0:01

Let's talk outside backwards.

0:07

Every little thing you think that

0:10

you need. Every

0:24

little thing that you think that

0:26

you need. Every

0:28

little thing that's just feeding

0:31

your greed. Oh,

0:33

I bet that you'll be fine

0:35

without it. You're

0:38

listening to The Minimalist Podcast with

0:40

Joshua Fields-Milburn and T.K. Coleman. Thank

0:43

you, Malabama. Hello, everybody. Nicodemus

0:45

will be joining us in a bit

0:47

to talk about three distinct kinds of

0:50

moving on. That's right. We're

0:52

talking about three different ways to let go.

0:54

Graduation, divorce, and

0:56

death. Why? Because

0:58

today is a special celebration for

1:01

the Minimalists. Today is

1:03

graduation day. We're letting go of

1:06

several people, things

1:08

and non-things, that have been difficult for us

1:10

to let go of. And no, this is

1:12

not an April Fool's joke. I know this

1:14

is coming out on April Fool's Day, but

1:16

this is very real. Plus, we're going to

1:19

answer a bunch of your questions as well.

1:21

So coming up on this free public minimal

1:23

episode, a caller has a question about detaching

1:26

from his former spouse. And then

1:28

we've got a lightning round question

1:30

about how to move on when

1:32

you feel like you can't let

1:34

go of someone or something. Followed

1:37

by a very special right here,

1:39

right now segment and a listener tip for you.

1:42

You can check out the full Maximal

1:44

edition of episode 437. That's

1:47

the full two hour episode where we

1:49

answer like four or five times the

1:51

questions and we dive

1:53

deep into several simple living segments.

1:55

That private podcast episode is out

1:58

right now at patreon.com. Your

2:02

support keeps our podcast 100%

2:04

advertisement free because sing along

2:06

at home, y'all. Advertisements

2:10

suck. Let's start with our callers, TK. If you've

2:12

got a question or a comment for our show,

2:14

give us a call. We'd love to hear from

2:16

you. Our phone number

2:18

is 406-219-7839 or email a voice

2:20

recording right from your phone to

2:23

podcast at theminimalists.com. Our

2:25

first question today is

2:28

from Aaron. Hey, how's it

2:30

going, minimalists? This is Aaron from Seattle

2:33

and I am a Patreon subscriber. I

2:35

just want to give a special shout out

2:37

to TK, Josh, and Ryan and everyone in

2:39

the studio. The work that

2:42

you guys are doing is incredible and you've helped

2:44

me completely change my life. My

2:46

question today is, how can

2:48

I effectively navigate the challenges of

2:50

detaching from my former spouse while

2:52

actively co-parenting and maintaining a strong

2:55

familial bond? Given our

2:57

shared responsibility to our son, it is

2:59

important for us to prioritize consistent and

3:01

frequent quality time together. Inevitably,

3:03

such interactions can blur the line

3:06

between our past and present relationship,

3:08

like flirting and sex. I

3:11

find it difficult to fully detach from

3:13

this dynamic, unable to set aside the

3:15

emotional attachment that persists. But

3:18

despite desiring to move forward, I

3:20

inevitably find myself engaging in activities that

3:22

go beyond the scope of co-parenting, such

3:25

as attending the household chores and assisting her

3:27

in various capacities in her life. This

3:30

frequently invokes the feelings of being married

3:32

once again, a sediment that is echoed

3:35

by our family as well. Thanks

3:37

again, guys. Keep up the good work. TK,

3:41

I'm interested in your thoughts on this

3:43

because Aaron is seemingly in this liminal

3:45

space right now. I

3:47

wrote down this minimal maxim,

3:49

every relationship ends by way

3:51

of graduation divorce. Or

3:53

death. And I want to talk

3:56

about what those three things might mean real quick.

3:58

And I'd love to hear your thoughts. insights

4:00

because he hasn't gone through any of those

4:02

necessarily or maybe there was a divorce or

4:04

maybe there was a graduation and maybe even

4:07

it felt like a death. So for me

4:09

graduation is celebratory. It's

4:11

the celebratory moving on from

4:13

a person, place, idea thing

4:15

or commitment after a favorable

4:18

stay. Now favorable does not

4:20

mean perfect. Favorable doesn't mean

4:22

it went exactly how I

4:24

thought everything should have gone

4:27

but sometimes it's about reframing and

4:29

for me especially with my

4:31

first marriage I found that reframing

4:33

it from divorce to graduation was

4:35

a more useful way for me

4:38

to move on but also to

4:40

acknowledge the past to celebrate the

4:42

past without carrying that past forward

4:45

and then of course you have divorce. We

4:48

all know the twinge of divorce even hear

4:50

the word divorce and

4:53

it's bitter and divorce is bitterly

4:55

tearing yourself away from a

4:58

person, place, idea, thing or

5:00

commitment after an

5:02

overlong stay. I

5:05

stayed here too long. This

5:08

relationship has become obsolete or at least

5:10

the way that it is constituted right

5:12

now and I think this

5:14

happens when you don't graduate at

5:16

the appropriate time. Imagine that

5:18

you're back in high school TK and all of a

5:21

sudden it's like okay I just got out of the

5:23

12th grade I guess I'm just gonna stick around for

5:25

a while. At some point a

5:27

year from now, five years from now, a

5:29

decade from now you're gonna be like get

5:32

me I'm bitter I'm resentful. In fact I

5:34

wrote down some associated qualities of divorce, annoyance,

5:37

frustration, anger, resentment,

5:41

contempt, renouncement. I'm

5:43

gonna renounce this person or

5:45

this relationship, scarcity. Divorce

5:47

is often the product of a

5:50

scarcity mindset whereas if you look

5:52

at graduation the associated qualities of

5:55

graduation are alightness,

5:57

appreciation, acceptance. freedom,

6:01

joy, grace, peace, wholeness,

6:04

abundance. And

6:06

so I like to make this distinction

6:08

and I wanna be clear, it's a

6:10

sort of reframing here. I don't mean

6:12

you're literally gonna get a diploma from

6:15

your relationship. And also

6:17

with divorce, sometimes that just means we stayed

6:19

way too long and now we feel resentful

6:21

or bitter about that. There's this

6:23

third way that we move on and

6:25

it's death. And death

6:27

happens either literally or figuratively. Death

6:30

is being forced to terminate your

6:32

relationship with a person, place, idea,

6:34

thing or commitment before you are

6:36

ready to let go. It

6:40

could be a literal death, someone dies

6:42

and you feel that sense of loss,

6:44

especially if it was unexpected, right? But

6:46

sometimes a relationship just dies, someone ghosts

6:48

you and they walk out and you

6:50

feel like, oh, this is

6:52

still incomplete. And so I wrote down some

6:54

associated qualities for death. It's loss

6:57

and shock and denial and

6:59

grief and confusion and

7:02

chaos, fear. And

7:05

there's also this partiality like,

7:07

oh, this feels incomplete. I

7:09

was not ready for this

7:12

to happen. And so

7:14

I think what we're talking with Aaron

7:16

about today is he's in this liminal

7:18

space where he didn't necessarily

7:20

have a divorce. It's not a

7:23

bitterness about the relationship, but

7:25

he hasn't really moved on from the

7:27

relationship either. And so he's dragging bits

7:29

of the past into the present. And

7:32

I think that's probably because he hasn't

7:35

celebrated the relationship for what it

7:37

was and graduated from it into

7:39

a new relationship. By the

7:41

way, I see in your three

7:43

categories, some overlap between divorce and

7:45

death, because if you are

7:47

on the receiving end of a divorce that

7:49

you don't want, that for you

7:52

is a kind of death though for your

7:54

partner, it's a divorce. Would that be

7:56

a right way to categorize it in your? I think

7:58

so. And I think there's overlap with all. three

8:00

of these because you can have a divorce

8:02

where it's better, but then you can recontextualize

8:04

it as a graduation. You can

8:07

have a death, but get to a moment

8:09

where you have acceptance, which is sort

8:11

of the spirit of a graduation. So

8:13

it's certainly going to start one way,

8:15

but it doesn't have to end the

8:17

way that it starts. And

8:19

death itself, right? Outside of the context of

8:22

divorce, death can be construed as a kind

8:24

of graduation. In graduation, if you sort

8:27

of like a strip away the concept

8:29

of death from the demonization of it can be

8:31

a kind of death, but a death that is

8:33

a necessary part

8:35

of evolution. So

8:39

there's some interesting stuff here. Aaron,

8:42

the first thing I think about is

8:47

it's better to be in the

8:49

situation that you're in than to be struggling

8:52

with the problem of fighting and yelling all the time.

8:54

It's my personal opinion, right? Hey,

8:56

every time we get together, we

8:59

find ourselves laughing together,

9:02

flirting together, loving

9:04

each other, and just having a

9:06

good time that I regret having. Well,

9:09

that sounds to me like a little better than every

9:11

time we get together, we're fighting in front of the

9:14

kid, we're yelling in front of the kid, and so

9:16

on. So I'll just contextualize it with

9:18

that. However, if

9:20

this is something that is creating problems in

9:23

other areas of life, it's

9:26

one of those things where it can simply

9:28

be helpful to state intentions

9:30

ahead of time. Sometimes

9:33

the sheer power of looking another

9:35

person in the eye and saying,

9:37

hey, ahead of time, based

9:39

on the patterns we've had in the past, this

9:42

is where I want to go with you. This

9:44

is what's off limits for me.

9:46

And setting forth that intention produces

9:49

a certain kind of tension when

9:51

you're together and you feel tempted

9:53

to go in that direction. Professor

9:56

Sean and I were talking before the show and

9:58

I was asking him about the light and if

10:00

he can rig my iPhone to emulate a light

10:02

phone. And he says, yeah, you can do it.

10:05

And I said, well, one question about that, can

10:08

I truly take away the options to have

10:10

apps or will it just look like an

10:12

iPhone so that I take this ability away

10:14

from myself, even if I want to download

10:16

an app? And he says, no, you can't

10:18

do that. And then he says, but what

10:20

you could do is just

10:22

rely on old-fashioned discipline. And

10:25

Danny and I laughed. And

10:27

it made me think about

10:29

two kinds of discipline. The

10:32

first kind of discipline is just making yourself

10:35

do the things that you know you need to do.

10:38

But the second kind of discipline is like what

10:40

someone in recovery exercises when they say, I'm

10:43

not going to go into that bar. I'm not going

10:45

to go around those friends. It's the discipline of knowing

10:47

your weaknesses, being honest about them, and

10:50

setting up boundaries that protect you from

10:52

putting yourself in situations where you know you

10:55

have not developed the willpower to resist

10:57

it. Both

10:59

those kinds of discipline are important because

11:02

discipline is just a means to an end, right?

11:04

It's not about holding up a badge that says,

11:06

look, everyone, worship me. I'm disciplined. It's about saying,

11:08

no, this is the life that I want to

11:11

live, and discipline is whatever gets me there. And

11:14

I think by being intentional and having a conversation

11:16

about it and then setting some boundaries for where

11:20

are we going to hang out together as

11:22

a family? How am I going to pick

11:24

up the kid, and how are you going to pick up the kid?

11:27

So what degree are we coming into each

11:29

other's spaces and for how long? And

11:31

if you have a conversation with her about that,

11:33

it can give both of you a chance to

11:35

put that on the table and just

11:37

own who you want to be rather than

11:40

being on autopilot and being led by impulses. I

11:42

have a good friend back in the Midwest, and

11:44

he graduated from high school. He went off to

11:46

college and

11:48

eventually got his master's degree and became a counselor for

11:51

high schools. And he went back to his high school

11:54

and became a counselor there. Now,

11:56

why do I bring that up as an analogy? Well,

11:59

because he graduated. But he

12:01

eventually came back, but his role

12:03

was appreciably different within that system,

12:05

within the school. And the same

12:07

is true with many of my

12:09

former lovers. I have a great

12:11

rapport with those people without needing

12:13

for the relationship to be exactly

12:15

the same as it was before.

12:17

In fact, the way that

12:20

it was before didn't work for

12:22

whatever reason. And every relationship is

12:24

unique, but here's the 12 different

12:26

reasons that these 12 relationships didn't

12:28

work, right? And that's okay.

12:30

But you can also come back to

12:32

that relationship after an appropriate amount of

12:35

time. You get to decide what's appropriate

12:37

for you. And I love this idea,

12:39

TK, of, okay, you moved

12:41

on, but it sounds like you haven't

12:43

completely moved on to what the new

12:45

version of the relationship is. And

12:48

maybe you're telling yourself, like, oh, we're

12:50

not allowed to be intimate. Okay, that's

12:52

fine. If that's what you want, right?

12:55

But also if you want something where,

12:57

yeah, well, we're still intimate, but just

12:59

intimate in a different way. Intimate, by

13:01

the way, doesn't mean sexually intimate necessarily,

13:04

but there are different ways that people

13:06

interact with each other intimately. Or if

13:08

you just want to be cordial with

13:10

the other person because you're co-parenting, that's

13:13

fine too. But if you don't know

13:15

what the puzzle looks like, and I

13:17

just hand you a thousand puzzle pieces,

13:20

good luck trying to put that together. And that's

13:22

where Aaron is right now. Turn

13:24

over the box, Aaron. What does the front

13:26

of the box look like? What is that

13:28

puzzle that you're trying to put together?

13:30

Because right now you've got a bunch of pieces

13:32

there on the table, and you're just grabbing this

13:34

one, this one, and this one might be from

13:37

a completely different puzzle, right? This one's from a

13:39

puzzle that existed in the past. And

13:41

so I can set aside those pieces and

13:43

I can determine, okay, with the pieces that

13:45

I have right now, what is the puzzle

13:47

that I am trying to construct here in

13:50

front of me? And I'd love

13:52

to give you access to our new

13:54

course. It's called Simplify Everything, and it's

13:57

open for 72 hours only. You

13:59

can find it at simplify everything dot XYZ. And

14:01

the reason I bring this up

14:03

for you, Aaron, is it's five

14:05

different weeks we talk about physical

14:08

clutter and calendar clutter and financial

14:10

clutter. But we also talk about

14:12

relationship clutter. And that's one type

14:14

of clutter that you're dealing with

14:16

right now, because there's excess in

14:18

this relationship. And so what we

14:20

do is we provide some insights

14:23

that have worked for us over the last dozen

14:25

or so years as the minimalist.

14:27

And we try to declutter every

14:30

aspect of your life. You can

14:32

find all the details over at

14:34

simplify everything dot XYZ. That course

14:37

is open for 72 hours

14:39

only. However, if you listen to this episode well

14:42

after it was available, just get on our email

14:44

list over there. And we'll let you know next

14:46

time it opens. We usually open it two times

14:48

a year. All right, let's take a

14:50

quick pandiculation break so we can get Nicodemus on the

14:52

phone. Before

14:56

we get back to our callers, Malabama, what

14:59

time is it? You know what time it is. It's

15:01

time for the lightning round where we answer your

15:03

questions from Patreon. Yes, indeed. Now during the

15:05

lightning round, we each have 60 seconds

15:08

to answer your question with

15:10

a short, shareable, less than

15:12

140-character response. We might not

15:14

be on social media anymore, but you might

15:16

be. And you might want to copy and

15:18

share our pithy answers on social media if

15:20

you'd like, or maybe just text our minimal

15:22

maxims to your friends. Maybe you bother your

15:24

parents with our minimal maxims. And by the

15:26

way, we'll send all of our minimal maxims

15:28

to you every week. If you sign up

15:30

for our email list, you'll get our show

15:32

notes. We'll never send you spam or

15:34

junk or advertisements, but we will

15:37

send you our show notes, which

15:39

includes five, six, seven, eight, nine,

15:41

ten minimal maxims each week. They

15:43

show up right there in your

15:45

inbox, theminimalists.email. If you'd like to

15:48

get those show notes directly in

15:50

your email inbox, today's question is

15:52

from Molly. How can someone move

15:54

on if they feel like they can't

15:56

let go of a thing, career, or

15:58

relationship that you to add value to

16:00

their life, but circumstances have changed

16:02

and they feel stuck in the past.

16:05

Well, joining us from his

16:07

home office in beautiful Missoula,

16:10

Montana is my emergency

16:12

contact, Ryan Nicodino. Oh

16:16

man, I still put you down as my emergency

16:18

contact. That's hilarious, man. Ryan,

16:22

you're from the Pithy for Molly? Absolutely.

16:25

Absolutely. Here's my Pithy

16:27

answer. Our identities are

16:29

shaped by that which

16:32

we cling to. And you know,

16:34

we cling to a lot of things in life and

16:36

that's okay. We're allowed to cling to things in life.

16:38

The question is how and why

16:40

are we clinging to them? So

16:42

if there's something meaningful that happened in your life

16:44

and experience and maybe there's a memento or something

16:47

you hold on to to remind you of that

16:49

experience, well, that's great. So good

16:51

news is you get to decide on how

16:53

you remember that experience and how you treat

16:55

that experience. And I can tell you for

16:57

me the things that I've had to let

17:00

go of that I've had to

17:02

say goodbye to instead of mourning

17:04

them, which I did mourn them. But

17:06

now, you know, I celebrate them in a way because

17:08

they created who I am today. I really like who I

17:10

am. And you know,

17:12

on top of it, just

17:15

cherishing the moment and really honoring

17:17

that experience. That for me has

17:19

really been a great way to

17:22

not let go, really to hang on to it

17:24

in a really meaningful way. Yeah, it's a type

17:26

of letting go. It's letting go of the story

17:28

we used to tell ourselves, right? We were talking

17:30

to a previous caller a moment

17:32

ago, Ryan, we were sort of

17:34

delineating the difference between graduation and

17:36

divorce and graduation is this celebration

17:38

of something that happened in the

17:40

past without necessarily having to carry it

17:43

forward. Because divorce is sort

17:45

of like feeling bitter or resentful about

17:47

a thing and continuing to carry that

17:49

bitterness and that resentment forward. Nick and

17:51

Demas, we've got some exciting things during

17:53

our right here, right now segment. Please

17:56

stick around for that. But first, I

17:58

want to get something. Matthew from

18:00

TK Coleman. What do you got for us TK? It's

18:03

easier to move on if you let go of the need to move

18:05

on. One of the coping

18:07

mechanisms I learned early on as a kid

18:09

was to dismiss things as stupid when I

18:11

couldn't have them. Oh, I can't go to

18:14

that movie? It's stupid anyway. I can't borrow

18:16

your comic book? Well that's stupid anyway. It

18:18

reminds me of a time in college when

18:20

me and my friend saw this gorgeous girl

18:23

and we both were like, man, she is

18:25

fine. And so he stepped to

18:27

her and she gave him a very icy cold

18:29

shoulder. She dismissed him so hard and

18:31

he comes back to me and he's like, man,

18:34

she wasn't really pretty anyway. And I

18:36

was like, oh, you know what?

18:38

She was all that just like

18:40

we thought about 30 seconds ago.

18:43

And we don't need to tell that lie just to say

18:45

she ain't the only fish in the sea. Sometimes

18:48

it's that willingness to take a look at what's

18:50

in our path, to take a look at that

18:52

thing that served us at some point. And

18:55

to be really honest about it, flatteringly honest

18:57

about it, what an amazing job I had.

18:59

What an amazing relationship that was. What

19:02

an amazing school that was. What an amazing

19:04

time in my life without pressuring

19:07

ourselves to use dismissal

19:09

as a prerequisite for moving on. When we

19:11

do that, we create the wiggle room to

19:13

say, that was an amazing job and

19:15

it's not the last one. That was an

19:18

amazing girlfriend, boyfriend, or friend to me.

19:21

And that's just evidence that there are other

19:23

people like that I can attract into my

19:25

life. What an amazing magical time in my

19:27

life. That was the result of

19:29

me being lined up with the energy of who

19:31

I am and trusting in the goodness of life

19:33

itself. And I wonder what else I can create

19:36

from here. It's that faith in your future, what

19:38

you can create that gives you the ability to

19:40

let go of the past. And you get that

19:42

ability by looking at your path honestly and affirming

19:44

where it has served you. And

19:46

even in that scenario you're talking about, right? This, oh

19:49

you know what, she didn't like me or whatever,

19:51

but that was an amazing lesson that I got

19:54

out of that. As opposed

19:56

to renouncing the person, renouncing a

19:58

thing. When we let go of so many things. social media

20:00

a few weeks ago, it wasn't about

20:02

renouncing social media, I'm always open to

20:04

the possibility of going back and using

20:07

it differently in an intentional and deliberate

20:09

way. But sometimes you remove yourself, you

20:11

let go for a period of time

20:13

so that if it makes sense to

20:15

pick it back up and use it

20:17

differently, you can do that. I got

20:20

some of the pithy here. You can't

20:22

let go, then you can't move

20:24

on. And so if

20:26

you can't let go, it's impossible

20:28

to move on as old as

20:30

in parable about let go or

20:33

get dragged. You'll be dragged

20:35

if you're unable to let go. But as

20:37

Ryan just talked about, sometimes it makes sense

20:39

to cling to something. If you

20:42

are on the monkey bars, you're trying

20:44

to hold on, you're holding on

20:46

for dear life, well, that makes a whole lot of sense

20:48

because you don't want to fall, right?

20:51

Seth Godin has this exercise, but sometimes you

20:53

want to hold on for dear life, but

20:55

sometimes you want to let go for dear

20:57

life as well. And

20:59

letting go begins when you loosen

21:01

your grip. And that's what

21:04

we're talking about today. We're reframing this

21:06

holding on to something that no longer

21:08

serves us. And part of that is

21:10

really acknowledging if something is

21:12

no longer serving you or you're no

21:15

longer able to serve something, it doesn't

21:18

mean we need to demonize it. We don't need to

21:20

renounce it. We can recognize it for what it

21:22

was. We can celebrate it by graduating on

21:25

to the next thing. And we're just getting

21:27

started on this episode. We've got a lot

21:29

more callers to answer. But first real quick

21:32

for right here, right now, here are

21:35

a few things, a very special right here,

21:37

right now segment, a

21:39

few things going on in the life of

21:41

the minimalist, something exciting, some exciting news. The

21:44

minimalists are experiencing

21:46

several graduations at

21:48

once. Two weeks ago

21:51

during the Cal Newport episode, we graduated

21:53

from social media, although full

21:55

transparency, I still check my DMS about

21:58

once a week whenever I go. go

22:00

onto Instagram, it's I

22:02

just treat it like email at this point. I'm

22:04

not checking posts, I'm not checking anything else, but

22:07

when you let go of something, you get to let

22:09

go by your own terms, right? And for me, it

22:11

was like, well, I still communicate with some people via

22:14

direct message on Instagram, so it's a great way for

22:16

me to do it, not have it on my phone,

22:18

I don't check out posts, but I still go on

22:20

there once a week and I'll see, oh, did anyone

22:22

that I want to hear from message me? And

22:25

I've been training people to, hey, if you wanna

22:27

get ahold of me, then please, make sure you

22:29

just send me a text message or

22:31

give me a phone call. By the way, that

22:33

might be a little too sexy for the podcast,

22:36

man, like, hey, baby, even if I'm not

22:38

trending, I'm still sliding into my DMX DMs.

22:42

I mean, I'm a little too sexy, man. I'm

22:44

too late. Ladies, the DMs are

22:46

still open. No! Oh my

22:48

God. Ladies and DMs! It's just really Nicodemus in

22:50

my DMs, let's be honest about that. Yeah, yeah,

22:53

yeah. Please be able to send me emails. I

22:55

know, when you said, I checked to

22:57

see if anyone messaged me that I wanna respond to, I

22:59

was like, oh, no one's been responding to me. I mean,

23:01

it takes like four or five days, but it happened. I

23:04

love it. Nicodemus is always

23:06

just lying to my DMs. He's got the

23:08

best means though. All right, so

23:10

two weeks ago, we graduated from social media

23:12

and we can always come back. I was

23:15

using this analogy earlier, Ryan, about

23:17

I have a friend in the Midwest who graduated

23:20

high school, but then he went and got,

23:22

he became a high school counselor and now

23:24

he's a counselor at the school which

23:26

he graduated from. And

23:28

so it's a completely different role. And

23:30

so I like reframing it that way,

23:32

but because today we're graduated from something

23:34

that I didn't know we would graduate

23:36

from, but you and I, Ryan, we've

23:38

been fantasizing about this for the last

23:41

two or three years at

23:43

this point. Today, the Minimists

23:45

are graduating from video podcasting.

23:49

Also, two of our beloved

23:51

friends, Professor Sean and Danny

23:53

Unknown are graduating from the

23:56

Minimalists today. We're gonna

23:58

talk about the details about all. that in a

24:01

moment. But first, Ryan, I thought

24:03

we would review some recent examples

24:05

of our own graduations. And

24:07

I think it really for us started back in 2010. And obviously

24:09

we had graduations

24:11

before this, but Nicodemus and

24:14

I both graduated from excess material

24:16

possessions and we stumbled across this

24:18

thing called minimalism and Ryan did

24:21

his packing party. That was a

24:23

celebratory moment of sorts. It was

24:25

frustrating. It wasn't perfect, but it

24:28

was a graduation from the lifestyle

24:30

that we use to live. And

24:32

then Ryan, we graduated from the

24:34

corporate world back in 2011 at

24:37

different times, but that was a graduation of

24:39

sorts. And then we continued to graduate. We

24:41

graduated from Dayton, Ohio in 2012. We moved

24:43

out to Missoula,

24:46

Montana, which we both graduated from

24:48

in 2017. We came out

24:50

to Los Angeles. But of

24:52

course, last year, Nicodemus, you graduated

24:54

from Los Angeles. Moving

24:56

to Montana, I don't say back to

24:58

Montana because it's a totally different experience

25:00

now. And folks can listen to episode 400. We

25:03

talked about that in depth. I think

25:05

it was a three or four hour

25:08

episode over on the private podcast, but

25:10

we dove deep into the reasons behind

25:12

letting go of this

25:14

version of the minimalists. I think about

25:16

my own life. Last year, my wife and

25:19

I graduated from her podcast. We had

25:21

this great show called How to Love, which

25:23

we recorded for three years

25:25

or so. And I really

25:28

enjoyed doing that, but we both got

25:30

to this spot and we talked about

25:32

it in the very last episode of

25:34

How to Love, where it felt like

25:36

it was just time like, oh, this

25:38

project is coming to an end and

25:40

we can either continue to drag it

25:42

forward or we can let it go.

25:44

And we've had employees

25:46

graduate from the minimalists over the years,

25:48

Social Jess and podcast Sean and Jordan

25:50

no more. And now Professor Sean and

25:52

Danny unknown. We're going to interview both

25:54

of them today on the private podcast

25:57

on the maximal episode and they're going

25:59

to, they're going to. talk about all of

26:01

our dirty secrets, Ryan, where all the

26:03

bodies are buried. I've

26:07

been carrying around for so long, so many bodies.

26:11

So, Ryan, I thought it was fascinating. You and I

26:13

were talking on the phone the other day about the

26:15

social media graduation, and I want to

26:18

talk to you about the sort of sneaky influence of, maybe

26:21

even the unintended consequences of

26:24

social media and also of video podcasting.

26:27

I'm not renouncing these things. I'm not,

26:29

I'm not upset that we, we, in

26:31

fact, I'm very glad that we have done

26:33

these things over the years, but it also

26:35

feels like it is time to move on

26:38

from, well, from both of

26:40

those things. Yeah. Yeah.

26:42

It's interesting. We moved out to LA. When you're kind of

26:44

reading all that stuff out, I thought we moved out to

26:46

LA to start the

26:49

video, really. And

26:51

we hired Jordan and the video was

26:53

amazing, but it was a lot of work. And

26:56

I remember us, yes, fantasizing

26:58

about getting rid of the video because

27:01

of the additional, yeah,

27:04

just the additional responsibility and

27:06

everything that comes with that. And

27:08

it was funny because when we would have

27:11

these conversations, I just remember always saying and

27:13

coming to the conclusion, us always saying and

27:15

coming to the conclusion of, you know

27:18

what? We're reaching way more people and

27:20

we were, and we are, we

27:22

are, you know, really

27:24

adding value, adding a

27:26

lot of meaning to a lot more people's lives with the

27:28

video. And we kept doing that. And

27:30

I think at a certain

27:33

point, man, you know, with all that

27:35

extra responsibility and having to build a

27:37

bigger team, it's like, yes,

27:40

we are willing to do

27:42

as much as we can for free for everyone

27:44

who, who reads our, reads

27:47

us or listens to us or watches us or whatever.

27:50

But at what cost, you know, and it

27:52

makes me think about recently how I talk about the men's work

27:54

a lot. And I had to walk away from it. And

27:57

that's because I am really up. against

28:00

the wall with what I want to do with my time. And

28:03

I found a way that I could

28:05

stay with the men's team. And

28:07

when I really started thinking about it, I'm like,

28:10

you know what? I'm not willing to

28:12

do it. I'm just not willing to put that effort in. For

28:15

what I'm going to get out of it, it's

28:17

not something that I'm willing to do. And I

28:19

have given so much to that organization, I didn't

28:21

feel like I was walking away and leaving anybody

28:23

hanging. So the

28:26

question for me, like when it is

28:28

to walk away, it's knowing when

28:30

to walk away. And that's what I

28:32

really appreciate about where everything's at right now, Milburn. It's

28:34

not about how do you not give up or don't

28:37

give up and look for reasons to not give up.

28:39

It's like, you know, sometimes you

28:41

do got to give up and it's okay. You

28:44

just got to know when to give up. Yeah.

28:46

And I even reframe that as like, no when

28:48

to let go. So I don't get dragged. There's

28:50

a period of time where it makes sense for

28:52

us to hold on to these things. However,

28:55

I will say there's been this little devil on

28:57

my shoulder recently who popped up and

29:00

there's all these really fascinating like I

29:02

call it the traps of identity, right?

29:05

And sometimes our identity gets tied up in these things

29:07

we don't even realize. Like for you,

29:09

you're just talking about the men's group

29:11

or the men's team that you were

29:13

on and we don't realize our identity

29:15

becomes part of that. And for me,

29:17

even something as simple as like, Oh,

29:19

what are you going down to LA

29:21

for this week? Oh, I've got to

29:23

film some stuff on Tuesday. Well, now

29:25

I can't say that anymore. We're not

29:27

filming the podcast. But the truth is

29:29

the minimalist podcast has always been primarily

29:31

an audio experience. In fact, 80 to

29:34

90% of our

29:36

audience still listens to the audio

29:39

version of the show.

29:42

This is just us matching

29:44

our actions with our values

29:47

in many ways. Although

29:49

that devil on my shoulder just recently I ran into someone

29:51

at a coffee shop up in Ojai and he walks up

29:53

to me first thing he says, I

29:56

watch your podcast all the time. I'm like

30:00

Oh, wait, wait, we're getting ready to the

30:02

video version next week. I didn't want to say that

30:04

to him, but No one

30:06

ever says that to me people come to me all

30:08

the time say I listen to your podcast I'll you

30:10

on Netflix or watch your movie Whatever,

30:13

but just recently within the last couple

30:15

weeks all of these little creepy bits

30:17

of identity Have

30:19

crept into the picture and who am

30:21

I if I don't have the video

30:23

version of the podcast? Who am I

30:26

if I don't have social media? Who

30:28

am I if? blank

30:31

and These are all just

30:33

the thin skin of identity and we adorn

30:35

ourselves with them But all I have to

30:37

do is look back and say Ryan six

30:40

years ago We had a great podcast that

30:42

reached just as many people as this one

30:44

does now Without a

30:46

video version without sharing all of these

30:48

clips on social media And

30:50

so in a way I wanted to walk

30:52

away from social media when we were literally

30:55

at our peak last year We

30:57

had 200 million views. We

31:00

reached half a billion people

31:03

4 million followers on social media. It's not

31:05

like this is some failed experiment. We're like,

31:07

oh The girl doesn't like me

31:09

anymore. I might as well Renounce it.

31:11

No, it was like oh Can

31:14

I actually practice what I preach?

31:16

Can I say I'm willing to

31:18

try to let go of anything? Even

31:21

the so-called things at which we are

31:23

successful TK any thoughts on that? Yeah,

31:27

I think there are I don't

31:29

think there are many people out there who are saying to

31:31

themselves I Really want to

31:33

be on social media, and I just don't know

31:35

how But

31:39

I do believe there are a lot of people

31:41

who are saying to themselves I Would

31:43

really love to take a break from social media, and

31:45

I just don't know how And

31:49

I think that speaks to a Very

31:52

common plight of our times There's

31:54

a difference between a story we can tell about

31:56

the value that something has if you buy this

31:58

car it can help you to that place

32:01

faster. If you buy

32:03

this watch, it'll last forever. And

32:05

stories that are fear mongering on the

32:08

other hand, stories about how much of

32:10

a loser you will be if you

32:12

don't have this. So in

32:14

addition to if you buy this car, you'll get

32:16

there faster. And if you don't have that car,

32:19

you won't get there at all. In fact,

32:21

you're going to miss out on your destiny

32:23

entirely. If you don't have this watch, you

32:25

won't fit in with all the important people

32:27

who have that watch, and you might not

32:29

get the promotion. And we make so many

32:31

decisions from a place

32:33

of buying into stories that

32:36

are propagated through fear mongering

32:38

tactics that are very profitable

32:41

for people who want to sell us these things.

32:43

And it can be important to step back

32:46

and say, well, wait a minute, what's, what's

32:48

the life that reflects me and the rhythm that

32:50

I want to have and the energy that I

32:52

want to flow? Is this

32:54

something that I'm that's still the hell yes

32:57

for me? Or is it something I'm just

32:59

afraid to say no to because I think

33:01

I'll disappear without it, right? And

33:03

I think for us, with social media,

33:05

it's a matter of really

33:08

falling in love with the simplicity

33:11

of taking a break from the social media and

33:13

taking a break from the video. It

33:16

feels like a, what's the

33:19

movie title Waiting to Excel? It feels

33:21

like an exhale like, there's

33:23

so much time and energy that goes into

33:25

that. And that's perfectly all

33:28

right. For someone else. That's

33:30

perfectly all right. For someone who enjoys

33:32

spending that time and energy to

33:35

let it go and say, well, let's go

33:37

back to our roots. When this was just

33:39

an audio, and let's simplify and

33:41

let's see how that feels. And sometimes

33:43

you got to give your audience permission

33:46

and freedom to evolve with you. And that

33:48

might mean they can go with you to

33:50

the new places you want to go. Or

33:52

they may say, Hey, man, I respect your

33:55

right to go in that direction, but you

33:57

are no longer for me. And that is

33:59

okay. too. Both sides can make

34:01

room for that without renouncing each other, but

34:03

it's so important to be able to hold

34:05

space for that as well. TK,

34:09

what I love about that is,

34:12

you know, when you said,

34:14

I'm going to go here and

34:16

people want to follow, like they will come

34:18

with me. And

34:20

what really stands out for me is all

34:23

that matters is that

34:25

you are where you want to be. And 100%, I think

34:28

that if you were genuinely in

34:31

a spot where you want to be, and you're

34:33

creating some amazing works, like people will follow and

34:35

new people will follow. So

34:38

yeah, man, I love that man. Right.

34:40

I haven't been this at peace in

34:42

a long time. And you know me,

34:44

I avoid chasing excitement, but excitement can

34:47

be a nice byproduct of what you're

34:49

moving on to or a byproduct of

34:51

moving on itself. And I

34:54

love what you just said there, right?

34:56

Because this is exactly where we are

34:59

supposed to be. Not supposed to be

35:01

because someone else says you should do

35:03

this, but this is what feels right,

35:05

right now. Because, yes, when

35:07

Danny called me a month

35:10

or so ago, and he was like, Hey, I think I'm ready

35:12

to graduate from the minimalist. In fact, from

35:14

early on, I've told him like, Hey, there will

35:16

be a time where it will be time for

35:18

you to move on. It might be a year

35:20

from now, it could be five years from now.

35:22

And now he's three years in. And it's like,

35:25

okay, it's time for me to graduate. I

35:27

got a similar call from Professor Sean. And

35:29

it doesn't mean that they're renouncing the work

35:31

that they've done, they're ready to move on

35:33

to something else. And what could I do?

35:35

I could say, well, let me talk you

35:37

into this. Can I pay you better? Can

35:39

I change your skills? Whatever it is, right?

35:42

But no, that is robbing

35:44

someone of the dignity of letting go

35:46

and forcing them. I remember when I

35:49

first left the corporate world, Ryan, you'll

35:51

remember this, I turned in my notice,

35:53

no, several months notice, but my boss said,

35:56

No, I'm not going to let

35:58

you quit. And it was one of the most most

36:00

terrifying moments of my life. Because

36:03

at first, just the thought in my head, for probably less

36:05

than a second, but the thought in my head

36:07

was, oh, I didn't know he could

36:10

stop me. Uh-oh. I

36:12

guess I'm stuck here was

36:15

the embodiment. That's what I felt in

36:18

the pure dread and despair

36:20

just in that moment of,

36:22

oh, I'm not allowed to

36:24

let go of this. And

36:26

so I've always been the opposite. Anyone we work with is

36:29

encouraging them to let go even of

36:31

us because why? A, we're going to

36:34

get better work from them anyway while

36:36

we're working together because they feel that

36:38

freedom. But also, I

36:41

don't want to imprison anyone. I

36:43

want to give them the freedom so that when they

36:45

move on, they can move on. And

36:48

so this isn't about just Danny moving on. It

36:50

was a really great coincidence where it was like,

36:52

hey, Danny does all the video stuff that we

36:54

do. We live in Los Angeles.

36:56

We can go find, you can throw a

36:58

rock and find a dozen people who can

37:00

film the podcast, right? They may not have

37:03

the same skill or talent that Danny does.

37:06

They definitely don't have the heart that Danny does.

37:08

You hear that, Danny? Danny, we could replace you

37:10

just by throwing a rock. Danny,

37:12

irreplaceable. TK

37:15

just threw a rock at him in the studio. No,

37:17

no, no. What I love about

37:19

Danny is the same thing I love about Matt D'Ivoire. It's

37:22

just like we get some amazing people who

37:25

really connect with what we're doing. And

37:27

they're very talented in what they do, specifically

37:30

video with Danny. And I

37:32

knew from the second podcast he put out, I'm like,

37:34

oh, this kid is not going to be with us

37:36

for more than two or three years. I knew it.

37:39

Yeah, I mean, it's a natural progression.

37:42

And whether the timing was when he was

37:45

planning on it or not, it's like Danny

37:48

is really talented. So that's my way of making

37:50

up for saying we could replace you by throwing

37:52

a rock. And

37:54

then, of course, with Professor Sean, he's been running

37:57

our social media since social just

37:59

left. The ironic part about this

38:01

is we removed like 70% of

38:03

what we were doing on social media, and

38:05

then we had our best year.

38:07

We simplified, simplified, simplified, and

38:10

yet we continued to reach more people.

38:12

But you said something really profound, TK,

38:14

on the Cal Newport episode from two

38:16

weeks ago. You were talking

38:19

about how instead of trying

38:21

to reach more people, how do we

38:23

go deeper with what we're creating here

38:25

on the podcast? Yeah,

38:27

there are essentially two models of growth.

38:29

You can think about growth horizontally, or

38:31

you can think about it vertically. Horizontal

38:34

growth is when you cast as wide of

38:36

a net as possible. Last year

38:38

we reached 10,000 people, next year we're going to

38:40

reach 30,000. And

38:42

then you achieve that, it's like, well now we're going for 100,000 in

38:45

that 1 million, then we're going to take over

38:47

the whole planet. Okay, so just at

38:49

what point will you be able to say,

38:51

hey, y'all, we did it. We

38:53

did it. Let's high five. We

38:56

did it. Vertical growth is when you drill deeply and you

38:58

say, hey, I've got a group

39:00

of eight kids that I'm working with, and I don't

39:02

need this to be 80 kids. And

39:04

I don't feel like we're adding 10 new kids

39:06

every month in order to think that this

39:08

is growing. I know that it's

39:11

growing because I'm pouring my soul into

39:13

my work. I'm serving them with as

39:15

much heart as possible. And I'm watching

39:17

the progress that they are making along

39:19

their path. And I think vertical growth,

39:21

the art of drilling deeply, the art

39:23

of staying where you are planted, watering

39:26

what you have planted, cultivating the garden

39:29

that you have invested in. That's

39:31

a very lost art. And

39:34

the algorithm chasing world of

39:36

influencer culture does not incentivize

39:38

us to prioritize vertical growth.

39:41

In fact, it lures

39:43

us into a trap of dismissing vertical

39:45

growth as a form of failure, as

39:47

a form of stagnancy. And then you

39:49

get these ideas of, if you're not

39:51

growing, you're failing. And what they mean

39:53

is, if you're not growing horizontally, you're

39:55

at risk of not mattering. But I

39:57

like vertical growth because that question has always

39:59

been. How might my life be more

40:01

with less and what did Cal Newport say when

40:04

he was on this show? He says do

40:06

fewer things with more

40:08

heart with more passion with more

40:11

focus with more intensity and so What

40:14

I'm interested in is not this one thing

40:16

we've been waiting to do forever that we're

40:18

now going to go do I'm interested in

40:20

the unknown unknowns the things that we don't

40:22

know we're going to be working on because

40:24

we are so new to this freed up

40:26

energy and Now we'll have the opportunity explore

40:28

some new possibility and see what comes out

40:31

of that Yeah,

40:33

right. That's always been the spirit of what

40:35

we've done as We've

40:38

embraced those unknown unknowns. It's

40:40

like hey, we'll put a book out. I guess

40:42

see what happens I don't really know. Let's

40:45

try this tour thing. We didn't even call it

40:47

touring at first So it's just let's do these

40:49

meetups and we did 33 of them across the

40:51

country and the message started getting out there to

40:54

more And more people we didn't really use social

40:56

media much back then we certainly didn't have it

40:58

a video version of the podcast because we didn't

41:00

Even have a podcast and we didn't have Netflix

41:02

films or whatever. There were so many Unknown

41:05

unknowns and this is sort of opening

41:07

that up in a different way Ryan

41:10

you and I never tried to become famous

41:12

with this whole thing But I

41:14

found that as soon as we did

41:16

we became pseudo famous on Netflix and

41:19

then we did You

41:24

know, I found I was looking for different

41:26

ways to hold on to it and

41:28

this thing I never even asked for it It's kind of like

41:31

you see it all the time with your old

41:33

people who try to continue to look young but

41:36

to me the the better analogy is like

41:40

building a Fence around

41:42

a mansion that you inherited that you

41:44

didn't even want Someone

41:46

gave you this this mansion and now you're

41:48

like building. I've got to protect this mansion

41:50

that I don't really want and I

41:53

don't want to do that. And to me that's

41:55

the the sneaky influence and and and some of

41:57

the consequences of social media

42:00

media and by proxy, I guess the

42:02

video piece of it as well. There

42:04

could be small things like the vanity

42:06

metrics and oh, what TK was talking

42:08

about reaching the broadest possible audience were

42:10

successful if we reached 200 million views

42:13

in a year. It's like, okay, but

42:15

what did that actually do for you?

42:17

Right? It gave me this, this

42:19

feel good feeling in my body for

42:21

a moment. Oh yeah, I can say

42:24

I did that or whatever, but is

42:26

it just a vanity metric? And then

42:28

also like even the stress around

42:31

the demands of daily

42:33

posting on social media,

42:35

right? It becomes like, oh,

42:37

this thing we got to do now we

42:39

forced ourselves into a spot where it's something

42:41

that we have to do. We've created this

42:43

obligatory thing. No one told us we had

42:46

to do it. We're telling ourselves that we

42:48

have to do it. And I've also noticed

42:50

the sort of tug of social media that

42:52

changes the way that we create on the

42:54

podcast. I've certainly found myself saying, okay, how

42:56

can I make this rant that I'm about

42:59

to go on less than 60

43:01

seconds so that Danny can tick tock

43:03

it, right? Whereas, and sometimes

43:05

that makes a whole lot of sense

43:07

to have a pithy rant, but other

43:09

times like, no, that could be much

43:12

more expansive, much more deep of a

43:14

conversation if we're willing to let go

43:16

of the algorithm, so to speak, which

43:18

also means letting go of some of

43:20

the titling and the

43:22

way things are done. I've always

43:24

hated click bait titles. And

43:27

while I don't think we've ever participated

43:29

directly in click bait titles, I could

43:31

see the progression going that way is, Oh,

43:33

this one will perform better than that

43:36

one. But Ryan, you remember

43:38

when we started the podcast, it was

43:40

always one or two word titles for

43:42

the episode because we didn't need more

43:44

people to click on it. We wanted

43:47

to simplify. And that's what I think

43:49

ultimately is what we're doing today. It's

43:52

funny how you start doing something and

43:55

the doing evolves. And

43:57

The reason why you're doing it is. They'll

44:00

they're very valid. But. It

44:02

is a ball still point where. Yeah,

44:04

it's funny how you did catalyst know

44:06

us off of a my damn it

44:08

really was at that point on. But

44:11

the beautiful Thing Milburn, Tj Mallaig, Danny

44:13

Mallory, everybody else like we can all

44:15

come back to, This is enough forever.

44:17

Necessarily it's not as lake like just

44:19

said. Like assuming these things and denouncing

44:21

them and saying social media is now

44:23

bad and video is now bad. Milburn

44:25

I really want to talk about our

44:27

conversation the other day. And

44:29

the two things that came up for you. On

44:32

that, you're going to focus on trying to cut off

44:34

butter. and and yeah, mother, a lot of. Yet

44:37

so Melbourne. And. I

44:39

are talking. And. He

44:41

says to me, you know. Ah,

44:45

I'm going to be of an Ohio are more

44:47

you know, seven way from on and we have

44:49

a lot more time and I'm really gonna focus

44:51

on. The. Things that I consume the

44:53

most. And. I'm like a

44:55

first. I'm like oh we're his or another coffee shop.

45:02

But I loved his answer. He. Said

45:04

our books and podcasts. Audio

45:07

podcast specifically. In. The

45:10

do something really beautiful about that melbourne in the

45:12

sense that. You.

45:14

Have would you do anything? Man, I mean

45:16

be proven that me time and time again.

45:19

But I'm for you to

45:21

do. Strictly. The sayings

45:23

that you love to consume the most. There's

45:25

something really beautiful about that man, And I

45:27

am. I'm really looking forward to. Seeing.

45:31

All. The stuff that you produce man said I'm looking

45:33

for to see in the celebrities. I

45:37

am too which by the way you

45:39

can you can check out of Ryan

45:41

Nicotine is.com you son of for his

45:43

monthly mentoring and newsletter. Their Smell Dirt

45:45

road As be honest. There. About

45:48

every six weeks for me to be honest right

45:50

now. Save

45:53

We know that the monthly. yeah

45:55

i know you know it's interesting i left

45:57

the men's work because my writing process is

45:59

taking too long. I mean, I'm at a point now

46:01

where it's like the deadline doesn't really matter to

46:03

me in the sense that I know I'm going to get

46:05

it done and when I do, it's going to be good.

46:08

And when it hits somebody's inbox on their end, if I'm

46:10

in their seat, I'm like, oh,

46:12

Ryan sent me something awesome. So like that's kind

46:14

of the context I hold. But yeah, I left

46:16

the men's work because I needed to shorten that

46:18

process and focus on them more and it's going

46:20

great. But yeah, thanks. Thanks for plugging me Ryan

46:22

at kadimas.com. I want

46:24

to talk about two more things that we've

46:26

graduated from and I saved them

46:28

both for the end. TK, you recently

46:31

graduated from a 10 year experience with

46:33

fee and I was hoping maybe you

46:36

could open up a bit about that

46:38

on this episode. Yeah, man. Fee

46:40

stands for the Foundation for Economic

46:42

Education. And I've been the education

46:44

director there for at least the

46:46

past handful of years. And

46:49

the project that I founded is called the revolution

46:51

of one. And the

46:53

inspiration for the project was

46:55

helping people to think about

46:57

societal change as something that

46:59

begins with everyday ordinary individuals

47:02

and to expand our horizons

47:04

beyond thinking about how things

47:06

get done solely in terms

47:08

of powerful, famous, really wealthy authority figures.

47:11

Do we want to do all that

47:13

we can to get those people on

47:15

the side of what is good? Yes,

47:17

by all means. But agency begins with

47:20

looking within and saying, how can

47:22

I improve my life and how can I create

47:24

value for the people that are around me? And

47:27

one of the big core

47:30

values of my message was going into

47:33

schools, particularly places that didn't identify with

47:35

the so-called liberty bubble that fee is

47:37

a part of and that identifies with

47:40

and going into schools and not starting

47:42

the conversation or even caring about the

47:45

political dimension of who you are voting for

47:47

and which politicians you like. But focusing on

47:49

the individuals in front of me and saying,

47:52

how can we be the leaders that

47:54

the world needs? Because leadership doesn't begin

47:56

with the position, it begins with the

47:58

disposition and the right disposition of

48:00

leadership is something that we can all

48:03

cultivate. And teachers, students, everyone really opened

48:05

their hearts to these ideas. And we

48:07

had a lot of growth and we

48:09

did really fantastic, but there were some

48:13

questions about whether or not Revolution

48:15

of One was a right fit

48:17

for the organizational vision and direction

48:19

that fee wanted to go in.

48:21

And so the support for the

48:23

project was pulled. And hey,

48:25

man, that's not slander. Like this is I'm

48:27

trying to say it in like the most

48:29

neutral objective way I can't. That's just like

48:31

the factual reality fee decided

48:33

that, Hey, this project and what you

48:36

guys are doing, you're getting the numbers

48:39

and people are praising it and you're getting great

48:41

feedback. But this just isn't something that

48:43

we want to invest in. It's not where we

48:45

want to go. And so that

48:47

happened pretty fast and we

48:49

didn't really see it coming. And so at

48:52

the end of February, the Rev One team

48:54

was gone and my

48:57

role came to an end as well. The option

48:59

was put on the table like, Hey,

49:02

you can still work as an independent contractor and do

49:04

some work in schools and so on. But

49:07

my role was definitely coming to an end and I

49:10

thought about it and I said, you know

49:12

what, I'm going to accept this as a blessing in disguise. I'm

49:14

going to move on and I'm going to continue

49:16

pursuing my life mission of which

49:18

my work was a mere partial

49:21

manifestation outside of that familiar

49:23

context. And so, man,

49:25

it was jarring

49:28

and it was unanticipated, but at

49:30

the same time it's liberating because something that

49:33

happened in the first week is

49:35

I had a bunch of phone calls with other

49:37

people that had done work in the

49:39

nonprofit space who really valued what I

49:41

was doing and wanted to talk

49:43

about ways that we can work together and continue that

49:45

work that I was doing at fee. And

49:48

I was getting ready to just sort

49:50

of dive right back in doing the same

49:52

types of things with the same types of people

49:54

and so on. And I said, wait a

49:56

minute, what are you doing, man? What are

49:58

you doing? You're pursuing. continuity. You're

50:01

pursuing stability. This

50:03

is an opportunity. Step back

50:05

for a second, hit the pause button. Don't

50:07

just dive into something right away.

50:09

You've received a valuable gift, a chance to

50:12

contemplate, a chance to reconsider, recontextualize, question your

50:14

assumptions about how you want to work, with

50:16

whom do you want to work, how do

50:18

you want to go about serving the people

50:20

that you want to serve in perhaps new

50:22

and ever more creative ways. And so I'm

50:24

in this liminal space now as one of

50:27

my mentors describes it where I'm not

50:30

rushing into the next thing. I'm not diving

50:32

into anything. I'm taking my

50:34

time and I'm prioritizing

50:38

approaching the next step in

50:41

a way that accords with my values, my

50:43

sense of purpose, my highest excitement and so

50:45

on. And what I love about

50:47

that is you turn to death because I

50:49

remember talking to you early on and this

50:51

thing felt like a death. Yeah. Yeah. You

50:53

turn that death into a graduation and

50:56

you didn't allow that sense of loss

50:59

and that sense of grief,

51:01

the shock, the denial that

51:04

you were in, the chaos that was foisted

51:07

onto you, the fear, the

51:10

incompleteness that you felt from that like, oh,

51:12

this isn't finished. Yeah. And so what'd you

51:14

try to do? You tried to go out

51:16

and I need this continuity here to finish

51:18

it as opposed to, you know, it's time

51:20

for me to graduate. This is the

51:22

opportunity to graduate. And we've got

51:24

one more graduation if

51:27

you've got to watch the video version of this, this

51:29

is the last video episode of the podcast. Go

51:31

ahead and head on over to YouTube

51:34

or Patreon, check out the video version

51:36

because most important, we buried the lead

51:38

for this episode. Ryan Nicodemus graduated

51:41

from his long hair. That's

51:44

right. I

51:47

said goodbye to that long hair. Oh

51:50

man. You look so much younger. I

51:53

mean, I'm ready to cast you in a movie

51:55

that I'm not filming yet. I love

51:58

it. I love it. Oh man,

52:00

no, I cut it off. I

52:02

just got a little intuition. Like a

52:05

month, two, three ago, I'm like, kept looking at

52:08

my hair and I'm like chewing on it when

52:10

I'm eating and conditioning it and drying it and

52:12

like all this long hair problems. And

52:14

I'm like, it's gonna go soon. Like I just,

52:17

I know it's gonna go soon. And my mom

52:19

was out in November and she said

52:21

to me, son, you're

52:23

a handsome man. I said, thanks mom. You know,

52:25

coming from your mom doesn't mean much. I

52:28

mean, I'm just kidding mom. I

52:31

will jump through this computer. I

52:33

was asking about earlier. Well,

52:38

I mean, at least I have a mom. Anyway, so. Okay,

52:44

hold on. Ryan, Ryan, earlier that I swear

52:47

to you before we started this show,

52:49

I said, Josh, have

52:51

you ever seen Ryan get really, really,

52:53

really ticked off? Like I'm gonna punch

52:56

this, you know, like that kind of,

52:59

Josh was like, no, never seen it. I was

53:01

like, I can't even imagine it. And then you

53:03

literally do that this episode. Because,

53:08

okay, when I do, you know, I

53:12

make it very intentional. No,

53:14

my mom says to me, son, you are a

53:16

handsome man. I'm

53:22

so proud of you. You

53:24

looked way better with a

53:26

corporate Ryan, look,

53:29

and I'm like, okay, thanks. She's like, but

53:31

seriously, like way more handsome with the corporate

53:34

Ryan look. And so she kind of

53:36

triggered that thought in me, of

53:38

course. And then all the comments on every Instagram post

53:40

of my hair where people are like, whatever, you know,

53:42

they give me a hard time about my long hair.

53:46

So, but with my mom, I was

53:48

like, you know, maybe

53:50

I can do this for her or something, you know, like just, because I

53:53

want to cut it anyway. I was kind of looking for a reason to

53:55

cut it. And then I went to New York in February, and

53:58

my OMA said the same. exact thing

54:00

to me. And I'm like, it's coming

54:02

off. So I came back to Montana at like

54:04

a day or two after Valentine's Day.

54:06

And yeah, I cut it all off, man. I was afraid

54:08

my, the man

54:11

who cuts my hair, I was afraid I was going

54:13

to walk in there and be like, Hey, man, I need

54:15

to cut it all off. And I was afraid,

54:17

Milburn, that he was going to tell me what our

54:20

boss told you when you tried to

54:22

fire yourself, man. Like, no, no, you can't

54:24

cut your hair off. I won't

54:26

cut it off, dude. But

54:29

no, he was like, he was super pumped. And yeah, I

54:31

love it, man. And like the, you know,

54:33

all the little long hair problems I mentioned earlier, those

54:35

are the ones that stood out. But like, there

54:37

are just so many others that like, I'm like,

54:40

why did I not do this so much sooner?

54:42

You know, identity, right? I love it.

54:45

It's that travel identity that, that, okay,

54:47

this is who I am. I am

54:49

my clothes or I am my car

54:51

or I am my hairstyle. You

54:54

know, what's interesting, man, is when I first started looking

54:56

in the mirror with the short hair, I didn't recognize

54:58

that man. And I felt

55:00

myself adapting. And I resisted, dude.

55:03

I tried to look at a stranger as much

55:05

as I could. And now I just, you know,

55:07

now I'm looking at my, you know, screen now

55:09

and I know exactly who that, who that man

55:11

is. But for a week or two, it was

55:13

nice, like, seeing a stranger in the mirror, you

55:15

know, because the identity piece of it

55:17

was big for me. And, you

55:20

know, I told you this, Milburn, I think I said it,

55:22

I'm one of the private fans. But like,

55:25

the biggest hurdle for me to get over cutting

55:27

my hair was like

55:29

two days before that, someone

55:32

had commented on my hair on a post and was like,

55:34

cut your hair hippie, you know, something like that. And

55:37

I'm like, if I cut my hair,

55:39

they're gonna think it was because of them. And I

55:41

went, then thinking it was because of them.

55:45

So then my brain starts going, okay,

55:47

how long should I wait until they

55:49

don't think it was them? And

55:51

as soon as I started to go down that road, I'm like, dude, just

55:53

cut your hair. And but

55:56

there was this identity thing of like, you

55:58

know, I am mean. Don't

56:00

think I did something because because you

56:02

talked me into it And

56:04

then yeah, not to mention like walking out

56:07

of that salon was like it's so weird

56:09

like I'm looking in the windows

56:11

as I'm like walking down the sidewalk and Yeah,

56:14

man. It was it was really it was I felt embarrassed.

56:16

It was really weird By the way

56:18

that person who wrote that comment won't even notice Don't

56:21

don't move on to the next thing get rid of those stupid You

56:27

know You know what's the

56:29

hardest thing to get over all the profile pics that I haven't

56:31

updated yet that I have to update Oh

56:35

my god, it's like that's like four pictures You

56:40

look great Nicodemus, thank you for joining us

56:42

today since we're no longer on social media

56:44

here You can make sure you sign up

56:46

for our email list over at the minimalist

56:49

email so we can stay connected with

56:51

you I'm really excited for this next

56:53

chapter. I feel at peace. I

56:56

think the audio podcast not I don't

56:58

think I know I am certain that

57:00

this new version of the podcast will

57:03

radically improve the experience for our listeners

57:05

for our audience And

57:07

including expanded roles for TK and

57:09

Malabama and of course post-production Peter

57:11

we haven't mentioned him yet He's

57:14

always lingering in the ether the

57:16

reason our podcast sounds so outstanding

57:18

and we can move into this

57:20

audio Adventure with our audience together.

57:22

We have the best sounding podcast Not

57:24

because of me and TK's booming voice

57:26

and Ryan calling in it has to

57:29

do with post-production Peter

57:31

thank you so much for all that you

57:33

do we'll be back on the private podcast

57:35

with professor Sean and Danny unknown Nicodemus,

57:38

I love you No, I

57:40

love you too man jinx Malabama

57:43

what else you got for us? Here's a minimalist

57:45

insight from one of our listeners Hey

57:49

guys, my name is Elizabeth Ellis, I'm

57:52

in Houston, Texas and I

57:54

just wanted to say that your episode 426

57:58

breaking free from broke spoke

58:00

to me. I have

58:02

struggled with tipping ever since I

58:04

came back to the US at

58:08

the end of 2021 after

58:10

living abroad in Hong Kong for

58:12

five years. And I

58:14

had a huge reverse culture shock in

58:17

Hong Kong. Tips are built

58:20

right into whatever

58:23

you're buying. So they account for

58:25

that when they priced out items

58:27

at a restaurant or a cafe.

58:29

And so you basically never need

58:31

to tip. And I just

58:34

got into the habit of just paying

58:36

what's on the bill and

58:39

not worrying about it. Now, for

58:41

specialty services like a massage or

58:43

something like that, or a pedicure, I

58:46

would often add a little extra tip

58:48

in because I know

58:50

that that was not the case for those

58:53

kind of luxury services. But

58:56

I thought your take and George

58:59

Campbell's take on how

59:01

to tip appropriately has really

59:03

helped me. I came

59:06

back to an economy

59:08

where suddenly the norm

59:10

had jumped from 15% for a baseline tip to

59:12

18 and 20%. And I just

59:14

was not prepared for

59:20

that. I understand people

59:23

need to make a living and everything. But boy,

59:25

how do you have things changed since

59:28

I was living abroad.

59:31

So I just feel like I have a

59:34

lot more confidence now about

59:36

when to tip higher and

59:38

when not to tip higher. And I really

59:40

have to thank you guys for that. So keep

59:42

doing all the great work you're doing. And

59:46

I will keep listening. And I really appreciate

59:48

everything you do. who

1:00:00

has a list or tip or an insight about

1:00:02

this episode or any other episode, leave

1:00:05

a comment on Patreon or YouTube or

1:00:07

better yet send a voice memo

1:00:10

to podcast at theminimalists.com so we

1:00:12

can feature your voice on the

1:00:14

show. By the way we're gonna

1:00:16

keep posting the audio version of

1:00:18

this podcast on YouTube as well

1:00:20

so folks can still listen to

1:00:22

the podcast on YouTube if they'd

1:00:24

like. You can listen wherever you

1:00:26

like. Apple Podcasts, Spotify, etc. It's

1:00:28

still available to you. Alright that's the

1:00:31

first 25% of episode 437. We'll see you on

1:00:37

Patreon for the full two-hour maximal

1:00:39

edition which features interviews with

1:00:42

a couple of minimalist

1:00:44

graduates. We've got Danny

1:00:46

unknown and Professor Sean they'll be joining

1:00:48

us and spilling

1:00:50

the beans so to speak. We'll

1:00:53

also answer a bunch more of your questions

1:00:55

like what's the right amount of financial support

1:00:58

to give to my adult son or daughter

1:01:01

and I was forced into minimalism

1:01:03

after my home burned down. What should

1:01:05

I do now? Plus we've got a

1:01:07

million other questions and simple living segments

1:01:10

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our minimal episode for today. If

1:01:47

you leave here with just one message, let

1:01:49

it be this. Love

1:01:51

people and use things because

1:01:55

the opposite never works.

1:01:58

Thanks for listening y'all. next time. Peace.