0:19

Ever heard of fame?

0:21

Neat thing birch me

0:23

every little thing. New

0:26

thing Virginie. Every

0:28

little thing that's just feeding

0:30

me Agree to our bear

0:32

that you live. Without

0:35

he. You're.

0:38

Listening to the Minimalist Podcast with

0:40

Joshua Fields Melbourne and Tk Calm.

0:42

And Edu Malibu. Bam Hello Everybody

0:44

today on the show were joined

0:46

by George Camel George is a

0:48

personal finance expert and co host

0:51

of the Ramsey Show and the

0:53

Smart Money Happy Hour. He went

0:55

from having a negative net worth

0:57

to being a millionaire and under

0:59

ten years. His goal is to

1:01

help people spend less, save more

1:04

and avoid money trap so they

1:06

can live life with more margin

1:08

options and freedom is the also

1:10

the author of this new. Book

1:12

Breaking Free From Broke Coming up

1:14

today on this free, public, minimal

1:17

episode, A Color has a question

1:19

about letting go of the regrets

1:21

she has, about the debt she

1:23

accumulated in the past, and another

1:25

listener as a question about the

1:27

clash between frugality and minimalism. Then

1:29

we've got our lightning round segment

1:31

of fans question and a listener

1:34

tip for you. You could check

1:36

out the full to our maximal

1:38

edition of episode Four Hundred and

1:40

Twenty Six, where we answer. Five

1:42

times the questions and we dive

1:45

deep into several simple living segments.

1:47

That private podcast episode is out

1:49

right now it Patriot and.com/the Minimalists.

1:52

Your support keeps our podcast and

1:54

you Tube channel one hundred percent

1:56

advertisement free because say with Me

1:59

or advertised. Let's start with our callers. If

2:01

you've got a question or a comment for our

2:03

show, give us a call, 406-219-7839 or email

2:09

a voice recording right from

2:11

your phone to podcast at

2:14

theminimalists.com. Our first question today is

2:16

from Taylor. Hi, my name

2:18

is Taylor from Denver, Colorado, and I'm

2:21

calling regarding changing my mind. Years

2:24

ago, I enrolled in a

2:26

for-profit medical device school. Someone

2:29

I knew personally had completed the program and

2:31

was happy with the results. I

2:34

took out a $30,000

2:36

personal loan and quickly learned it was

2:38

not what I thought it would be. Promises

2:41

made that weren't kept and a

2:44

number of factors went into me changing

2:46

my mind and withdrawing from the program.

2:49

I lost $18,000 in months of my life. Despite

2:54

the years that have passed, I

2:57

am tormented daily with grief

3:00

and anger and resentment and

3:02

anxiety and panic towards

3:05

the school and towards myself. I

3:07

would appreciate any thoughts

3:10

or advice on how to

3:12

move on, find

3:14

peace, and let this go. Thank

3:17

you, Minimalists. George,

3:20

I'm so glad you're joining us for this question

3:22

because you can help us talk about the money

3:24

side of things. We can talk about the letting

3:26

go of regret and other things like that. Eventually,

3:29

throughout this episode, at some point, maybe during the

3:31

lightning round, I do want to interrogate you about

3:33

the millionaire thing. You went

3:35

from having a negative net worth to being

3:37

a millionaire in 10 years

3:39

because this idea of being

3:42

a millionaire has these weird polls. TK

3:44

and I were talking about this beforehand.

3:47

Sometimes I think all of us want

3:49

to go from having a negative net worth to being a

3:51

millionaire, but also we demonize

3:53

millionaires in our culture because I

3:56

think we think it's something else.

3:58

We'll get to that. here with

4:00

Taylor's question, it seems

4:03

to me that she made some

4:05

financial mistakes when she was younger

4:07

and now she's experiencing a certain

4:09

amount of regret. Let's walk her

4:11

through that. Well, number one, I wish I was

4:14

talking to her because I would just want to give her a

4:16

hug through the phone and say, Taylor, you're not alone. So

4:19

many people got degrees they either

4:21

aren't using, they didn't finish, and

4:23

now they're carrying the debt years

4:25

later, and that's just compounding

4:27

the emotions of it. And so I feel

4:29

for her. And on top

4:31

of that, you've got to move on and

4:33

pick up the pieces and go, I still have to pay off this

4:35

debt, even if I'm not going to use this degree, even if it

4:37

has pain attached to it. And it's one

4:40

of my biggest issues with debt is, you know, we've

4:42

all heard the body keeps the score. And

4:45

our friend, Dr. John Deloney talks about the

4:47

physical effect that debt has on our bodies

4:49

and the anxiety it creates. So

4:52

number one, she's not alone. And number two, I believe

4:54

she can get out. It's not going to be fun

4:56

to have to switch career paths while paying off this

4:58

debt. It's like paying off an ex's debt. You're no

5:00

longer with but you're like, I don't even like this

5:02

person. Why am I still affected by

5:05

this financial decision? And it's one

5:07

of the reasons I tell people to avoid debt

5:09

like the plague, especially student loans and personal loans,

5:11

because you just don't know what the future holds.

5:14

And just like starting a business, if you start

5:16

with debt, it just adds more risk to your

5:18

life. And this is one of the

5:20

reasons. So Taylor, I'm sorry you're going through this. I

5:22

hope we can get your income to a point where

5:24

you have the margin to throw at this debt and

5:26

get it cleaned up and just move on with your

5:29

life. TK, I want to talk to you a bit

5:31

about regret and then we can get into some of

5:33

the numbers here with George that I think will be

5:35

useful. But for me, regret is often the signpost that

5:38

I want to avoid that in the future. Regret

5:41

isn't necessarily a bad thing.

5:43

It feels bad. It's one

5:45

of those unpleasant emotions, right?

5:48

So maybe it's pointing me toward the things that

5:50

I don't want to do in the future. I

5:52

don't want to go back into debt.

5:55

And therefore that regret is showing me

5:57

that I need to take a detour

5:59

around getting my yourself back into it. That's

6:01

exactly right. Regret is sort of

6:04

like our desire to do

6:06

better next time manifested as self-blame. And

6:08

there's another aspect of it as well,

6:10

and that is the sensation of having

6:13

wasted everything, the sense of it having

6:16

been a complete loss. And it's easier

6:18

to cope with that regret when you

6:20

know that you're walking away from it

6:22

with more wisdom and character than before

6:24

that you can apply towards future things.

6:26

And so one thing that I

6:28

would be asking at a time like this is, what

6:31

do I want to move on to? Because

6:33

it's really hard to let go of something

6:35

if you have nowhere else to go. If

6:37

you believe like, this was the best opportunity

6:39

I will ever had. You know, you use

6:41

the example with X's. I mean, easier

6:44

to let go when you got somebody else to

6:46

love, right? Or you have a sense of what

6:48

the possibilities are out there. But as long as

6:50

you feel like this is the best that I

6:52

will ever do, it's psychologically impossible to let go.

6:54

And so this may be hard at a time

6:56

like this, but I would begin to write

6:58

down what are those goals? What do

7:00

I want to do with my life? And then

7:02

I would look at this past situation and say,

7:05

all right, with all the mistakes aside, what's something

7:07

I've learned from it that I can then apply

7:09

to this future goal I have? George,

7:12

I found that what TK is talking about

7:14

here with letting go, it's impossible for us

7:16

to be present. Letting go is almost like

7:18

this prerequisite for being present.

7:21

And one of the things it's hard to let

7:23

go of is when you've got that ghost of

7:25

debt that's just following you around. And

7:28

so let's get practical for a moment.

7:30

Let's talk about the mechanics of paying

7:32

down debt. For someone like

7:34

Taylor, if she wants to let go of that ghost,

7:36

she's going to have to get rid of the ghost

7:39

of debt. Now, of course, we know we don't want

7:41

to get back into debt in the future. You've got

7:43

to patch the holes on the boat so

7:46

that it doesn't continue to flood, right?

7:49

But with her, she's still got some debt

7:51

that's following her around. What steps does

7:53

she need to walk through? Well, number

7:55

one, I think choosing reality

7:57

and looking at your actual numbers. helpful

8:00

when you're dealing with a lot of swirling

8:02

emotions to just write it down like you

8:04

said, but just saying, hey, what is my

8:06

actual income? What are all of my

8:08

expenses? We call that doing a budget. And so what

8:10

that does for you is it gives you a financial

8:12

mirror to understand where am I at? And how can

8:14

I get to where I want to go? From

8:17

then we can start using the debt snowball method, which is what I

8:19

use to get out of $36,000 of student loan

8:22

debt, much much like our friend Taylor.

8:25

And what you do is you just list out all of your debts

8:27

from smallest to largest. So I had,

8:29

I think 11 different student loans. But when

8:31

I listed them out smallest to largest, it

8:33

gave me one singular focus goal, that tiny

8:35

the smallest debt was my next mission, minimum

8:37

payments on the rest, let's attack that small

8:39

debt with everything I got. I was Ubering,

8:42

I was lifting, I was living on lean

8:44

cuisines, I was just doing whatever I could

8:46

to create margin to throw at the debt.

8:48

And once you knock out that small debt, you get a

8:50

little thing called hope. And that keeps you going along that journey.

8:53

For me, I had a tremendous amount of debt and I

8:55

was working in the corporate world and I was successful. But I

8:57

said, I want to pay this off more quickly. I started

8:59

delivering pizzas at night in

9:02

my Lexus, by the way. And what I

9:04

realized was like, Oh, yeah, this is painful.

9:10

But this pain isn't a bad sort of

9:12

pain. It's a pain that shows me, I

9:14

don't want to get back into this kind

9:16

of affirmative. Absolutely it is. And so I

9:19

think it's also worth noting to anyone who's listening to

9:21

this, it is also possible and you talk about this

9:23

in the book, it's possible to earn

9:25

a degree without going into debt. Now,

9:27

that may not help Taylor here right

9:30

now for the debt she's already accumulated,

9:32

but also recognize that anyone else listening

9:34

to this, if they want to pivot

9:36

in a direction, that means more education

9:38

or more schooling that requires some finances,

9:40

you don't necessarily have to go into

9:42

debt for that. Oh, absolutely. And I

9:44

think one thing like you said, you

9:46

learn you get wisdom from these mistakes.

9:49

And one thing I'm doing for my little girl, because I have

9:51

a four month old little girl now, she's never

9:53

gonna know debt. She's never going to touch a

9:55

student loan. I'm never going to cosign the

9:57

Parent PLUS loan so that she can go to the dream school.

9:59

school that she wants to go to. We're going

10:02

to have a conversation early about here's the plan and here's

10:04

what we're going to do to help pay for it. And

10:06

we already have a 529 plan started

10:08

for her because once you go through it, you

10:10

want to break that generational cycle of debt. And

10:12

so that can be a beautiful part. This

10:16

morning, no kidding, I was meditating and

10:19

it was a very peaceful session. And

10:21

then seemingly out of nowhere, this memory came

10:23

up from a situation a few

10:26

years ago where someone did something that really hurt

10:28

me. And I've

10:30

forgiven the person, I've worked everything out that

10:32

there is to work out. But

10:35

this memory just randomly came up. And

10:37

in that moment, I felt a lot of pain. And

10:39

there was a temptation to judge myself and question myself,

10:41

well, maybe you haven't let it go. Maybe

10:44

you haven't forgiven this person. Maybe you're lying to

10:46

yourself. And in that moment,

10:48

there was just the realization of, you know,

10:50

I've forgiven this person. I've

10:52

taken all the wisdom I need to take from it. But

10:55

I'm a human being and I'm allowed to remember

10:57

moments like this and still feel

11:00

some pain from it. That's part

11:02

of the vulnerability that comes with being human. And

11:04

when you can sit with that and be present with

11:06

that, that becomes a kind of strength that

11:09

you can bring to your interaction with others in

11:11

moments where you need to have mercy on others

11:13

and in moments where you need mercy yourself. And

11:16

so Taylor, this might hurt

11:18

for a while. And that's okay. Being

11:21

a plan, moving on can all exist

11:23

side by side with still feeling the

11:25

pain from something that happened in the

11:28

past that hurt you. You don't have

11:30

to force yourself to let that go

11:32

in order to let go of

11:34

any narratives that say you can't move on to

11:36

a better life. You can do both at the

11:38

same time. You can allow yourself to heal and

11:41

love yourself while that's happening while at the same

11:43

time creating a plan for a better future. I

11:45

think that's super useful. And I think practically what

11:47

George is saying is also really useful in terms

11:50

of doing a budget. You

11:52

can use something like the Every Dollar app to do a budget.

11:54

We'll put a link to that in the show notes. And

11:57

from there, doing something like the debt

11:59

snowball. where you get the momentum. And

12:01

even mathematically, it doesn't always work because

12:03

this loan has a better

12:06

interest rate than the others, but it's not

12:08

about math. And that's what we're learning here

12:10

with Taylor. You didn't get

12:12

into debt because of mathematics. You got

12:15

into debt because there was some sort

12:17

of emotional tug. I really need to

12:19

move in this direction in order to

12:21

complete myself, to be whole, I need

12:24

this particular degree. Okay, fine. I understand

12:26

that. I don't believe it, but I

12:28

understand why you would feel that

12:30

way. So emotions got you

12:32

into debt, but it's

12:35

using that same leverage that will actually get

12:37

you out of debt. And that's the beauty

12:39

of the debt snowball. I remember I had

12:41

almost half a million dollars worth of debt.

12:43

And I went through the whole debt snowball,

12:45

the whole Ramsey plan, and it was a

12:47

tremendous relief for me because I had 14

12:49

credit cards and I was

12:52

broke. And I also realized,

12:54

you know what? I'm

12:56

never going to get out of this. It's so overwhelming.

12:58

But then I had a loan that was a credit

13:00

card that was a hundred dollars. I

13:02

can pay this one off, right? Oh,

13:05

I can cancel it now that it's paid off.

13:07

And I feel good. I'm never going to go

13:09

back into debt with that card. Oh, what's the

13:11

next one? I owe

13:13

$239 on this card. Oh, okay. I

13:16

can pay that off. And how quickly and all of

13:18

a sudden you get that momentum, hence the

13:20

snowball. Before we move on to the

13:22

next question, George, I want to talk

13:24

a bit about being broke. And quite

13:26

often we are either broke or we're broken or both.

13:29

And being broke for an extended

13:32

period of time quite often just

13:34

means that we're living beyond our

13:36

means. When I walked away from the corporate world in

13:38

2011, I took a 90% pay cut. I

13:42

was making 23,000 dollars that year. And I was more financially secure

13:44

that year than any other year

13:48

of my life because I finally

13:50

wasn't living beyond my means. I

13:52

was probably below the poverty line,

13:54

but I was secure.

13:56

And so can you talk a bit about

13:58

being broke in your experience? going from someone

14:00

with a negative net worth to someone

14:02

who now has a substantial savings. Yeah,

14:06

it's interesting you say that. You

14:08

know, you say this in your endorsement for the

14:10

book, which I love. It was, you know, we're

14:12

broke because our habits are broken. And it's way

14:14

less about income, which is what people think it's

14:16

about. Like they think they're broke because they don't

14:18

make enough money. We live

14:20

in a country where anyone's income is far

14:23

beyond what most other countries would see in a

14:25

year. So what it

14:27

comes down to is living on lesson

14:29

we make, having delayed gratification, putting down

14:32

the comparisons and going, what is right

14:34

for my family and my life right

14:36

now? And lifestyle creep is the

14:38

real killer here. Because you make

14:40

more money, you think, well, that's going to solve

14:42

everything. What happens? You just go get nicer stuff.

14:45

That's all that happens. And you have the same amount of money

14:47

left over at the end of the month, which is zero for

14:49

a lot of people. And so it's not

14:51

about getting to a certain income. It's about controlling the

14:53

income you have today. I think

14:55

that lifestyle creep is a fascinating thing we

14:58

need to talk about real quick, because what

15:00

happens is not only do we make more

15:02

money so then we spend more money, but

15:05

we make more money so our capacity to

15:07

go into more debt increases as well. All

15:09

of a sudden, your credit card company is

15:11

giving you a greater spending limit, or you

15:14

have more access to greater debt

15:16

for your car. Your credit score goes up and you

15:18

went, I'm winning at life. Yeah, I do want to

15:20

talk to you about credit scores here in a bit,

15:22

because I think we agree

15:25

about credit scores and how overrated they are. But I

15:27

want to move on to another question first. This one

15:29

is from Jim. Hi,

15:31

this is Jim from Chicago. I am

15:34

in a constant struggle between the

15:36

mutually supporting and competing concepts of

15:38

frugality and minimalism. I

15:40

want to let go of more, but the frugal

15:43

side of me constantly reminds me that having it

15:45

now or picking something up for

15:47

free prevents me from spending money

15:49

on it later. What are

15:51

your thoughts on how these two concepts

15:53

both complement and distract from one another?

15:55

I am not

15:57

a Patreon subscriber. What

16:00

a weird way to end your message, Jim. Well,

16:03

you're going to get what you pay for here. That's

16:06

a happy answer. That's all you get

16:08

until you support on Patreon. Anyone's listening,

16:10

I want you to know that being

16:12

a patron is not optional. It's mandatory

16:14

if you listen to the podcast. It's

16:16

been regulated by the Federal Trade Commission.

16:18

And so, listening to this podcast without

16:21

supporting it is actually illegal. It's a

16:23

federal crime in the state of California.

16:26

I haven't. All right, so I do want to

16:28

talk about frugality because TK, one of the things

16:30

that often gets mistaken is, oh, in order to

16:33

be a minimalist, it just means you're super cheap.

16:35

Right? Frugal is a nice way of saying, ah, he's really

16:38

cheap, right? It is

16:40

possible to be a minimalist and not be

16:42

super frugal. It's possible to be frugal and

16:44

not be a minimalist. But it's also possible

16:46

that you can overlap the two. Any thoughts

16:48

on that? Yeah, it's like somebody said about

16:50

me in the comments one time. I mean,

16:52

look at this guy. Of course he's a

16:54

minimalist. He has to be. That's

16:56

rude. That's rude. Don't

16:59

talk about my man TK like that. That

17:01

is funny. Oh,

17:04

that's an interesting concept though, because frugality at

17:07

the heart of it is someone who doesn't

17:09

want to let go of the money and

17:11

wants to get the best deal possible. And

17:14

so they're nickel and diming every little thing. But

17:17

minimalism, I don't feel like it's

17:19

perpendicular to that in

17:21

a way. You know, it's not about getting

17:23

a deal. It's, are you doing

17:26

it? It's more about the motive and

17:28

the reasoning for making that purchase versus

17:30

the deal you got on it. That's

17:32

right. It's about drilling down to

17:34

the essence of things. It's when I clear away

17:36

all of the distractions, all of the non-essentials,

17:38

what is it that matters to me the

17:40

most? And for some people, that might be

17:43

a lot of money. For some people, a

17:45

little amount of money. For some people, it

17:47

might be a big house. For some people,

17:49

a small house. It reminds me of the

17:51

question we had from an artist who says,

17:53

I love making art and

17:55

I need all of these tools in my

17:57

home to make the art that I love.

18:00

up, can I still be a good minimalist?

18:02

And my response to that was if minimalism

18:04

ever gets in the way of your creativity,

18:06

minimalize the minimalism, not the creativity. Keep that

18:08

and toss everything else out. It's not about

18:10

living up to anyone else's ideas. It's about

18:13

deciding what role is simplicity going to play

18:15

in your life because there are all things

18:18

or we all have things that we need

18:20

to simplify. I think that frugality is a

18:22

benefit until it becomes a burden. I love

18:24

what George just said there about frugality.

18:27

If it means like I don't ever want to let

18:29

go of any money, well,

18:31

that's helpful if you're in debt and

18:33

you are being intentional with your spending.

18:35

If that's what we mean by frugality,

18:37

great. But if it means that I'm

18:39

clinging to my money and never spending

18:41

it no matter what, even when it

18:44

is necessary or even when that purchase

18:46

will add value to my life, well,

18:48

then frugality becomes a burden. And

18:50

so I do think that minimalism

18:53

corresponds with being frugal in the

18:55

sense that both ways of living

18:57

are intentional ways of living.

19:00

And I think ultimately that's what you're talking about, George,

19:02

when you talk about breaking free from

19:04

being broke is there's some intentionality that

19:06

needs to come into the picture here.

19:08

Oh, yeah. Well, we've all seen the

19:10

episode of Hoarders and the person is

19:13

really frugal. And so I don't think

19:15

that frugality and minimalism go hand in

19:17

hand necessarily because you can go broke

19:20

spending money. It's amazing how that works.

19:22

You can save your way into going

19:24

broke because everything was a deal and everything was

19:26

60% off MSRP. And it was

19:28

free. Why would I not take all this free

19:30

stuff? And then you realize it didn't actually add

19:32

to your life at all. In

19:35

fact, it got in the way. That's what we

19:37

went when we call it clutter. In fact, right?

19:39

If something gets in the way of your life,

19:41

it becomes clutter. And

19:44

if frugality is leading to clutter, then

19:46

that is when it's getting in the

19:48

way of minimalism. Amen. You

19:50

know, if you're spending $50 in

19:52

gas in order to save

19:54

$5 on the purchase of a sweater, you

19:57

might be missing the point. And

20:00

this is also why we have to be

20:02

slow to judge because for some people that

20:04

might be the point. The point

20:06

might not be the amount of money that

20:08

I save, it might be the fact that

20:10

I saved and the fact that I was

20:13

able to get a deal or have the

20:15

adventure of discovering something and finding an alternative.

20:17

But it's really all about identifying your priorities.

20:19

What is the most important thing to me?

20:22

Getting rid of the labels and saying, I'm

20:24

going to choose that. You guys can call

20:26

it whatever you want. But for me, that's

20:29

the simple life. Jim, I'd

20:31

love to give you a couple of tickets to one of our

20:33

tour stops. We're going to go on tour this year. It

20:36

is called the Everything Tour. We're doing seven

20:38

cities all across California. Now, I know Jim's

20:40

in Chicago, but we have living proof here

20:43

that someone from Chicago can end up in

20:45

California. Someone in Chicago

20:47

can make it, man. They can make the trip.

20:50

thelmanalists.com/tour. It's actually a free tour. It's

20:52

the first time we've done a free

20:54

tour in nine years since

20:56

2015. And it's all

20:58

independent bookstores all throughout California. We're

21:01

celebrating the 10th anniversary of our

21:03

second book, Everything That Remains. And

21:06

so, Jim, I'd love to send you not

21:08

just a copy of Everything That Remains, which

21:10

is still my favorite thing that we've ever

21:12

written, but a couple of tickets to the

21:14

Everything Tour, any of those cities, whichever one

21:16

sounds most appealing to you. Our

21:18

next question is from Carrie. Good

21:21

morning, minimalists. This is Carrie from

21:23

Minnesota. I'm a Patreon

21:25

subscriber. I was just wondering if

21:28

one of your episodes you could touch on tips.

21:31

I was in the UK for five years, and

21:33

I really appreciated the way that

21:36

they tipped. If they had good

21:38

service, they would tip about 10%. One

21:41

time I got a massage and I tried to tip,

21:43

and she said that she didn't

21:45

need to accept it because she made

21:48

her prices according to what

21:50

she needed and thought they were fair. So

21:54

I have recently moved back to

21:56

Minnesota, and we are a very

21:58

tip-heavy state. Which I

22:00

really don't mind tipping. I've tipped all my

22:02

life and appreciate good service. So I have

22:05

no issues tipping.

22:07

It's getting a

22:10

little bit out of hand. I think I went to

22:12

get bread the other day from a bread

22:15

shop and they took

22:17

it from the counter and handed it to me. And

22:19

then it came up when I pay with my

22:21

card. The tipping and it started

22:23

at 15 20 or 25% and

22:26

I just added 15% because I felt

22:28

guilty and every time I go there now

22:31

I added tip because I almost just feel

22:33

like that's what's required. So

22:35

I'm just wondering your tips on that. Thanks so

22:37

much. Take care. George,

22:39

what are your tips on tipping? If

22:42

I were to rephrase the question in

22:45

a she's from Minnesota, she's naturally nice.

22:47

My wife's from Minnesota and everyone there

22:49

is like Minnesota nice, right? But if

22:51

I were to rephrase the question, I'd

22:54

say what's the best way to approach

22:56

tipping culture when everyone seems to expect

22:58

a tip just for doing their job

23:00

these days. I was

23:02

expecting a tip jar on this table. Like,

23:05

Hey, you're guessing the show you should tip that

23:08

it truly has gotten out of hand and Rachel

23:10

Cruz and I we did an episode on smart

23:12

money happy hour called guilt tipping because that's what

23:14

it's turned into. It's no

23:16

longer gratuity. It's no longer

23:18

generosity. It's turned into

23:20

requirement, which is not that's

23:22

not the spirit of tipping. And now it's happening

23:25

before you receive any service. It happens at the

23:27

iPad at the counter and you don't even know

23:29

if the service is going to be good. If

23:31

the food is going to be warm, if the

23:33

coffee is going to be hot and there's a

23:35

requirement and it's social pressure as

23:38

well. Because what do they say at the counter?

23:40

Just gonna ask you a few questions. You

23:43

know what the questions are. Do you

23:45

like puppies? How much money you want

23:47

to give me? It's really uncomfortable to

23:49

ask. I want to

23:53

give a shout out to the actual person on the other

23:55

side because they don't want it. This is awkward for them

23:57

too. This is just a machine and

23:59

the. the corporation and management and

24:01

this is the system and they can't change it.

24:04

And so I don't ever get angry at

24:06

the person on the other side. Always be

24:08

kind to the people, but also don't ever

24:11

feel like it's a requirement if you're not

24:13

actually getting service. So to me, if I'm

24:15

not sitting down and someone is waiting on

24:17

me, or they're providing

24:19

a service, like in

24:22

the self-care world, it's normal. If you get

24:24

a massage or the mani-pedi to give a

24:26

tip. But this idea that we're going to

24:28

start it at 20 and 30% and there's going to be this

24:31

weird pressure attached to it, I say

24:33

we have to take a stand against

24:35

that. Because now it's become the employer is

24:37

going to pass off giving them a raise

24:40

to the consumer. To say you do that.

24:42

It becomes our responsibility

24:44

now to ensure that the other

24:47

person is paid adequately. However, I

24:49

do like advanced tipping. Let me

24:52

explain why. Tip, I've

24:54

heard someone say this is not the actual

24:56

etymology of the word because it's not an

24:58

acronym, but to ensure prompt service. And

25:01

so tipping beforehand, I will do this. At

25:04

least I'll allude to it. If I go to a nice restaurant,

25:06

I'll say, hey, look, I'm going to be a little bit difficult

25:08

today. I apologize for that, but I promise you I

25:10

tip really well. And that

25:12

ensures prompt service. And I'm doing

25:14

it in a way that's playful

25:16

and friendly and acknowledges sort of

25:18

the absurdity of the whole system

25:20

anyway. And when I say absurdity,

25:23

the obligatory reward sort

25:26

of punishes the person who actually

25:28

deserves the award for a premium

25:31

experience that they've created, right? Because

25:33

if you're just going to start giving them blanket 20% to everyone, even

25:35

if this person was a jerk

25:37

or they annoyed you or ignored you,

25:40

that's one way to look at it. And then

25:42

this other person gave you outstanding service and you

25:44

felt good about the interaction, you're also going to

25:46

what, give them 20%? Now, George

25:48

is a millionaire. I'm sure you just tip 100% now, right? I've

25:51

learned from Dave Ramsey. I

25:53

do now being a part of

25:56

Ramsey, you know, there's a, there's a level of like, Oh

25:58

gosh, like I'm not going to be the, the. Eric

26:00

Tipper here. And so my wife is usually nudging

26:02

me at the iPad screen to be like, you

26:04

better tip that 15%. Like they don't deserve it.

26:06

They didn't do anything yet. They're a nice person.

26:09

And so my wife is more generous when

26:11

it comes to that requirement. But

26:13

I do think I want the spirit

26:16

of tipping to always come from a

26:18

spirit of generosity and not requirement. And

26:20

so going out to eat, I

26:22

do feel like if the service was adequate, it's 20% minimum.

26:26

Whether you like it or not, don't eat out. If

26:29

you can't afford to tip, then

26:31

just get a takeout. All right, do

26:33

what you gotta do. Make it make some food

26:35

at home. But like the purpose of going out,

26:37

we're supporting a business and part of that business

26:40

is their employees who are relying

26:42

on your tips as part of their income.

26:44

And so don't be a jerk. And so Dave

26:47

Ramsey would tell you if you're in debt, don't

26:49

go to the end. Anyways, you're broke. And if

26:51

you're not broke, then be a generous tipper. Wherever

26:53

you go, you're never going to regret it

26:55

unless it comes from that resentful requirement, the

26:57

spirit. I like where this is going, TK,

26:59

because what I'm hearing here is, hey, if

27:01

you are in debt, that means you're broke.

27:04

And if you're broke, you

27:06

should probably limit the interactions that

27:08

require tipping in general. However,

27:10

that does become a problem. I know I went to

27:12

a doctor's office, I had to get an IV

27:14

infusion. And at the end of it, we're going to ask

27:16

you a couple questions at the end. And this is like

27:19

a $300 service. And I'm

27:21

like, I'm not giving you 20% for

27:23

sticking a needle in my arm. What was the

27:26

$300 for? Right, exactly. And

27:28

that makes me question, well, why are

27:30

we tipping here? So if it has

27:32

become so ubiquitous that a mechanic expects

27:34

a tip when I go to get

27:36

my tires rotated or whatever, now all

27:38

of a sudden, it just feels like

27:40

it's almost like an additional tax that

27:42

is not imposed by the government, but

27:44

is imposed by the business itself. Yeah,

27:48

so many layers when it comes to tips.

27:50

Well, one thing is, sometimes

27:53

we can oversimplify the

27:56

work that other people have to do and go through

27:58

in order to provide us with the service. It

28:00

may seem to me, hey, all you did was put the

28:02

food in a box. All you did was stick the needle

28:04

in my arm. I'm not going to tip you for that.

28:07

But it's not until you work those kinds of

28:09

jobs that you realize how much is involved. I've

28:12

worked as a server and a bartender quite

28:14

a bit. And there are times when I've

28:16

had to help out with to-go and realize,

28:18

oh my gosh, you guys are more in

28:20

the weeds than anybody else in this restaurant.

28:22

And no one tips you because it doesn't

28:25

look like you're working in the way that

28:27

it looks like we're working. So we have

28:29

to be careful with judging how much people

28:31

do by the mere optics. The

28:33

second thing I would say is generosity is a pretty

28:35

tricky thing. Sometimes

28:38

you can want to do something. And

28:41

then when another person states it as a

28:43

request or an expectation, it feels as if

28:45

they've robbed you of your opportunity to be

28:47

generous. Oh, I was going to do that

28:49

for you. Why did you have to

28:51

demand it? Why did you have to ask? Because now

28:53

it's going to look like I'm doing it in response

28:55

to your request or demand. But guess what? Even

28:58

though that is what it's going to look like, no

29:00

one has the power to rob you of your ability

29:03

to be generous. Because generosity is

29:05

about what you choose to do with

29:07

your wealth and the intention behind it.

29:10

It never has been about the optics. If

29:12

you're only giving in order to look like

29:14

a giver, you're missing the point, right? The

29:16

whole point of cheerful giving is I believe

29:18

in what I'm doing. And even though I

29:20

was going to do it and you might

29:22

think that I'm only doing it because of

29:24

some facial expression you made or some demand

29:26

you made, I know the truth.

29:29

And that's all that matters. So don't

29:31

let social pressure force you to give, but

29:33

also don't let it stop you from giving

29:35

when you want to be generous. Another

29:38

thing I'll say, and we could go on all day about this topic, but

29:40

another thing I'll say too is it's

29:42

okay to ask if you don't know. I've

29:44

been in situations where I just

29:47

didn't know the culture. It wasn't something as simple

29:49

as, hey, this is my barista or I'm in

29:51

a restaurant having dinner. I

29:53

have a little bit of a tip for this. And in those

29:55

moments, I just asked, I just said, you know, I

29:58

have no clue. Do people. tip for this? How

30:00

do they usually tip? And people are usually sincere.

30:03

No one has ever quoted to me some crazy

30:05

price. I assume they're quoting under. So I usually

30:07

go over when I'm in those kinds of instances.

30:09

But I do think it's okay

30:11

to just confess. I don't know what I'm

30:14

doing. This is my first time using this

30:16

service or buying this product. What do people

30:18

usually do? And people are usually

30:20

pretty gracious about that. I

30:22

used to live in a building here in

30:25

West Hollywood. And at the end of the

30:27

year, I would just give money

30:29

to everyone who worked in the building, the people at

30:31

the front desk. And it was

30:33

like, because what happens is you can

30:35

give small tips from throughout the year.

30:38

Or at the end of the year, I can give them $100.

30:40

And now all of a sudden, it

30:42

feels so much more meaningful to them than if I

30:45

were to give them a dollar over

30:47

the course of, you know, what, 100

30:49

different transactions with them. Then

30:51

they would come to expect it. But this thing

30:54

was so unexpected. And I love what TK is

30:56

talking about here, because you're

30:58

able to get curious around that. It's Yeah,

31:00

I might look like I don't understand

31:02

the customs. But that's because I don't understand the

31:04

custom here. And that's okay. I want to understand

31:06

it. You have any additional insights, George? Well, I

31:09

this is a funny story. I asked my barber

31:11

one time because I was like, am I under

31:13

tipping? Like, what do people normally tip for a

31:15

haircut? I'm here every two weeks. You

31:17

know, I'm tipping 15% is that normal. So I said, Hey,

31:19

I'm just curious. I want to make sure I haven't been

31:21

under tipping you. What do people normally

31:23

tip and he went 2030 40% I

31:27

was like, Okay, nevermind. 40% for

31:30

a haircut. So that was just a funny interaction. I was like,

31:32

I don't know if he was playing with me, you know, maybe

31:34

some people do tip 40%. But

31:36

as a guy who goes every two weeks, I see

31:38

this man often at the end of the year, I

31:40

give him an extra bonus to say, hey, thank you

31:43

for another year of amazing haircuts. It's something that I

31:45

take great pride in, you know, and so I think

31:48

it is a very personal thing and I

31:50

love your concept of not letting someone else

31:52

rob you of the joy of generosity. And

31:55

if you're expecting a certain emotion or a certain,

31:57

you know, outcome, then you're doing

31:59

it wrong. You have to give

32:01

freely with no, you know, vested

32:04

interests or motives. That's interesting because what it

32:06

turns into is a type of consumerism in

32:08

a different way, right? Instead

32:10

of like, I'll buy the luxury good, I'll buy the

32:13

purse or I'll buy the belt, that's going to make

32:15

me happy. Okay, that's, and we

32:17

find out that's never true, right? But

32:19

also, tipping someone isn't going

32:21

to make you happier. However, it's

32:24

a great way to contribute and

32:26

show your appreciation. If you show

32:28

up happy and you're tipping with

32:30

generosity, the spirit of generosity,

32:33

what I hear in Kerry's question

32:35

is, I don't

32:37

feel generous because it feels like a

32:39

requirement. But guess what? It's

32:41

not a requirement. You aren't required to

32:44

do anything. Someone

32:46

might expect it on their end, but guess what? What

32:48

if someone expected you to tip

32:50

a thousand percent? You

32:52

would just laugh at them. Okay. Why?

32:56

Because it's an unreasonable expectation. And

32:59

you can think that about anything. If someone's expecting a

33:01

40% tip, it doesn't mean

33:03

they're wrong for it. It just

33:05

means their expectation does not meet

33:07

my own standard for

33:10

tipping in this scenario. Mm-hmm.

33:14

Malabama, what time is it? You know what time

33:16

it is. It's time for the lightning round where

33:18

we answer your questions from TikTok. Yes, indeed.

33:20

You can follow the minimalist on TikTok,

33:22

also on Instagram, Facebook, X and threads.

33:25

We are at the minimalist on those

33:27

platforms. Now, George, during the lightning round,

33:29

we each have 60 seconds to

33:31

answer your question with a short, shareable, less

33:33

than 140-character response. We

33:36

call them minimal maxims. Love that.

33:38

Although, TK's here, so sometimes we just

33:40

monder on a bit. Wow.

33:44

Shots fired at TK. On

33:47

the air. Who's in, man? I'm just

33:49

trying to give you some freedom here because this

33:51

question, I think, is going to require more than

33:53

60 seconds, although I'll do my best to be.

33:55

I think you can tweet. I can do this.

33:58

This is beautiful. I would love to hear your riff on it. to

34:00

just before you even answer it, like what do

34:02

you think the question is asking? How do

34:04

you interpret it? Oh yeah, let's get there.

34:06

Let's listen to the question and then we

34:09

can interpret it together. By the way, those

34:11

minimal maxims, we put them in the show

34:13

notes over at the minimalist.com/podcast. And if you're

34:16

on our email list over at the minimalist.email,

34:18

then we'll send those minimal maxims and the

34:20

show notes to you every Monday morning. We'll

34:22

send you spam or junk or advertisements, but

34:25

we will start your week off with a

34:27

bit of simplicity. Today's lightning round question is

34:29

from Kat. So

34:32

are you guys millionaires yet? And

34:34

how many millions of dollars have you let

34:36

go of? Ah, wow.

34:39

So there are two ways to look at this question,

34:41

TK. I think there's one way to say this, is

34:43

this person just being a troll, right?

34:46

Or there's a charitable way to look at

34:48

the question. So the troll way is like,

34:51

hey, now that you're the

34:53

minimalist and you're so popular and famous,

34:56

you must be filthy rich. Why aren't

34:58

you letting go of any of your

35:00

money? That's the uncharitable way to look

35:02

at this. But I'm going to assume

35:04

since you're a listener of the minimalist,

35:06

you're asking this in a playful way.

35:08

Yes. With sincerity. Because I, I think

35:10

the most of you can. So

35:12

TK, let's start here. Actually, no, let's

35:15

start with George because he is the

35:17

millionaire at the table. Listen,

35:20

that doesn't mean a whole lot.

35:23

Here's the thing. I think going from broke to

35:25

millionaire is more of a, it's more of a,

35:27

hey, if I can do it, anyone can. It's

35:30

not a flex. Having a million dollars in my

35:32

house and retirement accounts does not mean my life

35:34

has changed dramatically. But so I think there's a

35:36

distinction we need to make between wealth

35:38

and minimalism. Because what they're saying is you can't

35:41

have it both ways. You have to give away

35:43

all your stuff and be among

35:45

the poor in order to be a true minimalist,

35:47

which I don't think is anyone's definition at this

35:49

table. Not necessarily. I think it's okay

35:51

to do that. If you decide that you want

35:54

to get rid of all

35:56

of your worldly possessions, become an aesthetic

35:58

to, and, or even move into

36:00

a monastery or something where you've renounced

36:02

your possessions or at least you're no

36:04

longer holding on to them, that's fine.

36:06

I don't think that's the objective of

36:09

living intentionally though. I think it's one

36:11

path for some people. What's

36:14

your thoughts on this, TK? Wealth versus

36:16

minimalism, should you be giving

36:18

away all of your money in order

36:20

to be a true minimalist? What's

36:23

interesting to me about the question is that it

36:25

presupposes that you have to have a bunch

36:27

of money in order to be a

36:30

giver in the first place. We're

36:32

thinking about wealth in a way that

36:34

is very unwealthy. This is a

36:36

very limited concept of abundance here, right? Like, if

36:38

you want to be wealthy, one thing you should

36:40

start with is having a wealthy definition of wealth.

36:43

And if your only concept of wealth is money

36:45

or stuff, that's not a very wealthy definition of

36:47

stuff or of wealth. And for

36:50

me, my father taught me to

36:52

practice the giver mindset early

36:54

on before you have a bunch of

36:56

stuff. Because what that does is

36:58

it forces you to look at yourself as

37:00

always having something to offer, even if it's

37:02

not money. You may have

37:04

kind words, you may have acts of

37:07

kindness, you may have perspective, you may

37:09

have time, energy, friendship, you don't have

37:11

to be a millionaire to give. And

37:13

so when it comes to this

37:15

question, I would say you don't have to...

37:17

If you never latch on, you never have

37:19

to let go, right? And so this idea

37:21

that like, man, like I'm only in a

37:23

position to let go if I have a bunch

37:26

of stuff, that's one way to go about it. But

37:28

another way to go about it is

37:30

to say, I'm committed to living

37:32

a life of generosity. And

37:35

I'm going to show up as a

37:37

generous person, no matter how much stuff

37:39

I have, because abundance is what I

37:41

am, not what I possess. I

37:44

love that. I think that as a

37:46

minimalist, money is

37:49

still a passenger in the car, but I no longer let

37:51

it drive the car for me. As a minimalist, I'm not allergic

37:53

to money. And

38:00

I think that's a misconception people often have.

38:03

We were talking earlier about frugality,

38:05

right? And in order

38:08

to be frugal, one must never spend

38:10

money on something that isn't absolutely necessary.

38:12

Well, I don't think that's true either.

38:14

We have something called the minimalist rule

38:16

book. It's 16 rules for living with

38:18

less. It's a free download on our

38:20

website at the minimalist.com. And

38:22

one of those rules is the no junk rule. And

38:25

it's real simple. It says everything you own or

38:27

everything you buy, everything you've ever owned fits in

38:30

one of three categories. It's either essential, it's

38:32

non-essential, but value adding, it enhances your life

38:35

in some way, or it is

38:37

junk. The problem is most of the things we

38:39

spend our money on is junk. And so it

38:41

doesn't matter if you're a millionaire or a billionaire,

38:43

you can waste all of your money, which by

38:46

the way, it's interesting, we always lump those two

38:48

terms in together. That's like saying a thousandaire and

38:50

a millionaire, because that's about

38:52

how different they are from one another,

38:54

right? And yet, I

38:57

find we get into trouble when we let

38:59

money drive the car for us. Because

39:01

here's what happens. I start making

39:04

all of my decisions based around income. And what

39:06

can that income do for me? And sometimes we

39:08

don't even know. I just need more money. Well,

39:10

for what? So I'll have more money, so I

39:12

can buy more things. Okay, what will those more

39:14

things do for you? I'll have more stuff. And

39:17

we never even sit down, even write it

39:19

out. Okay, what will I get from owning

39:21

that thing? What will I get from owning

39:23

that purse? What will I get from owning

39:25

that wallet? What will I get from owning

39:27

that makeup? And I'm not saying this pejoratively

39:29

that you shouldn't own these things. But

39:31

quite often, we don't even think about what am I actually

39:33

getting from the things I'm spending money

39:36

on. And I would say the same

39:38

thing is true with the amount of

39:40

money that I'm giving, right? I

39:42

told you earlier, when I walked away from the corporate world, I took a 90% pay cut,

39:45

but I was more generous that year, financially

39:47

and otherwise than any year previous to

39:50

that. Well, the first reason is because

39:53

I was exponentially more generous because for a decade,

39:55

even though I made really good money, I didn't

39:57

give in any real

39:59

capacity. Right? But when

40:01

I made generosity and giving

40:03

a priority, all of a sudden

40:06

I realized, oh, I can

40:08

contribute in so many ways. And one of

40:10

those ways is money, but other ways are

40:12

time and attention and love and caring. And

40:14

when you mix that all together, now all

40:17

of a sudden I have a real recipe

40:19

for contributing beyond myself in a meaningful way.

40:22

Yeah, there's a few principles here I'll lay out

40:24

as we wrap this. Number one is that money

40:27

is just a magnifying glass. It magnifies who

40:29

you are. So if you're a jerk and

40:31

you're broke, you're just going to be a

40:33

jerk who's wealthy later on. And

40:35

if you're a generous person when you're broke, you're

40:37

just going to be a really generous person when you've got

40:39

some money to give. And so we always

40:42

say give a little until you can give a

40:44

lot to TK's point. Generosity is not some milestone

40:46

you achieve once you hit millionaire status. And

40:49

the other piece of this is that wealth

40:51

to me is, as far as money goes, is

40:53

when money just turns into a tool instead of

40:55

an obstacle. And when you're broke, money's an obstacle.

40:58

And when you're wealthy, it becomes a tool

41:00

that you can use to serve your own

41:02

life, your family's life, your community, to

41:05

leave an impact. And so I think that's a

41:07

beautiful way to look at money. It's amoral. It's

41:09

just a brick. You can break a window. You

41:11

can build a school with it. It's up to

41:13

you what you do with it. And so I

41:16

think being generous is something that you should carry

41:18

throughout your entire financial journey. And why do we

41:20

demonize them? We tend to demonize millionaires. I said

41:22

at the top of the show, we were talking

41:24

about this, going from

41:27

broke to being a millionaire

41:29

is something that everyone wants

41:32

to do. Now, some people

41:34

prioritize it more than others, but everyone is

41:36

like, oh, that'd be nice to have

41:38

a million dollars show up in my account

41:40

or have a million dollar net worth. Can

41:42

we for a moment, A, can we

41:44

define what it means to be a millionaire?

41:46

Because some people think, oh, you must be

41:49

making a million dollars a year in order

41:51

to be a millionaire. That's not what we're

41:53

talking about. But second, can you talk about

41:55

why you think we

41:57

often demonize that label?

42:00

of millionaire. Yeah, this is another controversial

42:02

one for some reason. People think that I invented

42:04

the definition of net worth millionaire, and it's an

42:06

option more on because a millionaire is someone who

42:09

has a net worth of a million dollars or

42:11

more. That doesn't mean they make a million. It

42:13

doesn't mean they have a million dollars in cash

42:15

in the bank. It means what they own minus

42:17

what they owe equals $1 million or more. So

42:20

that counts equity in their house, what's in

42:22

their retirement accounts, what's in their savings accounts,

42:25

what are their cars worth. All of that

42:27

gets added up to equal your net worth.

42:29

And this is not my definition. It's not

42:31

my opinion. This is just accounting

42:33

101. And so that's a

42:35

good way to start it is I don't have a million

42:38

dollars in the bank. I don't have a million dollars in

42:40

retirement. But if you add up the equity in my home,

42:42

plus both of my wife and I's retirement accounts, plus the

42:44

cars and checking accounts and savings, it adds up to over

42:46

a million dollars. So it's that simple. The

42:49

other piece of it is why do we demonize this?

42:51

I think it's easy to demonize what we don't have.

42:54

It's out of envy and anger. It's

42:56

not fair that Joshua has a million and I don't,

42:58

therefore, that's not okay. And it's evil that he has

43:01

that much money. No one should have that much money.

43:04

Well, everything's relative. Their CEO is making

43:06

$40 million. Is that

43:08

fair that I don't make $40 million? Well,

43:10

I didn't do the work and I don't sit in that seat.

43:13

So I don't know what his life is like, or even if

43:15

it's a good life. And so we often,

43:17

it stems from an unhealthy,

43:19

ugly place on ourselves. And it reflects more

43:21

on us than it does on the person

43:23

with the money. It seems

43:25

to me, TK, that we get confused and

43:28

we assume that that money is going to

43:30

make us happy. But also, we also don't

43:32

recognize that it's just a concept because something

43:34

terrible could happen to the stock market tomorrow.

43:36

And all of a sudden, George is like,

43:38

I went from being broke to being 100,000-air,

43:40

right? Or

43:43

I went from being broke to being rich

43:45

to being broke again. It's possible. And so

43:47

part of it is just a concept and

43:49

it's how we frame our mind around it.

43:52

I once heard a comedian talk

43:54

about Jay-Z wanting to become a billionaire. He's

43:57

like, I don't understand him wanting to become

43:59

a billionaire. a billionaire because he

44:01

was one of the wealthiest millionaires and

44:03

now he's just the broke-est billionaire. Now,

44:07

that is a good book title. Right

44:09

there. A broke-est billionaire? I'd rate it.

44:12

All right. We're going to answer another question, a

44:14

fam's question here in a moment, but real quick

44:16

for right here, right now, here's one thing that's

44:18

going on in the life of the

44:20

minimalist. T.K. Coleman

44:23

just wrote his first book.

44:26

It is called Emotional Clutter. We're

44:28

going to talk about it a lot next week on the show,

44:31

but folks, listen to this right now. You

44:33

can go download it,

44:35

theminimalists.com/Emotional Clutter. You can

44:38

download it for free on our website. There's

44:40

also an audiobook version. T.K.

44:42

came in and read each chapter and then we

44:44

did a little mini podcast between each chapter, T.K.

44:46

and I, really going back and

44:48

forth on some of these ideas of emotional

44:51

clutter. Why did you want to tackle this

44:53

topic of emotional clutter, T.K.? Well,

44:55

when I joined you guys, I genuinely

44:57

felt then as I feel now that

45:00

you and Ryan have said just about everything that

45:02

needs to be said on physical clutter. And

45:05

all the questions that come in are

45:07

about physical clutter, or most of them at least.

45:10

But one of the parallels between the work that you

45:12

do and the work that we do is when you

45:14

listen to the questions that come in and

45:17

the conversation that ensues, there's

45:19

what people ask about, but then there's where

45:21

you need to take them in order to

45:23

resolve that issue. So all

45:25

your questions come in, they're about money, but the money questions

45:27

are never about money. The money

45:29

problems are relationship problems. There are problems with

45:31

self-defeating thoughts, habit, lifestyle problems, expectations that my

45:34

parents placed on me or that I put

45:36

on myself. And you're unpacking all of this

45:38

other baggage, which really isn't about the numbers.

45:40

And if you clear that up, you clear

45:43

away the numbers. And it's the same thing

45:45

with clutter. All of the clutter

45:47

that we deal with, all of the challenges that people

45:49

confront when they try to become better minimalists

45:51

or introduce simplicity into their lives, it's

45:54

all other kinds of intangible baggage.

45:57

Emotional clutter, relationship clutter, expectations. and

45:59

so on. And so I wanted to

46:02

begin the process of helping people unpack

46:05

some of the baggage that they have

46:07

that makes it a lot more difficult for them to

46:09

live simpler lives and go a little deeper than telling

46:11

them how to get rid of their stuff. George,

46:13

you see this all the time. The money problems are

46:16

never about just the money. If it

46:18

was just a mathematical equation, it'd be so much

46:20

simpler. And the same thing is true with minimalism.

46:22

If it was just about your stuff, I could

46:24

say, oh, here's all you do. You just rinse

46:26

the dumpster, you throw all your stuff in it,

46:28

and now you'll be perpetually blissful for the rest

46:30

of your life. But it doesn't

46:32

happen that way. In fact, what we see

46:34

quite often is someone clears out their closet,

46:36

but they don't realize why they accumulated

46:39

the stuff in the first place that was making

46:41

them miserable. And then a month later or a

46:44

quarter later or a year later, the closet is

46:46

recluttered with new things and more debt, more money

46:48

problems. That's why I love working with the Ramsey

46:50

team. You know, we've been working with y'all since

46:52

2017, 2018, been out on tour with y'all. And

46:54

what I've realized is

46:58

there's so much overlap between the

47:00

money problems and the stuff problems.

47:02

And now TK is sort of

47:04

completing this trinity here because there's

47:07

the emotional side of both of

47:09

those. So you can download Emotional

47:11

Clutter right now for free, theminimalists.com

47:13

slash Emotional Clutter, or you can buy

47:16

the audiobook version if you enjoy our

47:18

podcast. You'll certainly enjoy that. Let's answer

47:20

Pham's question, Malabama. So George, every month

47:22

we hop on a Zoom call with

47:25

all of our patrons and

47:27

they can turn their cameras off and just be a

47:29

fly on the wall. Or we just get on a

47:31

Zoom call and they start asking us questions. There's a

47:33

whole world that's going on in the chat. We call

47:35

it Pham's Friday afternoon, minimalist Zoom. Oh, I love that.

47:37

And we get to, it's like having a live event,

47:39

but right there on your computer

47:41

screen, we get to interact with you. And then Malabama's

47:44

in the chat and she is collecting all of

47:46

your questions that we don't get a chance

47:48

to answer on that Friday

47:50

afternoon, minimalist Zoom. We have one

47:52

today from Amy. Any

47:54

advice about how to let go

47:57

of excessive and expensive Lego collections?

48:00

I'm guilty of having way too much, but

48:02

I'm finding it hard to let go of

48:04

even half of it. So

48:06

we're going to talk about letting go briefly,

48:08

but I've realized that the doorway to decluttering

48:10

is sort of adorned with the benefits of

48:12

living with less. Let me unpack that real

48:14

quick. So right now,

48:17

you don't know why you want to get

48:19

rid of Legos. It seems like maybe there's

48:21

an external force that's telling you you should

48:24

have fewer Legos. Now, the appropriate number of

48:26

Legos for me is zero. And so if

48:28

I have one Lego and I step on it,

48:30

it's the benefit I

48:32

know right now is I'm not going to step on the

48:34

Legos anymore. One Lego brick. I want to make sure the

48:37

Lego community knows I'm here for them. People

48:39

get very upset. You don't say it's a

48:41

Lego brick as opposed to what? A

48:43

Lego Lego. It has to be a Lego brick

48:45

that you stepped on. Maybe I stepped on one

48:47

of the little figurines though. There we go. Little

48:49

guys. Yeah. I don't

48:51

know what those are called. Sorry. Lego

48:53

community. Cancel him. Don't come after me. Let him know

48:56

in the comments, please. What happens here is quite often

48:58

we feel like we're supposed to let go of something

49:01

because it's the right thing to do. And

49:03

if you're getting immense value from a Lego

49:06

collection and you're building and it's

49:08

adding to your creativity and it

49:11

doesn't feel like a burden at all, then wonderful.

49:14

I'm going to be the guy that says maybe you

49:16

need more Legos, right? But if

49:18

you're at a point where you're like, oh, this feels a

49:20

little burdensome. Okay. Why does it feel burdensome?

49:22

Is it literally getting in the way? Are you stepping on the

49:24

Legos at night? Are you bothered

49:27

by the space that they're taking up? Are

49:29

you bothered by the amount of money you

49:31

continue to spend every single month on Legos?

49:33

And by the way, take out the word

49:35

Lego for a second and apply that to

49:37

anything else in your life. It

49:39

could be that you're buying these precious

49:42

moments figurines or you have a blue

49:44

jean collection. I used to have 70 dress

49:48

shirts. You got to work really hard

49:50

to wear 70 dress shirts in the span of between

49:52

laundry. And so what

49:55

is your collection doing for you? And

49:57

if it's adding a value to your life, it's not

49:59

a problem. problem, but something added

50:02

value yesterday may cease to add value

50:04

today or tomorrow. So I have to

50:06

keep questioning it. Yeah, you might

50:08

have really gotten value from Legos like I did

50:10

when I was a kid, but I ceased getting

50:12

value from them. Now if I kept holding on

50:14

to them, that's when they'd become a burden. Any

50:17

thoughts on that story? Well, I took a call

50:19

recently on the Ramsey Show and it was very

50:21

similar. And this guy called in and he had

50:23

a Pokemon card collection and he told me it

50:25

was worth And

50:28

I was shocked. If it was true, I

50:30

was like, okay, that's amazing. Here's the problem

50:32

though. He had a new baby on the

50:34

way, his first kid with his wife and

50:36

he was broken in $50,000, $60,000 of

50:38

debt. So at the

50:40

end of the call, he tells me, but I have this Pokemon collection

50:42

worth $70,000. I was like, oh my gosh, we just

50:45

cracked the case. Sell the Pokemon

50:47

collection, pay off the debt. You're about to be

50:49

a dad. And I could tell

50:51

in his voice, he couldn't do it. He was like,

50:53

I don't think I can let go of it. And

50:56

in my mind, I went, he's truly

50:58

prioritizing his stuff, these

51:00

Pokemon cards over his family's

51:02

safety and freedom and financial

51:04

future. And that broke my heart that

51:06

he was unable to let go of that and see

51:08

what was on the other side. I

51:11

was like, you're about to be a dad, but

51:13

your identity is changing. You're no longer the Pokemon

51:15

card collector. Maybe one day we'll get back there.

51:17

Right now we need to have different priorities in place as

51:19

we bring this new life into the world. But

51:22

I think when it comes to the value, that

51:24

Lego collection has an immense value financially.

51:27

And therefore it feels like why would

51:29

I let go of this when it

51:31

has financial value, even though it has

51:33

no emotional value? That's a

51:35

hard thing to parse through. You

51:39

know, if I were to hold up a $100 bill and

51:41

then take a lighter, start burning it, people

51:43

would be furious at me. And if

51:46

I were to defend myself by saying, look, this is stressing me

51:48

out. I just want to let it go. And this is what

51:50

I'm doing. I'm letting it go. People

51:52

wouldn't accept that because they understand this thing

51:54

that I'm burning is a form

51:56

of creative energy and that it can

51:58

be really valuable to someone. else if I give it

52:00

away. And so people don't have a problem with me

52:02

letting it go, but it's the notion of

52:05

me burning it up rather than giving it

52:07

away. Sometimes when we think

52:09

about letting things go, we

52:12

forget that we're dealing with a form of

52:14

creative energy. And so we only think about

52:16

it in terms of having to get rid

52:18

of it. I possess this

52:20

beautiful collection of things. I possess

52:22

this really awesome antique furniture or

52:24

whatever it may be. And

52:26

I'm no longer going to possess it. I'm getting rid

52:29

of it. And that feels a lot like burning money.

52:31

There's something on the inside of you yelling at you

52:33

saying, no, you can't do that. And you're going, but

52:35

I need to let it go. And something's saying, no,

52:37

you can't do that. And why is that voice telling

52:39

you no? Because what you're dealing with is creative energy.

52:41

And so what you have to do if you want

52:43

to have the power to let things go, you've got

52:45

to look at this stuff and you got to say,

52:48

this is not something I got to get rid of.

52:51

This is a form of creative energy that

52:53

I can transform. I can alchemize this. And

52:55

I can do something different with it. To

52:57

let it go isn't to throw it away.

53:00

It's to do something different with this energy

53:02

that can never be destroyed. You can sell

53:04

that and then use that wealth to buy

53:06

something better. You can give it away to

53:09

someone who would value it much more than

53:11

you, but you're not throwing it away. You're

53:13

not getting rid of it. You're just transforming

53:15

it and choosing to put that

53:18

energy out to the world and make a difference in someone

53:20

else's life. We've got several more

53:22

questions for you, a bunch more questions actually,

53:24

but first, in Alabama, what do you got

53:26

for us? Here's a minimalist insight from one

53:28

of our listeners. Hello,

53:31

the minimalist. I'm Noémie from France.

53:34

I decided to become a Patreon

53:37

subscriber a few months ago and it

53:39

has been one of the best investments

53:41

I've made this year. Just

53:43

for an example, a few days

53:46

ago I was in a shop and I

53:48

found a cute t-shirt. It

53:50

looked nice, but because of the fabrics, the colors

53:52

and the shape of it, I thought, I'm not

53:54

going to use it most days. I'm not going

53:56

to wear it. So it's going to be a

53:59

little bit of a to be in my wardrobe

54:01

most of the time and it didn't

54:03

feel good. I didn't like the idea

54:06

of clutter. So I decided to leave

54:08

the shop not buying it and

54:10

I have to say it felt so good. I felt

54:13

so relaxed leaving the shop and

54:16

I want to thank you for that because

54:18

I really feel that I had

54:21

an intuition but listening to your podcast

54:23

made it clearer. I really

54:26

feel like right now I feel

54:28

what feels right or

54:31

wrong in my purchase process

54:33

and I can really connect

54:35

to my intuition much better.

54:37

Bye. I hope you have

54:39

a very nice day. Thank you. Bye. All

54:45

right y'all we'll see you on

54:47

Patreon for the full two-hour maximal

54:49

edition of episode 426 with George

54:51

Camel which includes answers to a

54:54

bunch more questions. Also I think I made TK

54:56

the most uncomfortable I've ever made him

54:58

during our TK's

55:02

tweet of the week segment. I

55:05

made George uncomfortable. The studio audience

55:07

was uncomfortable. My microphone was blushing. We

55:12

also answer a bunch of other questions like

55:14

why don't you guys care about your credit

55:17

scores. We're going to talk about credit scores

55:19

and really why your credit score doesn't really

55:21

matter but really why doesn't it

55:23

matter and I think that's important because there

55:25

are a lot of misconceptions around this. Also

55:28

what's the best way to approach tipping culture

55:30

when everyone seems to expect the tip just

55:32

for doing their freaking job these days TK.

55:34

Also can you share your thoughts

55:36

on rainy day funds 529 education

55:39

plans and precious metals as

55:41

an investment. We also did a bit

55:43

of a deep dive maybe as a

55:45

medium dive on Bitcoin during

55:48

the private podcast as well plus a

55:50

million more questions and simple living segments

55:52

over there on the minimalist private podcast.

55:54

Visit patreon.com/the minimalist or just click the

55:56

link down in the description to subscribe

55:58

and get your personal link

56:01

so that our weekly maximal episodes play

56:03

in your favorite podcast app. You also

56:05

gain access to all of our archives

56:07

all the way back to episode 001

56:11

way back in 2015. All

56:13

of the archives are over there on Patreon.

56:15

By the way, Patreon is now offering free

56:17

trials so if you'd like to test drive

56:19

our private podcast you can join for seven

56:22

days for free. Big thanks to George Camel

56:24

for joining us today you can check out

56:26

his new book. It is called Breaking Free

56:29

from Broke. We'll put a link to

56:31

this in the show notes as well. That

56:33

is our minimal episode for today. If you

56:36

leave here with just one message. Let

56:39

it be this. Love

56:41

people and use things

56:44

because the opposite never works.

56:48

Thanks for listening y'all. We'll see you next time.

56:50

Peace. Every

56:52

little thing you think that

56:55

you need. Every

56:57

little thing you think that

56:59

you need. Every

57:01

little thing that you see in

57:04

your greed. Oh I bet that

57:06

you'd be happy without it.