0:01

Every

0:11

little thing you think

0:14

that you need Every

0:25

little thing you think that

0:27

you need Every

0:30

little thing that's just feeding

0:32

your greed Oh, I bet

0:34

that you'll be fine without

0:36

it You're

0:39

listening to the Minimalist Podcast with Joshua

0:42

Fields Milburn and T.K. Coleman Thank

0:44

you, Malabama. Hello, everybody. Coming up on

0:46

this free public minimal episode, a caller

0:48

has a question about the chaos in

0:51

her life that is caused by other

0:53

people. And then we've got a lightning

0:55

round question about the different ways that

0:57

you make your own life more

1:00

chaotic. That's followed by our right here,

1:02

right now segment and an outstanding, a

1:05

truly outstanding listener tip for you. You

1:07

can check out the full maximal edition of episode

1:10

449. That's the full

1:12

episode where we answer five times

1:14

the questions and we dive deep

1:17

into several simple living segments. That

1:19

private podcast episode is out right

1:21

now at patreon.com/The Minimalists. Your support

1:23

keeps our podcast 100% advertisement free

1:26

because say it with me, yo.

1:31

Advertisements suck. Let's

1:33

start with our callers. If you have a question or a

1:35

comment for our show, we'd love to hear from you. Give us

1:37

a call. Our phone number is 406-219-7839 or

1:42

email a voice recording right

1:44

from your phone to podcast

1:47

at theminimalists.com. Our first

1:49

question today is from Marta. Hi,

1:51

all. I'm Marta, Patreon subscriber

1:54

from Portugal but living in the

1:56

UK. I've been raising my

1:58

sister for many years. I was very

2:00

young when she moved in with me. She was only

2:02

12, she was also very young. My

2:05

parents are lovely human beings and lovely

2:07

parents, but their marriage can be very

2:10

toxic for us as kids. So

2:13

my finances were always towards making

2:15

sure I could provide my sister

2:17

with the best. And

2:20

recently she turned 18, which is

2:22

the legal age here, and she decided

2:24

she wanted to go to Portugal, live

2:26

with some friends, although she didn't have

2:28

any plan or strategy, we

2:30

couldn't do anything to stop her

2:33

from going. After

2:35

some days, I realized that she was using

2:37

my cards, my debit card, and

2:41

making purchases online on different

2:43

apps. So

2:45

when I spoke to her, she

2:48

didn't apologize, and she

2:50

didn't seem to understand the impact that

2:52

has on my finances. Now,

2:55

my mental health throughout the years,

2:57

I was raising her, was in

2:59

a really bad shape because my

3:02

sister has borderline and she went

3:04

through major crisis. Now

3:07

I feel that my finances were

3:09

also impacted. So I

3:11

feel sad, I feel disappointed, but

3:13

more than anything else, I'm

3:16

feeling hopeless. I love

3:18

her so much that I want to

3:20

be here for her. I

3:22

want to support her, but

3:24

I'm so, so, so afraid that I

3:27

lose myself in between. Some

3:29

people around me just tell me that I

3:31

need to let her go, not as

3:34

in not speaking to her anymore, but

3:37

stop trying to save her.

3:41

And I'm having such a hard time

3:43

doing it. Thank

3:46

you, and thank you for

3:48

the community you built around you. Marta,

3:51

my heart certainly goes out to you. I

3:54

know what it's like to deal with people who are

3:56

stealing from us, right? Because that's

3:58

what's happening. You didn't use those. We often

4:01

soften our language around things like that. She's

4:03

using my debit card. She's

4:06

using my funds. She's stealing

4:08

from you. And it's okay to call that

4:10

out. Now TK, when I hear this question,

4:12

I hear the heartache, but I

4:14

also hear a question sort of behind the question.

4:16

And that question is, how

4:19

do I handle the chaos in my life that

4:22

was caused by other people? Not

4:24

just her sister. She mentioned toxic parents

4:27

in there as well. What

4:29

answer do you have to that question? You

4:31

have to give yourself permission to introduce the order

4:34

that you already know how to introduce. When

4:37

other people create chaos in our lives,

4:39

it's especially when it's family and friends,

4:41

it's not just their ability to create

4:43

chaos. Oftentimes that ability

4:45

to create chaos is nurtured

4:47

and sustained by our own hesitancy to

4:49

establish the boundaries that we know will

4:52

bring order and structure. But

4:55

because we feel sorry for them, we feel pity

4:57

for them. We feel

4:59

guilty about not taking care of them. We

5:02

don't treat them in the way that we

5:04

would someone else. I am

5:06

sure Marta, I am sure that if this were

5:08

a complete stranger or if this

5:10

were just a coworker, you would have already nipped this in the

5:12

bud because you don't have an information

5:14

problem. You know exactly how to

5:16

handle these types of people. You don't let people

5:19

steal from you. Like you're not that kind of

5:21

person and I can hear it. But what makes

5:23

this difficult is there's that sense of, yeah, but

5:25

she's my little sister and she

5:27

needs me and I've

5:29

been looking out for her for so long and

5:31

she's my own flesh and blood and sometimes that

5:33

can make it more difficult for us to see

5:36

the truth when it comes to the people that

5:38

we love. So that's the starting point. You've

5:41

got to give yourself permission to see the truth when it comes

5:43

to the people that you love and to speak

5:45

it and to stand on it. And

5:47

she's also wondering, should I let her

5:49

go? Not as in stop

5:52

communicating with her, but should

5:54

I stop trying to save

5:56

her? Or the way I look at that is, should

5:58

I stop trying to... We

6:01

often try to save other people, but

6:03

if you want to save a fish from drowning,

6:06

you just do nothing. Because

6:08

otherwise, you could pull them out of the

6:10

water, you're going to have the opposite

6:12

effect. You might be able

6:14

to pull your sister temporarily out of

6:16

her situation or out of her suffering.

6:19

But if she's not looking for that, well,

6:22

you're going to cause a whole chain reaction

6:24

of other chaos. And

6:26

I think quite often we go

6:28

searching for chaos in our own lives.

6:30

I'm reminded of chaos

6:32

theory, which basically describes

6:34

the qualities of the

6:37

point at which stability

6:39

moves into instability. Or

6:41

order turns into disorder, or we could call

6:44

it chaos here, right? And so at some

6:46

point, you felt like taking care of your

6:48

sister, you were creating order in her life.

6:51

But there was some sort of tipping point,

6:54

whether it was her moving to Portugal, maybe

6:56

it was even before that. You

6:58

may not even be able to identify what

7:00

that tipping point was. But

7:02

then what happens is we often heap

7:04

more chaos on top of the chaos.

7:07

We often grab a shovel

7:09

to dig ourselves out of

7:12

the hole. And of course,

7:14

we know what happens. The hole widens, it

7:16

gets deeper. I've been

7:18

thinking a lot about this recently, TK, because

7:20

I have four friends who within the last

7:22

year, and some of them are still going

7:24

through it, have gone through some real chaotic

7:26

events. I have one friend who

7:29

went through a divorce. I have another friend

7:31

who went through infidelity and they have kids

7:33

together. I have

7:35

another friend who dealt with

7:38

a death of a parent recently. And

7:41

then I have someone else who lost

7:43

their job unexpectedly. And

7:45

these four different chaotic events. And

7:48

it's interesting to see how people react

7:50

differently to different types of chaos. I

7:53

found that many of us, we

7:55

heap more chaos onto it because

7:57

it adds a sense of certainty. or

8:00

comfort because I feel like I can't

8:02

do nothing. It'd be irresponsible for me

8:04

to do nothing. So now I'm gonna

8:07

go out and find other bits of

8:09

chaos to heap onto that. Do you

8:11

think that's part of the human condition?

8:14

Oh, it absolutely is, right? It reminds me

8:16

of the Bobby McFerrin song where he says,

8:19

in every life we have some trouble, but

8:22

when you worry, you make it

8:24

double, don't worry. Right? We

8:26

have a tendency to double our problems.

8:28

There's the problem, but then there's all

8:31

the resistance we create around it through

8:33

the stories that we tell, through the

8:35

unhealthy patterns of reacting and responding to

8:37

those problems. And this is one of

8:39

them. I mean, one example even in

8:42

this is the little sister refusing

8:44

to apologize and

8:46

just not seeing the seriousness of it.

8:48

Now that is a problem, but that's

8:51

something that's outside your locus of control.

8:53

There's nothing you can do to make

8:55

a person who refuses to apologize, but

8:57

what you can do is you can

8:59

focus on what you can control, which is it's my job

9:01

to speak the truth. It's

9:04

my job to let them know for the record, that is not

9:06

right. You should apologize, but

9:08

even if you don't, I'm standing firm

9:10

on the fact that what you did was wrong. And

9:13

I hope for your good as well as mine, you

9:16

come around to accepting that and taking responsibility

9:18

for it. But either way, here is a

9:20

boundary that I didn't uphold with

9:22

you in the past, but I must uphold it from now

9:24

on. You cannot receive

9:27

this degree or kind of

9:29

financial support from me. You cannot

9:31

have the access to my cards that

9:34

you once had the trust of possessing. That's

9:36

like you've lost that and it takes a

9:38

long time to earn something like that

9:40

back. And that's an example of how

9:42

you can solve a problem by saying, wait a minute,

9:44

let's identify the things I can't control.

9:47

And I don't have to pretend like those things are unimportant,

9:49

but I just have to be honest with myself about the

9:51

fact that I can't control them. And then I can put

9:54

my attention on what I can't control and

9:57

what we often find is, even

9:59

though the stuff that we do, that we can't control is bad.

10:01

It doesn't have as much power to bother

10:03

us if we're really nailing it

10:05

on the stuff that we can control. And

10:07

so it's so important to really focus on

10:09

that. And when you have a

10:12

situation like this where, man, it's just like

10:14

someone's disappointing you, you're doing them wrong, they're

10:16

doing you wrong, and you wanna save them,

10:19

you also gotta ask yourself, what am I

10:21

saving them from? I

10:23

think of saving someone as intervening

10:25

when they are in real danger

10:28

and doing something to help protect them

10:30

from harm. And they're also incapable of

10:33

doing that on their own, either because

10:35

they don't have enough information, they don't

10:37

have enough ability, but there's

10:40

this moment of, oh,

10:43

that person's not able to save

10:45

themselves, and so therefore I'm going

10:47

to intervene. Right, but what

10:49

we often do when we speak

10:51

of saving the ones we love,

10:54

we speak of rescuing them from

10:56

the discomfort of inconvenience. Oh,

10:59

I don't want that person to

11:01

experience the suffering of wanting something

11:04

really badly and not getting it.

11:06

Oh, I don't want that person

11:08

to experience the suffering of their

11:11

own choices producing undesirable effects

11:14

in their lives. Because you don't

11:16

wanna save people from truth. You

11:18

don't wanna save people from the possibility

11:21

of growing up. You don't wanna save

11:23

people from values like responsibility and integrity.

11:25

And if you intervene every time someone

11:27

you love that you're looking out for

11:30

it feels uncomfortable, what will happen is

11:32

you will save them from the lessons

11:34

they need in order to become mature.

11:36

One of the reasons why she's not

11:39

apologizing about stealing is because

11:41

she hasn't learned how serious it is

11:43

to be held accountable for stuff like

11:45

that. And you're probably doing that in

11:47

a really nice way for her. If

11:50

she did that for a job, she's

11:52

immediately terminated. And she might be blacklisted

11:54

such that she wouldn't be able to

11:56

find a job again without going way

11:58

outside of that vicinity. because people

12:00

know people and people talk to people. And

12:03

so the way you're handling things is probably as nice

12:05

as she's going to get it, right? But when you

12:07

do that kind of stuff in the real world, man,

12:10

without family, like it

12:12

comes down on you hard. And so teaching

12:14

her to think about cause and effect, teaching

12:16

her to take responsibility for her actions and

12:19

telling her the truth with courage is

12:21

one of the best things you can do to save

12:24

her future relationships because the rest of the world isn't

12:26

gonna be merciful towards her in the way that you

12:28

are. Do you think there's an

12:30

element of entitlement here as well? The reason

12:32

I ask is I had an employee that

12:34

stole from me once and it

12:37

went unnoticed for a while because it

12:39

was really small indiscretions and it almost

12:42

looked like little errors. And

12:44

then the person got more and

12:46

more blatant in their theft. And

12:49

at some point it just was obvious,

12:51

right? And when I sat that

12:54

person down to talk to them, there

12:56

was like this air of entitlement, like,

12:58

oh, well I did this because you

13:01

didn't do this as

13:04

opposed to actually coming to me and talking

13:06

about that. And it seems to me that

13:08

that might be where Marta is with her

13:10

sister. Her sister feels this sense

13:12

of entitlement. I should be able to have access

13:15

to your money or I should be able to

13:17

have access to your time or your energy or

13:19

your kindness or your love. But

13:22

maybe there's also this sentiment

13:24

of letting go is

13:26

the way to love someone. Of course

13:28

you're gonna have to let go of

13:30

the idealized version, this idealized picture you

13:32

have of your sister right now. That

13:35

version of your sister no longer exists.

13:37

What exists now is someone who's related

13:39

to you by blood, someone that you

13:41

care about, someone you've taken care of

13:43

for a long time, someone

13:45

you have an attachment to, that

13:48

person exists, but they exist

13:51

with a new truth. And that truth

13:53

is they've also been stealing from you.

13:55

They've been mistreating you. They've been disrespecting

13:57

you. And maybe even. There

14:00

is a sense of entitlement that you have

14:02

to deal with. And entitlement,

14:04

by the way, is something that we nurture.

14:06

And I don't say that in the sense

14:08

of like, hey, you should blame yourself, it's

14:10

your fault. But this is how

14:12

we come into the world. When we're

14:15

children, we do things that are

14:17

very self-centered like, hey, there's

14:20

a kid playing with the toy, I'm

14:22

just gonna go take it. Why

14:24

not? I haven't really had

14:26

anyone teach me about values yet. And

14:29

you see kids do things like this all

14:31

the time, at early stages,

14:33

and adults have to intervene, hey, we don't

14:35

do that, we don't do that. Even at

14:37

our earliest stage, our number one way of

14:40

getting what we want is we cry. And

14:42

then one of the first things we learn as

14:44

we start to mature as little children is how

14:46

to get what we want in ways

14:49

that go beyond crying. You learn how to

14:51

use words and you learn how to ask.

14:53

You learn how to go beyond crying and

14:55

hoping someone figures you out to saying, hey,

14:58

I need water, I need alone time,

15:00

I need help with this, right? And

15:02

so maturity is about learning how to

15:04

do those things that help

15:07

us cooperate with others in a way

15:09

that honors their boundaries and respects their

15:11

individual rights. And that involves consideration of

15:13

the wellbeing of everyone else involved. And

15:15

that's something that has to be taught.

15:17

So when people make it all the

15:20

way to age 20, all

15:22

the way to age 30, all the way to age 40,

15:25

as surprising as it may be, it's

15:27

often because people haven't

15:29

called them out and they haven't

15:31

really suffered consequences and what they

15:33

do actually works. People keep doing

15:35

what works for them, even if

15:37

it's wrong. And the earlier you

15:39

can show people this isn't going

15:42

to work with me, the

15:44

better off they will be as a result of

15:46

that. And the funny thing about

15:48

entitlement is I don't

15:50

think maturity is really the result of not

15:53

having any shoulds. I think maturity

15:55

is the result of being

15:57

so in tune with reality that you recognize

15:59

that. Reality just doesn't care about your shoulds.

16:02

So, hey, personally, I

16:04

feel like I should just

16:06

have money rain from the sky. I should

16:08

have people just write me a really big

16:11

check every time I say something to them

16:13

that helps them solve a problem. Hey, I

16:15

should have lots of things. I should be

16:17

more successful than that guy over there. But

16:19

you know what? No one cares but me

16:22

about that. And even if

16:24

I'm right in my shoulds, the fact of

16:26

the matter is nothing's going

16:28

to happen unless I take charge of my

16:30

reality to do something about it. I should

16:32

just be able to snap my fingers and

16:34

have a glass of water in front of

16:36

me. But as much as I feel that

16:39

way, it's not gonna happen unless I

16:41

get up and go do it. So you don't have

16:43

to argue with people about their shoulds. You don't have

16:45

to tell people that they're entitled. You don't have to

16:47

yell at people and go, oh, you just think life

16:49

should be easy. Leave that alone. Just

16:51

show them reality by

16:54

not compromising what is right in order

16:56

to accommodate their should, in order to

16:58

accommodate their desire to have it easy.

17:00

What you're really describing here is you

17:02

have a list of wants and you're

17:04

treating them as though that's how the

17:06

universe should bend toward your wants, toward

17:08

your preferences, toward your desires. And when

17:10

it doesn't work that way and we

17:12

feel entitled and we may lash out

17:15

in some way. And like Marta's

17:17

sister here, Marta's sister

17:19

has become this commitment. You've committed to

17:21

raising her. And so you feel like,

17:24

oh yeah, I've got a stake in this, right? But

17:26

the thing I've learned in my own life is

17:29

every unchecked commitment eventually becomes

17:31

an obligation. And

17:33

of course, every unchecked obligation

17:35

eventually becomes a burden. And

17:38

that's where you are right now with

17:40

your sister. This thing you've committed, you've

17:42

devoted yourself to your sister. But

17:45

along with that came some expectations. Maybe

17:47

you accidentally picked up some expectations. This

17:49

is how this person should love me.

17:53

Now, of course, we don't want anyone

17:55

that we care about to steal from

17:57

us. We also don't want them to

17:59

just in the abstract or we don't

18:01

want them to. disrespect us or treat

18:03

us unjustly or unfairly, but these things

18:05

happen. And the more expectations we have

18:07

around those, the more upset we are

18:09

going to feel. And so when it

18:11

comes to your sister, yeah,

18:15

you are gonna have to let go. Now you get

18:17

to decide what that letting go looks like. I

18:19

love them from a distance, creating that

18:22

distance, and maybe they have to earn

18:24

your trust back. And so you have

18:26

some contracted boundaries now because they ruined

18:28

those old boundaries. You gave them your

18:30

trust, you gave them way more freedom

18:33

in the relationship, and they abused that.

18:36

So you can have no boundaries at all. That's

18:38

not going to work out really well for you,

18:40

right? You can have too strict of boundaries and

18:42

that can harm you as well. Or

18:44

you might just decide, you know what? I

18:47

need a break from my sister. Maybe I'm not gonna

18:49

talk to her for the next year. I'm not gonna

18:51

give her access to me because

18:53

that is the leverage that I actually

18:55

have with my sister. Once

18:57

you've cut her off of your other

18:59

resources, time and attention

19:01

is the only leverage that you

19:04

really have. The last

19:06

thing I'll say is you know what's best for you in

19:08

terms of what you need to do, but

19:10

as a matter of principle, you do not

19:12

have to cut her off completely. You

19:15

do not have to say, I'm never gonna speak

19:17

with her again. It's

19:19

important to remember- Wait, real quick, you

19:21

acknowledge that's an optional. It's

19:23

an option, not a necessity. And I don't know

19:25

enough details to know if it's a necessity. It

19:28

may be the case that it's not an option

19:30

for you, right? It's a conceivable possibility. It's

19:33

on the table and worth considering. But there

19:36

are cases where, look, it's

19:38

just gone too far and

19:41

you need to cut that person off. I think

19:43

that what we're talking about here though, at

19:46

least you're stimulating this idea in my mind, sometimes

19:49

we feel like we have to do something.

19:51

She even said, I feel like I need

19:53

to save her, to change her, right? And

19:55

so of course what happens? I'm gonna find

19:58

the seven things I need to do. I'm

20:00

gonna find the self-help book or the

20:02

blog post or the podcast that tells

20:05

me the formula to do the necessary

20:07

things. But it might be that any

20:09

level of doing at this point is

20:11

going to create more chaos. I talked

20:14

to you a moment ago about my

20:16

four friends, the one

20:18

who's going through the infidelity thing.

20:20

He's handled it by sort of

20:22

removing, by doing less in

20:25

that relationship, stepping back and realizing

20:27

this isn't something that I can

20:29

actually fix right now. I can't

20:32

do 14 different things.

20:34

In fact, that's gonna make my life

20:36

more chaotic. I know

20:38

other people who, when something

20:40

traumatic happens or something tragic

20:43

happens, they often amplify

20:45

the chaos with more chaos. I'm

20:47

going to do more. I'm going

20:49

to do better. I'm going to

20:51

do different. And there is a

20:53

time and place for doing things

20:55

differently. But sometimes

20:58

the best path forward is to

21:00

pause and do nothing

21:02

in that relationship. Yeah, I

21:04

just want to make one caveat about trust. And

21:07

that is trust is often

21:09

contextual. And it is very rarely

21:11

the case that we have absolute

21:13

trust of any person. We trust

21:15

people relative to

21:18

the competence and reliability they've

21:21

demonstrated in a particular area, right? So

21:23

there are some people, I absolutely trust

21:25

them to always be 10 minutes early.

21:28

That doesn't mean I trust them with everything else,

21:30

right? There are some people where it's like, never

21:32

trust them to be on time, right? That doesn't

21:35

mean you can't trust them at all with anything,

21:37

right? So when it comes to this situation with

21:39

your sister, right now she

21:41

simply has not earned the trust to have

21:43

access to your credit cards. She has not

21:45

earned the trust to have access to any

21:48

of your financials. At the same time, that

21:50

doesn't mean you're physically unsafe around her, at

21:52

least not all by itself. So it's quite possible

21:55

that if she calls you up and says,

21:57

hey, can I get some advice on a decision?

21:59

that I'm making, and I know you think

22:01

that's never gonna happen, but it

22:03

might happen. You can trust her

22:05

enough to sit there and talk with her for about

22:07

15 minutes about her situation. If she wants to meet

22:10

up for lunch or coffee, you

22:12

can probably trust that you're safe to

22:14

meet her up without being harmed in

22:16

any kind of way. It's just important

22:19

that when trust is broken in a

22:21

particular area, we establish boundaries in that

22:23

area to protect ourselves from those actions

22:27

that this person has a reputation for

22:29

taking, but to be open to

22:31

those other areas where they have been reliable,

22:33

they have been safe, they have been good,

22:35

and to not discount that and to leave

22:38

room for possibly interacting with them in those

22:40

areas, there are still ways to be good

22:42

to her without bailing her out of financial

22:44

troubles. Marta, I know there's probably

22:46

a lot of emotional clutter that's going on here as well,

22:48

because you have a lot of expectations

22:51

that were not met. You also

22:53

have your own standards that are

22:55

different from your sister's standards. And

22:57

what you're trying to navigate right

22:59

now is this relationship and what's

23:01

it look like going forward, but

23:03

also what are my emotional ties

23:06

to this relationship that might actually

23:08

be preventing me from letting go

23:10

of that old version and moving

23:12

forward to a new, more prosperous

23:14

version? And so I'd love

23:16

to send you a copy of TK's

23:18

ebook. In fact, it's free. You can

23:20

download it on our website at theminimalists.com/emotional

23:23

clutter. The book itself

23:25

sort of walks you through a lot

23:27

of these emotions that clutter our everyday

23:29

life. And instead of simply ignoring the

23:31

emotions or trying to get rid of

23:33

all of the emotions, TK,

23:35

what you've done here is you've set up

23:38

this understanding of what these emotions mean in

23:40

our everyday life. So Marta, I think you'll

23:42

enjoy that. If you want the audio book

23:44

version of that, we'd be happy to send

23:46

it to you as well. Malabama, before we

23:49

get back to our callers, can you tell

23:51

me what time is it? You know what

23:53

time it is. It's time for the lightning

23:55

round where we answer the Patreon community chats,

23:57

question of the week. Yes, indeed. During

24:00

the lightning round, we each

24:02

have 60 seconds to answer

24:04

your question with a short,

24:06

shareable, minimal, maximum. You can

24:09

find this episode's maxims in

24:11

the show notes over at

24:13

theminimalists.com/podcast and every minimal maxim

24:15

ever over at minimalmaxims.com. We'll

24:18

also deliver our weekly show notes

24:20

directly to your inbox, including five

24:22

new minimal maxims every Monday. In

24:24

fact, I think it's like 10 minimal

24:26

maxims this week, every Monday for

24:28

free. If you sign up for our email newsletter

24:30

at theminimalists.email, we'll never

24:33

send you spam or

24:35

junk or advertisements, yuck.

24:38

But we will start your week off with

24:40

a simple dose of simplicity.

24:43

Alabama, what's the question of the week this week? In

24:45

what ways do you make your own life

24:47

more chaotic? Oh, I'd love to

24:49

hear what y'all have to say listeners, but

24:52

we reached out to our Patreon

24:54

community via the community chats over

24:56

there and a bunch of

24:59

people, dozens and dozens, maybe hundreds

25:01

of people answered this question. In

25:03

what ways do you make your

25:05

own life more chaotic? Now,

25:07

before we get to TKs and

25:09

my pithy responses, I thought we'd

25:11

read a few of the patrons

25:14

chats. Here's one from Noor. Right

25:17

now, my life is chaotic because

25:19

I'm staying in a situationship, even

25:22

though I'm certain we have different end

25:24

goals, but the prospect of being alone

25:26

until I met someone new sounded more

25:28

painful than allowing this to run its

25:30

course. Well, a long time listeners of the

25:33

podcast know that I have one of my favorite maxims

25:35

is I'd rather be alone

25:38

than be miserable. And

25:40

it's easier for me to say that

25:42

as an introvert, but I could apply that to any extroverted

25:45

friend of mine as well. One

25:48

way that we can make our lives more

25:50

chaotic is to get into

25:53

relationships that sort of lack a compatibility

25:56

in our own lives. TK, are you familiar with

25:58

this term pain shopping? No. It's

26:01

fascinating, because I think it relates to this

26:04

episode really well, but quite often we go

26:06

shopping for pain. We go looking for

26:08

things that might hurt us. Like I'll give

26:10

you $100 to punch me in the face.

26:14

Yes, but metaphorically. Yeah. And

26:17

so pain shopping might be like, oh,

26:20

you know what, I'm gonna go look at my

26:22

wife's phone. Who's she texting right now? I'm

26:24

looking for something to be upset by. And

26:27

sometimes it can be as simple

26:29

as looking to misunderstand someone, or

26:32

it can be us putting ourselves in

26:34

relationships, or as Noor says

26:37

here, in a situation ship in

26:39

which we are not compatible. And so it

26:42

may not be a fruitful relationship,

26:44

not because of the other person, but because

26:46

I've gone out pain shopping. Now, why do

26:48

we do that? I think we go pain

26:50

shopping. We look for things to upset us

26:52

because it gives us at least that bit

26:54

of certainty. I'm certain I can find something

26:56

to be upset about. Yeah,

26:58

it makes me wonder if it's not just

27:00

a form of pain confirmation, right? Like you

27:03

picking up the wife's phone, let

27:05

me look at her text messages, see who

27:07

she's been texting. You're already hurting, man. Yes.

27:10

There's a thought process that led you up to

27:12

that point, right? There are some stories

27:14

you've been running in your head for

27:17

some time before you get to that point, right?

27:19

And so you're already kind of in pain, and

27:22

you're looking for something to validate that story

27:24

of pain that you're telling. That's interesting. I

27:26

never heard that term, but that's fascinating. I'd

27:28

like to do a whole episode on pain

27:30

shopping and the different ways we go to

27:32

look to upset ourselves or to hurt ourselves

27:35

emotionally. There's this tie-in with the emotional

27:37

clutter piece of it as well, because

27:39

you know what? Someone like Noor is

27:41

like, hey, I just,

27:44

I'm terrified of walking away

27:46

from this thing that doesn't work. In

27:48

other contexts, it's often way easier to

27:50

see. If you have a

27:52

boss that is abusive, well,

27:54

it's easier to say, you know what? Even

27:56

though I'm getting paid here, I

27:58

need to go find a different. And it's

28:01

true, you may need to stay at that

28:03

job to pay the bills, but the difference

28:05

with the relationship is, unless you're in a

28:07

dependent sort of relationship where the other person

28:09

is paying the bills, walking away

28:11

is one of the first steps of

28:15

reducing that level of misery. And

28:17

staying in a situationship or relationship

28:19

like that is often pain shopping.

28:21

It's almost like a form of

28:24

masochism. It's I'm

28:26

looking for ways to harm myself.

28:28

I'm heaping more chaos into my

28:30

life. And often it's other people

28:32

around us and our expectations really

28:35

of those other people that make

28:37

our lives more chaotic. You

28:39

know, on the private podcast this week, I wanna discuss with

28:41

you TK, the misnomer

28:44

of relationship failure. Because

28:46

I think a lot of failed relationships

28:48

aren't actually failed relationships. So I wanna

28:50

talk about that. We'll also discuss the

28:53

three ingredients of a successful

28:55

relationship. Every successful relationship has three

28:57

ingredients. I wanna talk about that,

28:59

but also A.J. Bryant and Cordelia

29:02

had something to say. I make

29:04

my life more chaotic by being

29:06

an introvert, but working a career

29:08

that requires me to be an

29:11

extreme extrovert. This resonates with

29:13

me because TK, when I was in the corporate

29:15

world, I realized that being good at a thing

29:17

does not mean it's a good choice. I

29:19

was really good at managing

29:21

dozens and eventually hundreds of

29:23

retail stores and running

29:25

the operations. And I had a very

29:28

extroverted career and I was good at

29:30

it, but I didn't enjoy it because

29:32

it didn't align with me as a

29:34

human being. And I was

29:36

staying in it because of the money, right? Oh

29:38

yeah, and the money said something about me and

29:41

the status that's related to that and the job

29:43

title, right? But when that stuff's

29:45

in the driver's seat, especially when money is

29:47

in the driver's seat, then I think a

29:50

crash is inevitable. Yeah,

29:52

you're exactly right, man. We make choices like that

29:54

every day, right? This is who I am, this

29:56

is what I need, this is what's

29:58

best for me. but I simply can't

30:01

afford to say yes to that. What

30:04

about Alin? I make

30:06

my life more chaotic by underestimating

30:08

how much time certain things take,

30:11

like my morning routine, traffic, etc.

30:14

And then I feel rushed going

30:16

to different commitments. TK,

30:18

does this resonate with you at all? I

30:22

literally looked at Josh this morning going, TK's running a

30:24

little behind, where is TK? It's

30:27

funny, the thing you talked about trust earlier with

30:29

respect to being

30:32

on time, and you even raised your hand, this

30:34

is an audio podcast. But like, no,

30:37

I don't trust TK to be on time, but I'd give

30:39

him my wallet, I'd give him the keys to my house

30:41

or my car. I let him watch

30:43

my daughter, no problem. He could spend the

30:45

afternoon at the movies with my wife. I

30:47

don't have any concerns about any of that.

30:49

There's like, there's just this one area. And

30:54

I don't know that it actually makes his life more

30:56

chaotic. I don't know if you have any insights on

30:58

that. I

31:00

think it makes your life more chaotic, Josh. But

31:03

that's also my expectation, right? Yeah. It's

31:05

my expectations that make my life more

31:07

chaotic. It's not TK who's making my

31:10

life more chaotic. That's true. It's my

31:12

expectations I heap onto TK. So,

31:14

I think I've mentioned this before, but

31:16

my wife and I, the TV show

31:18

we're watching right now is Columbo, old

31:21

school Columbo episodes. And we're

31:23

watching an episode the other night

31:25

and Columbo comes in the room

31:27

all completely disheveled. And

31:30

one of the cops that's there was talking about

31:32

the murder and he mentions how there's coffee spilled.

31:35

And Columbo says, coffee? And he goes, yeah, the coffee was

31:37

spilled right here. He goes, is there any more of it

31:39

left? And they're like, yeah, he goes, man,

31:41

I didn't get any sleep last night. Let me get a

31:44

cup of that. And my wife

31:46

says, oh my gosh, that's you. Like, you know,

31:48

this guy's going to get to the bottom of

31:50

this crime. But outside of

31:53

solving crimes, he has nothing

31:55

going for himself. Doesn't

31:57

get enough sleep. Does it take

31:59

care of himself? completely disheveled, can't

32:01

remember anything, but he's gonna solve

32:04

this cry. Thanks, honey.

32:06

Ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha!

32:09

Before we get to our pithy answers here at TK, I

32:12

noticed there were a few other people to

32:14

mention like procrastination. Yes. And then Amy and

32:16

Nikki both said, my life is more chaotic

32:19

because I'm always trying to do one more

32:21

thing before leaving the house. Amy, Nikki, this

32:23

is the title of my memoir. It's one

32:25

more thing before I go. I'm constantly late

32:28

because of that specific thing. And I think

32:30

there's an argument that that might be a

32:32

form of procrastination in and of itself. Like

32:34

I know there's this other thing I need

32:37

to do. This used to happen to me

32:39

with writing all the time where I wanted

32:41

to write every day and I

32:43

could schedule the time to write, but then, oh,

32:46

you know, I gotta fold the laundry still. You

32:48

know what, I forgot to wash the dishes. Can

32:51

you believe I didn't put the clothes from the

32:53

washer into the dryer? And then all of a

32:55

sudden it was one more thing, and

32:57

I was one more thing in myself to death.

33:00

It was creating more chaos because it was

33:02

getting in the way of the thing that

33:04

I actually wanted to do. You know how

33:07

they say fear of success is a thing?

33:09

I think fear of being too

33:11

early is also a thing as well. I

33:14

think sometimes people are late a lot because

33:17

they're just afraid of being 30 minutes early.

33:20

What the heck am I gonna do if

33:22

I'm there that early? I'd rather take my

33:24

chances and be right on time or just

33:26

a few minutes early than be there too

33:29

early, and then you end up doing things

33:31

like not accounting for the variables that make

33:33

you late. Whenever you focus on just being

33:35

on time, you're almost always late. I think

33:38

about Ryan Nicodemus with respect to this. His

33:40

thing is he often just double and triple

33:42

books. He'll say yes to everyone because he

33:44

wants to please everyone, and this is, I'm

33:47

talking- Does he believe he'll make it work?

33:50

Yeah, and the thing is he has

33:52

a track record of being able to

33:54

thrive in chaos. He's

33:56

one of those people. I remember when we were back in the corporate

33:59

world, and- and his sales

34:01

would suck the first half of the month. Honestly,

34:03

the first 25 days of the month,

34:06

he would start to catch up toward day 20, 22, 25, but

34:10

those last five days,

34:12

he would then leapfrog

34:14

everyone. And it got him a

34:16

promotion and the same thing would happen. His stores

34:18

are down here at the bottom. And then somehow

34:21

the last five days of the month come around

34:23

and he's the number one store manager

34:25

in the company and he's

34:27

getting praise, he's getting awards, he's getting

34:30

trips. And it almost like it

34:32

took that chaos for him to thrive. And

34:34

so when I say chaos, I don't say

34:36

it is a bad thing. There are some

34:38

people like Nicodemus who function really well in

34:40

chaos. In fact, they need that almost as

34:42

a motivator. Would you encourage someone to keep

34:44

that? Like, hey, it's working for you, man,

34:46

do it. Or would you say like, nah,

34:48

you probably should look into that. I think

34:50

it works really well up into a point,

34:52

right? On the private podcast for today, we're

34:54

gonna talk about people who plan, don't plan

34:56

enough. And then there are people who

34:58

over plan. And that can

35:01

be me. And I think either one of those can

35:03

be a bit detrimental because with me,

35:05

I can plan, plan, plan, plan, plan so much

35:07

that I don't end up doing anything. And

35:10

then Ryan can be in the middle of

35:12

chaos so much, he doesn't actually plan on

35:14

doing the thing that he wants to do.

35:16

And so there probably is a healthy

35:19

level of chaos until it

35:21

turns into that disorder that

35:23

is causing all of the

35:26

turmoil or discontent in our

35:28

lives. If you

35:30

have something pithy for me to answer this question, by the way, the question

35:32

of the week again is, in what ways do

35:35

you make your own life

35:37

more chaotic? My

35:40

pithy maxim is, or pithy. So,

35:44

all my people out there, when

35:46

you resist your power ceases to exist. I

35:50

can probably win a court case with that one. But,

35:53

you know, problems are part

35:56

of life, but sometimes we attach

35:58

this extra layer to our pithy. problems

36:00

like the fact that I am going through

36:02

this just goes to show

36:04

how much I suck at life. Or

36:07

you get a flat tire, something

36:10

happens that makes you late for work. This

36:12

always happens to me. This only happens

36:14

to me. Nothing ever works

36:16

out for me. My birthdays always get

36:18

ruined. Why am I the only one

36:21

that ever meets this kind of person?

36:24

No one ever, I would get this question. I

36:26

would be the person to have a moment like

36:28

this happen to me. And

36:30

you're not very powerful in those moments. You're not

36:32

very tuned in with your creative energy in those

36:34

moments. But when you step back and you say,

36:36

I have a problem. I

36:39

don't like this problem. It feels terrible, but

36:41

I can learn from this. I have a

36:43

problem. I don't like it. I think I'm

36:45

responsible for producing a lot of the elements

36:48

of it, but that's okay. I can get

36:50

better in the future and I can figure

36:52

this out. There's some room for me to

36:54

learn this problem isn't the end or the

36:57

definition of me. That's when you bring your

36:59

power back into focus. So when you resist,

37:01

you're talking about almost hiding the problem. It

37:03

doesn't go away, right? But you resist, what

37:06

you're saying here, when you resist, your

37:08

power ceases to exist. It's

37:11

almost as though like we can take a

37:13

problem that is relatively small. Tony Robbins calls

37:15

it killing Godzilla while he's a baby. Don't

37:17

wait till he's taking over the city, right?

37:20

I like that, yeah. But that's what happens

37:22

quite often in our everyday lives. Like,

37:25

oh, that's a small problem. I

37:27

can get to it tomorrow. Before you know

37:29

it, six months have gone by, years gone

37:31

by, and now Godzilla is taking over the

37:33

city. It's a real problem now. It's a

37:35

death, it's a health crisis, it is a

37:38

divorce, it is an infidelity. It's

37:40

some sort of big chaos that

37:42

had I looked at Godzilla when

37:44

Godzilla was a baby, it would

37:46

have been so much easier for

37:48

me to address that problem then.

37:51

Here's my pithy answer for you. A

37:54

bigger shovel will not dig you out of

37:56

the hole you've created. I

37:59

think quite often what happens. is, well,

38:02

we have a problem. And

38:04

we say, I need to do something. I've

38:07

dug myself into a hole, but I

38:09

better dig faster. I better

38:11

dig wider, I better dig harder. You

38:14

know what? This digging isn't working. I

38:16

must get a new shovel, a bigger

38:18

shovel, a more precise shovel. If

38:21

that doesn't work, I'm just going to get a

38:23

forklift, or I'm going to get some sort of

38:25

tractor equipment. I'm going to just find a way

38:27

to get out of this hole by digging when

38:30

the real answer is to stop digging.

38:33

And so I found that when I'm in chaos, and

38:36

this has happened to me, one

38:38

of the best things I can do is

38:40

just pause. This one

38:42

means stop forever. It just

38:44

means pause and say, aren't the

38:47

actions I'm doing here representative of

38:49

getting me out of this hole,

38:51

or are they making the hole worse?

38:54

And in our society, it

38:56

feels like inaction is

38:58

considered to be lazy. It's considered

39:00

to be wrong. And so

39:03

we say, we can't do nothing.

39:05

We have to do something to

39:07

solve this chaos. And

39:09

so we heap more chaos onto

39:11

it. We go pain shopping. We

39:13

beat ourselves up. And then before

39:15

we know it, the hole is

39:17

such a huge crater. And

39:19

it started out as just a small little pothole,

39:22

but we kept digging and digging and digging,

39:24

and it got more chaotic by the day.

39:27

Man, you just described

39:30

my philosophy of the public

39:32

education system. Hey,

39:35

we're digging in the same space in the

39:37

same way with the same mindset.

39:40

And hey, we're

39:42

not finding what we need. Let's just throw more money

39:45

at it, AKA, get a bigger shovel

39:47

and keep digging in the same space with

39:49

the same people in the same way, looking

39:51

for the same things. At some point, you

39:53

gotta change your spots or ask yourself, is

39:55

digging the thing that I need to be

39:57

doing right now? How about

39:59

you, Los? in what ways do you make

40:01

your own life more chaotic? We'd love to

40:03

hear from you in the Patreon community chat.

40:06

You can also leave a comment on

40:08

YouTube. We're just getting started.

40:11

We have a collection of callers to talk

40:13

to, but first real quick for right here,

40:15

right now, here's one, actually two things going

40:17

on in the life of the

40:19

minimalist. Today is the first day of

40:22

a brand new month. A new month

40:24

is here and it is the perfect

40:26

time to declutter your life, your house,

40:29

and maybe your office space, your car, with

40:32

something we call the 30-day

40:34

minimalism game. You can download

40:36

the free calendar over at

40:39

theminimalists.com/game. Longtime listeners know how

40:41

this works. We've had tens of thousands

40:43

of people play the 30-day minimalism game.

40:45

You also saw it in our last

40:48

Netflix film. You partner up with

40:50

someone, a friend, a family member, a coworker, and you say,

40:52

hey, we're both gonna get rid of some stuff this month,

40:54

but I don't know where to start. Well, that's

40:56

easy. The first day, you just get rid of one item. Second

40:59

day, two items. Third day, three

41:01

items. So you start to get that momentum

41:03

and you build that letting go muscle. It

41:05

gets more difficult because by the middle of

41:07

the month, it's day 15 and

41:10

uh-oh, I have to get rid of 15 items today

41:12

and 16 items tomorrow and 17 the next day.

41:14

Now, whoever goes the longest wins, so you can

41:17

bet something at the beginning of the month, maybe

41:19

it's a nice meal, concert tickets,

41:21

whatever you want. It's a friendly little

41:23

wager between friends and whoever goes

41:26

the longest wins, if you both make it to the end

41:28

of the month and you've both won

41:30

because you've gotten rid of about 500 items and

41:32

that is a really good start. You can

41:34

also post all of your photos of the things

41:36

you're letting go of on social media. You

41:38

can use our hashtag less is now. Also

41:42

this week, fams. Did you know that you

41:44

can have a Zoom call with the minimalists?

41:46

That's right. You can join

41:48

the minimalists on the first Friday of

41:50

every month during our Friday afternoon and

41:53

minimalism Zoom on Patreon. Our next fams

41:55

is this Friday, July 5th at 3

41:57

p.m. Eastern. One of my favorite things

42:00

that we do, we get to

42:02

have this Zoom call with our listeners. You get

42:04

to come up, you can be a fly on

42:06

the wall, turn your camera off and just listen,

42:08

or turn your camera on and join the party.

42:10

You can hop up on screen with us and

42:13

we'll talk to you, we'll answer questions,

42:15

any interaction that you want to have

42:17

with the minimalist, you can join me

42:19

in Malabama, Nicodemus, TK, and

42:21

the whole team, post-production, Peter is usually

42:23

there as well. Malabama, what else you

42:25

got for us? Here's a minimalist insight from

42:27

one of our listeners. Hello,

42:30

the minimalist, my name is Dr.

42:32

Orlando Ramirez. I'm calling from Phoenix,

42:34

Arizona, and many years ago I

42:36

embraced minimalism and stoicism. At

42:38

the time it was very easy for me to let go of

42:40

things in my life. While I

42:42

fully embraced letting things go, I did choose

42:44

to keep a few items to which I

42:46

held a strong emotional attachment to. I

42:49

curated a set of items that I used

42:51

to decorate my office and elements in my

42:54

home with. And each of these

42:56

items represented significant touch points in my life,

42:58

represented meaningful experiences with other people that I'd

43:00

had over the years. But earlier this year

43:03

I began to think about my life in

43:05

different ways. Turning 50 can

43:08

do that to a person. So a few

43:10

weeks ago I held a dinner and I

43:12

invited my closest friends and

43:14

their spouses to mark the occasion. During

43:17

the dinner I took time to thank everyone for

43:19

attending. And then one by one I took those

43:21

items that remained in my office out of the

43:23

box and I told how I came to possess

43:25

each item. End of the experiences

43:28

and memories each one represented to me. And

43:31

then as I finished the story of that item

43:33

I presented the items to a friend and I

43:35

told the story of my friendship

43:37

with that individual and how they impacted my

43:39

life and changed me for the better. Now

43:41

of course being a minimalist I explained that

43:43

they would not hurt my feelings if they

43:46

chose not to keep the item. But

43:48

the next day when I observed all

43:51

of the new absence that was in my office

43:53

I could not help but think about each of

43:55

the different items. My wife asked me if I

43:57

felt a sense of regret in

43:59

getting those remaining items. items away and I told her

44:01

no. That 100% I did not feel

44:03

regret that instead I felt I felt

44:05

solid. I felt solace and knowing that I connected

44:07

with my friends in a way they did not

44:09

expect. And I felt

44:11

solace and letting go. And

44:13

as I head into my 50s, I now feel

44:16

lighter, even more lighter than I did before, even

44:18

more simpler than I did before.

44:21

And of course, I definitely feel

44:23

content. Thank you so much for

44:25

all that you do. Cheers. Orlando.

44:28

Wow. Thank you so much for that

44:30

thought provoking and insightful comment. For anyone

44:33

else who has a listener tip or

44:35

insight about this episode or any other

44:37

episode, leave a comment on

44:39

Patreon or YouTube or better yet, you can

44:41

send a voice memo to podcast at theminimalists.com

44:43

so we can feature your voice on the

44:46

show. All right. That's the first 28.6% of

44:48

episode 449. We'll see you on Patreon for

44:50

the full maximal edition, which includes answers

44:57

to a bunch more questions. Questions like,

45:00

should I end my chaotic marriage

45:02

or should I try to save it? How

45:04

can I save my mother from

45:07

my chaotic and narcissistic father? Why

45:10

has my girlfriend changed after

45:12

our pregnancy scare? Plus a million

45:14

more questions and simple living segments

45:17

over on The Minimalists private podcast.

45:19

We also have an outstanding home

45:21

tour from one of our listeners

45:23

this week on Patreon. Just visit

45:25

patreon.com/The Minimalists or click the link

45:28

down in the description to subscribe

45:30

and get your personal link so that

45:32

our weekly maximal episodes play in your

45:34

favorite podcast app. You also gain access

45:36

to all of our podcast archives all

45:38

the way back to episode 001. By

45:40

the way, Patreon is

45:43

now offering free trials. So if you'd

45:45

like to test drive our private podcast,

45:47

you can join for seven days for

45:49

free. And that is our minimal episode

45:51

for today. If you leave here with

45:54

just one message, let it be

45:56

this love people

45:59

and use things. Because

46:01

the opposite is chaotic. Thanks

46:05

for listening, y'all. We'll see you next time. Peace.

46:08

Every little thing you

46:11

think that you need. Every

46:13

little thing you think that

46:15

you need. Every

46:18

little thing that's just

46:20

feeding your greed. Oh, I

46:22

bet that you'll be fine

46:24

without it. You