

you don't have a sort of public service

37:15

ethos of sort of shared values and regulation.

37:17

You just have everybody sort of shouting from

37:19

their soapboxes, you know, to their own audience.

37:21

And the other question is, where does it

37:24

leave everybody else? I mean, for years as

37:26

journalists in the BBC and in ITV, we

37:28

lived in terror of Ofcom and of getting

37:31

an Ofcom inquiry and breaking the rules and

37:33

so on. And now what their

37:35

failure to regulate GB News basically seems

37:37

to give a license to everybody else

37:39

to be biased in whatever way they

37:41

like. Well, it's worth reiterating that when

37:44

Olgum came onto this programme, they said

37:46

they were monitoring what GB News is

37:48

doing very closely and that they will

37:50

act accordingly. It's

37:52

also worth saying that we've had GB News on the media

37:55

show several times since its

37:57

launch, and it always restates its commitment to

37:59

speaking to people. across the political

38:01

spectrum. On that, thank you very

38:03

much indeed to all of you for joining

38:05

us. Thanks to Kirsty Walsh, Peter Snow, thanks

38:08

to Michael Crick, and thank you very much. I

38:10

think, Suzanne, you might be staying with us for

38:12

a couple more minutes, but we're gonna talk about

38:14

boxing now, a bit of a change of tack,

38:16

but lots of you listening will be well aware

38:18

that on Saturday night, Alexander Usyk

38:21

beat Tyson Fury to

38:23

become boxing's undisputed heavyweight

38:25

champion, Usyk won on

38:27

points. This bout, if you followed it, you'll be

38:29

well aware, was in Riyadh in

38:31

Saudi Arabia, and it was part

38:33

of what critics say is Saudi

38:36

Arabia's pursuit of sports washing, a

38:38

sports washing strategy. In other words,

38:40

investing in sport, high profile sport,

38:42

to improve their international reputation and

38:44

deflect from a poor human rights

38:46

record. Alex Patil is

38:48

combat sports correspondent at the Independent.

38:51

He was there on Saturday night,

38:53

and Simon Chadwick is a professor

38:55

of sport and geopolitical economy at

38:58

Schema Business School. Simon,

39:01

first of all, just remind us

39:03

what the Saudi sports strategy is

39:05

and how this momentous historic boxing

39:08

match actually ended up there. So

39:11

Saudi Arabian investments in sport has

39:13

essentially come from nowhere over the

39:15

last 10 years. It is part

39:17

of a strategy intended

39:20

to deliver upon a national

39:22

vision, and that national vision is

39:25

multi-dimensional. It's economic, it's an attempt to

39:27

transform the Saudi economy. It's also an

39:29

attempt to transform Saudi society.

39:33

It's also a way too, I think, of pacifying

39:36

the native population, I think,

39:39

because the Saudi rulers,

39:41

they're acutely aware of the threats in

39:43

the region. We go

39:45

back to the Arab Spring, for instance. We

39:47

think also about obviously the instability of the

39:50

region and some of the threats locally

39:52

as it is. So how

39:55

we got to Saturday night is

39:57

essentially a lot of money being

39:59

spent. on lots

40:01

of different sports, particularly around

40:04

event hosting, with a

40:06

view to not just changing perceptions of

40:08

the country, but I think also drawing people

40:10

into the country so that they spend money.

40:13

And this is Vision 2030, as

40:15

it called, or just to explain that. So, which

40:18

is very interesting because if you look

40:20

at any of the GCC countries, the

40:22

Gulf Cooperation Council countries, there are six

40:24

of them and they all have 2030

40:26

Visions. And

40:29

there, these are a vision

40:31

of what they want their countries to become.

40:34

Obviously, they're hugely dependent upon oil and

40:36

gas revenues in the case of Saudi Arabia.

40:39

So, something like 40% of the economy is

40:41

accounted for by oil and gas revenues. And

40:44

so to transform the economy to

40:46

diversify, to create a great sense

40:48

of resilience economically is very important,

40:52

particularly in the world as it is today when many

40:54

of us are kicking back against

40:56

fossil fuel consumption. So this is why

40:58

I find the discussions around sport washing

41:00

interesting because I do think to a

41:02

certain extent, it's an oversimplification of

41:04

the multiple challenges that Saudi Arabia

41:06

and it's near near this face

41:09

right now. Well, Alex Paddle, I'd

41:11

like to bring you in, not least because

41:13

you've got one of the best titles in

41:15

media, combat sports correspondent at The Independent, but

41:17

also because you were there. I mean, just

41:20

for non-boxing fans, just explain how significant this

41:22

match was because, you know, clearly it was

41:24

a big deal, a big deal for Saudi

41:26

Arabia, certainly because up to now the

41:29

sporting events they've hosted have been looked on as by

41:31

and large something of a novelty, I think. Yes,

41:34

for sure. If you look at recent

41:36

boxing events out there, we've had Anthony

41:38

Joshua versus Francis Nganu, Tyson Fury versus

41:40

Francis Nganu, Nganu being a former UFC

41:43

champion, so a mixed martial artist. So

41:45

they were novel bouts, but this, some

41:47

people described at the weekend as the

41:49

fight of the century. We've

41:51

had big fights in the last 10 or

41:53

so years, Floyd Mayweather versus Manny Pacquiao, that

41:56

that was such a high profile bout that

41:58

people had dreamed of seeing for years. but

42:00

they were both past their prime. And

42:02

that was also almost a little bit novel,

42:05

but this, you know, the first time the

42:07

suited heavyweight title fight in 25 years, it's

42:09

about the people we've longed for for that

42:11

period of time. And it just looked like

42:13

we might not get one for another 25

42:15

years, but it obviously

42:17

finally went ahead in large part because of

42:20

the finances that

42:22

the Saudis have injected into boxing and what

42:24

that enables them to do and how it

42:26

enables them to pay fighters, obviously. And

42:28

what was the experience like for you? What was it like

42:30

being there and reporting on it? It

42:34

was surreal in a way. Riyadh

42:36

itself has not tremendous amount going

42:38

on. And most

42:41

locals I spoke to and most locals that

42:43

other journalists I met spoke to had

42:46

no idea that the event was going on.

42:48

Some had a vague idea that there was

42:50

a fight there. They didn't understand the significance.

42:53

They didn't know the participants in most cases.

42:56

The pre-fight events that

42:58

the way in the press conference to open

43:00

workouts, it was staged in

43:03

a sort of outdoor mall area near the arena

43:05

on the edge of town. And, you know, there

43:07

were locals milling about, again,

43:09

some of whom, employees in that

43:11

area included, asked me, you know,

43:13

what's going on? What are we looking at? So

43:16

the fight week didn't really have much of a

43:18

buzz until later on when you had

43:20

about 2,500 Brits traveling out, some

43:23

Ukrainians as well. But

43:25

even Fight Night itself, there were over 20,000 people in

43:27

the arena. It

43:29

wasn't quite full. But

43:32

again, you know, largely locals. And were

43:34

you completely able, you weren't constrained at all, you were

43:36

able to report as you wanted to report, you were able to

43:38

travel as you wanted to travel? Yes,

43:41

I felt so. I mean, obviously, I think

43:43

they've got to be conscious of the fact

43:45

that there are conceptions about what media coverage

43:47

is like and, you know, how journalists

43:49

obviously have been treated in the past. So I

43:52

didn't feel that I was necessarily restricted.

43:55

No. And there are allegations, as we

43:57

were talking about earlier, of sports washing.

44:00

How did you approach that in your reporting?

44:03

Well, it's tricky to, if I'm completely honest, probably not

44:05

as much as I would have liked to. It's

44:07

a topic I've written about and written about critically in

44:10

the past. But I do think

44:12

with situations like this, and I

44:14

can only speak for myself, but as the fight

44:16

neared, I sort of felt a bit

44:18

of a sense, as I know some journalists do, of almost feeling

44:20

like you have to pick your battles. I'd

44:22

not been to Saudi Arabia before. I didn't know what

44:24

to expect. Now that I'm

44:27

back, I suppose I feel a bit of a weight has been lifted, and

44:29

I feel I can speak a bit more openly about it. I

44:33

mean, I should probably point out the Independent has Saudi investment

44:35

itself in it. But do you

44:37

feel you were self-censoring, and how do you feel about

44:39

that, looking back? Yes. On

44:41

a personal level, I suppose. Yeah,

44:43

definitely nothing from higher up. I'd like to make

44:45

that clear. But yeah, it's a moral quandary, I

44:47

think, as I said. I've written about

44:50

it in the past. But

44:53

yeah, and Saudi Arabia is not somewhere whose

44:55

politics align with my own, and it's not somewhere I

44:57

would have gone, and

45:00

somewhere I've turned down going to in the past

45:02

until I felt like there was something in my

45:04

remit that I absolutely had to go to, in

45:06

the sense of the significance of the fight. And

45:10

Simon, if I could bring you in

45:12

now, looking across the coverage of this

45:14

sporting event on Saturday, it

45:16

seemed to me that the number of

45:18

references to human rights issues was lower

45:21

than perhaps some other sports stories involving

45:23

Saudi Arabia in recent years. Do you

45:25

think that's a fair observation? Yeah,

45:28

I do. It's really

45:30

interesting. I've got a PhD student at the moment

45:33

looking at news coverage and

45:36

reactions to not

45:39

just events being staged in difficult

45:41

territories, but also the

45:44

responses at home to investments by

45:46

the likes of Saudi Arabia into

45:48

football clubs like Newcastle United. And

45:52

I guess there are two elements to

45:54

this that I've observed, since October the 7th,

45:59

there is far less. news coverage

46:01

in general of

46:03

the geopolitical economy of sport. And

46:06

I think the reason for that is in my

46:09

understanding or my interpretation is it's actually

46:11

very difficult, very complex, it doesn't matter

46:14

what you write, you're going to get

46:16

kickback from somebody. And

46:18

so because it's only sport, let's

46:22

not let's not let's not deli with

46:24

that. Let's focus on other issues. So

46:26

yes, absolutely. But I think the other

46:28

the other part of this too, is

46:31

if we are talking about managing image

46:33

image and reputation, that

46:35

process, I think

46:37

involves legitimization. And

46:40

essentially, people in the end

46:42

just stop talking about it, you know, they

46:44

they they quit concerning themselves with the wider

46:46

issues, and they focus on the boxing, they

46:48

focus on the football. And I

46:50

guess that's that's the point. And not just for

46:53

Saudi Arabia, for any country that invests in sport,

46:56

it's a little like a kind of like bread and circuses,

46:58

you give people what they want, and

47:00

they're less likely to scrutinize and criticize.

47:03

Simon Chadwick, thank you very much indeed for joining

47:05

us. Thanks to Alex Pattle, too. But

47:07

we're going to turn to some

47:10

AI news, because Scarlett Johansson has

47:12

accused the artificial intelligence research company

47:14

OpenAI of deliberately copying

47:16

her voice for its latest chatbot

47:18

Sky. The actress is now considering

47:20

legal action. Have a listen to

47:22

how the chatbot sounds. Oh,

47:25

Mark, I'm doing

47:27

great. Thanks for asking. How about

47:29

you? Well, that was the OpenAI

47:32

chatbot. This next clip coming up is

47:34

Scarlett Johansson in her role in the

47:36

film Her as an AI chatbot. Hi,

47:41

how you doing? I'm

47:43

well. How's

47:46

everything with you? Pretty good, actually.

47:49

Scarlett Johansson and Joaquin Phoenix. Now

47:52

Scarlett Johansson has released a statement saying

47:54

she was shocked, angered and in disbelief

47:56

that the OpenAI CEO Sam Altman would

47:58

opt for a voice that's so sounds,

48:00

as she put it, so eerily

48:02

similar to mine. Further

48:05

in this statement she said, when I heard

48:07

the release demo, I was shocked and angered,

48:09

I've mentioned that. She goes on to say,

48:11

Mr. Altman even insinuated that the similarity was

48:13

intentional, tweeting a single word, her, a reference

48:16

to the film in which I voiced a

48:18

chat system. Susan Atkin

48:20

is a lawyer and partner at

48:22

ACK Media Law. Hello, Susan and

48:24

Takara Small is a tech journalist.

48:26

Takara, thank you so much to you for

48:29

coming on the program. Just give us some

48:31

context here first. Why was this voice developed?

48:33

It's one of a range of the latest

48:35

versions of chat GPT. Yes,

48:38

it's one of many AI

48:40

systems that was unveiled recently,

48:42

OpenAI updated. Many of their

48:44

services, chat GPT is probably one that most

48:46

people are familiar with. And this Sky

48:48

voice, which you've just heard, which

48:50

the actress just said is eerily

48:52

similar to hers was unveiled as part

48:54

of its big hoorah,

48:57

big update. And

49:00

it's really generated a lot of controversy.

49:02

I think it's a wake up call

49:04

to many people. Individuals are

49:06

seeing that if someone as famous, as

49:08

wealthy as Scarlett can have her voice

49:11

taken, used and modified, what hope is

49:13

there for the average person? And in

49:15

a statement shared with the BBC by

49:18

OpenAI, Mr. Altman denied that the company

49:20

had sought to imitate your Hanson's voice.

49:23

He wrote, this voice of Sky is not Scarlett,

49:25

your Hanson's and it was never intended to

49:27

resemble hers. We cast the voice actor behind

49:29

Sky's voice before any outreach

49:32

to Mr. Hanson. As with respect to Mr.

49:34

Hanson, we have paused using Sky's voice in

49:36

our products with sorry, Mr. Hanson, that we

49:38

didn't communicate better. And is that, you were

49:40

talking about the reaction there in the media

49:43

and entertainment circles. Clearly AI is a hot

49:45

topic. It

49:48

is. There was just

49:50

recently a Hollywood strike that came to an

49:52

end about this very thing. But

49:54

I think it really shows that

49:56

AI is moving so fast and

49:59

lawmakers, regulators. the private sector

50:01

really haven't come to some type

50:03

of agreement. The EU just approved

50:05

a landmark AI rule

50:08

that hopefully will act as some

50:10

type of guidance for other countries,

50:12

but everything is moving so fast.

50:14

And I think what's important is

50:17

moving so fast and driven by

50:19

private institutions where their economic incentive

50:21

is to commercialize and make profit.

50:23

So obviously there are concerns about

50:25

whether an individual's right to privacy,

50:27

their consent, their ability to opt

50:30

out. Will that be realized? Will that be

50:32

respected? So Kara, thank you. Susan, let's

50:34

bring you in here. Scarlett Johansson has said

50:36

she has been forced to hire

50:38

lawyers, that she sent legal letters to open

50:40

AI. Do you think she might have

50:43

one case or another to make here? Yeah,

50:45

I mean, I think what was

50:47

said just now is quite right. I think

50:49

the law is scurrying to catch up with

50:52

these new developments which are ahead of

50:54

the curve the whole time. So what

50:56

you find is there's a patchwork of

50:59

legal frameworks that are kind of overlapping,

51:01

trying to stretch to

51:03

accommodate what's happening. In

51:05

this country, there is no specific

51:08

AI directed law, but the

51:11

law of passing off is probably the

51:13

most capacious, if you

51:15

like. If you have goodwill in your

51:17

name or your reputation and

51:20

someone is holding you out as having

51:23

sponsored or promoting

51:25

their products, then

51:27

you can say, well, no, this is

51:29

a misrepresentation. It's causing me damage. And

51:32

I think that's quite analogous to what's

51:35

happening here. But there's also data protection,

51:37

if in fact they were processing her

51:39

voice before putting

51:41

it into artificial intelligence, then

51:43

they're processing her data, her

51:46

voice. So there are some

51:48

laws that exist which could be relevant,

51:50

but is it inevitable, given the pace

51:52

at which AI is developing at the

51:54

moment, that it gets us into territory

51:56

which current laws can't handle,

51:59

can't cover? Well, the

52:01

courts are quite flexible. I mean, you saw

52:03

that with the law of privacy. The courts

52:06

started extending the law of confidence to

52:08

kind of fill the gaps. But yes,

52:10

eventually you end up with privacy laws

52:13

to plug the gap. And I suspect

52:15

this is going to be the same.

52:17

You'll end up with a specific statute

52:19

that will cover what's happening. Give

52:21

us an idea how long a statute of that

52:23

nature might take to pull together, because of course,

52:25

if we talk about AI in six months here

52:27

on the Media Show, we're probably going to be

52:29

talking about technology we can't even properly

52:32

imagine in detail. So if there's always

52:34

a risk, the law is struggling

52:36

to catch up. Yeah, I mean, I

52:38

think it's very true that the law

52:40

is struggling to catch up. And a

52:42

statute would take years. It's got to

52:44

be promulgated. It's got to go through

52:47

all those various committee stages. And also,

52:49

you don't want to go too soon,

52:51

because you don't know what you're dealing

52:53

with. You've got to see how the

52:55

courts deal with these issues and where

52:57

the gaps are before you

52:59

start leaping into action with a statute that

53:01

might not actually do the business. Takara,

53:04

if we could bring you back in here, are there

53:06

other examples of people either in the public who

53:08

are public, you know, reputations, public figures

53:10

or people who live more

53:12

private lives that they have been in some way

53:15

copied by AI in a way that they don't

53:17

want to be? Yeah,

53:19

I mean, it's tricky because AI

53:21

is moving so fast. And it's

53:23

really difficult to determine what's AI

53:25

and what someone has created on

53:28

their own through human interactions. But

53:30

you know, one that immediately cost

53:32

the mind is a comedian named

53:34

George Carlin. So he is deceased.

53:36

And there was a company that

53:38

decided to showcase his comedic talents

53:40

by utilizing some of his work. And

53:43

I think something like that is going to

53:45

become quite common. You know, and I

53:47

want to add, you know, it was very

53:49

great point made about whether or not Starlet's

53:51

voice was used to train this AI. Just

53:54

briefly, if you would, if that's okay, Takara, thanks.

53:57

Yeah, sorry, apologies. But you know, a lot of

53:59

the data that being trained on AI,

54:01

it's a black box. So it's very hard

54:03

to determine if you can even sue at the

54:05

end of the day. That is

54:07

so kind of you, Takara. Thank you so

54:09

much for coming on the programme. Takara Small,

54:11

Simon Chadwick, thank you too. Susan Aslan and

54:13

Alex Pattle too. Thanks as well to

54:15

our Newsnight colleagues or

54:18

former Newsnight colleagues in some cases.

54:20

Kirsty Wark, Peter Snow, Michael Crick

54:22

and we also heard from Suzanne

54:24

Franks. That's it for this edition. Thank

54:26

you so much for listening. You can catch all

54:28

editions of the media show on BBC Sounds, but

54:31

for me and for Roz, goodbye. Bye.

54:35

Okay, he's coming in underneath your... He

54:40

was underneath us and that's when he came

54:42

and rammed into our left wing. A collision

54:44

between a Chinese jet and an

54:46

American spy plane. We flipped inverted. The

54:48

morning an inverted dive with no nose,

54:50

explosive decompression and severe problems. With

54:53

relations between the West and China

54:55

increasingly strained, what are the chances

54:57

of things spinning out of control?

55:00

The Western world was asleep and

55:03

it had a rude awakening. I'm

55:07

Gordon Carrera. In Shadow War, China

55:09

and the West from BBC Radio

55:11

4, I'll be exploring the friction

55:13

in this most important of relationships

55:16

and asking, has the West taken its eye

55:18

off the ball? Well, unlike

55:20

many of my colleagues, I don't talk

55:22

about what's discussed around the cabinet table. I'll

55:25

be speaking to politicians, spies, dissidents and

55:27

those caught up in the growing tension.

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You cannot ignore China. Listen

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