0:19

Every little thing you

0:21

think that you need Every

0:24

little thing you think that

0:26

you need Every

0:28

little thing that's just

0:31

feeding your greed Oh, I

0:33

bet that you'll be fine

0:35

without it Every

0:58

little thing you think that you'll be fine without it Oh,

1:03

I bet that you'll be fine without it Oh,

1:44

I bet that you'll be fine without it Oh,

1:50

I bet that you'll be fine

1:52

without it Oh,

1:56

I bet that you'll be fine without it or

2:01

email a voice recording

2:03

right from your phone

2:05

to podcast at theminimalists.com.

2:07

Our first question today

2:10

is from Cardinal. Hey Josh,

2:12

hey TK, I'm Cardinal from Canada.

2:15

I love your podcast, I listen to it

2:17

every week. I usually watch it, but

2:20

I am happy to switch to listening to

2:22

you guys on

2:24

Spotify instead. I

2:27

have a question I've been thinking over.

2:30

I'm a practicing witch and

2:32

I've noticed that contemporary

2:34

practices require a lot of

2:37

stuff. Tarot

2:39

decks, crystals, oracle decks, spell

2:41

components, statues, herbs, candles, oils,

2:43

you name it, it exists.

2:46

I have about 13 tarot and

2:48

oracle decks. I go

2:50

over them regularly and kind of see what I'm

2:52

using, see what I'm not using, and I

2:54

often give them away because

2:57

sometimes they need a better home somewhere else.

3:02

There's plenty of herbs around my house

3:04

and crystals and things which

3:06

I don't use very much. I

3:10

got a new job in the past year

3:12

and I ended up buying eight

3:15

small and goddess statues just

3:17

in the past year, which

3:20

isn't necessarily a bad thing. These statues

3:22

make me happy, my room looks

3:25

beautiful, they bring me a lot

3:27

of joy to look at, but I also think

3:29

like, well, you know, do I need

3:31

all of these tarot card decks? Do

3:33

I need all of these statues? So

3:35

I've really been wondering how I can practice

3:37

minimalism while also enjoying my

3:40

spiritual practice. Thanks very much, guys.

3:43

TK, I've been waiting to do this

3:45

episode with you because I know you

3:47

and I have different views on spirituality

3:50

and religion, but if you

3:52

were to look at us on a Venn diagram,

3:54

I suppose there's some overlap there as well. I'd

3:56

love to figure out where that overlap is. One

3:58

philosophy by which I live. of my

4:00

life is that if an accessory

4:03

does not markedly enhance an activity,

4:06

i.e. it doesn't add value in

4:08

some way, then it is clutter.

4:10

Even if it's not necessarily getting in

4:13

the way, if it's not enhancing

4:15

the activity, then it's clutter by proxy

4:17

because eventually it will get in the

4:19

way. I'm thinking about my own

4:21

spiritual practice. I wouldn't call it this, but I've

4:24

heard other people refer to it. I've been swimming

4:26

every day. We haven't talked about this on the

4:28

show yet, but every day I swim 30 laps

4:30

in 30 minutes. And so I'll

4:33

get in the pool. I'll do these

4:35

laps at the local athletic club that we

4:37

have in my community up in Ojai. And

4:39

it's a non-chlorinated pool, so I'm really happy

4:42

about that. It's ozone filtered.

4:44

And when I go there, there are a

4:46

few accessories that are really necessary for swimming.

4:49

First, I have to put swimming trunks on

4:51

because if I went there naked, it'd be

4:53

a problem. Although if it was

4:55

my own pool, I probably wouldn't wear swimming trunks

4:57

in my own pool. It wouldn't be a problem

5:00

at all. When I get into the ice bath

5:02

in the mornings, which I guess some people could

5:04

call a spiritual practice or spiritual ritual as well,

5:06

I wouldn't put that label on it, but I'm

5:08

not mad at someone else who does. I don't

5:11

put shorts on to get into the ice bath

5:13

this morning. When I'm in the sauna, I don't

5:15

put shorts on. But when I'm in a public

5:17

pool, I'm courteous toward

5:20

others. And so I put on my

5:22

swimming trunks that are comfortable to me.

5:24

But also I put some earplugs in

5:26

because I don't like getting water in

5:28

my ears. I don't like getting swimmers

5:30

ear. And that's a real problem

5:32

for me. For other people, not really a

5:34

problem. However, when I go to the pool

5:36

and I see other people swimming,

5:38

many of them have other accessories.

5:40

They wear the goggles, swimming goggles.

5:42

They have the cap on top

5:44

of their head to make them

5:46

more aerodynamic so their hair

5:49

doesn't get in the way. Totally understand

5:51

that. There are other people who have

5:53

flippers or little boards they use. They

5:55

hold in their hands. And there are

5:57

a bunch of different accoutrements that people

5:59

have. And my first inclination is

6:01

be like, you don't need that, why don't

6:03

you be more of a minimalist? Isn't that

6:05

just swimming clutter? Well,

6:08

for them, the answer is probably no.

6:10

I don't know for sure. For some

6:12

of them, maybe they would benefit by

6:14

removing that for a period of time

6:16

and recognizing that maybe their swim is

6:19

enhanced by the removal of some

6:22

of these accessories. However, their swim

6:24

might be enhanced by the addition

6:27

of some of these accessories. What

6:29

are your thoughts on that? Yeah, I

6:31

like the way you own

6:34

your use of things and

6:37

you validate anyone who needs things in

6:39

order to be the artist or the

6:41

creator or the healthy person that they

6:43

want to be. And what I'm getting

6:45

out of what you're saying is like,

6:47

hey, look, I use all

6:49

of this stuff. And the reason that I'm really

6:51

good at delineating what sorts of things I need,

6:53

and the reason I'm good at keeping those things

6:56

organized, being able to access them when I need

6:58

them is because I don't have anything getting in

7:00

the way of that. When physicists

7:02

talk about, when they study

7:05

like particles and so on, they never refer

7:07

to that as clutter. They call it matter.

7:10

They call it energy. And there's a

7:12

reason for that because energy and matter

7:14

is not the same thing as clutter.

7:16

Clutter is any time you have energy

7:18

in your life that gets in the

7:20

way of the things that matter the

7:22

most. So having a pair of socks

7:24

isn't clutter. You can't just take something

7:26

because it is physical and define it

7:28

as clutter. If that were the case,

7:30

then our own bodies would be clutter.

7:33

The earth itself would be clutter, but

7:35

our bodies are not clutter. The earth

7:37

is not clutter. There's nothing wrong with

7:39

matter or things of physical substance. The

7:41

question always is, what is my

7:43

relationship to this stuff? Am I on autopilot

7:46

or am I being intentional? And it sounds

7:48

like with you, with all the things you

7:50

just described, you're being very intentional about them

7:52

and they're supplementing your life. Is that right?

7:54

Yeah, I think so. And so let's get

7:56

to Cardinal's question because I since...

8:00

a sense of angst or maybe

8:02

just some underlying anxiety around

8:04

the accoutrements of

8:06

their spiritual practice here, right? Because

8:09

at first we feel compelled. I'm

8:11

reminded if I take this outside of the

8:14

spiritual world, although people call this a spiritual

8:16

practice as well, I do yoga regularly. And

8:19

I have some friends when they

8:21

first start yoga, it's more about buying

8:23

the accessories for yoga than it is

8:25

the practice of yoga. If I get

8:27

the really nice pants, if I get

8:29

the best yoga mat, and of course

8:31

I need the blocks and the balls

8:33

and the yoga strap, and there's

8:36

nothing wrong with any of those things, but

8:39

do I actually need them? Will

8:41

they enhance that experience or am I just

8:43

playing yoga? Is it yoga dress

8:45

up or is it something

8:47

that is enhancing my life in some

8:50

way? And so when I think about

8:52

Cardinal's question, whether it is the candles

8:54

or the statues or the card decks

8:57

or the oils or beads or any

8:59

other accessory that you might have, does

9:02

it markedly enhance the activity? And

9:05

the way to find whether or not it adds

9:07

value is to remove it for a period of

9:09

time. You can do a packing party with

9:12

your own spiritual

9:14

items, your spiritual accessories,

9:17

right? And determine, oh, you

9:19

know what? I actually miss this. Well, why do

9:21

I miss it? Oh, that's an important question. Do

9:23

I miss it because it's habit and I'm just

9:26

always used to having that card deck here or

9:28

that statue here, or do I

9:30

miss it because you know what? It actually

9:32

did serve some sort of purpose in

9:35

this spiritual practice. Absolutely,

9:37

and another way you can test it is not

9:39

only give it up for a while and see

9:41

if you can make it without it, but also

9:43

test yourself by seeing what you're willing to

9:45

give up in order to make place for

9:47

it in your life. This works very well

9:49

with children, by the way, a great alternative

9:51

to just telling them no if

9:54

they want something really expensive or they

9:56

seem like they're entitled in their request

9:58

is to simply assign a- a realistic,

10:00

honest cost to it, and then give them

10:02

the power to choose based on their own

10:04

innate ability to prioritize. So a kid says,

10:07

I want that, all right. Are

10:09

you willing to give up a dollar for it? Oh, no,

10:11

I don't really care about it that much. Oh, I want

10:13

that, okay. Are you willing to give up your

10:15

TV time for that? Or are you willing to spend

10:17

five minutes on that? Oh, I want the dog, okay. You

10:20

can have the dog. Are you willing to take the dog

10:22

for a walk every day and pick up the poop?

10:25

Oh, I don't really want it that much, right?

10:27

Sometimes we say we want something and we really

10:29

mean it, but we mean it in the abstract.

10:31

What we really mean is, hey, I kind of

10:33

get a nice, warm, fuzzy feeling

10:35

when I think about having that. And that's

10:38

a great starting point. You certainly want to

10:40

look for that warm, fuzzy feeling at

10:43

the same time. If you're not willing to pay a

10:45

cost for it, if you're not willing to give up

10:47

anything else for it, then that means that, hey, you

10:49

might enjoy it to a certain extent, but

10:51

it's not a priority for you. I think

10:53

that's spot on. Recently, my daughter who just

10:56

turned 11, she dislikes

10:58

doing her math and reading homework. We unschool

11:00

her, but then we have this curriculum. We

11:02

used to use something called Kumon. It didn't

11:04

work well for her. I've seen it work

11:07

well for other kids. It just didn't work

11:09

well for Ella. And I could

11:11

tell that she just disliked it,

11:13

like strongly disliked it and would

11:15

throw a fit and not lash

11:18

out, but you could tell, like

11:20

there was this inner turmoil.

11:22

It was like an inner fit that was going on

11:24

with her. She simply disliked

11:27

doing that work. And so eventually we had to

11:29

find a different app that worked better for her,

11:32

where she would actually speak the words back as

11:34

she was reading them. And it

11:36

was a much better fit for her.

11:38

But what I realized is at first

11:40

I thought, oh, she just dislikes doing

11:42

difficult things. But then

11:44

she proved that wasn't true because there was one day

11:47

where I was getting into the ice bath, which is

11:49

pretty difficult. Now you've been over to my house. You've

11:52

gotten in the ice bath before. That is most definitely

11:54

one of the most difficult things to do for me. I

11:58

don't react to cold very well. And

12:00

so it's 33 degrees and she sees me

12:02

get in there all the time. And the longest she'd

12:04

ever been in, it was like five seconds. She dipped

12:06

in, panicked, got out, right? And

12:09

yet when it came to doing

12:12

her Kuman homework, the math

12:14

and the reading and the writing,

12:16

I said, you know what? I'll trade you. I

12:19

will do your Kuman for you tonight, if you

12:21

can get into the ice bath for two minutes.

12:24

Two minutes is a century in an ice

12:26

bath. It really is. And yet she

12:28

was like, I don't know. I'm like, okay, that's fine.

12:30

You can just do it. She's like, no, I'll do it. And

12:33

she goes, she's never been in there for more than

12:36

five seconds. She gets in, she hops out right after

12:38

five seconds. I'm like, she's like, is that enough? I'm

12:40

like, no, you have to do the full two minutes

12:42

and you have to dunk your head afterward. She's

12:44

like, I can't do it. I'm like, that's fine. You

12:48

can do the homework. We know you can do that.

12:50

You just don't enjoy it. She's like, I don't enjoy this either. That's

12:53

fine. We get to pick what difficult things we

12:55

want to do. It's your decision. She

12:57

goes, okay, I really, really don't want to

12:59

do the math. So she gets in the ice

13:01

bath. She just sits there for two

13:03

minutes. She gets out afterward. And

13:06

she goes, I feel

13:08

so alive. And

13:11

that was the point of the

13:14

ice bath for her. It shows

13:16

that you can feel so alive

13:19

after doing difficult things. And

13:21

I think at our best,

13:23

many spiritual practices are difficult.

13:26

All of man's problems stem from his

13:29

inability to sit quietly in an empty

13:31

room, according to Pascal. And

13:34

yet that's one of the most difficult

13:36

things to do, but it can be one of the

13:38

most rewarding when you're on the other

13:40

side of the drudgery or the pain

13:42

or even the suffering. We talked about

13:45

this a couple episodes with Jack

13:47

Conti. To be passionate

13:50

about something means to be willing

13:52

to suffer for it. But

13:54

the unexpected benefit for Ella wasn't that she

13:56

didn't have to do her homework. It's

13:59

that she was. so alive afterwards because

14:01

I feel so good right

14:03

now. Why don't I do

14:06

this more often? Oh,

14:08

why don't I do difficult things more

14:10

often? However, and I suspect TK, this is where

14:12

we might diverge a little bit and this will

14:15

be an interesting discussion. I think

14:17

most spiritual practices are nonsense. What's

14:21

your guy's name? Kapil.

14:23

Kapil Gupta, yes. That's the Kapil-pil.

14:26

Some people take the red pill, Josh took the Kapil-pil.

14:30

I sound like I'm rapping, give me that

14:32

Kapil-pil. And so what I've

14:35

learned is quite often we're looking

14:37

for a prescription or a template.

14:39

And those things work really well

14:42

in mechanical or practical or cosmetic

14:44

or superficial arenas. So

14:46

for example, I've been having this issue with my shoulder.

14:48

That's why I actually started swimming. It wasn't a

14:50

spiritual practice for me to start swimming.

14:53

Although I did learn that there is

14:55

maybe some elements of a spiritual practice

14:57

from doing that every day and getting

14:59

comfortable with my breath and getting in

15:01

sync with my body and staying in

15:04

touch and letting the thoughts go. There

15:06

is a spiritual element to it. But

15:08

the mechanics of it is why I

15:10

started. And so the how-tos or the

15:12

prescriptions or the templates work really well

15:15

for those mechanical things, for

15:17

those practical things, for those superficial

15:19

things to help with my shoulder

15:21

pain. The mechanics of physical therapy

15:23

can really help, right? That sort

15:25

of practice. However, I think

15:28

most people embark on these spiritual

15:30

endeavors because of some sort of

15:32

deep suffering that is going on

15:35

within inside them. You've

15:37

experienced this. You converted to Catholicism a

15:39

few years ago after being a

15:42

non-denominational Christian for a very long

15:44

time. And you decided to

15:47

make that shift and we could talk about

15:49

why, but I'm sure you've seen other people,

15:51

not as a judgment, but you see people

15:53

who are really suffering and they reach for

15:55

the first thing that's available to them. And

15:57

for some people, that's Jesus. For some people,

16:00

people it is statues and Ouija

16:02

boards and oils and beads. For

16:04

other people, it is a yoga

16:06

practice and there's nothing wrong with

16:08

any of those things. But

16:10

it's like putting a band-aid on an ax

16:12

wound. If I were to saw off your

16:14

arm right now, TK, a

16:16

band-aid might hurt or might help one

16:19

10th of 1%, but it's

16:21

not actually going to fix

16:23

your suffering. We need to do

16:25

something more dramatic. And quite

16:28

often when we pick up

16:30

a spiritual practice, it apes the form

16:32

of doing something for our suffering, but

16:35

it just covers it up temporarily.

16:37

And that suffering continues to grow

16:39

within us. Yeah, I

16:42

think the underlying message here is

16:44

that anything can become a hiding

16:46

place that you use

16:49

to run away from a

16:51

confrontation with truth. Anything can be

16:53

that. And some people respond

16:55

to their suffering by resorting to religion. Some

16:57

people respond to their suffering by resorting to

16:59

violence or to partying or to

17:02

drinking, to busyness, to activity, to trying to

17:04

make a lot of money, whatever it may

17:06

be. And that doesn't mean any of those

17:08

things are bad. Nothing wrong with hanging out

17:10

with friends, having a drink, working hard, making

17:12

money, but why are you doing those things?

17:14

Are you doing those things because there's something

17:16

else you feel like you ought to do, something

17:19

else your conscience is demanding that you do, and

17:22

you're just doing that because it's easier,

17:24

it's more familiar, it's a way to

17:26

run. I think that is true with

17:28

everything. I would say, however, is that

17:30

having a robust philosophy of suffering is

17:32

an important aspect of life. And I

17:34

think it's one of the things that's

17:36

missing from a lot of popular discussion

17:38

on self-help and personal development. Life isn't

17:41

just about becoming the best version of

17:43

yourself or trying to be healthy. It's

17:45

also about learning how to cope with

17:47

and frame and process that

17:49

experience, which we call suffering, or

17:51

rather the experience of pain and

17:53

the way we relate to pain

17:55

in a manner that transforms it

17:57

into suffering. And when we suffer,

18:00

we've got to run to something. And I pray

18:02

that we're running towards truth. And so the real

18:04

question is, are we running towards something that is

18:06

true, something that is good? I

18:08

know for me, when it comes to things

18:10

and spirituality, so in the

18:13

Catholic worldview, there's something called incarnational theology. And

18:16

it's sort of a response, if you will, to

18:18

a philosophy called dualism, which

18:20

basically says, body, evil,

18:22

spirit, good, matter, bad,

18:27

immaterial, intangible things, good and

18:29

holy, right? And this

18:31

can lead to all sorts of problems with

18:33

how we relate to our own bodies, how

18:35

we relate to the material world and so

18:38

on. But incarnational theology says, all right, when

18:41

God created the world, he

18:43

created everything good. So sunlight,

18:45

holy, not just innocent, not

18:47

just okay, but actually holy,

18:49

a real true expression of

18:51

divine creativity. Trees, mountains,

18:53

rocks, streams, water, squirrels,

18:56

bears, this stuff

18:58

is holy. Now, we can have a relationship

19:00

with these things or a perception of these

19:02

things that makes them seem

19:05

neutral or irrelevant or having nothing

19:07

to do with spirituality, but really

19:09

these things are sacred. And

19:11

the world is not there to

19:14

be ran from or to be transcended,

19:16

but it's there to be redeemed and

19:18

reclaimed. It's there to be beautified by

19:20

our acts of love, our acts of

19:23

reverence, our acts of creativity. And

19:25

this is expressed in the

19:27

spirituality. And so we have a spirituality that

19:30

involves things. It doesn't depend on things in

19:32

the sense of like, hey, you can't possibly

19:34

pray unless you make the sign of the

19:36

cross or you can't possibly connect with God

19:38

unless you're inside of a church or unless

19:41

you're dipping your finger in the holy water.

19:43

No, you can do all of those things.

19:45

You can connect with God at

19:48

the beach. You can connect with God

19:50

at your home. You don't need things,

19:52

but things have a role of reminding

19:54

us of what's important and also rooting

19:56

us in the fact that our spirituality

19:58

is never to become so different. so

20:01

internalized that we reduce ourselves

20:03

to brains and a vat who become

20:05

righteous merely because we are

20:08

proud of the accuracy and refinement and

20:10

precision in our theology. And that's where

20:12

you get into the attitude of, I

20:14

can treat you like crap because

20:17

my theological arguments are so good. And

20:20

so I don't have to respect your

20:22

body because your body isn't important. I

20:25

don't have- And treating you like crap

20:27

also gets me more clicks these days

20:29

as well, right? And so there's, I

20:31

think that component, when you layer that

20:33

in, there's the performative component of the

20:35

spirituality, which is often enhanced

20:38

at least seemingly by the accoutrements.

20:40

I sent you a picture, just

20:43

at the Santa Barbara Art Museum,

20:46

and there was on the wall this picture

20:48

of St. Francis. And I

20:50

love everything you're talking about because you're explaining it

20:52

in religious terms, but you were explaining it to

20:55

someone who is relatively secular

20:58

and yet I can still tweeze out

21:00

the value of what you're saying. Because

21:02

I can also recognize that when you

21:04

say God or I say God, we

21:06

might be talking about

21:08

different things. I don't know for sure,

21:11

but what I can tell you is

21:13

that I can

21:15

still benefit from the understanding

21:18

that you have about suffering and connecting to

21:20

the universe or nature or whatever you wanna

21:22

call it. But anyway, I sent you this

21:24

picture of St. Francis and he's

21:26

got this really awesome looking robe. Looks like

21:29

it was designed by Kanye West himself. And

21:32

he's in this moment of prayer and

21:34

he's holding this skull in his

21:37

hand. So I guess he has a

21:39

accessory there. And maybe that's the

21:41

momentum more, you know, you are

21:43

going to die and this is what a great

21:45

reminder of death holding a human skull in your

21:48

hand. But it doesn't mean that he can't

21:50

pray without the robe and the

21:53

skull. He could pray

21:55

ideally just as well. It's

21:57

just those accessories might enhance

21:59

that. that ritual that he's

22:01

experiencing might enhance the experience of

22:03

prayer itself. Exactly, and none of

22:05

it stems from a sense of

22:07

necessity, but rather a deeper understanding

22:09

of the role of things. Like

22:11

someone may say to me, I

22:13

have on my arm a

22:16

chaplet, and someone may say, you know, hey, you

22:18

don't need a rosary to pray. And I would say, I

22:20

totally agree, man. I also don't need to shake your hand

22:22

or lick you in the eyes when I talk to you.

22:25

But I do, not because I have to,

22:28

not because I think I'm gonna be punished if

22:30

I avoid those things, but because I understand something

22:32

about what it means to interact with the person.

22:34

And when I look you in the eye and

22:36

I shake your hand and I give you a

22:39

hug, that comes from a place

22:41

of understanding, not from a place of

22:43

fear, right? And so whether

22:45

it's the holy water, I have icons in

22:47

my home. I have a necklace that I

22:49

wear with my confirmation Saint, Saint Monica. I've

22:52

got a brown scapular, like things. I love

22:54

things, not because my power is located in

22:56

things, or that if those things were

22:58

lost, or if my

23:00

house burned down, God forbid, that, oh no,

23:03

where's God? My icon of Mary is gone.

23:05

Where's God? The cross in my home is

23:07

gone. Where's God? God still remains. These

23:10

things are there as reminders for

23:12

me of what's important. They're

23:16

sacramentals in the sense that they

23:18

help cultivate a certain interior disposition

23:21

that I can then carry over into every

23:23

area of my life, which is what allows

23:25

me to experience God in the mountains, experience

23:27

God in the beach. And not just that,

23:29

but also driving through the ghetto, experiencing

23:32

Him around scary people, experiencing Him around

23:34

people who smell bad, experiencing Him around

23:36

people that I feel are irritating, experiencing

23:39

Him around people that push my buttons,

23:42

those things as well. And I think things can play a role

23:44

in that way. You're talking about

23:46

reminders of the divine in some way,

23:48

right? And just like the handshake analogy

23:50

that you used a moment ago, which I think is

23:53

perfect, because yes, it's possible

23:55

to talk to someone without shaking their hand,

23:57

or without looking them in the eye. It's

24:00

also possible to have way too much of

24:02

that, right? Yeah, yeah. I

24:04

can shake your hand for five seconds and that

24:06

might start to feel like it's a bit long,

24:08

but if I shake your hand for five minutes

24:10

and five seconds, it's gonna be like, why won't

24:12

this guy let go of me? There's

24:15

too much going on here. And

24:17

I think that's, when we get

24:19

to the essence of Cardinal's question,

24:21

it's about do I have too

24:23

much versus well,

24:26

what is enough? And I think it comes

24:28

down to that. It comes down to two questions

24:30

for me. What is enough?

24:33

And the only way I can figure that out

24:35

is by temporarily depriving myself, not getting rid of

24:37

the things, but removing them for a period of

24:39

time and ask myself what is enough? And the

24:42

other question I ask myself is, what

24:44

am I doing this for? Why

24:46

this spiritual practice? No matter what

24:49

it is, whether it's swimming

24:51

or yoga or Catholicism

24:54

or Hinduism or perennialism

24:57

or quietism, whatever your

24:59

so-called spiritual practice is, why

25:01

am I doing it? Is

25:04

it to numb the suffering? Is

25:07

it to understand the suffering? Is

25:09

it to conquer and eliminate the suffering?

25:12

Well, you get to decide, right? And then

25:14

I get to determine what

25:16

is enough? How much is

25:18

too much? Because if it's too much, that is

25:21

the clutter. And then we're talking about

25:23

spiritual clutter. If you have too many

25:26

accessories, you might actually get in the

25:28

way of the experience

25:30

itself. Yeah, that's so

25:32

good, man. That's right on the money. Why I think

25:35

of, I'll bring it just back to my religion,

25:37

a moment where Jesus is talking to his disciples

25:39

and says, who do men say that I am?

25:42

And they said, oh, well, well some people say this

25:44

is who you are. And some other people say that,

25:46

you know, you're this prophet. Other people say you're the

25:48

reincarnation of this person. And he says, well, who do you

25:50

say that I am? And that's

25:52

when it really hits home, right? And so

25:56

what you do and how you show up has

25:59

to boil down to... something a lot more deeper

26:01

and more fundamental than, well, what do other

26:03

people say? What do Josh and TK think

26:05

about this? Will this impress other

26:07

people? And quite often we get

26:10

all the yoga accoutrements or all the

26:13

Wiccan or witch accoutrements or

26:15

all the Christian accoutrements or

26:18

all of the swimming accoutrements because

26:20

not because it's going to

26:23

enhance my practice or

26:25

my ability to access

26:27

the divine or ease my suffering or

26:29

whatever my why is here, but because

26:32

it's going to impress other people. Look

26:34

at me, I'm the most spiritual.

26:36

I'm the most religious. I

26:39

am the best religious person in

26:41

the world. Well, that's just a

26:44

type of consumerism. It's spiritual consumerism.

26:46

Consumerism is the ideology that buying

26:48

more things will make you better.

26:51

And if we look at that

26:54

in the normal consumer world,

26:56

it can be square footage

26:58

or luxury cars or gold

27:01

chains or diamonds or purses

27:03

or dresses or really

27:05

expensive shoes. Look how much better

27:07

I am. But in the

27:09

spiritual world, there are two types

27:11

of consumerism. There's the buying all

27:13

of the accoutrements because

27:15

look how impressive I am. I'm the

27:18

most spiritual. There's a flip

27:20

side of that. It's inverse spiritual consumerism.

27:23

I've let go of everything. Look

27:26

how much better I am because

27:28

I abstain from everything. I

27:30

live the life of an ascetic and

27:32

it proves to you that I am

27:35

the best spiritual person in the world.

27:38

Or perhaps a common form of what

27:40

I call social media religion is look

27:42

at me, man. I'm above it all.

27:44

I'm smarter than it all. I'm better

27:46

than it all. And I'm the only

27:48

one out here that's not deceived by

27:51

whatever it is y'all fools are

27:53

deceived by. Oh yeah. I

27:56

am smart enough to realize that

27:58

everybody's wrong about that particular. or

28:00

that everybody's wrong about that. And I don't

28:03

need anything. I don't have any ideas, any

28:05

beliefs, any feelings, any vulnerabilities, any desires, that

28:07

too can become a kind of its own

28:09

religion, which is just another way of hiding.

28:11

It's another form of consumerism in a certain

28:14

different sort of way. Cardinal,

28:16

if you asked those questions that we talked

28:18

about earlier, what is enough and why am

28:20

I doing this? Ultimately, you'll

28:23

get down to figuring

28:25

out what your boundaries are. If

28:27

you need help determining those boundaries,

28:29

download our free minimalist rule book.

28:31

You can check it out at

28:33

theminimalists.com/ rule book. It's a

28:36

free ebook beautifully designed by our friends

28:38

over at Spire Media, Dave and Jeff

28:40

over there. Our savants

28:42

of development and design. Love

28:45

those guys. You can download it for free. We

28:47

also have an audio book version of

28:49

the minimalist rule book over

28:52

there, theminimalists.com/rule book. Also Cardinal,

28:55

we let go of something that was dear to

28:57

us recently. It was the video

28:59

version of the podcast. And Cardinal

29:01

mentioned that, hey, I used to watch

29:03

you guys, but I'm happy to listen

29:06

to you on Spotify. Now I've got

29:08

good news for anyone who listens to

29:10

the private podcasts, our longer form version

29:13

of the podcast. It is coming to

29:15

Spotify soon as well. You still subscribe

29:17

through Patreon. You can listen on any

29:19

podcast player, whether it is Apple Podcasts

29:22

or Overcast or Feedly or Podcatcher,

29:25

there are quite a few podcast players that

29:27

people get value from. The one place you

29:29

can't get it right now is Spotify, but

29:31

that's changing really soon because Spotify is this

29:34

walled garden. We've been working with the fine

29:36

folks over at Patreon and Spotify. So you

29:38

can listen to our entire private podcast wherever

29:40

you want. You can listen on the Patreon

29:43

app as well. But if you want to

29:45

listen on Spotify, Cardinal, you'll be able to

29:47

do that really soon. Before we

29:50

get back to our callers, Malabama, what time is

29:52

it? You know what time it is. It's

29:54

time for the lightning round where we answer

29:56

the Patreon community chats, question of the week.

29:58

Yes, indeed. Now, during. the lightning

30:00

round, we each have 60 seconds to

30:02

answer your question with a short, shareable,

30:05

less than 140 character response. We

30:07

call them minimal maxims. We put them in

30:09

the show notes over at theminimalists.com so you

30:11

can copy and share our pithy answers with

30:14

your friends and family. You can share it

30:16

on social media if you'd like. And by

30:18

the way, we put all of those minimal

30:20

maxims each week in the

30:22

email that we send out to

30:24

anyone who's on our newsletter. You

30:26

can subscribe for free over at

30:28

theminimalists.email. We'll start your week off

30:30

with a bit of simplicity, four

30:32

or five or six or eight

30:34

minimal maxims for the week, some

30:37

pithy aphorisms to simplify your

30:39

life. What is our question

30:42

of the week this week,

30:44

Malabama? What's the first thing that

30:46

comes to mind when you hear the

30:48

term spirituality? Oh, I've had different

30:50

answers for this over time. I

30:53

think I was quite cynical with respect

30:55

to that term spirituality. Is that right?

30:57

For the longest time, because

30:59

of what I was talking about

31:01

earlier, most spirituality feels like nonsense

31:04

to me. Seems like

31:06

nonsense. Sometimes it even seems

31:08

like an excuse to not deal with our

31:11

very real problems. It's to cover

31:13

them up with something that looks

31:16

like it's doing something. It's the

31:18

band-aid analogy from earlier, but I

31:20

think it's even worse than the

31:22

band-aid analogy because it seems like

31:25

I'm actually doing something. I'm becoming a

31:27

better version of myself. And so I

31:29

was a bit cynical before, especially

31:32

with respect to spirituality or

31:34

even the term religion, right? Now,

31:37

do you consider those two the same?

31:39

Because I've always heard spirituality as like,

31:41

when people say I'm spiritual, it's usually

31:43

never just as a standalone statement. It's

31:45

usually I'm more spiritual than religious or

31:47

I'm spiritual, not religious. And I usually

31:49

hear that as, hey, look, I

31:52

have a sense of consciousness

31:54

of something higher or a sense of

31:57

reverence or a deep relationship to like

31:59

creative energy. there's something along those lines, but

32:01

I don't go to church and I'm not

32:03

committed to the creeds or dogmas of any particular

32:06

faith. I've always kind of heard it

32:08

in that way. Yes, that's

32:10

how I used to think about it now, but

32:12

now I'm so much more open to both of

32:14

those things, not

32:16

from a dogmatic standpoint or even a

32:19

standpoint of ideology, but

32:21

from wisdom. There are so

32:23

many wisdom traditions, whether I look at

32:26

ancient Hinduism or Buddhism, Jesus

32:30

Christ himself. I mean, one of the most

32:32

powerful lines in the history of humanity is

32:34

forgive them for they know not what they

32:36

do. Oh, that

32:40

applies to my life now. If

32:42

I feel like I've been wronged, it'd

32:45

be just as wrong for me to then

32:47

resent that person because they don't

32:49

know what they're doing. Oh, yes, they do. They

32:52

really don't. Could they have done it differently? It

32:54

doesn't even make sense when you break that question

32:56

down. Yes, perhaps they could

32:58

have done some alternate timeline, but they

33:00

didn't. Should they have done

33:02

something different? Does that even make sense? And

33:05

so I look at the

33:07

ancient wisdom traditions. I'm

33:10

still skeptical of religion. I'm

33:12

still skeptical of spirituality, but it's a

33:14

healthy skepticism. It means I'm not willing

33:16

to just allow you to hand a

33:18

template to me and say, this is

33:20

the way that things are. That's what

33:22

happens with a cult when things

33:25

go too far in a cult. Here's how you

33:27

should believe. Well, why? Because

33:29

this is how you should believe. Oh, that reasoning

33:31

does not work for me. I like that word

33:33

cult because I think the whole world has become

33:35

a cult. Once upon a

33:38

time, you would often hear

33:40

other branches of knowledge differentiate themselves

33:42

from religion precisely

33:44

by saying, hey, this isn't about what

33:47

accepting an authority figure tells you. This

33:49

is about what you can test for

33:51

yourself, what you can observe for yourself.

33:54

This is about evaluating your own experience

33:56

and taking that seriously. And

33:58

now I... I think we live

34:01

in a culture where people deviate more and

34:03

more from argumentation, intellectually

34:06

honest debate, sitting down discussing controversial ideas.

34:08

And it's more a matter of, let

34:10

me just mock you and shame you

34:12

if you don't believe the thing that

34:14

I've decided is the right thing. As

34:16

I heard someone say, we've moved from,

34:18

hey, I believe you're a good

34:20

person with bad ideas to I believe

34:22

you're a bad person because of those

34:25

ideas. Yes. That's a

34:27

great distinction there, right? Because what

34:29

we do, and this is

34:31

a type of spiritual clutter, I think cynicism

34:33

is a type of clutter even, right? Skepticism

34:35

is one thing. It means I'm not just

34:37

willing to accept anything that you hand to

34:39

me and continue to hold on to it.

34:42

I'll entertain the idea, even something like

34:45

the flat earth. To

34:47

me, at first, that's easy

34:49

to dismiss. But

34:51

if I'm just going to dismiss it without

34:54

even thinking about it, then

34:56

I'm being just as dogmatic.

35:00

And so yes, I can entertain

35:02

a conversation with someone who believes in

35:05

flat earth. I'd love to

35:07

hear, by the way, if anyone listening to us believes in

35:09

flat earth, show me the best

35:11

argument for that. And I mean that in a skeptical

35:13

way, but not in a cynical way. Well, now that

35:15

you put that out there, you're going to get it,

35:17

brother. You're going to get a whole lot of emails.

35:19

But here's the funny thing about that discussion and what

35:21

you're saying. Let's

35:24

take the scientists out of it, right?

35:26

Because the majority of people are not

35:28

scientists, even though in the last five

35:30

years that has changed and everyone is claiming

35:32

to be one or pretending to be one. If

35:36

you take the scientists out of it and

35:38

just take the average person, if you randomly

35:41

select it from people who claim to believe

35:43

in, we'll call it oblate spheroid

35:45

as Neil deGrasse Tyson describes it, that the

35:47

earth is a oblate spheroid. And then if

35:50

you take at random people who claim

35:52

to believe in flat earth, and then you

35:55

say, all right, go into a room and debate, I

35:57

would put my money that in most cases, the

36:00

person who believes in flat earth is

36:02

going to be more eager for the debate and

36:04

they're gonna be more argumentative and they're gonna have

36:06

more stuff to say. And the

36:08

person who disavows flat earth is going

36:10

to rely more on mockery and shaming

36:12

and rolling their eyes and being like,

36:15

I can't believe that you even believe

36:17

that. And thus they lose the debate

36:19

on, just on appearances alone,

36:21

right? Right. And before anybody says, oh, well

36:23

you're arguing for flat earth. No, actually I'm

36:25

arguing for something different. Part of the problem

36:27

with taking your belief to be

36:29

so obvious that you can rely solely on

36:32

shaming rather than getting in the ring and

36:34

debating things, especially when

36:36

you hide behind, oh, I'm not gonna

36:38

dignify that belief, which is beneath me

36:41

by even addressing it logically, is

36:43

that you lose the teaching opportunity for other

36:45

people who think like you and for other

36:47

people that you want to know the truth,

36:49

you lose the opportunity to show them that

36:52

it's not just about having the right beliefs.

36:54

It's about holding those beliefs in a way that

36:56

is logical, in a way that is sound, in

36:59

a way that can be substantiated. Education

37:01

isn't about telling people what's true and saying,

37:03

because I told you so. Education

37:06

is about teaching people what's true

37:08

and saying, and here's why this

37:10

truth doesn't depend on my believing

37:12

it. Here's how you

37:14

can hold me accountable as a teacher

37:16

that's older than you and more experienced

37:18

than you to something that is even

37:20

higher than myself. And if I ever

37:22

deviate from these standards, you can take

37:24

me to task because the truth doesn't

37:27

rely on me being the person that

37:29

told it to you. It's true because

37:31

of these reasons. And we gotta get

37:33

back to this place where we

37:35

just rely on the easy thing

37:38

of shaming people because they say things that

37:40

sound absurd. Because even if it is absurd,

37:42

you wanna get in that fricking ring and

37:45

you wanna show that it's absurd by giving

37:47

reasons that substantiate the truth. And now you

37:49

teach people not just how to defend it

37:51

but how to reason about it clearly. Yeah,

37:54

I think that's spot on. I think if Malabamba came

37:56

to you today and she was like, hey TK, I

37:58

think the earth is flat. You wouldn't

38:00

try to shame her. That'd be the

38:02

cynicism side of it. Oh, what an

38:05

idiot, right? Yeah. You would

38:07

get curious about it. And that is the

38:09

healthy skepticism side. And I think if you

38:11

get most people private in a one-on-one discussion,

38:14

and you went up to a friend and was like, hey, I believe in

38:16

this, they'd be like, really? For real?

38:19

Why? That tone is pregnant

38:21

with shame. But that's okay

38:23

because that tone can also be like, for real,

38:25

I'm so surprised because what I think is so

38:27

obviously true and what you think is so obviously

38:29

wrong to me, I'm shocked, but tell me why.

38:31

But it's when you bring in the crowd, it's

38:34

what we're afraid other people are going

38:36

to think about us, right? That's the

38:38

basis for a lot of these reactions.

38:42

Discussions change so powerfully and dramatically when

38:44

you take the crowd away. Because the

38:46

moment you put the crowd in there,

38:48

we're all afraid about how people might

38:50

misunderstand us, what they might think of

38:52

us for endorsing this or

38:54

that position and how they might ostracize us

38:56

and shame us. But I think most people,

38:58

when you get them alone and

39:01

you talk to them, you can inspire

39:03

them to be a little bit more curious, even if they're not,

39:05

even if that's something that they've been disconnected

39:08

from for a while. My two cents. I

39:10

think that's spot on. Let's get back to

39:12

the question itself. All right, all right. That's

39:15

the longest lightning round introduction ever. The

39:18

question here is, what's the first thing that comes

39:20

to mind when you hear the term spirituality? TK,

39:22

give me something pithy. What comes to my mind

39:24

is the observation that

39:27

spirituality is who we are,

39:29

not what we do. There

39:31

is no spiritual ritual so

39:33

amazing and so great and

39:35

so life-giving that its power

39:38

can't be negated by your being completely disconnected

39:40

from it. It's possible to make the sign

39:42

of the cross. It's possible to close your

39:44

eyes when you pray. It's possible to sit

39:47

in the lotus position and still be a

39:49

complete jerk who lacks compassion,

39:51

whose heart is callous towards other

39:53

people, who doesn't embody that spirituality

39:56

in any meaningful way when it

39:58

comes to going out. into the

40:00

real world. And it's also possible to be

40:02

anti-ritual and to say, I don't do any

40:04

of those things and still have a heart

40:06

that's closed. Ultimately, practices come

40:09

and go, practices are beautiful, but

40:11

spirituality is about the inner disposition.

40:13

It's about being open to grace,

40:15

open to love. And

40:17

I love what you're saying there because

40:20

it doesn't require that you do anything.

40:22

It also doesn't require that you have

40:24

anything for your spiritual practice. Yes, there

40:26

are some accessories that may

40:28

enhance it in some way. Just like

40:30

my swimming, those earplugs, I don't have

40:32

to have them, but they

40:35

do make that experience better. And

40:37

so when I think about spirituality, I

40:40

mean, I come from the other side of it. And

40:42

I think that every ideology comes

40:44

pre-packaged with clutter. And

40:46

so if someone just hands you a spiritual practice

40:48

and you don't ask any questions about it, you

40:50

don't get curious about it, you don't get healthfully

40:54

skeptical about it, then

40:56

you'll just accept something. Well,

40:58

here's what I'm supposed to do without knowing why you're

41:00

doing what you do. Well,

41:03

that is clutter. If you're just handed

41:05

an ideology and you're not willing to

41:07

question it because you'll be ostracized by

41:09

the group or just because it's easier

41:11

to not question things, right? That

41:14

might sound like it's true, but

41:16

it's actually way more difficult on

41:18

the long run if you're not

41:20

willing to ask those questions. The

41:23

other thing I'll say is nonsense is always

41:25

nonsensical, even if it looks good

41:28

on a bumper sticker. And

41:30

so this is the most difficult thing about

41:33

the show that we do. I write out

41:35

these minimal maxims. We put them over there

41:37

in the show notes. They're also at minimalmaxims.com.

41:40

And I think if I am remembered

41:42

for one thing well after my death, it'll

41:44

probably be these little pithy, simple living aphorisms

41:47

that we've come up with over the years.

41:49

And most of my writing now sort of

41:52

involves these different aphorisms, but a

41:54

lot of time goes into it. And I see

41:56

other people try to do it. There are some

41:58

people who do it masterfully. In fact, on

42:00

the private podcast later on, we're gonna talk about the

42:03

five most popular quotes from waking

42:05

up, and I really enjoy those.

42:07

And all of those look great

42:09

on a bumper sticker or a

42:11

billboard, but most bumper stickers and

42:13

billboards are nonsense, they're nonsensical. And

42:16

I think it's one of the most

42:18

difficult things we do here is trying

42:20

to communicate something broad and complex and

42:23

filled with truth, but in a

42:25

way that is packaged, that I

42:27

can hold on to that and

42:30

I can see that, I can know what you mean

42:32

by it. It reminds me of

42:34

this quote from Dan Quayle. Oh

42:38

my gosh, I haven't written down here. If

42:40

we don't succeed, we

42:43

run the risk of failure. And

42:46

like, at first we call those

42:48

faux fundadies because

42:53

at first it sounds profound, like, yeah, yeah, that

42:55

makes, wait a minute. That's

42:58

a tautology, right? Like, of course if

43:00

we don't succeed, we run the risk

43:02

of failure. By the way,

43:04

if you do succeed, you also run

43:06

the risk of failure. And so it's

43:09

really difficult to try to sum something

43:11

up, love people and use things because

43:13

the opposite never works. And

43:15

you can argue against that, but when you

43:17

get the essence of it, it's hard to

43:20

state something in a sentence or two that

43:23

someone can pick up not just what you're

43:25

saying, but the essence of what you're saying.

43:27

And so when I think about

43:29

spirituality, I think of there's a

43:31

whole lot of nonsense out there. There's a

43:33

whole lot of clutter, a lot of spiritual

43:36

clutter, a lot of ritual clutter, a lot

43:38

of religious clutter, but

43:40

there's something true within that. There's

43:43

something true within Jesus or Buddha, where

43:45

you look at the Upanishads and you

43:47

go back to these ancient wisdom traditions.

43:50

There's a lot of truth there. There

43:52

are all of these nuggets of gold,

43:54

but sometimes you have to sift through

43:57

a whole lot of sediment in

43:59

order to get. to those gold nuggets.

44:01

Malabamba, before we move on here, some of

44:03

our patrons, they weighed in on this. Actually,

44:06

hundreds of them weighed in on this. You

44:08

can let us know as well, what's the

44:10

first thing that comes to mind when you

44:13

hear the term spirituality? Head on over to

44:15

Patreon, the community chats over here. Let's talk

44:17

about a few of these that people said.

44:19

Trevor and Terry, I think they're two points

44:22

of view contrast with one another. Trevor said,

44:24

belief in something you don't

44:26

currently have, the tangible, concrete,

44:29

scientific details to explain with

44:31

logic, but contrasted with Terry,

44:33

they said positive, non-physical experiences

44:35

that can connect sentient beings.

44:39

Yeah, so let's talk about that really quickly, TK.

44:41

The belief in something you don't currently

44:44

have, the tangible, concrete, scientific details to

44:46

explain. That's what Trevor thinks spirituality is.

44:48

What are your thoughts on that? I

44:51

mean, my thought is that's a fantastic

44:54

description of what Trevor thinks spirituality is.

44:59

I mean, obviously Trevor isn't here and him

45:01

and I are not about to have a

45:03

debate about this, but one thing I would

45:05

say is I had the late

45:08

Quentin Smith, who was one of my philosophy

45:10

professors, who was an atheist. I

45:12

remember there was a time in class where

45:15

he asked the question and an

45:17

atheist answered, and he

45:19

stepped back and he says, let me just say this, don't

45:22

think for a second that just because

45:24

I'm an atheist and you're an atheist, that

45:27

I'm going to accept something you say is

45:29

true or allow you to just mock the

45:31

theistic point of view because we share the

45:33

same beliefs. As a philosophy professor, my job

45:36

is to not just evaluate the rightness of

45:38

your conclusion, but also the rightness of your

45:40

logic. And I'm gonna tell you now, some

45:42

of the best philosophers in the world today

45:44

are Christians, and if some of you guys

45:47

had to debate these dudes, they would mop

45:49

the floor with you. And so I think

45:51

it's important to always just keep a certain

45:53

reverence for the fact that on

45:56

both sides or all sides of every

45:58

debate, there are hundreds. that

46:01

would mop the floor with me in the debate that are

46:03

smarter than me. And so there are a lot of people

46:05

who see it that way, who

46:07

are smarter than me. And there are a lot

46:09

of people who are prepared to actually, now, of

46:11

course you're gonna disagree with them, right? Of course,

46:13

of course, like if you define spirituality that way,

46:16

we already know that the two of you

46:18

aren't gonna end this debate agreeing with each

46:20

other, but there are some people that professionally,

46:23

full-time, they argue all the

46:25

time that there are tangible concrete scientific details

46:27

that could be explained with logic for different

46:29

kinds of spiritual beliefs, not just Christianity, but

46:32

all different sorts of religions and spirituality. And

46:34

some of these people are very well thought

46:36

and very good. But anyway, the

46:38

purpose of this is to get other people's points,

46:40

not to debate their points. Sarah

46:43

said interconnectedness. That's what she thinks

46:45

of when she hears the term

46:47

spirituality. And to that,

46:49

I would say, what about interconnectedness?

46:51

So maybe the, my contrast

46:53

with that is, yes, there's an interconnectedness

46:55

with the earth, with the world, with

46:58

the universe, and maybe we

47:00

can call it non-dual thinking. There's

47:02

that interconnectedness. It's all connected, all

47:05

is one. But I

47:07

think you could flip that around and say,

47:09

there's also this interconnectedness. Right now,

47:12

especially with all of the noise,

47:14

it's really hard to be connected

47:16

with one's self. We

47:19

often feel so disconnected, not just from

47:21

the world around us, but because of

47:23

the world around us, we feel disconnected

47:25

with ourselves. Can I ask you about

47:27

that real quick? Sure. I'm

47:30

hearing a lot of

47:32

fatigue towards self-love. I'm

47:37

hearing a lot of folks talk

47:39

about now, this idea that like,

47:41

man, aren't we

47:44

just a little over inundated with

47:47

self-love? Like, how

47:49

about thinking about something other than what's going

47:51

on with you? How about looking

47:53

out for somebody other

47:55

than you and your immediate needs and

47:57

your immediate family? Like, It

48:01

seems like we might be more at the

48:03

risk of being so inward now that

48:06

all we think about is our own pleasure. I

48:08

get what you're saying about self-awareness is lacking, but

48:10

like, aren't we moving in

48:13

the direction of just being so inwardly focused that

48:15

interconnectedness only really matters to us when there's something

48:17

I can get out of you? What do you

48:19

think of that? I think that

48:21

pleasure thing is also a chase that

48:23

covers up the interconnectedness. And

48:25

you could call it self-love. I think most people have

48:27

no idea what love is, so we don't need to

48:29

go back onto that tangent. Me

48:32

and Baba just roll our eyes. I'll

48:35

take it a step further. Most people don't

48:37

know what the self is either. And so

48:39

if I ask you, who are you? You're

48:42

listening to this podcast right now, who are you? You

48:44

might describe, you might give me 15 adjectives

48:46

to describe you. I could tell

48:48

you, Joshua Fields Milburn, okay, that's

48:51

my name, I'm six foot two, okay. A lot

48:53

of people are six foot two, right? Six

48:55

five with the hair, of course. And

48:59

I could tell you that, well, I

49:02

am right-handed. I

49:04

am married, I live in Ojai,

49:07

California, and I

49:09

record a podcast, I write daily,

49:11

but that's not who I am,

49:13

right? And so when

49:16

you're talking about this idea

49:18

of self-love or interconnectedness, it's

49:20

about understanding oneself. And

49:22

quite often the way we discover that is

49:25

to discover the false self, the

49:27

ego. What is the ego? All these

49:29

things that I think I am, all these titles

49:31

that I heap onto me. And

49:33

so if there is this thing called spirituality,

49:36

I think what it helps us do is look at the ego

49:38

and see it for what it is, it is the false self.

49:43

A bunch of other people responded to this as

49:45

well. You can check it out and you can

49:47

let us know your thoughts as well. What's the

49:49

first thing that comes to mind when you hear

49:52

the term spirituality? Head on over to Patreon, hop

49:54

in the community chat. It's like,

49:56

that's how social media is supposed

49:58

to be for me. And

50:01

Trevor will probably appreciate this one. I'm

50:03

not bashing you either, Trevor. I

50:07

think your opinion needs to be on

50:09

the record, but I think he'll appreciate

50:12

Andy's. Andy's is a new store slash

50:14

trend slash online guru with marketing babble.

50:16

So you'll purchase their whatever and solve

50:18

all your problems. But maybe I've lived

50:20

in LA and NYC for too long.

50:25

I can tell you that that's how I used to look at

50:28

spirituality as well. Like it

50:30

was all nonsense. And I

50:33

didn't realize that below that

50:35

sediment, there was some true

50:37

gold, some truth that

50:39

sits beneath all of the babble

50:42

and the gurus and all of this,

50:44

this other stuff. There's some peace underneath

50:47

all of the spiritual clutter.

50:50

All right, TK, we're just getting started. We have

50:52

a troop of callers to talk to, but first

50:54

real quick for right here, right now, here's one

50:57

thing that's going on in the life of the

50:59

minimalist. Did you know the minimalists have 10 free

51:02

resources on our website, everything

51:05

from our downloadable 30

51:07

day minimalism game calendar and

51:09

minimalist wallpapers for your smartphone

51:11

and computer to our beautifully

51:13

designed eBooks, like my 15

51:16

ways to write better ebook and

51:19

TK's emotional clutter ebook, all

51:21

of which you

51:23

can download for

51:26

free at theminimalists.com/resources.

51:29

Malabama, what else you got for us? Here's a

51:31

minimalist insight from one of our listeners. Dear

51:34

minimalist, my name

51:36

is Gem and my top tip for your listeners is

51:39

to have an app a day. That's

51:41

right, not an app a day, but an app

51:44

a day. That way, rather

51:46

than feeling pangs of guilt and regret

51:48

for the amount of time you've spent

51:50

scrolling through your phone on various applications,

51:52

you choose just one and dip into

51:54

it each day for five or so

51:56

minutes. That way, you feel like you're

51:58

keeping abreast of things. without that

52:00

terrible nagging sense of, I

52:03

could be using my time for something more positive. Keep

52:06

up the good work. Lots of love

52:08

from the UK. Al Wight, The Minimalists.

52:10

Joanna, thank you for that unique insight.

52:12

For anyone else who has a listener

52:15

tip or an observation about this episode

52:17

or any other episode, leave a comment

52:19

on YouTube or Patreon or better yet,

52:21

send a voice memo to podcastattheminimalists.com so

52:24

we can feature your voice on

52:26

the show. All right, that's the first 42% of

52:29

episode 446. We'll

52:32

see you on Patreon for the full

52:34

Maximal edition with Ryan Nicodemus, which includes

52:36

answers to a bunch more questions, questions

52:38

like, how do I let go

52:40

of the pain from the past and still hold

52:42

on to the lessons I learned from that pain?

52:45

What can we do when

52:47

our religious beliefs conflict with

52:49

our values? How

52:52

can I have a relationship with my religious

52:54

parents if I'm repulsed by

52:56

their religion? Plus a million more

52:58

questions and simple living segments over

53:00

on The Minimalists private podcast. We

53:02

also have an outstanding home tour

53:04

from one of our listeners this

53:06

week on Patreon. Visit patreon.com/The Minimalists

53:08

or click the link down in

53:11

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the way, Patreon is now offering free trials.

53:29

So if you'd like to test drive our

53:31

private podcast, you can join for seven days

53:33

for free. And that is

53:35

our minimal episode for today. If you leave here

53:37

with just one message, let

53:39

it be this. Love people

53:43

and use things because

53:45

the opposite never works. Thanks

53:48

for listening, y'all. We'll see you next time. Peace.

53:56

Every little thing you think that

53:59

you need. Every

54:01

little thing that's just feeding your

54:04

greed Oh I

54:06

bet that you'll be fine without

54:08

it