0:00

does power corrupt or are

0:02

corrupt people drawn to power?

0:04

Our entrepreneurs who will embezzle and

0:07

cops who kill the outgrowth of

0:09

a bad system or are they

0:11

just bad people? Are

0:13

tyrants made or are they

0:15

born? Now

0:16

if you were thrust into a

0:18

position of power, would new temptations

0:21

to line your pockets or torture

0:23

your enemies, no way at

0:25

you until you gave in. Stick

0:28

around, folks who are about to discuss with the

0:30

author of the new book. corruptible, Brian

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1:10

Hey, everybody. Welcome to the Michael Steel

1:12

podcast. Now, I'm hoping

1:15

y'all had a great thanksgiving.

1:17

Your bellies are nice and full.

1:20

You had time to spend with loved ones

1:22

that you hadn't been around in over a

1:24

year. I'm sure that went well. So

1:28

But it's good to have you join us and be a

1:30

part of the conversation again.

1:32

And I'm excited about

1:36

our guest is as you heard

1:39

in the in the in the beginning

1:41

a little bit of a tease about the

1:44

author of the new book corruptible. I'm

1:47

excited to welcome Brian Klass

1:49

who grew up in Minnesota. He's

1:52

he's, you know, but he's living in Europe now,

1:54

so we'll forgive him. but he's he's a

1:56

Minnesota. He's he's a good brother. Earned

1:59

his his

2:01

refill doctor

2:03

philosophy at

2:05

Oxford University, and is

2:07

now a professor of global politics at

2:09

university College London. He is

2:12

also a weekly columnist for the

2:14

Washington Post, so I'm sure you read a lot of

2:16

his work there. Host of the award

2:18

winning power corrupts podcast and

2:20

a frequent guest on national television.

2:23

Brian has conducted field research and this

2:25

is important for what we're gonna talk about so you

2:27

understand where this brother's coming from.

2:30

He's done the work folks. He's done the research

2:32

across the globe interviewing despots,

2:35

CEOs, torture victims, dissidents,

2:37

cult leaders, criminals, and everyday

2:40

power abusers. He

2:42

has also advised major politicians

2:44

and organizations including NATO, the European

2:46

Union, and amnesty international And

2:49

why he joins us is as

2:51

you got from the tees coming in,

2:54

he's written a new book, corruptible. who

2:56

gets power and how it changes us.

3:00

And this book, as I said to Brian, before

3:02

we started this conversation, when

3:05

I was reading it, it was like this man has been

3:07

in my head. He just he's

3:09

hitting all the right the the right

3:11

tones. Brian, welcome to the podcast,

3:13

bro. Oh, it's so great to be

3:15

here. Absolutely. So okay.

3:17

So there there are lot of different places

3:20

that we can start. with

3:23

with your book. But as I noted coming

3:26

in and I wanna go back

3:28

to it because I think it's important at the very

3:30

beginning in the sort of

3:33

in the teas to our conversation.

3:36

I I started in the introduction. And

3:38

in in the introduction, you kinda

3:40

asked some questions, which I thought were

3:42

very important questions. Does

3:45

power corrupt or are corrupt people

3:47

drawn to power? Let's start

3:50

there because I

3:52

think a lot of people don't get that

3:54

right most of the times. What do you say?

3:58

Yeah. I mean, so the the answer is

3:59

that it's both, but it's

4:02

a much more complicated story than that

4:04

sort of whitty cocktail conversation

4:06

of somebody saying power corrupts absolute power

4:08

corrupts absolutely and then you move on. Right?

4:10

Right. I mean, I I think I think there's

4:12

a much more interesting thing

4:15

that's happening. And and what I mean by

4:17

that is, yes, power

4:19

hungry people are drawn to power, and

4:21

they're better at getting it. and they're better at holding

4:23

onto it. Good people who go

4:25

into power get corrupted. So

4:27

that's pretty bleak picture. Mhmm. But the

4:30

really important thing that we often don't talk about

4:32

is that critical culture, the system

4:34

around people matters a lot. So there's

4:36

a story I tell, a study that

4:38

I point to early on in the book.

4:40

that looks at a study

4:42

where they they ask people to roll a

4:44

dice, you know, forty two times. And

4:46

they say, we'll give you more money if you roll

4:48

six but you self report. You tell us

4:50

what you got. So you can lie on the on

4:52

the report. Mhmm. And when they did the study

4:54

in India where the civil

4:56

service, the bureaucracy is notoriously corrupt,

4:59

all the people who lied, including one guy

5:01

who wrote he that he got forty two sixes in

5:03

a row. They all well,

5:05

it's nothing about, hey, It's nothing really

5:08

crazy. Right. Yeah. You might as well try.

5:10

So but in in India where the where they've

5:12

got a corrupt civil service, the the people

5:14

who lied on the dice rolls to get

5:16

more money they all wanted to become civil

5:18

servants. When they did the exact same study

5:21

in Denmark, it was the exact opposite. In other

5:23

words, all the honest people wanted to become

5:25

civil servants. interests. I think that says something

5:27

really profound about, you know, the leadership

5:29

we get, and it's also a a reflection

5:31

of us. It's a reflection of of our culture

5:34

and our systems.

5:35

I see. See. And that's where you got

5:37

me with this book because

5:40

for the last oh gosh.

5:43

many years. I have been preaching

5:45

that one point, particularly during

5:48

the Trump era. and

5:50

when I look at the people go, what's going

5:52

on in southern and public and part as it,

5:55

the leadership is reflecting what

5:57

the people want. I mean, you

5:59

know,

5:59

people talk about, you know, going in

6:02

the twenty twenty cycle, oh my god. Here on

6:04

fire. I'm like, folks,

6:05

you don't realize We're here

6:07

because this is where we want to be. If

6:09

we don't want to do crazy anymore,

6:12

guess what? We don't do crazy.

6:14

It's like when you go to that party and

6:16

things start getting a little buck wild,

6:18

you have two choices. You can

6:21

either go to the host and say, dude, this is

6:23

crazy off the chain, this this is

6:25

not right we need to stop, or

6:27

you can engage. Now there's a third

6:29

you can leave, but that's probably not

6:32

necessarily the way it's going to play

6:34

out if we're honest. Right? So

6:36

you you really put your finger on an important

6:39

part of of this is

6:41

that people

6:42

kind of I

6:44

do do they live vicariously? Do

6:46

these folks? Do this do this kind of leadership?

6:49

that that the rest of us look

6:51

at the men and women in power as

6:53

as as corrupt as they are and just turn

6:55

a blind eye to it. What is that

6:57

relationship like between the people

7:01

and the despot?

7:03

Yeah. So so it's a great question. use

7:05

I'll use a basketball analogy here because I think

7:07

it it works both on the side of why

7:09

people seek power and also why the system

7:12

determines who actually gets power. So, you

7:14

know, if you have a basketball tryout at a high

7:16

school, you're not going to expect the

7:18

people who come to that tryout to be average high

7:20

You're gonna expect them to be taller than normal.

7:23

Right? That's the same thing with power. People who are

7:25

power hungry put their hat in the ring more anytime

7:27

you have a position of of immense authority. Now

7:30

at the same time, if you're a coach that runs,

7:32

you know, a series of point guards and has a three

7:34

point shooting strategy, well, it's gonna mute

7:36

that a bit. Right? Right. So there are there are ways

7:39

the same is true for power. You can you can have a

7:41

system that's really clean or you can have a system

7:43

that's really dirty. The dirty systems draw on

7:45

the bad people. The clean systems draw on

7:47

the good people. Now what I'm worried about, and

7:49

I think this is an extension for what you said

7:51

before about the Republican Party, is

7:53

that the local leadership now

7:55

is the national leadership in, you know,

7:57

ten years or fifteen years. Right. And what's happening

8:00

at the local level is, you know, people

8:02

who are good, decent public servants that wanna

8:04

volunteer to be a school board member

8:06

or close to volunteer. They get very small

8:08

pay. You know, those people are getting

8:11

death threats now. They're they're they're they're

8:13

they're facing harassment because they're approving

8:15

mask mandates in schools like the public health

8:17

experts suggest. And what's

8:19

happening is those people are just bowing out.

8:22

They're just saying this is too dirty for me. I don't want get

8:24

involved with politics. It's not worth it.

8:26

Whereas the people who are power hungry are like

8:28

bring it on. You know, let's let's let's do this.

8:31

And so, you know, my my worry

8:33

is that if if you have a political

8:35

culture that's rotten, you're gonna get rotten leaders.

8:38

So that that's what's happened

8:40

in the United States with us. But, Brad,

8:42

wait a minute. Hold up. But, okay. III

8:44

buy that. But then,

8:45

if you if you have

8:48

a political culture that's rotten, you get

8:50

rotten leaders. what

8:52

if you don't, if the political culture isn't

8:54

rotten and

8:55

you still get rotten leaders, that it may

8:57

be a little bit small because nothing's perfect.

8:59

We get that. But

9:01

you know you know what I'm talking about.

9:03

I mean, how how does that how do

9:05

you count for that in

9:06

in Yes. studies on this. Yeah.

9:09

So so there's a chapter there's a chapter in the

9:11

book called the Power Dilution. And misspeaks

9:13

to what you're asking before about why do we

9:15

pick bad leaders? because some of this is just on

9:17

us. Right? I mean, It's a horrible thing to say, but

9:19

we we do get we often a subset

9:21

of our population gravitates towards the wrong people.

9:24

I start by the way with this amazing story

9:26

of this industry in China. It's

9:28

called the white guy in the Thai industry.

9:31

And I interviewed this guy who he

9:33

basically had no experience and was asked to

9:35

go on a plane to bring

9:37

a suit and a tie and nothing else with

9:39

no experience and depose as

9:41

a quality control person at a factory

9:43

in rural China simply to give

9:45

the veneer of legitimacy because the

9:48

the Chinese investors said, oh, it's

9:50

a company from California that's really interested

9:52

in our factory. and he was involved in this

9:54

ribbon cutting. I mean, the whole thing was ridiculous.

9:56

Right? But it's about the appearances.

9:59

There's a whole bunch of stuff that goes on

10:01

when we select leaders that has to do with appearances.

10:04

So one of the things that's really depressing,

10:06

but we have to grapple with, is

10:08

that we are drawn to people who

10:10

have overconfidence and

10:13

who often provide certainty in times of

10:15

crisis and the strong man personality appeals

10:17

to a certain subset of the population. Now,

10:19

I interviewed some evolutionary psychologists about

10:22

this, which is a it's a field didn't know a lot

10:24

about before I wrote the book. But basically,

10:26

what they look at is they say, look, you know,

10:28

our brains haven't changed that much in the last

10:30

two hundred thousand years. We basically have the same

10:32

brain we always did. as the hunter gatherers

10:34

and the stone age people did. Right. But our lifestyles

10:37

changed completely. So there was

10:39

an evolutionary advantage to following a

10:41

big strong male in a time

10:43

of crisis -- Yeah. -- in the past. Right?

10:45

-- the brunt of it's gonna fight the bear for

10:47

you. Exactly. Exactly. And so what

10:49

they find is that when they do studies and they say,

10:51

who do you want to be your leader? You

10:54

know, there's all sorts of different outcomes that

10:56

come out of those studies. But if you prime people

10:58

and you say, you know, it's a time of

11:00

war or there's some sort of immigration

11:03

crisis, something like that. All

11:05

of a sudden, these statistics get skewed completely

11:07

and people gravitate towards the

11:09

bigger man. I mean, which is ridiculous,

11:12

but it's something that we have to grapple

11:14

with. And and there's a lot of stuff

11:16

like that, the more that you dig where it's like,

11:18

there

11:18

is actually these templates that

11:20

are inside of our brains. that we

11:22

end up picking leaders for very stupid

11:24

reasons. And I think we have to acknowledge that in order

11:27

to counteract it. Yes. We do.

11:29

Please. just acknowledge the

11:31

obvious. because sometimes

11:33

we pick leaders for really stupid

11:36

reasons. It's

11:38

just yeah. That's our

11:40

book right there. So so

11:44

okay. Man, this this this is so

11:46

this is so so good and exciting

11:48

because there there's so many lanes

11:50

that we can go down now. So

11:53

I'm gonna pick one. that

11:55

kinda continues on with us

11:57

because I believe the

11:59

genesis of our leadership

12:01

crisis is not the

12:04

corruption of the individuals who ultimately

12:06

become the president, the governor, the fill

12:08

in the blank, the leader. But

12:11

what we, as citizens, just

12:14

just accept. I mean, and I think

12:16

you put your finger on part of that is

12:19

Well, he said that

12:21

he was gonna deal with all these immigrants

12:24

coming across the border even though I live

12:26

three thousand miles away from the border.

12:29

or he said he was going to,

12:31

you know, provide

12:34

an easy

12:36

transition out of Afghanistan and

12:39

that was a cluster. You know what? Do

12:42

we project in such

12:44

a way that we begin to make excuses.

12:48

the and really

12:50

And we sort of become

12:53

depressed about it and then overreact to

12:55

that depression. In other words, things

12:57

get tough. The promise wasn't kept. So

12:59

then you look to the next thing or person

13:01

that comes along that makes a bigger

13:04

bolder promise, you know,

13:06

and I'm gonna build a wall or,

13:09

you know, I'm gonna end, you know, fill

13:11

in the blank as we know it. How do

13:14

we continue to feed into that

13:16

if at the end of the day, you kinda recognize

13:19

that this is really probably a stupid

13:21

reason to pick someone to

13:23

lead my business, to lead my country,

13:25

you know,

13:26

whatever. Yeah.

13:27

I mean, some of this is down to to

13:29

partisan tribalism. And I think that's

13:32

one of the big problems where where we actually

13:34

readily accept worse leaders

13:37

if they're part of our team, so to speak. There's a study

13:39

I point to in the book that I found just so depressing.

13:42

which is they had this task

13:44

that they had people, you know, people

13:46

participate in. And they said,

13:48

you know, you can have your team leader be this person

13:50

or that person. And they showed them all this information

13:53

about their their choice. And one person

13:55

was from their universities. So it's a series

13:57

of students. Mhmm. But they were legitimately

14:00

like an objectively way worse. They had

14:02

a way worse track record at solving

14:04

the task or whatever. And then there was another

14:06

option from a rival university who had like

14:08

a perfect score. The students

14:10

always picked the one from their university even

14:12

though it was the bad the bad

14:15

performer. And there's another study

14:17

that I found just so so interesting

14:19

about how we can rationalize things depending

14:22

on constraints that are put on us. So

14:24

this is one of the best studies I think ever produced,

14:26

but it's It's called the Good Samaritan study.

14:28

Mhmm. And basically, what they did was they had these

14:31

these students who were studying to be in

14:33

Seminary. Right? They were religious the future

14:35

religious leaders. I can relate. And yeah.

14:37

And so they said they said to them, okay.

14:40

What we want you to do is we want you to prepare

14:42

a talk about the Good Samaritan parable

14:44

from the Bible. and then you're

14:46

gonna go to this other building to deliver

14:48

that that sermon about it. What they

14:50

didn't know is that between building a and building

14:53

b, there was an actor who was somebody

14:55

who is posing to someone seriously in

14:57

pain. And the alleyway was so narrow

14:59

that they had to physically step over the

15:02

person to get to the second

15:04

building So they had to basically live out the good Samaritan

15:06

story Right. -- and ask, okay, are

15:08

you gonna stop or not? Now what they did

15:10

to change it was a third of the people

15:13

were said, we're we're told, you

15:15

know, you've got plenty of time. Don't worry about it.

15:17

A third we're we're we're told you can

15:19

make it but sort of hurry. And

15:21

a third we're told you're already late. You better, you

15:23

know, get your butt in gear. And the third

15:25

we're told to hurry just stepped over

15:27

the good Samaritan. He's arriving around

15:30

around the ground. Almost all of them didn't stop. Oh

15:32

my god. As they're about to go and give

15:34

a talk, about this parable of helping

15:36

someone to eat. And so you said,

15:38

okay. You know, what is the lesson for our politics.

15:41

Right? I mean, I don't want them preach I don't want

15:43

them preaching the meal, the Well, I

15:47

think that that has a profound lesson for

15:49

our politics though where people can rationalize stuff.

15:51

Right? I mean, they end up in a system and they sort

15:54

of say, okay, they get their blinkers on and

15:56

they think all that matters that our side

15:58

wins. I'm going to do the proverbial stepping

16:00

over of the good Samaritan. I'll crush

16:02

my principles. if it means we win

16:05

this race. And I think that's what happens

16:07

to a lot of Republicans during the Trump era. They

16:09

just sort of figured, you know what? I'm

16:11

late. You know, it's it's that sort of

16:13

mentality of I've gotta get from

16:15

point a to point b and who cares I

16:17

step over. So what I was behind in the

16:19

process? That is such such such a great

16:21

example. Such a

16:24

great example and and really

16:26

speaks to the idea

16:28

inside the Republican Party, for example,

16:31

that

16:33

on the heels of Barack

16:36

Obama who a lot envisioned

16:38

as this mad socialist for

16:40

whatever reason. then,

16:43

you know, who gave us Obamacare,

16:46

you know, nationalized our healthcare, then

16:48

you move into the land of Bernie Sanders

16:50

where you know, all the

16:52

all the horrors of a Democratic socialist

16:55

and, you know, and Elizabeth Warren

16:58

and, oh my god, what they're gonna

17:00

do to us in an environment, you know, AOC,

17:03

there is this you're like, we're we're

17:05

too late that they're already beginning. And the oh

17:08

my god. You've thrown in transgendered bathrooms.

17:10

No. You know, so they're all of

17:12

a sudden, they see themselves.

17:15

pressed up against time

17:18

to stop these things from happening.

17:20

That makes so much sense in terms

17:23

of the strong man who I

17:25

I refer to Trump as the is the

17:27

quintessential PT Barnum of our age

17:29

who not only recognizes that there's

17:32

a a sucker born every minute, but

17:34

he's gotten it down to every thirty seconds.

17:36

So he can just just keep it keep

17:38

it going but it's playing on

17:41

that sense of desperation knowing

17:43

that people feel a certain way

17:46

about immigrants. So we'll build a wall.

17:49

makes them feel better. They feel a

17:51

certain way about big social

17:53

programs. So we'll cast every

17:55

you know, cast every Democrat as a socialist.

17:58

and claim that, you know, not

18:00

only are they coming for you across

18:03

the border, but when they get here,

18:05

whatever jobs are left they're gonna take.

18:09

or or send off to to China,

18:12

or you're gonna find your

18:14

your son your daughter in the bathroom

18:17

with a with a guy who's just claiming he's

18:19

a a woman. You know, so and

18:21

it's just this fierce thing. How much does

18:23

that drive? a lot

18:25

of this because it's not logical and

18:27

it goes back to, you know, picking

18:29

leaders for really dumb reasons or

18:32

poor making poor choices What

18:35

what does fear play into that in in what

18:37

you've been able to see?

18:38

I I think it plays a big role.

18:41

And and I think there's a lot of evidence

18:43

to suggest that these these fear

18:45

primers. So, like, when you're told that something is

18:47

a crisis, the American carnage speech,

18:49

right, that Trump gave early on in

18:51

his inauguration. That that

18:53

that speech is tailor made

18:56

to activate the fear response in people.

18:58

And, you know, when you do this,

19:00

when you prime people with fear messages, they

19:03

change which leaders they select. As I told you before,

19:06

size matters more. One of the things they did

19:08

is with Hyatt even. Right? I mean, presidents often

19:11

get elected if they're taller than their opponents.

19:13

There was actually there was an Australian politician,

19:15

a woman, Australian politician who

19:18

red this and broke her legs

19:20

and had them physically stretched three inches

19:23

to try to win election and she did.

19:25

Although, She didn't read the evidence

19:27

carefully enough because the effect only matters

19:30

for hype for men. So it's

19:32

the there's a there's a statistically significant

19:34

measure for men, but not for women when it comes

19:36

to heights. But also think, you know, one of

19:38

the things that III point out in the book, and

19:40

this obviously has relevance for Trump.

19:43

is that there's this trait of

19:45

psychology called the dark triad. It refers

19:48

to machiavellianism, narcissism,

19:51

and psychopathy, being a psychopath. Now,

19:53

I'm not a, you know, clinical psychologist.

19:55

I'm not gonna go go there by saying Trump

19:58

necessarily is a is sociopath or anything

20:00

like that. But but certainly the narcissism is

20:03

obvious to everybody. The machiavellian. There's

20:05

enough evidence that we can impute some.

20:07

Yeah. I'll I'll let people connect

20:09

the dots. Let's say that. But my

20:11

point is that when you look at the evidence for this

20:13

stuff, I mean, these people are very

20:15

good at getting into power, but they're just functional

20:18

when they actually wield power. And and

20:20

you saw this all the time with Trump. Right? So

20:22

so narcissists actually are pretty

20:24

good at getting power precisely because they care

20:26

about their ego. So much that they're

20:28

constantly managing it in ways

20:30

that sometimes can help them rise. Now for

20:32

Trump, it became toxic because he

20:34

couldn't stop tweeting about you know,

20:36

the interview or the the the negative

20:39

hit piece on him that he perceived as a slight

20:42

when he needed to be presidential. And so

20:44

one of the things that I think is is important to

20:46

think about for reforming this

20:48

is if we accept that dark triad

20:50

traits make you better at getting into power,

20:53

Maybe we should we should change the ways we elevate

20:55

people. So in in business, for example.

20:57

Right? This is outside realm of Trump Trump and so

20:59

on. But in business, The job

21:01

interview format is perfect

21:03

for somebody who is superficially

21:06

charming, narcissistic, and machiavellian. They

21:08

look -- Okay. -- they live, they charm you, gotta

21:10

they gotta put on a performance for forty five minutes.

21:13

Right. And so those people rise to the corporate

21:15

ranks, you know, really quickly, but

21:17

they're terrible. when they

21:19

get when they get to the top, they're really, really bad

21:21

at wielding power. So my

21:23

point is you start with premise

21:25

that worse people in society are

21:27

going to disproportionately seek

21:29

and get power. And then you sort of

21:32

try to counteract that as best you can

21:34

with reforming systems to make sure that those

21:36

people get screened out and spit out

21:39

as soon as they try to put their hat in the ring.

21:41

So

21:41

tell us about meerkats. Okay.

21:44

Sure. And how and

21:46

how we we are a little bit like

21:48

them. Yeah.

21:50

So so so meerkats. And

21:53

III talk about meerkats and African

21:55

wild dogs in the boat. No. I love

21:57

that part. Yeah. So for that

21:59

by that guy highlighted it. Yes. Yeah.

22:02

So so meerkats have

22:05

this this call that they make. that

22:07

basically says, you know, let's go

22:09

over there, and they're trying to get

22:11

the pack to move. And African

22:13

wild dog sneeze when they want

22:15

to get the pack to move. Now,

22:17

what's interesting, what's different about them is the

22:19

Meerkats. It completely depends

22:21

on the confidence of the Meerkat.

22:24

So if the Meerkat is super confident

22:26

with its move call, they're more likely to follow

22:28

it. For the for the African wild dog,

22:30

status matters. So if the sort of

22:32

alpha male dog sneezes, they're

22:35

likely to to go. But if if it's

22:37

the bottom of the pack, you need sort of five or

22:39

six or seven dogs to sneeze in

22:41

unison to get everybody to move. Right. And I

22:43

think humans are halfway between. Right? So,

22:46

obviously, people who are higher up

22:48

wheeled way more clouds in our societies. but

22:50

overconfidence and and this sort

22:52

of sense of certainty, even if it's false certainty,

22:55

moves people. And again, this

22:57

is where we go back to that that strange world

23:00

of evolutionary psychology because there

23:02

used to be a benefit to this. Right? So

23:04

if you were if you were dying of thirst

23:06

in the stone age, If somebody said,

23:09

oh, I definitely know that there's a pond

23:11

over that hill. I mean, there's

23:13

a sort of rational reason for following

23:15

them because you're gonna die otherwise. Right? So

23:17

you're gonna die of thirst.

23:20

So in the past, taking the risk

23:22

with somebody who is overconfident actually made some

23:24

evolutionary sense. Now it's just stupid,

23:26

but we still do it. We still we still

23:28

follow people who are overconfident,

23:31

never uncertain, but often wrong. Right? Right.

23:34

And that's a real problem for our society is it's

23:36

it's something that I think we need to

23:39

take a reckoning with that when people

23:41

are seriously wrong repeatedly, maybe we

23:43

should stop listening to his family. We're not pretty good at doing

23:45

that. Oh

23:47

my god. It's always the simple stuff

23:49

we get screwed up. And and that that to

23:52

me is fascinating because

23:54

when you look at when you look at

23:56

the the example of the meerkats and

23:59

the African wild dogs,

23:59

ah

24:02

How how would you extrapolate that?

24:05

Because as you've alluded to earlier,

24:08

as much as we think we've evolved,

24:10

we really haven't. We're we're, you

24:12

know, except for some

24:16

other types of social constructs

24:18

that we put together and maybe some

24:20

behaviors. We're we're

24:22

still not that far removed from, you

24:25

know, you

24:26

know, the biggest caveman, you know,

24:29

with

24:29

the biggest dick making the loudest noise

24:31

and everyone going, okay. How

24:34

how have these hierarchies evolved?

24:37

Such that we

24:39

continue to contribute to them the way we

24:41

do and and they become almost self

24:43

perpetuating because no

24:45

one stops and goes, he's

24:48

just a bad leader or she's just a bad

24:50

boss and, you know, we

24:52

just need to not do this anymore. get

24:55

the hierarchies, very much as I've seen

24:57

inside the political parties, don't

25:01

want that. It's like the it's almost a self

25:03

texture mechanism that's kind

25:05

of created. How how have you found

25:08

that?

25:08

Yeah. So, I mean, I think,

25:10

again, this speaks to some of superficiality of

25:13

how we choose who's in charge. And so

25:15

I'll I'll start with one example from that and then I'll move

25:17

to some of the more systemic things that you're talking

25:19

about here. So early on the book, I talked

25:21

about this study that's about faces

25:24

and how they affect who we select as leaders. And

25:26

there's a study, a story where

25:28

they gave children basically these these choice

25:30

between two faces and said, who do

25:32

you want to captain your imaginary ship in

25:34

this computer game? And what the

25:36

kids didn't know was that the faces weren't random.

25:39

One of them was the winner of a French election and one

25:41

was the runner-up in the French election. And

25:43

overwhelmingly,

25:45

the substantial majority of the time, the

25:47

kids picked the winner to captain their

25:49

ship, which suggests that faces actually

25:51

have a lot to do. I mean, this this whole political consulting

25:54

industry we have might be grappling at

25:56

the fact that people are making very superficial

25:58

judgments about politicians. early

26:00

on. Now, that then goes into

26:03

some other aspects of our society that

26:05

are really problematic like things with misogyny

26:07

and racism. And so, you know, one of

26:09

the things that I talk about in the book is

26:12

there's there's this discussion of the the snowy

26:14

peaks of the Vanilla Boy's problem. in -- Mhmm.

26:16

-- incorporated in political hierarchies. And

26:19

something I I talk at length

26:21

about in the book is that when people are

26:23

thinking about going into a position of power,

26:26

they're way more likely to put their hat in the ring

26:28

if they believe that someone like them

26:31

fits in. Right? And so

26:33

one of things that you you see this all the

26:35

time. I talk about this with policing, for example,

26:38

where I look I

26:40

found this video on on Doraville, Georgia's

26:42

police department. It was small

26:44

or small police department outside of Atlanta.

26:47

And the video they have when they're used to have

26:49

on their website was, you know, these

26:51

guys in military fatigues with

26:53

smoke grenades in a tank flashing

26:55

the punisher video on screen. And

26:57

it's got this heavy metal, you know, sort of death

26:59

band. And and that and that's sort of

27:01

the the video that greets people. Well, I mean, Okay.

27:04

It's it's all white men. It's

27:06

all militaristic. And if you're sort of somebody

27:09

who's not like that, are you going to apply

27:11

for that police department? The New Zealand police

27:13

department, they tried to counteract

27:16

that. They said, look, we know that there's certain

27:18

types of people who are less drawn to a gun

27:20

and a badge. than the stereotypical

27:22

cop, which is disproportionately white

27:24

male and and and more power

27:26

hungry. And so they designed

27:29

a recruitment scheme that was very

27:31

funny and aimed on rep aimed at

27:33

representing different types of people in

27:35

the police and the video they had rather

27:37

than them going around in a tank and, you

27:39

know, shooting guns and throwing hand grenades

27:41

out, it had them chasing an unseen

27:43

perpetrator, which at the end is

27:46

a dog that's still gonna purse. Right?

27:48

And on the on the screen, it says, do you care enough

27:50

to be a cop? And it's like completely

27:52

the opposite. worst world Georgia

27:54

thing. That would not work here in the US.

27:57

Yeah. Well but, I mean, the thing the thing that's amazing

27:59

about it though is

27:59

that

28:00

it worked in New Zealand in the sense that they they

28:02

didn't have quite the skew that we do. But

28:05

they did have a massive change in

28:07

the applicants. The applicants that that

28:09

applied to be police officers. They way more women,

28:11

way more ethnic minorities after

28:13

this after this ad campaign was

28:15

put out. Yeah. But real quick

28:17

on that point, did they think I

28:20

mean Okay. So let's talk

28:22

about the people who are getting coming

28:25

in the door. Do they expect

28:27

that that's what being a police officer

28:29

is? Or I

28:31

mean, because being a police officer is

28:34

probably the cult. Everything else is gonna

28:36

skew more towards the other side of that

28:38

where you're gonna be in

28:40

situations where it's gonna be like a heavy

28:42

metal video with, you know,

28:45

a lot of guns blazing noise and screaming.

28:48

Well,

28:48

I mean, I think that's true if you're talking

28:50

about the NYPD. But, I mean, you know, Doroville,

28:53

Georgia. cut ten thousand people. So it's

28:55

it's a fairly small town for people.

28:57

guess apartments are not like that. Right. But

28:59

even even still I mean, yeah, of course, there are

29:01

there are deployments of those kinds of cops

29:03

in in New Zealand, but they're a subset of the police

29:05

department. Right? You want people with a military background,

29:08

for example, in SWAT teams. It makes complete

29:10

sense. Right. But I think that you you

29:12

you start from the perspective that

29:14

you need to try to counteract some of the aspects

29:17

of power and how it attracts some

29:19

of the wrong kind of people. Right? And and there's

29:21

a lot of great people who want to be cops, a lot

29:23

of great people in police departments around around

29:25

the United States. But when I talk to people from,

29:27

for example, London's Police Department, they said,

29:29

look, overwhelmingly, our police

29:32

are great. But if you if you are

29:34

someone who's a bully or a bigot,

29:36

then the idea of being a bully or a bigot

29:38

with a badge and gun is pretty appealing to those

29:40

people. Right? So you have to try to screen them

29:42

out. And what what New Zealand was trying to do is just

29:44

simply counteract it. And I think the more

29:46

profound point the more profound point

29:49

is that it it shows that

29:51

when you try to recruit the sort

29:53

of non stereotypical person, sometimes

29:56

it can be very helpful. And I think that's true

29:58

for our politics too. Right? Like, one of the reasons

30:00

I wrote this book was because there was this

30:02

dichotomy between every time I

30:04

talk to people around me, you know, in the US, in

30:06

the UK, wherever. They're always like, all

30:08

the people I know are good and decent. you

30:10

know, like, they're all nice people. Why

30:13

why is it that every time we have leaders,

30:15

there's scandal after scandal and there's abusive

30:18

power why is there this this big

30:20

mismatch? And I think one of the reasons is,

30:23

as I said before, think we've set up in

30:25

politics in the United States a

30:27

toxic environment that isn't attractive

30:29

to people who don't want power, who just

30:31

want to serve. think that those people, especially

30:34

right now, they see the vitreous and they think,

30:37

no, count me out. You know, I'll have to raise money

30:39

nonstop. Everybody's gonna scrutinize

30:41

every part of my life, and I'll probably get death

30:43

threats constantly. So you know, there's

30:45

there's some of that that I think we need to make power

30:47

palatable to the right kind of people and

30:49

proactively recruit people for whom

30:52

power is actually not a

30:54

desire, but they would see it as a burden.

30:57

And

30:57

someone who is considering a possible

30:59

run for governor of the state of Maryland, I

31:01

I can identify with that blank

31:03

series. I'm points.

31:06

Isn't it going? Okay. Then what what am I

31:08

getting into again? My wife looks at me like

31:10

What part of your brain has shut down? Or you

31:12

wanna go back into public service after

31:15

what we've seen over the last ten

31:17

or twelve years? We're having a wonderful

31:20

conversation. My buddy Brian Closs, he

31:22

is the author of the new book corruptible who gets

31:24

power and how it changes us. We're

31:26

gonna have more with Brian right after this.

31:30

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33:53

Welcome

33:53

back everybody. Michael Steele here.

33:55

Great conversation with

33:58

the author of the new book corruptible

34:00

who gets power and how it changes

34:02

us. None other than Brian Class,

34:04

you can follow him on Twitter at bryan

34:06

Class. That's KLAAS

34:10

And so, Brian, I wanted to get

34:13

into there was I gotta pull it up real fast

34:15

because I loved this this

34:18

part of the book

34:21

is

34:21

the chapter six bad

34:23

systems or bad people. And

34:26

you start off with the great question.

34:28

It was the best way you could tease the

34:30

opening here. You go, what can you learn about

34:32

humanity? by watching how

34:34

people behave while sipping coffee at

34:36

Starbucks. In fact,

34:39

turns out quite a bit. Tell us about

34:42

that that experiment, which

34:45

really I

34:47

thought it was almost like the good Samaritan

34:50

experiment put on a much grander

34:52

scale that

34:54

really kind of put a finger on

34:56

a lot of the cultural and other

35:00

indicators of how we wind

35:02

up the leaders we end up with?

35:03

Yeah. It's a it's a great question. So

35:05

I I found these studies fascinating. And

35:08

and basically, what what it comes down to

35:11

is something called rice theory. So

35:14

rice theory is this idea that

35:16

if you come from a community that cultivates

35:18

rice, then you are more likely

35:21

to be communitarian and and and sort

35:23

of rely on your neighbors

35:25

because you can't have a successful rice crop

35:27

unless you coordinate with all the people around

35:29

you. You can't make it on your own.

35:31

Whereas if you're from an area that cultivates

35:34

wheat, you're more likely to be individualistic. Now,

35:37

that's because wheat can be made your

35:39

own. You don't have to care about whatever anyone else is

35:41

doing. This sounds like a lunatic

35:43

theory. Right? I mean, it sounds completely crazy.

35:46

But they they looked at this in China and China,

35:48

you know, you can look the same it's the same country

35:50

and, you know, it's thousands of years of history, but there

35:52

are certain sections of China that are wheat producing

35:55

certain sections that are rice producing.

35:57

Right. And what they found is that when they

35:59

did a series of studies, one of them was at Starbucks,

36:02

and they looked at, okay, how many people

36:04

sit alone at Starbucks? or

36:06

are you constantly with your friends? And

36:08

also, another thing about this is

36:10

they would set up this chair in the aisle

36:12

at Starbucks. All this is in China. Right?

36:15

And they check whether people would move

36:17

around the chair because it's blocking their way

36:19

or whether they pick up the chair and put it

36:21

back. And these these

36:23

examples are things that reflect

36:25

individualism versus sort of a more collectivist

36:28

or a communitarian mindset because People

36:30

who move the chair, they're more individualistic, people

36:32

who move around it are more communitarian. They're

36:35

the same for solo sippers at Starbucks

36:37

versus people who go to Starbucks

36:39

with their friends, it it reflects these divides.

36:41

And sure enough, the divides were

36:43

very, very strong in terms of these

36:46

backgrounds in the different regions of China. And of course, if

36:48

you run these studies in the United States, you

36:50

get totally different responses. It's the same

36:52

sort of thing. It's a much more individual culture. So

36:54

there's a lot more solo shippers and a lot more

36:56

people moving the chair. Now, what

36:59

I try to do with this knowledge is I say,

37:01

okay, there's a lot of stuff that affects our

37:03

behavior. Right? We we behave the way we do

37:05

for lot of reasons. But surely,

37:07

the systems we come from matter

37:09

a ton if even the cultivation

37:12

of our crops in our area affects our

37:14

behavior, then surely, you know, the corporate culture,

37:17

the political culture is gonna do more of

37:19

more more of an effect on us than other things.

37:21

So one of the areas I love in this in this

37:23

book is I I the weirdest thing I did

37:26

probably was I flew out to Vermont where

37:28

Paul Bremer lives. He's, you know, the guy

37:30

who ran Iraq in two thousand three. He's

37:32

now a ski instructor in Vermont. And

37:35

I took a I took a ski lesson with him.

37:37

And what I found interesting about Paul

37:39

Bremer is that, you know, whatever you think of whatever

37:42

you think of his record on Iraq, he

37:44

had a he had served with distinction

37:46

when he was an ambassador to

37:48

Norway and some other places.

37:50

Mhmm. And then he gets to Iraq. And

37:53

one of the first meetings he holds he asked

37:55

the question, can we shoot the looters?

37:57

Can we shoot the people who are stealing TVs

37:59

and so

37:59

on and ransacking bagged it? Now,

38:02

I mean, If

38:02

he had suggested that as the ambassador of

38:05

Norway, he would have been recalled immediately. Right?

38:07

I mean, that's the end of it. And and the point

38:09

I try to make with with him is Okay.

38:11

So he ends up in Iraq. He's getting,

38:14

you know, he's getting bombed with

38:16

mortar fire from al Qaeda, you

38:18

know, offshoots and all these people. affiliate

38:21

with Saddam's regime. He's got a bounty

38:23

of ten thousand grams of gold on his

38:25

head by Osama bin Laden, which I think is a distinction

38:27

unique to him as a Vermont ski instructor.

38:30

but it's one of these things where you think, okay, he's

38:32

in this horrible situation, this horrible

38:34

system. He has to make very different calculations

38:36

than he did when he was the ambassador to

38:39

Norway. And then he comes back to

38:41

the United States. I mean, the first

38:43

thing he said to me when we're on the chairlift in

38:45

this Vermont Ski Resort was

38:47

we got stuck underneath the the sort of

38:49

chairlift tower. And he says, whenever

38:51

I'm teaching kids, you know, I tell them it's lucky

38:54

to get stuck here and they they need to make a wish.

38:56

Oh, a wish. and then it will come true. And

38:58

I'm like, this is not what I expected.

39:00

You know what I mean? And

39:02

I think I think the point is that we're, like,

39:04

we're much more chameleon like than we

39:06

than we like to believe. We -- Right. -- we morph

39:09

depending on the systems that

39:11

we live in. And I I think that actually is quite

39:13

hopeful because it means it's

39:15

much easier to change systems than it

39:17

is to change people. So in

39:19

a way that gives us our political project and

39:21

our our political homework to do. Yeah.

39:23

It does in a in a lot of ways.

39:25

But III still come back to the

39:27

point that

39:28

and it really kind of I I guess, once

39:30

since you confirm for me, an

39:33

idea that I I put out there that

39:37

when I when I look at our

39:40

economy, our our,

39:43

you know, healthcare

39:46

and, you know, our race

39:48

relations in all of these

39:50

other systems that are out there. And

39:52

then I look at our politics. Mhmm.

39:55

In the past, you

39:58

know, you can

40:00

make the case that

40:03

all of those systems and the policies

40:05

that sort of royals within them

40:08

sort of dictated the political

40:11

engagement, dictated the politics.

40:13

The politics was a reflection of,

40:16

you know, our desire to have better health

40:18

care, our desire to have lower taxes,

40:21

our desire to feed more

40:23

people, whatever it happens to be. today,

40:26

we seemingly are in a position where

40:29

our politics is

40:31

dictating the outcomes

40:34

of those particular systems. So

40:37

the systems are no longer driving the politics.

40:39

The politics are driving the the

40:41

the systems itself. So we're

40:44

more tribal. We're much more insular.

40:46

We look suspiciously at each other.

40:50

We've got political leaders like

40:52

representative ghosts are, you know,

40:55

threatening to kill other members via

40:57

cartoons. And you've got

41:00

you know,

41:01

other members, you know, on

41:03

on the left who are threatening

41:06

their fellow members if they don't support

41:08

a grand spending You have

41:10

all of these -- Mhmm. -- these threats

41:13

and these this tension that sort

41:15

of blowing out of our political

41:17

system and I've used a term

41:19

infection, infecting all these

41:21

other important

41:24

systems that really can't afford to be

41:26

infected. do you kinda see

41:28

it that way? Is that a good way to look at this?

41:30

Or am I looking at it a

41:32

little bit skewed?

41:33

Now III think you're right, and I think this connects

41:35

to something that you said earlier about how it's sort

41:37

of a reflection of us sometimes too and what's

41:40

being demanded that we're sort of in exactly the place

41:42

that we want to be. I mean, at least not that

41:44

we want to be, but that's a certain segment of the population

41:46

wants us to be in. You know, I think I think the

41:48

thing with Gosar, for example, or some of

41:50

the vitreol that that exists in politics, is

41:53

it conditions the future leaders

41:56

to behave in the same way. You know, and

41:58

I think it's why accountability is so important.

42:00

I have one of the one of the chapters that I have later

42:02

on in the book is about how,

42:04

you know, accountability really

42:06

does matter. Oversight really does matter. It

42:09

affects people's behavior. And

42:11

I think when you see Gossar behave

42:13

the way he did, I mean, he he shared a video of him

42:15

murdering somebody. Right? And, like, any

42:18

other job in America, he'd be fired for that.

42:20

Right. And yet, you know, it's like we've we've set

42:22

the bar lower in Congress than we have

42:24

in corporate America over and over and

42:27

over again. And,

42:29

well, what's that gonna do? It's gonna mean that there's

42:31

gonna be more people who behave like them. It's especially

42:33

because the Republican base rewards

42:35

it. Right? I mean, one of the things that I think is

42:38

really difficult, especially in places

42:40

where it's a solid, solid,

42:42

deep red district, let's say, you know, in

42:44

in in the rural south -- Right. -- is

42:46

that to differentiate yourself, you have to

42:48

be more Trump like, you have to be more Gosar

42:50

And there's no there's no consequences to

42:53

doing that. So it's an interaction between

42:55

the the sort of elite accountability and

42:57

the demand from the base. And I think that's

42:59

what's happening in the Republican Party right now is

43:01

that the the elite accountability has

43:03

disappeared. I mean, there's there's no there's

43:05

no shame there's no consequences. When

43:09

people used to sort of say, you know, I also think

43:11

this is partly because of and this is something I don't

43:13

talk about in the book, but think it's also partly because

43:15

of the breakdown of party control to an

43:17

extent. I mean, in the past, you

43:20

know, in the past you have you wanted to

43:22

go on Fox News, you're gonna you're gonna have

43:24

to play by the rules of the Mitch McConnell

43:26

of the day or whatever. Right. Now

43:28

now everybody has their own Twitter

43:31

feed, and they can just sort of, you know, Lauren Beaubert,

43:33

who would be you twenty five years ago, she

43:35

would have been a nobody hoping to rise

43:38

up the ladder -- Right. -- over two

43:40

decades. You know? Now she's broken

43:42

out because she's become more stream

43:45

than the party, and that attracts a certain type

43:47

of person to her political base.

43:49

So, you know, it's the breakdown of sort of

43:51

the accountability structure at the top.

43:54

and then also the demand from the bottom

43:56

that's always looking for the shock,

43:58

the the sort of extreme.

43:59

And also, you know, I think, frankly, the

44:02

entertainment. I mean, think one of the things that's

44:04

a big part of the chain. That's a big part of it. And

44:06

that's why when you say the PT Barnum, I think

44:08

you're totally right because politics

44:10

has become about entertainment. in

44:12

the United States. And I think that's something

44:14

where we really have to think long and hard

44:16

about whether we want that kind of system where

44:19

the the real payoff is that we get amused

44:21

rather than get problem solved. Well, a couple things.

44:23

One, on the first point

44:25

that you on the point you just made about the entertainment,

44:28

there there was going back

44:30

to the the mid nineties,

44:33

early two thousand, a growing sense

44:36

among the political class here

44:38

in Watch and then I'm pretty astute and

44:40

sort of keyed into those folks as I grew up in as

44:42

my home. I grew up here. And so, you

44:45

know, as native Washingtonian, politics

44:48

is in the blood and you so you know how it ebbs

44:50

and flows. And during that period, there

44:52

was a growing concern about

44:54

it. You could almost pinpoint the

44:57

switch where, you know,

44:59

we have the the Washington Correspondence Dinner,

45:01

which is the big correspondence,

45:04

you know, Washington Correspondence White House correspondents,

45:06

journalists in town have this evening

45:09

where the politicians and

45:11

and the journalists kinda get in the room and

45:13

have fun and make fun of each other. Well,

45:15

then they they got to the point where,

45:18

you know, folks were inviting folks out of

45:20

Hollywood to come to the dinner. and

45:22

it became, over time, this sort of

45:25

star studded affair, which was,

45:27

like, almost like a mini

45:29

Oscar night in terms

45:31

of the anticipation and and

45:33

you could see how people dressed up and

45:35

how they behave. And but and

45:38

they grew to a point where the

45:40

dinner had become much more about the

45:42

Who's who from Hollywood and

45:44

theater and television that

45:47

would show up. and journalists

45:49

wanting to be seen with them and photograph

45:51

with them and do the walk, you know, like

45:54

the the the walk we come in.

45:56

They take photos of you

45:58

and so forth. More so

46:00

than what it was intended to

46:02

be about was journalism. And in an

46:04

ironic way, Trump broke that

46:07

because he didn't wanna play because didn't wanna

46:09

be the subject of ridicule, which, you

46:11

know, would likely have been the case. having

46:13

been the subject of that one

46:16

of I think Obama's last

46:19

next to last, correspondence

46:21

dinner. So and at that moment, sort of

46:23

broke that that mindset where

46:27

they said, Now we can take this opportunity

46:29

to focus in on what we originally

46:31

were about. This was not about going Hollywood.

46:34

And so you see that kind of spill into

46:37

our politics where a lot

46:39

of politicians now want

46:42

the want the likes want

46:44

the the glamour that comes from appearing

46:47

on all these talk shows and and,

46:49

you know, having people recognize them in restaurants

46:52

and applaud them when they walk in a room

46:54

and all the sudden, crazy. And

46:56

it's really kind of worn down

46:59

the responsibility that they have

47:01

as leaders. which then leads

47:03

to the second part, the accountability that

47:06

you touched on. How do you demo you

47:08

look at something like a January sixth commission?

47:11

Even in that instance, in the face of

47:14

an attempted overthrow of our government, no

47:18

one wants to be accountable. Yep.

47:20

I mean, I I and let me rephrase it. It's like

47:22

no one wants to be accountable. You have efforts

47:25

by some to avoid accountability. How

47:29

does that

47:30

how does that work in the context of this

47:32

corrupting process

47:34

that you that you tap into? Yeah.

47:37

I mean, III couldn't I couldn't agree more.

47:39

This is a central aspect. Accountability

47:41

is so so important. And and

47:43

and this is an area I talk about in the book. I the

47:45

one that I again, it's a study I love.

47:47

It's about parking tickets in New

47:50

York City, but it has lessons for

47:52

January sixth. Yeah. It's golden. So,

47:56

basically, up until the early

47:58

two thousands, diplomats who worked for the

48:00

United Nations had absolute

48:02

immunity from parking fines because

48:05

they were you know, they had diplomatic immunity. So they

48:07

could park wherever they wanted to. They might get their

48:09

cars towed, but they didn't have to pay for anything.

48:11

Right. And eventually, Bloomberg

48:14

finally said, no, this is crazy. There's a hundred

48:16

and fifty thousand unpaid parking tickets

48:18

from all that to the United Nations. They owe

48:20

us, like, twenty million bucks we're gonna

48:22

start enforcement. What was really interesting

48:24

is when you started, right, the beginning

48:27

of this period, the Norwegians,

48:29

the Danish the the brits,

48:31

they parked normally. Right? They they they

48:33

follow the rules. Whereas, you know, the

48:35

Egyptians, the pakistanis, a

48:37

few of these more corrupt countries had

48:39

a lot of parking tickets. And as soon

48:42

as the enforcement period happened, all

48:44

of a sudden, almost overnight, the Egyptians

48:46

parked like the Norwegians. They just stopped.

48:49

It just completely cleaned up the act. But

48:51

the really interesting thing is before the

48:53

enforcement period, before there was actually any

48:55

sort of fines to be paid, the Norwegians

48:58

who were in New York longest parked

49:00

illegally the most. So in other words, as

49:02

they got away with it more, they started to

49:04

say, you know what? I think I can test

49:06

the rules a bit, you know. Got it. It's it's

49:08

a perfect little experiment where it shows

49:10

when you get away with stuff, you get

49:12

worse. And when you get caught and you get

49:15

punished, you get better. I mean, we know this intuitively,

49:17

but there's a lot of evidence this is true. And so

49:19

with January sixth, I mean, the point that I always

49:21

make is You rightly describe it as an

49:24

attempt to overthrow the government. I mean, if

49:26

you don't punish that, what's gonna happen

49:28

next time? You

49:29

know, I mean, I think that's the real problem is

49:31

that there's going to be a more fisticated attempts

49:34

sometime in the future, and people are

49:36

not going to have got the message. This is something

49:38

really, really serious. Well, there is method

49:40

to the madness of of what

49:42

Volterra said and you noted in

49:45

in in your in chapter twelve

49:47

of the book where he said if God didn't

49:49

exist, we would have to invent him.

49:52

And that's how you introduce us

49:54

to the idea of

49:57

less than seven, as you call it, watched

49:59

people

49:59

are nice people. And

50:02

it really is, you know, when if you

50:04

want to alter behavior, then

50:06

you have to put in place

50:08

accountability. And that takes

50:11

a myriad of forms, but

50:13

it's important nonetheless that

50:15

those that that accountability

50:18

be there. So if you're gonna park

50:20

illegally, we're gonna hold you accountable,

50:23

meaning you're gonna pay the fine. if

50:25

you are going to engage in a certain type

50:27

of behavior, we're gonna hold you

50:29

accountable because

50:31

we're gonna watch that behavior. We're gonna

50:33

watch for that behavior. as we

50:35

as we get ready to roll you up out of here because I know

50:37

you you gotta go and push the book,

50:39

my friend, it's important. how

50:43

how would you how would you sum

50:45

this up for us? Is that

50:47

I thought that, you know, this

50:50

was, for me, an important part

50:53

of the book, when you when

50:55

you go through the whole thing at the end of

50:57

the day, it is Sure. -- not accountability. Yep.

51:01

That's that's the anecdote to corruption

51:03

and corruptible

51:06

things. How how how would you

51:09

sign it off. How would you Yeah. So IIII

51:12

found this research fascinating because what

51:14

what

51:14

I didn't know a lot about was this

51:17

idea of how accountability

51:19

throughout history was largely from

51:22

religion. Right? Most of the time that

51:24

humans have graced the planet. We haven't had

51:26

sophisticated police forces and journalists

51:28

and oversight of the kind we do now.

51:31

So what we used to have is just mortal fear

51:33

of god. Right? Most people were afraid

51:35

that God was always watching them and would

51:37

punish them either in this life for the next few months.

51:41

Let me let me check that box even in the twenty first

51:43

century. I've No. Anything that you think so so that's

51:45

that's still true for billions of people

51:48

around the planet. It's just some people.

51:50

It's less true for. But the thing that was really interesting

51:52

about the the sort of big god era

51:55

of human human oversight is

51:58

that it was equal. Right? Whether you were king

52:00

or a peasant, God was watching you. What I

52:02

think is a really big problem now, and we've talked about

52:04

this with Gosar and the sort of lower

52:06

bar for Congress than many employees have

52:08

in corporate America. is that powerful

52:11

people have made it so the oversight

52:13

doesn't go on them. I mean, I think lot of your

52:15

listeners will work in offices

52:17

where they're potentially being monitored while

52:20

they have, you know, while they're on their keyboard. Maybe

52:22

they're I have to, you know, punch a clock. Right.

52:24

All of the oversight is directed

52:27

at the powerless people. Right?

52:29

I mean, enron didn't get destroyed because

52:31

somebody took a fifteen minute lunch break.

52:33

when they weren't supposed to. It was because

52:35

there was no oversight at the very top. And I think,

52:37

you know, I think my point is that

52:39

the benefit of the big god era was

52:41

that the powerful people feared oversight

52:43

too. I think, you know, we have engineered

52:46

systems where a lot of people

52:48

in power get away with it because

52:50

they don't get, you know, sufficient

52:53

oversight, whereas the people who work for

52:55

them are being monitored and surveilled

52:57

and clocked. all the time. All

52:59

the time. And so think we need to invert that a

53:01

bit and actually pay a little bit more attention to oversight

53:04

to our leaders. Oh, man.

53:06

I knew I would love this conversation. And

53:08

and I knew I would love seeing you again,

53:10

Brian. It's been

53:12

a while and you have you've come

53:15

with a tort of force. It is a great work.

53:17

Corruptible. Who gets power and how

53:20

it changes us? The author is none

53:22

other than Brian Class. He is. just

53:26

just insightful in how he

53:28

sort of peels back the curtain on a lot of questions

53:30

we have about this time

53:32

that we live live in, how we got here.

53:35

But

53:36

more importantly, some of the steps

53:38

that we can take as a society, as

53:40

individuals to

53:42

turn things around. It's it's it's not

53:44

it's not as hard as we may believe sometimes

53:47

if we're willing to hold each other accountable. and

53:49

and Brian, you you do that in this

53:52

book, so we appreciate it, brother, very, very

53:54

much. Thanks for having me. It was a great

53:56

conversation. I love that. Absolutely. Again,

53:58

the book is corruptible who gets power and

54:00

how it changes us. Check it out, get

54:03

it on Amazon, or wherever you get your books,

54:05

follow Brian on winner at

54:07

brinecloss. And you can

54:10

find them at brine p class dot

54:12

com, where you could probably also purchase

54:14

book. So nice

54:17

little reading gift stuff for

54:19

family members over the holidays. Maybe,

54:21

perhaps, think So so

54:24

we we can do that for a friend. Well,

54:26

folks, that that does it for this conversation. You

54:28

know, I always love it when you step in and have

54:30

spend a little bit time with us. Don't forget

54:33

to check me out on Twitter at Michaels Steel. Don't

54:35

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54:37

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54:39

all yummy inside. give us a five

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star rating that also helps certainly

54:43

helps the folks on my back end who are looking

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at that stuff they feel good. So,

54:48

you know, until next time. Be safe.

54:50

Be well. Wear the damn mask.

54:52

Get the damn vaccine. Stop making SKUs

54:55

and little listening to stupid people.

54:57

You know better. Do the right thing. Your mama

54:59

taught you better until next time later.

55:22

Alright, America. You asked

55:24

for it. or maybe you

55:26

didn't. But either way,

55:28

we have to talk. You're just

55:31

in kind of a crazy place right now, mister

55:33

and missus USA, So we're going

55:35

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55:37

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55:40

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