0:01

Hi, I'm Daniel founder of pretty litter

0:03

cats and cat owners deserve better than

0:06

any old-fashioned litter That's why I teamed

0:08

up with scientists and veterinarians to create

0:10

pretty litter It's innovative crystal formula has

0:12

superior odor control and weighs up to

0:14

80% less than clay litter pretty litter

0:16

even monitors health by changing Colors to

0:19

help detect early signs of potential illness

0:21

It's the world's smartest kitty litter go

0:23

to pretty litter calm and use code a cast

0:25

for 20% off your first order

0:27

and a free Cat toy terms and conditions apply

0:29

see site for details Helps

0:39

you sleep at a comfortable temperature? Sleep

0:42

Number SmartBeds lets you individualize

0:44

your comfort, so you sleep

0:46

better together. J.D. Power Rinks

0:48

Sleep Number Number 1 in

0:50

customer satisfaction with mattresses purchased

0:52

in-store. Shop the

0:55

sleep number smart bad starting at

0:57

nine hundred and ninety nine dollars

0:59

for a limited time. Prices higher

1:01

and Alaska and Hawaii for Jdpower

1:03

Twenty Twenty Three Award Information: Visit

1:05

jdpower.com/ Awards only it to number

1:07

store or sleep number.com. Hi,

1:12

I'm Andy Levy, former Fox News and

1:14

CNN HLN guy and current cable news

1:16

conscientious objector. I'm a former libertarian who

1:18

now sits comfortably on the left. Hi,

1:21

I'm Danielle Moody, former educator

1:23

and recovering lobbyist. But today,

1:25

I'm an unapologetic woke commentator

1:27

on America's threats to democracy.

1:29

And I'm producer Jesse Cadden, and I'm here

1:32

to make sure things don't go too far

1:34

off the rails. We're here to have fun,

1:36

smart conversations with some of the most knowledgeable

1:38

and entertaining people in politics, media and beyond.

1:41

Our goal is to try and make

1:43

sense of our current crazy world, our

1:46

new abnormal, and hopefully even make you

1:48

laugh through the tears. What

1:50

a great show we have for you today. We're

1:52

going to be joined by Deputy Executive Director of

1:54

Climate Power and Action Antel Curreis, and she is

1:56

here to talk about her organization's mission and how

1:59

climate change is disproportionate. Fortunately affecting the Latino

2:01

community. Then, New York Times

2:03

bestselling author and writing teacher at Dartmouth

2:05

College, Jeff Charlotte, joins us to tell

2:07

us about his most recent novel, The

2:09

Undertow, Scenes from a Slow Civil War.

2:12

But first, let's have some fun. All

2:14

right, since we're on vacation, Seamus and I

2:16

wrote up some questions. I'm sure it'll be

2:19

very hard to guess who wrote which one.

2:23

And we want to get to know you guys a

2:25

little bit better by having you answer them. So the

2:27

first one, though, very pressing

2:29

question. Trump's VP pick should drop

2:31

any moment now. It's apparently between

2:34

JD Vance, Governor Doug Burgum, and

2:36

little Marco. Any last minute

2:38

wagers before we have the big reveal? You

2:41

mean Tim Scott's been out here

2:43

tap dancing for no reason at

2:45

all? I find that hard to

2:47

believe. He even got this fake

2:49

girlfriend pregnant for this. Yeah, I'm

2:51

like he's having an illegitimate trial

2:53

for this. She got pregnant. That's

2:58

all we know. Andy, are you casting

3:00

aspersions on his asparagus? I'm just saying

3:02

we have no evidence one way or

3:04

the other. I'm just asking questions, Jesse.

3:07

Yes, yes, yes. I

3:09

need to do my own research on

3:11

this. All right, so any wager between

3:14

these three? I mean, what is it?

3:16

White, white, and white Latino. So

3:20

my wager is going to go with, I'm

3:22

going to go with the good set of

3:24

hair, because that's all that man has to

3:26

offer. It's probably plugs too, but I'll go

3:28

with Burgum. I guess I'll go with Vance.

3:31

I mean, God, Burgum. I'll

3:35

go with Vance out of those three. I still somehow

3:38

think it'll be Tim Scott, but. If

3:40

I have to choose for these three,

3:42

I actually go Burgum because Vance and

3:44

Marco Trump knows we'll shank him in

3:47

the end. I don't think he fears

3:49

little Marco as much,

3:51

but he definitely should fear Vance

3:54

because that motherfucker, he will

3:56

make Machiavelli redefined. No, it's

3:58

a good point. Why

4:00

will they wait till the end? They could shank

4:03

him by the inauguration. It

4:05

would make a House of Cards

4:07

Frank Underwood plot look obsolete. Yeah,

4:10

and I guess Bergam would help him

4:12

with, like, you know, CEOs and stuff

4:14

like that. I

4:17

still think it's gonna be Tim Scott, but that's me. Me too. Alright,

4:20

so far. Much later. Best TV you've watched

4:22

so far this year. Oh wow. I'll

4:25

go with Gerard Carmichael's reality

4:27

show. I keep thinking about

4:30

over and over again how

4:32

I think it really revolutionized

4:34

vulnerability and awkward discussions on

4:36

TV and entertaining, and

4:38

I cried a lot

4:40

watching it. I'm gonna

4:42

go with Netflix's three-body

4:45

problem. That was really good. That

4:47

was on my list too. Yeah,

4:50

which was, I think, so

4:52

fucking good. Sci-fi,

4:56

it gives you drama, it

4:58

gives you questions about what kind

5:01

of reality we're actually living inside

5:03

of. Brings in

5:05

AI. There's

5:07

so much going on, and it's based on

5:09

a book, and I watched it in one

5:11

night, and I rarely do that. I could

5:14

not go to sleep. I needed to finish

5:16

the epi—I hope it comes back. Yeah, same.

5:19

It's a three-book series, I think.

5:21

Three-body problem. Highly recommend. I

5:24

think they said it's coming back, but only for one

5:26

more season. No! Yeah, but I

5:28

think I remember hearing that. I

5:30

love three-body problem too. I didn't know you'd watch

5:32

it yet. Yeah. We should talk.

5:35

I think I'll go with Ripley, which

5:37

is also on Netflix, which is

5:39

basically a redo of the talented

5:41

Mr. Ripley, the Patricia Highsmith book,

5:44

with Andrew Scott as Ripley, and

5:47

he is amazing in it, and

5:49

it's shot in gorgeous black and

5:51

white, and all takes place almost

5:53

totally in Italy, and it's just

5:55

beautiful to look at. I really,

5:57

really enjoyed the help. out of

6:00

Ripley. How about movie? Again, it's

6:02

gonna shock people. I

6:06

become essentially like a 12 year old

6:09

who likes action shoot-em-up movies. That

6:11

is my fun time in my

6:13

head. So I saw the latest

6:15

installment of Bad Boys, loved it.

6:17

Oh, I'm excited to see that.

6:20

It was great. It

6:22

was fun. It was just fun. Lots

6:24

of guns and helicopters and fuckery. Like

6:26

it was great. Challengers was fantastic. Civil

6:28

War was fantastic. The first Omen was

6:30

a lot better than it had any

6:32

right to be. And I actually really

6:34

thought it was good. And then I'll

6:37

just throw in, I guess, Love Lies

6:39

Bleeding was, I thought, fantastic. Oh, and

6:41

I saw the TV clip. Agreed on

6:43

a lot of that list. I'm gonna

6:45

throw in with Yours Andy Bottoms was

6:47

another movie I absolutely love. Was that

6:49

this year? Yeah, I at

6:52

least watched it recently. So I think it

6:54

came out of video this year. That was

6:56

last year. That's it's a great movie. Oh,

6:58

Hitman also was was really, really good. That

7:00

was a great movie. Yeah. How about book?

7:04

Are we gonna like pick one of the favorites of

7:06

all of the authors that we You

7:09

guys have authors on this show? I'll

7:13

go. Amanda Montel's The Age of

7:16

Magical Overthinking Notes on Modern Rationalty,

7:18

I think, is the best book

7:20

I've read since Naomi Klein's Doppelgäger.

7:23

It is a great, great music

7:25

on how people are just, instead

7:28

of looking at reality, making up

7:30

shit that they suppose. And she

7:32

really explores the subject brilliantly. The

7:35

chapter on fandoms and what Taylor

7:37

Swift's fans and Charlie XCX's fans

7:40

do to them is unbelievable. Love

7:42

that. This actually is an author

7:45

that we had on this show.

7:47

But I am absolutely obsessed with

7:49

her, which is Nettie Okafour. I

7:52

read book one and book two

7:55

of Shadow Speaker and Like Thunder.

7:57

She is an African. futurists,

8:00

novelists, and the books

8:03

transport you to Niger,

8:06

West Africa in 2074.

8:09

Her characters are always, you

8:11

know, young teenagers that are

8:13

like on their hero

8:16

or heroine's journey. It mixes

8:18

African traditional religion with sci-fi.

8:20

Her writing is beyond, beyond.

8:22

And this was a two-book

8:24

series that I read at

8:26

the beginning of the year.

8:29

I'm gonna go with, I think the best book I've

8:32

read this year, but I think it came out either

8:34

last year or the year before, was Babble by RF

8:37

Quang. RFK Junior? Yeah!

8:41

But the best book that I've

8:43

read, a fiction book, I think

8:45

that actually came out this year

8:47

is Paul Tremblay is just an

8:50

unbelievable writer. And he writes

8:52

mostly horror novels, but they're, I don't

8:54

know how to describe them. I hate

8:56

saying they're very literate because that seems

8:59

like an odd thing to say, but they

9:01

are kind of very literate. And he's got

9:03

a new book that just came out called

9:05

Horror Movie that is one of the most

9:07

unsettling books I've ever read. And I, like,

9:09

I'm not the kind of person who has

9:11

trouble reading horror books late at night. This

9:13

one I had to stop and

9:16

switch to something else at a couple

9:18

points because it was just, it wasn't

9:20

necessarily scary, but it was so unsettling

9:22

that that I literally had to put

9:24

it down because I was not gonna

9:26

go to sleep if I kept reading

9:29

it. So I'll go with that. Okay,

9:32

so how about an album you've

9:34

really loved this year? Oh, that

9:36

is very easy. Cowboy Carter. Like,

9:38

that is, this is not rocket

9:40

science. Did other people put out

9:43

music? Well,

9:45

technically the only record on Betacric

9:48

higher than Cowboy Carter is Charli

9:50

XCX Brat, which is my one.

9:54

Oh, God, I don't know. I've really been enjoying

9:56

a new album by a group called Bin Steller.

10:00

Scream from New York. I've been

10:02

liking that a lot. I like the

10:04

new Decemberist album. I don't know that

10:06

I love it. I really do like

10:08

which Jesse got me into the the

10:10

soundtrack to Challengers. So good. Oh,

10:13

and the soundtrack. I saw the TV glow

10:15

is fantastic. Yeah, such a good album. I

10:18

don't know. There's so many more. I wish we got these

10:20

questions in advance because I would actually scroll

10:22

through and pick stuff. No,

10:24

we'd like to have some spontaneity,

10:26

Andy. I know, but I'm

10:29

not. Yeah, I don't do spontaneity. I

10:33

lead a very regimented life. Daniel,

10:35

how about a podcast? You're loving when I first started

10:37

doing the show, I had like basically

10:40

never listened to a podcast. It

10:43

just wasn't something I want to say.

10:46

Same. Yeah, no, but

10:48

but I have actually not because of

10:50

the show, I don't think. But I

10:52

just I have started actually listening to

10:54

podcasts. Turns out some of them are

10:56

good. Yeah. It's

10:59

so nice to walk and to

11:01

listen to them. Agreed. I listen

11:03

to Chani Nicholas because I really

11:05

like astrology. So I listen to

11:08

her podcast. I listen to also

11:11

Brené Brown's podcast because

11:13

I like inspiration and

11:16

leadership stuff. So I like

11:18

those. But oddly enough, I do not

11:20

listen to podcasts every day. Yeah. And I

11:22

really don't listen to political podcasts. I

11:24

just feel like I need a break

11:26

from politics when I'm listening to podcasts.

11:29

So I tend to listen

11:31

to a lot of comedy podcasts, movie podcasts.

11:33

I've just started listening to Remap Radio, which

11:35

is sort of a video

11:38

game thing. But it's super intelligent

11:40

and they have really interesting discussions.

11:42

Oh, yeah. ESPN's fantasy focused football.

11:44

Nice. See, I do

11:46

listen to Matt out Chris

11:48

Hayes and Lawrence O'Donnell nearly every day

11:50

to prepare for these shows, but on

11:52

a very fast speed. But switched on

11:54

pop, a chart only my favorite podcast

11:57

and how long gone. Agree.

12:00

All right, you're stranded on a desert

12:02

island. Which conservative Supreme Court justice Do

12:05

you choose that you have to sit

12:08

with for an entire year? Oh, wait,

12:10

did you say conservative? Yeah, I sure

12:12

did Oh, you'll be shocked

12:14

to hear which producer thought of this one

12:18

On a deserted island Shit

12:30

bring on Thomas. I

12:32

know people can't see me. So air quotes.

12:34

I'll sit with him on a desert island

12:37

Yeah, yeah, let's do that I

12:41

would go if well, let's see. I think

12:43

it's common knowledge for our listeners Maybe not

12:46

that I was good friends with Neil Gorsuch

12:48

in college. So I could pick him. I

12:50

think I would pick Barrett I

12:52

think she actually has a chance and

12:55

I think i've said this before I

12:57

don't think I agree with her on

12:59

many things politically But I think she

13:01

has shown at least sometimes a reasonableness

13:03

that none of the conservative dudes have

13:06

Yeah And you know, we're starting to

13:08

see some decisions where she is concurring

13:10

with Jackson or with Sotomayor or Kagan

13:13

And and I believe me i'm not

13:15

saying she's anything but a hardcore conservative

13:18

I think she is but I somehow

13:20

think she more than the rest of

13:22

them on that side She is less

13:25

comfortable with sort of bending principle to

13:27

fit her politics I think she would

13:29

be more interesting to hang out with

13:32

for a year Hi,

13:37

I'm Daniel, founder of Pretty Litter. Cats

13:39

and cat owners deserve better than any

13:41

old fashioned litter. That's why I teamed

13:43

up with scientist and veterinarians to create

13:45

Pretty Litter. It's innovative. Crystal Formula has

13:47

superior order control and ways up to

13:49

eighty percent less than clay litter. Pretty

13:52

Litter even monitors health by changing colors

13:54

to help detect early signs of potential

13:56

illness. It's the world's smartest kitty litter.

13:58

so of. litter.com and use Code A

14:00

cast for twenty percent off your first order

14:02

and a free cat toy. Terms and conditions

14:04

apply see site. For details. That's

14:31

H-U-R-R-E-E.co. trynow to get

14:33

started. Ready to start

14:36

talking to your kids

14:38

about financial literacy? Meet

14:40

Greenlight, the debit card and money

14:42

app that teaches kids and teens

14:45

how to earn, save, spend wisely,

14:47

and invest with your guardrails in

14:49

place. Parents can send instant money

14:51

transfers, automate allowance, and more. Plus,

14:53

keep an eye on spending with

14:55

real-time notifications. Join more

14:58

than 6 million parents and

15:00

kids building healthy financial habits

15:02

together on Greenlight. Get your

15:05

first month free at greenlight.com/Acast.

15:07

That's greenlight.com/Acast. When

15:12

picking a commerce platform for your business, you have

15:14

two choices. Or...

15:19

I prefer... Don't

15:22

you? That's the sound you'll

15:24

hear when you switch your business to

15:27

Shopify, the global commerce platform that supercharges

15:29

your selling, wherever you sell, online, in

15:31

person, on social media, and beyond. Shopify

15:33

is the best all-in-one commerce platform capable

15:36

of handling your business's complexity no matter

15:38

how big you grow. Step

15:41

up to Shopify and harness the best

15:43

converting checkout and the same intuitive features,

15:45

trusted apps, and powerful analytics used by

15:47

the world's leading brands like Rothy's, Alberd's,

15:49

Brooklyn Inn, and so much more. You're

15:51

probably thinking, sure, but migrating is going

15:53

to be a headache. Shopify's app store

15:55

has the migration apps you need to

15:57

migrate. your products, orders, customers, and more

15:59

from every major e-commerce platform to Shopify.

16:01

If you're anything like me, you're one

16:03

of those don't put me in a

16:05

box people. Everyone who knows me knows

16:08

I'm a don't put me in a

16:10

box person. And thankfully, Shopify never will

16:12

because with Shopify, control of your brand

16:14

and business is always in your hands

16:16

from your storefront look to your back

16:18

office operations. I hate when checking out

16:20

from an online store and then having

16:22

to pull out my credit card and

16:24

type in all those numbers. A Shopify

16:26

store remembers my shipping address and payment

16:28

information. So if I'm on the couch

16:30

and my wallet is on the kitchen

16:32

counter, I don't even have to get

16:35

up. Stop leaving sales on the table.

16:37

Switch your business to Shopify and discover

16:39

why millions trust Shopify as their all-in-one

16:41

commerce platform to build, grow, and run

16:43

their business. Sign up today for your

16:45

$1 per month

16:47

trial period at

16:50

shopify.com/abnormal, all lowercase.

16:52

That's one month

16:54

for just $1

16:56

at shopify.com/abnormal, all

16:58

lowercase. shopify.com/abnormal. Folks,

17:08

I am very excited to

17:10

welcome to the new abnormal,

17:13

the deputy executive director of

17:15

Climate Power and Axion, Anto

17:18

Cadiz, who will talk with

17:20

us today about a topic

17:22

that I think is incredibly

17:24

important, which is climate change,

17:26

which we are all experiencing.

17:29

If you are living anywhere

17:31

in this country right now,

17:33

you have experienced extreme heatwaves,

17:35

extreme weather conditions at one

17:37

time or another, but how

17:39

climate is disproportionately impacting Latinos.

17:43

Anto, talk to us about the

17:45

mission behind Climate Power and Axion.

17:47

Well, Daniel, first of all, thank

17:49

you so much for inviting me

17:52

today. It's great to be here

17:54

with you. At Climate Power and

17:56

Axion, we basically work to tell

17:58

a story. We want

18:01

to tell the story about

18:03

how climate change is impacting

18:05

our communities. Latinos is a

18:07

project done by Latinos and

18:10

for Latinos. And of course

18:12

we work in an organization, Climate Power. Climate

18:15

Power is an organization that is

18:17

focused on building the political will

18:19

for climate action. I have been

18:22

working for years now and it's

18:24

every day, it's interesting, every day,

18:26

it's exciting. And I feel very

18:28

honored to have the privilege to

18:30

work on climate. So you all

18:33

have just announced a $5 million

18:35

investment in educational ads to show

18:37

what the Biden administration has done

18:39

to combat not just the climate

18:41

crisis, but also improve health and

18:44

economic well-beings for Latinos. When we

18:46

think about issues that are in,

18:48

or at least I should say

18:50

this, when mainstream media speaks about

18:52

your community and the issues that

18:55

are impacting them and the issues

18:57

that they care about, climate change

18:59

is never on that list. So

19:01

talk to us about the importance

19:03

of this $5 million ad campaign

19:06

and investment and why it's

19:08

necessary. And also, what are

19:11

some of the effects that

19:13

your community is experiencing in

19:15

particular? Well, first of all,

19:17

I would argue that climate

19:19

is connected to every issue

19:21

that is a top priority

19:24

for the Latino community in

19:26

this country, in the United

19:28

States, and all over the

19:30

world. Why? Because climate connects

19:32

to everything. And when you

19:35

face extreme weather events, for example,

19:37

let's say your house floods, do

19:40

you think you can work? Do

19:42

you think you can pay your

19:44

bills? Do you think that

19:46

you can send your kids to school?

19:49

Do you think that you're going to

19:52

face health issues too? Every

19:55

single priority issue,

19:57

cost, jobs, health,

19:59

education, Everything

20:01

is connected to climate because

20:03

when climate, unfortunately, when climate

20:06

change impacts you, however

20:08

it is, however is a hurricane,

20:10

is extreme heat, is extreme drought,

20:12

however it is, it impacts part

20:15

of your life. So people don't

20:17

make this connection naturally, but I

20:19

always put examples like when you

20:21

go to a supermarket and you

20:24

find that the fruit you love

20:26

or the vegetables you love are

20:28

more expensive, that is climate, that

20:30

is a climate story because we

20:33

have less water and it's more

20:35

expensive, you know, to have those

20:37

products in the supermarkets. When you

20:39

go renovate your house insurance, for

20:42

example, or your flood insurance, and

20:44

you pay $900 as

20:48

I paid recently for mine, you know

20:50

that is climate too. I

20:52

would say no, seven years ago, my

20:54

flood insurance was $200, Tanya. Now

21:00

it's $900 because climate

21:02

is making everything

21:05

more expensive when it's about

21:07

housing costs. So I will

21:09

say that for our community

21:11

in particular, I mean, I

21:13

can talk about this all

21:15

day, different aspects of your

21:17

life are certainly impacted by

21:19

the climate crisis. And unfortunately,

21:21

communities like Latinos, we are

21:23

at the front lines of

21:25

this crisis. What houses do

21:27

you think are more exposed

21:29

to, for example, climate fires?

21:31

It's communities of color. It's

21:34

like we live in the

21:36

areas that are more exposed

21:38

to rising sea level, to

21:40

extreme heat, to climate fires.

21:43

It's unfortunately the reality we

21:45

live on right now. I'm

21:47

so grateful for the way

21:49

that you weaved in the

21:51

economic disruptions that people are

21:53

experiencing and making it very

21:56

clear in terms of the connection to

21:58

climate change. Because, you know, And, you

22:00

know, we heard, I think it was

22:02

last year, that one of the biggest

22:04

insurers said that they were pulling out

22:06

of the state of Florida, for instance,

22:09

because it was becoming too expensive. Why?

22:12

Because of extreme hurricanes, extreme weather

22:14

that were happening, that they're like

22:16

people's homes are going to be

22:18

flooded all the time. Spaces

22:20

are going to be underwater. Roofs are going

22:22

to blow off because of extreme winds. And

22:25

so they were deciding that between Florida

22:27

and California, that they were going to

22:30

be states that they were

22:32

no longer going to ensure.

22:34

And so that makes people

22:36

incredibly, economically unstable. Absolutely.

22:38

And, Daniel, like when

22:40

someone faces an extreme

22:42

weather event, like

22:44

how vulnerable we are,

22:46

the vulnerable there, you

22:49

never think about it unless it

22:51

happens to you. And I

22:53

have to say, I have to confess here. I have

22:55

been working on climate for four years now. And

22:58

before I had a long career

23:00

being a journalist. And

23:03

of course, climate was one of

23:05

the issues I cover, but it

23:07

was not the main one. I

23:09

covered immigration, for example, education, jobs,

23:11

et cetera. And

23:13

until I experienced it myself,

23:16

I didn't realize how

23:19

incommensurably big

23:21

this issue is. And

23:24

how it can

23:26

completely freeze your life.

23:29

So for me, it's like it was

23:31

a life changing moment in

23:34

spite of the pain and the sorrow

23:36

and the loss that I experienced surviving

23:38

an extreme weather event. I was fortunate

23:40

enough to have all the members of

23:42

my family safe, but it was a

23:44

life changing event for me. And I

23:47

remember like when because I live in

23:49

Katy, Texas, and my house got it

23:52

2017 with Hurricane Harvey. But there was a moment

23:54

where the house was starting to flood and

23:56

we realized that we needed to go out and

23:59

we couldn't. So I went outside

24:01

in the middle of all that dirty,

24:03

poisoned water. And I started to scream

24:05

for help for a boat to come,

24:08

for the rescue boat to come. And

24:10

I had my, at that time, I

24:12

had my three-year-old and my five-year-old with

24:14

me and my niece, when my husband

24:17

was at home. And you know, I

24:19

always go to that specific moment in

24:21

my life when I do this work

24:23

and when I do interviews or when

24:26

I am tired and there is, you

24:28

know, there is more work to be

24:30

done and I am tired and I

24:32

feel that maybe, you know, this can

24:35

wait. I always go back

24:37

to that moment and I feel

24:39

in my heart, this cannot wait.

24:41

This cannot wait. Because I

24:44

don't want for more people to live

24:46

than what I have to live through.

24:48

So for me, it's a matter like

24:50

when I say that climate impacts every

24:53

aspect of your life, I really

24:55

mean it. How will your ads

24:57

seek to educate the community? What

25:00

are some of the things, messages

25:02

that will be a part of

25:04

this $5 million investment to get

25:06

the Latino community to really understand

25:09

what is at stake in this

25:11

upcoming election? Well, what we know

25:13

is that people don't make the

25:15

connection. They don't

25:17

connect climate to cost, to

25:19

jobs, to they just

25:22

don't. So there is a

25:24

lot of work to be

25:26

done to educate the community

25:28

about the impact of climate

25:30

change and about, you know,

25:32

if you're paying more for

25:34

your energy bills, that's climate.

25:36

So when we talk

25:38

to people, when we actually

25:41

inform them and make that

25:43

connection, that has a

25:45

huge impact, a huge impact.

25:48

So it changes their perception and

25:50

it changes the way they see

25:52

the issue and the way they

25:54

see how their family

25:57

may be impacted by this issue. now

25:59

in the present and in the future.

26:02

So we see enormous value

26:04

to reach out to the

26:07

community and talk to them

26:09

about first, how climate change

26:11

is impacting their life. And

26:13

second, how this new green

26:16

energy economy, how the clean

26:18

energy transition is having

26:20

a positive impact for the community.

26:22

And it presents so much opportunities

26:25

for Latinos because we know that

26:27

is the solution. We know that

26:29

we cannot keep polluting the planet

26:31

and we know that we need

26:33

to cut fossil fuels. Otherwise we

26:36

will continue with the climate crisis

26:38

and we will increase the problem.

26:40

We will expand the problem that

26:42

we have right now. So we

26:44

know the only way to do

26:46

that is transitioning to clean energy.

26:49

And that is something that Latinos

26:51

are really open to hear. And

26:53

we have a partner, Somos, and

26:55

they did a study because there

26:57

is this preconception, for example, that

27:00

for our community, oil and gas

27:02

is a job creator, for example,

27:04

and a lot of people that

27:06

comes from Mexico, Ecuador, Venezuela, they

27:08

do have a connection with the

27:10

oil and gas industry because of

27:13

course those countries have a

27:15

lot of oil. But what we found

27:17

in the study that Somos did, Somos

27:19

Un Pueblo Nido did, was that Latino

27:22

workers do not want to work on

27:24

the oil and gas industry anymore. And

27:26

they don't want that for their kids

27:28

either. They think it's too

27:31

dangerous. And they think that it's

27:33

polluting the planet too. What we

27:35

are finding now, talking with, for

27:37

example, Latinos that are working on

27:39

the clean energy industry, is that

27:42

they are seeing how this presents

27:44

a future for them, a long-term

27:46

career, a place where they

27:48

can advance and also a place where

27:50

they can do something for the planet.

27:53

And we know that is ingrained in

27:55

our culture too. What I

27:57

think is important, I mean, you said so many really

27:59

good points. but I almost

28:01

think that the way in general that

28:04

we've been talking about climate change is

28:06

not something that most people can resonate

28:08

with. That we talk about fossil fuels

28:11

and we talk about decades ago it was the ozone

28:13

layer and we talk about melting glaciers

28:15

and these things. And what you

28:18

said with regard to the utility bills, just

28:20

bring it back to people's homes. Bring

28:23

it back to where people are feeling the most burden. Bring

28:26

it back to their refrigerators, that

28:28

bag of grapes, that avocado, used

28:30

to be 99 cents, now is $5 a pound. Your

28:36

utility bill in the summer used to maybe

28:38

go up to 50, 60 bucks. Now

28:41

is at 120, double what it was. If

28:45

we were to break things

28:47

down into manageable, just

28:49

look at your bills. How have

28:51

your bills changed? Because I

28:53

think that too often people are

28:56

incredibly disconnected between what is happening

28:58

outside and what is happening inside

29:00

of their homes. And those two

29:03

things are connected. Absolutely connected. And

29:05

I would say that is one

29:07

of the main priorities and reasons

29:09

why we did this campaign because

29:12

we want to show that connection.

29:14

We want to show that if

29:16

you're paying more for your energy

29:18

bills, that is climate. If you

29:21

are suffering power outages that actually

29:23

maybe put your medicines, the ones

29:25

that you have in the fridge

29:28

at risk, maybe create

29:30

problems for your business, that is

29:32

climate too. If you

29:34

are paying more in the supermarket

29:36

for products that require a lot

29:39

of water, that is climate. If

29:41

you're paying more for house insurance,

29:43

for flood insurance, that is climate.

29:46

And of course, if unfortunately

29:49

you have to work outside

29:52

and you put your life

29:54

at risk, that is climate

29:56

too because Daniel, unfortunately, Latino

29:59

workers... For example, almost 80%

30:02

of farm workers are

30:04

Latinos and they have

30:06

to work outside with

30:08

these temperatures that put

30:10

their life at risk

30:12

every single day. And

30:15

we have a states like Texas,

30:17

like Florida that actually had breaks.

30:20

Yeah, yeah, that said, oh, no

30:22

water breaks. It's a hundred degrees

30:24

outside and a hundred percent humidity.

30:27

And it's like, you

30:29

know perfectly that those are Republican governors

30:31

in the state of Texas where I

30:33

am at right now and in the

30:35

states of Florida. They do

30:37

not believe in climate change.

30:39

They are climate deniers. They

30:42

are kind of the portrait

30:44

of climate denialism. And

30:46

we know also that former

30:48

President Trump and now Republican

30:51

candidate Trump, he's also the

30:53

best and the greatest climate

30:56

denier of all that honestly,

30:58

Daniel gives me a lot

31:01

of anxiety. When I think about

31:04

what can happen with

31:06

everything we have done to

31:08

protect our planet, to protect

31:11

climate, to decrease the impact

31:13

of the climate crisis, having

31:15

the possibility of four

31:18

years of Trump in the White

31:20

House, it will be a complete

31:22

disaster for all of us. And

31:25

especially when we think about

31:27

climate because he will destroy,

31:29

he will destroy everything we

31:31

have done in the last

31:34

four years to actually face

31:36

this crisis, to actually do

31:38

something about it. And we

31:40

cannot let that happen. So

31:42

that is why it's so

31:44

important for people to know

31:47

how climate change is impacting their lives

31:49

and how the transition to

31:51

a new green economy is

31:53

also having a great and

31:55

positive impact for them. Last

31:57

question for you, Anto. How

32:00

will a green economy

32:02

help boost the economic stability of

32:04

the Latino community? Well, what we

32:06

know, and so far, because we

32:09

have to put numbers to this,

32:11

otherwise, you know, Latinos, we show

32:13

it, and then I will believe

32:16

it, we have that type of

32:18

mentality. So we need the numbers. And

32:21

unfortunately, we have, we started to

32:23

see numbers that are showing the

32:26

results. For example, we know that

32:28

since the passage of the climate

32:30

law, for example, we have

32:33

created more than 300,000 new

32:35

jobs, which is billions

32:37

and billions of dollars

32:39

in boosting local economies.

32:41

Those numbers are super

32:43

important for Latinos. Why?

32:46

Because, for example, from those 300,000, more than 127,000 are jobs

32:48

that are located in

32:55

communities with low income, in communities,

32:58

of course, where more Latinos live.

33:00

We know that this clean energy

33:02

economy is bringing a lot of

33:05

opportunities for Latinos. I mean, programs

33:07

like Solar For All, for example,

33:09

that is from the climate bill,

33:12

that will create and will give

33:14

solar power to more than 900,000

33:17

low income families. We

33:21

know that there are programs

33:23

like that one that will

33:25

bring the opportunity for Latinos

33:27

to decrease energy costs through

33:29

clean energy. We know that

33:31

with the rivets we have

33:33

with the climate bill, also

33:35

people have access now to,

33:37

for example, do some weatherization

33:39

in their homes to conserve

33:41

better the energy. And we

33:43

know that a lot of

33:45

the climate action we have

33:48

seen in the last four

33:50

years to protect our air,

33:52

to protect our water, to

33:54

have more clean buses, more

33:56

electric buses for schools, the

33:58

new standards for people. for

34:00

example, all of these measures

34:02

that are intended to decrease

34:04

pollution in water and in

34:06

air, it's having a direct

34:08

impact for communities like Latinos

34:10

because we are the ones

34:12

that are more exposed. It's

34:14

not a coincidence, for example,

34:16

that Latino kids, they

34:19

suffer double asthma attacks in comparison

34:21

with white children, for example. That

34:23

there is a reason behind that

34:26

and is that we live in

34:28

areas that are more polluted. So

34:30

that, like all of these, all

34:32

these elements, and this is like

34:34

when we talk about the impacts

34:36

of climate change for people, this

34:38

is the same. All the impacts

34:40

of the clean energy transition, all

34:42

these different areas are

34:44

making the difference for communities

34:47

like Latinos. And I hope

34:49

that with the campaign we

34:51

launch, we make those

34:53

benefits evident, very

34:56

evident. And so thank

34:58

you so much for the work that you're

35:00

doing, for the work that Climate Power and

35:02

Accion is doing, and for making the time

35:04

to join the new abnormal. Really, really appreciate

35:06

you. Thank you so much, Daniel. It was

35:09

a pleasure to talk with you. Jeff

35:12

Charlotte is someone I absolutely love talking to.

35:14

He teaches writing at Dartmouth College, has won

35:16

multiple awards for his own writing, and is

35:18

the author of seven books. His most recent,

35:21

The Undertow, Scenes from a Slow Civil War,

35:23

was a finalist for the National Book Critics

35:25

Circle Award in the nonfiction category. And he

35:27

joins me now to talk about the state

35:29

of America in 2024. Jeff,

35:32

thanks so much for being here. Oh, good

35:34

to be with you again. So you've now

35:36

got a sub stack at jeffcharlotte.substack.com, and it's

35:39

called Scenes from a Slow Civil War. And

35:41

as you say in the description, after covering Trump in

35:43

2016 and 2020, you

35:45

are gonna sit out 2024, but

35:48

the slow civil war is speeding up. So explain

35:50

what you mean by that. I really thought that

35:52

the media shows no naive. I thought that we

35:55

had all learned our lesson. And 2020, we did.

35:58

You know, press coverage in 2020 was... and

36:00

perfect. It was smarter in 2016. Nobody

36:02

was doing that sort of silliness of,

36:04

well, he can't possibly win or it's

36:06

all bluff or how can you take

36:08

him seriously and so on. The press

36:10

took him seriously in 2020. And that's

36:12

part of what helped stop that second

36:14

term. I think two things are happening

36:16

right now. The press is not uniformly

36:18

taking him seriously. And I was thinking,

36:20

for instance, of a New York

36:23

Times headline I just saw the other day,

36:25

Biden paints pump as a felon. I mean,

36:27

what do you mean paint? He's a felon.

36:29

It's not a matter of opinion. They're still

36:31

doing that kind of both sides. And so

36:34

there's that on that side. But then on

36:36

the other side, what happens when the press

36:38

can take him seriously enough is they don't

36:40

pay attention to the escalating violence and the

36:43

rhetoric. And that started, I'll start, I noticed

36:45

that right after his first

36:47

speech after his indictment, he came roaring

36:49

out with a new kind of anti-Semitic

36:51

trope, which has not really been commented

36:54

on much. He's now a

36:56

lawyer, played in his speeches and says,

36:58

we're going to case out the globalists

37:00

and drive out the communists. He means

37:03

the money changer. That's a direct quote

37:05

of the gospel of John and Mark

37:07

and drive out the money changer. And

37:10

it's an old anti-Semitic idea. The money

37:12

changers are Jews. He means this is

37:15

globalist. This is new thing. That was

37:17

an escalation. And it's

37:19

been going nonstop since until

37:21

now, these recent speeches, we're

37:23

hearing him speak openly

37:26

of violence and

37:29

not even regretfully, but

37:31

in advocacy. And

37:33

too many folks are saying, well, that's

37:35

ridiculous and awful, but that's not going

37:37

to happen. We didn't think generalist was

37:39

going to happen until it did. So

37:41

I decided to go back to the changer. Yeah.

37:45

One of the things you write is you say,

37:47

you basically say the news media is a ghost

37:49

of even what it was in 2020. And

37:52

we're pretty much running out of time for

37:54

the old guard media to figure out that

37:56

democracy versus fascism shouldn't be a gotta hear

37:58

both sides thing. The key

38:00

part of that is that it's a ghost of what

38:02

it was. When I think back even in 2020, and

38:05

the magazine, I

38:07

don't want to name them, I don't

38:09

want to shame them. It's not their

38:11

fault. The magazine that I was reporting

38:13

that for, it was thinner than it

38:15

ever had been, and it's tinier now.

38:17

There's fewer pages with less space. There's

38:19

all kinds of publications that aren't really

38:21

there anymore, like HuffPo and BuzzFeed and

38:23

so on. There's all kinds of newspapers,

38:25

not just the big nationals, but the

38:27

big regionals that used to have reporters

38:30

who would travel the country thinking, the Baltimore

38:33

Sun would say, we need to have a

38:35

reporter who's gonna go and cover this. And

38:37

there's so much less of that, and not

38:39

to mention, this year alone, by some estimates,

38:41

we're gonna lose a quarter to a third

38:44

of our local newspapers around the country. And

38:46

every magazine that survives has less space. I

38:48

don't even want to say, well,

38:51

the press isn't learning. The press isn't there

38:53

anymore. So many of the people who did

38:55

have those skills were the higher paid people

38:57

who are getting laid off and pushed aside.

39:00

And I think that's something that liberals and

39:02

the left actually are not following. The rise

39:04

of fascism is in direct relationship to the

39:06

decline and collapse of American news media, no

39:09

matter how frustrating you find that news media,

39:11

because I hear all the time from people

39:13

saying, I'll never read the New

39:15

York Times. I'll never read the Washington Post. And

39:17

I'm like, great, now Trump trembles. The

39:20

idea that we don't stay engaged with

39:22

these newspapers that screw up all the

39:24

time and that have some bad faith

39:26

actors, also has some brilliant reporters. But

39:28

most importantly, have the resources that nobody

39:30

else has to do this kind of

39:32

reporting. The idea that we're just gonna

39:34

opt out and get our news from

39:36

TikTok, that's doing. Yeah, absolutely. So I'm

39:38

curious, in the undertow, you called what's

39:40

happening in America, you didn't refer to

39:43

it as a crisis, you called it

39:45

a condition. It's been a little over

39:47

a year, I think, since the book

39:49

came out. How is the patient doing?

39:52

We're not responding to treatment. Yeah.

39:56

And we're not getting the treatment. You know, there

39:58

may be a slow drip of medicine on a

40:00

doctor. a little while ago left and the infection

40:02

is spreading. Part of what's interesting to me too

40:05

is I see a kind of grief

40:07

reaction and liberals on the left. And

40:09

we see this in that term that

40:12

we hear sometimes opium, this idea, everything's

40:14

fine and mine is really ahead. No

40:16

one's gonna vote for Trump again. And

40:19

then on the flip side, the hysteria.

40:21

And then we see people retreating to

40:23

issues that are absolutely number one important

40:25

essential. The warrant Gaza is essential. But

40:28

when I see folks I've known for

40:30

years, smart, leftist, writers and

40:32

journalists say things, I don't wanna get in

40:34

particular. See, I'm thinking of one particular journalist

40:37

going saying, well, we don't know what Trump's

40:39

position on Gaza is. So he's not gonna

40:41

vote for Biden. And I'm not getting into

40:43

people's fight with people over the conscience and

40:46

so on. But that's a collapse of news

40:48

too. We certainly do know what Trump's position

40:50

on Gaza is. It's even more monstrous. And

40:52

certainly know what his position on Islam is.

40:54

It is Islamophobic to the extreme. And yeah,

40:57

I think people sort of wanna not wrestle

40:59

with the scale and the vastness of the

41:01

horror that could come if we don't organize

41:03

ourselves. So they pick this issue or that

41:05

issue and they're all essential issues. They all

41:08

need to be on the front line. They

41:10

don't wanna take anything away from that. But

41:12

then they take that issue and they make

41:14

it the only thing they can see. And

41:17

we're all at risk because of that. Yeah,

41:19

absolutely. I wanna talk about something that you

41:21

wrote. Trump gave a speech in Las Vegas

41:23

in early June and it was widely covered.

41:26

One of the things he said to the crowd in the 100

41:29

plus degree heat was, I don't care about

41:31

you, but I don't wanna even talk about

41:33

that. I do, you gotta let me talk

41:35

about that. Absolutely. That point right there is

41:38

why I decided, okay, am I gonna go

41:40

back and write about this again? That point

41:42

right there is a perfect illustration because that's

41:44

Trump bait. I saw it in 16, I

41:46

saw it in 20, Hershey, Pennsylvania. He said,

41:48

12 more years, watch this. The press is

41:50

only gonna talk about that 12 more years

41:53

the next day. That was the only line

41:55

in the press and what they didn't cover

41:57

in fact was the 15 minute riff he

41:59

did. on the faces of death

42:01

for her show, kind of rape and pillaging

42:03

that he says was happening in the country.

42:06

They didn't pay attention to that. He did

42:08

the same thing in Las Vegas. He says,

42:10

I don't care about you. It was transparently

42:12

a joke. I'm not defending him. People say,

42:14

how could you? I'm not defending him. And

42:17

the next breath he says, and that's what

42:19

the press is going to talk about. And

42:21

holy shit, if they just, I mean, it

42:23

was like a fish leaping out of the

42:25

air for the bait. Sometimes I'm an MSNBC.

42:27

Trump even admits it now. He doesn't care.

42:30

And what they didn't understand or didn't care

42:32

to work with because it was just easier

42:34

to run with that. One, it was a

42:36

joke. And two, he doesn't care about people.

42:38

Three, they know that or they love him

42:41

for it. Right? Instead of meeting him, instead

42:43

of saying, let us contend with this fascist

42:45

threat. Let's pretend we have a gotcha while

42:47

we get reeled out of the water. No,

42:49

for sure. And I'm glad that you wanted

42:51

to talk about that because I couldn't agree

42:54

with you more on that. But I wanted

42:56

to talk about something else that you took

42:58

away from the whole Trump in Vegas experience.

43:00

And that was about the opening speakers, people

43:03

like the utterly despicable Wayne Allen route and

43:05

the fact that they didn't get and they

43:07

just never do get much coverage from the

43:09

CNNs of the world. But you refer to

43:12

them as the unregulated id of a Trump

43:14

rally. And I think that's exactly right. And

43:16

also just such an important point that needs

43:18

to be, you know, explored by a lot

43:20

more people. I mean, this again, where's the

43:23

press on 1620? I remember I

43:26

started going to my first Trump

43:28

rally reporter in 16. And I've

43:31

been writing about the religious right

43:33

for 20 years. And I heard

43:35

religious right preachers. I was hearing

43:37

some of the furthest right, most

43:39

militant stuff I'd ever heard. And

43:41

I'd look around at the press and they'd

43:43

be on their phones, you know, because this

43:45

is not the main event. This isn't politics.

43:47

And here we are in 24. And we're

43:49

not paying attention to a Trump rally is

43:51

an hour, an hour and a half speech

43:54

by Trump. But it's really a 10 hour

43:56

affair. And you're going to report that

43:59

as a reporter. You go to an event

44:01

that's 10 hours and you only pay attention

44:03

to an hour of it, you haven't reported

44:05

it. And Wayne Allen Root is a great

44:07

example. He actually opened for Trump in 20

44:09

and Vegas as well. This

44:11

guy who was run out of Las

44:14

Vegas, this right wing paper for being

44:16

too extreme, who denied

44:18

the murder of Heather Heyer in Charlottesville.

44:21

People were members who was an activist

44:23

in Charlottesville, Virginia, at the Unite the

44:25

Right rally, a fascist white supremacist ran

44:27

her down in his car, was convicted

44:30

of murder. He denied it

44:32

and he denied it on the grounds.

44:34

He says, no conservative I've ever met

44:36

has ever committed an act of violence

44:38

ever. So that is line.

44:41

And then what's he do in Vegas

44:43

this past June, it was a pure

44:45

war speech and it just

44:47

started. You knew he was speaking in

44:49

metaphor, but the metaphor started to fall

44:51

away. The metaphor started to harden and

44:54

become concrete, talking about we're going to

44:56

fight. This is a war. This is

44:58

a battle where, you know, I mean,

45:00

really extreme language working up and proud.

45:04

And you know, we don't have to ask

45:06

ourselves, is Trump talking about civil war? It's

45:08

the opening sermon at his rally. Let's pay

45:10

attention. Let's talk to that. Let's listen to

45:12

those folks. And also what I've loved about

45:14

that rally, I was going to go in

45:16

Vegas and I decided not to give them

45:18

a wimp and it was going to be

45:20

a deep dome. And I'm like, I don't

45:22

want to do it. And

45:25

right wing broadcaster RSBN, they did

45:27

six hours of wandering around, kind

45:29

of doing what I do when

45:31

I go to those rallies, just

45:33

talking to everyday people. But of

45:35

course, they're speaking as, you know,

45:37

one fascist to another. And you

45:39

heard these ideas, you heard fantasies

45:41

of everyday people, each one of

45:43

which can be dismissed as fringe.

45:45

Right. And that's part of what the world don't

45:47

get. Not exclusively.

45:50

I think Donnie Donnie, the Irishman reports for

45:52

CNN. He's terrific. The rest of

45:54

it is he goes and he talks to

45:56

folks at the rally. You're not paying attention

45:59

to that fringe. All those folks. each with

46:01

their unusual ideas, they are the fabric of

46:03

Trumpism. And if one seems

46:05

goofy, add them up. And what you're

46:08

looking at there in Nevada is the

46:10

strong possibility of a Trump victory in

46:12

a battleground state. I know you've said

46:14

that The Undertow is ultimately a hopeful

46:17

book. And I'm curious if you still

46:19

feel that way, not about the book,

46:21

obviously, but about America's condition. Are you

46:24

still ultimately hopeful? I am both long

46:26

range and short range, right? Long range,

46:28

and when I wrote The Undertow, and

46:31

even with what I think is the

46:33

interior and condition then, there's no question

46:35

at this point that we are going

46:38

to go through a phase of real

46:40

fascism in America. Whether that fascism will

46:42

return to the White House, I don't

46:45

know. But it's certainly going to be

46:47

the Republican Party. I think it is

46:49

fair to say, it's a fascist-dominated party

46:52

now. It's not exclusively fascist, obviously. But

46:54

the fascists are in control. I mean,

46:56

we've got an insurrectionist, Scott Perry, just

46:59

added to the Intelligence Committee, because, as

47:01

Mike Johnson says, Trump told him to.

47:03

Less attention was paid to the Armed

47:06

Services Committee, a representative named Mike Higgins

47:08

from Louisiana, also an insurrectionist, who I

47:10

wrote about last year for his openly

47:13

pro-Civil War rhetoric. That's there. Those people

47:15

are in power. We're going to go

47:17

through that. I believe that

47:19

we're going to come out the other side,

47:22

or at least some of us are. And

47:24

that's the measured optimism. There's going to be

47:26

folk laws. And that's already happening. But I

47:28

do believe we'll come out the other side.

47:31

How long and how many are lost, that's

47:33

up to us in the meantime. In the

47:35

short term, though, I wouldn't say optimistic. It's

47:37

a thin hope if you're pinning whatever optimism

47:39

you have on Joe Biden winning. And there's

47:42

nothing one can say about Joe Biden that

47:44

won't get you yelled at at this point.

47:47

If I in any way acknowledge any weakness that

47:50

folks like, how dare you speak in all of

47:52

the greatest president I've ever known? And

47:55

if I say, yeah, I think my

47:57

optimism is pinned on. the possibility. I

48:00

think it is possible for him to

48:02

beat Trump. Others are going to say,

48:04

what's the difference? He's just the same

48:06

as Trump. He's not just the same

48:09

as Trump. I'll leave it

48:11

to the policy wonks, list you all the policies

48:13

that are different. And I'll leave it to others

48:15

to say like, here are all the deep, deep

48:17

problems with him. But he's not Trump. He's not

48:20

the end of voting in America, which is what

48:22

Trump doesn't could be. I think

48:24

he could win. I think we have to

48:26

organize. I think I see people organizing as

48:28

much as I see the press not taking

48:31

things seriously enough. And I'll say, look, I

48:33

can, you know, I can give you names

48:35

of reporters who I think are doing great

48:38

job editors, maybe not so much Washington Post

48:40

with this absurdity of hiring these allegedly editors

48:44

from UK to run Washington

48:46

Post at this most critical time is

48:48

is actually but there's still great orders

48:50

at all those institutions doing hard work.

48:52

And I saw a good story the

48:54

other day, a little while

48:56

ago, the New York Times, and we're

48:58

going to see more organizations saying, okay,

49:01

let's not just focus on the election,

49:03

but let's put things in place to

49:05

be prepared to hunker down. Right. If

49:07

Trump comes back, I was inspired by

49:09

the governor of Washington stockpiling in state,

49:12

though can't be blocked or some medications.

49:14

That's the work and that I see

49:16

people doing that didn't happen in 16,

49:18

obviously, and didn't really happen at 20.

49:20

I see a learning curve.

49:23

Did you see the Alex Garland film

49:25

Civil War? I did

49:27

for a while I resolved I'm not going

49:29

to talk about anybody with it. I thought

49:32

it was so powerful in so many different

49:34

ways. And I thought I'm seeing a different

49:36

movie, apparently than what so many have written

49:38

about. I talked to other journalists felt the

49:40

same way. I talked to journalists

49:42

to like, that's not what photo journalism is

49:44

really like. I didn't think so. It's a

49:46

movie and it signals not only a movie,

49:49

but also in this kind of hallucinatory phase,

49:51

I thought there's a lot to be aware

49:53

of in that movie, not in a literal

49:55

direct line. And the same with the handmade

49:57

sale is not a portrait. Massachusetts

50:00

is going to look like five

50:02

years from now. Right. Trump comes

50:04

back. But it's the mood of

50:06

fascism and disruption and break down

50:08

an exhaustion of those who have

50:10

been on the front lines, whether

50:12

as journalists or activists or organizers.

50:15

But I think that movie captures. Yeah, no,

50:17

I'm with you. I absolutely loved it. I've

50:20

had discussions slash arguments with people

50:22

about it because they didn't feel

50:25

the same way. And everything they

50:27

sort of didn't like about

50:29

it, I thought was good. Like they kept saying,

50:31

well, I couldn't tell what sides were what. And I

50:33

was like, well, yeah, that's a civil war in America.

50:36

I think showing that confusion and

50:38

the uncertainty and are these people

50:40

my friends, are these people my

50:42

enemies, are they the good guys,

50:44

are we the good guys? I

50:47

thought it was a really powerful

50:49

portrayal of, in particular, that

50:51

aspect of what a split of

50:53

this country could mean. Absolutely. Although

50:55

I would say some folks,

50:57

I'm like, well, I couldn't tell was the president

51:00

supposed to be a good guy or a bad guy? It

51:02

was Trump. And if you couldn't tell that,

51:04

you haven't been paying attention, right? But a

51:06

key moment, and I think this goes toward

51:08

the kind of reporting that I want to

51:10

see now so that we

51:12

never come to that point, is in the

51:15

movie, our photojournalist protagonists, they come upon a

51:17

battle between men in uniform, and you're not

51:19

even sure what side they're on, and some

51:21

other men were wearing Hawaiian shirts and looked

51:24

appear to be some kind of militia. Well,

51:26

you and I know, I think, because we

51:28

covered the right, that the guys in

51:30

Hawaiian shirts are like the boogaloo boys. That's

51:32

a real thing that exists now. And the

51:35

confusion of what side the boogaloo boys on,

51:37

that's also a real thing that exists now.

51:39

The boogaloo boys who would show up and

51:41

they said, we're going to march with Black

51:44

Lives Matter, there was also boogaloo boys at

51:46

January 6, in the same way that, for

51:48

instance, and this breaks my heart because it's

51:50

older now, it's old timey, old time listeners

51:53

remember Occupy Wall Street. More than a few

51:55

veterans of Occupy Wall Street, which I thought

51:57

was a brilliant movement of deep political imagination.

52:00

curdled and soured and you see them

52:02

now in the heart of Trumpism, you

52:04

see them now, they're J6ers and so

52:06

on. Not all of them. I was

52:09

an occupied, I'm not a J6er. But

52:11

those lines shift and we know that

52:13

from history too and I think that

52:15

kind of that appeal to clarity, those

52:17

are folks who haven't even done the

52:19

very right work of watching the history

52:21

channel to understand that fascism in Italy

52:24

begins with an avant-garde artistic movement and

52:26

anarchists or to be paying attention to

52:28

really read the news from Ukraine. You

52:30

read the news from Ukraine and even

52:32

in Ukrainian army it's hard sometimes to

52:34

know which side people are on, which

52:36

is the nature of horrific wars. And

52:39

the way that Trumpism is infecting America

52:41

and it's infecting everybody, most immediately the

52:43

right, but also the left is this

52:45

idea that we can have simple clarity

52:47

that there's good guys and bad guys

52:49

and you can tell by looking right

52:52

away and that the bad guys are

52:54

pure evil and the good guys are

52:56

pure good. That's a Trumpist idea. That's

52:58

a fascist idea that is not a

53:00

democratic idea. I want us to resist

53:02

it and I want to see us,

53:04

my fellow journalists, sort of go and

53:07

lay through that murk. Jeff, I always,

53:09

as I said at the top, I

53:11

love talking to you and I wasn't

53:13

sure if I should ask you about

53:15

the movie and I'm so glad I

53:17

did. Folks, go check out jeffcharlotte.substack.com. If

53:19

you haven't read The Undertow, you're really

53:22

missing out. And Jeff, thank

53:24

you so much for coming back on.

53:26

Thanks, Andy. Hope you enjoy checking out

53:28

this episode of The New Abnormal. We're

53:30

back every Tuesday, Friday and Sunday. If

53:32

you enjoyed it, please share it with

53:34

a friend and keep the conversation going.

53:36

This podcast is a Daily Beast production

53:38

with production by Jesse Cannon and Seamus

53:40

Calder. Hi,

53:44

I'm Daniel, founder of Pretty Litter. Cats

53:46

and cat owners deserve better than any

53:48

old-fashioned litter. That's why I teamed up

53:51

with scientists and veterinarians to create Pretty

53:53

Litter. Its innovative crystal formula has superior

53:55

odor control and weighs up to 80%

53:57

less than clay litter. Pretty Litter even

53:59

monitors health by changing colors to help

54:01

detect early signs of potential illness. It's

54:04

the world's smartest kitty litter. Go to

54:06

prettylitter.com and use code ACAST for

54:08

20% off your first order and a free

54:10

cat toy. Terms and conditions apply. See site

54:12

for details. Want to teach your kids

54:15

financial literacy, but not sure where to

54:17

start? Greenlight can help. With

54:19

Greenlight, parents can keep an eye on kids

54:21

spending and saving, while kids and teens use

54:23

a card of their own to build money

54:26

confidence. As a parent, you

54:28

can send instant money transfers, set up

54:30

chores, automate allowance, and more. It's a

54:32

convenient way to run your household, customize

54:35

to your family's needs, and the easy

54:37

way to raise financially smart kids. Get

54:40

started with Greenlight today and get

54:42

your first month free at greenlight.com/

54:44

ACAST.