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0:30

Tonight on the Mehdi Hassan Show,

0:32

tyranny of the Republican minority

0:35

from the statehouse in Wisconsin to

0:37

the chambers of the US Capitol, how right-wingers

0:39

are pushing our democracy to a breaking point.

0:41

I'll speak to two new authors on this issue. Plus,

0:44

the real legacy of Mitt Romney, as the self-styled

0:46

moderate announces his retirement. How

0:49

anti-Trump was he? And

0:51

no evidence of wrongdoing, but no problem

0:53

for the GOP. Their blatantly hypocritical

0:56

stance when it comes to impeachment

0:58

inquiries.

0:59

We have the tapes. Good

1:07

evening. I'm Mehdi Hassan. If

1:10

you want to understand the seriousness and

1:12

brazenness of the Republican Party's longstanding,

1:15

ongoing

1:16

and dangerous assault on our democracy, on

1:18

voting rights, on the rule of law, there's

1:21

no better place to start than in Wisconsin.

1:23

For many, the badger state won by Joe

1:25

Biden by just 20,000 votes in 2020 is

1:28

ground zero for the attack on American

1:31

democracy. On Thursday, the Wisconsin

1:33

GOP voted to remove the state's

1:35

chief election official, Megan Wolf, from

1:37

office just months before its

1:40

first presidential primary contest. Wolf

1:42

has long been the subject of various conspiracy

1:45

theories surrounding the 2020 election. She

1:47

became a prime target for election deniers

1:49

who falsely claimed that she helped rig

1:51

the vote in Wisconsin.

1:53

After state Republicans fired her last week, Wolf

1:55

vowed to fight back, telling reporters she

1:58

intends to continue to serve until the—

1:59

matter is resolved in court. During

2:03

my 12 years working as

2:05

a nonpartisan election official, I've

2:08

learned that when politicians on

2:10

either side of the aisle are upset

2:12

with me, it's usually because

2:15

I will not bend to political pressure.

2:17

The Senate's vote today to

2:20

remove me is not a referendum

2:22

on the job I do, but rather

2:24

a reaction to not achieving

2:26

the political outcome they desire.

2:30

But Wisconsin Republicans are not stopping

2:33

with the elections, Chief. Oh, no. As

2:35

we reported on this show just a couple of weeks ago, they

2:37

have the newly elected state Supreme Court

2:39

Justice Janet Protasejwitsch in their

2:41

crosshairs too. They want to impeach

2:43

and remove her from the bench before she's

2:46

even heard a single case. Why?

2:48

Why would they do that? Well, according

2:51

to Republicans in the state legislature, Protasejwitsch

2:54

has already prejudged two cases set to be

2:56

heard by the court this term. Members of the

2:58

state GOP say comments

3:00

she made during her election campaign

3:02

regarding redistricting mean that

3:04

she should recuse herself from any case involving

3:06

the state's heavily gerrymandered

3:09

voting maps. They also argue her acceptance

3:11

of nearly $10 million from the Wisconsin Democratic

3:13

Party is disqualifying. We should note

3:15

similar behavior from other justices has never

3:18

warranted their impeachment in the past. Protasejwitsch

3:21

won over one million votes back in April.

3:23

But who cares, right? They're just votes.

3:26

The great irony is that the Wisconsin GOP

3:29

is only in power at the state level

3:31

in both those state houses of legislature because

3:34

of the gerrymandered maps that are being challenged

3:36

at the state Supreme Court. For

3:39

example, back in 2018, Democrats won

3:41

the state assembly popular vote, 53% they

3:44

won, to the Republicans, Despite

3:46

that, the GOP took control of the lower house, reaching

3:50

in 64% of the seats with Democrats

3:52

at just 36%. A

3:54

complete reversal of the vote. I

3:57

mean, do those results sound like a functioning

3:59

democracy to you?

5:17

election

6:00

he clearly lost for a coup attempt

6:02

involving fake electors and, yes, a violent attack

6:05

on the Capitol in the middle of the constitutionally

6:07

mandated vote certification process. And

6:10

remember, the reason they hate having to respect

6:12

election results and democratic outcomes is because

6:14

they know their own small d democratic

6:17

future is dire. They've won the

6:19

popular vote for president only once since 1988,

6:22

George Bush in 04. In

6:25

the Senate, which is almost evenly split down the

6:27

middle, Republican senators represent tens

6:29

of millions of fewer Americans than their

6:31

Democratic Party counterparts. And

6:33

in a place like Wisconsin, they need those gerrymandered

6:36

maps just to stay in charge in

6:38

the state legislature. Because the Republican

6:40

Party's entire strategy for continued

6:42

existence is a defense

6:44

of minority rule. Or what Harvard University

6:47

professors Daniel Ziblatt and Steven Levitsky rightly

6:49

call the tyranny of the minority. That's the title

6:51

of their new book, which is, of course, a sequel

6:54

to their 2018 best seller, How

6:56

Democracies Die. In their new book,

6:58

the two authors document the quote, authoritarian

7:01

backlash that threatens the very foundations

7:03

of our political system. They point out how instances

7:06

of minority rule are growing more frequent

7:09

and they make this rather startling point.

7:13

Imagine they write an American born in 1980 who first

7:15

voted in 1998 or 2000, the Democrats would

7:18

have won the popular vote in every six year

7:20

cycle in the US Senate and all but one presidential

7:23

election during her adult lifetime. And yet

7:25

she would have lived most of her adult life under

7:28

Republican presidents, a Republican

7:30

controlled Senate and a Supreme Court dominated

7:32

by Republican appointees. How much

7:35

faith they ask should she have in

7:37

our democracy? As things

7:39

get worse for the American political system, as Republican

7:41

minority report rule becomes ever

7:44

more entrenched and as 2024 fast

7:46

approaches, it's a question that should

7:48

haunt all of us. Joining

7:51

me now, Stephen Levitsky and Daniel Ziblatt,

7:53

they're both professors of government at Harvard

7:55

University and co-authors of that new book, Tyranny

7:58

of the Minority, why American democracy. reach

8:00

the breaking point. Thank you both for joining

8:03

me. Congratulations on the new book, although

8:05

I wish you didn't have to write a book like this. Stephen,

8:08

as I mentioned a moment ago, back in 2018,

8:10

you both wrote the book How Democracies Die.

8:13

Five years later, you've written a sequel. Were

8:15

you ever tempted to call the book How Democracy

8:18

Died? Because how much worse of a position

8:20

are we in now versus 2018 when it comes

8:22

to the dire state of our own undefined

8:24

democracy?

8:27

Well,

8:29

democracy didn't die. Luckily, we

8:31

still have a very strong,

8:33

robust opposition in the United States.

8:35

We've got federal institutions

8:38

with a strong media and a relatively

8:40

robust independent judiciary.

8:42

So the fact that Donald Trump lost and

8:45

eventually was removed from office in 2020, 2021 is

8:49

a big deal. Democracy

8:51

stands a fighting chance. But

8:54

it is under threat. And one of the things that

8:56

we have realized that a lot

8:58

of us observing American democracy over

9:01

the last five years is that the problems

9:03

run deeper. They run beyond Trump,

9:06

and they run even beyond the Republican

9:09

Party, which is turned away from democracy, because

9:12

our institutions are protecting and

9:14

empowering that authoritarian minority. Yes.

9:18

And the institutions are key,

9:21

as we mentioned, which is Senate, the electoral college, we can

9:23

talk about some of that. But Daniel, you did end up

9:25

calling the book the tyranny of minority rule.

9:27

The problem is, we have a whole bunch of people,

9:29

mainly Republicans, but not just Republicans, who

9:31

believe that's a good thing. They say the

9:33

founders didn't want the United States to be a democracy.

9:36

They didn't want majority or mob rule.

9:38

They wanted a republic. Can you refute

9:41

the whole, we're a republic, not a democracy

9:43

nonsense once and for all of us. Well,

9:46

it's certainly true that we were founded

9:48

as a republic, and so far as we weren't a monarchy,

9:50

that's really what they meant. And,

9:53

you know, but we over the last 250 years,

9:56

we've done the hard work in our country of

9:58

making our constitution more democratic.

11:59

authoritarians. And we

12:02

see that rampant in the United States, both around January 6,

12:05

as well as in states like Wisconsin, where you

12:07

have normal looking politicians who

12:09

are aiding and abetting extremism,

12:12

which ultimately gets democracy into trouble. That's very

12:14

clear from the 1920s and 30s in Europe. It's

12:16

very clear from the 1960s and 70s in Latin America.

12:20

Adam Chapnick And Daniel, NBC News is reporting that

12:23

President Biden is planning to deliver a major speech

12:25

about threats to democracy after

12:27

the second Republican primary debate later

12:29

this month. If you were writing that

12:31

speech, what would you include in it? Daniel

12:36

Coughlin He has a tough challenge, because he's

12:38

facing a situation where his political

12:40

opponent is violating basic democratic

12:43

rules. In our book, we lay out three basic criteria.

12:46

Number one, if you want to be a politician

12:48

or party committed democracy, you have to accept elections,

12:51

win or lose. Number two, you

12:53

have to not use violence to gain power

12:55

or to hold on to the power. Number three,

12:57

this point that I just made that you have to distance

12:59

yourself from political groups and extremists

13:02

and allies who engage in that kind of behavior. What

13:05

the Democratic Party is now facing is a Republican

13:07

Party that is overrun by elements

13:10

that violate all three of those principles.

13:12

I think it's really important to call that out

13:15

and to recognize that, of course, someday

13:17

we hope to live in a democracy where we have two

13:19

parties competing for the majority,

13:22

but at the current moment, we don't. As

13:24

a result of that, our democracy is suffering. And

13:27

sadly, I still don't think we've got Steven's audio

13:30

or video about. So my last question is to you, Daniel,

13:32

you both, you and Steven make a lot of proposals

13:34

in the book, like abolishing the electoral college, reforming

13:37

the Senate, so it's more in line with the population, replacing

13:40

single member House districts with proportional representation.

13:43

A lot of those kind of reforms would require constitutional

13:45

amendments, and therefore the overwhelming support

13:48

of both parties at the congressional and state

13:50

levels. Your critics would say, that's just magical

13:52

thinking. That's just not going to happen in the current

13:55

America we have. What's your response to them? Well,

13:58

first of all, there's a great American tradition.

13:59

tradition of making our democracy more democratic

14:02

and making our Constitution more democratic. At

14:04

each major point after the Civil War, at

14:06

the beginning of the 20th century, the odds

14:09

looked very much stacked against reforming our democracy.

14:13

What we are doing now is actually quite extreme,

14:15

which is we've abandoned that. We no

14:17

longer are doing that. So that's the kind of radical thing.

14:20

So there is, and there is a path forward. I mean, very

14:22

clearly, I mean, there are some major reforms that

14:24

don't require constitutional independence, for instance, eliminating

14:27

the filibuster or even weakening

14:29

the filibuster, could generate opportunities

14:31

to introduce voting reforms. And this generates

14:33

momentum. I mean, this is how democracies change

14:35

is by developing momentum where people begin to

14:38

think that we can actually once again take control

14:40

of our own democracy. And that's what we're arguing for.

14:44

It's a strong and necessary argument.

14:47

The book is called Tyranny of the Minority. Stephen

14:49

Levitsky, Daniel Ziblatt. Thank you both. Thank

14:52

you. Coming up next, reckoning

14:55

with Senator Mitt Romney's mixed

14:57

history on Donald Trump as he announces his retirement

15:00

from the Senate.

15:05

Thank

15:53

you.

15:59

Get 10% off your first week. That's Better

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Hope, H-E-L-P.com,

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slash maybe.

16:11

By now I'm sure you've read or heard about that

16:13

glowing Atlantic piece on Utah

16:16

Senator Mitt Romney. It's an excerpt

16:18

of a forthcoming biography by McKay Coppins

16:20

called Romney, A Reckoning, which

16:22

details how the senator has been ostracized by his

16:24

own party as one of only a few vocal

16:27

anti-Trump Republicans. But apparently

16:29

many of Romney's GOP colleagues quietly

16:31

agreed with him. The piece says it seemed like

16:34

every time he publicly criticized Trump, some Republican

16:36

senator would privately express solidarity,

16:39

but say they couldn't say it out loud. What's

16:41

more, we learn that the Republican cook has burst into

16:43

laughter as soon as Trump left one of their

16:45

weekly lunches after he boasted that special

16:47

counsel Robert Mueller's report failed to find proof

16:49

that he colluded with Russia in 2016. The

16:52

Atlantic profile helped kick off a goodbye

16:54

tour for Mitt Romney, who has just announced he will not

16:57

seek re-election. And he comes across

16:59

as somewhat of a hero, a sane and

17:01

sensible Republican, a relic

17:03

of the pre-Trump era. And in many ways that's

17:05

true, but that also skips

17:08

over crucial elements of Romney's political

17:10

history, both ancient and recent.

17:12

Remember, this was the guy who indulged in racist

17:15

birtherism against Barack Obama in 2012. He

17:17

made jokes about his own birth certificate

17:19

on the campaign trail as he ran for president. Then

17:22

there was this photo of Mitt Romney dining with

17:24

Donald Trump in 2016 as he vied

17:26

to be his secretary of state pick. Romney

17:28

gushed about it, saying they shared a wonderful evening

17:31

before Trump kicked him to the curb. And

17:34

there's what Romney told the Washington Post just this

17:36

week, that Trump and Biden are both not

17:38

good candidates. How is that bravely

17:41

taking a stand against the re-election

17:43

of Donald Trump? Joining me now to discuss

17:45

this and more is journalist Wajahat Ali. He's also

17:47

the author of the book, Go Back to Where You Came From, and

17:50

other helpful recommendations on how to become

17:52

American. Waj, thanks for coming back on

17:54

the show. Is Senator Romney the

17:57

hero of this story? He voted twice

17:59

for Trump. Trump's conviction in the Senate than

18:01

in the past. He also took an endorsement

18:03

from Trump when he was running for president. He endorsed

18:06

Trump in 2016 and tried to get a job

18:08

from him. He's never apologized for being complicit

18:11

in Trumpian birtherism, but

18:13

he has been good in many ways in recent

18:16

years. So how do you assess him? It's complicated.

18:19

It's not really that complicated. The only reason why we throw

18:21

around a lot of term like hero to describe Mitt

18:23

Romney is because the conservative movement in the GOP

18:26

by his own assessment in the excerpt has become

18:28

so extreme. The bar has been so lowered,

18:30

maybe that if you simply hop over it

18:32

in protection of our constitution and a free and fair

18:35

election, which Mitt Romney did, and we praise

18:37

him for it, you are seen as a hero. Yet as

18:39

you laid out, this man has been utterly, utterly

18:41

complicit in helping nurture, enable

18:43

and create the modern conservative

18:46

movement and Republican party, which according

18:48

to that excerpt has turned against him

18:50

in such a violent way, maybe that he

18:52

has to shell out $5,000 a day

18:54

for security to protect his

18:56

own family from Republican voters. Now

18:59

you and I are old enough to remember the 2012 election.

19:02

We remember that Mitt Romney was a standard bearer for the

19:04

GOP, which means like John McCain

19:07

and others whom yes, did some good

19:09

things. They enabled it. They stood

19:11

by. They kept quiet with the birtherism, the

19:13

Southern strategy on steroids, right? The

19:16

tax cuts for the rich throwing out 47% of the

19:18

population. For

19:20

those who don't know, check out the mother Jones video in

19:23

which he said, yeah, we don't represent them. They

19:25

don't pay taxes. He went along with all of it. And because

19:28

he had the audacity to do the right thing,

19:30

which is stand up for our constitution, his own

19:33

base, which he helped nurture has turned

19:35

against him. I would call him a hero maybe

19:38

if in the rest of his life, and he's a

19:40

young man, the only reason why he's retiring is

19:42

because literally he's fearing for his life

19:45

is that if he actively campaigns for

19:47

Democrats and against MAGA, if he does

19:49

pull a list chain up and do something more

19:52

than this mealy mouth, both sides, false equivalence,

19:54

which again, last thing I'll say in the own excerpt,

19:57

he warns of Joe Manchin not to join no

19:59

labels. independent party

20:01

because it'll help something. Which

20:04

is, I mean, first of all, just one quick thing. He's not

20:06

that young, Wajid, in the 70s, but

20:09

I take your point. But the point is- There was

20:11

a Chuck Grassley who was 90 years old, Mitty. Listen,

20:14

look, you're right about the fact that in the PC,

20:16

he says to Joe Manchin, don't run, you know, don't

20:18

make it easy for Trump to be reluctant. But then he goes to the

20:20

Washington Post this week and says, well, both candidates are

20:22

awful. And that's fine. You can, I'm

20:24

sure people at home, a lot of people might think both

20:27

candidates are awful in their own ways, but you can't both

20:29

sides the reelection of Donald J. Trump if you

20:31

genuinely believe he's a threat to democracy, if you

20:33

voted to convict him in the Senate twice. That's

20:36

what I find so hard to stomach. Also,

20:38

you mentioned the five grand a day that he

20:40

says he was spending in 2021 to protect

20:42

his family. What's even more, what's

20:45

even darker than that is that he says

20:47

members of the House told him at the time that

20:49

they wanted to vote for impeachment, but they

20:52

feared for their families' safety.

20:54

And my understanding was is that that has never happened

20:57

before in American politics before. People

20:59

can argue, people can hate each other, but

21:01

the idea that I can't vote a certain way because you might

21:03

kill me, I mean, that's pretty unprecedented

21:06

in modern American history. This violence

21:08

that's at the core of Trumpism. I

21:10

mean, there's a huge nugget there that Angus

21:12

King warned him and then Mitt Romney warned

21:15

Mitch McConnell before the January 6th insurrection

21:18

that they might be in danger. And he received

21:20

no response, which means all

21:22

these people were utterly complicit. And Mitch

21:25

McConnell left Mitt Romney and others out

21:27

to dry. Well, he doesn't respond

21:29

to the text, I think, according to the piece. He made

21:31

sure there's no Mitt Romney's text. Which

21:34

is remarkable because it was a fellow Republican

21:36

warning him ahead of schedule. And he's

21:38

saying, hey, hey, they're coming after all of us and

21:41

Mitch McConnell completely ignored it. This is Mitt Romney,

21:43

the standard bearer for the party in 2012, right? Not

21:45

some low-lying congressman. So the

21:47

fact that Mitt Romney chose to

21:49

share this now and tries to ride out

21:52

as a hero, this to me, heroism requires

21:54

sacrifice. It requires actions and deeds.

21:57

And the fact that he's both sides in this and the fact

21:59

that he's gonna retire. a rich man shows

22:01

to me that there's no heroism. He did the bare minimum,

22:04

we respect him, but he is also

22:06

actively enabling a movement

22:08

maybe which has further weaponized

22:10

and further radicalized. You gave the example of Wisconsin,

22:13

look what's happening with Alabama, with Senator Tuberville,

22:15

look what's happening with Florida, with

22:18

Governor DeSantis, look what's happening

22:20

across the board. This is a violent,

22:23

radicalized, anti-democratic movement that

22:25

wants power by any means necessary. So if Mitt

22:27

Romney wants to be called the hero, show me

22:30

what you're gonna do once you retire and

22:32

fight and how are you gonna fight for democracy? So far,

22:34

this is nothing. Last question,

22:37

we've heard a lot of chatter about President Biden's age

22:39

lately and whether folks should be wary about how

22:41

it would impact his reelection campaign

22:44

and a potential second term. But I want you to

22:46

listen to what the Republican front runner, a

22:48

man named Donald J. Trump, you may have heard of him, what

22:50

he said a couple of nights ago. I

22:57

need to buy a loaf of bread. And we did with

22:59

Obama. We won an election

23:01

that everyone said couldn't be won. We beat

23:04

Hillary Clinton. We would be the

23:07

World War II very

23:10

quickly if we're going to

23:12

be relying on this man.

23:15

Now, this is a man, Waj, this

23:17

is a man who says that he beat Obama

23:19

in 2016. We're on the verge of World

23:21

War II and you need ID

23:23

to buy a loaf of bread. If Joe Biden had said

23:26

any of those things, I guess it would have been front page

23:28

news on every paper in the country. But we just give

23:30

a pass to the 77 year old openly

23:32

delusional Trump. The age debate is very

23:35

weird, is it not? I don't

23:37

give a pass and I'm not for this both sides

23:39

nonsense. Look, Joe Biden criticized him for his

23:41

age. We both do with the fact that it's too old

23:43

and running for president. But he just finished a trip,

23:47

an international trip, answered questions. And

23:50

he knows that you don't need voter ID to

23:52

buy bread. He knows that he ran against

23:54

Trump, not Barack Obama. And he

23:56

also knows that we fought

23:59

World War II and won. And I fear if

24:01

World War II did happen, I wonder

24:03

which side Trump would fight for. Well,

24:07

first of all, we wouldn't fight for anyone, but which side would you

24:09

take? Yes, that's a very good question. Would it be the- Phone

24:11

number. Would it be the side of the very fine people?

24:15

Would you, Han Ali, we will have to leave it there. Always a pleasure.

24:18

Thank you for your time. Still

24:21

to come. We went

24:24

back and checked what House Republicans were saying

24:26

about impeachment in 2019. This

24:28

is what they're saying now. I promise you

24:30

the brazen hypocrisy will stun you.

24:33

But first, Richard Louis is here with some more headlines. Good

24:35

evening, Richard. Thank you, Mehdi. Other stories

24:38

are watching for this hour. Biden plans to

24:40

send a team to Detroit, quote, early

24:42

in the week to help resolve the United Auto Workers

24:44

strike, according to a White House official. The UAW

24:46

saying it spoke with GM and

24:49

had productive conversation with Ford today, but

24:51

rejected an offer from Stellantis. The

24:53

union says they will resume talks Monday. North

24:56

Korean leader Kim Jong-un has returned

24:58

to North Korea after a week-long trip to Russia.

25:01

President Vladimir Putin hosted Kim on Wednesday,

25:04

raising global concerns that North Korea may

25:06

provide military support for Russia's

25:08

war in Ukraine. And Atlantic Storm

25:11

Lee weakened after making landfall

25:13

earlier this weekend. That storm brought destructive

25:15

winds and torrential rains to New England and

25:18

Canada's southeast. Forecasters

25:20

say the storm will disappear early

25:22

this week. More of the Mehdi-Hasan show

25:24

for you right after this break.

25:32

Unprecedented. That's what House Republicans

25:34

were saying in 2019 when Democrats

25:36

launched their first impeachment inquiry into Donald

25:38

Trump for extorting Ukraine for

25:40

dirt on Joe Biden. But in the wake

25:42

of Speaker McCarthy this week announcing an impeachment

25:45

inquiry into President Biden, those same Republicans

25:47

are all of a sudden gung-ho on impeachment

25:49

and on impeachment inquiries, even

25:52

by their standards, the hypocrisy is breathtaking.

25:55

And we have the receipts. Roll the

25:57

tape. Our

25:59

job is to let... not

26:01

to continue to investigate something in the back

26:03

when you cannot find any reason to

26:05

impeach this president. That's why today

26:07

I am directing our House

26:10

committee to open a formal impeachment

26:12

inquiry into President Joe Biden.

26:15

The American

26:15

people understand this. They want to get beyond

26:18

this very partisan impeachment. I've been supportive

26:21

of the impeachment inquiry going back to July, Brian. There

26:23

aren't the votes to do this, right? So you're

26:25

playing this game in the Judiciary

26:27

Committee. I think we can get the votes, but you don't

26:30

need that to move forward. I think that

26:32

Speaker Pelosi overreacted. I mean,

26:36

impeachment inquiry is unprecedented.

26:39

I'm very happy that we have the impeachment

26:41

inquiry. Speaker Pelosi needs

26:43

to end this infatuation with impeachment.

26:46

We've been talking about bringing impeachment

26:48

inquiry for months. They're what's

26:52

coming up. Author

26:55

and activist Naomi Klein on how she grades

26:57

President Biden's words and actions on

27:00

climate change. Plus, don't forget

27:02

you can listen to the Mehdi Hasenjo anytime free.

27:05

Wherever you get your points. At

27:14

this point, it is crazy to deny

27:16

that we're in the midst of a dangerous climate

27:18

emergency. According to NASA scientists,

27:21

this past summer was the hottest on Earth

27:24

since global recordkeeping began in 1880. And

27:28

yet President Biden, who has bragged about the

27:30

record money he has put into fighting climate change, still

27:33

hasn't issued a formal declaration of a

27:35

climate emergency, which prompted thousands

27:37

of protesters to march in New York today ahead of the

27:39

United Nations General Assembly, urging

27:42

world leaders like Biden to take

27:44

action. So is there a disconnect

27:47

between the existential threat of climate change

27:50

and the response to it from this White House? Earlier

27:53

this week on my Peacock show, I sat

27:55

down with author and academic Naomi Klein, known

27:57

for her activism on climate change. to

28:00

discuss her fascinating new book, Doppelganger,

28:02

a trip into the mirror world. Here's

28:05

part two of that interview, specifically on the climate.

28:10

Naomi Klein, you talk a lot in your book,

28:12

Doppelganger, about the language of the left

28:15

and how leaders on the right

28:18

have capitalized on that language and appropriated,

28:20

but leaders on the left in the center have also

28:23

used language to try and give the impression

28:25

of progress. Is that something you

28:27

think President Biden is guilty of when it comes

28:30

to his climate change agenda? Or do

28:32

you think his climate change agenda is actually quite radical

28:34

for a democratic president? His people would say,

28:36

it's record investment by the inflation reduction. No

28:38

one's ever spent this much money on the climate.

28:40

The tricky thing about the climate crisis is both

28:43

of those things can be true at the same time. It

28:45

is absolutely true that the

28:47

IRA represents a historic

28:50

investment in green infrastructure,

28:53

clean energy, electrification

28:56

of vehicles, and all of that

28:59

is very much what we need. But

29:02

that addition also needs

29:04

to be coupled by some subtraction because

29:07

we have kicked the can on climate

29:10

down the road for so long that there

29:12

is, the road, it's not just that we've run out

29:14

of road, the road is melting. If

29:17

we think about some of the things that have happened this summer

29:19

in Phoenix, like people getting third degree

29:21

burns because they

29:23

fell down. I mean,

29:25

just beyond horrific.

29:27

This has been an extraordinary

29:29

summer of climate disasters.

29:32

And I really hope that it puts

29:34

us on emergency footing. And when you

29:37

have an administration that is doing a lot

29:39

of the right things, but at the same time is

29:41

doing some really wrong things by continuing

29:43

to approve new fossil fuel infrastructure,

29:47

it sends a mixed message. And you need

29:49

that sort of leadership from above. Yes.

29:52

That is, think about the early days of COVID, daily

29:55

briefings, this is the plan. This

29:58

is what we're asking of you. I

30:01

think we need to

30:01

learn from- They won't declare climate change an emergency.

30:03

They won't declare an emergency. I also think we should learn from some

30:05

of the things we did wrong during COVID, which

30:07

is we asked a lot of regular

30:09

people. We didn't ask very much from

30:11

very, very rich people. And we allowed

30:13

billionaires to massively increase their

30:16

incomes. And that I think was part of the backlash.

30:19

So I think there needs to be, you know,

30:21

that kind of leadership. And,

30:24

you know, I think that we need to take the

30:27

profits from the dying days of fossil fuels.

30:29

And funnel it into this new

30:31

green economy. So there's a block to

30:33

that. And that is the Republican Party. You point

30:35

out in your new book, Doppelganger, that conspiracy

30:37

theorists have been really effective in demonizing

30:40

science and in particular climate science, like the

30:42

idea that environmentalists will do a lock-in

30:44

in your houses and not let you out. It's

30:46

been mainstreamed within the Republican Party. Have

30:49

a look at what Vivek Ramaswamy had to say

30:51

at the first GOP primary debate last month. Yeah.

30:54

The climate change agenda-

30:56

Oh, whoa, whoa, whoa, whoa. Oh, this is all the

30:58

climate change agenda. The

31:00

reality is more people are dying of bad

31:02

climate change policies than

31:05

they are of actual climate change. Now,

31:09

obviously that's nonsense. He ignores the fact we've

31:11

had, what, two million plus climate-related deaths

31:13

in the last 50 years. But the reality

31:15

is that is mainstreamed on the right. You're from Canada.

31:18

I'm originally from the UK. Conservative

31:20

parties in Canada and the UK and in France and

31:22

Germany are nowhere near as bad as the

31:24

modern Republican Party when it comes to flat out denial

31:27

of basic science on the climate.

31:28

Yeah, it's interesting though, because I think we're starting

31:31

to see a pivot, which is not denying

31:33

the science, but this sort of over

31:36

the top alarmism about the effects of

31:38

climate policies on regular people. And this is once

31:40

again, an example of co-opting

31:44

these concerns around working people and

31:47

so on. The trouble is there are little grains

31:49

of truth in it, right? Some climate policies

31:52

have been a little unfair for working

31:54

people. They've increased prices and so on. And that's

31:56

why we don't just need climate action, we

31:58

need climate

31:58

justice.

31:59

Because if we don't have that, it's going to fuel

32:02

the backlash. You know, it's one of the things I've really

32:04

been thinking about lately, Mattie, is what happens

32:06

to all the energy of COVID

32:09

denial and anti-lockdown and

32:11

anti-vaccine now that all the mandates have been lifted?

32:14

A lot of it is pivoting to climate.

32:16

And it isn't the same denialism

32:19

that we had a few years ago. It's a

32:21

mirroring of the COVID stuff. So they're

32:23

saying, now they're going to lock you in your house because

32:25

of carbon. And so they're not

32:27

denying climate change, but they're just saying it'll

32:29

be

32:29

the end of the world. We cannot escape the mirror

32:32

world, which is a third title to your book. Last question, when it

32:34

comes to climate action, you have described yourself as

32:36

having an ambivalent relationship with

32:38

the word hope. How do you approach

32:41

climate optimism? There's a lot of activists

32:43

who say, we need to be alarmists. We need to tell

32:45

people how bad things are and not be complacent. There

32:47

are others like the climate scientist Michael Mann, who say, you know

32:50

what, that doesn't work. We need to give people hope and

32:52

optimism and say there's still time. Where do you stand on that

32:54

debate?

32:55

I think hope is something we earn. I don't

32:57

think it's something we have like a handbag. I

33:00

think it's something we earn together through

33:02

hard work and through some

33:05

real victories. And we need to be really a lot

33:07

better at telling stories of where

33:09

we're winning. And there's just a huge climate justice

33:11

breakthrough in New York State for

33:15

not just green energy, but publicly

33:17

owned and controlled green energy, which

33:19

is great because that is a justice

33:22

solution because it means that the resources are not

33:24

going to some big companies somewhere,

33:26

but it's staying in the communities. It can reinvest

33:28

it in services. That's how you keep people

33:30

on the side. Look at what's happened in Brazil now.

33:33

Bolsonaro is gone. You have a

33:36

cabinet that has indigenous eco-feminists

33:40

who are trying to save the Amazon. We

33:42

don't hear about that as much. So I think

33:44

there are reasons for hope. They need

33:46

to be tangible. It's not just

33:49

an airy fairy thing.

33:50

No, it's not. We will have to leave it there.

33:53

Doppelganger, a trip into the mirror world. It's a fascinating

33:55

book. Naomi Klein, thank you so much for your time. Thank

33:57

you, Nettie. Pleasure. To

34:01

watch my full interview with Naomi Klein,

34:03

go to msnbc.com forward slash

34:05

Mehdi or scan the QR code

34:07

on your screen. Coming

34:09

up next, the rate at which children

34:12

are living in poverty in this country is skyrocketing.

34:14

So who gets to blame for that? I'll

34:16

tell you who should be blamed for that next.

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And

36:01

the thing is, they're not entirely off base, except

36:03

it's not that the underprivileged among

36:05

us, the so-called welfare queens,

36:08

who Republicans love to demonize with racist

36:10

stereotypes, choose to be poor. It's

36:13

that lawmakers in this country, through their policy

36:15

priorities, choose

36:18

every congressional term to doom

36:20

millions of Americans to the misery of poverty. And

36:22

that reality has never been more clear than now.

36:25

According to new data, the Census Bureau released on Tuesday,

36:28

the poverty rate rose to 12.4 in 2022

36:31

from 7.8% in 2021, the largest one-year jump on record. Poverty

36:36

among children more than doubled to 12.4% from a record low

36:38

of 5.2% the year before. And

36:43

of course, of course, Fox hosts,

36:45

conservative grifters, Republican apparatrics

36:48

immediately seized on that headline. American

36:50

fail. The return of record poverty sent

36:53

Fox's Charles Payne. Poverty has soared

36:55

under Biden, decried flailing GOP

36:57

presidential candidate Larry Elder. Child

37:00

poverty more than doubled in just one year. Hashtag

37:02

Bidenomics sniped, full of Trump test

37:04

secretary, and noted Dancing with the Stars contestant

37:07

Sean Spicer. I regret to report

37:10

there were even some on the left who tried to use it as

37:12

a cudgel with which to beat the Biden administration

37:14

and Democrats more broadly. Bidenomics

37:17

in a nutshell chirped two-time Green Party

37:19

presidential candidate Jill Stein. However,

37:22

what Stein, as well as the folks on the far right,

37:24

deliberately failed to mention is that

37:27

child poverty in particular went

37:29

up after action by the

37:31

Biden administration in the first place, reduced

37:34

it to a historic low. Recall

37:37

that in 2021, Biden and Democrats in Congress

37:39

without a single Republican vote passed

37:41

the American Rescue Plan, which one, increased

37:44

the benefits of the child tax credit, which

37:46

provides a guaranteed income to families with children, and

37:48

two, expanded the program's eligibility

37:51

to millions more underprivileged families. It's

37:54

impossible to overstate how successful

37:56

that policy was. It brought child

37:58

poverty to its lowest rate. rate ever recorded,

38:01

ever recorded. And

38:03

then last year, Joe Biden

38:06

let the expanded child tax credit expire.

38:09

Except wait, no, he didn't. He

38:11

tried to get it renewed. It was Senate Republicans

38:14

joined by that master practitioner

38:16

of democratic cosplay, Joe Manchin,

38:19

who killed it. Manchin's

38:21

reasoning? Poor families were wasting

38:23

cash from the program on drugs. But

38:27

indeed, US Census Bureau data found that

38:29

people who received child tax credit payments

38:31

overwhelmingly spent them on passing necessities

38:33

like food, rent, utilities,

38:36

clothing and vehicle payments. Who

38:39

needs Republicans pushing discredited

38:41

Reagan-era myths about the drug-addicted poor

38:44

when Joe Manchin can just do it for them? In

38:46

the words of the Nobel Prize-winning economist Paul

38:48

Krugman, the sad truth is this

38:50

didn't have to happen. Soaring

38:53

child poverty wasn't caused by inflation or

38:55

other macroeconomic problems, it was instead

38:58

a political choice. Yes,

39:01

child poverty is a political,

39:03

a policy choice. There's nothing natural

39:06

or inevitable about it. We as a country,

39:08

as a society, choose to

39:10

inflict poverty and hunger on millions

39:13

of kids. And the person to blame

39:15

for this is not Joe Biden, not most Democrats

39:17

even. To all of the Republicans

39:20

and Joe Manchin,

39:22

I have to ask,

39:23

how does Joe Manchin sleep at night knowing children

39:25

in this country, including in his state of West

39:27

Virginia, are going to sleep

39:30

poor

39:31

and hungry

39:32

because of him? I know

39:34

I wouldn't be able to. Coming

39:37

up at nine with Ayman Moyadene,

39:40

Congressman Robert Garcia discusses Democrats'

39:42

plans to defend President Biden from an evidence-free

39:45

impeachment inquiry and election

39:47

law in the comments. That's

39:50

next, 9pm Eastern, live at MSNBC, but stick around because Ayman joins me next

40:00

we'll discuss the wild, wild world

40:02

of Congresswoman Lauren

40:27

each

40:30

day.

40:40

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