0:20

Ever heard of screen need

0:22

thing birch me every

0:25

little thing. New thing that

0:27

you need. Every

0:30

little thing that's just feeding

0:32

me agreed or out there

0:34

that you live. Without

0:36

he. You're.

0:39

Listening to the Animals podcast with Joshua

0:41

Fields Melbourne and T K. Calm and.

0:44

Thank you Malibu Ama! Hello Everybody

0:46

coming up on this free public,

0:48

minimal episode of color has a

0:50

question about space hoarding for sounds

0:52

like a great site Fi Film

0:54

Rights Uk. Space

0:57

Hoarders, The Final Frontier

0:59

of clutter. But

1:01

you know it, it's actually a problem for

1:03

this call. Or maybe it's a problem for

1:06

you to get into that post. We've got

1:08

our lightning round question about things people are

1:10

unwilling to share. That's followed by are Right

1:12

Here Right Now segment and. A listener

1:14

tip: you could check out the

1:16

for maximal edition of episode four

1:19

Hundred and Forty Three where we

1:21

answer five times of questions and

1:23

we dive deep and the several

1:25

simple living segments. That private podcast

1:27

episode is out right now it

1:29

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memo right from your phone to podcast

1:54

that The minimalists.com or first question today

1:56

is from Janice. Journey.

2:00

San Diego. So.

2:02

Many I went from as a

2:04

slaughter. She. Has virtually an empty

2:07

garage and would not let a store

2:09

two packs of of paper towels and

2:11

toilet paper in the garage. Return.

2:14

States Order crossed my mind and

2:16

now I'm wondering if. Courting.

2:19

Empty space is a form

2:21

of forty or territorial behavior.

2:25

Knowledge. And will put on a pot of

2:27

coffee. I have a lot. Of

2:33

your your initial thoughts on is it

2:35

splits I can tell you that's a

2:37

few years ago. Five years ago. Maybe

2:39

even two years ago. Didn't really frustrated

2:41

by a question like this. Book

2:44

The. There's like a sense of

2:46

entitlement here. Rights. And I think

2:49

entitlement often comes from me as

2:51

sensors misunderstanding. This. Is Tom

2:53

Reeves the case scenario Move Heard

2:55

this term before recitation arm. It

2:58

basically means to turn an abstraction

3:00

into a real thing and sometimes

3:03

it's pathological. were inventing things you

3:05

don't actually exist but it's also

3:07

function of of language as well.

3:10

Reallocations comes from the latin Rez

3:12

which means thing so speedy to

3:14

think about of as as seeing

3:17

us, occasion and and sometimes elected

3:19

George Bush or time. For

3:22

case. Of. Us

3:25

who sometimes of we do is

3:27

return something that has nothing into

3:29

something that is something or nothing

3:31

into something and in fact that

3:33

when I think about simplicity simplicity

3:35

is not the absence of stuff.

3:37

It. Is a presence of

3:40

absence. If. You were walk into the

3:42

studio right now. It's. Mostly

3:44

empty. But. That doesn't mean

3:46

the someone else is entitled to use the space.

3:49

In fact in that closet over there we have

3:51

an empty shelves and of Jennifer to come to

3:53

us and say i should be able to keep

3:55

my toilet paper on yourself and your i would

3:57

say no you shouldn't be able to read. I

4:00

get to choose whether or not enough I

4:02

want to say yes. It makes sense for

4:04

you to store something that's been great, but.

4:07

It may not seem like clutter to you,

4:10

Janice. But. It sounds like it

4:12

seems like clutter to the person who's

4:14

renting the space to you. And because

4:16

it feels like clutter to them, I

4:18

want to respect their space. Or there's

4:20

a need for space. What are your

4:22

initial thoughts on this to take? Because

4:24

of a lot more thoughts? Sure will.

4:27

There's a general aspect to it, and

4:29

a specific aspect. On a general level.

4:31

There's the question of is it possible

4:33

to be a hoarder when it comes

4:35

to things like empty space? and is

4:37

it possible that that's what's going on

4:39

with this neighbor? I think the

4:42

answer to those questions is yes,

4:44

anything can be the subject of

4:46

possession. It can be not just.

4:48

Things. But you can be possessive of

4:50

people, you can be possessive of ideas and

4:52

interest. And of course you can be possessive

4:54

of space. in of this is the artists

4:57

that I love the I relate to and

4:59

then they become popular and everyone else starts

5:01

to like them and you find yourself getting

5:03

possessive over that. You don't like the fact

5:05

that everyone else likes them. Or you can

5:07

go to a park hoping to be all

5:09

by yourself that day. and even though it's

5:11

a public space and you're not entitled to

5:13

have it all to yourself, you find yourself

5:15

getting annoyed with other people that are enjoying

5:17

the same space. We have all sorts

5:20

of expectations we can get attached

5:22

to, and that is what's capable

5:24

of making anything the subject of

5:26

possession. So that is possible. here.

5:28

We do get territorial with space,

5:30

and when it comes to the

5:32

particular aspect is that what's going

5:34

on with your neighbor? I don't

5:36

know. Based. On what you told me.

5:38

Here's all I know. They. Have

5:41

resources namely an abundance of storage

5:43

space that would be useful and

5:45

helpful to you. You've.

5:47

Made that known to them and you've made a

5:49

request and they turned you down. It's

5:52

possible that they could be doing this because their

5:54

territorial. It's possible that there are other reasons we

5:56

don't know. There are lots of people out there.

5:59

We have the reason. To Help Me and

6:01

some of them may not help me because they don't

6:03

get me. Maybe. Because they don't trust

6:05

me? Maybe because they have uses for those

6:07

resources that are reserved for other things that

6:09

I don't know about and that they don't

6:11

feel the need to tell me about. It

6:13

Could be because they are complete jerk and

6:15

their arbitrarily turning me down. All of those

6:17

are on the table for me. However, I

6:19

think it's important to. Always.

6:22

Be curious when it comes to

6:24

people doing things that. We.

6:26

Don't understand or that we don't like.

6:28

not because that's charitable, but because that's

6:30

what leads to understanding and to personal

6:33

power. I find that people off the

6:35

mistake me for being charitable when I'm

6:37

curious. And it's not so much that

6:39

I'm Cheryl charitable, it's that I've learned

6:42

to develop a deep respect for how

6:44

terrible I am at making assumptions about

6:46

other people's intentions. It is not infrequent

6:48

that people do things that I don't

6:50

like or that I don't understand, and

6:53

whenever I assume I turn out to

6:55

be wrong. but. When I investigate,

6:57

when I inquire, when I humble

6:59

myself and asks, I discover things

7:01

that I never could have guessed.

7:03

And I think that's one of

7:05

the best ways to approach having

7:08

healthy relationships with people with whom

7:10

we frequently interact and so. I

7:12

empathize with the fact that you made your

7:15

request known to this neighbor and that it

7:17

kind of feels disappointing when they seem to

7:19

have the ability to help you and they

7:21

don't That's definitely disappointing and I'm sorry about

7:23

that are, but I would try to be

7:25

cautious about making a judgement here because space

7:28

hoarding is a possibility, but there could be

7:30

something else going on that we just don't

7:32

know about. In. That thing could

7:34

be as simple as I prefer. A

7:37

simple spoils. I prefer the presence

7:39

of apps Sincere in if you

7:41

were to store your things here

7:44

you could do that but it

7:46

would disturb my piece and that

7:48

is a good enough answer. The

7:50

means we're not entitled to someone

7:52

else a space. where

7:54

also not entitled to someone elses things and vice

7:56

versa sometimes it feels like while i'm not asking

7:59

for one of the things, I'm

8:01

actually asking to put my things where

8:04

they don't have things, but you have

8:06

to, through the reification thing, you understand

8:08

that, well, maybe that space is a

8:10

thing that is precious

8:13

to them, that they enjoy,

8:15

that brings calm or peace

8:17

to their lives. And

8:19

as soon as we think about it from

8:21

their perspective, it's not that they're denying you,

8:23

they want you to be upset with,

8:27

because you don't have enough storage space. Maybe

8:29

they simply don't want to be disturbed

8:32

by more things in their space. That's

8:34

right. And for the person

8:37

who's making the request, the

8:39

only thing you can know is

8:41

how easy or difficult the

8:43

fulfillment of that request seems to you. What

8:46

you don't have access to is how

8:48

easy or difficult it might feel if

8:50

you are experiencing that inside the body

8:52

and mind of the person you're expecting

8:54

to fulfill the request. So if you

8:56

ask me, Josh, hey, can you

8:59

come in an hour earlier today? That

9:01

for you might seem easy because you might think,

9:04

well, coming in an hour earlier isn't hard for

9:06

me. And based on what I know about TK's

9:08

life, that shouldn't be very hard for him. But

9:11

for all you know, I could have something

9:13

going on that particular day that makes it

9:15

difficult. I could have had a

9:17

terrible night's sleep that night and went to bed

9:19

thinking, oh gosh, I'm going to sleep in an

9:21

hour later today. And that request might be hard

9:23

for me on that day more than it would

9:26

normally be. And so you

9:28

always want to be careful about making assumptions

9:30

regarding how easy or difficult it is. Like

9:33

this is a great source of tension in the workplace.

9:35

Usually people who give out orders and make demands or

9:37

make requests on people's time, hey, I need you to

9:39

redesign the website and have it done by Wednesday. Hey,

9:41

I need you to do this or do that. They're

9:44

just thinking about it from the vantage point of, hey, here's

9:46

what needs to be done. You seem to

9:48

have the ability to do it based on my

9:50

evaluation of your life. So why

9:52

can't it be done? But for

9:54

the person who has to do it, it might

9:57

feel very difficult, even if it

9:59

isn't actually It might feel difficult

10:01

and that makes it a difficulty unto itself. And

10:03

what we're doing here is we're prescribing our

10:05

own preferences to someone else And

10:08

what we're saying is hey if I

10:10

had that garage space Then

10:13

I wouldn't have a problem putting the

10:15

extra toilet paper paper towels or other things I

10:17

want to store in there and

10:19

of course that often becomes a slippery slope and

10:21

this is how we turn in not space hoarders

10:24

But real hoarders real hoarders

10:26

didn't accumulate all of their

10:28

stuff Overnight they

10:30

didn't have a boundary and so they acquired something

10:32

and the one thing they acquired is Generally

10:35

never a problem But

10:38

then the next thing and then the next thing and

10:40

then a year goes by and I've acquired all these

10:42

things and then half a decade goes

10:44

by or a decade or two decades and If

10:47

you've ever been to a hoarder's house, you

10:49

can tell this stuff didn't show up overnight

10:52

This is a lifetime of

10:54

accumulation And one

10:56

might say the same thing for the

10:58

presence of absence for that empty space

11:01

It took me a long time To get

11:04

rid of the things that were cluttering

11:06

up my space and I sure don't

11:08

want to re clutter it with someone

11:10

else's things Even if it

11:13

feels virtuous in the moment, that's

11:15

right You know and there's an angel's advocate

11:17

thought I want to apply to everything that

11:19

I just said and that is There's a

11:21

distinction between being a hoarder and having an

11:24

understandable reason for why you are a hoarder

11:26

Every hoarder has their reasons some people hoard

11:28

out of fear Some people hoard out of

11:30

a response to trauma and most of the

11:32

reasons for hoarding Deserve

11:34

empathy and if you're gonna help people

11:37

that have a hoarding problem It has

11:39

to involve so much more than just telling them that

11:41

they are a hoarder and trying to make them feel

11:43

guilty about it And so it could be the case

11:45

that this neighbor here truly is a

11:47

space hoarder Even if there are understandable

11:49

reasons for it It could be they

11:51

get overwhelmed by the thought of someone

11:54

else ever having access to anything that

11:56

belongs to them It could be that

11:58

they deal with fearful thoughts about

12:00

someone coming into their space, leaving a door

12:02

unlocked, or doing something that results in big

12:05

problems for them in the future. And

12:07

so sometimes people

12:09

have understandable reasons for why they are the

12:11

way they are, and it doesn't change the

12:13

fact that the way they are being is

12:16

accurately described as being a hoarder.

12:19

You and I were just down in Tennessee at

12:23

Dave Ramsey's, and there was this event, and

12:25

I was talking to George Campbell, who's been

12:27

on this show before. He

12:30

was showing me his calendar, and

12:32

it was full of meetings and

12:34

appointments, and everything was planned out

12:36

and booked and sometimes doubled or

12:38

triple booked. He had a lot

12:40

going on, a busy day, right?

12:43

And then I showed him my calendar, and there was

12:45

literally one thing on it that day, and it was

12:48

the event that we were at. And

12:50

that was the only thing I had there. Now, does

12:52

that mean my way of doing it is right and his

12:54

is wrong? I think at one point I would

12:56

have said yes, that here's the

12:59

correct way to do it. Look at

13:01

all of this open space I have.

13:03

Maybe I'm a space hoarder with respect

13:05

to my calendar. But what

13:07

I realized is maybe that's appropriate for

13:09

him, but it's not appropriate

13:11

for me. And if I were

13:13

to try to then heap my

13:15

preferences onto George, maybe he'd be

13:17

miserable trying to have a slimmed-down

13:20

calendar like mine. And

13:22

I know from past experience I would

13:24

be miserable if I took on all

13:26

of the calendar clutter, what I perceive

13:29

to be calendar clutter. It

13:31

doesn't mean it's clutter for him, even if it's

13:33

clutter for me. And so back to your previous

13:35

analogy, if I asked you to come in an

13:37

hour earlier today, and you said no, and I

13:40

just followed up and said, well, what do you have going

13:42

on? Now, you could say

13:44

I have nothing going on, but

13:46

that is the presence of absence.

13:48

Maybe that nothing is something to

13:51

you, and that nothing there that

13:53

you have in your calendar is

13:55

actually the space that you

13:57

need for calm and peace.

14:00

so you can show up here and

14:02

be the best version of TK Coleman.

14:05

This is why whenever anyone hits me up with

14:07

the whole thing of TK, what are you doing

14:09

tonight? What are you doing Saturday

14:11

night? I never answer that question because

14:13

there's no reason for me to empower

14:15

people with the opportunity to make judgments

14:17

about what I am or am not

14:19

doing. If I have plans, doesn't matter.

14:21

If I don't have plans, it doesn't

14:24

matter. Let's get this conversation centered around

14:26

what it's really about. You're not asking

14:28

with curiosity when I'm up to, there's

14:30

something that you need. What

14:32

do you need? Now, there's nothing that you need and

14:34

that assumption is false. It's going to become clear when

14:36

I ask that question. My first response

14:38

to, what are you doing Saturday night? What

14:41

do you need? What do you want me to do?

14:43

Either I can do it or I can't. Either I'm

14:46

willing to do it or I can't. I'm just going

14:48

to be direct and honest and compassionate

14:50

about the way I answer that. Sometimes

14:52

what happens is we say things like,

14:54

hey, what are you doing Saturday night?

14:57

The other person says nothing. Then

14:59

we go, well, hey, can you come to my party? The

15:01

other person's like, no, man, I won't be there. It's like,

15:03

well, wait a minute. I just asked you what

15:06

you were doing. You said nothing. That

15:08

gives me the right to judge you for

15:10

turning down the opportunity to do whatever it

15:12

is I'm inviting you to do. That's not

15:14

how it works. When that other person says

15:16

nothing, that doesn't mean that they are

15:18

available to any request that you have.

15:20

It just might mean that nothing is

15:22

the most important thing for them to

15:24

be doing that Saturday night. Because their

15:26

nothing is something to them. They want

15:28

that open space and it doesn't mean

15:31

that they're hoarding it. It's not a

15:33

pathology. They want that open

15:35

space in their calendar or in their

15:37

garage. Let's get practical for a moment

15:39

with Janice here. Malabam you

15:41

remember a few years ago when we first

15:43

started renting this beautiful studio space, we had

15:46

a lot more equipment as we were

15:48

building out the studio and we needed

15:50

somewhere to store it temporarily. There

15:53

is a little annex downstairs

15:56

and I went to them and I asked

15:58

them, hey, is anyone using this? that, which

16:00

was actually the wrong question to ask because

16:02

TK just highlighted it because no, no one

16:04

was using it, right? And

16:06

my question is, great, can I pay

16:08

you to use it for a period of

16:11

time, for six months? And

16:13

the answer to that was yes. I

16:16

negotiated it beforehand, and

16:19

that allowed us to come to

16:21

an agreement. Now if they

16:23

said no, well then

16:26

I would have to find a different space. And

16:29

you can talk to someone, you can ask the

16:31

question, you can even get curious. But it's not,

16:33

hey, what are you using that shelf in your

16:35

garage for? Because the

16:37

answer might be nothing. But that's

16:39

exactly what they want to use

16:41

that shelf for. They don't want

16:43

your stuff on their shelf. And

16:45

quite often, when we feel entitled

16:48

to that, that's not the other person's

16:50

problem. Janice, this isn't your landlord's problem.

16:53

It's a problem with entitlement. And if I

16:55

felt entitled to that annex that was downstairs

16:58

that we were using, Mallory, oh, that is

17:00

mine because you're not using it, you know

17:02

what happens there, the problem

17:05

is mine. And it's easier for

17:07

me to let go of the entitlement.

17:09

Otherwise I'm going to get dragged by

17:11

my expectation of the other party. I

17:15

just want to put on the record too that I

17:17

do believe that greed is a thing. I

17:20

do believe that selfishness is a thing. And

17:22

I do believe that the ideal way to

17:24

be as a human being is

17:27

to be generous with the things

17:29

that you have that can improve other people's

17:31

lives. If you have extra storage space, extra

17:34

stuff, and you see someone in need

17:36

or someone makes a need known to

17:38

you, the ideal way to be is

17:40

to help them to the best of

17:42

your ability. So I think that's a

17:44

real thing. And I do condemn greed

17:47

and selfishness. However, it's

17:49

just important to be cautious

17:51

in the judgments we make about who

17:53

is greedy and who is selfish. Why?

17:56

Because every single one of us is

17:58

greedy or selfish in someone. else's

18:00

eyes. How do I know that to be true?

18:02

Because no matter who you are, even if your

18:04

brand is to be generous, even if you really

18:06

are as generous as you think you are to

18:08

be, even if you have a

18:11

sign on your front lawn that says,

18:13

I am generous, come in and take

18:15

whatever it is you need. There's someone

18:17

somewhere who sees your lifestyle

18:19

as being more abundant than it needs

18:21

to be. There's someone somewhere who has

18:23

different ideas than you about how you

18:26

ought to use your time, your energy,

18:28

your attention, and your other resources. And

18:30

they judge you for the way that you

18:32

live your life, even if you feel very

18:34

good about it. So all of us are

18:37

greedy and selfish in someone else's eyes. And

18:39

so we have to be careful about assuming

18:41

that people are greedy or selfish just because

18:43

they're not using their resources in the way

18:45

that we think they ought to be. Janice,

18:47

I'd love to continue this conversation with you.

18:49

In fact, we're coming to San Diego. We

18:51

have two tour stops left on the Everything

18:53

Tour. I'd love to see

18:56

you over there. You can get your free

18:58

tickets over at theminimalists.com slash

19:00

tour. We'll be in San Diego in June

19:02

and in July. We're ending the tour in

19:05

San Francisco. Now in San Diego, we have

19:07

a very special guest who's going to be

19:09

there. Our friend Colin Wright, he's the person

19:11

who introduced me to minimalism. He has a

19:13

brand new book coming out. It's called How

19:16

to Turn 39. He's going to be on

19:18

the podcast.

19:20

We're going to talk about Aging Gracefully.

19:22

The book isn't actually about turning 39.

19:25

That is a synecdoche, as we talked

19:27

about a couple episodes ago. It's a

19:29

metaphor for aging gracefully. And

19:31

so Colin Wright's going to be here in

19:34

the studio. He'll also be at our live

19:36

event in San Diego. You can

19:38

see him there. You can see us there, Janice, and

19:40

we'll have a... We'll carry on

19:42

this conversation. Maybe you have some more details for

19:44

us, or we'll see you in San Francisco as

19:46

well. To anyone else who wants to join

19:48

us, there are still a few free tickets

19:50

left. One last thing for Janice.

19:53

I'd love for her to download a free

19:55

version of Emotional Clutter. It's T.K. Coleman's book,

19:57

because part of what's happening here, there's no

19:59

real clutter. There's a lot of

20:01

emotional clutter here. What

20:03

I'm noticing whenever I make

20:05

a judgment like that, a

20:08

judgment of resentment or anger

20:10

or frustration, oh, it's cluttering

20:12

up my interior life. And

20:15

so yeah, I might've dealt with all that

20:17

external clutter, but it opens up what's

20:20

going on inside me in my head, in

20:22

my heart. And part of that

20:24

is the emotional clutter that we carry around. And quite

20:26

often we don't realize we're carrying it around. TK

20:29

wrote this great book. You can download

20:31

it for free at theminimalists.com/emotional clutter. We'll

20:33

put a link to that in the

20:35

show notes. Or if you want to

20:37

listen to it, we did an audiobook

20:39

version of that as well. And we

20:42

recorded a little micro podcast between every

20:44

chapter TK and I did, where we

20:46

discussed the chapter and the lessons

20:48

that we learned about our own

20:50

journey of letting go of all

20:52

that emotional baggage, that emotional clutter

20:54

that was weighing us down. Before

20:57

we get back to our callers, Malabama, what

20:59

time is it? You know what time it is.

21:01

It's time for the lightning round, where we answer

21:04

the Patreon community chats question of the

21:06

week. Yes, indeed. Now during the lightning

21:08

round, we each have 60 seconds to

21:10

answer this question of the week. We

21:13

use a minimal maximum. It's a little

21:15

pithy, short, shareable, less than 140 character

21:18

response, a little aphorism. We call

21:20

them minimal maxims. You can find

21:22

all the minimal maxims at minimalmaxims.com.

21:24

You can find the minimal maxims

21:27

for this week in the show

21:29

notes over at theminimalists.com/podcast. And if

21:31

you'd like those minimal maxims

21:33

and the show notes delivered to your

21:35

inbox every Monday, we'll do that.

21:38

We'll never send you spam or junk

21:40

or advertisements. But if you're on our

21:42

email and newsletter over at theminimalists.email, we'll

21:44

send you the show notes. We'll send

21:47

you five or 10 minimal maxims every

21:50

Monday in that one email to

21:52

start your week off with a

21:54

bit of simplicity. Malabama, what's the

21:56

question of the week this week?

21:58

What's one thing you're unwinnying? willing

22:00

to share. Ooh, so

22:02

this will spawn initially from

22:04

Janice's question, right? What's

22:07

a thing I'm unwilling to share? And

22:09

maybe through the reification process, something

22:12

I'm not willing to share is the absence

22:15

of the thing or the presence of

22:17

absence. If I have a

22:19

bunch of open space, if I go to

22:21

a beautiful museum and I

22:24

look at this and say, oh,

22:26

there's so much empty space here.

22:29

I should be able to store my extra toilet paper in

22:31

this museum. They're going to look at you like, wait

22:34

a minute. No, like we, this empty

22:36

space is intentional. We're not space

22:39

hoarding. We've done this

22:41

through the deliberate action of trying

22:43

to highlight what is in this

22:45

space. And so

22:47

TK, what's one thing you're unwilling

22:50

to share? Give me something pithy

22:52

here. I would say,

22:54

uh, never share the things that compromise

22:56

or capacity to share. One

22:59

of my favorite quotes is from Dr.

23:01

Phyllis Hubbard who says, give from your

23:03

excess, not from your essence.

23:05

I believe in self sacrifice, but not

23:08

self negation. Self sacrifices when you endure

23:10

pain or inconvenience in order to be

23:12

generous toward someone who's in need. Self

23:15

negation is when you say, I'm

23:17

going to disregard my own mental

23:19

health, my own wellness, and I'm

23:22

going to be led or governed

23:24

by guilt in my efforts to do

23:26

things for others. There are so many people out there

23:28

who are burned out and who

23:31

eventually render themselves incapable of acting on

23:33

their desire to be generous because they're

23:35

so governed by guilt that they abandoned

23:37

the consideration of their own wellbeing. And

23:39

I think that's what Dr. Hubbard describes

23:41

as giving from your essence. I believe

23:43

in giving from your excess, take care

23:46

of yourself, not in a way that's

23:48

selfish, but in a way that cultivates

23:50

health. And then from that state of

23:52

being healthy, do the best that you

23:54

can to help others get there as

23:56

well. That's so powerful because we can't

23:58

really figure out what our excess is

24:01

until we found out what is enough

24:03

for us. And

24:05

enough is what you're talking about with

24:07

respect to the essence. Giving when you

24:09

have just enough, and if you're giving

24:11

from that, you're giving from your essence.

24:14

You're actually taking away from yourself. We

24:16

have a colloquial term there we call

24:18

people pleasers, right? And

24:20

we've all, I mean, at least most of us have fought

24:24

that battle of, oh, I keep

24:26

trying to please other people because

24:28

I want to be liked so

24:30

much that I'm giving

24:32

from my essence. I don't have

24:34

enough to give, so I'm going

24:36

to give from my essence. I've

24:38

got something to pithy for you.

24:41

The key to freedom is

24:43

a willingness to walk away. Now,

24:47

T.K. might append that. He might say it's

24:49

the ability to walk away. We've had this

24:51

conversation on the show before. And

24:54

I agree with that. Even the ability to

24:56

walk away is important. And

25:00

however, I think even

25:02

being willing to walk away from

25:04

things that feel like they add

25:06

tremendous value to your life is

25:09

really where freedom comes into play.

25:12

I know for me personally, I can walk away from

25:14

anything, and it's taken a long time to be able

25:16

to get there. But

25:18

I can walk away, not just from material possessions.

25:21

That's way easier for me now. So when I

25:23

first started with the whole minimalism thing, I couldn't

25:26

let go of anything. That's why we started the

25:28

30-day minimalism game. Before that, it was just, can

25:30

I let go of one item a day for

25:32

30 days? And

25:35

at first, I'm like, I don't know. I don't

25:37

even know where to get started. I've got so

25:40

many things, and it's so important to me not

25:42

realizing, no, this stuff isn't my

25:45

essence. It is my excess. And

25:48

so I had to go through and identify what are

25:50

the things that are nonessential, what are the things that

25:52

are junk, and then what are

25:54

the things that are actually essential to

25:57

My way of life, to my own

25:59

well-being, right? But. After the

26:01

material possessions, I realize I can let go

26:03

of a marriage. I can let go of

26:05

an intimate relationship I can like or friendships

26:08

that are toxic. I can let go of

26:10

my home with the has too many square

26:12

feet for me, it's no longer appropriate for

26:15

me. I can let go

26:17

of my car. I can let go

26:19

of my career. Recently we let go

26:21

of social media. Not

26:23

in a dogmatic. Way.

26:25

Or away that renounces the thing. But.

26:27

In a way that steps away from and says you

26:30

know what? I. Can let go

26:32

of that. I can

26:34

let go and make room. I

26:36

can make the. I. Can increase my presence

26:39

of absence and then I get to decide

26:41

what I do with that nothingness In if

26:43

I don't want to do anything with that

26:46

extra space, I think so either. Fallacies that

26:48

we. We often get into.

26:50

we clear out a closet and it

26:52

becomes recorder it was. Because.

26:54

We feel compelled to fill up every

26:56

nook and cranny and if you have

26:59

an empty room. I remember I had

27:01

a big house in the suburbs of

27:03

state know Heil and we had a

27:05

couple spare bedrooms, a couple spare bedrooms.

27:08

And I felt compelled to fill

27:10

them with stuff allies that because

27:12

I was. A. Little. Terrified.

27:15

Of the presence of absence.

27:17

I was terrified of the

27:19

empty space. Or you want

27:21

to be a a space hoarder anima.

27:24

Think about it in those terms of

27:26

the time. but I really was uncomfortable.

27:28

With. The. Stillness with the

27:30

comments, which absolutely happens. Now

27:32

we're not just addicted to

27:35

the things, were addicted to

27:37

the been on things. These

27:39

glowing screams a as the

27:42

notifications. These are all non

27:44

things that distract us from.

27:47

The. Presence of being more the

27:49

presence of. absence smell

27:51

of a we reached out to our

27:53

folks on page three on as the

27:56

patriarch community and we had to dozens

27:58

or maybe hundreds of responses to

28:00

this question, what's one thing you're

28:02

unwilling to share? Let's

28:04

talk about what some people said. Yeah,

28:07

as far as physical things, Monica

28:09

said, my ATV four-wheeler, that's my

28:12

happy place. Ride with someone else.

28:15

And I think that's why I asked the question this way,

28:18

is unwilling to share. Quite often,

28:20

people, when you enjoy something, you

28:23

actually will share it more. In

28:26

fact, that could even be a separate problem.

28:29

Don't you think TK, when you learn something

28:31

new and you just wanna teach everyone about

28:33

it, right? There's this effect

28:35

called the Dunning-Kruger effect, where as soon as

28:37

someone thinks they know a little bit about

28:40

something, they have become an expert about it.

28:42

And of course, that is amplified by the

28:44

internet. Everyone who has read

28:46

one blog post on minimalism is

28:48

now a minimalist, right? Or

28:51

has written one essay, has

28:53

now become a writer. And I get

28:56

the essence of that. But what happens is we

28:59

feel really compelled to

29:01

compel other people to

29:03

our worldview. But I

29:05

found with Monica, with something like

29:07

an ATV or a four-wheeler, yeah,

29:10

you may not want to share it if you're using

29:12

it, but the question is, would

29:14

sharing it ever enhance my

29:16

relationship with others or even

29:18

enhance my relationship with the

29:20

ATV and four-wheeler? I

29:22

think about when we, once a year, we tend

29:25

to go do this paintball thing as a team

29:27

and we bring the whole team out. And

29:29

now imagine if you, Malabem, you just went

29:31

out there by yourself. Not

29:33

nearly as fun. No, not at

29:36

all. It is amplified

29:38

by that communal experience. However, there

29:40

are some things, and maybe for

29:42

Monica, writing the ATV or four-wheeler

29:45

is a solo endeavor. And that's where

29:47

you get your piece. And I think

29:49

that's totally okay too. What

29:52

else we got? We had another one from

29:54

Mahalia. They said, my leftovers from a restaurant.

29:56

I Look forward to them all day and

29:59

get so sad. Then when eats them without

30:01

letting me know we're asking? Me: I totally relate

30:03

to this. I'm a little territorial was sharing

30:05

my food. Or

30:08

you know what's funny is sometimes

30:10

I will say one thing but

30:12

do the opposite rates and and

30:15

so. I. Feel pretty

30:17

similarly, except I'm always grabbing stuff

30:19

off of backs as plates and

30:21

eating her things and vice versa.

30:23

But if a random person in

30:26

a restaurant. Where. Does come up

30:28

and grab something. I am I Okay,

30:30

oh my stars. a society. So I

30:32

think sharing his contextual here is. well,

30:34

rights is it's what I really care

30:36

about. Actually want to share the things

30:38

I enjoy with them. Caviar

30:40

as long as they wanted to.

30:43

Otherwise, I'm coercing member for some.

30:45

If you've gotta try, this thing

30:47

is way less bloodless, pleasurable If

30:49

you're forcing some once into are

30:52

indulging in the things that you

30:54

enjoy. And there's also the idea

30:56

of implicit consent in the relationship

30:59

you have with backs. There's a

31:01

shared understanding that what's yours is

31:03

hers unless otherwise stated, so she

31:05

can take food from your plate

31:08

with an understanding that. You.

31:10

Already consent to that without her needing to

31:12

ask, right? My wife doesn't have to ask

31:14

me, can see, use a pencil or conceives

31:16

my car, it's already given. When the strange

31:18

does it, it's like what the heck Man,

31:20

we don't have their shared understanding right here

31:22

and as you get to know some all

31:24

the better bucks an hour at the grocery

31:26

store the other down like going to buy

31:28

one is honey crisp apples and dad you

31:30

owe me to do you want goes cause

31:32

of a couple bites of yours and I

31:34

said no you can't buy the buy you

31:36

another one ah I'm going to eat the

31:38

whole thing and very that understanding. She knows

31:40

enough because sometimes I'm I say yeah,

31:42

I'm only going to eat half of

31:45

this. Of course you can is of

31:47

simply asking the question non judgmental. It's

31:49

helped her determine whether or not we

31:51

should buy a second apple. In that

31:53

scenario, thera had some before us. Sarah

31:56

said my bad, my sleep is

31:58

so precious. To me, my partner. Around

32:00

snores and like the room temperature warmer

32:02

than I like we sleep in separate

32:05

rooms. He also tends to sleep later

32:07

than I do after a whole day

32:09

of dealing with lice. Laying in my

32:12

com sea bed and drifting off to

32:14

sleep is just sublime. You know,

32:16

or rather, infamous. Way back then

32:18

I live apart about half the

32:21

time and saw this resonates with

32:23

me. Although I'm a big time

32:25

smuggler and the smuggling is so

32:27

much more precious because I don't

32:29

have access to it all the

32:31

time, Pass the time I have

32:33

the presence of absence right? There

32:36

is an empty space there. But.

32:38

Then it makes his other times when

32:40

there isn't it makes that more joyous

32:43

for me. And so I totally get

32:45

were Sarah's coming from and facts we

32:47

can all smear. Now we look at

32:49

old movies when they had separate beds

32:51

in their bedroom where they lit they

32:53

they slept in separate bedrooms. But the

32:55

truth is that. A better

32:57

night's sleep generally does come from.

32:59

They've been tons of sleep studies

33:01

around there since Matthew Walker has

33:03

written about it as well. Generally.

33:06

What happens when you are next to

33:09

someone? they're going to disturb your restful

33:11

sleep. You're deep sleep and their their

33:13

ways to track practice as well but

33:15

that that's okay if you're willing to

33:17

give up a little bit of sleep

33:19

because it is important to you than

33:21

than x whole lot of sense. but

33:24

a Sarah does not want to share

33:26

her bed with anyone. That.

33:28

Totally makes sense to me. When. I like

33:30

about this too is the. The. Subjectivity of

33:32

non negotiable. so it's gonna be different for

33:34

every person. But they're all equally valuable because

33:37

it's your identification of what you need to

33:39

do in order to be the best that

33:41

you can be for others. And if you

33:43

really easy for us a waxy know you're

33:45

supposed to be sleeping with your partner. They

33:48

are. You know what? You're right Sarah, This

33:50

is the correct way to do it. Never

33:52

one who's now sleeping with their partner in

33:54

their bed. That's the wrong way to do

33:56

it alone. For. whom it's right for

33:58

whom and wrong for was a great way

34:01

to think about any material possession. It's also a

34:03

great way to think about the empty space that

34:06

we have. Four people, Taylor,

34:08

Kat, Myrna, and Ona all said

34:10

one thing. What'd they say, Bama?

34:13

They said my toothbrush. All

34:15

right. So you're not willing to

34:17

share your toothbrush. I'm on board

34:19

with that one. Yeah, it's kind of gross. Although,

34:22

Beck just steal mine from time to time

34:24

and use it. So I guess

34:26

I am, in a way, willing to share it with

34:28

her. You're not willing to share it. You're just more

34:30

forgiving of her act of theft. That's

34:33

for forgiveness, not for permission. I can see

34:35

the judgment in your eye. You're

34:38

a judge of the air. And even on that, Kat,

34:40

Delora, and Shania, and Rihanna also

34:42

said underwear. That's a tricky one

34:44

to share as well. Yeah, yeah. I

34:46

just don't wear them. And then you're fine. Nothing

34:49

to share. It's

34:51

the presence of absence. What

34:55

about Nikki? What did Nikki say here? This was

34:57

cool. Relationship details is what

35:00

they're not willing to share. Everyone's

35:02

relationship works differently. And I think

35:04

what can start sometimes as advice

35:06

or venting can end up bad.

35:09

I recently read the quote, when the fox

35:11

hears the rabbit scream, he comes running,

35:13

but not to help. That really

35:15

stuck with me. And I'm more cognizant about

35:18

how much I share and how much I

35:20

open up to new people. Yeah,

35:22

I think many of us, we

35:24

often become diuretic when it comes

35:27

to sharing life details that no

35:29

one wants to hear. But

35:32

the opposite of that is other people prying

35:34

into your details that you simply don't want

35:36

to share, but you feel like you have

35:38

to or you're compelled to because someone else

35:41

might be interested in it. It would be

35:43

rude if I didn't share this. But

35:45

it's OK to say that's not something that

35:47

I'm comfortable sharing. But

35:49

the other part is sometimes we're

35:51

over comfortable sharing. The biggest

35:54

thing I've noticed since leaving social media is

35:58

I wasn't even on social media that much. But

36:00

I found that I was sharing bits

36:02

of my life that I'm looking at now like

36:04

why was I sharing a photo of? The

36:07

coffee shop that I was at or whatever

36:09

it might be not that it was wrong

36:11

to do so But I'm literally question why

36:14

was I compelled to do that?

36:17

Which is an interesting question that I don't

36:19

think I was asking as much two

36:21

months ago Yeah, you know when

36:23

it comes to sharing information about relationships, too.

36:25

I look at it as Me

36:28

having two jobs one is to get the help that

36:30

I need to be the best that I can be

36:32

in my relationships But the other is

36:34

to preserve the dignity of the people with

36:36

whom I'm in relationship Yeah So if if

36:39

I'm having an issue with Josh I

36:41

need to have someone I can talk to about

36:43

that to get that help But

36:46

if I just you know Just go to any

36:48

random person and be like man Josh is tripping

36:50

today That doesn't really preserve the dignity of my

36:53

friend that leaves his reputation out to dry in

36:55

a way that doesn't really speak to the respect

36:57

That I have for him And if Josh and

36:59

I clear up our issues and get back on

37:01

the right track I have someone who doesn't have

37:04

that history with him who doesn't have that love

37:06

for him and Might not be able

37:08

to see him through the eyes of charity and

37:10

complexity that I can see him through and so

37:12

it's important that we Think about who is someone

37:14

that I can trust who is someone that will

37:16

keep this? Information private and who is

37:18

someone that will do things with it

37:20

that are respectful to my partner or

37:22

my friend There were so many

37:25

people who left comments on this about things

37:27

they're willing to share and and not willing

37:29

to share Let's wrap up

37:31

with this one Iris Becky and Brie

37:33

all said the same thing Malabama are

37:35

not willing to share their husband ladies.

37:38

Don't knock it till you try it

37:40

I Know

37:44

it's definitely not forever, but I will

37:46

say this you already do share your

37:48

husband all the time I understand the

37:50

essence of what you're saying here This

37:52

is a in a monogamous context and

37:54

totally fine If two human beings

37:56

have that shared relationship where they've decided

37:59

they're not going to share their

38:01

partner sexually and both people have not been

38:03

coerced into it. Monogamy

38:06

is a wonderful technology in that setting. But

38:08

it doesn't mean that you don't share them in

38:11

other contexts. Does your husband go to work? If

38:13

so, he's sharing his attention with

38:15

other people. Or does he have

38:17

friends that he talks to from time to time?

38:19

Oh, well then you're sharing him with friends. And

38:21

so in a narrow sense, I

38:24

know what you mean, but more broadly,

38:26

of course, we do not

38:29

have full dominion, at least it doesn't make

38:31

sense to have full dominion over another human

38:34

being. Yeah, my

38:37

version of that, my husband, my books, I don't

38:39

share my books, but I will give them

38:41

away. Like if you see a book

38:43

on my shelf and you're honest with me and you say you'll

38:45

read that and you want it, I'll just give it to you.

38:47

That doesn't count as sharing? No, we

38:49

don't intend to have it back. Exactly. Like

38:51

I'm not going to do that to us because

38:53

if I loan you that book, now

38:56

I'm placing an expectation on you that you're going

38:58

to give it back to me in a condition

39:00

that I value and I'm setting you

39:02

up for failure and I'm setting myself up to

39:04

resent you. So no need for me to

39:06

do that. It's the same logic according to which I

39:08

don't borrow books because I know how I'm going to

39:10

treat the book. I'm going to underline things that's going

39:12

to make you upset. I'm going to save us both

39:14

from that. I'll just buy it myself. And if I

39:16

can't afford to buy it, I'll wait. Yeah.

39:19

So in one sense, you are not sharing in the sense

39:21

that like, I'm not going to loan this out to you,

39:23

but in another sense, several other senses, you are sharing and

39:26

I will give this to you. That's a

39:28

type of sharing. Or if you're just saying,

39:30

I really found value in Colin Wright's book,

39:32

How to Turn 39. And

39:35

you're sharing that wisdom. Even if you don't

39:37

give me the book, you're sharing something that

39:39

you found value from. In fact, that's on

39:42

the private podcast, we have an added value

39:44

segment. Every week we share something that we

39:46

found value in. It doesn't mean I'm giving

39:48

you the physical copy. I'm loaning it to

39:50

you. That is something that I

39:53

found value in. So I want to share it

39:55

with other people who may or may not get

39:57

value from it as well. Now we're just getting

39:59

started. Armful of callers to

40:01

talk to on the private podcast, but

40:03

first real quick for right here right

40:05

now Here's one thing

40:07

that's going on in the life

40:09

of the minimalist. We're calling it

40:12

Thursday conversations Tk Coleman recently started

40:14

hosting this weekly video series of

40:16

video conversations with some of the

40:18

most interesting people that

40:21

he'd like you to meet each episode is like Eavesdropping

40:24

on a facetime call between two

40:26

really fascinating people a new convo

40:28

is published each Thursday exclusively

40:31

on Patreon if you

40:33

missed the first four episodes there was

40:35

one with Malabama recently That was so

40:37

much fun Tk's wife Tk's brother and

40:39

several other people if you missed any

40:41

of those first four episodes you can

40:43

find those on Patreon as

40:45

well, Malabama what else you got for

40:47

us? Here's a minimalist insight from one of

40:49

our listeners Hi, this

40:52

is Melissa in Las Vegas, Nevada, and I am

40:54

a patreon supporter I love the way

40:56

you reframed OCD Josh in the restraint episode

40:59

My OCD has never been anything but a strength for

41:01

me as a person who works in the food industry Attention

41:04

to detail is critical and I'm the one

41:06

my superiors generally rely on to make

41:08

sure things go smoothly and follow protocols

41:10

for cleanliness and sanitation I am

41:13

at the point where I can catch myself when I am over

41:15

the top of my day-to-day life But I otherwise embraced my

41:17

OCD instead of apologizing for it Melissa,

41:20

thank you so much for that insightful

41:22

comment for anyone else who has a

41:25

listener tip or insight about this episode

41:27

or any other Episode leave a comment

41:29

on patreon or YouTube or better yet

41:32

Send a voice memo to podcast at

41:34

the minimalist calm so we can feature

41:36

your voice on the show All right.

41:39

That's the first 25 percent of episode

41:43

443 we'll see you on patreon for the full Maximal

41:45

edition which includes answers to a bunch

41:48

more questions Like how do I let

41:50

go of a family member who is

41:52

making my life? Unbearably

41:54

difficult. Where do I start if

41:57

I hate my life and even though

41:59

I'm married? I feel alone. Should

42:03

I minimize my sick pet if I'm

42:05

unable to take care of him? Plus

42:07

a million more questions and simple living

42:10

segments over on the Minimalist Private Podcast.

42:12

We also have an outstanding home tour

42:14

from one of our listeners this week

42:16

on Patreon. Visit patreon.com/The Minimalist

42:18

or click the link down in

42:20

the description to subscribe and get

42:22

your personal link so that our

42:24

weekly maximal episodes play in your

42:26

favorite podcast app. You'll also gain

42:28

access to all of our podcast

42:30

archives all the way back to

42:32

episode 001. That's

42:34

right, all of our archives are over

42:36

there on Patreon. By the way, Patreon

42:38

is now offering free trials. So if

42:40

you'd like to test drive our private

42:42

podcast, you can join for seven days

42:44

for free. And that is our

42:46

minimal episode for today. If you leave here with just

42:49

one message, let it be this. Love

42:52

people and use things. Because

42:56

the opposite never works. Thanks for

42:59

listening, y'all. We'll see you next time. Peace.

43:02

Every little thing you think

43:05

that you need. Every

43:08

little thing you think that you

43:10

need. Every

43:12

little thing that you see in

43:14

your greed. Oh, I bet

43:17

that you'll be fine without it.