0:19

Every little thing you

0:21

think that you need Every

0:24

little thing you think that

0:26

you need Every

0:28

little thing that's just feeding

0:31

your greed Oh, I bet

0:33

that you'll be fine without

0:35

it You're

0:38

listening to The Minimalist Podcast with Joshua

0:40

Fields Milburn and T.K. Coleman Thank

0:42

you, Malabama. Hello, everybody.

0:45

Coming up today on this free

0:47

public minimal episode, a caller has

0:49

a question about what nourishing

0:52

activities she can fill her empty

0:54

life with after decluttering.

0:56

We're going to talk

0:58

about some quiet spaces, some things

1:00

that T.K. and I do with

1:02

our downtime. But another listener has

1:04

a question about her struggles with

1:06

wanting high-end products, even though she's

1:09

a minimalist. Then we've got our lightning

1:11

round question, a fam's question, and

1:13

a listener tip for you. You can check

1:15

out the full two-hour maximal

1:17

edition of episode 429, where we answer five

1:21

times the questions, and we

1:23

dive deep into several simple

1:25

living segments. That private podcast

1:28

episode is out right now

1:30

at patreon.com/The Minimalists. Your support

1:32

keeps our podcast 100% advertisement

1:36

free because sing along

1:38

at home. Advertisements

1:40

suck. Let's start with our callers. If you

1:42

have a question or a comment for our

1:45

show, we'd love to hear from you. Give us

1:47

a call, 406-219-7839, or email a voice recording to

1:49

podcast at theminimalists.com. Our

1:57

first question today is from Victoria. Hi,

2:00

my name is Victoria. I'm

2:02

calling from Washington, DC, and

2:04

I'm a Patreon subscriber. I

2:07

love your books, love your documentaries,

2:09

love your podcasts, and

2:12

I listen to everything. So

2:14

my question is, what do you fill

2:16

your time with? I

2:18

know, Josh, that you don't have home

2:21

internet and or TV. So

2:27

I know you mentioned you read a lot, you

2:29

write every day, you

2:31

record the podcast, you spend a lot

2:33

of time outdoors. But

2:35

how do you fill your

2:38

downtime when you are not using

2:42

home internet or, you

2:45

know, shopping or spending money? So

2:47

my question is, what do you do with

2:49

all of those empty hours that you find

2:51

yourself with? Thanks. TK,

2:53

this is such an important question,

2:56

but it's probably not important for the reasons you

2:58

might think it is important. I

3:00

can answer it practically. It is

3:02

true that in my own personal space,

3:04

I don't have home internet or a

3:06

TV. Now, my wife has home

3:09

internet and a TV in the

3:11

shared space that we have. But in

3:13

my own space, I find those things to

3:15

be a bit of a distraction for

3:18

me. I don't think

3:20

they're evil or bad. The reason I think

3:22

this is an important question, though, is

3:25

because it presupposes

3:28

that one should fill their

3:30

what? Downtime or free time

3:33

with activities, with more.

3:37

And man, that resonates

3:39

with me so deeply and

3:41

it troubles me so deeply

3:43

because I feel exactly the

3:45

way Victoria feels. What

3:48

should I do with this free time? I'd like

3:50

to start with an analogy. I've got so much

3:52

to say about this, so let's go back and

3:54

forth here. But the analogy

3:56

is about an empty room. When

3:59

you move into a new house. We feel compelled

4:01

to fill an empty room

4:03

with stuff. Now, nothing wrong

4:05

with that. But what

4:07

should I fill this room with? Everyone knows

4:10

that one has to have a couch in

4:12

their living room. You must

4:14

have a coffee table, you must have

4:16

a TV, you must have internet. And

4:18

in your kitchen, your dining room, you

4:20

must have a dining table with six

4:22

chairs. And in your garage, you must

4:25

have a certain number of shelves that

4:27

store your tools and all of the

4:29

quote unquote essentials. We

4:31

must fill the room, we

4:33

must fill the space with

4:36

stuff. And the

4:38

same thing happens to be true with our downtime.

4:41

And do you remember not that long ago,

4:43

TK, when you would stop at

4:45

a red light, you just

4:47

had nothing to do, it was true downtime. But

4:51

now when we stop at a red light, what

4:53

happens? Ah, I

4:55

need to fill this time with screen

4:57

time. I need

4:59

to fill this time with something. And

5:02

that's why this is an important question. Because

5:05

we're constantly filling our lives with more,

5:08

more stuff, more obligations,

5:11

more screen time. We're

5:14

filling our lives in a

5:16

way that is distracting us from

5:18

what is actually meaningful. We're

5:21

getting rid of the quiet life.

5:24

We're getting rid of quiet time. We're

5:26

getting rid of solitude. We're

5:29

doing more. But of course, doing

5:32

hinders being. And

5:35

one thing I had to realize, and it wasn't

5:37

even that long ago, is I

5:40

had to stop doing in

5:42

order to start being. You

5:46

can't do silence. You

5:48

can't do quiet. And

5:52

yet we try to. What

5:55

must I do with this

5:57

quiet time? But that doing often

5:59

interrupts. the being.

6:02

But of course peace arises the moment

6:04

you realize there is nothing, nothing

6:08

that must be done in this

6:10

moment. There are infinite possibilities.

6:12

There's a lot of things I could do

6:15

right now. What

6:18

I've learned is that stillness, when

6:20

I actually embrace stillness, it's

6:22

uncomfortable. But that

6:25

stillness pasteurizes the

6:27

chaos in my mind. You

6:31

know, when you talk about the screens, I

6:34

think about how I just got off

6:37

an airplane and there's a screen in front

6:39

of me the entire time and I had pretty

6:41

limited control over my ability to turn

6:43

it off for at least about the first 20 minutes

6:46

off the plane ride. Several of the

6:48

people around me were trying to turn theirs off and

6:50

it wasn't just me. You just didn't have the power

6:52

to turn it off. My

6:54

suspicion is that someone paid for

6:56

that time and

6:58

they are obligated to let

7:00

whatever the advertisements are play.

7:03

I don't know, but all I know is that I had

7:05

the screen in front of me and I couldn't be without

7:07

it. When I go to pump

7:09

gas, most of the

7:11

time there's a screen that's there playing something

7:14

for me and the speakers are so loud

7:16

that I am definitely going to hear whatever

7:18

is being blasted out at me. Average

7:21

bathroom now, you go into the

7:23

bathroom and as a guy you're standing in

7:25

front of a urinal and like, there you

7:28

go. You got a TV show to watch

7:30

because God forbid that for this 10 to

7:33

20 seconds you be without something

7:35

to look at. Sometimes you know, like

7:38

people have their phones out as they're

7:40

going and it's just, we are so

7:42

inundated with having something to fill up

7:44

our time that it gives

7:46

rise to these questions like, Hey, if

7:49

that were all taken away, what

7:52

would we fill it up with? Because

7:54

we live in a culture that treats

7:56

time as something to be filled up

7:58

space as something to be. build

8:00

up. And history can be a

8:02

great teacher here because we can ask,

8:05

well, what did human beings do for

8:07

the overwhelming majority of history? Because

8:10

this business of having a bunch of screens

8:12

that we can use to stimulate ourselves is

8:15

a pretty recent phenomenon. Most

8:18

people didn't have that. What did they do? Well, they

8:21

looked each other in the eyes. They

8:24

spoke to each other and listened to each other.

8:27

They sat alone with themselves and they paid

8:29

attention to what came up for them. They

8:32

engaged in meaningful productive work,

8:35

not necessarily because they got paid for it,

8:37

although that was a thing too, but

8:40

also because they enjoyed working with

8:42

their hands or building things for

8:44

other people. Obbies were

8:47

a big thing and being an amateur

8:49

was respected. At that time, it was

8:51

true to its etymological roots. It meant

8:53

to love. It didn't mean to be

8:55

a hack, to be a second rate

8:57

person who has not figured out a

8:59

way to do the really important thing,

9:01

which is to monetize it. And so

9:04

there are a lot of things that we can do at that

9:06

time, but I think the

9:08

notion of filling it up, the

9:10

notion of it being full as

9:12

some kind of default is

9:15

the sort of assumption that we want to challenge.

9:17

One of the themes we talk about a lot

9:19

on this show is that as

9:22

long as you're clinging to the familiar, you

9:24

make yourself unavailable to the possibility of

9:26

something new. And when we

9:29

cling to familiar things like, well, I

9:31

keep the TV on and I keep

9:33

the cell phone on because if I

9:35

ever get bored, then I know that I

9:37

got something to do. Well, there might

9:40

be all sorts of amazing possibilities and

9:42

creative ideas and interesting relationships that are knocking

9:44

at your door, but you can't hear

9:46

them because of the noise. And if

9:48

you're willing to take the risk of saying,

9:50

you know what? I

9:53

can survive a little bit by

9:55

not having some instant gratification by

9:58

way of checking phone notification. and

10:00

watching TV programs, why

10:02

don't I flirt with the silence,

10:04

flirt with the stillness, flirt with

10:06

the space, flirt with the

10:08

free time to see if

10:10

there's something here worth dating,

10:13

worth engaging at a deeper

10:15

level, and worth becoming

10:17

one with in a way that

10:19

transcends life as I've known it. I

10:22

love that you're talking about a sort

10:24

of reframing there, flirting with the quiet

10:26

time. Maybe it's not downtime

10:28

that needs to be filled, maybe

10:30

it's already filled with silence,

10:33

maybe it's already filled with peace,

10:36

maybe it's already filled

10:39

with tranquility. Doesn't mean

10:41

that it's boredom, in fact, you can reframe

10:43

that as the thing we're so afraid of.

10:46

We're afraid of being bored. We

10:49

stop at the red light and we reach for

10:52

the phone because what's going

10:54

on out there, as

10:56

opposed to what's going on in

10:58

here, in my heart, in my mind.

11:00

And yes, that is a

11:03

bit uncomfortable, especially at first because

11:05

we're so accustomed to what? Seeking

11:08

pleasure. That pleasure

11:10

seeking becomes a problem because

11:13

as we seek out pleasure,

11:15

we continue to seek out more

11:18

and more and more. We

11:20

up our threshold repeatedly. That's

11:22

the reason that hedonism doesn't work on

11:24

a long enough timeline because

11:26

we get everything we thought we wanted and

11:28

it ceases to be what we want right

11:30

now. And so we discard it and

11:33

we get the next thing. And so

11:35

we seek out what? We

11:37

seek out the things that are

11:39

supposed to make us happy. Well,

11:42

here's a thought for you. How

11:45

many things have you purchased that were going

11:47

to make you happy? Where

11:49

are those things now? How

11:52

many things have you done? Accomplished

11:56

And those accomplishments were going to

11:58

make you happy. But.

12:00

Today. And did it

12:03

last. You. Know

12:05

what does last? Know. The

12:07

stillness, the silence that's underneath

12:09

it all. The

12:12

great friend of mine once told me that. He.

12:14

Speaks only. When.

12:17

Speaking will add more

12:19

value than silence. Minute

12:22

I aspire toward the

12:24

quiet life, I value

12:26

the client. Now. My

12:29

behaviors don't always match that. Is

12:31

true I can give you. Some.

12:34

Examples of things that I do a Victoria

12:36

mentioned a few and I write every day.

12:38

I read every day. I do both those

12:40

things really slowly. by the way. Not

12:43

by. Choice necessarily, but that is

12:45

my regular pace. I'm just. I'm

12:47

a really slow reader. And

12:50

I exercise every day as well. But.

12:53

Those things aren't so much about the doing,

12:55

it's just I feel so compelled to do

12:57

those things that. The doing

12:59

is a byproduct of being compelled

13:01

by them. Where. I go

13:04

wrong. However, Is. When.

13:06

I seek out the things that I

13:08

should be doing. That's why hesitate even

13:11

talk about. yes, I write everyday, exercise

13:13

every day, I read every day. It's

13:15

because it's gonna be easy for someone

13:18

list listen to this to prescription eyes

13:20

that and think oh, You

13:22

know what the right thing to do is get

13:24

rid of my Tv and get rid of my

13:26

Internet. And. Read

13:28

and Write. And. Exercise every

13:30

day, For. Some people that my

13:32

word. For. Other people. They.

13:34

My feel like oh. I've been

13:37

forced to do these things. Remember back

13:39

in school when they forced the book

13:41

on to you. You must read this

13:43

book. You felt far less compelled to

13:45

read it then if you were to

13:47

seek out on your own. The be

13:49

much more compelling if you pick it

13:51

up on the show. Yourself

13:53

and say, well, what is

13:56

this. Is one

13:58

area where I do relate to Victoria. How

14:00

is. Sometimes

14:02

it does help me. To.

14:04

Get a picture, Of. What

14:06

it might look like to live

14:08

a certain kind of life, especially

14:10

something as new to me. So

14:12

when you think about the way

14:14

people learn language, we learn language

14:17

by hearing other people's say specific

14:19

words and sentences in that language.

14:21

And although we might use different

14:23

words or we might articulate different

14:25

thoughts than the people were learning

14:27

from. We. Need specific examples

14:29

to help build our vocabulary? And so it

14:31

is. what other aspects of life? If I'm

14:33

trying to live more simply and my life

14:35

has been filled with all kinds of clutter,

14:37

it can be helpful for me to build

14:39

my vocabulary by asking someone else. like a

14:41

man, what does it look like for you

14:43

when you get rid of your Tv? What

14:45

does a life look like for you when

14:47

you're not on your phone five hours a

14:49

day scrolling? Maybe that's the only life that

14:51

I know, or things that I've asked you

14:53

before like. Are you doing

14:55

with our fast food? Or you do it

14:58

when you get hungry and you live in a world where

15:00

you can pull over it at a drive through. And.

15:02

Cc your hunger just like that.

15:05

When. You start Santa, that would he do well.

15:07

You might have to spend more time when

15:09

props well as pie gets harder, but here's

15:11

a way to make it easier and so

15:13

that kind of prescription stuff can be helpful

15:15

as long as you don't follow it like

15:18

a rule, but you treated as a sort

15:20

of jump start. To. Catalyze your

15:22

own creative thinking around ways that you

15:24

can play the game. For me, that's

15:26

taking walks as playing board games, playing

15:28

card games are engaging in conversation. If

15:30

I ever find myself, I typically don't

15:32

feel boards, but if I ever find

15:34

myself in a type of situation, I

15:36

think of all the people. I

15:39

always say like I was I supposed to

15:41

talk to the more. You know, let

15:43

me call my Aunt. Oh. would be

15:46

glad to hear from me that i haven't

15:48

talked on a long time and check on

15:50

her see how she's doing you know there's

15:52

always something to feel the time up with

15:54

but you get a better feel for what

15:56

those things are when you're not looking at

15:58

time as a problem to solve But

16:00

as the gift of life itself and

16:02

you think about how to engage these

16:05

things with intentionality Based on what you

16:07

value not on what our compulsive society

16:09

says you've got to do in order

16:12

to be normal I

16:14

agree with you that often when we

16:16

see those templates from someone else's life

16:18

it can be instructive As

16:21

long as it doesn't become didactic you should

16:23

do it this way But if

16:25

I see tk likes to go on long walks

16:27

Yeah, I like that that fits into my life

16:29

as soon as I hear board games I check

16:31

out immediately that's not for me, but that's not

16:33

an indictment on your playing of board games I

16:35

just know that's not something That

16:38

I personally enjoy And

16:41

so when you see these different

16:43

recipes It's about adjusting the recipe

16:45

for taste for you as opposed

16:47

to blindly following the recipe like

16:49

oh, yeah I really hate

16:51

the way that black pepper

16:53

tastes But this recipe calls

16:55

for black pepper. So I guess I just put

16:57

black pepper in the recipe No, you don't the

17:00

question that is compelling then is What

17:03

do I say? No, no to from someone

17:05

else's recipe and in fact What

17:08

can I let go of is a much

17:10

more powerful question than what can I

17:13

do? And

17:16

in those moments of boredom or Downtime

17:19

right i'm asking myself.

17:21

What can I let go of here as

17:23

opposed to what should I? Do

17:25

I think there's one other component here that

17:28

I want to touch on before we move on and there

17:30

is a great deal

17:32

of emotion Especially now

17:35

in a world that is

17:37

bombarded with stimuli. There's

17:39

quite a bit of emotion Associated

17:42

with silence and it's quite often

17:44

what we would call negative emotions

17:46

or just unpleasant emotions You know

17:48

when we remove ourselves from the

17:50

world in that way When

17:52

we put our phone in our trunk for

17:55

an hour when we

17:58

disconnect the internet When

18:01

we cease to participate

18:03

in the cultural conversation of

18:05

the moment, there's a

18:07

stillness or a silence there that

18:10

is uncomfortable, and it begins to

18:12

bring up all of these emotions. TK,

18:14

you just released a book called Emotional

18:16

Clutter. People can download

18:19

it for free over at

18:21

theminimalists.com/Emotional Clutter. Professor Schall, I'll put

18:23

a link to that in the show notes as

18:25

well. There's an audiobook version as well, which I

18:27

really enjoyed recording with you. In

18:30

that book, you talk about many

18:33

of these unpleasant or negative emotions

18:35

that arise in these moments of

18:37

change. That's right.

18:40

We often make our

18:42

emotions the enemy. When

18:45

you see an enemy, you defend yourself against

18:47

them or you run in the opposite direction. But

18:50

when you can learn to see your

18:52

feelings as friends, which

18:54

sometimes mean that they convey

18:56

messages that you perhaps don't want to

18:59

hear but that you need to hear,

19:01

or they say things that aren't necessarily

19:03

fun or funny but are very important

19:05

and crucial to your journey, it changes

19:07

the relationship you have to them. One

19:09

of the things we talk about a

19:11

lot in Emotional Clutter is not so

19:13

much getting rid of emotions but reframing

19:16

the experience of emotion altogether so that

19:18

the energy that they produce in your

19:20

life is a congruent energy, a creative energy

19:22

that moves you forward. When

19:25

I think about this, one of the

19:27

negative emotions that often comes up, or I'll

19:29

call it uncomfortable emotions, with silence is awkwardness.

19:32

One great example of this is sort of like the

19:34

TV movie depiction of the first date. You

19:37

got someone that you like and you're sitting across

19:39

each other at a coffee shop or a restaurant

19:42

and you don't have anything to say. You're like, the food's

19:45

good. Yeah, it

19:47

is. Yeah. Yeah,

19:53

this is a nice place, isn't it? You know, we

19:55

all know that scene. We've all seen it before. It's like

19:57

you just want to get up and run out of time.

20:00

out, right? Because you're scared and you wish you

20:02

had a good question and you wish you had

20:04

something interesting to say and oh my gosh, this

20:06

person is going to think I'm crazy. They're never

20:08

going to like me because I don't have words.

20:11

How fragile must

20:13

our world be when everything

20:15

has to be held together, constantly

20:18

possessing words for every thought,

20:20

every feeling, every moment? But

20:22

what if we saw that

20:25

awkwardness as just a story that we've

20:27

learned to tell ourselves about this thing

20:29

that we call silence? Why should you

20:31

always have something to say? Who says

20:33

that on a first date it has

20:35

to be filled with words? Who says

20:37

silence can't be magical? Who says the

20:39

only way to communicate with that other

20:42

person in a non-stalkerish way is words?

20:44

You can be present and

20:46

you can be silent and you can not

20:48

have anything to say. You don't have to stare at them now

20:51

and check out the space that's right. They

20:53

listen to the music that's playing. They

20:56

don't feel the vibe. And

20:58

we all know that's true because we

21:01

all have someone in our life, whether

21:03

it is a significant other or a

21:05

sibling or a best friend,

21:07

someone you enjoy. I think about Nicodemus.

21:10

He and I can go on

21:12

a long road trip together and

21:15

spend two or three hours without saying

21:17

a word to each other, maybe

21:20

even longer. And it's

21:22

not awkward silence, it's just

21:24

silence. Awkward is

21:27

the story I'm telling myself because

21:29

I'm setting an expectation up that

21:31

I should be filling this space

21:33

with something. I should be filling

21:35

this empty room with some stuff.

21:37

I should be filling this silence

21:40

with conversation. There's nothing wrong with

21:42

stuff. There's nothing wrong with conversation

21:44

until it gets in the way

21:47

of your peace. Victoria, let's

21:49

send you a copy of the audiobook

21:51

version of Emotional Clutter. I really enjoyed

21:53

recording this with you, TK. You

21:56

have such a great audiobook voice in

21:58

the way that you performed

22:01

on this audio book. And then

22:03

we recorded these little mini podcast

22:06

conversations between each chapter, man,

22:08

you did such an awesome job with emotional

22:10

clutter. I'm excited to get this out into

22:12

the world. theminimalist.com/emotional clutter. If

22:14

you want to check that

22:16

out. Malabam,

22:20

let's move on to some social media

22:22

questions. Our first social media question

22:24

today is from Facebook. Cecilia has got something

22:26

for us. Living as a minimalist

22:28

has come natural to me, but lately I

22:31

found myself wanting a new car and a

22:33

little bit of high end jewelry. Why

22:36

do I struggle with the idea

22:38

of wanting lovely things and being

22:40

a minimalist? This is

22:42

a paradox for me, TK, because

22:44

I think the most lovely things

22:46

are often minimalist in nature. Minimalism

22:49

is beautiful to me because the

22:52

bones are the beauty. When I

22:54

see a really beautiful, minimalist space,

22:57

it can be high end. I think

22:59

of it as simple luxury. When

23:02

you go to a beautiful space and even a beautiful retail

23:04

store. I don't know if you've ever been to like one

23:06

of the James Pierce retail stores.

23:08

He's a clothing store. He sells

23:11

basic essential clothing, pants and

23:13

shirts. And, but he

23:15

creates a whole experience and it's

23:18

a beautiful space, but it

23:20

is aggressively simple. It doesn't

23:22

have too much. It also doesn't

23:25

have too little.

23:28

And I think that's important. And so you

23:30

might be at a point right now, Cecilia, where

23:32

you have too little and you

23:34

want to show off your personality. You

23:37

want to show certain parts

23:39

of yourself that you're currently not

23:41

able to express with your current

23:44

possessions or resources that you might

23:46

have, including your car. However,

23:48

if your

23:50

desires are not actually

23:53

your desires, that means they

23:55

were handed to you by someone else and

23:57

quite often that's what happens. It's a reason.

24:00

that we don't want to do advertisements on

24:02

a show like this because I

24:04

don't want to create a new

24:07

desire in you because

24:09

a corporation paid me to make

24:11

you feel inadequate and so the

24:13

question I have to ask myself is Will

24:16

that high-end jewelry enhance your life?

24:18

Maybe you get to decide and

24:21

then you get to ask yourself some questions We've

24:23

got these six questions. You can ask before you

24:25

buy something. It's a wallpaper. You can put on

24:27

your phone Just go to the minimalist comm slash

24:29

before we'll put a link to that in the

24:32

show notes But what you can do

24:34

is you ask yourself some of these questions. Is this

24:36

the best use of this money? Maybe

24:38

I want this really nice ring or nice

24:40

bracelet. Okay, that's art. It's

24:42

jewelry. It can be beautiful Is

24:45

that the best use of this money? Will this

24:47

actually add value to my life? Is

24:50

this something I desire or is

24:52

it a mimetic desire is someone else

24:54

desiring this for me? And then

24:56

they're imposing their desires on me whether

24:59

that's a corporation or more likely It's

25:01

someone from our peer group because they

25:04

think the jewelry or the car looks

25:06

good and is Impressive and

25:09

of course, I want to impress the people closest to me

25:12

One of the most impressive things to me. However is

25:15

always the person who

25:17

doesn't need those

25:20

things For validation. I

25:22

know plenty of people wear really nice jewelry

25:24

or nice clothing and they're real fashionable But

25:28

the people are most impression impressive even from

25:30

that group or the people who aren't

25:32

trying to impress me That's

25:35

right. You know buying decisions aren't

25:37

made in the abstract There's always

25:39

an element of comparison and prices

25:42

in some sense Represent

25:44

that we all know the experience of

25:46

saying things like hey man I

25:48

like that pair of shoes and not for

25:50

$300. I like that jacket not for $500

25:54

That's a beautiful home. Not for me at

25:56

5 mil, right? Like

26:00

is an abstract statement. There's no cost

26:02

to liking anything. But once you put

26:04

a price tag on that, I like,

26:07

it contextualizes it in a

26:09

way that makes you think about

26:12

it in terms of a trade-off. We've

26:14

often quoted Thomas Sowell, there are no

26:16

solutions, only trade-offs. And so

26:18

when I think about budgets, I

26:21

think about budgets in terms

26:23

of the fact that we're all

26:25

finite. So we only have

26:27

a finite quantity of money. We only

26:30

have a finite amount of time, a

26:32

finite amount of energy, a finite ability

26:34

to pay attention to a finite number

26:37

of things. And none of

26:39

us can be two places or three

26:41

places at the same time. And so

26:43

when you're making decisions, asking yourself, is

26:45

it in the budget means a lot

26:47

more than can I afford it in

26:49

the abstract. It means given

26:51

the fact that a trade-off will

26:53

have to be made, that I will have

26:55

to make myself a little less available to

26:57

something else in order to become available to

26:59

that, that I will have to put at

27:01

risk my ability to buy, do or have

27:04

something else in order to have that. Then

27:07

you actually give yourself the freedom to

27:10

do whatever you want within the budget

27:12

without condemning yourself, but also you secure

27:14

for yourself the ability to think critically

27:17

about how important that is to you.

27:19

So if you want that necklace, there's

27:22

no one outside yourself who can

27:24

tell you if that's a good choice. Like,

27:27

just remind yourself that there's a trade-off, that

27:30

the moment you purchase that necklace, you're becoming a

27:32

little less available to something else, and

27:34

you're putting at risk your ability to buy

27:37

something else. And if you can

27:39

look at that something else and go, yeah,

27:42

at the level of priority, I think this

27:44

is the thing that's gonna move the needle

27:46

in my life, then you're good.

27:49

It just so happens to be the case that

27:51

for many of us, that's not the

27:53

thing that moves the needle in our lives.

27:55

And unfortunately, we often find out after the

27:58

purchase is made and we're spending years. is

28:00

working off the debt that we accumulated by

28:02

doing that. As long as you do that

28:04

critical thinking beforehand, you'll know what's best for

28:06

you. I think it's also

28:08

important to remember what we were talking about

28:11

with the first question. You yourself are complete

28:13

in an empty room, but

28:15

then don't interpret that as, well, I guess

28:17

I don't need anything ever because

28:20

I'm already complete. You

28:22

are complete. The question then

28:24

is, what's going to

28:27

augment my life? What experiences,

28:29

what relationships, what creative endeavors,

28:31

what career or vocation or

28:33

profession are going to augment

28:35

my life? But then

28:38

also what material possessions are

28:40

going to enhance my life? What's

28:42

going to bring in beauty? Because as we talked

28:44

about with Erwin McManus, beauty

28:47

is essential. Now, we

28:49

don't want to just keep

28:51

beauty onto our lives with

28:53

the exclusion of the deeper,

28:55

more fulfilling things, but

28:58

that's why minimalism is so appealing to me.

29:01

Because we do get down to the

29:03

bones are the beauty. Does

29:06

it mean living with nothing? It

29:08

means living with that which is

29:10

essential plus that which

29:13

enhances my life in some

29:15

meaningful way. Welcome

29:19

back, y'all. Malabama, what time is

29:21

it? You know what time it is. It's

29:23

time for the lightning round where we answer your

29:25

questions from TikTok. Yes, indeed. You

29:27

can follow the minimalist on TikTok, Instagram,

29:30

Facebook, X, threads, any of these other

29:32

platforms. We are at the minimalists on

29:34

the socials. Now, during the lightning round,

29:36

we each have 60 seconds TK. To

29:39

answer your question with a short, shareable, less than 140

29:41

character response, we call

29:43

them minimal maxims. Professor Sean puts

29:45

those minimal maxims in the show

29:47

notes over at theminimalists.com/podcast so you

29:49

can copy and share our pithy

29:51

answers on social media if you'd

29:53

like. And by the way, you

29:55

can find all of our minimal maxims

29:58

in one place. It's so. simple. Just

30:00

go to minimalmaxims.com and every

30:02

time you refresh it, a

30:05

brand new Minimal Maximum will

30:08

populate on your screen. And every week

30:10

we'll send you our Minimal Maxims right

30:12

there in your inbox along with the

30:14

show notes. Each week we send five,

30:16

ten, fifteen Minimal Maxims to you on

30:19

Monday in one email. Don't worry we

30:21

don't clutter your inbox, right? We

30:23

don't send you spam, we don't send you

30:25

junk, we don't send you advertisements. We will

30:27

send you our show notes and our Minimal

30:30

Maxims at the beginning of each week. If

30:32

you're on our email list over at TheMinimalists.email,

30:34

it looks like Pepper has a question for

30:36

us. I like the structure

30:38

behind your letting go process, but can you

30:40

talk about your process for letting go of

30:42

the emotions that are tied to the things?

30:45

It's interesting. So the letting go process just says

30:47

a review, real simple. If I want to get

30:49

rid of something and I can sell it, I

30:51

try to sell it. If I can't sell it

30:53

in seven days, I lower the price.

30:55

If I can't sell it in 30 days, I donate it.

30:58

And if I can't donate it, I recycle

31:00

it. If I can't recycle it, then I

31:02

trash it. I do the same thing with

31:05

emotions. I try to recycle my emotions and

31:07

donate my emotions. That's one of the worst

31:09

things, isn't it? Donating

31:11

your emotions? Yes, that isn't that

31:14

what happens. You get around someone who's real

31:16

sad, they donate that sadness to

31:18

you, right? I know that

31:20

that happens to me quite a bit

31:22

when I get around someone who's real

31:24

joyous and it's like infectious, it's contagious.

31:26

Like, oh, that joy can be

31:28

contagious. And so in a weird way, I

31:31

guess that is kind of what happens. Although

31:33

it doesn't get rid of my emotion, it

31:35

almost amplifies my emotion. If I'm joyous and

31:38

I'm your joyous and before

31:40

we know it, we're manic and

31:42

we're exhausted after an hour of

31:44

conversation, especially TK and I since we're

31:46

both introverts. Spend an hour together, two hours

31:48

together. At the end of it, we're like,

31:51

oh, all right. We're like, I

31:53

had enough of this guy. I hope I never

31:55

see him again. on

32:00

the clock TK, what are you guys, something 50 for us?

32:02

Yeah, our feelings are teachers to be

32:05

engaged, not demons to be exercised. You

32:07

know, we have these unpleasant

32:09

emotional experiences and we treat those

32:12

feelings as if they are evil

32:14

spirits to be cast out and

32:16

we seek out the psychological priest,

32:19

hoping that they can sprinkle some

32:21

holy water over the soul and get that anger

32:23

out of us, get that jealousy out of us.

32:25

And we're so busy trying to get rid of

32:27

it, push it out that we

32:29

never take the time to sit with it,

32:32

to walk with it, to listen to it

32:34

and learn from it and become wiser. And

32:37

you know, my process for letting go of feelings,

32:39

it's like my process for letting go of

32:42

my teachers. I don't, I

32:44

don't, I keep them around for as long as

32:46

I can. Some of my teachers come, some of

32:48

them go. None of them are with

32:50

me for a lifetime because everything comes to an end,

32:53

but I try to learn from them as long as

32:55

I have them. It's like that scene in the movie

32:57

Avatar near the end of the movie where everything is

33:00

going to hell and the main protagonist is just in

33:02

a deep sleep and everybody needs this guy to wake

33:04

up, wake up. That's

33:06

what our feelings are there for, to wake us up,

33:08

to remind us that we are alive. Hey, wake up.

33:10

I know I don't feel pleasant right now, but there's

33:13

something you need to think about, something you need to

33:15

process. There's something you need to ask. You need to

33:17

wake up to your humanity, wake up to the power

33:19

of your vulnerability, wake up to your capacity to love

33:21

and to listen. You got to wake up to what

33:23

you really want for you. Wake up to your need

33:26

to stand up for yourself. Wake up. You

33:28

don't want to get rid of those friends. You

33:30

don't want to get rid of those allies. They're

33:32

messengers there to teach you something. And when you

33:34

listen, it begins to transform the experience. How

33:37

do you let go of the emotions that

33:39

are tied to things? You

33:43

simply stop clinging. Letting

33:45

go is not something you do. It

33:48

is something you stop doing. You

33:51

stop clinging to those emotions. And

33:54

all of a sudden, they begin to disappear. This

33:57

too shall pass. And

34:00

all of a sudden, that sadness that

34:02

I felt yesterday, I don't

34:04

feel it today. The problem

34:06

is we start to cling to

34:08

these so-called negative emotions, because

34:10

they give us a sense of certainty.

34:14

Every negative emotion that you

34:16

experience, it points

34:19

toward your biggest fear. And

34:22

that fear is, I

34:25

am not enough. Which

34:28

is the biggest lie you've ever

34:30

been told. When

34:32

you cling to a negative emotion, what

34:35

you're clinging to is that story. I

34:38

am not enough. We

34:40

don't need to pathologize those negative emotions.

34:43

It's not bad to feel sad.

34:46

It's not bad to feel angry. It's

34:49

not bad to feel disappointed.

34:51

It's not bad to feel upset.

34:53

It's not bad to feel grief. In

34:55

fact, there's an appropriate time for all

34:57

of those things. But

35:00

when I hold on to them really tightly, because

35:02

they give me that sense of certainty, I am

35:05

enough, but only with all of these negative

35:07

emotions that I cling to. Well,

35:10

then we don't make room for

35:12

the positive emotions,

35:15

for the pleasant emotions, but

35:17

to the other side of that emotional coin.

35:21

Imagine me giving you a box and

35:24

saying, Hey,

35:28

Josh, I got this box here. How do

35:31

I let this go? The

35:33

first question to ask is, well, what is

35:35

it? Because if

35:38

that's a car battery inside that box,

35:41

then the answer to the question

35:43

might differ from if it's

35:45

a bunch of cash, knowing

35:48

when it's me. Easy

35:51

solution. Well, you might want to ask, where did it

35:53

come from? And why are you trying to let it

35:55

go? No question. No question. That

36:00

was a sign up for our Patreon. Wasn't

36:02

there some deal you made with Ryan like that? I

36:04

forget. There's like a no question deal that you guys

36:06

have. I'm

36:08

trying to think of this. So, um, there's

36:12

some type of like, Oh,

36:14

you're scenario. So you are mistaking Ryan

36:16

and I for a scene from the

36:18

movie, The Town. Yes. Starring Ben Affleck.

36:21

Yes. And, uh, the guy with the

36:23

forearms, Jeremy Renner. Um, and

36:27

there's a moment in there where. Ben

36:29

Affleck walks in room. He's like, I really need you,

36:31

uh, to, he goes, we're going

36:34

somewhere. We're going to hurt some people and

36:36

you can't ask me any questions ever. And

36:38

he goes, okay, whose car are we taking?

36:42

But that sounds like something Ryan would say.

36:44

Yes, absolutely. He would definitely be the guy

36:47

like, all right, whose car are we taking?

36:49

I always, who's that

36:51

Ben Affleck and, and Jeremy Renner. Yeah.

36:54

I always confuse you and Ryan with those two guys.

36:57

It's understandable. It's

36:59

the forearms. But

37:02

you know, like the point of this analogy is,

37:04

Hey, look, there's no one way to

37:06

get rid of everything, right? And

37:09

a part of knowing how to let

37:11

go of something involves identifying what it

37:13

is and that means taking time to

37:15

unwrap it, taking time to unpack it,

37:17

unbox it and look at it and

37:20

be present with it long enough to

37:22

say, okay, this is

37:24

cash. The way we need to think about letting

37:26

go of this is different. This

37:28

is a car battery. The

37:31

rules regarding how and where and when

37:33

we let this go is also different.

37:35

It's the same thing with anything going

37:37

on in your interior. And

37:45

be present with it long enough to

37:47

know what it is, what it is,

37:49

not merely in terms of what words

37:51

can I use to describe it like

37:54

this is anger. This is sadness. This

37:56

is jealousy, but what it is in

37:58

the sense of what it means. to

38:00

me. Why am I feeling

38:02

that and what are my stories around

38:04

that? And it's that process of unpacking

38:06

it that gives you the

38:09

wisdom to know what to do with it and what

38:11

to hang on to. I've got another

38:13

question here for you in a moment but

38:15

first real quick for right here right now

38:17

here's one thing that's going on in the

38:20

life of the minimalist TK I love what

38:22

you did with the Minimalism Life

38:24

podcast. So for those of you who don't know

38:26

we have this little side project it's called Minimalism

38:28

Life you can check it out at minimalism.com which

38:30

by the way

38:32

beautiful site redesign that should be

38:35

implemented by the time this episode

38:37

comes out stunning

38:39

website aggressively minimalist

38:41

minimalism.com it's

38:43

the best in minimalist design

38:46

and art and travel and

38:48

well-being and intentional living minimalist

38:50

lifestyle and you can check

38:52

out all of the archives over there but we

38:54

also have this little micro podcast

38:56

called the Minimalism Life podcast we'll put a

38:58

link to both of these in the show

39:01

notes and for the last

39:03

couple years once a month I've been

39:05

publishing an episode there and they're usually

39:07

three to five minutes long I'll read

39:10

something and then I'll provide some additional

39:12

commentary about something that I've written about

39:14

letting go or about different insights that

39:16

I've had and TK just started doing

39:19

these episodes on his own as well

39:21

and the first one you did is

39:23

about how the experts are all right

39:26

and the experts are all wrong and

39:28

I won't spoil it but I'll encourage

39:30

you to go listen to it it's

39:32

about a five-minute episode and

39:34

I just get such joy from listening

39:36

to that because you always give me

39:38

these different perspectives and doing it in

39:41

these bite-sized chunks is a beautiful way

39:43

to celebrate that wisdom I can play

39:45

it for five minutes and I walk

39:47

away with one or two or three

39:50

things that have added value to my

39:52

life in this attenuated time frame so

39:54

bravo plenty more of those episodes to

39:56

come as well minimalism.com it's

39:59

the Minimalism Life podcast. You can check

40:01

out all of my archives over there. And

40:04

of course, TK is doing the new

40:06

season there at Minimalism Life. Let's

40:09

move on over to Fams. The Friday

40:11

afternoon, Minimal Zoom, every month, the first

40:13

Friday of each month, we do a

40:15

Zoom call with our lovely Patreon subscribers

40:17

and Malabamas there in the chat. She's

40:19

collecting your additional questions that we don't

40:21

get to in that Zoom

40:23

call. You can turn your camera on, we interact

40:25

with you. It's like having a live event or

40:28

just having a simple Zoom call with a minimalist

40:30

or you turn your camera off, turn your mic off and

40:33

just be a fly on the

40:35

wall. You can witness the conversations,

40:37

the joy, the laughter, the tears

40:39

that happen on these Friday afternoon,

40:41

minimalist Zooms. Malabama.

40:44

Sarah had a question. Can

40:46

owning things deprive you of the

40:49

joy of sharing them? For example,

40:51

if you buy home workout equipment, does

40:54

that keep you from potentially connecting with

40:56

a community at a gym? Rob

40:58

Bell has this great chapter in

41:01

a book that came out in 2009. The

41:04

book is called Drops Like Stars. And

41:07

in that chapter, I

41:10

read it at our most recent Sunday symposium that

41:12

we did, the live event that we did. By the

41:14

way, we're on tour right now. theminimalists.com/tour

41:16

free tour stops, seven of

41:18

them all across California, people

41:20

coming from all over the

41:22

world to these events. You

41:25

can check those out if there are still some tickets

41:27

left. theminimalists.com for all

41:29

the details there. But

41:32

when we did the most recent Sunday

41:34

symposium live event, I read something from that

41:36

book and he talks about, there's

41:39

a difference between owning a thing and

41:41

possessing a thing. And he gives

41:43

a few examples. The example I absolutely love

41:45

from the book is, he

41:47

says, I've got this guitar and he describes

41:50

the guitar and all the pedals and the

41:52

strings and the brand and the guitar, he

41:54

describes it. He owns that guitar. He

41:57

has a friend though, Jeff, who comes over to his house from

41:59

time to time. time. Jeff

42:02

takes that guitar off the wall and

42:05

he possesses that guitar. No,

42:07

he doesn't own it, but he's

42:09

able to possess it. And

42:12

you've heard me talk about the difference

42:14

between ownership and access to a thing,

42:16

but what Rob Bell illuminates

42:19

there is there's a real difference. It's

42:21

possible to own something and cling to it really

42:23

tightly and you don't get any joy from it

42:25

and no one else gets joy from it as

42:27

well. It's also possible to possess

42:31

something, to possess that guitar.

42:34

Rob said he does things

42:36

with that guitar I couldn't even

42:38

imagine doing. I

42:41

own it, but he possesses

42:44

it. Wow.

42:48

That's fascinating, that's

42:51

awesome. There's so much more

42:55

than the things we own and that

42:57

kind of illustrates in this really beautiful way

43:00

just how it's us who gives

43:02

definition to the stuff rather than

43:05

the other way around. That's the

43:07

fundamental difference between consumerism and creativity.

43:09

Consumerism says you are what you

43:12

own and what you own is

43:14

what gives meaning to your life.

43:16

Whereas creativity says I am the

43:19

capacity to impact my world.

43:22

I am the capacity to negotiate

43:24

possibility. I am the capacity

43:26

to bring forth what has not yet been

43:28

and I give meaning to the things that

43:30

I own and to the things around me.

43:34

To this question, I think it's

43:36

interesting because on one end that

43:40

is certainly true in a very cool

43:42

way. One of the things you

43:44

know is that before I come here there's

43:47

a monastery that I go to to spend a little time in

43:49

it, but they recently

43:51

closed. It's no

43:53

longer open to the public. I

43:55

went on the last day and

43:58

there's a guy who works in the gift shop and

44:00

I went in there to say goodbye to

44:02

him. And the gift shop

44:04

is mostly empty. There's nothing really there. And

44:06

I make some comment about, oh,

44:09

you know, wish they had like some books or something like that.

44:13

And he kind of looks around and he's like, don't

44:15

with me. And this monastery

44:17

is all empty. Now it's been like a couple

44:19

of years before it since any nuns have been

44:21

there. And he walks me around

44:24

and we go through all these different contours

44:26

and we end up in a library. And

44:29

he says, I'm going to have to, you know,

44:32

figure out what happens with all of this. He

44:34

goes, but whatever you

44:37

want. And I say, you mean you'll

44:40

sell me some of the books in here? He goes,

44:42

no. He goes, take what you want. Oh,

44:45

my stars. And he's like, you got two minutes. This

44:48

is super. The price is

44:51

right. And it's just like

44:53

running down. Supermarket sweep. They

44:55

gave them the carts and they got to go around

44:57

the grocery store for two minutes. And that's exactly what

44:59

that is. Oh, Michelle had to be furious. She's with

45:01

me. She's

45:04

holding you down. And the

45:07

first thing I do, I'm not kidding you, is I laugh.

45:10

And I say, there is no person on

45:12

this planet who's more likely to

45:14

be in this situation. I'm in an

45:16

episode of Twilight Zone right now. I'm

45:18

in the middle of a Catholic library

45:21

that's so vast, shelves

45:23

and shelves of books by

45:25

section. My wife is right here

45:28

too. And I can have as

45:30

much as I want. And I also have two

45:32

minutes to make my decisions. So the

45:34

first thing I say to myself is leave

45:36

some for somebody else. That's

45:38

the first thing I say. And I go,

45:40

be realistic and be fair. Don't just hoard.

45:43

And so I stayed honest to that. I got seven

45:45

books and my wife was cool. The first thing I

45:47

do is I go to the section on Mary, then

45:50

I go to the section on history. Here's what's cool.

45:52

As I'm looking, scanning the shelves, I see a

45:54

few things on my wish list. Couple of things

45:56

that are really expensive. Couple of things that are

45:59

rare find. and I get

46:01

them and I'm like, all right, I'm ready, you know,

46:03

and you know, I get the books that I wanted.

46:05

But one of the things I was telling Michelle when we left is,

46:08

man, can you

46:10

imagine how meaningless of

46:12

an offer that would have been if I

46:15

were a billionaire whose house

46:17

had a full library with every

46:19

book on my wish list? I

46:21

wouldn't have needed that guy and I wouldn't have

46:23

even seen the magic of the moment. But that

46:26

moment was so magical. I just

46:28

went to say goodbye to a guy that

46:30

I liked. I made an offhand

46:32

comment about books and he

46:34

took me into a part of this monastery that

46:37

I had never seen before, which was really cool

46:39

because he's taken me through all these different contours.

46:41

And I'm like, I think I just listened to

46:43

a true crime where some guy was being taken

46:45

in the place like this, like, it was

46:48

a magical experience. It was crazy. I got

46:51

a chance to see this big library and

46:53

everything about it was so meaningful. And sometimes

46:55

when you don't have everything that you want

46:57

and you can't get everything you want on

46:59

your own, it provides you

47:01

with the gift that is connecting

47:04

with, collaborating with other people. We

47:06

always want to be the power player. We always

47:09

want to be the giver. Everybody has a dream

47:11

of being more generous. None of

47:13

us dream of being the person who is

47:15

the recipient of such generosity, you

47:17

know? And one of the most beautiful aspects

47:19

of being human is letting other people feed

47:22

into us, letting other people do nice things

47:24

for us and the connection, the moments that

47:26

we get to have with each other. And

47:28

so that is one of

47:30

the beautiful possibilities that gets opened up

47:33

when you're not hoarding and you're not dependent upon

47:35

yourself for everything. You get to be honest and

47:38

say, I can't meet all of my needs. I

47:40

meet other people. At the same

47:42

time, I don't think that we should live

47:44

in fear of not getting those experiences.

47:46

If there's something that you're better off

47:48

owning because that's more convenient for you

47:50

and that's right for you, I don't

47:52

think it's healthy to say, oh, it's

47:55

a bad thing for me to own stuff

47:57

because it's going to take away the magic.

48:00

From my life. I think there are pros

48:02

and cons with everything and you don't make

48:04

decisions by trying to predict Which ones will

48:07

lead to magic because the magic comes from

48:09

living in alignment with your values And

48:12

so to go back to Sarah's question

48:14

directly just to wrap this up really quickly What

48:17

I've understood is that ownership can be

48:19

great or it can be a burden.

48:21

Yeah access can be great Right.

48:25

And so if you own something you certainly

48:27

have access to it or I suspect

48:30

you have access to it But

48:33

if you have access to it, you don't necessarily need

48:35

to own it and that's a question about going

48:37

to the gym However, it doesn't

48:39

mean that having your own gym at

48:41

home is not preferable to

48:43

you And so yes, it's

48:46

true that if you buy something it

48:48

might actually prevent Connection

48:51

or sometimes the things you buy sometimes

48:53

the things you own like that guitar

48:55

on Rob Bell's wall You

48:58

know what? That actually enhances his

49:00

connection because a friend comes over and

49:03

Rob owns the thing But his

49:05

friends get to possess that thing for

49:08

that moment. We got a lot more to

49:10

talk about, Malabama What do you got for

49:12

us first? Here's a minimalist insight from one of our

49:14

listeners Hi,

49:17

fellow minimalist. This is for the

49:19

weekend from Hamburg, Germany I

49:21

have a minimalist tip for new parents who don't want

49:24

to spend a lot of money on expensive nursery

49:27

furniture Instead

49:29

of a classic changing table. I simply

49:31

bought a hide adjustable desk and put

49:33

a small shelf underneath it. I Now

49:36

have a changing table that I can use

49:39

as a tall mom without getting back pain

49:41

And the best thing is that we can

49:43

use the table as a desk later on Please

49:46

keep doing what you're doing much love from

49:48

Germany All

49:52

right y'all we'll see you on patreon for

49:54

the full two-hour maximal edition of episode 429

49:57

which includes answers to a bunch more questions like

50:00

How do I deal with the

50:02

judgment that I receive from family,

50:05

friends, and coworkers when they see

50:07

me decluttering my life? What

50:10

do I do with the shame that

50:12

I'm carrying from my past

50:14

mistakes? How do

50:16

we let go of bad memories so

50:19

we can live more fully in

50:21

the present moment? Plus a million

50:23

more questions and simple living segments,

50:25

including a minimalist home tour, a

50:27

tiny cabin in the woods, and

50:30

the added value segment this week on the

50:32

private podcast. I think all of us were

50:35

tearing up. Yeah. Oh,

50:37

it's so, so good. Plus,

50:40

much, much more of

50:42

less. Visit patreon.com/The Minimalist

50:44

or click the link down

50:46

in the description to subscribe and

50:49

get your personal links so that

50:51

our weekly maximal episodes play in

50:53

your favorite podcast app. You

50:55

also get access to all of our private

50:57

podcast archives, all of our archives, in fact,

51:00

all the way back to episode number one,

51:02

way back in 2015. By

51:04

the way, Patreon is now offering free

51:06

trials. So if you'd like to test

51:08

drive our private podcast, you can join

51:10

for seven days for free. And

51:13

that is our minimal episode for today. If

51:15

you leave here with just one message, let

51:19

it be this. Love

51:22

people and use

51:24

things. Because

51:26

the opposite never works. Thanks

51:30

for listening. We'll see you next time. Peace.

51:33

Every little thing you think

51:36

that you need. Every

51:39

little thing you think that you

51:41

need. Every

51:43

little thing that you see

51:45

in your greed. Every

51:48

little thing that you see in your

51:50

greed.