0:05

Hello

0:05

and welcome to the Natural State Podcast.

0:08

I'm your host, Dr. Anthony Gustin. It

0:10

is my belief that the natural state of any living

0:12

organism's health and that our artificial

0:14

habitat has forced us into having artificial

0:16

health problems. This show is my attempt

0:18

to dive deep and learn about using nutrition, sleep,

0:21

movement, relationships, and more to help

0:23

you reclaim your natural state of health in a

0:25

modern world and show you how to thrive in an environment

0:28

that's stacked against you. If you enjoy

0:30

today's show, you can find out more details and information

0:33

at dranthonygustin.com.

0:35

Today on the Natural State Podcast,

0:38

I am honored to have Dr. Casey Means

0:41

on the show. This is not Cali Means. You

0:43

have her brother on here, just

0:45

the powerhouse of the family. Casey is

0:47

a medical doctor and she

0:50

is one of the co-founders of Lovells. Lovells

0:52

is a company that helps people get their metabolic

0:54

health back on track. We

0:57

talk a lot about that today in the episode of

0:59

metabolic health, why it's so important, but beyond

1:01

that, tons of just philosophizing,

1:04

I'd say, around why we're in the

1:06

state we're in from a national health crisis where

1:09

the vast majority of people are sick, overweight,

1:12

and honestly in a miserable state and what you can

1:14

do practically to get out of that. Lovells

1:17

is doing a lot of work to do that, obviously, and they're

1:19

doing a great job. We dive

1:22

into tons of different facets around how you

1:24

can reverse a lot of issues that might be holding

1:26

you back from reaching your peak state

1:29

of health. On top of that, Dr.

1:31

Means was very generous to

1:34

be able to offer

1:35

a potential to win a free Lovells

1:38

kit, which comes with a

1:40

continuous blood glucose monitor, an annual

1:42

membership to the Lovells program.

1:46

If you want to go to lovells.link

1:48

slash the natural state and input

1:51

your information, we're doing a giveaway where you can get

1:53

a free kit. Just put in your email, nothing

1:56

else needed. You don't have to buy anything. There's

1:58

a chance to win a free kit to see.

1:59

what it's like wearing a continuous blood glucose

2:02

monitor. I've posted about this for

2:04

a lot and I've used it a lot in my life and I use

2:06

a lot with patients as well. Just to get some feedback

2:09

of what actually happens when you eat certain

2:11

foods and it's remarkable how different it is from

2:13

person to person. So again head

2:16

to levels.link, L-I-N-K

2:19

slash the natural state

2:22

for your chance to win. And

2:24

other than that, tune in and I hope you enjoy the show.

2:28

Before we get into the show I'd like to introduce equip

2:31

foods if you guys haven't heard about it. The

2:33

brand that I started many years ago at this

2:35

point have kind of been off and on

2:38

with it throughout the years but we're starting to revive a

2:40

lot of the principles. I made it to

2:42

make real food supplementation a thing.

2:44

There were so many people in my

2:46

clinic that I dealt with that were struggling

2:49

with finding real food options. Of

2:51

course I think people should be eating real food. Of course

2:54

and it should be based upon local food as close

2:56

to them as possible. I don't care if it's plants or

2:58

animals. You do you. However

3:01

I made equip foods to be able to supplement, again

3:03

supplement not replace real

3:05

food. And so we created a line

3:07

a long time ago of beef protein

3:10

powder, sweet potato powder, greens powder etc.

3:12

to augment maybe areas where

3:14

you have like a convenience you need to fill in the gaps

3:17

etc. Traveling, what

3:19

have you. We're starting to add

3:21

a lot of products to the line and I'm really excited about these again. This

3:24

is something that you know it's been a project I had

3:26

to put on hold and it was just kind of an autopilot while

3:28

I was working on perfect keto for so many

3:30

years. And now that that is

3:32

off my plate we are focusing on

3:34

reviving a lot of the principles that we had early on and reimagining

3:37

what are the things that we should have that exist

3:40

for people.

3:41

And a

3:41

big one moving forward is you know

3:44

an unflavored grass-fed protein. So we launched

3:46

for all you carnivores out there an unflavored

3:49

grass-fed protein. Literally the only ingredient

3:51

in this is grass-fed meat.

3:53

And so we take huge chunks of

3:55

meat, chop it down, boil

3:57

it down. It's representative of college

4:00

and meat production. So essentially, you're getting like 30%

4:02

collagen, gelatin, and then the rest,

4:04

like you would say out of a way, so amino

4:07

acids that are found in meat. So it's exactly representative

4:09

of what is in a

4:11

animal.

4:12

Each scoop is about four ounces of meat. And

4:15

if the unflavored is a little too spicy

4:17

for you guys, we also have amazing flavors that

4:19

are, you know, just cacao powder, and stevia,

4:22

vanilla, strawberry, and launching

4:24

a peanut butter one as well soon.

4:27

So if you guys wanna try prime protein,

4:29

which is our grass-fed beef protein, or

4:32

any other stuff that we have on there, we have liver caps,

4:34

gonna be doing some awesome new products as well, go ahead

4:37

and check them out, equipfoods.com. And

4:40

if you wanna have a little discount, it's your first

4:42

time, feel free to enter in the code TNS

4:45

for the natural state, TNS, for 15%

4:49

off. Or just go ahead and go to equipfoods.com

4:52

slash TNS, and we'll

4:54

put together a little page for you there to get 15% off. And

4:56

really wanna just say thank you and

4:59

appreciate your support. This

5:01

podcast is not free to produce,

5:04

it's not free to do the newsletter, it's pretty expensive

5:06

actually to host all the subscribers we have on there. And

5:09

your support here helps me start doing, you know,

5:12

more research, and hopefully

5:14

putting out some more products, more episodes, and

5:16

allows me to dedicate time to doing this stuff, which

5:18

I love to do for sure, but it is a lot

5:21

of time and it's a lot of work. So I really appreciate

5:23

your support here. So again, if you wanna try out

5:25

equipfoods, just go to equipfoods.com

5:28

slash TNS or use the code TNS

5:30

at checkout for 15% off.

5:33

Doc, I have an important question for you. Yes. 50% of

5:35

people in the country or more, pre-diabetic

5:38

or type 2 diabetes, 70%

5:40

or more overweight or obese, 90%

5:43

or more metabolically broken. What

5:46

happened? I mean, also to put

5:48

some context, this wasn't the case 100 years ago,

5:50

these numbers were virtually zero.

5:52

So a lot of people think a lot

5:55

of different things, but curious your take. You

5:57

have to choose one and you have to answer in 30 seconds.

6:01

30 seconds. Oh, I like that challenge. Um,

6:04

it's the most important question

6:07

that we could be asking today. This,

6:10

what you just brought up in the question you just asked

6:12

is the

6:12

first order issue that

6:14

we need to be focusing on as a country. And I would

6:16

say above anything else.

6:18

And the reason for that is because all

6:21

societal problems,

6:23

all political, social

6:25

issues

6:25

arise from human

6:27

decision making that comes from a body

6:30

and a brain that's made of cells. And

6:32

right now the cells in the average

6:34

American body are broken and they're

6:37

broken because of metabolic dysfunction. And

6:39

that is largely preventable and reversible.

6:42

And so if we think about the highest leverage

6:44

things that we can do to empower

6:46

a more prosperous,

6:48

thriving, limitless population,

6:50

focusing on this exact issue is it.

6:53

So how did we get here? How did we get here so

6:55

rapidly over the last several decades?

6:58

My perspective is that it's because several

7:01

distinct factors of

7:03

our modern industrial quote unquote advanced

7:06

society are synergistically

7:08

hurting the specific part of

7:11

the cell that makes energy

7:13

the mitochondria. So you

7:16

look across several

7:18

different sort of pillars of what impacts

7:21

the mitochondria, the powerhouse of the cell, the thing

7:23

in the cell that makes the cellular energy that

7:25

drives every single chemical reaction in the body.

7:28

And you look at food, you look at

7:30

sleep, you look at chronic low grade

7:32

stress, you look at movement, you look at microbiome,

7:35

you look at the light we're being

7:36

exposed to,

7:37

you look at the temperatures we're being exposed to,

7:39

you look at the toxins we're

7:40

being exposed to.

7:42

On all eight of those vectors,

7:44

the way that society culture industry

7:47

has changed over the past 50 to 100 years

7:50

have all led to conditions in which we're basically

7:52

slaughtering mitochondrial health.

7:55

And so what that has led to is

7:57

an underpowered human body.

8:00

body. And, you know,

8:02

the body is made of somewhere between 30 and 100

8:04

trillion cells. It's hard to

8:06

know. We have about somewhere between

8:09

some, some say 37 trillion cells on

8:11

average in the human body and every single

8:13

cell is powered by cellular energy.

8:16

One of the key forms that energy is ATP. And

8:19

that's what the mitochondria make. And

8:22

unfortunately, that that process that

8:24

is foundational that underlies pretty much

8:26

everything is becoming

8:29

diminished. And so our life force,

8:31

our light, our power, our chi,

8:34

our yang, it's all it's all sort of diminishing.

8:37

And that's leading to both a metabolic

8:39

health crisis, a mental health crisis,

8:42

but I would also say a spiritual crisis in the

8:44

US because, you know, an underpowered

8:46

human is not one who is going to be able to,

8:48

you know, move towards their highest

8:50

purpose on this precious time on this planet.

8:53

And so we've got to really kind of fix this.

8:55

We have 200 plus cell

8:57

types in the body. So out of all these

9:00

trillions of cells, you know, we all started

9:02

as one cell, right? We've got this fertilized egg, it's

9:04

one cell. And from that we get trillions

9:06

and trillions of cells of over 200

9:09

types. And, you know,

9:12

a retina cell, many types of skin cells,

9:14

you've got your blood vessel lining

9:16

cells, muscle cells, all these different things. And

9:19

what's so interesting about our chronic disease epidemic, we've

9:21

got all these different diseases and all these different

9:23

symptoms. We've got, you know, we've got

9:25

depression and anxiety and gout and

9:27

polycystic ovarian syndrome and erectile dysfunction

9:30

and retinopathy and chronic kidney disease and Alzheimer's

9:32

dementia and cancer and strokes,

9:34

hemorrhagic strokes, ischemic strokes, heart attacks,

9:37

fatty liver disease, type 2 diabetes, obesity. And

9:40

people are starting to be aware that at their root,

9:42

almost all of these are rooted, not

9:44

exclusively caused by, but fundamentally

9:47

rooted or accelerated by metabolic issues. They're

9:50

all interlinked by a trunk

9:53

of a tree, physiologically, that is mitochondrial

9:55

dysfunction. And so

9:58

people say, the way our tradition is, is that we're going to be able to do this medical

10:00

system approaches all of these, of course, is different specialists.

10:03

We have 42 plus medical specialties.

10:05

You're getting different doctors, different prescriptions

10:08

for different, basically, manifestations of diseases

10:10

in different cell types, liver doctor, brain

10:12

doctor, whatever. And what we really

10:15

need to do is totally shift this paradigm

10:17

to really what I would consider

10:19

more of a network and systems biology approach

10:22

to health, which is instead of looking at all these different

10:24

things as different silos based on the

10:26

cell specific manifestation of

10:28

metabolic disease, actually look at

10:30

the network and the connectivity between all these conditions,

10:33

the links between these conditions, which is metabolic dysfunction,

10:35

mitochondrial dysfunction, and really

10:38

focused medicine and health care on that.

10:40

And I think what we will find is that when

10:42

you do that, a lot of these things just

10:44

start melting away because you're actually getting to the

10:47

root cause. So that's kind of the problem

10:49

we're dealing with in a nutshell is underpowered

10:51

cells, underpowered bodies, underpowered lives.

10:54

And I think the root of it is that our

10:57

mitochondria are being attacked at every

10:59

single aspect

11:01

of our diet and lifestyle by our modern

11:04

industrialized

11:05

culture. The way

11:07

I tend to think about it, which may be simple and stupid

11:09

and not correct, but it's basically

11:12

metabolism is how we stay

11:14

alive. And if that is,

11:17

we're not doing well there, bad things can

11:19

happen. And this is depending on

11:21

the individual variability, genetic predisposition,

11:24

lifestyle, et cetera, that can look very

11:26

different for the individual. And this is why we get

11:28

siloed into these different areas of

11:31

heart, doctor, liver, doctor, like you said, et cetera, goes

11:33

down the list. But what do you think

11:35

is like exactly in the last 50, 70, 100 years

11:38

has led to the

11:41

acceler- like this has been creeping up

11:43

over a long period of time, but something seemed

11:45

to have happened in that timeframe specifically

11:47

that really accelerated this. Do you have any initial

11:50

takes? You rattle off exposure to light,

11:53

movement, sleep, stress, food. I'm

11:55

sure we could add in relational health issues, mental

11:57

health issues, spiritual health issues.

12:00

air quality, water quality, pesticides,

12:02

herbicides, toxins that we're exposed to,

12:05

on and on and on. Do you have

12:07

any singular thing that you think about

12:09

that maybe is one of the primary drivers?

12:12

Yeah. I think that across those

12:14

eight vectors that I mentioned, and I put a lot

12:16

of the ones you just added under that chronic low-grade

12:18

stress, the mental and psychosocial

12:21

element of it, I think

12:23

that a lot of it comes down

12:26

to maybe two main things. One

12:29

is equating comfort with

12:31

success, and the second

12:33

is, I think, equating unlimited wealth

12:36

with success. I think it's mainly

12:38

those two things. I think that the first

12:41

one is this idea

12:44

of comfort is what we're aspiring

12:46

to.

12:47

In a sense,

12:49

if

12:50

you look at something like sedentary

12:52

behavior, so sort of the exercise vector,

12:55

the average American is walking about 4,000 steps

12:58

a day. If

13:00

you just walk 8,000 steps

13:03

a day, you slash your risk of heart disease,

13:05

diabetes, obesity, depression, Alzheimer's

13:07

by close to 50%, and we're walking 4,000.

13:10

It takes about an hour to walk 8,000 steps a day. It's

13:13

not hard. It's also free, but

13:16

we love sitting. We love our couches.

13:18

We love not having to move. We

13:21

build our entire houses around areas

13:24

to sit. This comfort, this

13:26

being indoors, being comfortable,

13:29

it's killing us. You look at temperature.

13:32

Large swings in temperature are energetic

13:35

thermal signals that can tell our

13:37

body to basically be more resilient, whether

13:39

it's cold or hot. They're both energetic

13:42

signals to impact our cellular biology,

13:44

but we've equated the thermostat

13:47

being at 72 degrees all

13:49

the time as prosperity. Now,

13:53

I've heard couples fight

13:55

over whether the thermostat is set

13:57

to 68 or 72. at

14:00

nighttime. And it's like, we believe

14:02

that that this thermonuteral existence

14:05

is like, Oh, we've we've hacked the code,

14:07

but we actually haven't. It's

14:09

similar to with food,

14:11

you know, it's like, we love

14:13

the comfort foods, we think they're delicious, but

14:16

eating more of them is killing us. And so

14:18

it's just and it's, you know, I

14:20

think that it's really, there's a spiritual

14:22

disconnect in a sense, because I

14:24

think that traditionally, and in so many cultures,

14:27

especially Eastern cultures, like, there's

14:29

been this long term sense that

14:32

dualities are important, you know, we

14:34

need, it's like, we've got light and dark,

14:37

we've got cold and hot, we've got wet and dry,

14:39

you know, there's the appreciation

14:42

for the moon cycles, the cyclical nature

14:44

of things, the seasons, these are meditated

14:47

on in literature and poetry and art.

14:49

And it's sort of this appreciation and

14:51

reverence for cycles and dualities,

14:54

polarities is very much appreciated.

14:57

And, you know, so it's like, there's times

14:59

where things are painful. And there's times when things are

15:02

more flow state, and we learn from

15:04

the pain to have the joy, you know, you need

15:06

the darkness to have the light. And we

15:10

are sort of in a culture now where we just

15:12

want, we just want the yang and

15:14

the light and the the the

15:16

company, you know, we don't we don't want the

15:19

extremes, we want sort of like almost

15:21

like the neutrality. And I think

15:23

that that's honestly like going against

15:26

the sort of like natural rhythms of the world. You

15:28

look at this in industrial agriculture,

15:31

like we think we've outsmarted

15:33

nature by basically trying to make it like

15:35

summer all the time, you know, we're not allowing

15:38

the soil to rest, we're not allowing it to regenerate,

15:40

we're trying to, we see this life giving

15:42

force and we like, okay, instead of respecting

15:45

the harmony of that system, we're going to squeeze it,

15:47

we're going to get every last drop out of it. And

15:49

what does it do? It's basically saying to us like,

15:51

well, no, like, we're gonna stop

15:53

producing, we're gonna, you know, the topsoil

15:56

is diminishing, etc, etc.

15:58

And so I think there's I sort of, it's

16:00

a sense of a desire for comfort

16:03

and a lack of appreciation for natural

16:05

cycles and for

16:08

the harder things, you know, the hormetic

16:10

stressors being super beneficial

16:13

to getting the most out of a system. There's an

16:15

amazing thing called a starling curve,

16:17

which is basically like the more pressure you add to the

16:19

system, the more efficient it is until a certain

16:22

point, and then it starts diminishing.

16:24

And so in many parts of our lives, we're

16:26

not really putting much pressure on the system at all,

16:28

the discomfort, like the movement

16:30

and the thermal extremes and whatnot, or

16:32

the fasting or whatever. So we're not getting the

16:34

best out of ourselves. We're not giving the cells the

16:37

signal that they need to adapt to

16:39

give us the best possible version of their self.

16:41

So that's one. And the second one that

16:43

kind of came to mind was

16:44

more of a... Yeah, that's the one with like really curious,

16:46

just like stay on that for a second is, I mean,

16:48

my answer to the whole, why are people so sick

16:51

generally comes down to our environment

16:53

is no longer matched with our genes. And

16:56

we've created a zoo cage for ourselves. And just

16:58

like when you throw animals in a zoo and try to replicate their

17:00

environment, but don't get it right, they get sick, they

17:02

get aggressive, they get depressed, they mutilate

17:04

themselves. There's a whole list of things that happen.

17:06

They get obese, they get it.

17:22

It's also something that used to be

17:24

inherent in our environment. Like our environment forced

17:27

us to be uncomfortable, but we manipulated

17:29

our environment because we thought we were smart

17:31

to get the comfort. And so now we have

17:34

to as we're rebuilding it, because I always try to ask, how

17:36

do we get here? And how do we go back? And I don't think

17:38

that's necessarily the same way. It's very

17:40

challenging now to think about all these factors

17:43

and have to consciously hold decision making

17:45

all day long to be uncomfortable in every

17:47

way possible. And so this is always fascinating

17:49

to me of how do you build a lifestyle? We

17:52

chat about interventions and how we think about getting back

17:55

later on. I think this is why farming, for

17:57

example, can be a really good lifestyle

17:59

because You have a certain set of responsibilities,

18:02

gets you outside, gets you in sunlight,

18:04

gets you physical, gets you in touch with the natural world. You

18:06

have to pay attention. There's so many things that

18:09

it sort of stacks all the things up for

18:11

you and you don't have to think about them every single

18:13

time. I saw somebody on Twitter a couple weeks

18:15

ago post, here's my sleep stack. It

18:17

was like four tweets around

18:20

every single thing they needed to do to get there at 96 or

18:24

a score or whatever. And thinking about applying

18:26

that to every single thing, now no

18:28

one has any sort of creative capacity

18:31

to do anything generative in the world. There's

18:33

no expression. There's no, like you said, taking advantage

18:35

of that precious life you have because you're

18:37

so preoccupied having to optimize

18:39

every single variable to be slightly

18:42

discomfortable, but not entirely so that

18:44

way it stresses the system. I don't

18:46

know how you think about that. We can come back to that a little bit

18:48

after we go to your number two point, but it's

18:50

something that I think about almost nonstop every

18:53

single day. Me too.

18:53

It's fascinating, especially what you just

18:55

said about the cognitive load. I think we're

18:57

living in this really funny, but also

19:00

brilliant from an economic perspective situation

19:03

where we've essentially culture has removed

19:06

a way of living that inherently pushes

19:08

ourselves essentially to do their best work, that

19:10

pushes them towards efficient

19:13

adaptation along every

19:15

part of that spectrum of different lifestyle

19:17

and dietary vectors. We've

19:20

taken it away and then we're selling

19:22

it back to people with products,

19:25

cold plunges, gym memberships, et

19:27

cetera. We've created

19:29

this whole scientific term

19:31

of non-exercise activity thermogenesis,

19:34

which is like neat. Basically

19:36

neat is just like, and if people do more

19:38

neat, they're much healthier and they're thinner

19:40

and whatever. They do more neat during the day, this

19:43

non-exercise activity thermogenesis, which basically

19:45

just means like moving around when you're not

19:47

exercised. It's literally

19:49

just moving

19:50

your body, doing the activities

19:52

of daily living. And so it's like, you need to get

19:54

this many minutes of neat per day. And it's like

19:57

what you're saying and what I think about a lot as well

19:59

is like within our. normal culture, and

20:01

being many of us knowledge workers who

20:04

work at a computer, how do you actually

20:06

redesign your life

20:09

such that across every one of these

20:11

vectors of food and lifestyle, you are just

20:13

naturally going to be getting

20:15

the stimuli you need. So that

20:17

might be like living in a I don't

20:20

know, like this is just examples, but like maybe

20:22

you live in a desert where it is actually very

20:25

cold at night and very hot during the

20:27

day and you're naturally exposed to more temperatures. Maybe

20:29

it's that you have

20:32

to walk outside to get from one part of your

20:34

house to the other side of the house such

20:36

that you have to get sunlight first

20:38

thing in the

20:40

morning. Maybe it's that you,

20:42

and again, these are just like totally random

20:45

examples that I haven't even thought about before, but maybe like

20:47

you don't have hot water in your house. So you like have to

20:49

take a cold shower or your

20:52

computer is drilled to a treadmill desk

20:54

and you literally can't use your computer if you're not on a treadmill

20:56

desk. I don't know, but it's like creating

20:58

situations where it's almost like you

21:00

have to do things. Like

21:03

you said, it's a huge cognitive load, but that's

21:05

definitely how I think about for myself. It's

21:07

like, you know, if you're going to build

21:09

these things in, you're going against culture. You

21:12

are just by definition, not doing

21:14

the normal pathway of American life.

21:16

And I, you know, you can make that fun and take

21:18

pride in it, but it is a lot of work. So I think

21:21

a lot of what you and me and other entrepreneurs

21:23

and are trying to do is find

21:26

ways to make it easier and simpler and,

21:28

you know, to build in some of these things. But I

21:30

think, you know, America, one thing

21:32

that I've thought about a lot as I was writing my,

21:35

my first book, which isn't coming out until next year was that

21:37

there's actually sort of this concept of exercise

21:39

is almost kind of problematic. I would say

21:42

like the concept of exercise didn't

21:44

really exist in the way it

21:47

does today. Like we just moved

21:49

a lot throughout the day. You know,

21:52

I think you spent time with like tribes in

21:54

Africa and I'm sure they were just moving naturally as

21:56

part of like the hunting process

21:58

and all of this stuff. It's just built into So now

22:00

we have this thing, exercise, that's

22:02

like one hour that

22:05

we need to check off every day. And

22:07

once we check that off, we think that we've done

22:09

the physical activity module for the day.

22:12

And it almost gives us this like free pass

22:15

of like, oh, well, I don't need to move for the

22:17

rest of the day, which is which is totally wrong.

22:20

If we exercise for one hour, but don't move

22:22

much the rest of the day, like that is

22:24

a that is a lifestyle that will lead to chronic disease.

22:27

We need to be moving our bodies regularly throughout

22:29

the day. And the US has

22:32

the most gyms of any country in the

22:34

world, yet we are amongst the fattest.

22:37

We spend like, what

22:39

is I think I don't have the number right in front of

22:41

me, but we spend about $2,000

22:44

on average on health and fitness memberships

22:47

per person annually. And we have an obesity and

22:49

overweight rate rate of 74% in our country. And 75%

22:54

of US adults do not engage in the minimum

22:56

recommended amount of exercise. So there's

22:59

not only are we not doing it, but even

23:01

if we do do it, it's not actually enough

23:03

because it actually there's actually kind

23:05

of an interesting framing that I really like that

23:08

comes down to the cell when we think about metabolic

23:10

health. If you think about two bodies, one

23:12

body that exercises for one hour a day and goes

23:14

hard, you know, they're lifting or they're doing high intensity

23:17

interval training, that's great. That's

23:19

a person who is basically going to, you

23:21

know, translocate intracellular

23:23

glucose channels to their cell membranes of their

23:26

muscles during that period. And

23:29

because exercise is the stimulus

23:31

to basically like clear glucose from the bloodstream.

23:33

And that's really good. But that body is

23:35

going to do that for that hour. And there may be some

23:37

lasting effect to that. But that's like pretty

23:39

much localized that time period. In

23:42

contrast, if you have a person who gets up and

23:44

walks for one and a half or two minutes,

23:47

every 30 minutes throughout the day,

23:49

which might add up to like 45 minutes

23:51

or an hour total of just like low grade movement

23:53

throughout the day, at every half hour

23:56

they have stimulated the muscles to bring those

23:58

glucose channels to the cell membrane. So

24:00

they are a body that is now constantly

24:03

having that stimulus to have

24:05

a physiologic different reality

24:07

on the cell membrane compared to the person who exercises

24:10

just one hour a day. So I want to be that

24:12

second person, you know, you kind of want to do both,

24:14

but by moving more even

24:16

low grade throughout the day by activating your muscles

24:19

every half hour, every hour, you're

24:21

actually changing the nature

24:23

of how your body is clearing glucose throughout the

24:26

whole day. So it's really

24:28

like a different, it's a different physiology. So

24:30

that's a big mission of mine is like, how do we inspire

24:32

people to just move more throughout

24:35

the day? So many of these

24:37

things also used to be provided

24:39

in an environment for free, right? If

24:41

not with a little help from our community. And there's

24:44

a good number of them that can still be had for free,

24:46

which is, I mean, and this is the thing that I

24:48

might be trying to like, there's a spectrum and yes, you can

24:50

get the $8,000 cold plunge if you want, you

24:52

could also just go outside when it's cold, you could take

24:54

a cold shower, you could jump in the creek, you

24:57

know, the light stuff like

24:59

just go outside as much as possible. I

25:01

mean, there's complexity with some people are literally

25:03

stuck in an office building in the middle of a cubicle

25:06

in the middle of a floor with

25:08

no access to windows. And I find that absolutely tragic

25:11

and should be criminal on several offenses. But

25:14

yeah, I mean, it's wild to think about the

25:16

human environment and how we bastardize it

25:19

and how to rebuild it and how much complexity

25:21

it takes. And even we got a new house here in Bend and

25:23

thinking through all of the ways that I'm having

25:26

to use my brain to create an environment

25:28

that's more like the outside. Yes.

25:30

Oh, you know, speaking of Bend,

25:32

you know, we were just talking about how I just moved from Bend, you

25:34

just moved to Bend. One thing that I

25:36

was obviously thinking about a lot of these things while I was living

25:39

there, and I did do a lot of walks

25:41

in the winter, like without a coat

25:44

on and jumped in the river a

25:46

lot in the winter because I didn't have a cold plunge.

25:48

And so we would do like I had some friends in

25:50

the area that love to do polar plunges. So

25:53

we would do that. So it's a great social event, totally

25:55

free. But there's also something really interesting

25:57

that shifts when you're just exposed to some of

25:59

these concepts. ups around how like how positive

26:02

some of these quote unquote like uncomfortable

26:04

things can be for your health.

26:06

It actually shifts the way you feel about them. So it

26:08

goes from I can remember being kid

26:10

and like if I didn't have my mittens or my jacket

26:13

or I was a little bit cold in the winter, it was like

26:15

horrible, right? Like you're like, Oh, this is so uncomfortable.

26:18

We have to fix this immediately. I have to buy a sweatshirt

26:20

somewhere. You know, it's very much like it's painful

26:23

because you think it's bad. And you think

26:25

it's wrong. If you shift your

26:28

mindset to realizing how helpful

26:30

it is, and how valuable it is to basically

26:32

be a signal to yourselves to do better,

26:35

then all of a sudden it becomes very enjoyable. And

26:38

you you know, if you actually are caught outside

26:40

in the winter without your coat, you're like, heck

26:42

yes, I'm getting my cold thermogenesis for

26:44

the day for free. And you don't want to get frostbite.

26:47

You don't want to like burn your skin with the cold. But it's

26:50

it's it's you can I think apply that more broadly

26:52

in life is if you can shift your perspective

26:55

about the benefit, it actually

26:57

can totally change the emotional

26:59

reaction to the stressor in a way that can

27:01

be really positive. And I think that applies also

27:03

to mental health things. I think when you shift

27:05

more towards like a growth mindset, or if you've done

27:07

some therapy or whatever personal development stuff,

27:10

you start to have arguments or triggers or whatever

27:13

you get triggered by someone at work or

27:15

in your family, and all of a sudden you can view it

27:17

as this doesn't mean there's you know, my

27:19

life sucks, and I don't have good relationships.

27:21

But like this is an opportunity for me

27:24

to unpeel the next layer of the onion

27:26

of my wounds and my reactivity.

27:29

And so reframing these bad

27:31

relational things happening from you

27:33

know, this is this is a negative in my life

27:36

to this is an opportunity. And I think that applies to

27:38

a lot of these like,

27:39

sort of health and wellness things we're talking about,

27:41

but certainly also to personal

27:43

challenges on the emotional level as well. Yeah,

27:46

mindset is another thing that used to be part

27:48

of our human environment in a certain way, and we

27:50

had a culture around it. And I think that's another way

27:52

we've created this artificial balance for ourselves. It

27:55

relates back to what your second

27:57

point was on this, which I'm really curious how you

27:59

put the two together.

27:59

of

28:00

comments. I think you was talking about wealth accumulation.

28:03

What was the point?

28:03

Yeah. So you were asking about like, what are

28:05

the real root causes of why over the last

28:08

100 years or so, like all of these things have

28:10

really gone off the rails. And I think that,

28:13

and some of it is just a sense of like unbridled

28:16

wealth creation. And more specifically,

28:18

the lack of accountability

28:21

in industry around owning the

28:23

externalities of the products

28:27

they're creating or the services they're

28:29

offering. So like an example of this would be,

28:31

and I'd say tied up in that is

28:33

just like a sense of hubris

28:35

or willful ignorance around

28:38

respecting the natural cycles

28:41

of the natural cycles of the earth and

28:43

feeling like we can outsmart them. I think

28:45

the biggest example of this would be like around

28:48

the food system and industrial agriculture.

28:51

And this is tied into the vector of environmental

28:53

toxins. They're all really super

28:55

related, where we have these industries

28:58

that are decimating

29:01

human health, they're decimating food, water,

29:04

air and soil. Many of these industries have

29:08

put a large percentage of the 80,000 plus

29:10

synthetic chemicals that now exist in our environment

29:13

into the ecosystem. And

29:15

they get federal subsidies and tax

29:17

breaks for a lot of their work. So it's just

29:20

a system that is not really based

29:22

in like normal economics. And

29:24

the wide and well

29:26

understood externalities of negative

29:29

impact they're creating in several other spheres

29:31

outside of their particular industry

29:34

are not held accountable for. And

29:37

so you get monumental

29:39

growth, you know, of things like

29:41

processed food companies, and

29:44

companies like Monsanto, and I would

29:47

put certain pharmaceutical companies in

29:49

that realm that haven't had to have

29:52

gotten legal immunity for side effects

29:54

for things that they've produced. And you

29:56

kind of get a system that gets unbridled

29:58

growth at great cost. cost

30:01

to human health and wellbeing. And

30:03

so I think that's driven, you know,

30:05

it's driven a lot of the issues with the, like the food, environmental

30:08

toxin, the microbiome decimation. And

30:11

then of course, just like the intense focus on productivity

30:14

and sort of this industrialized

30:16

human, you know, you have the, like the Rockefeller

30:19

quotes that you hear about, like, you know, you just want

30:21

to create these like workers that just

30:23

like, or go, go, go, go, go. And so you get, you know,

30:26

you've got artificial light on 24 hours a day, you've got, now

30:28

you've got sleep that's screwed

30:30

up. You've got, you know, just,

30:32

just on every level, kind of squeezing

30:34

every drop out of the human

30:36

being with no appreciation

30:39

for how biology actually

30:41

works in a harmonious way. And so

30:44

it almost feels like on many levels,

30:46

like humans are now this, this product

30:49

that can not only be like parade, like, like

30:51

every surface of the human body is

30:54

an opportunity for extracting

30:56

value to many industries.

30:59

And the working potentially with human is also

31:01

kind of able to be squeezed for maximal

31:03

value. And I think in the system that

31:05

we live in, that is what's, what's happening.

31:08

You see it even with children, like a child's

31:10

body now is essentially just like a platform

31:13

for several industries to extract value from,

31:15

whether it's social media viewership, whether

31:18

it's how many pharmaceuticals you can put in that child's

31:20

body, whether it's putting lunchables in school

31:22

lunches and vending machines in pediatric

31:25

children's wards. So I think

31:27

we just have to be aware of this because otherwise

31:30

you're, you're going to be the product

31:33

and the thing that, you know,

31:35

that, that sort of ground

31:38

upon which this, this economic sort

31:40

of milieu is taking place on. So

31:43

again, though, getting back to your point earlier, what

31:45

this creates is a world in which if you're aware of

31:47

this, you spend a lot of your time

31:49

thinking about how to protect yourself from

31:51

it. And then I think if you're, you

31:53

know, entrepreneurial minded, you think about ways to scale

31:56

ways to protect yourself from others

31:59

from this. Certainly what we're trying to do at

32:01

levels is scale

32:03

a way to get people to

32:05

be aware of what's happening with processed

32:08

food and refined sugar and refined

32:10

grains and all these things on their bodies so that they can

32:12

make better decisions. But the onus is

32:14

really on the individual because on the sort of more societal

32:16

and policy level, things are moving very

32:19

slowly and in some cases in the wrong direction.

32:24

This episode is brought to you by Ion Layer,

32:27

which is a new project that I am helping

32:29

spin up. We are just getting

32:31

out of beta and starting to ship kits and

32:34

we are trying to make NAD

32:37

accessible and the experience way better

32:39

for people who want to boost energy, metabolism,

32:42

longevity, all this type of stuff. So what

32:45

is NAD? NAD is

32:47

nicotinamide adenine dienucleotide.

32:49

So quite a mouthful, but what it is

32:51

is basically the coenzyme that's

32:53

central to anything in your body working.

32:56

So it basically brings electrons

32:59

around to all cells naturally

33:01

occurring in all of the mammals especially and

33:04

it decreases as you age. Unfortunately,

33:07

it also decreases when you have some of

33:09

these environmental chronic

33:11

disease, etc. If you muscular

33:13

endurance, it's like anything that requires your

33:16

body to repair, NAD goes down.

33:18

So it goes down as you age and

33:20

I first found it and started using it to

33:23

help my mold toxicity issues.

33:25

So I was having symptoms, tried every single

33:28

supplement, every single medication and it wasn't until I

33:30

started doing high dose NAD IVs,

33:33

people might notice this also NAD plus

33:35

the IVs suck. So

33:37

you strap up to an

33:39

IV bag, you're there for a couple hours and it feels like your

33:41

insides are going through a literal meat grinder.

33:44

It is awful, you feel like you're going to throw

33:46

up. My wife Martha was by

33:48

my side, moaning and groaning. It's the

33:50

most I think I've ever seen her in pain. Luckily,

33:53

after it's done, you feel great

33:55

and amazing, but you have to do these quite a

33:58

lot. We felt incredible.

33:59

after we did these for our mold

34:02

issue. I know some people have done it for long COVID. There's

34:04

also a lot of evidence that supports longevity.

34:07

Look up David Sinclair's work for that type of stuff,

34:09

extending lifespan in animals, et cetera. So

34:12

it's very helpful for a variety of reasons,

34:15

but it basically increases energy output, helps

34:17

you recover from issues and can improve

34:19

longevity. So it's one of these master things. But again, how

34:22

much we'll get it currently is through

34:24

IVs and it makes you feel like

34:26

you are going to die. So I thought, how

34:29

can we make this one cheaper and

34:31

more accessible and not have it be

34:33

so awful? So it currently costs about $500,

34:36

$500 to $700. Yes,

34:38

that's right. $700 per IV. And

34:42

we did five in one week. So obviously

34:45

that price adds up quite a bit. We

34:47

found a way to use iontoforesis,

34:49

which is another fancy long word here

34:51

to explain this technology of a patch.

34:54

So this patch, something you can wear,

34:56

sort of like a continuous blood-glue monitor, but there's no

34:59

input, there's no needles. There's

35:01

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35:04

this across your skin barrier into

35:06

your bloodstream. So you can now get compounds

35:09

that you would likely need to get with

35:11

an injection or an IV without

35:13

any of that. And so we're able to also ship that directly

35:16

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35:18

bring the price down dramatically. So instead of $500 to $750

35:20

per IV, it's

35:23

about a tenth of that cost. Also,

35:25

what's great is that we figured out a way to do it, make

35:27

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35:30

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35:33

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35:36

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35:38

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35:41

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35:43

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35:48

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36:01

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36:04

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36:41

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36:43

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36:46

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37:00

R A G at ionlayer.com

37:03

for a hundred dollars off your first kit. Yeah.

37:08

I mean, I think that the insatiable quest

37:10

for wealth, which leads to this harvesting

37:13

of the planet and resources, including humans

37:16

is to me very sad because

37:19

it's a normal response to

37:21

isolation. And isolation

37:24

from people, isolation from skills

37:26

and being valuable isolation from

37:29

where you're harvesting materials from and land.

37:32

And I mean, this is a big takeaway when I

37:34

went to spend time with the hot tribe of how

37:36

at ease these people were, how content they were and

37:38

how abundant their life was

37:41

because they had each other and everything

37:43

that they depended on, they lived in

37:45

and around. And if they needed

37:47

a tool, they can make one immediately, but they also saw

37:49

the ramifications and they knew don't take too

37:52

much of this thing because we're going to need it later. And

37:55

if you are in a high rise in New York,

37:57

making decisions that someone else goes.

38:00

does over in the Congo, that's

38:02

going to be a very different outcome. You have no

38:05

relation to land in which you're harvesting from. I

38:08

don't know where that line, where you can really

38:10

cross it into a modern world, we're all isolated.

38:13

I think ultimately the problem of the,

38:15

I think like I said, the biggest

38:18

issue is the mismatch of your environment, your

38:20

biology. But I think preceding that is

38:22

actually our separation from nature. And

38:26

I think often around where did

38:28

this screw in this microphone come from?

38:30

And like, what cost is this really? And

38:32

then I look around in my house and

38:35

the things that I have to use in a day to day basis.

38:38

It's shocking. Like it can be very overwhelming. And

38:40

I think with anything else, the massive gradient,

38:42

as soon as you're aware of giving that concept,

38:45

you start living in a very different way. And I think

38:47

it's no people can be aware of that at

38:49

large, where it's going to keep repeating the same things

38:51

over and over and again. And that's, that's probably fundamentally

38:53

what I think is the issue. How to get that all

38:55

on my own now. Oh my God, that's a completely

38:58

different topic. And that's why I think we

39:00

need an army of people who are actually trying to do stuff

39:02

is not a singular cause. I think that

39:04

many people have different exposure levels

39:07

and different tripwires that they get exposed to

39:09

that sort of brings them out of the matrix, so

39:11

to speak, and wakes them up and unlocks that ZU

39:13

cage so they can step out and realize what's actually

39:16

going on. Obviously, you guys are

39:18

focused on metabolic health and awareness of

39:20

metabolic health continues. And the Gluebeth Monitor

39:22

is the initial thing that you guys have done a lot of

39:24

work on. I'm now starting to see

39:26

a lot of pushback, which is

39:29

not surprising, but I think a little unnecessary.

39:32

True in some cases, because I think that's some orthorexia

39:34

where some people, if they don't go fully through

39:36

this awakening phase of

39:39

realizing all the stuff we just talked about over the last 30 minutes, they

39:42

can get very obsessed with data and

39:44

just think like Spike Bad. I'm

39:47

curious how you guys, I deep gone through this. It

39:49

seems to me, and I obviously know a lot of the rest of

39:51

the team, know how you guys think about this stuff, using

39:54

CGM amazing for creating

39:56

a feedback loop for people who generally don't have it before

39:59

of what I put in my mind. my mouth impacts

40:01

my body and how I feel. And as much as I think

40:03

there's a lot of different ways that people can initially have

40:05

that sense of, Oh, this thing

40:08

changed me in this way. And most people go around their

40:10

day to day life and go through these patterns

40:12

and rhythms and never separate these decisions

40:14

with how they feel. And it's never one

40:17

action in unison. So what tends to

40:19

happen though, is I think people can get otherwise before

40:21

otherwise healthy can make choices saying

40:24

like, I saw an example today on Twitter,

40:26

we were sorry, where somebody ate

40:28

blueberry and said, Oh, the blueberry spiked

40:30

my blood sugar. Therefore, not good. And

40:32

I think conversely, somebody could be chugging a

40:35

gallon of canola oil and say, well, I didn't spike

40:37

my blood sugar. So it must be good. How do you guys

40:39

obviously require a massive amount of education, but how

40:41

do you guys help parse through the nuance of the

40:43

data after you've maybe like giving somebody

40:45

the initial feedback? So that way they

40:48

can incorporate this into what's

40:50

a much larger conversation? Yeah,

40:53

it does a great question.

40:54

The way I think about it is

40:56

that like, we are not in the business

40:59

of like, getting

41:00

people no glucose spikes.

41:03

We're in the business of building metabolically healthy

41:05

bodies. And metabolically

41:07

healthy bodies are

41:10

going to clear glucose more

41:12

efficiently from the bloodstream because they're going to be

41:14

more insulin sensitive because their mitochondria

41:16

is are going to be functional. And

41:19

over time, what will emerge

41:22

is likely less erratic glucose

41:25

patterns and like lower spikes,

41:27

quicker return to baseline, less time

41:29

above range, all of that. Now

41:31

where it gets a little complex is that one of

41:33

one of the many ways

41:36

to improve mitochondrial function

41:38

and health is to stop overburdening

41:42

the cell with just a total

41:44

excess of this particular,

41:46

you know, this particular molecule to process,

41:49

which is glucose. And right now we're

41:51

just like inundating the body with far

41:53

too much refined grains and sugars,

41:56

which not only will often cause

41:58

spikes, but there it's just so much

42:01

for the cells to do. And so

42:03

you end up gumming up the system. And, you

42:06

know, a lot of it gets

42:08

converted to intracellular fat, it gets

42:11

converted to fat and gets exported other parts of the

42:13

body, it creates reactive oxygen species that's

42:15

damaged with mitochondria, all of this is a feedback

42:17

system to the insulin receptor to basically create insulin

42:19

resistance, then you've got hyperinsulinemia, you

42:21

aren't clearing glucose from the bloodstream properly.

42:24

So it's this whole. So one of the levers

42:27

in improving the overall metabolic health of

42:29

the body is to keep the spikes down.

42:31

But that's not the end all

42:33

be all like having just just getting rid

42:36

of the spikes does not necessarily mean you

42:38

are 100% metabolically healthy or

42:41

vice versa. So it's one part of it.

42:43

So what we want to do is help really

42:45

educate people on like the, you know, get

42:48

people acquainted with some of this biology

42:50

so that they really understand what they're working

42:52

towards here and that there are so many elements

42:54

of creating that metabolically healthy cell from

42:57

all the from from addressing all those

42:59

different pillars that we talked about food,

43:01

sleep, stress, exercise, microbiome,

43:03

light temperature, environmental toxins,

43:06

etc, and more, and

43:08

take stock in their own lives of

43:11

what

43:11

aspects of those are maybe

43:14

going really well,

43:14

not going really well for every

43:16

person, it's going to be sort of a different set

43:19

of intensity on which

43:21

ones of those need to be worked on the most.

43:24

And then, you know, work towards doing

43:26

better with those and and then also

43:29

on the food pillar, try

43:32

to keep the spikes down

43:34

as a proxy for sort of giving your body

43:36

a break on how much glucose it has to process,

43:39

of course, it's gonna feed forward into better mitochondrial health.

43:41

And then ultimately, over time lead to better glucose patterns

43:44

generally. So it's, it's, it's complex.

43:46

But I mean, we're all believers in the fact that

43:48

like people can handle this information, like it's

43:50

not it's not that complicated. And we really do

43:52

have to understand it. And like people, people,

43:55

we've really been so patronizing

43:57

to the average American patient of like

44:00

really keeping them from their health information and

44:02

sort of this kind of paternalistic medical

44:04

culture of like, you know, kind of really

44:07

separating people from their own data. And

44:09

we really feel like people absolutely

44:11

can handle this and understand this information and

44:13

should. And so, so yeah,

44:16

so I'd say big picture, it's about building a metabolic

44:18

healthy body. It's also, you

44:20

know, we really wanna really help

44:22

people understand this body awareness cycle that you

44:25

touched on of like really sort of solidifying

44:27

this link between what I'm doing, what's happening

44:29

with my data and how do I feel so that

44:32

when the data is not there, there's still a connection

44:34

between what I'm doing and how I feel.

44:37

And we hear this all the time. This is a concept called

44:39

interoception, which is basically like really

44:41

high level body awareness where after wearing

44:43

CGM for a little while, people

44:45

can actually just kind of intuit or sense sort

44:48

of where they are in terms of their blood sugar levels, which

44:50

is really interesting. The last thing I'd mention is

44:52

that to really understand,

44:55

I think where you are in terms of metabolic

44:57

health and where you stand, that's

45:00

where like actual blood-based biomarkers

45:02

are gonna be extremely helpful. Like CGM

45:05

can directionally tell you how you're doing in terms of

45:07

your metabolic health, but it's not a diagnostic tool.

45:10

I'd say it's most valuable as a biofeedback

45:13

tool, like a cause and effect type

45:15

tool. And you can kind of get a sense

45:17

of how metabolic health is by like where

45:19

generally is your glucose when you wake up

45:21

in the morning? Is it above a hundred, is it below a hundred? How

45:24

long generally does it take to come down

45:26

from a spike after a high carb meal? If

45:28

that's a really wide sort

45:30

of mountain and like it's a very long return

45:33

to baseline, that could be a signal that you're having trouble clearing

45:36

glucose in the bloodstream. So there's these clues

45:38

in the glucose dynamics of where

45:40

you stand metabolically. But to

45:43

really understand that you do need to

45:45

get the biomarker testing

45:47

from your doctor or from levels.

45:51

And that's really more of answering the question

45:53

of like, how is my metabolic health? So

45:55

what I tell people who are getting stressed about

45:57

their glucose data, like, oh my God, I'm so excited. spiking

46:00

so much and everything I eat seems

46:02

to spike me and this and that. It's like,

46:05

start by getting some of your biomarkers done

46:07

so you actually know how your metabolic

46:09

health is and then you'll have a better

46:12

sense of, you know, what your carb

46:14

tolerance is and, you know, how how officially

46:16

you might be clearing glucose. And so that's like tests like

46:19

the basic ones that you might get from your doctor

46:21

every year, like a fasting glucose, a hemoglobin

46:23

A1c, a cholesterol panel. These

46:25

are generally like free and covered by insurance and,

46:28

you know, many people get these with their physical, but

46:31

also some of the more advanced specialty

46:33

testing like fasting insulin, uric acid,

46:35

ApoB. There's

46:38

several others that can be valuable,

46:40

but like that together like a fasting

46:42

glucose, a cholesterol panel,

46:44

which can be really helpful because both triglycerides and

46:46

HDL are very indicative of metabolic

46:49

status. ApoB, which is sort of

46:51

an advanced cholesterol marker, fasting insulin,

46:53

which I think is the most important test that anyone in America

46:55

can get. And then uric acid, which is

46:58

sort of downstream of the fructose metabolism

47:00

pathway and can be really useful. So those

47:02

really, I think are great to start with

47:05

before even starting CGM because you can

47:07

really have ownership over knowing like

47:09

where you stand at the beginning and

47:11

then use the CGM more as a biofeedback tool

47:14

rather than a tool that like stresses you out making you

47:16

think that like

47:16

you have a problem or you don't without

47:19

actually the full picture. Yeah, makes a lot of sense. I think

47:21

that testing is, it's

47:23

like generally assessing where you're at on

47:26

many dimensions is very important. The way I

47:28

view health and how to return

47:30

to health is again, maybe a little simplistic,

47:33

but I think it helps people sort of frame around it is

47:35

when the conditions are right, we're talking about that when the environment's

47:38

right, you shouldn't have any problems. The natural

47:40

state is why the podcast name of the

47:42

organism is health and abundance

47:45

and vitality. You don't see, I

47:47

don't see crows flying around a blue jays

47:49

that are three times the other one. I don't see

47:52

them coughing. You don't see them limping. You don't see them sedentary.

47:55

It's just the natural state of our environment

47:58

allows what we should be, which is

48:00

healthy individuals and organisms. And

48:02

once you have an interaction there, you typically

48:04

need two things. One of them is the intervention

48:07

to get back on path. And then number two

48:09

is the restoration of that natural environment. And

48:11

so a lot of the stuff that we initially talked about for 30 minutes

48:14

was about our environments messed up,

48:16

here's all the ways we could fix it being more uncomfortable,

48:19

light movement, all these types of things. But

48:21

a lot of times, I mean, if you think about it like a train

48:23

running on tracks, the tracks are fine, the

48:25

wheels are good, they'll be totally in

48:27

harmony, and that will be a healthy environment,

48:30

it's a couldn't put natural state. If there's a track

48:32

that bends, now that environment is

48:35

aberrant, and it flies off. If you

48:37

fix the tracks, and the cars are

48:39

still on the side of the road or a side of the tracks burning,

48:42

not good either. So I think that what Western

48:44

medicine typically has focused on exclusively

48:46

is interventions. How do we get the train

48:48

back on the tracks? But it does not focus on how

48:51

do we fix tracks, how do we fix the environment as

48:53

well. I think they're both necessary sometimes. Most

48:56

people wait until they have symptoms

48:58

to realize that the car is burning and you're off

49:00

the tracks and you need an intervention to get back

49:02

on tracks. And most people are off

49:05

and are not in a natural state and need an intervention

49:07

to sort of like get back on track, but

49:10

also need to restore their environment. And again, if the

49:12

environment isn't restored, and this is why you see people

49:15

on chronic medications, medications for the rest

49:17

of their lives, as well as you see people I think

49:19

in talk therapy, and definitely I think you see

49:21

people who are taking psychedelics, which

49:23

are like can be helpful, but also are taking them

49:25

over and over and over again, definitely because they're not actually

49:28

doing the intervention, which is helpful in

49:30

the short term, they're never fixing the long term thing,

49:32

convertly not doing intervention and just

49:35

doing sort of like what paleo man would have done

49:37

is also not enough typically in

49:39

assessing where you're at to know the

49:41

severity of either environment correction

49:44

or the intervention you need is

49:46

really helpful. So with that in mind, I'm curious,

49:49

do you guys ever recommend people

49:52

take any short term medications to help out with

49:54

things and that in some of the bioactive

49:56

community things like that format etc are

49:58

used? ever recommend

50:01

that or suggest that for any reason? Is

50:03

it people? I've seen food is a huge

50:05

part of what you guys do and how you help people get back

50:07

to normal. What are some of the other things that interventions

50:09

that you would have that would help people get back on

50:11

track?

50:11

Yeah, I mean, well,

50:14

levels as it stands now is

50:17

exclusively a health and wellness company. So it's

50:19

actually not at all in the clinical

50:21

space of like disease reversal, disease

50:24

management, disease diagnostics.

50:27

So really our

50:28

market still is the consumer

50:30

market of people who are pre-disease,

50:33

but trying to feel

50:34

their best, trying to understand their diet.

50:36

So for us, well, get

50:38

levels for the first time and realize that they're pre-diabetic or diabetic.

50:41

Oh, that's a great question. I actually don't know the

50:43

answer to that question. And I actually, we probably wouldn't

50:45

even be able to answer that question because the tool

50:48

is not, it's not meant to diagnose,

50:50

you know, because it is a wearable, just like

50:52

pretty much every wearable, there is a margin

50:54

of error compared to gold standard.

50:56

So like the gold standard of diagnosing diabetes

50:58

or pre-diabetes would be a venous

51:01

blood draw of fasting glucose

51:03

or hemoglobin A1c, or an oral glucose

51:06

tolerance test with a venous

51:08

blood draw of glucose. So that's really

51:10

like the most accurate, the way to diagnose

51:13

it. Do you have the data on the levels

51:15

labs? If you're the same percentage

51:17

of people?

51:17

I don't think we have that yet, but

51:19

we absolutely, we're just ramping

51:22

up the labs program. And

51:24

that would be really, really interesting to see like,

51:27

because people, when they become customers,

51:29

they're answering a consultation

51:32

form where they do indicate

51:34

where they've ever, if they've ever been

51:36

diagnosed with diabetes or before,

51:38

and so, or pre-diabetes.

51:40

So, yeah, it would be interesting

51:42

if, if, if we be able to see,

51:44

you know, for those people

51:46

that maybe thought that they had never been diagnosed

51:48

with pre-diabetes or type two diabetes, like how many actually

51:51

fall into that category from the lab standpoint,

51:54

it would be a lot. Well, and what we know from

51:56

the broader data is that 90% of people with diabetes,

51:59

they're not going to be diagnosed prediabetes don't know that they have

52:01

it. So, and there was just like,

52:03

oh my God, the most like horrifying study

52:06

that came out that was done

52:08

with the United States

52:11

Preventative Task Force. And

52:13

it was from their data, but it was published

52:16

one or two years ago. And basically it was 21,000 patients

52:19

who were eligible for prediabetes screening. And

52:22

they followed them over a little bit of time. And

52:25

of the 21,000 patients who were eligible

52:28

for prediabetes

52:28

screening,

52:29

I think 5% got appropriate, 5%

52:31

I believe got

52:34

appropriate treatment. I might be getting these numbers wrong. The

52:37

punchline, which is the one that

52:39

is most important is that

52:42

of the people who were actually screened,

52:44

which was a very small percentage, the ones who

52:46

are identified as having prediabetes, zero

52:49

out of 21,000 people got

52:51

appropriate prediabetes treatment. And

52:53

so like not a single person in

52:55

the entire study. So we are just

52:57

like abjectly failing on

53:00

every level at identifying

53:02

prediabetes, which is in no way a predisease.

53:05

Once someone has reached the prediabetes threshold

53:07

of

53:07

a hold of a fasting glucose of 100, 125 milligrams through

53:11

less liter, that is full blown insulin resistance.

53:14

That's probably been going on for years where

53:17

their body has actually been compensating

53:19

to keep their blood sugar looking fairly

53:21

normal by pumping out

53:24

lots of extra insulin to overcome

53:26

the insulin resistance to sort of drive

53:28

glucose into the cells in the face of cells

53:30

that are insulin resistant and kind of keeping

53:33

the blood sugar looking pretty normal or

53:35

high normal. And then they eventually tip

53:37

into the prediabetes range. But the

53:39

term

53:39

is just so, so

53:42

problematic

53:42

because prediabetes

53:44

is full blown advanced insulin

53:46

resistance.

53:46

So the whole

53:49

landscape

53:49

of prediabetes

53:51

is a shambles in the United States. And

53:53

given that metabolic diseases and

53:55

issues are underlying the nine to the 10 leading

53:58

causes of death in the United States, like. this

54:00

should be front page news, it should be our

54:02

literally first order priority that we're talking about

54:04

in the upcoming election. It's

54:07

so odd that it's so sort

54:09

of under the radar, but that's one of the reasons

54:11

why we are so passionate about getting

54:13

the labs out to people in an accessible

54:16

way, because anyone who wants to

54:18

answer the question, what is

54:20

my level of metabolic health, should

54:23

be able to answer that question. We believe

54:25

the answer to that question should be democratized,

54:28

easy and cheap. And that's where this

54:31

very focused five

54:31

biomarker panel came

54:34

from. You guys doing HbA1c, fasting

54:36

insulin, uric acid. HbOb triglycerides

54:38

and uric acid,

54:39

which is kind of like striking this balance between

54:42

what tests can you put together and

54:44

kind of read the tea leaves of being able to say like

54:46

I am or I'm not optimally metabolically

54:49

healthy, and also striking that

54:51

balance with cost and accessibility

54:54

and ease. And so we

54:56

worked with our team of medical

54:58

advisors to really

55:01

pick five tests that triangulated

55:03

all those things. But yeah,

55:06

so that's how we came up with that one. And we also give

55:08

people like expert opinion on optimal ranges

55:11

for where the test should be. So the

55:13

average lab slip for fasting

55:16

insulin will say that anything less than 25 million

55:18

IU per mil is normal. But

55:20

the research strongly suggests

55:22

that it's more like two to five, two

55:25

to six is optimal.

55:27

So like,

55:28

it is normal for an average

55:30

American, right, right, which

55:33

they establish the reference range based on exactly

55:35

mean that's healthy and ideal and

55:38

optimal for a human. No,

55:39

exactly. Like triglycerides, the optimal

55:41

range or sorry, the range that people will

55:43

be told is normal is less than 150. And

55:47

we have some advisors who think it should be less than 70, less

55:49

than half of

55:51

what the normal range is. And,

55:54

you know, triglycerides in terms of increasing your risk

55:56

ratio for future heart attack is higher

55:59

than LDL. But it's 1.8 for

56:01

high triglycerides and 1.3 for high LDL,

56:04

and yet we've totally villainized LDL as

56:06

the big problem. And Robert Lustig, one of our advisors,

56:09

talks a lot about this in his book, Metabolical, which

56:11

is like the reason for that is because we had

56:13

a medication for LDL. So we

56:15

really pushed LDL as like bad cholesterol

56:18

because we could prescribe something for it. There's

56:20

not been a great medication for triglycerides, although

56:22

you can get triglycerides to drop rapidly

56:24

in a month with dietary changes. But

56:26

triglycerides are actually seem to be more dangerous

56:29

in terms of heart disease risk. So theoretically,

56:31

we could have made triglycerides the bad cholesterol.

56:34

But of course, that's what LDL kind of emerged as.

56:37

And his thought is that that had a lot to do with the

56:39

pharmaceutical industry, you know,

56:41

wanting to get people more aware of that one.

56:43

But of course, we know LDL is like not necessarily

56:46

the best biomarker for understanding cardiac risk

56:48

because there's not just one LDL. There's

56:50

two LDLs in the bloodstream that are put together

56:53

when you create the total LDL number. And

56:56

one of those two species of LDL

56:58

is less atherogenic, it's less

57:00

promoting of heart blockage and heart disease than

57:02

the other. And so it's a little bit

57:04

of a fuzzy biomarker, because

57:06

even if it's high, you don't have a sense

57:09

of what the fractionated whether you

57:11

know, how much of the not so bad LDL

57:13

there is versus the really dangerous one.

57:15

So in very, very

57:18

few people are looking at oxidized LDL

57:20

either, which yeah, actually it's

57:22

good here. But I mean, I think we talked

57:24

about LDL for probably four hours. Right.

57:26

But that's why we don't have it on our panel, because it's

57:28

just not, you know, people

57:30

will balk at that. Like, why is there not

57:32

LDL or why is there not CRP

57:35

or whatnot? And I mean, there's a lot of biomarkers

57:37

that we'd love to test vitamin D, like several

57:39

others. But I think with the five that

57:41

are on there, people can really

57:44

get a good sense of where where they stand.

57:46

So why? Why?

57:48

I mean, APO B is, you know,

57:50

a phenomenal cardiac risk marker.

57:54

And a lot of cardiologists, I think, feel like it's got

57:56

a lot more signal and clarity and than LDL.

58:00

because basically all ApoB containing

58:02

molecules are atherogenic.

58:05

And so it's giving you a little bit more of a close sense

58:07

of like problematic cholesterol

58:10

in the bloodstream. So slightly

58:12

more specific for cholesterol

58:14

particles that could cause

58:16

problems in the blood vessels, essentially. ApoB

58:19

is one of the proteins that sits on, you

58:21

know, cholesterol molecules. And

58:24

the ones that it sits on are not.

58:26

Do you consider that to be part of metabolic

58:29

health as itself or is it more

58:31

as a part of like general health?

58:33

I think like very much so. It's

58:36

in that sort of like metabolic health

58:39

nexus, which I would sort of, you

58:41

know, you're looking at, you're

58:43

trying to get a signal on cardiovascular

58:46

health, liver health, how the body

58:48

is packaging and processing energy,

58:50

mitochondrial

58:51

health, blood sugar,

58:53

insulin, pancreas, like all these different things.

58:55

And so it's kind of finding biomarkers that give

58:57

you a signal of some of that. So I think with ApoB,

59:00

you're getting a signal of cardiovascular health,

59:03

you know, insulin sensitivity and

59:05

liver health in some capacity.

59:07

So compared to LDL, we

59:09

felt that it was a much stronger biomarker.

59:12

So, but I

59:12

think in there, like the ones that

59:15

I kind of, the ones that I feel like

59:17

I would, this is just my personal opinion, like

59:19

that every single person in the world should just be able

59:21

to rattle off if asked, like

59:23

you're at a dinner party and you just go around and like,

59:25

do you know this number? Like I think everyone needs to

59:27

know they're fasting insulin, they're trying to survive

59:30

levels. Like we should be able to answer that. Like we answer

59:32

like, what is your phone number? Because they're

59:34

just so, and maybe if the two of them,

59:36

I would even say fasting insulin. Cause

59:38

if your insulin levels are going up, it's a clear sign

59:41

that you're becoming insulin resistant, which is a clear sign

59:43

that your cells are

59:44

having a problem with processing energy. So

59:46

yeah, that's one that I really care

59:48

a lot about. And I don't know, I wasn't

59:51

aware of how you guys incorporate it. And I'm very

59:53

ignorant compared to most of my friends who have really

59:55

dug into this subject that it seems to be

59:57

still some disagreement. with

1:00:00

different camps around the validity of

1:00:02

it and if the presence of it means

1:00:04

underlying pathology or not and some

1:00:07

of the other ones that you have in your panels, like

1:00:09

absolutely, I feel like you

1:00:11

cannot be metabolically healthy or

1:00:14

even like metabolically unhealthy and have

1:00:16

that number be normal. And from

1:00:18

what I have understood from other people who are far

1:00:20

smarter than I am, what this stuff is that you could potentially

1:00:23

have fine underlying health and still

1:00:25

have aberrant ABOB, but you

1:00:27

need to get into the weeds, or like the, I was

1:00:30

just curious how you guys thought about incorporating

1:00:32

it, but that makes sense. Regarding

1:00:34

other things that people can do,

1:00:37

obviously I think education is a huge part

1:00:39

that's overlooked when at the face level

1:00:41

you guys probably look like a product company. You're adding the labs

1:00:43

and services obviously, but one thing I really

1:00:45

appreciate is what you've done in education. Where

1:00:48

would people even start if they're thinking about

1:00:50

this type of stuff? Is it, I've sort of changed

1:00:52

my mind a little bit on education and I think that people

1:00:54

should start wherever they're most excited and interested.

1:00:57

Yeah. But if people are interested

1:01:00

broadly in how I become metabolically healthy,

1:01:02

there are so many things that we've covered already in

1:01:04

the last hours. Like do you guys have a guide?

1:01:08

Here's how you start thinking about this stuff. Like do

1:01:10

you have any easy entries? Like what are

1:01:12

you thinking about? Is it like so deep to get

1:01:14

a mitochondria? Is it, prior

1:01:16

to that? One thing I've

1:01:18

really learned from talking to so many customers

1:01:21

is that the entry point or the gateway

1:01:23

to interest in this is so varied. And

1:01:26

I actually love what you just said, which was like find

1:01:29

what's lighting you up and

1:01:31

then follow that thread. And

1:01:33

I actually really am a believer in the fact that

1:01:35

we need a lot of different messengers for this

1:01:37

particular topic of

1:01:40

metabolic health because people are gonna

1:01:42

respond to different people, different mediums,

1:01:45

all these different things. And so there's

1:01:47

some people who are gonna hear it best from Peter Atiyah

1:01:49

and some people are gonna hear it best from Andrew Huerman

1:01:52

and some people are gonna hear it best from Sarah Gottfried, Mark

1:01:54

Hyman, you, me, and

1:01:56

so I'm very heartened by how many

1:01:59

voices there are. in the space and how many

1:02:01

different mediums you can go to. You know, like,

1:02:03

even if you're, you know, a Mark Hyman

1:02:06

follower, it's like you could start with

1:02:08

his newsletter, one of his 14, 15 books, his

1:02:12

YouTube channel, his podcast

1:02:15

or social media. And frankly, like any

1:02:18

of those, by osmosis, you're gonna start

1:02:20

to get some of the key messages. And

1:02:22

the funny thing is, is that the key messages

1:02:25

across pretty much everyone, this

1:02:27

stuff is not that complicated. Like if you wanna

1:02:29

go down the whole like mitochondrial function,

1:02:32

oxidative stress, intercellular cilium pathways, AMPK,

1:02:34

you know, Glute 4 channels, all

1:02:37

that, like go for it. But

1:02:39

like, if you also just kinda wanna like know

1:02:41

the answer, like you're gonna

1:02:43

get 90% of the way there by focusing on

1:02:45

some of the simple, like high yield

1:02:48

behavioral and food interventions, like eating

1:02:50

real food, ideally growing in good soil and

1:02:53

eliminating refined grains and refined

1:02:55

sugars and ideally industrially processed seed oils

1:02:58

by moving low grade movement throughout the day,

1:03:01

lifting heavy things, multiple times per

1:03:03

week, getting seven, eight hours

1:03:05

of sleep, which is the amount that seems to be associated

1:03:07

with the best metabolic health, like figuring

1:03:09

out how to manage your chronic stress, which

1:03:12

could mean a lot of different things, spiritual development,

1:03:14

overcoming trauma, improving relationships, developing

1:03:17

a growth mindset, going to therapy, doing

1:03:19

psychedelic therapy, whatever, but basically

1:03:21

overcoming limiting beliefs that are gonna make you

1:03:24

feel limited and therefore dependent on things outside

1:03:26

of yourself for like health and wellbeing and

1:03:28

then able to be preyed upon by industry and

1:03:31

sort of living in fear, which hurts our metabolic health. So

1:03:34

those are kind of the key things, they're all simple, like they're

1:03:38

simple but not easy. Then it's like avoiding

1:03:40

the environmental toxins, like clean up your house, clean

1:03:42

up your products, get rid of the pesticide

1:03:44

covered food, stop using artificial scents

1:03:46

and all of your soaps and lotions and shampoos

1:03:49

and conditioners, like get rid of all the artificial coloring

1:03:51

and this stuff, like try to buy more non-toxic

1:03:53

products if you can, use vinegar

1:03:55

and water as a cleaning solution for everything. Like

1:03:57

it's simple stuff like that and then like, you know.

1:04:00

some of the more advanced things I would say is like

1:04:02

light hygiene, like stop, you know, try

1:04:04

and get more in touch with natural cycles of light, like

1:04:06

seeing light during the day from the

1:04:08

sun and not being berated

1:04:11

with blue light when the sun is down. Like,

1:04:14

very important, actually very important

1:04:16

for circadian metabolic pathways, free,

1:04:18

simple, you know, and then I think another like

1:04:20

one of the sort of higher level ones is like the thermal one.

1:04:23

So like, see if you can expose your body

1:04:25

to more regular cold and heat because it's

1:04:27

a signal to your body to adapt and become more

1:04:29

metabolically efficient. So it's like,

1:04:32

you go to any of these people, Peter

1:04:34

Tia, levels, Mark Hyman, you

1:04:36

know, you're gonna hear a lot of these same things.

1:04:39

And you're going to also hear some more advanced things like

1:04:41

the NAD drips and ozone therapy

1:04:44

and peptides and all this stuff. But the

1:04:46

basic stuff around the sort of core

1:04:48

pillars of diet and lifestyle, it's

1:04:51

I believe it will get people 90% of the way there.

1:04:54

But going back to what

1:04:56

you talked about earlier about isolation and nature,

1:04:59

I think like for me, and I believe

1:05:01

this, like it all of this has to

1:05:03

start with a sense of deep, I think curiosity

1:05:06

and appreciation, gratitude and awe for

1:05:08

both the human body and the natural world

1:05:10

and how those two are constantly in conversation with each other.

1:05:12

So I think, honestly, like getting outside

1:05:15

and being more in nature and

1:05:17

starting to have open your eyes to like

1:05:20

the beauty that's around you and having

1:05:22

gratitude and awe for it for me,

1:05:24

that's kind of like underneath all of this behavior

1:05:26

change, because when you can kind of get to that place

1:05:29

of your connectedness with everything around you

1:05:31

and how your body is this like miraculous engine

1:05:34

that's constantly in conversation with everything around

1:05:36

you. I think it actually makes these health behaviors

1:05:38

a lot easier to implement because, you know, it's

1:05:40

coming from a place of a real like appreciation

1:05:43

for the miraculousness of this experience of

1:05:46

life rather than a sense of like fear

1:05:49

and scarcity and all

1:05:50

of that. Yeah, like reverence and

1:05:52

sacredness, which I think are two things that are very

1:05:54

much in deficiency in our modern culture. I mean,

1:05:57

you said it's really simple and then you list.

1:06:00

to like 580 things right in a row,

1:06:02

which I agree with all of them. Each

1:06:04

one of themselves is pretty simple. It's like

1:06:06

walk, lift, eat

1:06:07

real food. I totally agree.

1:06:09

I just think it could be a little overwhelming for people

1:06:11

who aren't as obsessed with this stuff.

1:06:14

But it's simple,

1:06:17

but it's complex and it can be confusing.

1:06:19

And I just urge anybody to pick the things that

1:06:21

they're most interested in and go one at a time.

1:06:24

I always try to communicate

1:06:26

like there's no perfect endpoint.

1:06:29

And you'll always be optimizing and I'm always

1:06:31

finding things that change because I'm

1:06:34

getting really into light stuff. And I've

1:06:36

finally appreciated it. Now

1:06:38

I did the work to actually learn about the thing and now

1:06:40

I'm doing like I did enough learning to do

1:06:42

the behavior change. Yeah. Dabbling

1:06:45

in a bunch of stuff and never changing behavior

1:06:48

is less important than I think diving

1:06:50

into one thing and changing one thing at a time. Yeah.

1:06:53

Yeah. And one thing I thought

1:06:54

this

1:06:56

is just one more random aside on that. Like it's that

1:06:59

like it is hard to bring

1:07:01

all these things into your life and

1:07:03

it is adopting

1:07:05

almost like a different identity because it's an identity

1:07:08

of doing things differently and

1:07:10

having to say no to a lot of things that are normal

1:07:13

and yes to a lot of things that can seem counterculture

1:07:15

or weird. And so I think there

1:07:17

is an element of personal work

1:07:19

that also is sort of foundational of

1:07:22

one like really figuring

1:07:24

out like what your motivation is and what that

1:07:26

means to you and to like really understanding

1:07:29

the concept of boundary setting which I think really

1:07:31

comes down to doing the personal work

1:07:33

to understand why your boundaries might

1:07:35

be slippery. You know like with people or

1:07:38

with choices I think a lot of that

1:07:40

often comes down to wounds you know wounds that we carry

1:07:43

from childhood that make us adopt

1:07:45

behaviors that can be you know people pleasing

1:07:48

or you know like just

1:07:51

sort of accommodating or

1:07:53

not standing up for ourselves or whatever. And I think

1:07:56

once you can start to set really clear

1:07:59

boundaries with your choices with people,

1:08:02

a lot of this becomes easier. So I

1:08:04

think that, I think something I've evolved to

1:08:06

really feel over the past several years of working

1:08:08

in this behavior change space is, you

1:08:11

know, how much some of the sort of foundational

1:08:13

psychological stuff like actually really does

1:08:15

matter to, to be able to implement

1:08:17

some of these things long term and, you know, start small.

1:08:21

And obviously, you know,

1:08:23

yeah, I would say, you know, start small

1:08:26

and don't overlook like sort

1:08:28

of some of the psychological elements of this

1:08:31

as well. And if you feel like it's really

1:08:33

hard to adopt some of these changes, like sometimes

1:08:35

getting a coach or working with

1:08:37

an accountability partner, like a friend, you

1:08:39

know, or really starting with

1:08:41

like, why is this challenging and work

1:08:43

backwards from there like can kind of lead sometimes

1:08:45

down a really

1:08:46

great personal growth path. Journey never

1:08:48

stops. It never stops. Yeah.

1:08:50

Thank you so much for all the wisdom. It was a great conversation.

1:08:54

And where can people find your work? I

1:08:56

think it's Casey's kitchen on Instagram.

1:08:58

Where else?

1:08:59

Yeah. So a lot of stuff on

1:09:01

the levels blog. So levels health.com slash

1:09:03

blog. We also are

1:09:06

at levels on Instagram and Twitter. We

1:09:08

have a great newsletter that you can sign up for

1:09:10

levels health.com. I met Dr. Casey's

1:09:13

kitchen on Instagram and Twitter. And

1:09:15

we have an amazing YouTube channel with a

1:09:17

lot of the metabolic health thought

1:09:18

leaders that's at levels health. So

1:09:20

lots of different resources. So yeah,

1:09:23

that's where you can find

1:09:23

us. Well, thank you so much for being in

1:09:26

the trenches and doing the work. Appreciate it. Thank

1:09:28

you, Anthony.

1:09:29

Thanks for listening to this episode of the Natural Estate

1:09:31

Podcast. Hope you enjoyed it. And if you did,

1:09:34

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