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Discretion is advised. In

1:30

Nineteen Ninety six F B I

1:32

agents have been watching a suburban

1:34

Chicago home suspect in a couple

1:36

in their mid twenties of three

1:38

unsolved homicides. The been keeping a

1:40

close eye on the suspects for

1:42

months waiting for the day date

1:45

hopefully slip up and it's think

1:47

that day com when old a

1:49

sudden the couple jumped into their

1:51

car and sped off with the

1:53

wife behind the wheel, weaving through

1:55

traffic like a bad at a

1:57

pow. The agents followed closely behind.

2:00

Knowing the you're out a way

2:02

to Chicago O'hare Airport but just

2:04

as they pulled up to the

2:06

terminal don't why spend off And

2:08

the husband took off running carrying

2:10

a large bag hoping the contents

2:12

of the bag might hold the

2:14

key to breaking their entire case

2:16

wide open. the agents spring it

2:18

through the airport trying to apprehend

2:20

the man. The when we finally

2:22

managed to catch up to him

2:24

they were in for a disappointment

2:26

because when they open the bag

2:28

oh they found inside. Was a

2:31

pile of dolls some used to.

2:33

The agents knew they'd have to

2:35

let him go, but this hands

2:37

in. the first time they've been

2:39

played by the couple realizing the

2:41

F B I been surveilling them

2:43

all and surely run d come

2:45

up with the planes of toy

2:47

with the agents and it wouldn't

2:49

be the last. To Charlene and

2:51

Paul we don't seem like one

2:54

big game. Join. Me

2:56

now as we dive into a

2:58

case of one of the most

3:00

twisted and unknown serial killers and

3:03

modern Chicago history. A cunning criminal

3:05

who played a game of cat

3:07

and mouse with law enforcement for

3:10

years while hunting in plain sight

3:12

of brutal sexual sadist with an

3:14

unquenchable appetite for rape and murder.

3:21

It. Had been a bitterly cold

3:23

day in January nineteen Ninety Five

3:26

when a German shepherd named Friendly

3:28

and birds from a nearby forest

3:30

on his owners property near the

3:32

Wisconsin Illinois border tearing back home

3:35

something truly or effect. Instead

3:37

of just or perhaps a

3:40

dead animal friendly was carrying

3:42

around, a human left. After

3:45

the dog's owner notified local police

3:47

about the gruesome find, it didn't

3:49

take long for officers to descend

3:51

on the area, scouring the property

3:54

with cadaver dogs in case there

3:56

were other remains to be found.

3:59

But after nice. extensive search. They

4:01

found nothing." That's

4:03

why it was astonishing when five

4:06

days later, Friendly returned home again

4:08

with another human leg. Both

4:11

legs had been perfectly severed and

4:13

appeared to have come from the

4:15

same body. But whose body?

4:18

Police tried attaching a special tracking

4:21

collar to Friendly, hoping

4:23

he might lead them to discover more

4:25

body parts. But if Friendly knew

4:27

where they were hidden, he kept that

4:29

secret all to himself. While

4:32

police continued searching the area, medical

4:34

examiners determined the body parts had

4:36

most likely come from a white

4:39

woman in her twenties. After

4:44

looking through records of recent

4:46

missing persons reports, investigators discovered

4:49

a potential match for the

4:51

mysterious pair of legs. A

4:54

24-year-old woman, lasting in

4:56

early January. The woman's

4:58

name was Stacy Frobel from the

5:01

West Chicago suburb of Carroll Stream.

5:04

But in order to make a

5:06

positive DNA identification, lab technicians would

5:08

need to collect samples from both

5:10

their parents to compare. Finding

5:13

her mother was easy, but it

5:15

would be her biological father who'd be

5:17

difficult to track down. He'd

5:19

only seen his daughter Stacy once

5:21

when she was four months old,

5:23

but even then didn't believe she

5:25

was his. He'd soon know for

5:27

sure once police managed to locate

5:29

him down in Nashville, Tennessee and

5:32

got him to submit his DNA

5:34

for testing. After

5:38

comparing his DNA to the DNA

5:40

from the severed legs, it

5:43

was concluded that not only had

5:45

the legs belonged to Stacy, but that

5:47

the man was indeed her father. As

5:50

police tried determining Stacy's last movements

5:53

before her legs were discovered, they

5:55

found out the last time

5:57

anyone had seen her alive had been found.

6:00

been on the night of January 3rd, 1995. That

6:04

night, she'd visited some friends and headed

6:06

home around 1245 in the morning, but

6:10

never made it home. Even

6:12

though her husband didn't see her the

6:15

next day, he reportedly hadn't been too

6:17

worried. According to

6:19

neighbors, the couple had been together less

6:21

than a year and could often be

6:23

heard arguing. Apparently, it

6:26

wasn't uncommon for Stacy to take off for

6:28

a day or two at times as well.

6:31

Finally, after waiting 24 hours

6:34

with no sign of her, Stacy's

6:36

husband reported her missing. When

6:39

police started looking into Stacy's background,

6:42

what they discovered was a rather

6:44

tumultuous situation that would lead them

6:46

down a number of unfruitful rabbit

6:49

holes. For starters,

6:51

five years earlier, when Stacy was

6:54

eight months pregnant, her first husband

6:56

and father of their soon-to-be child

6:58

was sent to jail for domestic

7:01

abuse. Then, just 15 minutes

7:04

after being placed in a holding cell,

7:06

he took his own life by hanging

7:08

himself with his own shirt. Struggling

7:11

to cope with the loss of

7:13

her husband and becoming a single

7:15

mother, Stacy decided to give her

7:17

mother custody of the baby. After

7:27

canvassing local establishments, police

7:29

would also discover that

7:31

Stacy was a known patron of a lot

7:33

of the bars. So police

7:35

began to theorize. After

7:37

leaving her friend's home on January 3rd,

7:39

she might have swung by a pub

7:41

before heading home around one in the

7:44

morning, but no one remembered seeing her.

7:47

Eventually, police were able to determine

7:49

that Stacy made two phone calls

7:51

before leaving her friend's place that

7:53

night. The first was

7:55

a call to her husband. The

7:58

second was to another man. she'd

8:00

been having an affair with. Eventually

8:03

both men were interviewed and

8:05

polygraphed on three separate occasions.

8:08

In the end, each of the

8:10

suspects passed their lie detector tests

8:12

and both of them had reasonable

8:15

alibis. In the meantime,

8:17

more body parts started turning up

8:19

with the next of Stacy's remains

8:22

being discovered on March 21st. Her

8:25

skull, found by another dog near

8:27

the same area the legs had

8:29

been found. Four days

8:31

later, a woman walking through

8:33

a field in southern Wisconsin found

8:35

Stacy's hand about six miles away.

8:38

A month after that,

8:40

one of her feet was found in Wisconsin

8:42

as well. News

8:46

of Stacy's murder investigation received

8:48

considerable coverage in the Chicago

8:50

press and despite Stacy's mother's

8:53

best attempts at shielding her

8:55

five-year-old grandson from the news,

8:57

inevitably he'd learned the gruesome

9:00

details from watching TV. Something

9:03

he tried to make sense of in

9:05

his own way. That spring,

9:07

when he was taken to the hospital

9:09

for a dog night, Stacy's

9:11

son asked the doctor if he was

9:13

going to die because what

9:16

he comprehended from the news was that

9:18

his mother had died because of a

9:20

dog. But

9:22

the way Stacy's remains had been removed

9:24

from her body, one thing

9:27

was clear, her injuries hadn't

9:29

occurred because of an animal. Police

9:31

knew they were looking for an entirely

9:33

different kind of predator. A person,

9:37

someone who'd gone to great

9:39

lengths to dismember Stacy's body

9:41

and scatter her remains in

9:43

different locations. The only

9:45

question was, who? But

9:48

while police continued their high-profile investigation in

9:50

the summer of 1995, a bizarre new

9:54

case fell into their laps. In

10:00

1995, a man in a

10:02

neighboring jurisdiction reported his adult

10:04

nieces missing. In fact,

10:07

no one had seen them in almost

10:09

two weeks. Twenty-year-old

10:11

Janetta and 22-year-old Amela

10:14

Passimbegovich, sisters who'd

10:16

recently immigrated to the United States

10:18

from Bosnia, fleeing a

10:20

brutal civil war during the breakup

10:23

of Yugoslavia. To

10:25

escape the conflict, their father

10:27

cashed in his entire life

10:29

savings to fund his daughter's

10:31

passage to America, smuggling

10:33

them out of Sarajevo through a

10:35

half-mile tunnel beneath the city. After

10:38

arriving in the U.S., the sisters moved

10:41

in with an uncle who lived just

10:43

outside of Chicago where they found work

10:45

in a factory. A few

10:47

months later, after feeling a bit more

10:50

stable, the sisters moved into their own

10:52

place. And just as things

10:54

were looking up for the Bosnian immigrants,

10:57

things suddenly took an unexpected turn

10:59

when they were both laid off

11:01

from their jobs. They'd only

11:03

been in the country for six months

11:05

and were already learning how difficult it

11:07

could be to make a life on

11:09

their own. That's

11:11

why the sisters thought it was their

11:13

lucky day when they ran into a

11:15

former coworker at the unemployment office, telling

11:18

them about an opportunity to clean houses

11:20

for some friends who were

11:22

starting a new business. After

11:25

sharing their contact info, it was arranged

11:27

that the sisters would be picked up

11:29

the following day to start their new

11:31

jobs, but no one had

11:33

seen them since. Alright

11:43

let's take a break from true crime for

11:45

a minute to talk about something I know

11:47

we all love to talk about, and that's

11:49

our pets. Over here at

11:51

Team Madness, our three furry four-legged friends

11:54

aren't just part of our family, they're

11:56

part of our production team. They attend

11:58

every meeting and they're all always on

12:00

hand to help us make those

12:02

tough calls. Like when it's time

12:04

to have a snack or have

12:06

a washroom break. Our most senior

12:08

staffer is Meatball, or as we

12:10

like to call them, our snack

12:13

position specialist. And then we have

12:15

Bubbles, our project manager. This little

12:17

lady is always on the move,

12:19

shadowing me from room to room,

12:21

literally tracking my every movement. There's

12:23

nothing getting past those bug eyes.

12:25

And then there's our intern, Charlie,

12:27

who we're probably gonna have to let

12:29

go. Just one too many naps on

12:31

the job, if you know what I'm saying. But

12:34

in all seriousness, we love these guys

12:36

so much, we couldn't imagine living a

12:38

day without them. And we've had our

12:40

share of health scares with all three

12:42

of them. Most recently with Bubbles, when

12:44

she woke up one morning and it

12:46

looked like she'd had a stroke. Thankfully

12:48

after being hospitalized, she recovered, but there

12:50

was a week there where her whole

12:52

family was beside herself. You know those

12:54

moments where you just feel helpless and

12:56

you just hope that everything's gonna be

12:58

all right. Well, we all love our

13:00

pets for so many different reasons, because

13:02

of how they greet us at the

13:05

door, because of their unconditional love. But

13:07

I also think it's because they're the

13:09

one thing on this earth that will

13:11

only break our hearts once in their

13:13

lifetime. And that's when they leave us,

13:15

which is why like many pet owners, we'll

13:17

do anything it takes to keep them healthy

13:20

and with us for as long as possible.

13:22

The ASPCA Pet Health Insurance Program

13:24

offers customizable accident and illness plans,

13:26

making it easier for pet parents

13:29

like you to help your pet

13:31

get the care they may need.

13:33

The ASPCA Pet Health Insurance Program

13:35

has been around for over 18

13:37

years and has helped more

13:39

than 600,000 pets during that time. They

13:43

also allow you to customize your plan,

13:45

helping ensure that your pet's plan is

13:47

as unique as they are because vet

13:49

bills can really add up, especially when

13:52

you're least expecting it. It's simple,

13:54

use their app to submit a

13:56

claim and you'll receive reimbursement for

13:58

eligible vet bills to run. directly into your

14:00

bank account. To explore

14:03

coverage, visit

14:05

ASPCA, petinsurance.com,

14:07

slash madness.

14:09

That's ASPCA,

14:11

petinsurance.com, slash

14:13

madness. Again,

14:15

that's ASPCA,

14:17

petinsurance.com, slash

14:20

madness. This is a paid

14:22

advertisement. Insurance is underwritten by

14:24

either Independence American Insurance Company

14:26

or United States Fire Incurrence

14:29

Company and produced by PTZ Insurance

14:31

Agency Limited. The ASPCA is not

14:33

an insurer and is not engaged

14:35

in the business of insurance. When

14:43

police started interviewing anyone who knew

14:45

the sisters, they soon learned the

14:47

identity of the couple who allegedly

14:49

started the new house cleaning business,

14:51

Paul and Charlene Runge. A

14:54

couple in their mid-twenties living in

14:56

nearby Glendale Heights. But when investigators

14:58

spoke to the couple, they were

15:00

surprised by the response. Not

15:03

only did the Rungees deny knowing the

15:05

sisters, but they also denied having any

15:07

sort of house cleaning business as well.

15:10

In fact, they seemed downright

15:12

surprised by the claim. This

15:14

left police at a strange impasse

15:16

and it was obvious somebody was

15:19

lying. But before they could

15:21

figure out who, investigators received a

15:23

stunning piece of news. Paul

15:26

Runge was now also a suspect

15:28

for the murder of Stacy Frobel.

15:35

After the leads on Stacy's husband and

15:37

the man she'd been having an affair

15:40

with failed to pan out, detectives began

15:42

reworking the Frobel case from square one,

15:44

beginning with the last known person to

15:46

have seen her alive. And

15:49

interestingly, that's when they realized the

15:51

friend Stacy had been hanging out

15:53

with the night she disappeared were

15:55

Paul and Charlene Runge. But

15:58

it wasn't just the fact that Paul had been

16:00

the last person to have seen Stacy alive.

16:03

It's what detectives discovered when they

16:05

ran a background check on all

16:07

of Stacy's friends and acquaintances. Because

16:09

Paul had a record, but not

16:11

just any record. In

16:14

fact, what they discovered

16:16

was horrifying. On

16:21

August 17th, 1987, when

16:23

Paul Runge was 17 years

16:25

old and had his parents' house all

16:27

to himself for a weekend, it

16:30

seemed his life of bevious behavior began.

16:33

That night, Paul called a 14-year-old girl

16:35

he knew from school and told her

16:37

he needed a favor. A mutual

16:40

friend of theirs needed a place to stash

16:42

some marijuana, and he asked if she'd be

16:44

willing to help him get it. But it

16:46

was a trap. After

16:49

sneaking out of her bedroom window, the

16:51

young girl met up with Paul at

16:53

his house, but as soon as she

16:55

walked inside, Paul attacked and raped her.

16:57

He then tortured her for the next

16:59

15 hours, and

17:02

what Paul did to that girl

17:04

was truly horrific. In fact,

17:06

what the victim described later were

17:09

some of the most violent sadistic

17:11

details we've ever come across. And

17:14

the torture only ended after Paul

17:16

was interrupted by a phone call

17:18

from his girlfriend at the time, and

17:20

he left the house. But

17:23

to keep his captive from escaping,

17:25

Paul cuffed the 14-year-old girl's hands

17:27

behind her back, tied her legs

17:30

together, and zipped her up into

17:32

a sleeping bag before stuffing her

17:34

into a crawlspace. According

17:37

to the victim's testimony, once

17:39

Paul left the house, she swore

17:41

to herself she wasn't going to

17:44

die laying down, and she was

17:46

going to escape. And miraculously, she

17:49

did. After rolling, hopping,

17:51

and opening doors with her hands

17:53

cuffed behind her back, the 14-year-old

17:56

managed to make it out to the

17:58

middle of the street before being spotted

18:00

by neighbor who rescued are. All.

18:02

Was soon arrested and received

18:04

a fourteen year prison sentence,

18:06

but after serving only seven

18:08

years, he was released on

18:10

parole in Nineteen Ninety Four,

18:13

just eight months before Stacey

18:15

Smarter. During. That

18:17

time oh god himself an

18:19

apartment, found a job at

18:21

Lady Footlocker and became engaged

18:23

to Charlene. Buoyed marry just

18:26

three weeks after steaks his

18:28

disappearance. Needless, To say

18:30

police were stunned when they

18:32

discovered pulse sexually violent criminal history

18:35

and once they started seen

18:37

him through a new plans, it

18:39

changed their entire perception of what

18:42

might have happened on the

18:44

nice Stacey disappeared. The

18:46

only people claiming to have seen Stacey

18:48

leave the runs his house on the

18:50

morning of June or fourth. More. Poland,

18:52

Charlene, Originally police had

18:55

dedicated their time to finding out

18:57

what happened to Stacey after she

18:59

left her friend's house. But.

19:02

Now they wondered if Stacey left the

19:04

house at all. By

19:06

the end of the summer of

19:08

Ninety Ninety Five home runs, he

19:10

became the prime suspect for both

19:13

Stacey Smarter and The Past and

19:15

big if it's sisters disappearance which

19:17

police now feared was most likely

19:19

homicide as well. Over

19:21

the course of the next two

19:23

years, police on the F B

19:25

I went back surveillance on Poland

19:28

Charlene on more than two hundred

19:30

and eighty separate occasions. In

19:32

fact, local police dedicated so many

19:35

man hours to the case, the

19:37

even had to request and eight

19:39

percent increase to account for the

19:42

excess spending. However, own

19:44

surely knew they were being

19:46

watched. Been soon started toying

19:48

with the agents in charge

19:50

of their surveillance. That. first

19:52

the waving at the agents whenever

19:55

they spotted them sitting in their

19:57

unmarked vehicles even making a point

20:00

of saying hello to whoever was listening

20:02

on their tap phone line. For

20:04

fun, Paul would hop into his car

20:07

and start driving just to see if

20:09

he could spot his tail, and

20:11

once he did, he'd try to loose

20:13

them in traffic. The

20:15

couple even staged that elaborate scene

20:18

when Charlene dropped Paul at the

20:20

Chicago O'Hare airport with a bag

20:22

full of dolls just

20:24

to see the FBI agents' reactions.

20:27

They were openly taunting police,

20:29

poking the bear, and giving

20:32

them the metaphorical finger. Naturally,

20:35

this only encouraged the agents to

20:37

want to catch them even more,

20:39

and one day in 1996, they

20:42

finally found their first piece of

20:44

solid evidence against Paul and

20:47

Charlene. One

20:51

day as the agents were watching the

20:53

rungies home, they spotted a garbage truck

20:55

roll up and remove their trash. That's

20:58

when they decided to follow the truck

21:00

around the corner, pull it

21:02

over, and look for any potential clues

21:04

the rungies might have thrown away. Inside

21:08

a trash bag, agents discovered

21:10

a single piece of paper

21:12

that would confirm their darkest

21:14

suspicions. Written in

21:17

Charlene's handwriting were the names of

21:19

the sisters from Boston E.S.N.A., their

21:21

phone number, and their home address.

21:24

And the reason this was such

21:26

a key breakthrough was because up

21:29

until that point, the rungies had

21:31

denied having any connection to the

21:33

siblings or even knowing who they

21:35

were. But now police

21:37

had hard evidence to prove they

21:39

were lying. Although the

21:41

piece of paper wasn't enough for

21:43

an arrest, it was enough for

21:45

police to secure a search warrant

21:47

at Paul and Charlene's home. It

21:53

was during the search of the

21:55

rungies home that FBI discovered a

21:57

number of weapons, including a

21:59

stunning gun, a crossbow, and

22:02

some rather large knives. But

22:05

after being forensically tested, no traces

22:07

of blood or DNA were found

22:09

on the weapons. Although

22:12

it initially seemed their search hadn't

22:14

turned up anything valuable, it would

22:17

later turn out that the FBI

22:19

had been wrong about this. If

22:22

they'd only realized then what they

22:24

already had in their possession, the

22:26

rest of this tragic story would

22:29

never have happened. On

22:34

January 10th,

22:36

1997, almost exactly two years after

22:39

Stacy's murder, a fire broke out

22:41

in a home near downtown Chicago.

22:45

Inside the burning home, firefighters found

22:47

the lifeless body of 30-year-old

22:49

Dorothy Jubark in her own

22:52

bed. Although

23:00

police first thought Dorothy had died

23:02

from the fire, an autopsy would

23:04

later reveal she'd actually been murdered,

23:07

with signs of manual strangulation, including

23:09

a broken hyoid bone in her

23:11

neck, patakia in her eyes. But

23:15

most telling of all was the

23:17

lack of soot in Dorothy's lungs,

23:20

which meant she hadn't been breathing when

23:22

the fire started. Further

23:24

examination also revealed that

23:26

Dorothy had been sexually

23:28

assaulted. An

23:31

investigation into the fire would

23:33

show evidence of an accelerant

23:35

being poured over Dorothy's body

23:37

in bed before someone deliberately

23:40

set it on fire. Police

23:43

also learned Dorothy had been trying to

23:45

sell her house without a realtor. Instead,

23:47

she put up a For Sale

23:49

By Owner sign, posted out front.

23:52

They also learned that just before her

23:55

murder, Dorothy had been on the phone

23:57

with a close friend, and it was

23:59

during that call. Dorothy said a potential

24:01

fire was coming over to view her

24:03

home, a man that had

24:05

made her feel uneasy. So she

24:08

asked if her friend could call her back in 15 minutes

24:10

just to make sure she was okay.

24:13

But when she did, no one answered.

24:16

So the next call she made was to

24:18

police, asking them to

24:20

perform a welfare check. But

24:22

before they could get there, the fire department

24:25

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in. shopify.com/madness. Detectives

26:42

were left with little doubt that the

26:44

person who murdered Dorothy was the same

26:46

man who went to look at her

26:48

home. However, the

26:50

man's identity remained a mystery.

26:54

Less than a month later, on

26:56

February 3rd, another fire broke

26:58

out in a small apartment in Chicago.

27:01

Inside, firefighters discovered two bodies

27:04

in a bed. The

27:07

victims were 35-year-old Yolanda

27:09

Gutierrez and her 10-year-old

27:11

daughter, Jessica Muniz.

27:14

Both mother and daughter were fully

27:16

clothed, with their mouths gagged, hands

27:18

tied behind their backs, and their

27:21

throats cut. An autopsy

27:23

would later show evidence they'd

27:25

been sexually assaulted. Collected

27:28

semen samples were sent to a

27:30

forensics lab to create a DNA

27:32

profile. And just like

27:34

the previous fire, investigators found an

27:37

accelerant being poured all around the

27:39

bed. During their

27:41

investigation, police interviewed a number

27:44

of possible suspects linked to

27:46

Yolanda's personal life. But

27:48

it was what they found inside Yolanda's

27:50

home that caught their eye. A

27:53

stack of flyers she printed out

27:55

and posted around the area, advertising

27:58

a hooked-on phonics program. she

28:00

was selling that included her phone number.

28:03

It made detectives wonder if someone

28:05

had managed to talk their way

28:07

into Yolanda's home, posing as

28:10

a potential fire. The

28:17

third Chicago Fire happened six

28:19

weeks later, on March 14th.

28:22

This time, it was a condo located

28:24

only a few minutes away from the

28:26

previous fire. Inside in

28:29

the bathroom, firefighters found

28:31

the deceased body of

28:33

43-year-old Kazimiera Perush, and

28:35

at first glance, it

28:38

was obvious there'd been a violent

28:40

struggle between a woman and her attacker.

28:42

Investigators would later discover that

28:44

she too had been sexually

28:46

assaulted before being beaten and

28:48

stabbed with a knife. They

28:51

also found evidence she'd been

28:54

strangled, and just like the

28:56

previous fires, an accelerant

28:58

had been poured over the body before the

29:00

fire was started. Tearing

29:07

the investigation, detectives discovered Kazimiera

29:10

was a Polish immigrant who

29:12

planned on returning to Poland

29:14

after going through a painful

29:16

divorce. She just needed to

29:18

sell her condo first, and

29:20

this is when Chicago police

29:22

started recognizing a pattern. Outside

29:25

of Kazimiera's condo was a sign

29:28

that read, For Sale By Owner.

29:31

That's when they began to realize they

29:33

were looking at the same perpetrator at

29:35

all three crime scenes. A

29:37

man who found his victims through classified

29:39

ads and used them as an

29:41

excuse to enter the women's homes

29:43

before attacking, raping and murdering them,

29:46

then setting their homes on fire

29:48

to destroy any trace evidence. Over

29:51

the span of just 10 weeks in early 1997,

29:55

their killer had burned down three

29:57

separate homes and committed four homicides.

30:00

Another shocking aspect of these crimes was

30:02

the fact they'd all taken place in

30:04

the middle of the day. Realizing

30:07

they were dealing with a killer who knew how

30:10

to cover their tracks, Chicago police

30:12

asked the FBI to develop a

30:14

psychological profile on the person they

30:17

now believed was a serial killer.

30:23

For Chicago police, it was a race

30:25

against time to solve the case before

30:27

the killer struck again. The

30:30

only problem was they didn't

30:32

have a single clue who could be

30:34

responsible. Police in

30:36

downtown Chicago were completely unaware

30:38

of the years-long investigation happening

30:40

out in the suburbs, the

30:43

investigation into Paul Runge.

30:46

After spending two whole years investigating

30:49

and surveilling Paul and Charlene, the

30:51

FBI and local police still didn't

30:53

have enough evidence to make an

30:55

arrest for the murders of Stacey

30:57

Frobel and the Passant-Bekovich sisters, but

31:00

in their minds there was zero

31:02

doubt about who was responsible. In

31:05

May 1997, the FBI decided to pull

31:08

a page from their old Chicago playbook

31:10

if they couldn't arrest Paul for murder

31:12

was there something else they could arrest

31:14

him for. Famously, the

31:17

FBI used the same trick to

31:19

bring down Windy City gangster Al

31:21

Capone in the 1930s.

31:24

They convicted him on tax

31:26

evasion instead of busting him

31:28

for murder, racketeering and bootlegging

31:31

and this is when they realized that

31:33

they had a piece of evidence already

31:35

in their possession that could take Paul

31:37

off the streets and put him behind

31:39

bars, at least for a little

31:41

while. During

31:49

their search of Paul's home the year before, investigators

31:51

found a number of weapons including

31:54

a large knife they'd sent away

31:56

for forensic testing. considered

32:00

their search a failure, but they

32:02

were wrong. Having weapons

32:04

in his house was a violation

32:06

of Paul's parole after being released

32:08

from prison for the rape he'd

32:10

committed in 1987, and

32:12

so their prime suspect in three

32:14

homicide cases was sent back

32:16

to prison on a simple parole violation.

32:19

But still, the clock was ticking, and

32:21

if they couldn't come up with the

32:24

evidence soon, Paul would be released again

32:26

in only a few short years. By

32:29

the year 2000, investigators were

32:31

running out of time to bring

32:33

a case against Paul before a sentence was

32:36

up. Out of desperation,

32:38

they offered to give Charlene

32:40

Runge full immunity in exchange

32:42

for her cooperation and testimony

32:44

against Paul, and it was

32:46

a deal Charlene eagerly accepted.

32:50

According to the Chicago Tribune, Charlene

32:52

admitted she'd helped clean up the

32:54

crime scene after Stacey Froebel's murder,

32:57

and even assisted Paul in

32:59

scattering her dismembered remains along

33:02

the Wisconsin-Illinois border. To

33:06

prove her claims, she showed detectives

33:08

bloodstains inside her house that would

33:10

later confirm to have come from

33:13

Stacey, but that's not all she

33:15

admitted. Charlene also confessed

33:17

to playing her role in luring

33:20

the Passam Begevich sisters over to

33:22

their house to be attacked by

33:24

Paul by pretending to offer them

33:26

a house cleaning job and driving

33:28

them to her home. After

33:31

the murders, Charlene helped Paul clean

33:33

up blood at the crime scene. At

33:37

the very least, Charlene was confessing

33:39

to be an accessory to at

33:41

least three homicides, but

33:43

because of her deal, she had

33:45

complete immunity. The tradeoff

33:48

was something prosecutors were willing

33:50

to begrudgingly accept, but just

33:52

months later, it would

33:54

turn out their immunity deal hadn't

33:57

been necessary. In

34:03

2001, detectives in downtown Chicago

34:05

were still pursuing what they

34:08

believed to be an entirely

34:10

unrelated string of rapes, murders

34:12

in arson from early 1997. In

34:16

fact, they even had a suspect they

34:19

were looking into for the murders of

34:21

Yolanda Gutierrez and her daughter Jessica. Detectives

34:24

collected a sample of DNA from their

34:27

suspect and sent it away to be

34:29

compared to the semen sample collected from

34:31

the original crime scene. By

34:34

this time, DNA databases

34:36

were becoming increasingly linked

34:38

across jurisdictions and the

34:40

sample from the original crime scene turned

34:42

out to be a perfect match to

34:45

Paul Runge. This is

34:47

when the FBI and local Chicago

34:49

police finally realized that all the

34:51

unsolved murders they'd been investigating had

34:54

been committed by the same killer.

34:57

Not only did they now have

34:59

solid forensic evidence against a bona

35:01

fide serial killer they believed was

35:04

responsible for raping and murdering six

35:06

women and one child, but they

35:09

were also faced with a few

35:11

haunting realizations. First,

35:13

it meant that despite being

35:15

under FBI surveillance on hundreds

35:17

of occasions, Paul had

35:19

committed former murders right under their noses

35:22

in 1997. But

35:25

the second realization was even

35:27

harder to stomach because

35:29

if the FBI had informed the parole

35:31

board about finding weapons in Paul's home

35:33

back in 1996 instead of waiting another

35:37

year, four of his victims would

35:40

still be alive today. And

35:42

lastly, even though there'd been

35:45

no way prosecutors could have foreseen

35:47

this development, the DNA

35:49

evidence against Paul meant that

35:51

giving Charlene full immunity hadn't

35:54

been necessary. The

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supplier. Detectives

36:54

interviewed Paul in prison on June 7th,

36:56

2001 and although he started out by

37:00

denying any involvement with the murders,

37:02

when detectives showed him the DNA

37:04

results from the Gutierrez crime scene,

37:07

he completely changed this tool and

37:09

simply said, you got me, what

37:11

do you want me to say?

37:14

Paul then continued to give a full

37:16

confession of all the crimes, even

37:19

admitting to murdering a sex worker

37:21

in January 1997, bringing

37:24

his total number of victims to

37:26

eight. Detectives

37:28

were absolutely stunned by what they were

37:30

hearing. Not only was

37:32

Paul telling them every single detail, but

37:35

they were haunted about how matter-of-fact he

37:37

was about all of it. I

38:00

was made enough of, I guess, the wife.

38:04

I wouldn't hate by that. Because when I

38:06

get out of the walker, she wants more. She

38:09

wants me to breathe in the night, realize she's so

38:11

cute and mental. Paul

38:14

showed no emotion, no signs of

38:17

regret, and talked about murder as

38:19

if he was talking about the

38:21

weather. The other thing

38:23

the shock detectives wore Paul's

38:25

claims about Charlene's involvement. For

38:28

the most part, he corroborated what

38:31

Charlene had told them regarding Stacy

38:33

and the Passant-Begavitch sisters. That

38:35

she'd helped lure the women in hopes they

38:38

would be willing to become intimate with both

38:40

her and Paul. But when they

38:42

weren't, she sat by as

38:44

Paul murdered them and helped clean

38:46

up and dispose of their bodies.

38:49

But what detectives had never heard

38:51

before were Paul's claims

38:53

that Charlene had also come with

38:56

him to the apartment of Yolanda

38:58

Gutierrez and Jessica Munes. In

39:01

his original statement, Paul claimed

39:04

that Charlene had witnessed the

39:06

entire brutal attack and

39:08

was even the one who handed him a

39:10

can of turpentine so he could set the

39:12

apartment on fire. But when

39:14

detectives questioned Charlene after his

39:16

interview, she denied all the

39:18

new allegations. During Paul's

39:20

next interview, he changed his

39:22

story and now said he'd

39:25

been lying about Charlene's involvement.

39:27

But detectives weren't entirely convinced.

39:31

Regardless, the truth of what really

39:33

happened made no difference when it

39:35

came to Charlene because there was

39:37

nothing the prosecution could do about

39:39

it. In 2006, Paul

39:42

Runge was put on trial for

39:44

the murders of Yolanda Gutierrez and

39:47

Jessica Munes. As

39:52

a defense strategy, Paul pleaded not

39:54

guilty by reason of insanity, which

39:56

was rejected by the jury, who

39:58

found him guilty. on all counts. During

40:02

the penalty phase, it only took

40:04

the jury an hour to unanimously

40:06

sentence him to death. After

40:09

sentencing, Yolande's father told the

40:11

press, I hope the

40:13

Lord will give me enough time so

40:15

I can see him strapped to the

40:17

gurney. Once he's gone, I'll be very

40:19

satisfied. With Paul

40:21

being sent to death row, the

40:23

DA elected not to prosecute the

40:26

other murder cases against them, since

40:28

he couldn't possibly receive a harsher

40:30

penalty. But in 2011,

40:32

Yolande Governor Pat

40:34

Quinn signed legislation abolishing the

40:37

death penalty in the state.

40:40

That meant Paul Runge, along with 14 other

40:42

men, had their sentences

40:44

commuted to life without

40:46

parole. What time will you come

40:48

to your visit and when do

40:50

you think that's great to decide?

40:54

Well, I made my final decision over the

40:56

weekend and I thought

40:58

it was important for our state for

41:01

history as well as for an important

41:03

piece of legislation like this to have

41:05

an opportunity for all to register their

41:07

opinion. So I heard from both sides.

41:09

I think I had a pretty good

41:11

idea of where people's points of view

41:13

were and ultimately I had to make

41:15

that decision of which way to go.

41:29

Well, I think John Wayne Gacy was an

41:31

evil man who committed heinous

41:34

crimes. Having said that, you

41:36

cannot have a death penalty

41:38

system in our state that

41:40

kills innocent people and unfortunately

41:42

that system was in grave

41:44

danger of doing exactly that

41:46

in 20 different instances in

41:48

Illinois. And so what's

41:50

really a question here, it seems

41:53

to me, is the system itself. If

41:55

the system can't be guaranteed 100% error

41:57

free. then

42:00

we shouldn't have the system. It

42:02

cannot stand. It just is not

42:05

right in our democracy and system

42:07

of justice. They have a death

42:09

penalty system that would apply and

42:11

execute to innocent men and women.

42:14

And so that really, I think, is

42:16

a decisive matter that has to be dealt with

42:18

by all of us. No.

42:27

You know, I think all of us learn as we

42:29

go through life, and I certainly learned in the past

42:31

two months from a variety

42:34

of people from Illinois and outside of

42:36

Illinois who have opinions on this issue.

42:39

I really read as much as I could, and

42:43

I took notes. Most of you know

42:45

I know how to scribble down

42:47

notes, and I keep meticulous

42:49

notes, and then I review my notes. And

42:51

I do that on everything that, you know,

42:53

applies to this job. So I

42:55

really feel that I gave it my

42:57

best review, and

43:00

follow my conscience. And if you do that,

43:03

I think God wants you to

43:05

do it that way, and your conscience will never kick

43:07

you in the shin. In

43:09

a scathing op-ed published in the

43:12

Chicago Tribune, the author singled

43:14

out Paul by saying, of the 15

43:17

men on death row, none more

43:19

deserve to die for his crimes

43:21

than Paul Runge. It

43:25

appears that Paul Runge first started

43:28

displaying sexual deviance towards females around

43:30

the age of eight. Touching and

43:32

grabbing them to the point, he

43:34

was asked to leave the Catholic

43:37

school he was attending. And although

43:39

Paul had come from a supportive,

43:41

middle-class family without any known history

43:44

of violence, abuse, or other notable

43:46

trauma, it's been reported that

43:48

Paul had an especially close relationship with

43:50

his adoptive mother. And when she died

43:52

of cancer when he was 17, he

43:55

was there to watch her take her last breath,

43:58

a traumatic experience. followed

44:01

by Paul committing his first reported

44:03

rape three weeks later. But

44:06

this alone couldn't possibly explain what had

44:08

caused him to become one of the

44:10

most heinous serial killers in modern US

44:13

history. A serial

44:15

killer later diagnosed as

44:17

a sexual sadist with

44:19

borderline antisocial personality disorder

44:21

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When you need a company, you can trust. In

45:27

later interviews, Paul claimed he believed his brain began

45:29

connecting sex and violence during adolescence through watching horror

45:31

movies and viewing pornography at a young age. He

45:36

also claimed that every one of his murders had

45:38

been a crime of opportunity rather than selecting

45:41

specific victims. He

45:44

also said that nearly every day during his

45:46

two-year killing spree, he was on the lookout

45:49

for potential victims. And

45:52

that during that time, there were many women he

45:54

planned on attacking if he thought he

45:57

could get away with it. away

46:00

with that. The case

46:02

of Paul Runge is a stark

46:04

reminder that we can never forget

46:06

the untold number of ancillary victims

46:09

that crimes like these affect. Firefighters

46:12

trying to save people from

46:14

a burning building, but instead

46:16

coming face to face with

46:18

brutal homicides burned into their

46:20

memories forever. The

46:23

innocent people discovering dismembered body

46:25

parts while walking their pets

46:27

in the woods and

46:29

even the jury members who sat

46:31

and listened to the horrifying details

46:33

that were much too graphic for

46:35

us to even repeat. All

46:38

told, Paul Runge confessed to murdering

46:40

eight different women between 1995 and

46:42

1997, but

46:46

the ripple effects of these crimes would

46:48

be felt all around the world, from

46:51

Chicago to Poland to Bosnia

46:53

and beyond. When

46:56

Paul's sentencing, the father of Gennetta

46:58

and Emela Passenbegovecz took the

47:00

stand and spoke through an interpreter.

47:03

He'd flown all the way from Bosnia

47:06

to make sure the jury understood just

47:08

how much Paul had taken from him

47:10

and his family. As

47:12

he told them about the last time he'd

47:15

seen his daughters kissing them goodbye as they

47:18

escaped a violent war zone

47:20

for a better life, the

47:22

interpreter himself began weeping and

47:25

could hardly get his own words out. But

47:28

despite the linguistic barrier and

47:30

the interpreter's struggle to convey

47:32

the words, the raw

47:34

display of emotions and humanity

47:36

became a universally understood language

47:38

of its own. And

47:41

when the proud father held up a picture

47:43

of his daughters, gripping it tightly

47:45

in both hands to show the jurors,

47:48

there wasn't a single dry eye among

47:50

them. I

47:53

think we should have stern, unrelenting,

47:56

unremitting punishment for those who commit

47:58

violent crimes like murder. and heinous

48:00

crimes, they should never be allowed

48:02

to go free or never

48:04

should be allowed to leave prison. I think

48:07

they should be put in maximum security prisons

48:09

and left to reflect on their wrong for

48:11

the rest of their lives. I mean, if

48:13

you read the Bible, if you save one

48:16

life, you save the whole world. And if

48:19

we are in any way participants

48:22

as a state in

48:24

killing an innocent person using

48:26

the power of the state, we have to

48:28

deal with that as a very

48:30

important issue. And I totally understand

48:33

how the family members

48:35

of victims feel about

48:37

the loss of their loved ones due

48:39

to the heinous crimes of

48:41

violent people who are evil doers.

48:44

I do believe the evil doers should be

48:46

punished severely in

48:49

prison without parole, without

48:51

ever seeing freedom again, but

48:53

also without the death penalty. That's

49:21

sure to capture your attention. Tales of the

49:23

catastrophically lost or what we have to offer.

49:26

Hikers swallowed by the woods.

49:28

Explorers discovering nothing but destitution.

49:31

True crime calamity. Audities of

49:33

harrowing human experience. It's a

49:35

museum of misadventure. So

49:37

pack a lunch. Subscribe to marooned

49:40

wherever you find podcasts. We are waiting.

49:42

Please hurry. Thank you. Follow

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49:51

or wherever you get your

49:53

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49:55

and get access to ad

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49:59

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50:01

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50:04

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50:12

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show. We've got all the links

50:20

in our episode notes. So until

50:23

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