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Bbc Sounds Music Radio

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podcasts, Hi. I'm

1:34

Katie Razzle and this is the media show

1:37

from Bbc Radio Four. Today.

1:39

Were asking what difference would it make

1:41

if international journalists were allowed into Gaza?

1:44

We have Skies Special News Correspondent Alex

1:46

Crawford, one of the renowned reporting name's

1:48

to have signed a letter today calling

1:50

on Israel and Egypt to allow them

1:53

in. We're also looking at how that

1:55

war is playing out here in the

1:57

Uk with Islam, a phobia, anti semitism,

2:00

and threats against MPs all in the

2:02

news, what role has the media itself

2:04

played in stoking tensions? With

2:06

me to discuss that are Caroline Wheeler,

2:09

political editor of the Sunday Times, Ayesha

2:11

Hazarika, columnist and presenter on Times Radio,

2:13

to Montgomery, columnist and founder of Conservative

2:15

Home, and Dr Hannah White, director at

2:17

the Institute for Government. Welcome to you

2:19

all and thank you so much for

2:21

coming on the Media Show. We're going

2:24

to start with the letter signed by

2:26

more than 50 presenters and

2:28

reporters, including the likes of CNN's

2:30

Christiane Annanpour, the BBC's Jeremy Bowen,

2:32

and as I mentioned Alex Crawford,

2:34

who's joining us from Erbil in

2:36

Iraq. Hello Alex, just

2:39

tell us what the letter says and why you

2:41

wanted to add your name. The

2:43

letter is very short, it

2:46

simply asks for unsettered access

2:48

to Gaza, it

2:51

asks specifically for Israel

2:53

and Egypt to allow

2:56

us in and to explain their

2:58

reasons for why we're not allowed

3:00

in, and it asks

3:02

for better protection for the journalists already

3:05

inside there. Why did we do it?

3:07

Because we're not getting in and we've

3:09

tried for nearly five months

3:12

and it's becoming increasingly frustrating

3:15

and it's allowed a vacuum

3:17

of disinformation, misinformation, suspicion

3:20

and doubt about absolutely

3:22

everything. Also, I think

3:24

very importantly, it's not in the letter

3:26

but it's definitely something that the bulk

3:28

of people who signed the letter believe,

3:32

is that there is a far too high

3:34

attrition rate of journalists dying,

3:36

being killed by the

3:39

Israeli military inside Gaza, and

3:42

there is a mountain of evidence suggesting that

3:44

they're being targeted, and we need

3:46

to get in there to prove or disprove

3:48

what is going on. And

3:51

what would international journalists do or be able

3:53

to do that local journalists can't do you

3:55

think? Well for a

3:57

start there is a mass of allegations

4:01

against the Palestinian journalists that

4:04

somehow they cannot be independent,

4:06

that somehow they're being coerced

4:08

by Hamas and somehow

4:10

there are other allegations like they're just

4:13

not good enough. All of which

4:16

may or may not be true but

4:18

certainly by not allowing

4:21

others to get in there that suspicion

4:23

doubt is allowed to linger. Personally

4:26

I think they are incredibly brave,

4:29

fantastically diligent and

4:32

covering a monumentally difficult

4:35

war against huge

4:38

challenges such as losing their

4:40

own homes, being displaced themselves, losing

4:42

many of their relatives and

4:45

they need support by the international

4:47

journalists. We certainly

4:49

don't think they're inept or

4:51

unable to do the job, they very much

4:54

are and thank goodness they

4:56

are there because they are our

4:58

windows right now, the whole world's

5:00

windows into what's happening in Gaza.

5:02

But they are being, many of them

5:04

are being besmirched by an excessively

5:09

prolific and repetitive

5:13

campaign to suggest that they can't

5:15

be doing their jobs properly and

5:17

I would suggest anyway that most

5:20

media organizations, if not all, would

5:22

send, certainly covering a

5:25

war of this size and this

5:27

length, would send a team

5:29

of different reporters in on a

5:31

regular basis. I know what it's like having

5:33

been sleeping on the

5:35

floor with my crew for just one

5:38

or two nights when bombs are falling

5:40

all around you, how degraded you become

5:42

and how desperate you become, never mind

5:45

doing it for nearly five months. Every

5:48

media organization would have a team,

5:50

a rotor of correspondents and camera

5:53

crews and producers and

5:55

fixers to refresh, regenerate and recharge so

5:57

that you have fresh minds, fresh energy

6:00

and fresh brains on obviously

6:03

an extremely important developing story. And for

6:05

all those reasons, I would suggest that

6:07

we need to have access,

6:10

foreign journalists need to have access. Also,

6:12

we all report to different audiences in

6:14

different parts of the world. So

6:17

an Arabic speaker might not be

6:20

understood by those in America

6:23

or Britain or Europe. There's

6:26

a lot of reasons why we should be

6:28

in there and certainly functioning democracies and those

6:30

interested in freedom of media should see that

6:33

as incredibly important too. Now, the

6:35

Israelis say they have never and would never

6:37

target journalists. What we do know is that

6:39

it's very unsafe in Gaza right now. A

6:41

recent report from the Committee to Protect Journalists

6:43

says three quarters of the 99 journalists

6:46

killed in 2023 were in Gaza. Would

6:48

you want to go in yourself? Absolutely.

6:50

And most of those people who signed that

6:54

letter would as well. We've got

6:56

some very hesti support

6:58

from very high profile presenters

7:00

as well because

7:02

we need them. You know, we need

7:04

everyone to be speaking as one on this. And

7:07

you know, just from the BBC, there's

7:10

Clive Myrie, Fiona Bruce, Sarah Montague, Michelle

7:12

Hussein, Rita Chakrabarti, who've lent their weight

7:14

to this. They are all

7:17

very, very reputable journalists who have

7:19

a great deal

7:21

of experience as well as

7:23

those who would actually go in

7:25

such as Jeremy Bowen, Orla Guerin,

7:27

a whole host of Sky

7:30

reporters such as Stuart Ramsey,

7:33

Channel 4's, Lindsay Hilsom, Alex

7:36

Thompson. I mean, you're listening and

7:38

there's lots of very prestigious, amazing

7:40

names, high profile journalists.

7:43

I mean, the idea is that there are

7:46

lots of them and not just me. There

7:48

are lots of them prepared to go. And

7:50

the idea has previously said it can't guarantee the

7:53

safety of journalists in Gaza. It

7:56

is such obviously a small piece of land so

7:58

densely populated as we know we've seen what's happening

8:00

there already. Is it

8:02

possibly unlike any other war zone you would

8:04

have reported on in your career?

8:09

I mean, it's certainly a huge war

8:12

going on there. The fact that

8:14

the IDF or Israel can't guarantee its safety,

8:16

that would be the sort of

8:19

conditions that you'd go into any hostile environment

8:21

where a war is going on, such

8:23

as Ukraine, for instance, where most of us have

8:25

been covering for more than two

8:27

years. But Ukraine is vast, and I suppose Gaza

8:29

is tiny. Yeah,

8:32

and everyone's trapped in there. Does

8:34

that mean that the risk

8:37

is increased? It certainly increases

8:39

the necessity for journalists

8:41

to be in there, I would say,

8:44

because it's been going on for nearly

8:46

five months where we do not have

8:48

access. And this is multiple attempts. This

8:50

isn't just the first time that anyone's

8:52

tried to get in. And

8:54

for nearly five months, all those

8:56

attempts have failed. So even

8:59

the Foreign Press Association of Israel

9:01

appealed to the Supreme Court of Israel

9:03

to get access. And that was turned down

9:05

with the IDF arguing that

9:08

journalists could be put at risk in

9:10

wartime. Well, that applies to every war,

9:12

that they could endanger soldiers by reporting

9:15

on troop positions. Well, that

9:17

also applies in every war and

9:19

that it's too dangerous for Israeli

9:21

personnel to be present

9:24

at the border to facilitate press entry

9:26

in Gaza. I don't think any of

9:28

these reasons really constitute valid reasons for

9:30

why foreign journalists shouldn't be allowed in.

9:33

Going in with the IDF is very restrictive,

9:35

like it is with any military and any

9:37

embed. And so what would you be aiming

9:39

a wide enough view of what's going on

9:41

there? Sorry, Zintra, I just wondered what you

9:43

would think you realistically could manage to do.

9:45

What would you be aiming for when you

9:48

got in? I mean, is it about, would

9:50

you be asking for interviews with Hamas leaders? Would you

9:52

be trying to track down Israeli hostages? Would you be

9:54

working with aid agencies? Would that realistically be the way

9:56

that you could get access? could

10:01

get access. I mean once you're

10:03

in there to get access to

10:05

the place. I mean,

10:07

ideally, obviously you start very

10:09

high up with very high ambitions of what

10:11

you want to achieve. Whether

10:14

those are achievable are different, but obviously every

10:16

foreign correspondent, every

10:19

journalist with assault wants to

10:21

find all the Hammers leaders

10:23

who are apparently hiding in

10:25

tunnels. Are they hiding in

10:27

tunnels? No one knows. Are

10:29

they hiding behind civilians? We

10:31

want to find out and confirm or

10:34

disprove that. Can we talk to the

10:36

other journalists? Every

10:39

time we cover anything, a good journalist

10:41

will land wherever they are and talk

10:43

to the local people, everyone

10:45

who's there about find eyewitnesses or

10:47

witness it themselves. We

10:50

can't do that in Gaza. When

10:52

you go in accompanied by the

10:54

IDF, they're not even allowed to

10:57

talk to any Palestinians. So your

10:59

only source is the IDF

11:01

soldiers who are taking you in. Now,

11:04

as Jeremy Bowen very eloquently put

11:07

it, and many other reporters have made this

11:09

point as well, they wanted to

11:11

show everyone. So as

11:14

Jeremy put it, we must surmise that now

11:17

they don't want people to see what's

11:19

going on the ground. We will never know. And the only

11:21

way to prove or disprove

11:23

some of these allegations of very serious ones

11:25

of war crimes and now the even more

11:27

serious one of genocide is to get us

11:29

in there and either prove or disprove it.

11:31

And how conscious are you in your reporting

11:33

of the Israeli hostages in Gaza? Well,

11:37

obviously that's a huge issue.

11:40

And just and that's one

11:42

that's very concerning. I'd love to be

11:45

amongst a group of reporters or on my

11:47

own who found some of the hostages and

11:50

spoke to them and found

11:52

out what the conditions are and where

11:55

they are and how they are and

11:57

how frightened they are and

11:59

whether they're... getting access to food or water

12:01

or what's going on. But right now, we

12:04

can't do that. And surely that is a

12:06

big part of what's going on in Gaza

12:08

that we are missing out on. Alex Corville

12:10

from Sky, thank you so much for coming

12:13

on the programme. And we did invite Israeli

12:15

and Egyptian authorities to respond to the letter,

12:17

but nobody responded

12:19

in time to come on anyway. But I

12:21

would like to bring in Ayesha Hazarika and

12:23

Tim Montgomery as consumers of news you two.

12:25

I wonder what your sense is of the

12:27

coverage of the Israel-Gaza war. I mean, would

12:30

it be enhanced by the world's news outlets

12:32

getting access to the war zone? Ayesha?

12:36

Oh, Tim? Tim,

12:38

you go ahead. Well, of

12:40

course, I think more exposure would

12:43

definitely be welcome. I

12:45

think there are fundamental questions,

12:47

probably too big for this

12:50

30-minute programme, Katie, about how

12:53

our 24-7 news media covers

12:55

war. And I think

12:58

I'm right in saying during World War II,

13:00

the BBC just had two 15-minute news

13:03

bulletins because we were all too busy

13:06

fighting the Nazis. Whether

13:08

you can study war in

13:10

the way that we do with our 24-7

13:13

media culture and

13:16

it'd be supportive of

13:19

the strategic objectives and not

13:21

sort of lost track

13:23

because of the individual

13:26

outrages and ups and downs. I don't

13:28

know. I think there's fundamental questions about

13:30

how the media cover war. Right.

13:33

And this is no exception. Ayesha?

13:36

I mean, I think Alex makes

13:38

such a powerful, coherent case

13:41

for why we have got

13:43

to get journalists in there

13:46

into Gaza because it's so important,

13:48

particularly with this conflict. This

13:51

is a conflict which, whether you

13:53

like it or not, it's really

13:55

affecting the psychology of this country.

13:57

People are devastated on the... on

14:00

all different sides about what's happening in

14:02

this war. And this war is also

14:04

a war of information and disinformation. So

14:07

it's so, so important to get in

14:09

there for all the reasons that Alex

14:11

has said. I think the

14:13

only thing I would add to that is

14:15

Alex made the point that some of the

14:18

veracity and the quality of the

14:21

journalism from those Palestinian journalists who

14:23

are in Gaza are

14:25

being questioned. I think that's been questioned for

14:27

sort of political means. I would

14:30

hope that if Western journalists got in,

14:32

it didn't mean that their quality of

14:34

journalism was somehow superior to the journalism

14:37

that was already coming out from those

14:39

sort of local journalists

14:41

who are being incredibly brave, as

14:44

Alex said. I think, you know, sort

14:46

of a foreign media going in should

14:48

be bolstering the

14:51

work of local journalists, not doing

14:53

a sort of takeover of

14:56

their work and their lens, because they will have a

14:58

unique perspective on this as well. Absolutely

15:01

agree with you. And I definitely would not

15:04

want to give that impression that we are

15:06

in any way better. It's definitely supporting them.

15:08

They have been our windows on it and

15:10

we need to support them. You're

15:13

absolutely right. That is very definitely a

15:15

vacuum where people are able to project

15:19

their negative criticism of the Palestinian journalists. And

15:22

that was in no way coming from

15:24

me or any of the people who are

15:26

on that lesson. Absolutely. And I want to pick

15:28

up something, Ayesha, you were saying earlier about it

15:30

affecting the psychology of this country, because if we

15:33

turn to the divisions thrown up by what's happening

15:35

in Israel and Gaza and how it's been playing

15:37

out in the UK, we've seen angry scenes in

15:39

parliament last week, protests outside MP's offices. I want

15:42

to bring in Caroline Wheeler, political editor of the

15:44

Sunday Times, because you, Caroline, wrote a story at

15:46

the weekend about the wider ongoing issue of the

15:48

last few years in terms of MP's safety. You

15:51

focused on three female MPs. Just tell us about

15:53

your exclusive and how you got it. So

15:56

it really started with the scenes that we saw erupt

15:58

in parliament last week, the

16:01

vote that was being brought forward in terms of

16:03

the opposition day debate by

16:05

the SNP and the decision that the Speaker took.

16:08

It was all about the ceasefire and

16:11

basically it should have been an SNP

16:13

motion but the Speaker, because he was

16:15

concerned or said he was concerned about

16:17

MP safety, brought forward both the

16:20

Labour Amendment and the Government Amendment

16:22

which breached protocol which he himself recognised

16:25

was a bold step but he made

16:27

quite an emotional speech to

16:29

the House in defence of his decision, basically

16:32

saying that he'd done it because he wanted

16:34

to give the widest possible opportunity

16:36

for debate around the

16:38

motion surrounding ceasefire which ranged

16:41

in kind of intensity about whether we were

16:43

talking about a ceasefire now, a sustainable ceasefire.

16:45

I mean some people would have argued that

16:47

a lot of that is sort of antics

16:50

with semantics because the situation is very difficult

16:52

there as we've seen even with the discussions

16:54

this week around what a ceasefire would look

16:56

like and where the Hamas would

16:58

want to continue to play a part etc etc

17:00

but what the Speaker said was that

17:02

the reason that he had done that

17:04

was because he was really genuinely concerned

17:07

about the safety of MPs and

17:09

I think as journalists you know when you hear

17:11

that and you could see the emotion with which he

17:13

was speaking he talked about not wanting

17:15

to take a telephone call again from

17:18

somebody telling him that a colleague had

17:20

died, had been murdered as had happened

17:22

with David Amos and indeed prior to

17:24

his arrival with Jack Hanks, that he

17:26

was sort of thinking to be upset

17:28

about it. So as a Sunday

17:30

poll we have a little bit more time to

17:32

interrogate things and our daily colleagues. I

17:35

started talking to my sources about

17:37

really the veracity of that statement

17:40

and partly because there were real

17:42

questions particularly on the conservative benches

17:45

about whether that was true or whether it was an excuse

17:47

and also I mean bizarrely

17:49

there was even a concern that really what

17:51

he was responding to with a threat that

17:53

was faced to Labour MPs in particular and

17:56

almost a suggestion that Tory lives didn't kind

17:58

of matter. we started

18:00

looking at that to see really how serious

18:02

that was. On speaking to

18:04

sources really across the house, both MPs

18:07

that were experiencing those issues, but

18:09

also security sources and home

18:11

office sources, it

18:13

became clear quite quickly that actually the

18:16

threat that was being faced by MPs

18:18

in particular was really serious

18:20

and people were talking to us on an

18:22

off-record basis about some of

18:24

the threats that they were facing, but

18:27

also really worryingly that their families were

18:29

becoming a soft target, which was actually

18:31

the thing that kind of began us looking at this

18:33

even more. The

18:36

kind of revelation that we got

18:38

ultimately on was that these three

18:40

female MPs were being given close

18:42

protection by private security firms and

18:45

Schaeffer driven cars, which are normally just

18:47

reserved for those cabinet

18:49

ministers with national

18:52

security portfolios. It's awful

18:54

that it's sort of something that we're becoming used

18:56

to reading about, but today the government announced 31

18:59

million pounds in funding for security for

19:01

MPs. The husband of Joe Cox, the MP

19:03

murdered in 2016, earlier

19:05

responded saying, what we really need is the

19:08

ability to disagree well with passion but never

19:10

hatred. I mean in all your years in

19:12

Westminster, Caroline and reporting on politics, have we

19:14

reached a low point in, as Brendan Cox

19:17

puts it, our ability as a society to

19:19

disagree well? It's interesting that we're talking about

19:21

that now because it's very reminiscent of those

19:24

conversations that we had during Brexit.

19:26

I was there when we were

19:28

seeing people standing outside parliament and

19:30

MPs even being interviewed for

19:33

media programmes like this, being heckled

19:35

and indeed feeling very intimidated by

19:38

protesters at that

19:40

particular time outside parliament. So I don't

19:42

think it's a threat that we haven't

19:45

become aware of, more of. I think

19:48

perhaps there was more of it on social media,

19:50

now it's happening a lot more in person. I

19:52

think the sort of protests that we've seen

19:54

have escalated some of

19:57

that conflict, but it's not something absolutely

19:59

new. It's just something that

20:01

I think has increased. OK, well, you know,

20:03

let's stay with that thought. The media's role

20:05

in helping us disagree well. Lee

20:08

Anderson, the former Tory deputy chairman, said

20:10

something on GB News that's caused outrage

20:12

for Sam. He's lost the Conservative whip.

20:14

He talked about the London mass adi-con

20:16

being under the control of Islamists. It's

20:18

led to days of coverage and accusations

20:21

of Islamophobia. Ayesha Hazarika, you've been nominated

20:23

as a Labour peer. You're a former

20:25

adviser to the party. Tim Montgomery, you

20:27

started Conservative Home, and you also advised

20:29

Boris Johnson's government. I mean, let me start

20:31

with you, Ayesha. Lee Anderson said this comment

20:33

on GB News, the channel which also employs him

20:36

as a presenter. Nearly a week on, it's still

20:38

being talked about. Do you think the media's

20:40

got this out of proportion? No,

20:43

I don't think the media's got this out

20:45

of proportion. And with that list of many

20:47

identities you gave me, I'm also a Muslim.

20:50

And I have to say

20:52

that those comments made by Lee

20:55

Anderson are just found to be so

20:58

completely depressing. I

21:01

wasn't surprised by them, because sadly

21:03

we're quite used to that kind of hatred

21:07

at the moment. We are living in

21:09

an era where our politics and

21:11

some sections of our media are

21:13

fueling a lot of division and

21:16

hatred. So I

21:18

wasn't surprised about it at all.

21:20

And I actually think that the

21:22

media turns a blind eye

21:25

to a lot of Islamophobia

21:27

and anti-Muslim prejudice.

21:30

We've had comments, even recently,

21:33

Trevor Cavanaugh made comments. Guido

21:36

Fox made a horrible tweet. He

21:38

then deleted it. One of the

21:40

funders of GB News, Paul Marshall,

21:42

had to delete some tweets which were

21:45

very critical of Muslims,

21:49

very stereotypical about Muslims. So

21:51

I think that for many of us, and there's not many

21:53

of us Muslims, by the way, in the media

21:55

that have any kind of platform,

21:59

we're not. used to actually seeing it

22:01

being called out were almost like just expected to

22:03

sort of suck it up and live with it.

22:05

So actually I'm quite surprised in

22:08

a reasonably, not a positive, because

22:10

nothing positive about this story, but

22:12

actually it has been I think

22:14

quite something to see the

22:16

media taking this story seriously and

22:19

it has taken journalist

22:22

Robert Peston as one Raphael,

22:24

but interestingly both of Jewish

22:26

heritage calling this out and making

22:28

this point about asymmetry. If these comments had

22:30

been switched around, if Lee

22:33

Anderson had made these comments

22:35

about being controlled by Jewish

22:37

people or being controlled by Zionists,

22:39

then there would be an absolute hue

22:41

and cry about it. So I actually

22:43

think that the media, some

22:46

sections of the media, whip up

22:48

a lot of division and hatred

22:50

against Muslim people. I actually think

22:52

in this instance, it is

22:54

right that the media is reporting

22:57

this and it's pursuing it

22:59

and it's calling people out. I mean,

23:01

I want to be more journalists are

23:03

actually giving this a name of Islamophobia

23:06

than some conservative ministers are.

23:08

Interesting. Tim Montgomery, I just wanted to bring

23:10

you in there just on that point, has

23:12

the media got it out of proportion and

23:14

what's the media's role in trying to calm

23:16

things? Well,

23:18

look, I won't defend what Lee

23:20

Anderson said, particularly how he said

23:22

it. We are experiencing

23:25

at the moment rise

23:27

in anti-Semitic, anti-Muslim

23:29

hatred on Britain's streets and

23:32

politicians need to be incredibly careful

23:35

how they speak. And Lee Anderson

23:37

wasn't careful. The criticism of Sadiq

23:39

Khan, it is weak on crime

23:42

on every front, is my conservative

23:45

instinct to actually say that it

23:47

was somehow he was indulging

23:49

in something on London streets because

23:51

it was just Muslim. That was

23:54

a dangerous thing for

23:56

him to say. But I

23:58

am concerned that... that the

24:00

media are much more

24:03

interested in racism and

24:05

bigotry as an issue. It

24:07

dominates the headlines in a

24:09

way that I don't think

24:11

does justice to Britain's race

24:13

relations. And also, it

24:15

can be a way of

24:18

avoiding the underlying issues. Most

24:20

Muslims in Britain, of course, are decent,

24:23

make a massive contribution to our society.

24:26

But there is a problem.

24:28

There's a minority, extreme subculture within

24:31

Islam in Britain that is causing

24:33

certain problems. It is why we

24:35

were talking about MP security. It's

24:37

why the streets of London aren't

24:40

being policed properly at the moment.

24:42

It's why we're talking about Israel

24:44

as a foreign conflict rather than

24:46

other conflicts. I feel like there's a

24:48

moment I should bring in Hannah White. Sorry, because

24:51

she's been sitting here quietly. Hannah White from the

24:53

Institute for Government, one interpretation of what Lee Anderson

24:55

did on GB News was that he was playing

24:57

to a particular audience. He's employed

24:59

by the channel because he's a good communicator.

25:01

He gets attention. He says controversial things. You

25:04

wrote a piece yesterday that looks at recent

25:06

controversial statements from politicians, including Lee Anderson. And

25:08

you said, the obvious but worrying truth is

25:10

that some members of each party perceive potential

25:13

electoral advantage in such extreme views. I'm interested

25:15

in what you mean by that. Yeah.

25:18

And I mean, I think I have to pick

25:21

him up on sort of saying Lee Anderson

25:23

wouldn't be careful enough in what he said,

25:25

because I think Lee Anderson was very deliberately

25:27

saying the things he said. It wasn't a

25:30

lack of precision in his language, I don't

25:32

think. And I do think

25:34

it's really important that we're now having

25:36

this debate in the media about anti-Muslim

25:39

prejudice, as well as

25:41

anti-Semitism. I feel as though there's

25:43

a much less precision and accuracy

25:45

around the way people talk about

25:47

Islam and the problems that there

25:49

may be, but about Islam more

25:52

generally than if you compare to

25:57

anti-Semitism and people of the Jewish faith.

26:00

there's a lot more understanding there of what

26:02

is acceptable and what isn't. But I think

26:04

that there is

26:06

this sense of appealing

26:08

to certain parts of the electorate, and this

26:10

is partly, I think, why the media has

26:13

got so interested in the story, that actually

26:15

it speaks directly to the general election because

26:19

we have a history of issues in

26:21

our two main parties, Islamophobia,

26:23

questions around that with the Conservative Party, questions

26:25

around anti-Semitism in the Labour Party. And so

26:27

the media is very interested in whether this

26:30

is going to play into the general election.

26:32

And critics of the British press claim our

26:34

popular newspaper... Can I just come

26:36

back on this? I think Tim is doing

26:38

a bit of a... Tim

26:41

and I get on very well, by the way,

26:43

we have very different views on this, is doing

26:45

a distraction on this. Wherever there is extremism or

26:47

violence or law-breaking, politicians

26:51

and the media should talk about that

26:53

without fear or favour. But

26:56

what is very, very dangerous and very

26:58

damaging is when there is

27:00

such an asymmetry and you try and

27:02

smear people and stare at... We don't

27:04

say that all Catholics are involved with

27:06

child abuse, that would just be wrong.

27:09

If there are problems, and of

27:12

course, I'm not denying that there

27:14

are problems, you look at our

27:16

MPs, Stephen Timms was attacked, David

27:18

Amos was killed, that was by

27:20

Islamist terrorists, Joe Cox was murdered

27:22

by a right-wing terrorist. Rosie Cooper,

27:24

there was a horrible plot

27:26

to murder and kill her by right-wing

27:29

terrorists. I don't think

27:31

it's very, very dangerous when you use

27:33

a political agenda to

27:35

weaponise wanting to deal

27:37

with discrimination and prejudice. And we are running out

27:40

of time, so I should give Tim Montgomery

27:42

a word and perhaps that. The other

27:44

dangerous thing is that definitely if we

27:46

don't face up to discrimination and hatred,

27:48

that is a problem. But I think

27:50

another problem, and I think Hannah and

27:52

Aisha are both expressing this, they

27:54

begin with the view that actually the

27:57

default is that fighting discrimination

27:59

is the number one challenge.

28:02

Actually, I don't think Lee

28:04

was full of hatred when he said

28:06

what he did. He was very clumsy

28:08

and he was wrong to say what

28:11

he did. But his focus was the

28:13

policing of London, was the threats of

28:15

security to MP. All I would say

28:17

is, I'm sorry we are running out

28:20

of time and I would like to

28:22

just bring Hannah back in. Is

28:25

it one of those stories, those examples where the lobbyists

28:27

decided something is a story and won't let it go?

28:29

Clearly, these two don't think that because they, you know,

28:32

it's a big story. It is a huge story.

28:34

But do you think, you know, is it around

28:36

what does it mean for starm or it becomes

28:38

what's about starm or what does it mean for

28:40

Sunnah, rather than actual concerns about Islamophobia and anti-Semitism?

28:44

I think it could be both. And

28:46

I think the media is more

28:48

interested because of the implications for

28:51

the election. But

28:54

I think there are genuine questions which political

28:56

parties are also bringing to the fore. And

28:58

the point I was trying to make in

29:00

my piece is that there's a real responsibility

29:02

on political parties. They have lots of, they

29:05

think their incentives around what

29:07

they say and what they allow and what they

29:09

condemn or do not condemn in

29:11

terms of the language that people use around

29:14

whether they're going to get criticized for it, electoral advantage

29:16

and so on. But they also have to think

29:18

about the real life examples and

29:20

effect on MPs as we've been discussing. And

29:23

I think we could keep talking about this and I would

29:25

like to keep talking about it, but I'm afraid we have

29:27

run out of time. Thank you so much to you all

29:29

for coming on the media show, illuminating as

29:31

ever, heated sometimes. That's what we like.

29:33

And we'll be back next week. Thank

29:35

you so much for listening. Goodbye. Do

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