0:19

Ever heard of stream?

0:21

neat thing birch me

0:23

every little thing. New

0:26

thing, Virginie. Every

0:28

little thing that's just feeding

0:30

the agree to our bear

0:32

that you live. Without

0:35

he. You're.

0:38

Listening. To the Minimalist podcast with

0:40

Joshua Fields Melbourne and Tk Calm and.

0:42

Big you Malibu Ama! Hello everybody!

0:44

Today on the show we're joined

0:47

by Cowl Newport, a professor of

0:49

Computer Science at Georgetown, where he

0:51

is also a founding member of

0:53

the Center for Digital Ethics. Cow

0:56

is a New York Times bestselling

0:58

author who writes about the intersection

1:00

of technology, productivity, and culture. His

1:02

latest book is called slow Productivity.

1:05

Coming up on this free public,

1:07

a Minimal Episode of Color has

1:09

a question about the modern need

1:11

to be busy. And productive

1:13

in the workplace. Then we've got

1:16

a different kind of lightning round

1:18

segment today. Cow is going to

1:20

try to convince the minimalists that

1:22

we should quit social media. We've

1:24

also got an interesting listener tip

1:27

for you. You can check out

1:29

the for maximal edition of episode

1:31

Four Hundred and Thirty Five, where

1:33

we answer five times the questions

1:35

and we dive deep into several

1:38

simple living segments. That private podcast

1:40

episode is our right now a

1:42

patriotic.com. Slash the minimalists. Your support

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1:57

you, give us a call for

1:59

Zero Six. One Nine Seventy

2:01

Three Nine or email a voice

2:03

recording right from your phone's to

2:06

podcast that's bizarre minimalists.com or first

2:08

question today is from Sandra. Suggests.

2:12

That the rhine and ck. This is

2:14

Sandra reaching out from San Jose, California

2:16

and I wonder what you guys now

2:19

that your words has been life changing

2:21

for me and I really appreciate all

2:23

that. Easier for your listeners and readers.

2:26

I also have tickets to your tour

2:29

stop in San Francisco. so July just

2:31

can't come fast enough for me. Today

2:34

I want to share something that

2:36

I've been seeing happening more and

2:39

more these days. People seem to

2:41

be hooked on what I call

2:43

a perpetual cycle of problem and

2:45

solution finding at work. We strive

2:47

to be problem solvers or problem

2:49

and says the Peters. For.

2:52

Doing so we are perceived

2:54

as high value workers and

2:56

having power of influence in

2:58

our employers recognize and reward

3:00

of for it. Even

3:02

a times when they weren't any

3:04

inherent problems to be solved, we're

3:07

conditioned to seek an solve in

3:09

crete value at all times. It

3:12

almost has become the crucial way of

3:14

gaining our sense of value or worse.

3:17

A muzzle. Things happening outside the

3:19

workspace. Just. About anywhere these

3:21

days. I mean who

3:24

doesn't want to have strong problem solving

3:26

skills? But. How we become

3:28

and oversaw the problem maximizing

3:31

economy. Is. There's such

3:33

a thing as a tipping point for

3:35

a solution pulitzer. Would. Love

3:37

to get your thoughts on this. Date:

3:41

Hell new form of the store

3:43

with you on a soccer ball,

3:45

some of the principles, your new

3:47

books or productivity and sector. So

3:49

three principles of slow productivity. Before

3:52

we do that though, I think

3:54

for problem. Is about Her

3:56

question is about problem solving skills quite

3:58

often ask do with productivity. In general

4:00

any broadly defined what we mean

4:02

we talk about productivity for us

4:05

In for questioning, get to the

4:07

core problem about productivity. Which

4:09

is we don't have. A

4:12

good definition of this is the whole motivation when

4:14

I was writing this book is that I went

4:16

out and surveyed a bunch My readers and I

4:19

are some a simple question. What?

4:21

Does it mean to be productive? No

4:23

one an answer. Right? I mean they

4:25

were describing a sense elites their jobs. or

4:27

there's a lot of like, well, the do like

4:29

my jaw, They're describing a job or have

4:31

a good definition of like how do we measure

4:34

if you're productive are not productive and and

4:36

I think this is really the problem. So what

4:38

happens is we end up using activity. Visible

4:41

activity. As. A proxy

4:43

for doing something useful. Dizziness, and I

4:45

think bad as what. Sanders. Pick

4:47

it up on. Problem. Solving is

4:49

very activity based. It's okay I can

4:51

be on an email saying I can

4:53

be in a slack thread he admitted

4:55

a sushi or think I have a

4:57

solutions you leaving a digital breadcrumbs trail

5:00

of your activity and it all sorted

5:02

gives an appearance of performances. And

5:04

be productive. That. Is quite different

5:06

that another definition of productivity, which would be

5:08

one based on useful output. Like. I

5:10

produced this thing this year. That's.

5:13

A really great. And it's cool and

5:15

is valuable and I'm proud of it. Writes:

5:17

That's the type A definition that we as

5:19

humans wants the drift towards and I think

5:21

what we're stuck with right now without that

5:24

is was just be visibly active. I think

5:26

that's what he means by problem solving. Culture

5:28

is I'm always time in ends. I can

5:30

point out an issue, I can give a

5:32

solution. It doesn't matter if that's important. It's.

5:35

Visible. And. That's the game I think

5:37

as you seem people whom. Were. Searching

5:39

for problems the don't exist because human

5:41

beings are problem solving machines quite often

5:44

write them because real problems do exist

5:46

whom we don't have one in front

5:48

of us, especially in a workplace were

5:50

being busy is valued. In fact, it's

5:52

considered a virtue sir. What happens is

5:55

we start looking for problems that might

5:57

not exist and therefore creating a really

5:59

sad. Then we creating problems. You become

6:01

an email warrior. A

6:04

cast of i'm finding problems that's gonna generate a

6:06

lot of messages and I can be involved in

6:08

these threads and let me just chime in here

6:10

and I can use the jargon of like a

6:12

let me just Hop in here and I want

6:14

to sort of I want to. plus one. What

6:16

was once in your Sandra Diaz said they're both

6:18

know is hop on a call the Synergy eyes

6:20

on what's going on with these hybrid act as

6:22

you get all the jargon and it looks like

6:24

a man your hard charging look at that you're

6:26

in there. You're finding these things are going on

6:29

now. Compare that to I'm working on a product.

6:31

Advertising. Said you. Know. Or understand

6:33

her working on it. As can take me

6:35

a couple weeks he could hear from you for a

6:37

couple weeks. That's really terrified because as

6:40

far as your boss is, no a year

6:42

I just listened a minimalist podcast are they

6:44

don't know what you're doing right? so it

6:46

feels much more comfortable. To. Be

6:48

visibly asked if it's a problem solving I

6:50

think as a way to always sort of

6:53

be in that digital mix and a courses

6:55

the prom we have to solve his get

6:57

a definition. Productivity that avoids all that. This.

7:00

Or the whole challenges for activists are

7:02

downs. Banning Sandra picking up exactly what's

7:04

affecting lot of people will succumb of

7:07

those three principles of so productivity yes

7:09

to slip productivity was. Think of it

7:11

as an alternative to business as a

7:13

proxy for productivity. So. How

7:16

else might we define productivity if we

7:18

don't want? It's just the be out

7:20

visibly. Active am I doing work?

7:22

So we had no three principles. Do

7:24

fewer things. Work

7:28

at a natural face. Not

7:30

so terrifying, but people like I get away with that.

7:33

And and three obsess over quality. As

7:35

an alternative way of thinking about

7:37

productive that I argue is much

7:40

more aligned with our humanity, It's

7:42

sustainable is meaningful. He. Produces

7:44

really good stuff as well so it's going

7:46

to be impactful. Those three things I think

7:48

as a lot more suman, lot more human

7:51

way to get up productivity. I do want

7:53

to talk about doing fewer things, but I

7:55

wanted circle around the i'm hundreds of highlight

7:57

the last one there and in that is

7:59

the. Obsess over quality in the

8:02

book. You talk about impressive

8:04

quality and I want to.

8:06

Caution People though, I don't think

8:08

you mean try to impress other

8:11

people with that, it's Am. I'm

8:13

impressed by the work. Than. And

8:15

my satisfied. Yeah, the work that I'm doing.

8:17

isn't it fair to stinks? And yeah, that

8:19

you're you're continually trying to evolve your own

8:21

sense of taste. So. You're You're

8:24

becoming more sophisticated in your understanding

8:26

of what good means. In

8:28

whatever it is you do so as that. Definition.

8:31

Of what good means gets more sophisticated.

8:33

The gap between that and we currently

8:35

are gross. And. Then you do effort to

8:37

fill the gap and then you make that more sophisticated

8:39

than you fill the gap in that some people get

8:42

better and it has very little to do with people.

8:44

Been impressed. As. It does with

8:46

this is gonna make your work meaningful

8:48

but also. I call that

8:50

principle the glue for everything else. It makes

8:52

everything else possible. So. If you

8:54

get good at something and continue to get good

8:57

at something, that's valuable. Slowness

8:59

is going to become a necessity. Bread.

9:01

You look at people who are very good at things they

9:03

don't want to be busy. To. Be

9:05

busy gets in the way of doing nothing

9:08

really good, so suddenly slowness, doing fewer things,

9:10

working out a natural pace is no longer

9:12

something that you're having to impose with great

9:14

difficulty. It seems the only national thing you

9:17

can do and into as you had better

9:19

at things you gain more leverage. Over

9:22

your on working life because you're good and

9:24

yet leverage in the marketplace and you to

9:26

apply that leverage to slow things down. Even.

9:28

More as you're one of the stories I tell in

9:31

the book is about do all. The

9:33

music does young star course after

9:35

she got. Month of

9:37

Vapor my family day bird. I've only

9:40

the company well as a sponsor of

9:42

this podcast. Or

9:44

an advertiser sockets of our sponsor

9:46

jewel. Assess

9:49

assess about be a hard turn dies

9:51

out on out about that for the

9:53

i gotta get that bag Dj Vu.it

9:55

well and you have to be on

9:57

camera baby. Minutes

10:00

out of every episode under contract. Sorry

10:03

Nashua was just enjoying the middle

10:06

school Alyssa flavor. Of

10:09

pretty good a. Totally

10:13

derailed. You have different you all the

10:16

different you will hurt we're takes off

10:18

she goes on international to are complex

10:20

and international to are like okay guide

10:22

to the Hollywood thing to say move

10:24

or here season as English film. And

10:27

Devil's Backbone and or representations like

10:29

this is the playbook seem like

10:31

a Taylor Swift Playbooks International to.

10:34

In. Between Hollywood. Movies

10:36

image. We are national tourists as it was

10:39

a second. I'm rich now.

10:41

I don't want to do that. I want

10:43

to write music. Never did international to her

10:45

again. Never to another movie gets you like no I

10:47

don't want to do that. I'm gonna write music in put out

10:49

albums, By been really does

10:51

use able to control that. So.

10:53

With obsessing over quality makes everything else

10:55

possible to on slow down within the

10:58

opposite for someone else might be true.

11:00

They really enjoyed the touring aspect of

11:02

it and so what you're talking about

11:04

is doing. See where things are? You

11:06

can do the things that you enjoy

11:08

death. So if we take Taylor Swift

11:10

as as the other examples, she went

11:13

all in on The Tories. Like.

11:15

I'm going to be the best! To

11:17

are so that has ever existed. Start to

11:19

a lot of movies is not starting to

11:22

as Nervous Fitness app. I mean she doesn't

11:24

know and with all these days you could

11:26

do as it does. This is the saying

11:28

she wanted to do was be the best

11:31

touring best her inside that ever been. Yeah

11:33

he focus on what you want to do

11:35

Well slowness just becomes inevitable you know so

11:37

that that principle as last. But.

11:39

It almost sort of so to be. First you

11:41

know, start with of the fireworks I do you

11:43

are sayings and you know you'll be okay like

11:45

Kings Cross off your to do list and can

11:47

be ok. Here's why that's all exciting. But.

11:50

The obsessing over call is really what makes it all work.

11:53

With saw saying is, there seems

11:55

to be this direct connection

11:57

between being free from dizziness and.

12:00

Choosing to prioritize what's interesting

12:02

and inspiring for you over

12:04

what's impressive to other people's

12:06

because busy is a powerful

12:08

social signal. And the moment I

12:10

need to be impressive, That means I need to

12:13

to look productive. To. Other people and

12:15

when I'm busy. Man, even if my results

12:17

arden great, he can't question the fact that

12:19

he can't really has tried if he really

12:21

is working hard to give him the benefit

12:23

of the doubt when the results. followup. short

12:25

bus. When you take away that business, you

12:27

don't have that social signal and so you

12:29

can have to. Create. Something that

12:32

that matters to have it well. and it

12:34

it's a social signal and. It's.

12:36

Less scary, So. I see.

12:38

Other thing that makes business so attractive is

12:40

that it's less scary thing going for something

12:43

that you really care about. Is

12:45

can't really sale a dizziness. The

12:47

it's you. You're gonna succeed at looking busy If

12:49

you want to be busy right? I mean you're

12:51

going send emails are going jump on zoom scenery.

12:53

Saw this of is. Somewhat. Unusual place

12:56

to witness a close ya My

12:58

computer scientist a graduate school. right?

13:00

So I got my doctorate at Mit in

13:02

the series group which is very. Scary.

13:06

Is it is big monster minds like walking around

13:08

and you feel like you're You know what a

13:10

Kindergartner Eight. People. Had

13:12

different reactions to this. And a

13:15

com and saying that what happened this

13:17

was a common trope in any elite

13:19

sort of science based graduate school, is

13:21

that certain students would be so intimidated

13:23

by the task else you got. I

13:25

just write. A really good

13:27

research paper and it's gonna be objective. We

13:29

judged and it has to get accepted into

13:31

a place where it's hard to get accepted in

13:33

all these monster minds are going know if it's

13:36

good or bad? That was so scary. That

13:38

you had a subset of students that instead

13:40

went into business mode. And you would

13:42

see it right away. In grad school the students did

13:45

had all these things going on there, very hairy and

13:47

they were jumping into all these clubs and activities and

13:49

were always strong. My god I have so much going

13:51

on. you know immediately a killer soon as I can

13:53

make it through. His. They are

13:56

using the busy ness. As

13:58

a way to avoid the. The

14:00

thing which didn't require business you might right

14:02

to papers a year later, spending most of

14:04

your times staring at whiteboards and just trying

14:06

to solve things. And so I think that

14:08

happens in the economy writ large businesses less

14:10

scary. For. Safe place to hide. Gonna

14:12

succeed. Have been busy? I might not succeed at the

14:14

thing I care about. You. Can't fail

14:16

at being busy is one of

14:19

the bass maxims I've heard all

14:21

year. Know their. Pre. That

14:23

professor shown. Or. Maybe don't sweet it. will

14:25

figure this out later. Now

14:27

not sure. Glad

14:29

a hero Soccer's out of social media

14:32

here in a bit. Before we move

14:34

on to that though I do not

14:36

stop and talk about working at a

14:38

natural taste like in the Bhagat. Sometimes

14:40

working in a natural pace apes the

14:42

form of business, as if you talk

14:44

about Jack Kerouac riding on the road

14:46

over a three week period and it

14:49

was almost manic or frantic rates. But

14:51

that is not a sustainable pace. It's

14:53

almost peaks and valleys. There can you

14:55

expand on that have been? This was

14:57

actually my way into the whole philosophy

14:59

of slow productivity. The saying that got

15:02

me started down this path. Was.

15:04

Encountering the lives of people who

15:06

we seem to have historically has

15:08

been super productive. So.

15:11

Great scientists, Are also great

15:13

writers. These are the first examples I had. And

15:15

then reading about these people. So. Reading

15:18

about Newton or Galileo but us more contemporary

15:20

Slater John Wick See was another one. These

15:22

examples early aughts. Day to

15:24

day they looked at lazy. By.

15:27

Suit Reproductive Rights. This stuff took a long

15:29

time, right? I mean John Wick. See. I

15:31

opened my book on a story of John

15:34

Wick Seats Lane on a picnic table in

15:36

his backyard for five. This. Five.

15:38

Days This lane. they're trying to figure out readiness big

15:41

New Yorker article about the Pine Barrens and was just

15:43

trying to figure out how do we take all this

15:45

research. I couldn't find his way into the article, so

15:47

he laid on a table for five days. If we

15:49

zoomed in the one of those days with her twenty

15:52

twenty four minds like this is the latest guy, Ossie.

15:54

He's not doing anything, he says lane there but then

15:56

you zoom out and say oh yeah, oh, she's written

15:58

twenty nine bucks. The Pulitzer two

16:01

finalists or National Book Award: A.

16:03

Peerless in his contributions to the New

16:05

Yorker. in his class at Princeton, he

16:07

did train with the whole next generation

16:10

of riders Courses you're for productive. But.

16:12

When you zoom in on the day to day

16:15

sometimes he was doing nothing the great scientist for

16:17

like this as well. I was surprised by how

16:19

long it would take for them to have the

16:21

insight of something they are famous for. And.

16:24

Then actually break that up and publishers. we're

16:26

talking over decades of after. It's yes, like

16:28

Galileo, you'll He measured the swinging lights in

16:30

the cathedral was his pulse. couldn't have a

16:32

watch in a sweet cigarette out. pendulum motion,

16:35

conservation funds will. Most of it was almost

16:37

a decade later that he got around the

16:39

writing that up. Newton held onto the core

16:41

insights about the inverse square law of gravity

16:43

hits in Tel. Aviv late in

16:45

his life when finally he her Leibnitz

16:48

is sort of coming along in doing

16:50

something similar. Decades later he wrote that

16:52

of Darwin. decades after he had the

16:54

central insights you know wrote it up,

16:56

Galileo at a really active life and

16:59

engaging in the arts he played alludes

17:01

and enjoy poetry and see it or

17:03

and they just took their time. You

17:06

know they took their time. Very curious And

17:08

other examples Hot on the discovery of for

17:11

Syria of radioactivity that would earn her the

17:13

first have to know about you want to

17:15

nobel prizes to to her feals Hot on

17:17

the about the get discovery right She sees

17:20

as studying a substance called pitchblende and isolating

17:22

out of it radium. Skyn, Nobel

17:24

prizes, Goes on a two

17:26

week or two months rather to my situation

17:28

with her family. Some was got the summer

17:31

let's go to Wisconsin some time was go

17:33

recharge like by the busy the standards of

17:35

modern times like this is what a waste

17:37

of productivity but these for. The.

17:39

Most productive for talk to people of history

17:42

to Nobel prizes. I mean, if that's not

17:44

productive, what s two months off for vacation?

17:47

In the heart of her talking

17:49

the stamps, so the natural pace

17:51

idea. That. People.

17:53

In times past to produce great thanks

17:55

did not work. Nine to five

17:57

shifts. By. Days a week. Twelve.

18:01

Months a year. That's factory. That's a factory

18:03

model. It's not the natural pace for how

18:05

the human mind does cause and if work.

18:07

and so we've we've stuck ourselves this invisible

18:09

factory model because it's what was convenient when

18:11

knowledge were became a thing like a little

18:13

the factories are doing was do the same

18:15

thing we should like have a work day

18:17

and which is work all day, should be

18:19

intense all day and on. Slack off and

18:21

just do this year round. But we forgot

18:23

that the factory model was the artificial thing.

18:26

That came along, it did not play

18:28

well with. Humans like we had

18:30

to invent labor unions and whole regulatory frameworks

18:32

because this was such a natural way to

18:35

work to. we had to sort of protect

18:37

people from how hard it was. But then

18:39

when knowledge were comes along with a city

18:41

that. And so the

18:43

do she were things thing sounds really

18:45

nice. yeah but I'm pretty myself in

18:48

the shoes of the average was There

18:50

are the headphones of the average listener

18:52

here and I imagine a like a

18:54

lot of sounds great. you do fewer

18:56

things. Tell that to my boss. Oh

18:58

goodness yes sir. If I add two

19:01

more words to that, principal people have

19:03

a lot easier time with it. So.

19:05

I can add to two extra words that's

19:07

going to clarify. It's. Do fewer

19:10

sayings that once. Rates.

19:13

Fewer things at once. Will

19:16

probably end up. You accomplishing more

19:18

things over all. right? So

19:20

that there's there's actually a a. Sort

19:23

of inversion going on here, doing fewer things

19:26

at the same time. Means.

19:28

The rate at which you actually fence things is gonna

19:30

go us now. I. Don't wanna just harp

19:32

on that, I just will interlude in the book.

19:34

Crazy. but that's not. That's not what this is

19:36

all about is not all about or stealth productivity

19:38

that if you do fewer things at once are

19:40

going to be more productive over all the stuff

19:42

that point the point is having too much on

19:44

your plate the same times. Also inhuman it's It's

19:46

very stressful is not sustainable. But. It

19:49

is gonna produce more things, which means it's

19:51

not going to be that hard to get

19:53

away with because actually your boss is gonna

19:55

be impressed. With. A teacher like. You.

19:57

Did a lot this year later. things are going really

19:59

well. Because here's what happened. and here's my

20:01

whole argument for why this makes sense. When.

20:03

You say yes to something? He. Brings

20:06

with it administrative overhead. Like.

20:08

Whether you're ready to work on it or not,

20:11

once you've agreed on something there's been be emails

20:13

you have to san people are going to ask

20:15

you about it's you might have those dreaded standing

20:17

meetings you know, like okay every week was like

20:19

have a midi must seconds I call it overhead

20:21

tax in the box. If you say

20:24

yes to too many things, They each

20:26

spring their own overhead tax. This.

20:28

takes up more and more of your day. And.

20:30

Not just in terms of raw time,

20:33

but in terms of fragmentation. So these

20:35

emails and meetings are distributed throughout your

20:37

Dc of less and less uninterrupted time.

20:40

Your. Ability than to accomplish anything goes down. You

20:42

have less time to actually do work and

20:44

a time you have is more fragmented. So.

20:46

Now the amount of stuff you're getting done is

20:48

pretty small because most your times actually jumping back

20:51

and forth to in the administrative overhead with what's

20:53

on your plates as you instead say no no

20:55

no I'm only bringing. Two. Things on

20:57

my plea to the time. Isn't some pretty

20:59

clear. Does not? Most of

21:01

your day is actually working on the

21:04

thanks not talking about decks. And

21:06

in those things get done pretty quick and you

21:08

can bring something else on your plate. knack. It's

21:10

done pretty quick and this is way more sustainable.

21:12

There's nothing more deranged. Then

21:14

having a day where almost all of your time

21:17

is spent talking about works and because of that

21:19

you can't finish what's on your plates. And because

21:21

of that, you fall behind. And because of that,

21:23

more things come on your plate and a whole

21:25

thing gets worse. We see this all the times.

21:28

About twice a year you have to declare basically

21:30

burnout bankruptcy. That. Are I I uncle

21:32

right? And then you get out of a lot

21:34

of things by very vocal he saying I'm completely

21:36

crushed and bercow. It's. The Range.

21:38

you're sitting there during your days in. I can't

21:40

get anything because all we have all these meetings

21:42

about these things could have too many things on

21:44

my plate. Admit is really

21:47

not a cynical way to actually organized cognitive

21:49

efforts. Could. See where things at once?

21:51

How do we get here with all the

21:53

standing meetings? I mean that is the status

21:55

quo and so many people still more productive.

21:57

So many companies fell like they're doing the.

22:00

The thing how do we get there

22:02

will stand meetings at a particular issue

22:04

was because to me it's a standing

22:06

meeting is an admission of I have

22:08

no real way of organizing myself or

22:10

my time. The only thing

22:12

I actually trust is my calendar. If I have

22:14

a meeting on my calendar is the one thing

22:16

I look at every day and I'll go to

22:19

that meetings of people you're standing mediums as a

22:21

stand in for having a more sophisticated ability to

22:23

control their time and attention to this as I

22:25

want to feel better that I'm not going to

22:27

forget this. Was put a meeting on

22:29

the counter. Every week I go to meetings I look at

22:31

my calendars to one system I trust. And

22:33

so these to kinda proliferates. But the

22:35

bigger problem is. There. Is

22:38

especially in and Knowledge Work and Creative

22:40

Knowledge works. We don't

22:42

have any explicit system from workload

22:44

management. Other fields

22:46

have this. Here's how many things you should be

22:48

working on. His soon to be more than that's

22:50

what are you working on? Here it is. We

22:52

have it listed up on some board. We have

22:54

some methodology about figuring out how to choose what

22:56

to work on nests we don't do this and

22:59

dollars worth. Of the individuals.

23:01

Did you say yes or no? Often in so

23:04

so he fraught dynamics of you know it's going

23:06

oh I don't want to say no to some

23:08

on who's my boss or they might think that

23:10

on loafing as it's is really complicated set ups.

23:12

We have no way of tracking how much where

23:14

people are doing and so what people default to.

23:17

Is. Using a heuristic of i

23:19

will wait until I'm so stressed

23:21

about my workload. That

23:23

I see a like that stress. Give

23:26

me permission, the say no a justify,

23:28

say no And until I still really stressed

23:30

about my workload, I'm just going to

23:32

feel in an interpersonal since guilty about

23:34

say know this a social capital I'm

23:36

spending and so people just wait until

23:38

their overloaded. To start putting the

23:40

governor on and how much comes in as everyone

23:42

just remains twenty percent overload. One more I gotta.

23:45

I. Gotta get this. When

23:48

you say do fewer things one objecting to be

23:50

tell that to my boss and other objects to

23:52

be tell that to my doubting self When you

23:55

work in an unorthodox way, it invites a lot

23:57

of questions and scrutiny from other people. But what

23:59

about. Since we ask ourselves like if

24:01

I'm John Mcphee and I'm on day four

24:03

now you have lying on the picnic table

24:06

thinking of ideas. Maybe Isis force myself to

24:08

do something productive? How do you deal with

24:10

that? Yeah well some would see had experienced

24:12

by them. So he knew. Okay, this

24:14

is how the skills. Like I'm going

24:17

to break the soon I and I knew it's com

24:19

it's I think the bigger picture of the other

24:21

question there's is treated right Like how do you. How

24:24

do you convince other people and and what wonder

24:26

things they argue is? don't. They

24:28

don't make a big show about. It. Just

24:31

starts A we don't realize as we say

24:33

no to a lot of things right? I

24:35

mean if we to said yes to everything

24:37

A came are ways we would have forty

24:39

hours a workaday right? So we see know

24:41

a lot so all you really doing is

24:44

moving that line that threshold of when you

24:46

start saying no from the perspective of the

24:48

outsiders who are bringing stuff since they don't

24:50

know the difference. So if

24:52

if we imagine your son was a closed system, all

24:54

I know when going to admit some science teacher year.

24:56

If I'm on the outside the school system only knows.

24:59

Like I ask you to do things. Sometimes you say

25:01

yes, sometimes you say no. But. I

25:03

don't know what's going on with other people and

25:05

how are you saying yes We noted I'm I'm

25:07

in other words, I can't estimate what's your threshold,

25:09

what's your workloads of you change that. I don't

25:11

notice that I'm just like a sometimes liase do

25:13

things you say yes, sometimes you say know. Your.

25:15

I don't necessarily notice that you subtly

25:18

kept at worthless small know. I have

25:20

a bunch of practical things you could

25:22

do as well. A quote I was

25:24

having a deceiver: the people transparent workloads.

25:27

Here's. A shared documents. Here's. What I'm

25:29

working on now. You're. Secure Things I've agreed

25:32

to and when someone says hey, can you

25:34

do this is a yeah, Just go. Added.

25:37

To my work documents and just make sure that I

25:39

have the information I need. And now they have to

25:41

confront. Oh, this is what you know like

25:43

teachers actually working on a here's a three things is

25:45

working on now and they're seven things he's waiting to

25:48

work on and on. Putting this is number is. That

25:50

it's a reality check for them of oh and

25:52

you have a lot going on is gonna be

25:55

a while till you get to this and is

25:57

not you been lazy is not procrastination. I can

25:59

see what you're working. Actually, as. The.

26:01

Something just been transparent about your

26:03

workloads. Enables. You to actually be

26:05

a lot more sane about his. Well, We

26:07

have a lot more slow productivity to talk

26:09

about. Center: thank you so much for your

26:12

questions. Will see at the same Cisco tour

26:14

stop of the everything towards our eleven store

26:16

and nicotine this will be there for that

26:19

stop. We've been really enjoying the Source or

26:21

First Freeze Horse and Twenty sixteen through and

26:23

say oh it's in tenth anniversary of our

26:25

book Everything that remains marino to a cabin

26:28

in the middle of nowhere member who's very

26:30

deep work sort of thing to do Simonides

26:32

as the that to or did you come

26:34

to D C i remember yeah was and

26:37

prose. I think I introduced you guys

26:39

outta Iraq And and so this

26:41

is the tenth anniversary June seventh

26:43

or stops all throughout California, L

26:45

A, San Diego, Orange County, Fresno,

26:47

etc etc. You can get tickets

26:49

they're free bf the register at

26:51

the minimalists.com/tour We'd love to see

26:53

you there before we get back

26:55

to our callers. Malibu. Bam Over

26:57

time as it's you know what

26:59

time. It is. It's time for the lightning round

27:02

where we answer your questions from tic toc. Yes,

27:04

indeed. You can follow the minimalist on

27:06

Sick Talk, Instagram, Facebook, X, and threads.

27:08

We're at above minimum on all of

27:10

those platforms else cow. Usually during the

27:13

line or all we do, we try

27:15

to answer people's question for the short

27:17

terrible less than one hundred and forty

27:19

character response opponents minimal maxims Spinoff of

27:22

an hour doing today, so don't worry

27:24

are today I wanted to do something

27:26

different because we have town Newport's year

27:28

and so. Instead of

27:31

answering a social media question like we

27:33

typically word and giving them a

27:35

treatable answer would be put in the

27:37

show notes it's will send to

27:39

your inbox every Monday for free at

27:42

the Minimalists.email we are spell normal maxims

27:44

over at minimum maxims.com so you

27:46

can copy and share those to the

27:48

answers if you'd like. Well we

27:50

have a question today from Daves about

27:53

social media. You. Guys post a

27:55

lot of content on social media. Would

27:57

it make sense for the minimalist to

27:59

minimize. Social media. Mccallum.

28:01

Give you some context here. Last year. Was.

28:04

Our most successful year on social media

28:07

that ago. Lot of that to Professor

28:09

Sean when Jessica left the Team Social

28:11

Justice see you see, it had a

28:13

ten inches. I want to become a

28:15

full time mom and I wonder what

28:17

to do the social media Santa One

28:20

a worker a full time jobs and

28:22

so Sean took over her duties and

28:24

ironically we we remove like seventy eighty

28:26

percent of a self we were doing

28:28

on social media. But it was our

28:30

most quote unquote successful year measured in

28:33

terms of what is exactly. Are

28:35

so measured In terms of while

28:37

we reached over four million followers

28:39

on the social media across all

28:41

platforms, that was from up from

28:43

like two point nine just to

28:45

a year. Previous to that, we

28:47

had over two hundred million views

28:49

on social media across all platforms

28:51

and half a billion impressions like

28:54

this is. More reach

28:56

then both of our Netflix

28:58

films combined over a multiple

29:00

year period rates, and so

29:02

that's one way to measure

29:04

it. However, towel as the

29:06

author of Digital Minimalism, Can.

29:08

You please state your case on why

29:10

you think the minimum would benefit from

29:13

leaving social media all to guess? So

29:15

what's happening on the social channels? Because

29:17

as someone who doesn't use social media,

29:19

I'll admit I don't have a good

29:21

understanding of the. Social. Media footprint

29:23

of the Minimalists say? what? What I

29:25

see if I'm on Tic Toc versus

29:27

Twitter and Instagram is Eclipse. Yeah, there

29:30

are risks. They're all relative. As you

29:32

know, from every day we post a

29:34

new video from the podcast. Yes, And

29:36

so it's usually a sixty to ninety

29:38

second clip. Many of them get shared

29:40

really broadly and get millions and millions

29:42

of views sooner. Hundreds of thousands, and

29:45

so every day there's a new clip.

29:47

Now is it's when you say we the

29:49

sun. While. It's Benny making

29:51

the tic toc videos right on

29:54

transcribing them as if that is

29:56

all the whole team making selections

29:58

from the podcast. Okay,

30:00

you know what we're gonna wear. Tweets

30:02

out seven videos as week from the

30:04

most recent podcast episode. had to do.

30:07

You are Tj ever have to go

30:09

on and interact with people on these

30:11

channels as well or is this more

30:13

of a content? Plus, we don't interact

30:15

with them directly typically I'm although we

30:17

do and interact with him indirectly. Shown

30:19

will send us any questions or are

30:21

things we have of the sounds gotten

30:23

really good. it's responding to them and

30:25

one from we had hired someone to

30:27

respond to comments and things like that.

30:29

So. That suffer from our personal

30:31

social media which is we use as

30:33

a more personal vehicle. Yes, But yeah

30:36

this is more. Yeah,

30:38

I guess where you to said content distribution

30:40

even. I hate that word. Count as a

30:42

here's my digital minimalist response to this. Ah,

30:45

I don't mind it. So.

30:47

Is it in digital minimalism? Made him

30:49

and he sosa talk as out of

30:51

so sad I do it. Only thing

30:53

I like Riverside Dollars is set up

30:55

but we're talking about the assists. so

30:57

minimalist social media channels which you don't

30:59

thoughts and you don't touch so this

31:02

isn't scenes in your lies saunas. The

31:04

one who's upset about this. Ah,

31:07

taxes I have or if we're here

31:09

besides, we hear what you hate about

31:11

it and it's destroying my literal So

31:13

I don't believe in souls I used

31:15

to but I don't have one anymore.

31:17

Because of the social media what would a

31:19

physicist the seen what people say this or

31:21

seen the other stuff that's on there was

31:23

destroying yourself. Yeah it's it's. see any other

31:25

stuff because there's no way to avoid that.

31:28

There are and some platforms. And

31:30

they're on some platforms. I can schedule things

31:32

out a week in advance and then not

31:34

touch it, but I can do that on every

31:36

platform sign and staged. Every single

31:39

day. And. Add some. it's

31:41

impossible to avoid. It

31:44

or something. and it's. Awesome

31:46

awful order. Or.

31:48

When is not awful. That's even worse because

31:50

in such as yeah well I guess it's

31:53

I'm going to use a second give you

31:55

to answer. So the answer that I don't

31:57

mind it is from the digital mentalist perspectives

31:59

of. He's a technology getting the way

32:01

of the things that you value. So for was

32:03

a the host of the minimalist oh say does

32:05

this is dinner Clinton out to an audience who

32:08

cares about us. It's.

32:10

Not something has taken a big time. You're

32:12

basically no time out of your day actually

32:14

right. And as a lot of businesses who

32:16

do this who I put our i'm thinking

32:19

like Ryan Holiday with his stoic quotes on

32:21

twitter or something like this is putting stuff

32:23

outs. but it's not me being on there

32:25

are here's the are the argument against. Think

32:27

about your audience. So.

32:30

If they really like you, And.

32:32

The social media they're going to go on.

32:34

Social media has a real you put no

32:36

good stuff have signed experience. Of on

32:39

here to see a great minimalist maxim

32:41

which actually does uplift meats and next

32:43

to it. Is. Just you know,

32:45

garbage fires. And then I did. I look

32:47

up twenty minutes later and I'm in friendly

32:50

fire. Like a whole thing has has taken

32:52

over. So there there there's a maybe an

32:54

ethical argument. think about your audience. Of

32:56

for them to engage your point of into

32:58

it. But now let me contradict myself. You

33:01

might see yeah but we're finding new audience

33:03

that way and it wants their pulled into

33:05

our world. things get better so it so

33:07

does the complicated. So in general, I'm not

33:09

completely against businesses. Putting. Alfonsin

33:11

on social media where it gets to people's when

33:13

you have to interact on. It once. You

33:15

have to be in the world and see the

33:17

stuff. It. So badly rubber

33:19

Are we encouraging the interaction? Then

33:22

yeah. in are we adding an

33:24

Mit? Here's here's a thought. I

33:26

have. Are. We

33:28

seeing people's. Desire

33:31

and need for purpose and meaning

33:33

or we simply seeding the algorithm

33:35

is see it could be a

33:37

was. right? I mean it could

33:39

be your your content. Is. Helping people

33:42

towards that goal. But. The social

33:44

media experience that surrounds it has. Pushed.

33:46

Him away from it. While.

33:48

The could be a loss. Okay,

33:51

For me. I.

33:54

Enjoy being on social media a little

33:56

bit. In. The sense that I

33:59

like discovering idea. And I

34:01

like sharing ideas. The.

34:03

Psychological overhead feels really high

34:06

for me because like Professor

34:08

saw and when I go

34:10

on their. Garbage

34:13

dumps. Third, just. It's. Into

34:15

my soul and I. Almost. Always felt

34:17

like I regret it. It's like enjoying a

34:19

delicious meal that you kind of that know

34:21

you probably shouldn't be eating and it feels

34:23

great when you're having it's and then afterwards

34:25

you just kind of bloating the like I

34:28

may I gotta do better next types social

34:30

media feels like that for me but. I'm.

34:32

Not entirely convinced. That.

34:35

I can have impact. I can be a force

34:38

for good in the way that I want to

34:40

be, or I can treat value if I ignore

34:42

that world because it seems like this is the

34:44

world we live in Now where if you want

34:46

to do good, you want to make an impact,

34:48

you need to be on their. Bulletin.

34:51

What I like that what you are doing. So.

34:53

I'm I'm a big internet booster. And.

34:55

I'm very suspicious a social media. I

34:58

don't like those two been translated Id.

35:00

The Internet is a fantastic saying. where

35:02

it's a common set of protocols that

35:04

anyone can use to talk to anyone

35:06

else. Everyone is equal. In social

35:08

media platforms come along as a we want to build

35:10

our own private versus of the internet where you just

35:13

interact to us and we control it and we can

35:15

monetize all of your eyeballs. The. Stuff

35:17

you're doing with the podcast. This

35:20

is old school internet. So. You're

35:22

using the internet to reach

35:24

people. And not just quickly

35:26

to have an hour hour and a half you

35:28

in their ears. Hearing their seen a week after

35:30

week easier and the callers you call in. this

35:32

is like very meaningful to them. That's.

35:34

Impact is leveraging the Internet in the

35:37

world we live in to reach people

35:39

with something that's really high quality and

35:41

can change their lives. And so the

35:43

question is does using the Internet to

35:46

be transform it is. Has to

35:48

involve playing ball with these three or four

35:50

companies. And. I You know it's not

35:52

that it's an obvious answer. But.

35:54

It's you know, it's not obviously yes

35:56

either. So. Let me ask you this been

35:58

if I if I were just. The switch it

36:00

around, say, well, why? then? why don't

36:03

you do the same thing and discover

36:05

your podcast, deep Questions, and and your

36:07

blog and anything else you create on

36:10

social media in a way that we've

36:12

been using it. There could be in

36:14

the Deep Questions brand on Tic Toc

36:17

and Instagram. Why have you gone that

36:19

route as you're like or the mentalist

36:21

that they use? It's. Pretty. Well

36:24

why don't you do that? One of the

36:26

rules I think I serve and internet culture.

36:28

Is so in that it's possible.

36:31

Not. Be using the platform. And.

36:33

I think that's really important because as a lot of

36:35

people who really took the as they're not in your

36:37

situation than on the situation of I have this really

36:40

well known brand was a giant audience we have to

36:42

navigate through. how do we actually read your audience? A

36:44

lot of people they're just on this a lot. They

36:46

don't like it but it just feels like I need

36:48

to be on the services to the have someone who's

36:51

relatively well known. This is why don't use these. Mixed.

36:54

Up Ops and valid. Yeah.

36:56

Else and this is positive deviance theory right?

36:58

that when you wanna when you want it

37:00

seems a there's a conformist culture and the

37:02

problem is the sense a pressure that everyone

37:04

has to do something. To.

37:06

Solution is not the change, everybody's mind. The

37:08

solution is often to have ten percent of

37:10

people agree not to do it and invalidates

37:12

the choice. And this has been coming up

37:15

a lot recently with concerns about young people

37:17

in social media. And. As a lot

37:19

of pushback of your parents are very worried as

37:21

a look I don't want my kid to be

37:23

the only twelve year old who who doesn't have

37:26

a smartphone and so must we ban smartphones in

37:28

the classroom with what can I do and it's

37:30

been a lot of research now Asus would know

37:32

you don't have the band smartphones my class you

37:35

needed like ten percent of the class to agree

37:37

not to use and now you validated that options

37:39

for the people for West as going to be

37:41

really important. And. So I I

37:43

play that role partially for for people out there the

37:46

say i I really don't want to be on here

37:48

and I feel exactly like a kind of is associated

37:50

with my business. I just kind of feel like it's

37:52

going to keep me up to date or whatever. We.

37:55

Need a couple exemplars out there? People's actually things

37:57

are just fine. If you're not, so is it

37:59

is. Housing you harm if

38:01

you feel very uncomfortable about it.

38:03

Nothing really that bad happens.

38:06

For. Most people when they walk away somewhere I

38:08

don't do it. You know and I

38:10

think for us the overhead is an

38:12

actual real overhead light we to hey

38:14

people to create these things and take

38:17

up not your spare time in their

38:19

attentions but could we be working? What's

38:21

the cost of this the opportunity costs

38:23

of letting that go so that we

38:25

can use that time to do fewer

38:27

thing what would you think your audience

38:29

would be in the counterfactual were you

38:31

know last time us here in two

38:33

thousand I do You must say I

38:35

convince you and you start or social

38:38

outreach. To do you think your audience

38:40

would be. Once. The

38:42

gross you had under oath as you

38:44

take away social media own to gather

38:46

our podcast as listen to by roughly

38:48

the same number of people is still

38:50

predominantly audio podcast sense than echo a

38:53

calls into question. Do we need a

38:55

video version of the podcast? Yeah, Can

38:57

we simplify That is all? Can we

38:59

do fewer thing deaths right with As

39:01

And that's a tricky question like I

39:03

do video now on the podcast because

39:05

I have this ruff sense. That

39:08

video is probably going to be the future just as

39:10

people like to see other humans. And

39:12

and I don't think it's gonna be. I mean I hope it's

39:14

not going to be in knocking on the what years I hope

39:16

is not going to be. You tube going

39:18

on to the teacher that this is the

39:20

way we encounter video. I think that ecosystems

39:22

gonna get more complicated. I think people want

39:24

to see other people. Facing. Videos important

39:26

but the others liquid close to them. Your

39:29

podcast changes people's lives up as what I

39:31

love about podcast is that first of all

39:33

their own. Independent. You.

39:35

Have a server somewhere. This podcast hosted

39:37

on anyone who wants and subscribe to

39:39

your Rss feed with whatever player they

39:41

want and they can listen to this

39:43

podcasts. They grew by word of mouth.

39:45

The If The Main Way podcast grows.

39:47

People see, gotta listen to the Show

39:49

You Godlessness episode. I think it's like

39:51

the best of what the Internet offers

39:53

or democratic independent media that reaches people.

39:55

You high quality word of mouth cure

39:57

a sense. Is

40:00

now. The social my bring more

40:02

people into that. Never. But this

40:04

is I'm for. This is the saying

40:06

that I think his really people here

40:08

you every week again and again. That's

40:10

what gets them that relationship with you

40:12

and the ideas that mean six months

40:14

later year later they start making real

40:16

changes in a way that no to

40:19

talks ever going to really push him

40:21

or he can we talk about that

40:23

stuff For the average person who's listening

40:25

to this doesn't have a brand distributes

40:27

your clips from the podcast. What is

40:29

the case that we would state for

40:31

them that. It. Might make sense

40:33

that might be beneficial to walk away

40:35

from social there. So what you want

40:37

to do there is work backwards from

40:39

the proverbial empty closet. So

40:42

instead of looking at the social media you

40:44

use and say well which of these two

40:46

a maybe not need or maybe I should

40:48

take a break from some of these I

40:50

suggest people take thirty days and temporarily stuff

40:52

away from everything. Rights. As I mean

40:55

by empty closets. Don't go into your crowded

40:57

closet and just start trying to organize it.

40:59

Do the Mary condo thing. Going into this

41:01

whole thing out. Spent. Thirty

41:03

Days not using these services

41:05

and instead very actively seeking

41:08

to reflection and experimentation. What

41:10

you like. Like. What I want to do

41:12

only go get books in the library, learn how

41:15

to knit, or get back involved in trail run.

41:17

Like, go out there and actually reflect and explore

41:19

and then after thirty days are over, say okay,

41:21

I'm only going to add back into my closet

41:23

hear things that are now same are going to

41:25

make a huge difference in my life. Better earn

41:27

their way back into your life. Which.

41:29

Is the opposite. Most people engage with these tools

41:31

which is. oh I heard about this thing. Maybe

41:33

I would get some value out of it. Let

41:36

me try it out and then they bring it

41:38

into their lungs. And. Their it sets

41:40

for the next four years, eating up an hour

41:42

to have their to their time every day. It's

41:44

to start from scratch. Again, it's okay. what earns

41:46

it's way back in some maybe six o'clock.earnest way

41:48

back in. Ah, but you know it's a sport.

41:51

Facebook. Groups is where I organize

41:53

my trail running group or something. It's

41:55

a you get pretty clear about what's

41:58

really adding value then. If. Know

42:00

why you're adding one of these services back in

42:02

your life. You can put rolls around it. So.

42:05

Okay, the reason why Facebook earned his way

42:07

back into my life As Facebook groups. Or.

42:10

Then why do I need my news feed? Know

42:12

Why don't you to see my uncle's

42:14

conspiracy theories about? you know Joe Biden?

42:16

Why don't I now just use a

42:18

a plugin as justice become a computer,

42:20

new seat, eradicate or all. He sees

42:22

the Facebook proof Know I know why

42:24

I'm using this. I can set

42:26

of rules written. get that value without the

42:29

harm. see go through that process and it

42:31

is a a digital Declan or an uncle.

42:33

It a detox to declutter your d cluttering

42:35

your digital life, leaving and only watch as

42:37

I thought it would say. sparks joy The

42:39

stuff that really matters The I Could rules

42:41

around. It's most people's they go through that

42:44

are going to have a drastically reduce set

42:46

of apps on their phones as. Can.

42:48

Be different for different people. most people probably won't

42:50

end up with. No

42:52

social media. Or what remains

42:54

is gonna be a lot less and are going to

42:56

have these rules about it. Doesn't need to be a

42:58

my phone. when do I use it's I protect with

43:00

plugins Like such a completely different engagement with these tools.

43:03

To. Things out one we might have the

43:05

same uncle some. Facebook

43:08

assigns one of them to. Assess

43:11

as but to add this is a tone

43:14

that underlies much of your writing over the

43:16

years, and that is this. Fearless.

43:19

willingness to experiment, As.

43:22

A way of discovering what works and

43:24

so much of what we do on

43:26

social media carries a lot of weight.

43:28

Where we felt like all with Ice

43:30

shut down Twitter for a while or

43:32

get off you to for a while

43:34

I might die, I might fade away

43:36

into permanent irrelevance death and you're saying

43:39

you got some room here to try

43:41

something and it not work. You.

43:43

Suffer a little bit a loss and you can

43:45

live without an indoor that and come back stronger

43:47

with the wisdom from that and one thing people

43:49

often discover when they do this. So I ran

43:52

an experiment. back to that book. A fourteen hundred

43:54

people. Went. Through this process and

43:56

one the things a lot of them

43:58

discovered is when you're temporarily. Away from

44:00

that digital relevance. You. Start

44:02

seeking in person relevance. The

44:05

relevance to real human beings that you know and

44:07

around you. And. Then he

44:09

rediscover. Oh, this is what

44:11

I really was missing. Oh the digital.

44:14

It. Was like eating a candy bar when

44:16

you're hungry. it sign that satisfies the

44:18

craving but it's not what she really

44:20

need. We rediscover odors digital interactions was

44:22

a simulate from of what I really

44:24

craved which is what all humans crave

44:26

which is to serve be connected other

44:28

people's and when you get connected to

44:31

real people. Who. Live nearby you and

44:33

you can see them and you're going there.

44:35

and you're helping them out. And you're involved

44:37

in things with stamps. You're sacrificing nontrivial time

44:40

and attention on their behalf. The.

44:42

Other stuff is it starts tasting like ass in

44:44

your mouth a little bit. You like you discover

44:46

real food he said she does a kind of

44:48

weird you know that happens to a lot of.

44:51

Is. That you realize. I. Wanna be

44:53

relevant? but this was a simulation of rail of

44:55

and by the way simulation that a lot of

44:57

people may a lot of money off of. When

45:01

I look at this entire landscape, I

45:03

think the counter argument to this is

45:05

I've actually gotten from and as value

45:07

from a personally take all the minimalist

45:09

stuff out of this. but ah, I

45:11

think I've met most of the people

45:14

in this room either directly or indirectly

45:16

because of social media. Not you obviously

45:18

all actually that's not true. Someone shared

45:20

something from your blog it's back and

45:22

twenty eleven in one that I followed

45:24

on Twitter as a tie us and

45:26

that's how I originally connected with you

45:28

and and we met at a conference

45:31

back. Then and and and

45:33

so even. Tell. Newport.

45:35

I've met him at least indirectly

45:37

through social media. I've met Professor

45:39

Sean directly through Twitter. I've met

45:41

a lot of close friends and

45:44

loved ones lovers even because of

45:46

social media rights. and so. It's

45:49

not all bad as that. What we're saying

45:51

here, I know that's not what you're suggesting.

45:54

It seems to me what you're suggesting is

45:56

that the benefits of not being on its

45:58

are better for you. Then the benefits

46:00

my be from being on it. And

46:03

also when you realize why are using a tool,

46:05

it opens up other options. Of.

46:07

You say? Maybe you go through this inventory in

46:10

and say here's what I really care about. And.

46:12

What these tools are serving his meeting

46:14

interesting people might not otherwise meet. Were.

46:16

Like okay, that's my goal. Like what are all

46:18

the different ways I can use the internet? To.

46:21

Be exposed an interesting people and meet

46:23

interesting people. That might really

46:25

actually seems how you use those tools you

46:27

like will be seven network for one am

46:29

under mean he wanted to focus on i

46:32

can use that are am planning meeting people

46:34

on here but some of my meeting people

46:36

on here well it's really these corners of

46:38

Twitter Thought what we get rid of on

46:40

follow all these other things are all I'm

46:42

seen as these corners of Twitter. I meet

46:44

people or maybe realize actually there's an even

46:47

better way to meet interesting people. minutes on

46:49

a micro, some social media site or isn't

46:51

a newsletter community or it's in a Petri

46:53

on community for a podcast. Once. I know

46:55

what I'm looking for. His

46:57

then you think it really specific about how you

46:59

engage in the tools and you don't end up

47:01

with is very real benefit. Justifying

47:03

for some people hours every day you

47:05

know yeley that people see so on

47:07

the on the back of an app

47:09

we're doing we're dances been convinced that

47:11

they're going to be a superstar. Clarity

47:14

really helps here. I'm imagining

47:17

someone who. Was concept

47:19

of going out is tantamount to

47:21

going to the barn getting drunk.

47:24

You can hear a person like that say i hate going

47:26

out and you might think. They. Really hate going

47:28

out but what they really mean is I

47:30

don't like going to the bar to get

47:32

trunk but if you introduce that person so

47:34

a broader concept of what it means to

47:36

go out. you can hang out with the

47:38

with the coffee shop, you could take a

47:40

walk at the park, you can go to

47:42

the gym then it they might rediscovered this

47:44

law for engaging the world in an analysis

47:46

way. When you make that distinction between being

47:48

online and being on social media, I think

47:50

that's a simple but powerful distinction because for

47:52

many of us being online is being on

47:54

social media because we don't typically don't google

47:56

anymore research we find. New articles and new

47:59

podcast and we. We read the news

48:01

by going on our favorite social media sites.

48:03

I love to hear you read for a

48:05

moment about. What? It can

48:07

mean to be online in a construct

48:09

of and and recreation away without limiting

48:11

that to social media wiccan that look

48:13

like it's own. Some of my favorite

48:16

people on mine are the readers of

48:18

my newsletter and blog. With. A

48:20

Been reading this for a long time. It's

48:22

not a large group of people, we kind

48:24

of know each other and the send comments

48:26

back and forth and the same sort of

48:29

characters come off. Know, email me and you

48:31

learn about a lot of interesting things. I

48:33

have this address for example, called Interesting Account

48:35

for.com or tell my readers and listeners it

48:37

or something as interesting like an article or

48:40

a book you think I might like. Email.

48:42

It to me. As pre I get so

48:45

many cool I guess I'm Nicole leads that

48:47

way. Podcast: A Seeker: Fantastic because it's independent.

48:49

By. Independently produced and you have communities

48:52

to go around podcast guessing? that's that's

48:54

more more people are engaging in that

48:56

up. Any sort of micro independent media

48:58

production is something that I'm a fan

49:00

of. Were seen this with the written

49:02

word now, so Sub Stock has made

49:05

it easier for writers who really have

49:07

talent to sort of make a living

49:09

are building a community around the email

49:11

newsletter. The comments on those

49:13

form their own community. People really know

49:16

I'm so I wrote this a New

49:18

Yorker piece last summer about this right

49:20

about the alternatives to Twitter and trends.

49:23

My talked about the the user generated

49:25

independent web and when the examples I

49:27

gave in that article was a forum.

49:30

For. Washington Nationals install. As

49:33

this forum that I will haunt in and I wrote

49:35

about in the article on a subject. it's a form,

49:37

It's it's. Bulletin. Board Post This

49:39

is like Nineteen Ninety Six Technologies and they'll

49:41

know each other and they watch the games

49:44

together wherever they are and eight the post

49:46

law if as the game unfolds. But as

49:48

I was working on these boards like writing

49:50

this article, they would say oh, he was

49:53

your baby born or how was your trip

49:55

the the Arizona and they all kind of

49:57

know each other and they're having this discussion.

50:00

It's like a sports bar where everyone there

50:02

is interesting and likes your own the same

50:04

team that you likes. Basically that's cool use

50:06

of the internet abuse or people and in

50:08

that article by contrast of this is a

50:10

lot to this website talknaps.com Let's compare that

50:12

to Twitter and which I went back and

50:14

forth about. Like what experiences as like Indians

50:16

talks that are com is everything we hope

50:18

to get out of the internet. A way

50:20

to connect the people who share interests who

50:22

I would not be able to find enough

50:24

of them. In. My same town

50:26

to internet brings people together and Twitter

50:28

is the worst of it as the

50:30

algorithmic manipulations needed to actually make that

50:32

global conversation platform be functional is just

50:34

all rank or and saw gonna make

50:36

you feel bad. So I love the

50:38

Indie wet. Independent, user

50:40

generated. Would you say to the

50:42

cynic who says but subs stack

50:45

and you tube those arm. Still,

50:47

Social media platforms, right? Well,

50:49

so it isn't. It depends.

50:52

So. I mean Sub Stack. Did I think they

50:54

want to do that? They're. Not

50:56

yet but they do wanna do that. I mean

50:59

I would prefer people just do like what I

51:01

did and just I set up your own email

51:03

provider but it's at the cost is too much

51:05

in terms of of money and in terms of

51:07

complexity so it's on at like You Tube is

51:10

also. Youtube.

51:12

Is tricky What? I had a sink a long

51:14

time before we decided. The posts video. And

51:16

because I talked to my my listeners about

51:18

is a book is two ways to use

51:20

you tube that I seek a productive and

51:22

there's a way to use you tube that

51:24

is really non productive. It productive ways are

51:26

as a a a cable service and library.

51:29

Bigger. You see you tubes. I need to

51:31

learn how to change the oil in a

51:33

Honda Odyssey Spring. I can search for that

51:35

know be a video of it and I'll

51:37

get our thoughts. As a cable channel I

51:39

think a sign like I like the minimalist

51:41

I know when they post their videos it

51:43

comes out on. These days I watch and

51:45

all my smart tv it's it's It's like

51:47

a cable channels as a source more content

51:49

I think desperate to the unproductive way is

51:51

as a algorithm. On board. To

51:54

start washing over like recommendations and people.

51:56

Rabbit hole for hours and would you

51:58

too can work well. If.

52:01

You have a plugin. The. Blocks the

52:03

auto recommendations. Now. It's like a

52:05

really cool cable service and labor. You have to

52:07

look up everything you want to watch. You're looking

52:09

up specific things you're only going to. things really

52:11

likes. Yeah, what did those recommendation bars because? the

52:13

whole different thing. And. Now it's

52:15

who. Look at this video. The that

52:18

video in the this video and pretty

52:20

soon it's a reaction to a Minecraft

52:22

video where they're trying to recreate a

52:24

Mr. Beast experiments. Wow, you know Mark

52:27

for Over Rockets Out of my to

52:29

just becomes this weird algorithmic. a Tinson

52:31

engineered whatever. So it it gets tricky

52:33

see a problem. Ethical. Talk about this

52:35

later on are more about last segment

52:38

of a sassy Like your problem is

52:40

more about the algorithm than anything else.

52:42

Yes, yeah well or touch more on.

52:44

that's gonna. Suck! He adds Sigma com

52:46

enough. I'm going to hold their for the

52:48

private pods request for a virgin Started by

52:51

the way our we have a profusion of

52:53

color questions to answer over on the private

52:55

podcast. Were first real quick force right here.

52:58

Right now, here's one thing. It's going on

53:00

in the life of the minimalist. You can

53:02

hire the minimalist to speak. It's

53:04

true or we speak for free on

53:07

the podcast. Us to check that out

53:09

as well, but us you can ours

53:11

is figure company your college organization. the

53:14

minimalist of spoken a bunch of places

53:16

Harvard, Apple, Google, all state, South by

53:18

Southwest never Georgetown yes but or maybe

53:21

someday of expense. And

53:24

to hundreds of other organization schools

53:26

and conferences and we see got

53:28

a bunch different topics from simple

53:30

loving and decluttering. The Digital Clutter

53:32

Workplace Clutter. Workplace minimalism, Sustainable Living.

53:35

Personal relationships and living a meaningful

53:37

life. If you're interested in higher

53:39

in the minimalist to speak at

53:41

your organization or of than just

53:43

us, on over to the minimalists.com/speaking

53:45

for more information. while you're there,

53:47

you can also watch our speaking

53:49

it's demo trailer you check that

53:51

out, Malibu Someone else you got

53:53

for us is a minimalist inside

53:55

from one of our listeners. Hi.

54:00

I'm one of your minimalist of faith.

54:03

And I would like to share an

54:05

experience I had with letting though when

54:07

I like though as with the craft

54:10

and then reset my husband and I

54:12

am so missing the baby any time

54:14

that across don't really we only use

54:17

it once or twice a year. They

54:19

no longer carry some of our primary

54:21

she things to say which was a

54:24

benefits who are businessmen are set. Women:

54:27

They recently changed their membership

54:29

policies which made it so

54:31

whoever goes on uses your

54:33

car and have to only

54:36

use one from as payment.

54:39

So if my sister was there

54:41

and I with presence as made

54:43

me being the members she could

54:45

not run her credit card. I

54:47

didn't ask around the i know

54:50

that I run once or twice

54:52

a year more a simple a

54:54

damn that I could get a

54:56

common grocery store. So that experience

54:58

has taught me that I can

55:00

even let go of a member

55:03

said the savings and gas than

55:05

those few dollars a day com

55:07

compounded burwell comfort on. More

55:09

cost effective without causing me so much

55:11

mental anguish. For those who are looking

55:14

at remember said from Cosco in the

55:16

only way know that are other made

55:18

a lot and why use the back

55:21

half that we can refer be so

55:23

much? Any with the businesses can do

55:25

so. For those Martin business on earth

55:28

you don't have to be in the

55:30

restaurant business. There are other resources out

55:32

there that can help you. And.

55:35

Then you can be free of the cost

55:37

us Apple's. Not only that, the

55:39

Dp means higher. Premium Back I

55:41

can have a parade. It but.

55:45

I am so happy to say

55:47

I finally let Cosco. Or

55:51

job will see you on Petri On

55:54

for the see to our maximal edition

55:56

of episode Four Hundred and Thirty Five

55:58

with child Newport Sexy Entire. The

56:00

Zone over there when a

56:02

lot of fun, scale new

56:04

for It's weird that a

56:06

bunch more questions like how

56:08

can I reshape the values

56:10

of my workplace using minimalist

56:12

principles? how to identify, avoid

56:14

and let go of information

56:16

clutter? How can I organize

56:18

my home in a way

56:20

that homes the chaos in

56:22

my life? was a million

56:24

more questions over on the

56:27

minimalist private podcast visits: patreon.com/done

56:29

Minimalist or Click. The link found

56:31

in the description to subscribing to your

56:33

person lengths to our weekly Max More

56:35

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56:37

you also gain access to all of

56:40

our podcast archives on way back to

56:42

episode Zero Zero One by the way,

56:44

Pager On is now offering free trial

56:46

Sophie Like this test drive or private

56:49

podcast you can join for seven days

56:51

for free. Big thanks to Tell New

56:53

More for joining us today. You can't

56:55

follow him on social media Spigot! Check

56:57

out his new book is called Slow

57:00

Productivity. Will put a link to

57:02

that in the show Notes for

57:04

find: his podcast called The Questions

57:06

and his website. His blog Cow

57:09

newport.com links all that will be

57:11

at them analysts.com/podcast That is our

57:13

a minimal episode for today. If

57:16

you leave here with just one

57:18

message. Was business. Most

57:21

people. Will.

57:29

Peace Ever see?

57:33

Things that's. Ever

57:36

little see. The thing

57:38

that. Ever

57:40

let us see him as

57:43

his seat. He agreed says

57:45

it's easy.