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0:00
Welcome
0:00
to the podcast. I'm
0:02
Jason Walkab, founder and co CEO
0:04
of My Buddy Green, and your host.
0:08
This episode of the MEG podcast
0:10
was made in partnership with Apollo Neuro.
0:12
How would you like to get thirty more minutes
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of sleep every night? Today's
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guest, doctor Dave PhD his amazing
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innovative company, Apollo Neuro,
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have created a wearable that offers a
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real time solution to the
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problems we all Dave. Stress
0:28
and lack of sleep.
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The Apollo wearable actively improves your
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body's resilience to stress, delivering
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soothing vibrations and help
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strengthen your nervous system.
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It's safe and not invasive, so it can be
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used by adults PhD shoulder without harmful
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side effects. I wear it on my ankle
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before PhD, but it's also easy to strap
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on your wrists or clip to your shirt.
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It's proven to give you an average of thirty
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more minutes of sleep at night, but the Apollo
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wearable also improves HRV
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heart rate and variability. which
1:00
measures how you bounce back from
1:02
stress. While laddering up to
1:04
longevity and while being it's something
1:06
I'm obsessed about tracking,
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PhD the HRB benefits I've seen from Apollo
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Neuro are pretty incredible.
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So for a limited time,
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our listeners can get forty dollars
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off their Apollo wearable using
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code MBG forty.
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That's MBG forty at checkout.
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Just head to apollo neuro
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dot com.
1:27
HRV. Dave Rabin specializes in the
1:29
treatment of PTSD, depression, anxiety
1:31
disorders, and substance use disorders.
1:34
A trauma expert doctor Dave was on a mission
1:36
to help his patients gain more control
1:38
over their stress response in the moments
1:40
that they needed it. HRV focused on leveraging
1:42
the idea that our sense of touch can
1:45
signal safety to our brains and that
1:47
this feeling catalyzes a cast state
1:49
of restorative effects like lower respiratory
1:51
rate, lower heart rate, better digestion, and
1:54
sleep, and improved mental function, which
1:56
leads me to the amazing
1:58
new company he founded
1:59
with many of my friends,
2:02
Apollo leverages
2:04
all of Dave's incredible Research.
2:07
Dave welcome. Thank you so much for having me,
2:09
Jason. It's a pleasure.
2:11
So you've spent over fifteen
2:13
years studying resilience and the impact
2:15
of chronic stress on our lives. So
2:17
can you tell us a little bit more about
2:20
what that looks like? What led you to
2:22
this in general? Yeah. So
2:24
I think the thing that's really interested me
2:27
over the years since I was very,
2:29
very young, was
2:31
seeing people respond to stress in different
2:33
ways. Sometimes, you know, I saw people,
2:35
you know, who would who
2:37
are the people who are the
2:40
people we look up to most in life. Right? These
2:42
extreme athletes at
2:45
great minds who overcame, you
2:47
know, when you would listen to stories about their lives.
2:49
They overcame tremendous challenges in
2:51
their lives that push them to grow
2:53
and adapt and to really
2:56
test what they were capable of as
2:58
humans. And that really
3:00
inspired me to
3:02
think about how some
3:04
of us don't wind up
3:07
in in, you know, making that
3:09
leap. Right? We wind up getting pushed
3:12
down by stress. And sometimes even the same
3:14
people who wind up achieving greatness
3:16
HRV we, you know, look at as as
3:18
greatness in human society, also have
3:20
other times where they were not able
3:22
to overcome or had challenge, you
3:25
know, regrade challenge, both challenges overcoming
3:28
a stressful experience. And so
3:30
that always interested me
3:33
in seeing people kind of being able to
3:35
go in these different directions and and
3:37
kind of led me to start to ask
3:39
the question, well, maybe stress isn't all bad. Right?
3:41
maybe there's different kinds of stress and some stress
3:44
shuts us down PhD some stress makes us,
3:46
helps us grow PhD maybe
3:48
there's a way that we can think about this differently
3:50
PhD so that kind of inspired me to go into
3:52
the field of mental health and neuroscience of
3:55
stress looking at, you know,
3:57
how do we react to stress,
3:59
what kinds
3:59
of things can we set up in our environment to
4:02
help us overcome and adapt to stress
4:04
more effectively, to help us grow to
4:07
help us really reach our our
4:09
best selves through the process of life.
4:12
And, ultimately, it led
4:15
me to think about different ways
4:17
that we could use the tools and
4:19
the resources we have in our environment to
4:21
facilitate that process. Right? So things
4:23
like breath work, soothing
4:25
touch, soothing music, medicate,
4:27
you know, some some kinds of medications and
4:29
substances can be very helpful
4:31
in this process when used thoughtfully
4:34
and properly PhD sort
4:36
of the whole thing. Right? All the tools we have available
4:39
are are vast. We have access
4:41
to more techniques and understanding and
4:43
knowledge than we've ever had entire course of
4:45
humanity in this generation right
4:47
now. And that is an
4:49
incredible time to be alive. So I
4:51
really, over time, just started to explore
4:53
these different areas and and understand,
4:56
you know, how
4:57
do we use all these tools we have available to
5:00
give us the best lives that we can Dave. It's
5:02
very cool and and there's a lot to unpack there.
5:04
And I wanna come back to the the
5:06
big question which comes to mind
5:08
immediately for me is
5:10
you know,
5:10
adversity strikes, stress
5:13
happens, and one person is
5:15
resilient, goes on to
5:17
do great things while another falters
5:20
and never quite recovers. What Dave you
5:22
learned about those two
5:24
different cases? And what causes
5:27
someone to flourish versus someone
5:29
else to falter? It's a it's a really good
5:31
question. I I think there's, you know,
5:33
there's there I don't
5:34
have the answer to that in in
5:36
completion because there's a lot more we
5:38
still need to learn. But I can tell you what
5:40
I've learned from my work and from all
5:42
the studying that I've done, which is
5:44
that There are two major
5:46
factors here that a
5:50
very critical impact for us, each
5:52
of us in our journey. The
5:54
first is the impact
5:56
of our environment PhD how
5:58
supportive and nurturing our environment
6:01
is. So if
6:03
our environment PhD the people
6:05
around us people who, for
6:07
example, support us PhD,
6:10
you know, to use a metaphor, like, hold our
6:12
hand through the first day of school.
6:14
Right? And give us a hug when we come back
6:16
and make sure that we know that we're supported,
6:18
we're cared for, we're loved, unconditionally
6:21
supported through the process as hard
6:23
as it might be, we're gonna
6:25
have an easier time getting through. Right?
6:28
Because we know that
6:30
we have help. We have
6:32
help along the way, and then it's okay to ask for
6:34
that help. On the other hand,
6:37
there are lots of other environments that
6:39
many of us are in in different situations that
6:41
are the opposite of that or somewhere in between,
6:44
right, where we are kind of tossed
6:46
into the pool or
6:48
without without a life vest on. Right?
6:50
And just ass told to swim PhD
6:53
then we're not given any kind of
6:55
support or handholding. And then when we get out and
6:57
we've been struggling for hours or
6:59
days, you know, the person who we
7:01
look to for support and guidance or
7:03
mentorship turns to us and says, well, you
7:05
know, what's wrong with you that you couldn't do this
7:07
on your own? Right? And
7:09
so that would be the opposite extreme. And I
7:11
think that that what we see
7:13
in the studies of PTSD
7:15
in particular are that the
7:19
support that happens after
7:21
the fact, after the traumatic event,
7:23
after the challenging resilience, The
7:25
support that comes from our community is absolutely
7:28
essential in steering whether
7:30
that becomes some something that leads
7:32
to something like PTSD or mental illness. versus
7:34
whether that leads to something that facilitates
7:38
growth PhD and, you
7:40
know, acceleration of
7:43
ourselves as our full human
7:46
human beings and our full potential.
7:48
And then the other side of it, which is directly
7:50
related to the support, is what we
7:52
do ourselves. Right? Which is
7:54
HRV are we taught to think about
7:57
stress? HRV we taught which
7:59
is of course related to the people and
8:01
the environment around us? Are we taught
8:03
by our role models PhD our
8:05
friends and family? to
8:07
think about stress as something
8:10
we should avoid at all costs. And and whenever
8:12
it happens, we should ask why me?
8:14
Like, what's wrong with me that this is happening
8:16
to me? HRV are
8:18
we taught that stress is inevitable
8:20
PhD that we're going to face stress because if
8:22
we didn't face stress and challenge in
8:24
our lives, then we wouldn't have any reason to
8:26
grow. Right? Anybody who
8:29
does not have to overcome challenge in their lives.
8:31
We all know some people like that. Those
8:33
people don't really have a lot of skills
8:36
in certain areas because they didn't have to develop
8:38
them. There was no pressure that
8:40
was kind of nudging them to learn
8:42
how to do stuff differently because
8:44
everything just came easy for them.
8:46
And that is a very different
8:48
kind of of life PhD results
8:50
in different kind of mindset around
8:53
stress and discomfort, whereas
8:55
people who adopt and learn
8:57
to adopt a growth mindset,
8:59
which is absolutely critical for
9:02
success in the world is and what we
9:04
should, you know, role model for each other and what we
9:06
teach in therapy is this idea
9:08
that stress and challenges and
9:10
adversity are going to happen
9:12
no matter what you do. Right?
9:15
And if you recognize that and if you can
9:17
admit that to your self, then you're
9:19
automatically accepting that it's not because
9:21
of me that I'm facing challenges.
9:23
It's because that's just part
9:25
of life. So then what do I do? What I
9:27
do is I know that these challenges are gonna
9:29
come. I can't predict the future, but I
9:31
know it could be challenging. PhD
9:33
I do everything I can to prepare
9:36
myself to make sure that I'm in
9:38
a state of mind and body that that I'll have the
9:40
best shot overcoming it and adapting to
9:42
it and coming out like a shining bright
9:44
star on the other side. You know, but
9:46
immediately comes to mind as a debate in
9:48
parenting right now with children. there's
9:51
a school of thought that, and I get it
9:53
as a parent, you want to protect your child,
9:55
you never want to see your child suffer or
9:57
get HRV, and so there's a
10:00
school
10:00
of thought that I would say is
10:03
definitely a little bit more prone to
10:05
cobbling, if you will, and
10:07
avoiding stress. then
10:09
there are other people who are completely on
10:11
board with what you said in growth mindset,
10:14
and they have resources. And unfortunately,
10:16
maybe the kids aren't exposed to
10:19
things that that other
10:21
kids aren't exposed to in
10:23
terms of you know, I
10:25
think of Maslow's hierarchy of needs. Like,
10:27
your needs are all met, kids are safe, neighborhood,
10:30
educated, two parents, all that stuff. So but
10:32
but but the parents understand, like, we'd have
10:34
the growth mindset. And so on that end,
10:36
they'll, like, create this artificial
10:39
stress. You know, they'll drop the kid off the
10:41
woods and say go for go. They're
10:43
all these programs they have and we'll
10:45
create we'll we'll we'll manufacture
10:47
this, which I can
10:49
appreciate both sides of this, but and I don't want to
10:51
spend too much about the kid piece, but I do
10:53
think it's interesting. What what's your take
10:55
on
10:56
Huddl myth. So
10:57
those are also, you know, on
10:59
the extremes. Right? Okay. Of course.
11:02
And and Right.
11:04
I think the answer like in most
11:06
situations is that we wanna we wanna
11:08
find the balance middle middle ground.
11:10
Right? The middle ground that sits
11:12
between those two is We
11:14
want our children to
11:16
feel safe being
11:19
themselves. Right? We want
11:21
them to know that
11:23
regardless of what they're facing,
11:25
challenge wise, regardless of the hardships
11:27
of life, that they are loved
11:29
unconditionally, they are supported emotional,
11:32
and they can always come to us and turn to us
11:34
as parents when they're struggling. Right?
11:36
And that if they need something, we will
11:39
not necessarily solve the problem for
11:41
them, but we're certainly not gonna make them
11:43
feel bad about the problem they have. We're not
11:45
gonna blame them for it. And we're not gonna
11:47
make them not wanna talk to us
11:49
because that is defeating of the purpose.
11:51
Right? There's the the shame
11:54
that we often accidentally impart
11:56
to our kids or our students
11:58
is something that is often
11:59
taught to us, but, you know, it's up to
12:02
us to recognize that the
12:04
only purpose of shame is as a teaching tool. And
12:06
once somebody's learnt the lessons from making
12:08
mistakes, then you know, shame should
12:10
be discarded PhD and we should
12:13
move forward with the lessons
12:15
that we've learned. Right? So I think the
12:17
foundation of all this, which is definitely
12:19
not tangential to this conversation. It's
12:21
highly related is safety
12:23
is at the foundation of of
12:25
it PhD safety comes down to
12:27
reminding people that they are
12:29
loved and cared for and that they can
12:31
be safe in their own skin just
12:33
being themselves. without judging
12:35
themselves. And if we can
12:37
model that for our children, then
12:39
they can overcome a
12:42
tremendous adversity. they can
12:44
overcome tremendous hardship because
12:46
and come out really even
12:48
much stronger on the other side because
12:51
they they have
12:52
access to their full self. And
12:55
if we tell if we judge
12:57
them or we express, you know,
12:59
overly overly
13:01
critical thoughts or or judgmental thoughts
13:04
or make them feel like they're not allowed to
13:06
be themselves, then they end
13:08
up sequestering those parts of
13:10
themselves away like their sensitive parts
13:12
in the case of most American men
13:14
who are taught you're not supposed to cry you're not
13:16
supposed to express emotion right,
13:18
in public. And then all of a sudden, we don't
13:20
have access to those parts anymore because we're taught that
13:22
they're not serving us, so they're not good, PhD
13:24
they're not valid. or
13:26
they're not worthy. And then all of a sudden,
13:29
we don't get the benefits of being
13:31
empathic sensitive human beings as
13:33
American men, which is obviously
13:35
a useful tool. Right? So it's just it's just
13:37
bind balance that's based
13:39
on making sure our kids are
13:41
safe and making PhD then
13:44
allowing them the opportunity to
13:46
HRV to figure it out on their own, not
13:48
solving it for them, try to figure it out on their own,
13:50
but giving them the guidance that they need along
13:52
the way to know that they're supported. Well,
13:54
so you
13:55
know, I also want to come back to this idea
13:58
that
13:58
stress is not, all stress is
14:01
not bad.
14:02
And let's talk about good
14:04
stress. bad stress and also chronic
14:06
stress. How do you think about defining
14:09
all of the above? So
14:11
thinking about what we were just talking about,
14:13
there's two terms that come from the
14:16
study of this area,
14:18
which is EU
14:20
stress, EU stress,
14:22
which represents good stress
14:24
or stress that forces
14:26
us to grow. Then
14:28
there's that's
14:29
like that's like
14:31
you know, there's lots of examples of
14:33
this, but like playing on
14:35
a sports team where you're surrounded
14:37
by your peers who are
14:39
many of whom are better
14:41
than you at that sport and then you see
14:43
them and you have a
14:46
challenge and in your mind to push yourself to
14:48
reform as well as they do. Right?
14:50
So that would be an example of you stress.
14:52
There's lots of examples of that.
14:54
Having a growth mindset, like we're talking about
14:56
earlier, seeing challenge is something
14:58
that is just another opportunity
15:00
for growth itself and
15:02
exploring what we're capable of as human
15:04
beings can
15:07
make any kind of stress you
15:09
stress. Because it
15:11
our mindset helps us to understand if
15:13
we're safe and we know we're safe,
15:15
and we're supported, then we
15:18
can reframe stressful
15:20
experiences as opportunities for growth in almost
15:22
every situation. Alternatively,
15:25
distress is what we think of
15:27
as like bad stress. So
15:29
distress being the
15:31
the opposite of you stress, is
15:34
stress that makes us feel bad about
15:36
ourselves HRV stress that makes us feel
15:38
incapable or makes us
15:40
feel unworthy or
15:42
like less less of who we
15:44
are. Right? And that stress,
15:46
I would say, in general, is
15:49
the kind of stress that
15:51
results in chronic stress
15:54
that on a multiple
15:57
times daily basis or or
15:59
all the time
15:59
consistently for some people that
16:02
they are
16:03
under, you know, duress. They're
16:05
under continuous, almost it
16:07
almost feels like oppression, like you're being
16:10
pushed down. PhD the body
16:12
responds to it in the only way it
16:14
knows how, which is the way
16:15
that it responds to a lion lurking
16:18
outside your your Right? And
16:20
then your sympathetic nervous system, the fight or
16:22
flight system that we all know and love
16:24
goes out through the roof, PhD that
16:27
system is supposed to get us out of an
16:29
actual survival situation, which
16:31
means lack of air, lack of hunger, lack of
16:33
food, lack of water, and
16:35
lack and lack of physical safety,
16:37
that system is dedicated
16:39
to that purpose and supposed to get
16:41
us out of that situation to
16:43
survival and safety. But
16:45
when we're answering too many emails
16:47
HRV we have too many responsibilities, there's too
16:49
much noise around or too much news or
16:51
have you, then that
16:53
system gets turned on accidentally
16:55
when it's not supposed to. And we perceive
16:59
survival threat when we don't have it. And
17:01
then when that persists over
17:03
multiple days,
17:05
weeks, months, years, you get the
17:07
effect of chronic stress, which
17:10
is very, very distressing
17:12
to the body, which can ultimately cause
17:15
disease. Because the body starts
17:17
diverting resources that need to go to
17:19
recovery, sleep, reproduction,
17:22
digestion, immunity, all those
17:24
resources get sent to the
17:26
skeletal muscles, the heart, the lungs, the motor
17:28
cortex, the femur center of the brain because the body
17:30
perceives that we're in a survival situation.
17:32
So it's really a resource allocation
17:35
problem. Is it fair to say that
17:36
if one is good at
17:39
managing the EU stress?
17:41
that they're probably going to be better at managing
17:43
the chronic stress, if you will, to
17:45
some degree. You know, I think about, you
17:47
mentioned sports. I think that's the best
17:50
example. I I I've said this before in the
17:52
show. III learned
17:54
more about life and
17:56
resilience and everything
17:59
than playing basketball and call then I learned
18:01
playing basketball, you know, playing in Harlem
18:03
when I was a kid and seeing what adversity
18:05
really look like. playing
18:07
in college and being
18:09
terrible and losing and losing
18:11
and figuring out at the end how to win and
18:13
we started to win.
18:16
PhD I think in terms
18:19
of of who I am today,
18:21
it played a significant role.
18:23
And I and I think if you are able
18:25
to manage the EU stress, you develop
18:27
to your point, you have that growth mindset,
18:30
not to say, when you
18:32
have that chronic stress, when life feels
18:34
like it's piling up, and you feel like
18:36
it's crushing you, that that's
18:38
real. But it's safe to say, I
18:40
think if if you're good, at
18:42
the EU stress, you're probably gonna your
18:44
resilience level for the
18:46
chronic stress is probably increase
18:49
than the average person
18:51
who who gets stressed
18:53
very easily. And I'll stress very easily in
18:55
terms of the good stress, a little adversity, you
18:58
know, they're they they get the wrong order of coffee
19:00
in the morning and it ruins their day. Maybe
19:02
not the best example, but I love
19:04
coffee. I drink coffee.
19:06
So, you know, that that actually I would be affected by
19:09
that, but a little bit, but it would Dave ruined my
19:11
day. No. I mean, that's a great example. I mean, that's like
19:13
leaving work and then hitting traffic and ruining the day.
19:15
Right? It's like -- Yes. Yeah. It's a it's
19:17
it's a I mean, yeah, you're you're
19:19
definitely on the right track. And I but I
19:21
think there's a nuance there that's
19:23
important because what you're describing
19:25
in in essence is the
19:28
phenomenon of resilience.
19:30
Right? Resilience
19:32
is how quickly HRV we
19:34
able to bounce back from whatever is knocking us
19:37
down? If that's what resilience
19:39
is, then if you
19:41
think about stress
19:43
as just information
19:45
or or situations,
19:48
information and situations coming
19:50
into our brains and our
19:52
awareness Then when that comes in, that that stress could be in the form
19:54
of email. It could be a form of news. Like
19:56
we're talking about earlier, it could be the form of
19:59
athletic. challenges. It can be the
20:01
form of traffic. Right?
20:03
Too many responsibilities. All these things
20:05
are information that is coming into
20:07
our awareness, that is giving us a
20:09
sense of some kind of stress. Ultimately,
20:12
when that comes in
20:14
PhD we first face it, we address
20:17
it, there's an opportunity there.
20:19
This is also what we teach in in therapy
20:21
is that recognizing the this opportunity
20:23
is critical. This opportunity is
20:25
when stress comes in, we have
20:27
the choice to choose. Am I
20:29
going to think about this as you stress
20:31
or distress? Right? Am I
20:33
going to think about this as Hooray,
20:36
another opportunity for growth. This is gonna be
20:38
hard, but I'm gonna be better at the end for
20:40
it. Or am I thinking about this as,
20:42
oh, god. Why me? Another another thing
20:44
I have to deal with today. Right? And
20:46
then and then the cycle goes down of, like,
20:48
self judgment. What's wrong with me that this
20:50
stuff happens to me? Right? everybody, when we grew
20:52
up, there was shirt that said, the shit happens shirt. You
20:55
probably remember. Right? Oh, sure. Yeah. I'm not you
20:57
know, why does this shit always happen to
20:59
me? Right? Well,
21:01
shit just happens. So either
21:03
you accept that and you
21:05
turn your stress into you stress
21:07
right off the bat, or you deny
21:09
it and resist it. And as the Buddha say, you
21:12
create suffering by resisting
21:15
the inevitable. The inevitable
21:17
being we will be stressed. So
21:19
it's about just so a lot of it is
21:22
is trying to limit what
21:24
we're exposed to and what comes in, so we're not
21:26
overwhelmed and over stimulated all the
21:28
time. Creating the environment
21:30
ideally as much as we can and we want to
21:32
be in the mix as happy and fulfilled
21:34
and joyful and supported But
21:36
also, what do we do when that stuff comes in?
21:38
Do we choose to look at it as a growth opportunity?
21:40
Or we choose to look at it as an opportunity to judge
21:43
ourselves for not being good
21:45
enough? or for not being better than we should as bad
21:47
as good as we should be. Or we think
21:49
we should be or we're taught to be.
21:51
Right? And that is very empowering
21:53
for people because most of us don't even realize we have
21:55
that choice. You know, I am not
21:57
a boxing fan or a Mike Tyson fan,
22:00
but there's a great quote. Everyone
22:02
has a plan until they're punched in the face.
22:05
Great quote.
22:06
But I think that
22:08
it's it's, you know, and at the same
22:11
time. Right? It's
22:12
what do you do when you
22:14
get punched in the You still have a
22:17
choice as as as a impressive
22:19
and unpleasant as that might be,
22:21
you still have a
22:24
choice. Right? You have a choice. to
22:26
punch
22:27
back, to
22:31
run, to try, to
22:34
tactfully appeal to the person's
22:37
sense of humanity PhD maybe
22:39
be diplomatic. Right? I
22:42
can't tell you, you know, hypothetical
22:44
situation, which is gonna be the best option.
22:46
But the point of it is that I
22:48
think we often forget is
22:50
that there is still a choice. We
22:52
still have the ability to choose
22:55
the outcome of the situation
22:57
in some respect. PhD sometimes that choice has to
22:59
be made in a fraction of a second in
23:02
this particular punch in the face
23:04
scenario. Assuming assuming assuming
23:06
we're in the ring PhD we're all professional box officers,
23:08
of course. Right.
23:11
Right. And and other times, you
23:13
know, we have, you know,
23:15
thirty seconds or hours to make the
23:17
decision. And so it's but it's really
23:19
about remembering
23:21
that we have a
23:24
choice by being
23:27
aware of what's happening and
23:29
being aware of that choice. And so
23:31
this is actually why I love the
23:33
work that we do so much is
23:35
because as therapists, as psychiatrists, you
23:38
know, the tools that we
23:40
use and everything from the natural
23:42
tools like deep breathing and soothing
23:44
touch PhD patient, mindfulness
23:47
HRV all about expanding awareness
23:49
to empower us to choose. And
23:51
as soon as you start to do those
23:53
things, you realize that the body
23:56
and the mind are
23:58
actually much more powerful than we were
23:59
maybe taught they were. and that you have more
24:02
access to tools that can help you. And
24:04
then, and for those who've never learned how to do
24:06
that on their own, like the breath work and
24:08
meditation PhD and and yoga and these
24:10
things. You know, there are other tools that
24:12
you can use like Apollo and
24:14
psychedelic assisted therapy and other things that are
24:16
awareness expanding tools.
24:19
But but it's it's really goes back to
24:21
that awareness, which is not and
24:23
training our awareness mindfully,
24:25
which is not new to us. This
24:27
is stuff that's existed for thousands of Dave. So
24:29
in terms
24:30
of tools and data,
24:32
you know, something which
24:34
which I look at,
24:36
all the time is heart rate variability. Can
24:39
you
24:41
talk a little bit about
24:44
how HRV
24:46
can provide insight PhD do
24:48
our ability to manage stress. To
24:50
me, it's a clear signal
24:52
of how stressed I am HRV how much
24:54
sleep I've had or if I've or if there's
24:56
an illness that that's coming on or
24:58
I'm coming out of it. That's my take? What
25:00
what's your take and what we can learn from
25:04
HRB? I I mean, I would say
25:05
that's accurate. I think the challenge
25:07
with HRB is Dave more of
25:09
how you measure it and and how often you measure
25:11
it because not all devices
25:13
measure HRV with equal
25:15
accuracy or precision. So
25:17
in the lab, we measure it with
25:20
an EKG machine where you're sitting
25:22
still wired up, you
25:24
know, for one to three minutes to
25:26
get an accurate measure with you not moving
25:28
or doing anything because any
25:30
movement or anything you do or think
25:32
about can make
25:34
your HRV change. So
25:36
in in that respect, the
25:38
devices that tend to have the most accurate
25:41
HRV measurements on the consumer level are
25:43
things like or ring, which
25:45
has an algorithm that makes sure that your
25:47
HRV I have one too, but I I --
25:49
Yeah. -- PhD it on today. but the
25:51
HRV makes sure that or shows
25:53
that your that your
25:57
in terms of the
25:59
o ring, it's it's only assessing it at
26:02
rest. So when you're not moving, that's
26:04
when it starts to check to measure your heart rate
26:06
and your HRV. PhD so then average over time
26:09
and then that average gets trended over
26:11
time. So in the lab, you can look at
26:13
HRV in a moment, in the
26:15
real world, HRV in the moment is
26:17
very hard to measure because we're always
26:19
doing stuff. We're always moving. We're
26:21
always thinking. We're not at rest that
26:23
often unless we're in bed not moving at
26:25
all. And so it's
26:27
so that there's a challenge there and
26:29
ordering's probably the most accurate consumer
26:31
wearable for that. But to your point,
26:33
it is HRV is
26:35
one of the most accurate measures of
26:37
resilience in the body
26:39
and it's impacted by
26:42
things like getting great deep sleep,
26:44
critically important for HRV. It's probably the
26:47
most important PhD then second to that is like
26:49
soothing touch, breathing,
26:51
soothing intentional breath breathing,
26:53
soothing music can do it,
26:55
yoga practices, same things we're talking about
26:57
before, meditation, mindfulness, float tanks.
27:00
Right? All of these kinds of practices that
27:02
help us to restore a sense of control
27:04
and balance in our bodies are
27:06
all things that boost vagal nerve
27:08
tone HRV parasympathetic tone in
27:10
our redirecting resource to the recovery
27:12
nervous system, which then slows
27:15
our heart and then increases our HRV.
27:18
And that was actually part of how we discovered
27:20
Apollo because people with PTSD have
27:22
very, very low HRV have
27:24
you quantified low just to get people baselined.
27:27
It did differ for everyone but very
27:29
low being, like, less than twenty.
27:32
not
27:32
all means. So if you're
27:34
in the less than twenty range, then
27:36
that means your body is in
27:38
a state of very, very poor recovery.
27:41
So that means you're more likely to make
27:44
mistakes, more likely to
27:46
perform inconsistently, cognitively,
27:48
and physically. more
27:50
likely to get injured because you're gonna make more
27:52
likely to make mistakes you're
27:54
less able to focus consistently
27:56
PhD you're probably getting pretty poor sleep.
27:59
or you have some emotional or other
28:01
stressors around in your life that
28:03
are distracting you and putting you into a
28:05
stress state, but you're not recovered. not
28:07
going to be in a state to take on
28:10
really, you're not going to overcome challenge
28:12
well in that state. So
28:14
those are metrics that elite athletic coaches and
28:16
trainers use PhD the military use to determine whether or
28:18
not somebody is gonna be a starter or
28:20
ready to go on a mission. Because
28:22
if you're in a state where your HRV is
28:24
that low or your HRV is in your
28:26
bottom twenty percent of what your HRV normally
28:29
is, then you're probably
28:31
not in a position to perform at
28:33
your peak. So under twenty
28:35
is is is
28:36
low and not ideal. What
28:39
what's great. And again, it varies. Everyone's individualized,
28:41
but if you could give us
28:43
a sense of the opposite end
28:45
of the spectrum. So
28:47
the nice interesting thing about HRV is there's no peak.
28:50
Right? So you can literally
28:52
have your your HRV
28:55
can be as we don't, you know, it could
28:57
be as potentially high as
28:59
as it can go. We This is the
29:01
idea of unlimited potentially
29:03
unlimited human potential. Right? We know
29:06
what these stressed humans look
29:08
like. Now the question is that
29:10
I think it's even more exciting is what do
29:12
the ultimate humans look like? Like,
29:15
what do we look like when we are in a
29:17
position of
29:18
complete safety
29:21
that
29:21
we at least have have, you
29:23
know, feeling safe in our own skin, at least we've
29:25
gotten to that point so that we
29:27
can give ourselves the opportunity to explore
29:29
what our full potential could be.
29:31
HRV is kind of an interesting metaphor
29:33
for that because it doesn't have a
29:36
peak. I know people who are in their 60s, who
29:38
are, you know, former athletes
29:40
and military folks PhD have their
29:42
HRV in, like, the two hundred and
29:45
thirties on a regular basis. Like, these people are fine
29:47
specimens of humanity, and it's so impressive.
29:51
Wow. And so, you know, the,
29:53
you know, Who knows how how good it
29:55
could be? The point is we want it to
29:57
trend up. So
29:58
regardless of where your HRV is at
29:59
with any of these devices, that you're
30:02
measuring it with, the most important thing is
30:04
it's going up. If it's
30:06
going down consistently over
30:08
time, that means that you're something you're doing or
30:10
multiple things you're doing in your life
30:12
are not contributing to your recovery where they're
30:14
literally just taking away from your
30:16
recovery or you're performing too hard PhD you're not
30:18
recovering enough. So it's a sign
30:20
of how balanced we are between
30:22
as traditional Asian, Chinese
30:24
medicine, practitioners talk about yin and yang.
30:26
Right? Output versus input.
30:29
If our output is too great and it's
30:31
not balanced with enough taking in,
30:34
then
30:34
we are going to have
30:36
unbalanced lives,
30:36
and that's gonna be reflected as a low
30:39
HRV. And
30:40
inverse relationship with resting heart rate,
30:42
you want HRV to continue to be
30:45
going up? resting heart rate
30:47
continuing to be trending down.
30:51
Correct. And
30:52
since your heart beat, the
30:55
more time between each beat therefore PhD more opportunity there
30:57
is for your variability.
31:00
And so
31:00
let's segue to
31:03
You know, we're spending a lot of time. We
31:05
talked about aura, stress, sleeps, you
31:08
know, let's go to stress and sleep for
31:10
a minute. when
31:12
we are stressed, because look,
31:14
as we're all acknowledging, stress happens.
31:16
You can't avoid it. You can't eliminate
31:18
it. You gotta manage it. PhD
31:20
when you are stressed, how
31:22
do you ensure you get a good night sleep?
31:24
because it happens. It's gonna
31:27
happen. And it does affect your sleep PhD it
31:29
affects my sleep and I'm really stressed and I'm
31:31
pretty good sleeper. What can we
31:33
do? What we know we're stressed? and we're
31:35
dreading going to sleep because we know it's not
31:37
gonna look good. So
31:39
so so a couple different
31:42
things. Right? I think that if you think about what
31:44
HRV can teach us about this, when
31:46
we're stressed, our heart
31:48
rates going up and our HRV is
31:50
coming down, So
31:53
that means that our body is
31:55
taking resources away
31:57
from our recovery and rest
31:59
nervous system, the parasympathetic nervous system
32:02
diverting them to
32:03
skeletal muscles PhD diverting them
32:06
to the heart and the lungs PhD ever cortex
32:08
of our brain that is responsible for movement
32:10
and getting out of the situation in
32:12
our fear center, all of which are
32:15
not useful when we're trying to
32:17
enter the vulnerable state of deep sleep, where
32:20
we are potentially paralyzed.
32:22
Right? deep
32:24
sleep and rem sleep, we are
32:27
defenseless effectively, physically
32:29
defenseless. So if we
32:31
want to be able to enter one
32:33
of those deep restorative states, then
32:35
we have to remind
32:38
ourselves as challenges it might be
32:40
or as much as we have not learned to do
32:42
it. We have to remind ourselves that
32:44
we're safe. Right? We have to remind
32:46
ourselves that we are safe
32:48
enough to be
32:48
able to fall asleep.
32:51
And
32:51
so when and
32:53
then when we do that using things
32:55
like deep, slow emotional breathing,
32:57
I have a really my
32:59
favorite technique is is if, you know, it's relatively simple. It's just
33:01
breathe the way you breathe when you're sleeping.
33:04
Right? Slung, slow inhales hold
33:06
for a second. slow
33:08
exhales. It can be about five seconds
33:10
in. Hold for a second. Five or six
33:12
seconds out. And you just keep doing that and
33:14
try to fill your lungs as deep as you can.
33:17
and empty them as much as you can
33:19
on every exhale, and
33:21
then your body starts to wind
33:23
down and you're starting to tell your body,
33:25
hey, you're safe. you're safe
33:27
enough to pay attention to this breath, that means you're safe enough to
33:30
fall asleep. Right? Soothing
33:32
touch, whether you apply it to yourself or you have
33:34
a loved one, also does the
33:36
same thing. That's why
33:39
it's
33:39
harder to sleep without without
33:41
blankets. Right? Because the blankets
33:43
give you a sense of comfort that allows
33:45
you to feel soothed PhD
33:48
why it's often easier to sleep with somebody
33:51
else rather than by yourself. because
33:53
you feel soothing, it feels safe, having that contact
33:55
with another person cuddling with
33:58
you. Right? Or an animal or
33:59
a pet. Right? These kind
34:02
of are relatively
34:04
universal to human nature.
34:06
I
34:06
think those those, especially the breathing and
34:08
the soothing touch, you do it or or
34:11
somebody else. Or and one of the
34:13
other techniques is my favorite is
34:15
called progressive muscle
34:18
relaxation. which is where you basically reach out
34:20
with your fingers and toes as
34:22
far as you can and you stretch them
34:24
as far as you can like a reaching
34:27
stretch while you're lying down in bed and then you
34:29
stretch for five seconds as you breathe
34:32
in and as you relax and you
34:34
breathe out. PhD then you kind
34:36
of repeat that cycle going all the way up your body, just drawing your awareness away
34:38
from your thoughts about earlier
34:42
that day or things you need to do the next day or
34:44
wherever else your mind could go because our mind's gonna
34:46
be anywhere and then drawing your
34:48
attention back into your body, which is
34:51
enjoying the comfort of your
34:53
sleeping bed nest area.
34:56
And so but these are again all
34:58
difficult challenges.
35:00
Right? So If you haven't learned how to do these techniques, starting to do
35:02
that can be tricky. It could take
35:03
time. They don't always work right away. They can't work
35:06
fairly quickly, but it can take a little bit
35:08
of time. sometimes a couple days
35:10
to get the hang of it. And so that's why
35:12
we developed Apollo because Apollo gives the
35:14
benefits of soothing
35:16
touch to the body by, which could be measured by increasing
35:18
HRV. And so breath
35:20
work up until APOLLO was developed
35:23
Dave were no wearables that
35:25
increased HRV through this method
35:27
of delivering touch to the body or through
35:29
any method. And so we evaluated the
35:31
breathing and the way that soothing
35:33
touch works and the way that
35:35
movement stretching works and and all and
35:37
biofeedback and all these things. And then we figured
35:39
out that why those work? Well, they work
35:42
because they increase, they improve the balance of the stress
35:44
response and the recovery response and nervous systems by
35:46
helping us feel safe and in
35:48
control. And you see that because HRB goes up
35:50
very quickly,
35:52
So what if we could create a
35:54
wearable that could deliver some of those benefits for people
35:56
without them having to do anything? because most people don't
35:58
know how to do this stuff. I never learned any
36:01
of this So why should we expect, if I'm a doctor, I never let
36:03
I do this, why should I expect my patients
36:06
who Dave, you know, to to learn how
36:08
to do this as kids. It's hard. It's
36:10
legitimately hard. PhD so
36:12
Apollo came out of that understanding of
36:14
HRV and just how to help people sleep
36:16
better because it's legitimately challenging. I
36:19
I
36:19
love it. And I I wanna spend a
36:22
bit more time on
36:23
touch and segue to
36:25
to Apollo and and the science.
36:27
because we don't talk about touch
36:30
enough in the conversation of stress. You
36:32
know, breath work, got it, you
36:34
know, stretching, yoga, exercise,
36:36
got it. And nutrition plays a
36:38
role, you know, got it. But
36:41
we don't talk about
36:44
touch. So though What what
36:46
is the Let's talk about the
36:48
science behind touch and
36:50
segue to Apollo because
36:52
I I think it's so powerful.
36:54
So the science
36:56
behind touch is one of my favorite subjects
36:58
because it's unfortunately
37:00
often neglected in modern society,
37:02
especially the western world. Like,
37:04
the UK and the Americas, but it
37:07
is as old as the
37:09
oldest mammals. Right? If you go
37:11
back to the most ancient mammals,
37:14
they all nurse their young and cuddle their young to provide
37:16
sense of safety to them. And that's in
37:19
PhD and the nervous system
37:21
that we have evolved in
37:23
a way that
37:24
is stemming back,
37:25
you know, all of those many millions of
37:28
years to these ancient animals
37:30
where we have
37:32
very tightly tightly wired
37:34
nervous systems that go from our skin
37:36
all the way up to the center of our brains
37:39
that deliver signals that
37:41
say, if you're effectively, if you're safe
37:43
enough to feel this soothing gentle
37:45
feeling right now from someone that
37:47
you trust, like a parent
37:49
HRV a friend, then you can't possibly be running
37:51
from a lion right now. Right? There can't
37:54
Our bodies would not allow us
37:56
to pay attention to the feeling
37:59
that a pleasant feeling of somebody holding our hands or getting as a
38:02
hug, if there was a bear
38:04
outside tent, we would be running
38:06
as quickly as
38:08
we could. PhD we
38:10
would not be enjoying that hook.
38:11
Right? So the body has
38:14
highly evolved these
38:16
pathways, which
38:18
is critical to understand because, again, this is not unique
38:20
to humans. Right? Humans are a derivative
38:22
of every single animal that came for us.
38:25
PhD so we have these
38:27
tightly wired neural networks and Eric Kandell who
38:29
won the Nobel Prize in two
38:31
thousand demonstrated this which that
38:34
we, you know, our way we form memory goes back
38:36
to these ancient sea snails that are three hundred
38:38
million years PhD. And
38:40
they practice
38:42
safety PhD they practice fear
38:44
and when they practice these experiences,
38:47
they try to trained their their neural networks trained to
38:49
to favor safety and to avoid
38:52
fear. And so touch is is one of
38:54
the most highly
38:56
evolved ways that is what
38:58
we call preconscious. We don't need to
39:00
think about it. It just
39:02
happens when you are having a terrible day
39:04
PhD somebody gives you a hug. you
39:06
instantly feel better and you don't need to
39:08
think about it. Right? That
39:10
is kind of magical and
39:13
miraculous, but it's also hardwired
39:16
into our nervous systems and has
39:18
decades of scientific research behind it.
39:20
And I don't think it
39:22
was until the onset of COVID in twenty twenty this
39:24
really became a topic that people
39:26
were interested in at large
39:30
scale because social distancing made it obvious
39:32
that this was something
39:34
we all desperately need
39:36
more in our lives. So on
39:39
that note, we're talking about in the context, I think of family, of loved
39:41
ones, a little bit more
39:43
intimate touch.
39:45
What about the the
39:47
casual touch, the the everyday handshake, you
39:50
know, in the context of of
39:52
work or the
39:54
casual HRV. to
39:56
a neighbor. because that is
39:58
is, I'm assuming, benefit there as
40:00
well. For sure. I mean,
40:02
it facilitates human bonding.
40:04
Right? For it facilitates a safe interaction between you and
40:06
me, which we can also have with eye to
40:08
eye contact, believe it or not even over
40:11
zoom like we're having right
40:13
now, I'm looking at you PhD your eyes, and you're looking
40:15
at me and my eyes. And so there
40:17
is a bond here that happens where
40:19
we help each other feel safe enough to
40:21
have this conversation without feeling judged. Well, sort of.
40:23
Sort of. So one thing
40:24
I'm gonna point out, I I don't know if you
40:26
know you might be aware of this. You're
40:28
technically when you're doing Zoom,
40:32
the
40:32
camera I'm looking you in the screen, but the camera is
40:34
above me. So it's like we're kind
40:36
of at eye, but that is that or
40:39
my overthinking? No. No. You're you're right. That
40:42
you're you're right. I'm not
40:44
saying this is as good as being faced at
40:46
face. Of course. Nothing is good at
40:48
being face to face and and holding
40:50
hands HRV hugging and having like
40:52
a real authentic human
40:54
interaction. But what's interesting is because I
40:56
do almost all my therapy over Zoom
40:58
these days PhD that I
41:00
am able to build in a very short time extremely
41:02
powerful trusting relationships with my
41:04
patients to the point where
41:08
we don't have to be in to get same get
41:10
being in person. And that is pretty
41:13
incredible. Right? Yes.
41:15
And and so I think
41:17
the idea is that you don't have to be a person
41:20
to get it and it doesn't have to be touched to
41:22
get the empathy and the
41:24
safety. But when you
41:26
are in person, and you
41:28
have the eye to eye contact face
41:30
to face, and you have the
41:32
hand shaking, the hand holding, the
41:34
human contact face
41:36
to face, that the touch is is extremely
41:38
important because it reminds us
41:40
that it's okay to be
41:42
vulnerable together. Right? And
41:44
then it reminds us that despite
41:46
we how different we might seem or
41:48
appear to each other on the surface,
41:50
that we are ultimately all human
41:52
before where anything else.
41:54
Right? I am a guy
41:56
wearing a plaid shirt with glasses and you're a
41:58
guy wearing a t shirt with no glasses,
42:00
but we're still human first. before
42:03
were any of those other things. And
42:06
we have a tendency to forget
42:08
that. And when we forget Because we've had
42:10
so much distance between
42:12
each other, PhD when we forget that, we start to feel unsafe.
42:14
And our brains start to say, oh,
42:16
this person's new, this
42:18
person's different. Uh-oh, new and
42:20
different, that might be
42:22
unsafe. If I'm in a situation
42:24
where we can hold hands or look at each other in
42:26
the eye Dave face, My body
42:28
quickly remembers that
42:30
we're still human.
42:30
But if we're far apart PhD we
42:33
don't have
42:33
that opportunity, it's PhD I'm
42:35
also really stressed out in my regular
42:38
life. It's easier for me to
42:40
accidentally
42:42
confuse those
42:42
differences with potential threat. Does that make
42:44
sense? Absolutely. Absolutely. So I'm
42:46
gonna come back to how Apollo
42:50
works I think it's, again, such a powerful tool
42:52
and walk us through,
42:53
you know, the the
42:55
development of
42:58
it. And and
42:58
how does it work? Like, how does one use it? because I think it is an
43:00
incredible tool. You know, I think we've clearly
43:02
established HRV as something we
43:05
all need to think about in terms of
43:07
how we manage stress. And there's
43:09
tons of data out
43:11
there Dave terms of
43:13
you know, it's role in longevity. And so walk
43:15
us through how Apollo
43:18
Neuro works. So along the
43:20
lines of this whole
43:22
conversation about safety and PhD benefits
43:24
of soothing touch, we
43:26
PhD empathy, I was seeing
43:28
patients working with people with HRV many
43:30
of whom are veterans with PTSD, substance
43:33
use disorders, treatment resistant mental illness, who
43:35
are really struggling and the
43:37
treatments that we were giving them were just not working for a lot of them. You
43:39
know, I think the statistics for PTSD show
43:42
that less than thirty percent of people who
43:44
get that the standard of
43:46
care treatments are not
43:48
actually getting better long term,
43:50
which is not a good statistic. That means over
43:52
seventy percent of people are still
43:54
symptomatic long term after getting the treatments that
43:56
we're taught to give.
43:58
And so that
44:00
being said, when they're in the office with me or with my other
44:02
talented colleagues who are really good at this
44:04
empathy eye to eye
44:06
contact thing, we're able
44:08
to give them so much of a sense
44:10
of safety and acceptance
44:12
and trust with us in person
44:14
that or in some cases
44:16
over Zoom, that they able to start to
44:18
feel like they can trust themselves again and
44:20
feel safe in their own skin based on modeling
44:23
what it feels like to trust
44:25
us.
44:25
Right? So we build
44:27
a trusting relationship with
44:29
them. They remember what trust feels
44:32
like, and then they learn to trust
44:34
themselves again. And that is we're providing
44:36
a non judgmental space to listen
44:38
to them undividedly without
44:43
judgment with complete acceptance. Then
44:46
they leave the office.
44:48
Big problem. Right? because they're going back into the
44:50
regular world. and they're surrounded by
44:51
all the same stressors. They were surrounded by before they came
44:54
into the office and they're like, oh, doctor
44:56
doctor Raven's not with me anymore. I'm on
44:58
my own. Right? And
44:59
then they have to figure out how to restore that sense of safety
45:01
for themselves, which they probably haven't
45:03
mastered the techniques. Rabin I just talked
45:05
an hour before, PhD so
45:08
they're on their own and they're like, okay. Well,
45:10
I'm gonna go back to the old way I was doing things
45:12
most of the time because that's easier because
45:14
I've trained those habits and
45:18
those
45:18
don't really work
45:19
long term, but they make me feel good right now, so
45:21
I'm just gonna do it. Right? And so what
45:23
we were trying to do when
45:25
we developed Apollo was
45:28
HRV do we tap into the tools
45:30
that actually work for people in the
45:32
techniques that actually work their science based,
45:35
like soothing touch, like soothing music, like
45:38
empathy, and understanding that
45:40
those increase activity in our
45:42
safety or response nervous system in
45:44
our brains, which then increases recovery
45:46
nervous system activity and decreases
45:48
sympathetic fight or flight activity even in
45:50
the moment. HRV could we what can
45:52
we do to create something? We could give people take out of the office. That was the origination.
45:56
And so
45:58
that ended up leading us down this path
46:00
of exploring soothing touch. And we mapped out I mapped out the
46:02
entire neural pathway of how
46:04
touch impacts the emotional brain
46:08
PhD when I was at the University of Pittsburgh
46:10
and in Department of Psychiatry and effectively when you
46:12
are touched in a loving way,
46:15
when you are experiencing soothing vibration
46:18
or a massage, what or
46:20
holding a PhD? What happens to your
46:22
Right? There's something that's actually
46:24
happening PhD telling you, I'm safe right now. And
46:26
it's actually the same thing that happens when you take a
46:28
deep breath. And it's the same thing that happens when
46:30
you do biofeedback. And so we started to look
46:32
at that. And as we saw these similarities,
46:35
we realized that
46:37
there are ways potentially to replicate the benefits of
46:39
soothing touch and deep breathing on the
46:42
go by figuring out what
46:44
the
46:44
touch receptors are
46:46
skin like to feel when we feel safe and sending
46:48
it to them with vibration. And
46:50
so we explored this quite
46:52
a bit for many years
46:54
between
46:55
twenty fourteen and twenty in twenty nineteen, twenty
46:57
eighteen, twenty
46:57
nineteen. And we figured out very, very
47:00
specific frequencies
47:02
of sound that you can that
47:04
are it's the same sound you can hear, but it's
47:06
it's just below the normal range of
47:08
hearing. So it's more like what comes out of
47:10
a subwoofer. So it's like deep deep bass.
47:12
that we figured out you could deliver to the skin in
47:15
very very specific
47:18
ways, almost like a song for
47:20
your skin. that
47:22
the body, the
47:23
skin feels, and then the
47:25
body and
47:25
a sense of the brain and the emotional
47:28
part of our
47:30
brain says, this feels
47:31
safe. This reminds me that I can
47:33
if I can pay attention to this
47:35
feeling, then I can't be running from a
47:37
lion right now. and then
47:39
it retrains us to feel safe
47:42
in in more situations
47:44
in our day
47:44
to day lives as we use it and take it into
47:46
our lives. And it reminds us constantly, hey, I'm
47:49
out in traffic right now. Normally, I might
47:52
choose to flip out or
47:54
sort of beeping my horn or start yelling at
47:56
people, but
47:57
I don't need to do that.
47:58
I have a choice. Right? If I'm
47:59
actually safe right now and, you
48:01
know, anything
48:02
five minutes late to work is is not
48:04
good, but it's not end of my end of the world, I'm not gonna
48:07
make decisions behind the wheel that could actually be
48:09
the end of my world. Right? And it
48:11
reminds us that we have the
48:13
opportunity to choose. our
48:14
outcome like we were talking about earlier. And so as we started to
48:16
see that and we started testing in clinical trials,
48:19
that's actually what the trials showed.
48:22
And then we put it out into the real world, made prototypes, and that's actually what
48:24
people started telling us. And then that
48:26
became the product Apollo that we released
48:29
to the world in twenty
48:32
twenty. right, before the pandemic surprises
48:34
us all. And we
48:37
all
48:37
need it. We're
48:40
having success. trying it is
48:42
is the witching hour when we're trying to put our
48:44
kids to PhD. When they're
48:45
all amped up and things seem quite
48:47
ugly. Yeah. That's
48:50
real. It is real. It
48:52
is real. And so can you just walk us
48:54
through, like, what it looks like? You know, like, where
48:56
do how do people use it?
48:58
you know, where do they where do they put it and so forth integrate it? You know, you
49:00
mentioned or a pretty straightforward put in put in your
49:03
hand. This is actually pretty straightforward too, but
49:05
you can just walk us walk
49:07
walk through what what that looks
49:09
like. Sure. So so Apollo's is
49:11
really different than these other wearables
49:13
in that it's not a tracker.
49:15
So if think
49:16
about wearable technology in
49:18
three generations, the first
49:20
generation of wearables is like, the
49:24
the tracker trackers Apple
49:26
Watch and these other devices that are just
49:28
taking data from you and then showing your
49:30
data then you have to interpret
49:32
the data process the data, interpret it, and then
49:34
decide what to do about it, and then -- Yep.
49:37
-- got it. Right? Then there's the
49:39
next generation like Muse and Peloton and other
49:41
things that are tracker trainers. So
49:43
they're taking data from you
49:45
PhD they're giving you something to
49:48
do, to train yourself, to do
49:50
it better. like news where it's giving you data about how well you're meditating and then asking
49:52
you to do something to meditate better.
49:55
Right? However, we're kind of
49:57
in a situation right now where
50:00
we have complete data overload. And
50:02
many of us don't have
50:05
the bandwidth to
50:07
take on more data and
50:09
then take more time out of our day to act on
50:11
that data. And so part
50:12
of the reason why we developed Apollo
50:15
was to be a the
50:18
actual to take the data, process it for
50:20
you, and then make the change for you. So
50:22
this is the first of the
50:24
third generation of wearables, which looks
50:26
like this. and you can wear it anywhere on your body because it's
50:28
just delivering sound waves
50:30
to your body. It doesn't need to be on your
50:32
scan. It can go through clothing,
50:35
I personally like to wear it
50:37
for sleep on my ankle, which is the
50:39
favorite amongst most of our users, but we
50:41
also have a clip that
50:43
you could see here and this clip allows you to clip it on to
50:45
anywhere you like. I wear it now now that the clip came out,
50:47
I wear it on my
50:50
chest. during the day, and then I wear it on my ankle at night.
50:52
But I think the favorite spots are
50:54
looking like chest,
50:57
that belt, wow bra
50:59
for women, and then
51:02
ankle and wrist. And there's a
51:04
strap also that you can wear on your ankle were
51:06
wrist with. Personally, I'm an ankle and chest guy.
51:08
But interestingly, the studies
51:10
the studies show that location doesn't matter.
51:14
The body As long as you
51:16
can feel the vibration, the body feels it as soothing and then
51:17
interprets it and does
51:20
the work
51:22
for you. which is really, really interesting because
51:24
we don't have a lot of tools that do the
51:26
work for us. No, you
51:28
don't. And look, I love
51:30
the gadgets I love the tools.
51:32
I love my ordering. I love my whoop.
51:34
But they can't improve
51:36
my heart rate variability or
51:38
improve my sleep. They can
51:40
tell me my data, my numbers,
51:41
how I'm performing, but I'm
51:44
fortunate where I know a lot
51:45
of experts in the space and they
51:47
helped me interpret the
51:50
data because you need there's
51:52
more work to do. What
51:54
what you do is so unique is
51:56
you do is a unique is I
51:58
would say to say most
51:59
people are stressed. Most people wanna
52:02
when you're talking about an ex
52:05
Navy Dave has got an HRV of two
52:07
hundred. Think approves the point no no no matter
52:09
where you are. If you're twenty or one hundred
52:11
and twenty, you can do better. You
52:13
wanna do better. here's a
52:15
tool which you can use relatively
52:18
seamlessly. It's not invasive. Put on your
52:20
leg when you go
52:22
to sleep. put in your shirt and could help improve your
52:24
HRV, which overwhelming
52:25
data suggests
52:26
we're all better off in
52:28
terms of longevity, the higher HRV, the
52:32
better. Right.
52:33
And it's not just doing it in the way you described
52:35
and it's not just HRV. Right? HRV
52:37
is interesting as a metric
52:39
that we track to
52:42
show how resilient we
52:44
are on the go. Right? That's an
52:46
important metric, but that is the
52:48
outcome of of being
52:50
healthier and getting better sleep. And
52:52
so what we're seeing with Apollo that's really
52:55
interesting is you can toss your Apollo on
52:57
in the moment of stress because we know stress
52:59
decreases HRV. And in the moment
53:01
of stress, you can boost your HRV by
53:03
anywhere from ten to
53:05
twenty percent in the moment of stress, which
53:08
we'll have what we've seen in the
53:10
studies is we'll have a
53:12
proportionate increase in your cognitive and
53:14
physical performance. of ten to twenty percent just by the
53:16
body in the moment of stress. It was
53:18
even that was from our study at the University
53:22
of Pittsburgh PhD another
53:24
study that just came out showing that it happens
53:27
with athletes post
53:29
workout. What's even more interesting
53:31
is that actually persists over time. So
53:33
if you -- we did a study when COVID happened, all of our sleep --
53:35
all the sleep labs we were planning to work
53:37
with shutdown indefinitely. PhD so
53:40
we thought, well, we have people who use
53:43
these guys or a ring or a ring is
53:45
the most accurate sleep tracker and help and
53:47
cardiovascular health tracker. What
53:50
if we send an email out to our users and say ask them how many of ORR rings
53:52
and wanna share their data with us so that
53:54
we can make our product better. It turns out
53:56
people actually thought that
53:58
was cool. So we had we have now
53:59
over fifteen hundred people
54:00
sharing their warring data with us
54:03
for years, and we're able to
54:05
compare
54:05
what their bodies look
54:08
like and their sleep looks like before Apollo versus after, and
54:10
when they use Apollo and when they don't.
54:12
And that's been really interesting because we've
54:14
been able to see that over three months
54:17
use of Apollo, consistent use,
54:19
which is consistent use as defined as
54:21
having it vibrating on your body about
54:23
three or more hours a day, five or
54:25
more days a week, just
54:26
vibrating on your body doesn't have to be you don't have to do
54:29
anything. That little extra
54:31
touch sensation to
54:34
your body gives
54:35
you up to thirty more
54:37
minutes of sleep each night.
54:39
That's up
54:40
to three and a half hours
54:42
of more sleep every week just
54:44
by having something like this vibrating and sending
54:46
safety signals
54:47
to your body on three or
54:49
four hours a
54:50
day. Right? And
54:52
that sleep is deeper and more breastfed,
54:54
nineteen percent more deep sleep,
54:56
fourteen percent more REM, PhD
54:59
we also see reductions in resting heart rate by about four
55:01
percent and HRV increases that are cumulative
55:03
around eleven
55:05
percent
55:06
HRV improvement.
55:07
So this is showing just that
55:09
the story around safety and
55:12
touch is so consistent
55:14
because the
55:16
bodies are expanding reliably. And and to give you an idea of
55:18
how much those numbers
55:20
are impactful,
55:24
that's comparable to what we see in the literature from somebody adopting
55:26
a new exercise or meditation routine over that
55:28
same three month time
55:30
frame. Wow.
55:30
So every parent including myself
55:32
is asking, can I give this
55:35
to my child? Yes. As as
55:37
I had my three year old sneak
55:39
into bed last night and kick me in the head and, you know,
55:41
I get in decent sleep score, but
55:43
my my my deep
55:46
sleep was definitely compromised last night. Thanks to my beautiful
55:48
wonderful three year old.
55:50
Yep. I know
55:51
that.
55:52
That is
55:56
We have some of our best friends Dave a two and three
55:58
year old right now, and that's like a a real
56:00
a regular struggle for them. But,
56:02
yes, you can use it on kids. We have
56:04
a lot of parents using on their kids. We part of the reason
56:06
why we developed it the way we did
56:09
was using sound is because
56:11
sound is is in the in the
56:14
range that we use it, which is
56:16
just below the audible range in
56:18
the what we call it, tactile range, the range that
56:20
we feel. and at the
56:22
volumes we use it, which is very very
56:24
low, it's virtually universally
56:26
found to be safe.
56:28
So there aren't really side effects
56:31
from known side effects from using sound the way that's
56:33
used with Apollo. It's like having low
56:35
ambient music around all
56:37
the time. Right? So
56:40
that isn't really nice
56:42
because people who for for
56:44
vulnerable populations
56:46
like children you know,
56:48
children, pregnant women, elderly
56:50
adults. Those people
56:52
are and people who are not good medication
56:54
candidates. You know, those people
56:57
need something for them too. And those are
56:59
a lot of our patients. They're people who just
57:01
don't do well with medication.
57:04
And if we can give them something else that they are
57:06
in control over that can give them some
57:08
of the benefits of just feeling
57:11
matter better then
57:12
and sleeping a little better, then that could potentially hold
57:14
off, you know, prevent a lot
57:17
of of the downstream negative consequences
57:19
we see from overusing or
57:22
overprescribing medicine or supplements that
57:24
are still not getting to the heart of
57:26
the problem, which is that we're not feeling
57:28
safe enough to fall
57:30
asleep? It's truly revolutionary.
57:32
I think we all
57:35
need this.
57:36
So, you
57:37
know, in closing, I'm
57:39
curious, you know, you mentioned, you know,
57:41
trying trying to, you know,
57:43
working on studies. I
57:47
am curious of studies you're about to
57:49
embark on HRV studies
57:52
that you're paying attention to or
57:54
something recently published.
57:57
What's the most exciting? Do
58:00
you want the most
58:02
exciting from a
58:04
standpoint of
58:06
kind of new therapies most exciting about changing the way we think about
58:08
the field because there's a PhD, give
58:10
it to me, all the above. Well, so
58:12
this recent
58:13
study just came out from
58:15
the University College of London, that is
58:17
what's called an umbrella study.
58:20
This came out July of
58:22
this year, an umbrella study is a study that look, it's
58:24
a it's called a meta analysis
58:26
of meta analysis studies.
58:29
So it's like over one hundred
58:31
thousand people were included in this And what they found
58:34
was that in fact,
58:36
there is no
58:37
evidence to
58:40
support that
58:40
there is a chemical imbalance or
58:43
a serotonin
58:43
issue in people who
58:45
have depression. PhD
58:48
in addition to that, people
58:50
who have depression are
58:52
more likely to be suffering
58:56
from unprocessed trauma than they are
58:58
to have a chemical imbalance, which
59:00
is what most of us have
59:02
been saying for
59:04
years But the pharmaceutical
59:06
companies have been so many
59:08
of them have been have so
59:11
heavily propagated this
59:14
idea that there's a
59:15
chemical imbalance with Because, you know, that gets medicines out into the
59:17
world. And of course, they're conducting studies that are in
59:19
PhD best interest. Right? That's just -- Right. -- what we
59:21
that it works. But I
59:24
think that we're finally now having large enough
59:27
population studies that are
59:29
very, very
59:29
exciting, which are showing,
59:32
hey, yes, these medications are great
59:34
for some
59:34
people. Right? But
59:37
it's not because there's a
59:39
chemical imbalance. It's because
59:42
they're allowing people an opportunity to
59:45
feel comfortable enough to be
59:47
able to overcome some of these
59:49
challenges they're facing. That
59:51
being said, if you if there's not a
59:53
chemical imbalance, it means you're not
59:56
born with
59:57
your depression. Right? you have the
59:59
ability to change
1:00:01
your future
1:00:02
PhD how you feel
1:00:04
PhD that is so
1:00:06
empowering for our patients and it's so exciting to see that
1:00:09
that's finally coming to the surface.
1:00:11
We'll also think about
1:00:13
if you're treating someone with
1:00:16
depression PhD you're operating
1:00:18
under that assumption and you're prescribing an
1:00:20
SSRI and it's
1:00:22
not a serotonin problem and that
1:00:24
person doesn't feel better. You talk about the feeling
1:00:25
of hopelessness. Nothing works
1:00:28
for me. And there's often a
1:00:32
side effect. PhD you think
1:00:34
about the tens of millions of people who
1:00:35
are affected by this, it
1:00:38
accentuates
1:00:39
the problem.
1:00:41
Yeah.
1:00:41
Try hundreds of millions. Hundreds of
1:00:44
millions. Yeah. The
1:00:45
mental health epidemic works as,
1:00:47
you know, so it's Yeah.
1:00:50
And
1:00:50
it's really important. Right? And this is where psychedelic
1:00:52
medicines come in too because that's
1:00:54
the other breakthrough that's at the forefront
1:00:57
of mental health. and psychiatry because it's the first
1:00:59
time we've ever had tools
1:01:02
that help us
1:01:04
to treat
1:01:06
somebody's mental illness in a way that
1:01:08
is long lasting with just a few doses
1:01:10
of medicine. Right? Most medications
1:01:12
we are taught to use in
1:01:15
mental health, we are taught to
1:01:18
prescribe to be used one or multiple times a
1:01:20
day every day potentially for the rest of
1:01:22
your life. Right? That's
1:01:22
like telling somebody that you have a terminal illness that you're
1:01:25
treating. Mental illness is not
1:01:27
a terminal illness. Right?
1:01:29
It's
1:01:29
not going it's not
1:01:32
terminal. What it It's not
1:01:34
necessarily for life. If
1:01:37
you know that you don't have
1:01:38
a chemical balance you were born with,
1:01:40
then that
1:01:41
means that there are things you
1:01:43
can do to change
1:01:46
your outcomes. Right? If
1:01:48
you know that three doses of
1:01:50
MDMA with forty two hours of
1:01:52
psychotherapy
1:01:54
can take sixty seven percent of people with treatment resistant
1:01:56
PTSD and get them to a point of no
1:01:58
longer being
1:02:00
symptomatic within one year's
1:02:02
time that potentially
1:02:03
persists for much longer than
1:02:05
one year, then you
1:02:07
can change
1:02:10
your outcomes. Right? There is nothing more
1:02:12
powerful than being able
1:02:14
to understand that you can change your
1:02:17
outcomes. And then because that fosters a belief in
1:02:19
ourselves. It fosters a belief in our ability to have a say
1:02:22
in our own lives. Right? To
1:02:24
actually step into
1:02:25
the driver's seat. of
1:02:27
our own lives and take the wheel. What could be
1:02:29
more powerful than that? And and so on that
1:02:32
note, you know, what what
1:02:34
I was in college, I participated in psychedelic
1:02:36
medicine in the context of in my
1:02:38
fraternity, drinking heavily and
1:02:40
listening to the
1:02:42
Grateful Dead. which was an interesting experience. Some of it was good. Some
1:02:44
of it was not so good. But suffice to
1:02:46
say, it was
1:02:48
not under Physician
1:02:50
supervision. Physician supervision at all. With
1:02:53
that said, I
1:02:54
I do think it's important. I wanna spend a moment
1:02:58
here because I think
1:02:59
this is so promising, but in my opinion, the
1:03:01
message isn't, you know, go to Tulum and then, you
1:03:03
know, hook up with the first shaman you see at
1:03:05
the airport and go
1:03:08
for it. Can can you talk a little bit? because I think
1:03:10
it's also on you know, it it
1:03:14
without supervision,
1:03:14
without supervision this
1:03:16
is
1:03:16
also potentially unsafe and harmful to
1:03:19
your mental health. So question I've actually
1:03:21
been getting on the personal levels, a lot
1:03:23
of people are interested this. A lot
1:03:25
of people have trauma, a lot of people have unresolved issues,
1:03:27
and it's a great treatment
1:03:30
when
1:03:30
other treatments have been exhausted. You know, they're doing
1:03:32
therapy. It's just not working or what have
1:03:34
you. So where does the average person go? If they're if they're they're
1:03:36
thinking, I'm a candidate for this.
1:03:38
Where do they go? So if they're gonna
1:03:40
do this type of work, they're
1:03:43
doing
1:03:43
it in the right way under the proper
1:03:45
medical supervision? That's a great
1:03:48
question. So, I mean, where I
1:03:50
would send my loved ones, if they were struggling, I would send them somebody who
1:03:52
does ketamine assisted therapy or
1:03:55
ketamine assisted psychotherapy.
1:03:56
if
1:03:59
people are looking for providers
1:04:02
that that do this work, you can go
1:04:04
to
1:04:05
ketamine's ketamine
1:04:07
therapy, psychotherapy associates. KPA
1:04:09
dot org, I think, and there's a list of providers
1:04:12
there. And if you go
1:04:14
to my website, reach out to us, which
1:04:16
is apollo dot clinic, We do we
1:04:18
provide ketamine assisted therapy in my clinic, and
1:04:20
we can also recommend you to other people in your
1:04:22
area if we can't serve you. That
1:04:25
is the gold what I would say
1:04:27
is the gold standard now legal access to psychedelic
1:04:30
therapy. Most other
1:04:31
psychedelic medicines are not legal
1:04:33
at this time. So
1:04:36
if you wanted to access MDMA assisted you have
1:04:38
to contact maps dot org, which
1:04:40
is a multidisciplinary association for
1:04:44
psychedelic studies. PhD then you have
1:04:46
to enroll in a clinical trial, which is child, which takes time, and
1:04:48
it's not a quick process.
1:04:50
So if you're really struggling
1:04:52
with depression, PTSD,
1:04:55
anxiety disorders don't
1:04:56
don't do as well with
1:05:00
these treatments right
1:05:02
now. Takes a little more work,
1:05:04
but particularly PTSD and depression, there's a
1:05:06
lot of
1:05:07
evidence to support ketamine
1:05:08
assisted therapy is probably being the best option
1:05:10
for folks. Yes. Mhmm. And
1:05:12
so I would highly recommend that
1:05:15
there's also a lot of ketamine you can get
1:05:17
without therapy. I would not recommend
1:05:19
that someone. I would say, do it
1:05:21
with therapy. You will have better outcomes that
1:05:23
are longer lasting. PhD
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