0:00

The New Yorker Radio Hour Fiction is

0:02

supported by the official sympathizer podcast from

0:04

HBO. From executive producers Park

0:06

Chan-Wook and Robert Downey Jr., The

0:09

Sympathizer is the new HBO original limited

0:11

series based on the Pulitzer Prize winning

0:13

novel of the same name. On

0:16

the official sympathizer podcast, join host Phillip

0:18

Nguyen in conversation with the cast, crew

0:20

and author Viet Tan Nguyen as they

0:22

discuss the making of this historic series.

0:25

Stream new episodes of HBO's The

0:27

Sympathizer, Sundays exclusively on Macs and

0:30

listen to The Sympathizer podcast wherever you

0:32

listen to podcasts. This

0:34

episode is brought to you by Progressive Insurance. Whether

0:37

you love true crime or comedy, celebrity

0:40

interviews or news, you call the

0:42

shots on what's in your podcast queue. And guess what?

0:45

Now you can call them on your auto insurance

0:47

too with the name your price tool from Progressive.

0:49

It works just the way it sounds. You tell

0:51

Progressive how much you wanna pay for car insurance

0:54

and they'll show you coverage options that fit your

0:56

budget. Get your quote today at progressive.com to

0:58

join the over 28 million drivers who

1:01

trust Progressive. Progressive Casualty Insurance Company and

1:03

affiliates, price and coverage match limited by

1:05

state law. This

1:12

is the New Yorker Fiction Podcast from the New

1:14

Yorker Magazine. I'm Deborah Treisman, fiction

1:17

editor at the New Yorker. Each

1:19

month we invite a writer to choose a story

1:21

from the magazine's archives to read and discuss. This

1:24

month we're going to hear likes by

1:26

Sarah Swan-Yen Vynum, which appeared in

1:28

the New Yorker in October of 2017. Even

1:31

to his own ears, he sounded sorry for himself,

1:34

but his daughter, good for her, was

1:36

not thinking about him or his feelings. She

1:39

stared at the elevator doors. You're

1:41

making me feel like I talk too much. She

1:43

whispered furiously, deep in her

1:46

own embarrassment. The story was chosen

1:48

by David Bismoskis who is the author of

1:50

two novels and two story collections, Natasha

1:53

and Other Stories, which won the Commonwealth Writers

1:55

Prize for Best First Book, and

1:57

Immigrant City, which was a finalist for the Giller Prize

1:59

in 2019. Hi David.

2:02

Hi Deborah. Welcome back to

2:04

the show. Thank you. Nice to be back. When

2:07

you were deciding what to read

2:09

today you hesitated between two stories

2:12

by Sarah Swenyan Bynum. Can

2:14

you tell me what made you choose likes in the end

2:16

and and also what just makes you a fan of her

2:18

work in general? I guess you

2:20

know what made me choose it was kind of

2:23

a sort of

2:25

a superficial reason because they're

2:27

both wonderful stories and she's

2:30

excellent at writing children and

2:32

both of those stories feature kids

2:34

in one way or another and

2:37

I just love also how funny she

2:39

can be. There's this

2:42

wonderful sort of wry humor or sometimes

2:44

you know more than wry. These stories

2:46

can be very very funny which

2:48

I always enjoy. Yeah. What

2:51

do you think she does with the

2:53

lives of children that is

2:55

unusual? It's a good question. I don't know

2:57

if I don't know if it's unusual but she's very good at

3:00

it. It's hard to do. It's

3:02

very hard to do. I can't

3:04

think of a thing in writing that

3:06

is easy to choose but it's hard.

3:09

I think something as simple as like

3:11

making them feel like real people not

3:13

condescending and also giving them kind of

3:15

a wildness. In the other story, the

3:18

one that we were not talking about, the Earl

3:20

King, there's a remarkable

3:23

vivid dark fantasy

3:26

world to the child

3:28

that's kind of menacing

3:30

and otherworldly. Sarah

3:32

just does such a remarkable job making

3:34

it feel real and here

3:38

it's also it's like it's intimating

3:40

the unspoken you know the things that

3:42

children don't tell you and she has

3:44

a way of creating these spaces in her stories

3:47

because they're stories of not just children with

3:50

children but they're almost always stories of parents

3:52

and children and

3:54

so it's like what the parent wants

3:57

to know and can't know and that's

4:00

that becomes a feature of it. And that's definitely

4:02

a big part of likes. Right.

4:05

So the story is more

4:07

or less told from the point of view of a father, the

4:09

father of a sixth grader. And

4:12

it involves her Instagram feed, among

4:14

other things. And the story came out almost

4:17

seven years ago. But

4:19

I feel like for parents of tween

4:22

or teenage girls, which both of us

4:24

are, it still

4:26

feels very contemporary. Yeah,

4:28

I mean, that's part of the superficial reason

4:31

for choosing it. The

4:33

fact that it

4:35

feels very contemporary from that respect, which

4:37

is surprising because of how

4:40

fast we feel like technology move. And

4:43

it feels really like nothing has changed in

4:45

that respect. And the other respect is

4:48

the other side of the story, because it's

4:50

two things that happen at once, like the

4:52

father's following this Instagram feed, but it's a

4:54

particular moment in time, which is the

4:56

2016 election. And

4:58

so these things get fused

5:00

together in an interesting way. They're

5:04

related because of, we'll

5:06

talk about it after I suppose, but it's like, what

5:09

is it about that election? And what

5:11

is it about the father's inability to

5:13

understand his daughter, that are sort of

5:16

common elements? Right,

5:18

we're facing a similar election.

5:22

So maybe that's what makes it feel even more timely.

5:24

Well, that's it, yeah. That's sort of the superficial

5:26

thing that in a way I've come embarrassed to

5:28

say that that's part of the reason for choosing

5:30

it, but it is remarkable to come across a

5:32

story eight years later practically, and see that we're

5:34

kind of in the same place. Well,

5:36

we will talk some more after the story. And

5:39

now here's David Bismoskis reading, Likes

5:42

by Sarah Swenyan Bynum. Likes.

5:48

The dad scrolled through his daughter's Instagram

5:51

account, looking for clues. The

5:53

most recent post was a photograph of an

5:55

ice cream cone, extravagantly large, held

5:57

up against a white wall by a disembodied hand.

6:00

hand, peppermint stick or

6:02

strawberry. The mound

6:04

was starting to melt, a trickle of it

6:06

inching down the cone and drawing dangerously close

6:08

to the thumb, his daughter's. The

6:11

next photo was a close-up of a shop window. Inside

6:14

the window glowed a pink neon sign spelling

6:17

out the word, warm, in lowercase

6:19

letters. The glowing word took

6:21

up most of the frame. It was

6:23

impossible to tell what sort of store it was. Another

6:27

close-up, an eraser-colored rose

6:29

its petals halfway unfurled, a

6:32

panorama, the sky at sunset,

6:35

a shot of her dog, Bob, curled up

6:37

like a cinnamon bun on the pleated peachy

6:39

expanse of her bed, and

6:41

then an earlobe. Was that what it was? Soft,

6:44

rounded, partly in shadow. He

6:47

closed his eyes and put down the phone. His

6:50

daughter was nearly twelve and difficult

6:52

to talk to. Normally

6:55

she rode the bus home from school, but now

6:58

that she had to do physical therapy twice a week,

7:00

he had been picking her up and taking her to the

7:03

appointment. He felt responsible. These

7:06

problems with her joints, runner's knee,

7:08

Achilles tendonitis were undoubtedly

7:10

a handicap she'd inherited from his gouty

7:13

side of the family. In

7:15

ballet class, she could no longer do

7:17

grand plies or go up to relevé.

7:20

In the middle of the night, she would wake up in

7:22

pain. He kept a

7:24

tin of tiger balm on her nightstand

7:27

so that she could find it easily in the dark. The

7:30

physical therapist was a young woman dressed as

7:32

an older one in iron slacks and support

7:34

shoes. She had a

7:36

secretive smile and a stiff demeanor. The

7:39

dad didn't always feel comfortable asking her

7:41

questions, but his daughter seemed to

7:44

like her. Hi, Ivy, the therapist would murmur

7:46

as they entered the office, her little

7:48

smile widening, and the two of

7:51

them would disappear into the equipment. From

7:53

the waiting room, the dad could hear

7:55

the whir of the stationary bicycle and

7:57

the sound of their voices, his silent

8:00

tenant companion from the car suddenly

8:02

talkative. It made a kind

8:04

of music, the wheel spinning and her talking.

8:07

Correction. His daughter wasn't entirely

8:09

silent in the car. She

8:12

sang along to songs on the radio,

8:14

songs patchy with blanked-out words, that

8:17

she made a point of mouthing but didn't say aloud.

8:20

A billboard might prompt her to ask a question

8:22

like, Why is she drinking out

8:24

of a paper bag? Sometimes

8:26

gazing at her phone she would let out

8:28

a low triumphant hiss. Yes!

8:32

She had gotten every answer right on the Kylie

8:34

Jenner quiz. Received

8:36

seventy-four likes on her ice cream photo. Set

8:39

a new personal record on her Snapchat

8:41

streak with Tolia. Other

8:43

days her phone lay inert in her lap. Only

8:46

last week she had asked, eyes

8:48

brimming and fixed on the dashboard. Dad,

8:51

can I be home-schooled? Undone,

8:53

he'd answered. Sure.

8:57

After physical therapy in the elevator heading down

8:59

to the parking lot he gave her a

9:01

squeeze and said, You're quite the conversationalist in

9:03

there. His daughter looked at

9:05

him with alarm. Of

9:07

course it hadn't come out the way he'd wanted it to. I'm

9:10

glad, he tried again, that there's

9:12

an adult you enjoyed talking to. Which was

9:14

true, although it sounded as if he

9:16

meant the opposite. Even to his

9:18

own ears he sounded sorry for himself, but his

9:21

daughter, good for her, was not

9:23

thinking about him or his feelings. She

9:25

stared at the elevator doors. You're

9:28

making me feel like I talk too

9:30

much, she whispered furiously, deep in

9:32

her own embarrassment. New

9:34

Instagram post. A peeled-off

9:36

pair of ballet tights splayed on the white

9:39

tiles of a bathroom floor. Some

9:43

days his daughter's quietness in the car

9:45

felt blank and mysterious, but some days

9:47

it felt excruciatingly full, like

9:49

an inflamed internal organ about to burst.

9:52

On one such afternoon the dad said carefully,

9:55

I'm not going to look at you.

9:57

I'm not going to say anything. I'm

10:00

just going to keep my eyes on the road. I'm

10:02

going to keep driving, and when you're ready,

10:05

you say whatever you want." After

10:07

a moment of silence, she said, I'm

10:10

considering it. And then, can

10:12

I curse? He nodded. She

10:15

asked. He won't make any

10:17

noises or have any expressions at all on

10:19

your face. He nodded again. They

10:22

drove for several more minutes. The

10:25

effort was killing him. Also

10:27

the dread. He wasn't sure if

10:29

he had the capacity to receive whatever feeling it was

10:31

that she was full of. When

10:34

they were only three blocks from the therapist's office,

10:37

she said to the windshield, I have no

10:39

friends. As he eased

10:41

into the parking lot, she said, and don't tell

10:43

me you were just at Annie's house last Friday.

10:45

I know that's what you're going to say, but

10:48

you can't make me feel better. People

10:50

only hang out with me because there's nobody else around.

10:53

I'm not their friend. She opened

10:55

the car door slowly. I'm their second

10:57

choice. She

11:00

heaved her backpack off the floor while he

11:02

stayed behind the wheel, noticing his

11:04

breath and absorbing the punch in various parts of

11:06

his body. Why hadn't she cursed?

11:10

New post. A hamburger

11:12

with lettuce and thousand-island dressing, cut

11:14

in half, cooked medium-rare. The

11:18

physical therapist recommended a series of exercises to

11:20

do at home. Some, like

11:22

the calf raises, were straightforward. But

11:25

others had names such as Clam. Studying

11:28

the printout with its unhelpful black and white

11:30

drawings, the dad asked, you

11:33

understand what all of this means? Fire

11:36

hydrant, dipping bird, short bridge,

11:38

clock. His daughter

11:40

didn't glance up from her phone. Uh-huh. He

11:43

stuck the paper to the refrigerator with a magnet.

11:46

It looked somewhat quaint there. All

11:48

her handouts from school were now distributed

11:50

digitally for environmental reasons. You

11:53

know you're supposed to be doing these every night, no

11:55

answer. Marooned on one

11:58

side of the island, he wondered not for the

12:00

first time, if open concept

12:02

was such a great thing after all. Was

12:05

she in the kitchen, talking with him,

12:07

or was she in the family room, on

12:09

the sofa, with her phone, unclear?

12:13

Without untying the laces, she scraped

12:15

off her sneakers, toed a heel, two

12:18

consecutive thunks. Your

12:20

progress depends on it, you know that, right? Elegantly

12:23

she lifted her long legs up and out

12:25

of sight. TV? She

12:28

sank beneath the horizon of the sofa. Hello?

12:31

Guess what? Her only homework was to

12:33

watch TV. This was

12:36

what his daughter announced when he picked her up

12:38

from ballet class. In a

12:40

series of texts, he and his wife agreed

12:42

that they would order ramen and

12:44

watch the presidential debate as a family. And

12:47

though it took them a while to get

12:49

started, the restaurant had sent only one spicy

12:51

instead of two, and when they

12:53

sat down on the sofa, Bob kept jumping into their

12:55

laps and had to be crated. Once

12:58

they finally organized themselves, with

13:01

their drinks and their bowls and their napkins

13:03

and their chopsticks, it felt warm

13:05

and momentous being there together in front of

13:07

the television. Dorothy

13:09

muttered encouragement at the moderator. Keep

13:11

at him, she said, bent over her noodles. Keep

13:14

the pressure on. As

13:16

long as Dorothy was leaning forward, he could now

13:18

and then steal a sideways glance at his daughter.

13:21

She appeared to be paying attention, her

13:23

eyes slightly widened, and her bowls

13:25

sitting neglected on the coffee table. Then

13:28

suddenly she leaped off the sofa and

13:30

ran upstairs. You all right? He

13:33

called. Ivy? It's

13:35

making me uncomfortable, she yelled from the top

13:37

of the staircase. He

13:39

could picture her standing there, one foot raised,

13:41

ready to flee. Tell me when this

13:43

part is over, okay? He

13:46

wanted to share a commiserating look with Dorothy, but

13:48

she was still watching the screen, sawing

13:51

her little pendant back and forth on its chain.

13:54

So much for current events, he said. His

13:57

daughter had a pretty collection of pens and pencils.

14:00

pencils, a tiny roll of

14:02

tape, a pink pocket stapler, and

14:04

a packet of candy-colored paper clips. All

14:08

these items lived inside a sleek gold

14:10

pouch with a zipper, and

14:12

were brought out into the open when she was doing

14:14

her homework at the kitchen table. Her

14:16

tapered fingers danced over them in search

14:19

of the right highlighter. Her

14:21

fingernails sparkled, her school supplies

14:23

sparkled. She had affixed

14:25

very small puffy stickers in

14:28

specific places to her notebooks

14:30

and binders. Watching

14:32

her at work, he realized with pride that

14:34

his daughter would have been one of those girls

14:37

who intimidated him when he was that age. When

14:41

he was that age, a slight prickling,

14:44

like sensation, restoring itself to a

14:46

numb hand was his old

14:48

self considering a return. To

14:51

his surprise, he had trouble recalling his

14:53

thoughts and emotions from sixth grade. Surprising

14:56

because he remembered the fact of

14:58

having felt things, he

15:00

was the point at which his parents took to calling

15:02

him Heathcliff. There

15:05

were a few standouts, to be sure, the

15:07

memory of being lifted into the air and carried

15:09

on a gurney, after he had

15:11

badly sprained his ankle on the basketball court,

15:14

and noticing how far away the ceiling of the gym

15:16

appeared, and the menacing pattern of

15:18

the rafters. But in terms

15:21

of day-to-day, twelve-year-old feelings, he

15:23

had, strangely, lost access. And

15:26

the access needed to be only temporary. All

15:29

he wanted was a point of comparison. Was

15:32

what she was going through normal. In

15:35

the afternoons he held his breath, never

15:37

knowing which girl was going to climb into the

15:39

passenger seat. The happy one,

15:42

braces flashing, asking if they

15:44

could make a really quick stop at Baskin-Robbins,

15:47

or the other one, the one in pain. Had

15:50

he ever felt that way, too? If only he

15:52

could remember. All that came to

15:54

him were the first and last names, in

15:56

no particular order, of every kid in his

15:58

homeroom. Embark Tracy

16:01

Mason. Derek. One: Billie

16:03

Flanagan. Don't Little Josh

16:06

Stokowski Look man Dell

16:08

Rafi Monto Danielle Blood.

16:12

And sometimes along with the names,

16:14

the faces would materialize like mugshots.

16:17

You post. A. Pair of lips

16:20

shining what I. Try.

16:22

Not to internalize, Dorothy whispered to

16:24

him, taking his hand as they

16:26

waited in the dark hallway outside

16:28

the Nutcracker Additions. Practice.

16:30

Wearing a neutral expression. They.

16:33

Stood in silence for a while trying to

16:35

hear what was going on behind closed doors.

16:38

When. Their daughter finally exited. Looking.

16:40

A little days. The. Gently shepherded her

16:42

to the car. Did she

16:44

want lunch? Starbucks. If

16:47

it's okay I think I just i to

16:49

go home and watch you tube. She sat

16:52

quietly. From. The

16:54

depths of the sofa, a now familiar voice

16:56

bubbled. Hi guys I back and

16:58

I'm so excited because today I'm going to

17:00

be talking about ruined the court and as

17:03

you guys know I love being creative when

17:05

it comes to doing d I y de

17:07

car. But today is extra special because I'm

17:09

going to be showing you my mini home

17:12

goods Hall! I got so many amazing things

17:14

but I think the thing that I love

17:16

the most is this incredibly fluffy pillow. As

17:19

you can see, it's huge and I'm

17:21

pretty sure it's real sheepskin. Yeah, it

17:23

says here one hundred percent while from

17:25

New Zealand. but don't worry, no sheep

17:28

were killed or anything. I don't

17:30

think so right? He'll just go back. But.

17:32

The best part is how good it

17:34

goes with his other decorative pillows. I

17:36

got home goods. That place is so

17:38

amazing! Their selection is always changing. I

17:40

went in thinking I need a picture

17:42

frames and a dog bed but then

17:44

I turned down this one. I'll and

17:47

I saw the pillows and I went

17:49

crazy. By.

17:51

Nightfall his daughter seem to have

17:53

revived. She. practiced her jazz turns

17:55

on the slick floor of the kitchen she

17:57

winked and dimpled and her reflection in

17:59

the sliding doors, as if

18:01

for an audience stretching into the darkened backyard.

18:04

The dad, rinsing dishes in the sink, had

18:06

to keep dodging her left foot, which she

18:09

kicked, without warning, high into the air. She

18:12

always kicked on that side. It was naturally

18:14

the more flexible of the two. To

18:16

the dad, it would have made more sense to practice

18:18

kicking on the less stretchy side. I

18:21

am the best, she sang tenuously. The

18:23

best, the best, the best. You can't

18:25

beat me, no you can't. Don't even

18:27

try, because I'm the best. The

18:30

song sounded as if it had been made up on the

18:32

spot. Later that

18:34

week, the physical therapist came into the waiting room

18:36

while his daughter was still whirring away on the

18:38

bicycle. For a moment, he thought,

18:40

she was there to grab a magazine. But

18:43

then she perched on the chair beside him and

18:45

started speaking. I'm wondering, she

18:47

said, wearing her small, formal smile,

18:50

if Ivy has been keeping up with her

18:52

exercises at home. His chest

18:54

began to tingle, the Ivy

18:56

Vice squeezing. She wasn't

18:58

improving. She wasn't going to get a decent

19:00

part in the nutcracker. She'd have to

19:02

spend a second year in the Angel Corps, shuffling

19:05

across the stage in the snowflake

19:07

scene while holding a battery-operated candle

19:09

from Home Depot. He

19:11

felt totally defeated. I think she has,

19:14

he said. I've been telling her to. Then

19:17

he admitted, but I really don't know. To

19:20

his shame, he heard himself adding somewhat

19:22

sulkily. Maybe you should ask her. After

19:26

not a great day at school, his daughter buried

19:28

her chin and mouth into the folds of her

19:30

scarf and stared, unseeing at the road, not

19:33

bothering to change the radio station. The

19:36

lecture coverage continued, untracked in the background.

19:39

Beyond the windshield, a vapor trail bisected the

19:41

blue sky. Closer to

19:43

the ground, block after block of

19:46

residential development streamed past. As

19:49

they merged onto the highway, she asked, Do

19:51

you think I cried too much? She

19:54

sat with the question for a handful of seconds and

19:57

then inquired evenly. Who told you

19:59

that? Once you didn't answer,

20:01

he asked, a little less evenly,

20:04

who said that bullshit to you? Also,

20:07

when did it become a crime to feel

20:09

things? She

20:12

retreated deeper into her scarf. Oh, God, Dad,

20:14

forget I asked. It doesn't matter. And

20:17

he glanced down at the insulated cup, resting

20:19

in the holder between them. That

20:21

fucking coffee. He'd been suckered

20:24

by the promised ease of drive-through, and ended

20:26

up arriving ten minutes late for pickup. Only

20:29

ten minutes, not even a quarter of

20:31

an hour, but long enough for someone to have said

20:33

something awful to her. If that,

20:36

indeed, was what had happened. Who

20:38

knew what really went on in the

20:40

cluster of low-slung buildings that she disappeared

20:42

into and emerged from every day? He

20:46

had the urge to carry her far away from

20:48

them, as far as possible. The

20:50

value of peer interaction was definitely

20:53

overstated. He could fill the

20:55

tank, surprise Dorothy at work, load

20:57

the trunk with nonperishable groceries and

21:00

supplies, and then it'd be just

21:02

the three of them, the open road.

21:05

Not like free spirits, exactly, more like refugees

21:07

from the zombie apocalypse, but still, they'd

21:09

be together. Plus Bob. He'd

21:12

almost forgotten the dog. New

21:14

post. A cupcake, frosted

21:16

to look like the face of a cute pig. In

21:20

late October, unexpectedly, a stretch of

21:22

sunshine. First off,

21:25

she'd been cast as a dragon-dancer in the

21:27

Chinese tea scene, and even though only

21:30

the lower half of her would be visible, she was

21:32

coming home from the rehearsals in high spirits,

21:35

which she attributed to teamwork, telling him, you

21:37

see, it is like playing a sport.

21:40

And then, in the space of a

21:43

few days, an evite to a disco-themed

21:45

murder mystery party. An

21:47

afternoon working with her partner on a

21:49

social studies project that turned into

21:51

a movie night and a sleepover. A

21:54

plan to go with three girls from her Girl

21:56

Scout troop to the outlet mall. The

21:59

dad stood. on the front walkway and

22:01

watched her slide into the backseat of the

22:03

troop mother's minivan. As it

22:05

pulled away from the curb, he waved

22:07

to the shadowy parent behind the wheel. Their

22:10

neighbor, Marcia, happened to be dragging

22:12

in her trash cans. He waved at her,

22:14

too. I can't believe how

22:16

big she's getting, Marcia called. Tell me about it,

22:18

he said. Always running

22:20

off somewhere. I can't keep up. He

22:23

knew he sounded like an ass, but he

22:25

couldn't help it. He floated up

22:27

the walkway and in through the front door,

22:30

and finding Dorothy upstairs shaking out the bed

22:32

covers, he hugged her from behind and made

22:34

her topple over. On

22:38

Tuesday, the physical therapist greeted them as usual.

22:40

High ivy, she said, through her little smile,

22:43

as if he were merely the hulking,

22:45

nameless attendant who traveled alongside the patient.

22:48

But today it didn't bother him, because right away

22:50

he saw that she had done her duty and

22:52

voted. He pointed

22:54

to the oblong sticker on the breast

22:57

pocket of her gray, grown-up-looking blouse, and

22:59

then pointed to the same sticker attached to his

23:02

own chest. Earlier, he had

23:04

debated whether he should wait until after school

23:06

and take his daughter with him. It'd be

23:08

something that she could tell her daughter about had

23:10

been his thinking. But then

23:12

he remembered that she had therapy, and during

23:14

his lunch hour went ahead, on his own,

23:17

to the polling station, which was in

23:19

the cavernous basement of an Armenian church. After

23:23

pointing to their matching stickers, he gave

23:25

the physical therapist a grin and a

23:27

thumbs-up. Uncharacteristically, she

23:29

returned the gesture with open

23:32

enthusiasm. Oh-ho! Maybe

23:34

he'd stumbled upon the best way to communicate with

23:36

her, through hand signal. He

23:40

swelled suddenly with positive feelings for her, this

23:42

competent young woman who was helping his

23:45

daughter, those nice Armenian congregants who volunteered

23:47

for long shifts at the polls, the

23:50

sensible, civic-minded men and women who patiently

23:52

waited with him, giving up their

23:55

lunch hours as he had. He

23:57

felt good about them. He felt

23:59

good about humanity. in general. Basic

24:01

decency would prevail, and this exhausting,

24:03

insane election season would soon be

24:06

over, and by tomorrow he

24:08

could commit his energies fully to planning

24:10

the Thanksgiving menu and making sure that

24:12

his daughter did her fire hydrants every

24:14

night and got better. We

24:17

purged. The black square. Not

24:19

a photo of a black square, but a photo

24:22

of total blackness, as if the

24:24

camera had misfired or the film had

24:26

been accidentally exposed. The

24:29

whole family had a hard time getting up the next

24:31

morning. The dad felt as if he had been run

24:33

over by a truck, the big, shiny pickup truck, that

24:36

had come swerving out of the darkness and mowed

24:38

him down, and now had backed up and was

24:41

waiting for him, its engine revving. His

24:43

daughter crouched by his pillow and asked, as

24:45

she often did, to have

24:47

to go to school today. Her eyes

24:50

had turned narrow from crying, then sleeping. Her

24:52

nightshirt had a silvery unicorn on it.

24:56

They had let her stay up to watch the results with them,

24:58

but even in the dim light she looked haggard.

25:00

No, he said, placing the pillow over

25:03

his head, go back to sleep. It

25:05

was what he intended to do. He

25:07

had a very small window in which

25:09

he could slip back into unconsciousness and then wake

25:11

up in a world where the election hadn't happened.

25:14

He tried the trick he developed after

25:17

the first of several basketball injuries, the

25:19

trick where he would slow his breathing and

25:22

lie perfectly still, and

25:24

the throbbing in his ankle would cease, and

25:27

he could fool himself into believing that he

25:29

was strong and well before

25:31

finally relaxing into sleep. He

25:33

imagined himself in his old bedroom, on his

25:36

narrow bed, wearing nothing but his

25:38

sultic shorts. He repeated to himself,

25:41

fit as a fiddle, fit as a fiddle. But

25:44

he was agonizingly awake. Dorothy's

25:46

body heat beside him was throwing him off. He

25:49

pushed away the pillow inside and

25:51

was startled to see his daughter standing in

25:54

the doorway, fully dressed, with her backpack on.

25:56

What are you doing? he groaned. Why aren't

25:58

you in bed? She took a

26:01

nervous step backward. Daddy, she said,

26:03

I thought you were joking. Life

26:07

was a subject on which his daughter

26:09

collected inspirational quotes, her favorite. Life

26:12

always offers you a second chance.

26:14

It's called tomorrow. Served

26:17

as the bio on her Instagram profile. If

26:20

asked to describe herself, she

26:22

invariably said either fantabulous or

26:24

optimistic. Among

26:27

the many items on the third draft of

26:29

a Christmas list was something called a happiness

26:31

planner, a daily journal designed,

26:33

she explained, to create positive

26:35

thinking and personal growth. Christmas

26:38

was well over a month away, though

26:40

nearly all the houses on the block already had

26:42

their lights up. On

26:44

a cold morning, the dad sank into the driver's

26:46

seat, and in a fog he backed the car

26:49

down the driveway and into the

26:51

street before he became aware of a painted wooden

26:53

sign on top of the dashboard. It

26:56

was long and thin, with a black

26:58

background and italicized gold lettering. The

27:01

paint had been deliberately rubbed away from the

27:03

sign's edges to make it look like an

27:06

heirloom that had once hung in an ancestor's

27:08

homestead. Usually the

27:10

sign hung on the wall above his daughter's

27:12

bed, for the most part unnoticed by him.

27:15

But now, looking at it closely,

27:17

he saw that its syntax was slightly

27:19

garbled. It read, Life

27:22

is always offered a second chance. It's

27:24

called tomorrow. Not as

27:26

bad as what he'd seen in some instruction

27:28

manuals, but still off, and annoyingly

27:30

so, considering that the words were the whole

27:32

point. He flipped

27:35

over the sign to confirm his suspicions

27:37

about where it had been manufactured. Proudly

27:39

made in Michigan, USA, the sticker said.

27:42

He didn't know why he bothered feeling surprised anymore.

27:45

He tossed the sign into the back seat,

27:47

face down. It

27:49

struck him as darkly symbolic, as so many

27:51

things did these days. From personal

27:53

life marching on, taking

27:56

for itself all the tomorrows he had squandered.

28:00

him started on Michigan. How

28:02

did the unintelligible thing even end up on

28:04

his dashboard? He'd have to remind

28:06

Ivy to take it up to her room, or

28:09

else it would remain in the back of his car for months.

28:13

Do you realize how Snapchat works? Dorothy

28:16

asked him, her face lit up in the dark

28:18

by her laptop. That it just

28:20

disappears, the photos they send each other,

28:23

and that they can write captions on them. Then

28:26

it all goes poof. Like in five

28:28

seconds it's gone. So there's no way

28:30

of knowing what they're receiving or putting out there,

28:33

what images and messages they're being exposed

28:35

to. There's no way to monitor

28:37

any of it because it vanishes. She

28:40

clicked on her trackpad. Hey, do you

28:42

know about this? He rolled toward

28:44

her and grunted. Uh-huh. With

28:47

his mouth guardian, he wasn't easy to

28:49

enunciate. She reached over to

28:51

the nightstand and then dropped the neoprene eye mask

28:54

onto his face, saying, I think I'm going

28:56

to be up for a little while. He

28:59

heaved himself back onto his more comfortable

29:01

side, the side with the good shoulder,

29:04

and pulled the mask down over his eyes. Everything

29:07

disappeared. There was something

29:09

about being suddenly swaddled in darkness that

29:11

made each of her clicks seem slightly

29:13

louder than the one before, as

29:15

if the source of the sound were coming

29:18

very slowly, closer. The

29:22

next morning Dorothy returned from her run, bearing a stack of newspapers

29:24

in her arms, somewhat tentatively, like she was carrying someone else's baby.

29:26

She dropped it heavily onto

29:30

the island. Since when do we subscribe to the Guardian, she

29:33

asked, and the New York Times? The

29:37

dad looked up from his phone in confusion. He did recall

29:39

making a few late-night donations to the NRDC and the Southern Poverty Law

29:41

Center, but he'd forgotten all about the newspapers. You

29:46

know, there's this thing called a digital

29:48

subscription, she remarked, as she opened the refrigerator. He moved

29:50

out of her way. That's what I did with the

29:53

Washington Post, he said, remembering now, because

29:55

they don't deliver outside the DC area. In

30:01

a week this place is going to look

30:03

like a hoarder's house," Dorothy predicted. Piles

30:05

of newspaper everywhere. "'I

30:08

just think it's important to model,' the dad

30:10

said, looking meaningfully in the direction of the

30:12

sofa. "'Model where we get our information from.'

30:15

He half expected his daughter's head to pop

30:17

up like a groundhog's at the mention of

30:19

model. Kendall Jenner. Gigi

30:22

Hadid. "'No, not that kind

30:24

of model,' he heard himself saying wearily over

30:26

a laugh track. Dorothy

30:29

handed him a glass of juice. "'Stop looking so

30:31

pious,' she said. "'I agree with you.'" New

30:35

Post A hand holding a

30:37

clear plastic Starbucks cup, filled with a

30:39

liquid the color of Pepto-Bismol. In

30:42

it floated small chunks of something red.

30:45

"'Do you think this was full of caffeine?'

30:47

Dorothy asked, her screen tilted in his direction.

30:50

Though they'd made a reservation, their table wasn't ready.

30:53

They stood wedged into the little area by

30:55

the door where umbrellas would have gone, if

30:58

it had been raining. Who

31:00

knows what they actually put in their drinks? The

31:02

door opened, the air was cold, and they

31:04

squeezed closer together to let the new arrivals

31:07

through. "'Well, she

31:09

gets points for consistency. I'll give her that,'

31:11

Dorothy murmured, as she continued

31:13

thumbing her phone. She's

31:15

really thinking about her palette. "'Her

31:18

palette?' That was how he

31:20

heard it, palette like where Joan of Arc would have

31:22

slept. On her Instagram it's pink.

31:25

Her palette is a mix of light pink and

31:27

hot pink." He still didn't understand

31:29

what she was talking about. "'With the

31:31

occasional salmon accent thrown in,' he

31:34

blinked angrily. Dorothy had

31:36

downloaded the app only a week ago. "'What

31:38

about the picture of Michelle Obama?' he asked.

31:40

She's not pink. Her

31:42

dresses,' his wife smiled at him. At

31:46

this point the hostess looked up from her station

31:48

and signaled for them to approach. The

31:51

noise of the restaurant rose up around them, and

31:53

for a moment he felt enfolded by the warm

31:55

lighting and the voices and the smell

31:57

of food being thoughtfully prepared, but none

31:59

of it gave him any sense of comfort." any pleasure. As

32:01

soon as they were seated, he ordered

32:03

wine for both of them, and in

32:05

a little bout of resentment told Dorothy

32:08

that a pink palette struck him as

32:10

depressingly cliched. Ivy

32:12

was just imitating what she saw

32:14

other girls doing online, carefully styled

32:16

shots of donuts and videos of

32:18

dissolving bath bombs. Groupthink,

32:20

he said. She kept talking

32:22

about her personal style and her vibe

32:25

and her aesthetic, but nothing

32:27

about it was actually hers. The

32:29

photo of her hand holding the pink drink

32:31

from Starbucks? He'd seen

32:34

practically the same image posted a hundred times

32:36

before. His wife

32:38

reached out and touched the arm of the passing server. Can

32:41

we get a new fork, please? Accidentally, he

32:43

had knocked his off the table. I

32:47

know you don't like it when I talk about YouTubers,

32:49

but can I tell you just this one thing? What

32:52

makes Ashley Janine different from a lot

32:54

of other YouTubers is that she's really

32:56

honest with her fans. She'll

32:59

come right out and say who's sponsoring her.

33:01

She doesn't try to hide it or make

33:03

it seem like it's just a coincidence that

33:05

she uses Simple and Clinique. She'll

33:07

say, I'm so excited to be working with

33:09

these brands. And also, she's

33:11

grateful. She says all the

33:14

time how blessed she is because she knows

33:16

it's not usual for a 23-year-old to be

33:18

buying her first house and have

33:20

it be so big. She's buying a

33:22

house with a pool. Wow,

33:24

he says, her own pool. She's already moved

33:27

in. Tomorrow she's going to Lowe's to buy

33:29

houseplants. What's simple? He knew

33:31

what Clinique was. It's a

33:33

makeup remover, like cleansing facial wipes. They

33:36

don't use artificial perfumes or harsh chemicals,

33:38

so it won't upset your skin. She

33:41

bought a house by using cleansing wipes. She

33:43

has a lot of other sponsors, not just Simple. Plus,

33:46

she's writing a YA novel, so she gets money

33:48

from that too. He didn't

33:50

know how to continue the conversation. Accelerating, he

33:53

made it through a yellow light. Dad,

33:56

his daughter said, after a minute or two,

33:58

when Ashley's book comes out, Can I get it?

34:01

He must have looked ill-disposed, or maybe he

34:03

just looked ill, because then

34:05

she said jovially, come on, it's

34:07

reading. But could it

34:10

really be called reading? Did it actually count

34:12

as a book? Or was

34:14

it just something amazing? Something

34:17

to be so excited about, to

34:19

be so grateful for? I

34:21

hope you guys enjoyed it. I had so much

34:23

fun doing it, and if you want me to

34:25

do more things like this, make sure to give

34:28

it a big thumbs up and comment down below.

34:30

And don't forget to subscribe to my vlog channel,

34:32

which just got, I can't believe it, 2 million

34:35

subscribers, because there you can see

34:38

all the behind the scenes. So

34:40

yeah, thank you for watching, and

34:43

I love you guys so, so, so

34:45

much. In fact, would

34:48

it be going too far to call it

34:50

tremendous? Something incredible, a

34:52

massive story, and very complex, made

34:54

by some really incredible people of

34:57

such incredible talent. It'll be a

34:59

big win. There's no question about

35:02

it, and I can tell you

35:04

why. Because, number one, the enthusiasm.

35:07

The enthusiasm for this, it is

35:09

really tremendous. Right before

35:11

the impact, he heard his daughter gasp. And

35:14

in the silence afterward, he felt her

35:17

chest rising and falling rapidly against his

35:19

outstretched arm. New

35:22

post. A bared collarbone

35:24

with a seat belt burn running diagonally

35:26

across it. The welt shiny

35:28

with ointment and pink. During

35:33

the intermission of the nutcracker, he was startled

35:35

to see the physical therapist standing in line

35:37

for the ladies room. She was holding a

35:39

potted orchid from Trader Joe's and

35:42

wearing a velvet blazer. You came, he

35:44

said, a little too loudly. He

35:46

glanced around to see if maybe she had brought a date. She

35:49

asked him, is this Ivy's mom? And

35:51

he remembered to introduce Dorothy, who

35:53

promptly apologized for the length and

35:56

overall tedium of the production. But

35:58

I'm enjoying it, the therapist. as protested. She

36:02

complimented the girl who danced Arabian

36:04

coffee and also the Chinese dragon-dancers who

36:06

had succeeded, the dad admitted, in bringing

36:09

a sort of unruly street energy

36:11

to the show. Ivy

36:13

was wonderful, she said, and together he

36:15

and Dorothy smiled. Like you could

36:17

really tell, he said. She looked

36:19

at him seriously. I would know those

36:21

legs anywhere. Over-pronation of the feet?

36:24

Well-developed gastrocnemius? She was third from

36:26

the back. The confidence

36:28

with which she said it moved

36:31

him unexpectedly. He wished he

36:33

could say he knew anything that well. He

36:35

thought of all the time she had spent working with

36:37

his daughter deep in the forest of equipment, two

36:40

times a week for nearly three months. Not

36:43

only a licensed professional, but an expert in

36:45

her field. And here she

36:47

was, on her day off. It

36:49

was a therapist who was smiling now. Don't

36:52

look like that, Dave, she said. It's not

36:54

magic or anything. It's just my job. He

36:57

began smiling, too, to show that he,

36:59

of course, understood, but judging

37:01

from the expression on her face and on

37:03

Dorothy's, it was very possible that

37:05

his eyes were also leaking a little. The

37:08

likelihood made him smile even more, that

37:11

and the fact that, well, what do you know?

37:14

She did remember his name, after all. A

37:17

week after the performance he came home late from work,

37:20

and when he pulled the rental car into the driveway

37:22

he saw his daughter sitting at the dining room table.

37:25

She was framed photogenically by

37:28

the room's picture window. For a moment he

37:31

felt the vice in his chest tightening. Why

37:33

was she alone on a Friday night? Why

37:35

hadn't Dorothy set up a sleepover for her? Why

37:38

hadn't anyone invited her to their house? But

37:41

as he climbed out of the car

37:43

he saw that she appeared unperturbed and,

37:46

in fact, rather happy or at least

37:48

happily occupied. She had

37:50

her earbuds in and was making Christmas cards,

37:52

and the supplies spread out in a glittering

37:54

swathe across the table. When

37:56

she spotted him outside, she immediately yanked

37:58

out her earbuds. pushed back

38:01

her chair, and hurled herself against the

38:03

picture window, landing with a

38:05

soft thud. Her cheek

38:07

lay smushed against the glass, her arms

38:09

were splayed, and while she still needed

38:11

one leg to stand on, she'd lifted

38:13

the other and pressed its bent shape

38:15

to the window. What in the

38:17

world? He had no idea

38:20

what she was expressing or rehearsing, but

38:22

the gesture was undoubtedly directed

38:24

at him. What

38:26

in the darkness he gave her a thumbs up, but

38:29

her eyes were limply shut, not

38:31

a muscle moved. It was all very

38:34

realistic. Was he witnessing

38:36

the magic of dance, of? What

38:38

was it called when she was little,

38:41

creative movement? Somehow

38:43

she had managed to convey through her

38:45

body precisely what he'd been feeling since

38:47

November, not crushed, not

38:49

flattened, but flung, as

38:52

if from an obliterating blast against

38:54

the hard, exposing surface, spread,

38:58

embarrassed, suspended, without the strength to

39:00

open his eyes and survey the

39:02

damage. He put down

39:04

his computer bag and drew closer to the window.

39:07

He tapped lightly on the pane, but

39:09

she didn't flinch. Pressing his

39:11

palm to hers, he wondered if she could

39:13

feel his outline through the glass. He

39:16

tried it with his other palm and then his cheek.

39:19

He raised and crooked his knee to match the

39:21

angle of her leg. In

39:24

sixth grade theater class, he'd had to do

39:26

mirror games, but actually this

39:28

was easier because now he got to

39:30

choose his partner. What

39:33

was hard was balancing on one foot. When

39:36

he started to wobble, her silent

39:38

laughter made the whole window shake.

39:44

I'm David Ramnik, host of The New Yorker Radio

39:46

Hour. can't

40:00

find anywhere else. So

40:02

please join me every week for the New Yorker Radio

40:04

Hour, wherever you listen to podcasts.

40:30

With access to so much information, it's hard to

40:32

feel like an informed, discerning citizen. That's

40:50

why on Make Me Smart, which is a

40:53

podcast from Marketplace, we make it easy for

40:55

you to stay in the know. Hi, I'm

40:57

Kai Rizdahl. Every weekday, Kimberly Adams and I

40:59

unpack the latest from Washington, D.C. The

41:02

Senate Minority Leader has announced that he

41:04

will step down as a Republican leader.

41:07

What's happening in AI? I mean,

41:10

don't buy at the top, but holy

41:12

cow, artificial intelligence and all the companies

41:14

related to it are the hot new

41:16

thing. And we do the numbers. So

41:19

as a refresher, inflation is

41:22

the rate of increase in the

41:24

prices of things, not just sort of

41:26

things getting more expensive at the speed at which

41:29

things get more expensive. Because

41:31

in a world that's constantly changing, we all

41:33

need to stay smart. Listen to

41:35

Make Me Smart wherever you get your podcasts. David,

41:49

I feel so in a way this is almost

41:51

a mystery story. as

42:01

both the father and

42:03

the reader try to understand whether

42:05

what this girl is going through is a

42:09

so-called normal tween experience or whether

42:11

there's something more serious or

42:14

complicated happening with her. Right. Do

42:16

you have an idea about the answer to that question? Well,

42:20

you know, having read it multiple times now, I

42:22

think what's interesting about it is to

42:25

that question specifically this idea of normal,

42:28

why the father is so concerned

42:30

about his daughter, why is he

42:34

so involved,

42:36

why is it so all-consuming

42:39

for him at this moment

42:41

in time, what is it

42:43

that gives him reason to fear that

42:45

there's anything really terrible happening? To

42:49

me it feels more like if it's

42:51

a mystery, part

42:54

of it is like, what is wrong

42:56

with him more than what's wrong with her? And

42:59

in a way maybe even like what is wrong

43:02

with contemporary parenting than with

43:04

this girl. There

43:06

are two parents in this story. One

43:09

of them is much more anxious than the

43:11

other. And

43:14

maybe in Sarah's

43:18

choice of choosing

43:20

to tell it from the dad's

43:22

perspective, it's the

43:24

person who's most removed from not

43:28

just the experience of being a tween,

43:31

but also of being a tween girl. I mean, he

43:33

must have, he knew some, but he was never one

43:35

of them. And

43:37

I wonder if the reason that Dorothy

43:40

isn't as freaked out as the dad

43:42

whose name we ultimately learn is

43:46

in part because she was once a girl. Right,

43:48

and also they talk more. It

43:50

seems as though what's happened is

43:52

fairly common, which is this girl has

43:54

hit the age where she shuts

43:57

down on her parents, or maybe

43:59

just on her father. You know, where he

44:02

had a little girl who probably talked to him all

44:04

the time and now she's not talking. And

44:07

that could be devastating for a parent. Yes,

44:11

and I guess we catch him in

44:13

a moment where he, you

44:15

know, he talks about clues. He's

44:18

looking for clues, and he's looking for clues

44:20

in particularly, you know, from

44:23

her Instagram feed. So,

44:26

yeah, it sounds like, you know, something

44:28

had changed. There was,

44:30

you know, a previous Ivy and then

44:32

a new Ivy, and he's trying to

44:34

understand. Yeah.

44:37

The irony of it is trying

44:40

to understand through Instagram. You

44:42

know, what he's looking at is what she's choosing

44:46

to present as her public

44:48

persona, perhaps kind of

44:50

aspirational. I mean, how much

44:52

do you think he can find her real self

44:54

there? And yet we

44:57

do it all the time. In

44:59

a way, maybe because it's the public

45:01

persona that she transmits to the

45:03

world that is not meant to be

45:05

her parents. She doesn't think

45:07

about her parents looking at these things.

45:09

She's thinking about her peers, the people

45:11

that she wants to get likes from.

45:15

So I guess he feels like, you

45:17

know, he can't go into the low-slung buildings

45:20

and follow her into school, but

45:22

maybe this is the closest he can get to

45:24

that aspect of tween

45:26

experience. It's a curated thing

45:29

that she's putting out there. And ultimately, you

45:31

know, he gets frustrated. On the

45:33

one hand, he wants her to be normal, but he also doesn't want her

45:35

to be cliché, which

45:38

is interesting. Right. Right. I

45:42

was reading an interview with Bynum about

45:45

this story where she said, these photographs

45:47

offer a window into the daughter's inner

45:49

world that I think is much

45:51

more wild and tangled and rich than

45:54

the medium or the format of Instagram

45:56

itself might suggest. That

45:58

made me sort of frustrated. stop and think because

46:01

I hit, you know, everything's pink and

46:03

moved on in a way. But

46:06

what wildness do you think you see in

46:08

these photographs that she's put up? I

46:11

don't. I don't.

46:14

You know, I hate to dispute

46:17

the author, but I don't until the

46:22

seatbelt one, which is something

46:25

that feels wilder. But

46:27

I also think maybe she does it because something

46:30

has changed in her

46:32

post-election. Right. We

46:37

get the black, the

46:40

all black post and then

46:42

she's back to pink, but it's a pink wound. It's

46:45

a pink wound. And she's also,

46:47

you know, the one image that isn't, you

46:50

know, on Instagram, but it's in his car,

46:52

the thing that she used to have above

46:54

her bed, that she, you know, that he

46:56

doesn't understand how it got in the car,

46:58

but we do. Well, let's talk

47:00

about that. What do you assume she put it there,

47:02

yeah? Yeah. Yeah.

47:05

She doesn't feel like it's a dark moment where

47:07

it doesn't feel like life is offering you a

47:09

second chance called tomorrow because she woke up tomorrow

47:11

and tomorrow is not good. What

47:14

do you think is going

47:16

on in her mind that makes her

47:18

stick that sign on her father's dashboard?

47:20

I mean, obviously she's trying to make a point to him.

47:23

It doesn't occur to him that that's what she's doing. It

47:26

didn't occur to me either. It was funny because I

47:28

thought that I liked

47:30

your reading of it better. I thought she was just trying to get

47:32

rid of it, but maybe your

47:34

reading is the better one, but it's the more

47:36

hopeful one that she's actually reassuring

47:39

him. Or accusing. I mean,

47:41

who knows? Who knows? You know, it could go either

47:44

way. I just think if she wanted to get rid

47:46

of it, she would have put it in the garbage

47:48

can or something. It seems so

47:50

personalized to put it on her father's

47:52

dashboard. But she's also unaware

47:56

of the garbled syntax. It

48:00

has, if that's what she meant to do, it definitely

48:02

doesn't have that effect. It has

48:04

the opposite effect. It just

48:06

reinforces his despair. Yeah,

48:09

and reminds him of Michigan. And reminds

48:11

him of Michigan. I

48:15

want to go back to something you brought up earlier,

48:17

the fact that Dorothy and Ivy

48:19

have names from almost

48:22

the beginning of the story, but the

48:24

father, his name doesn't come up

48:26

until very close to the end. And even

48:28

then he's prized that someone has used it,

48:30

that the physical therapist remembers it. And I

48:33

wonder why you think that is, why he

48:35

goes nameless for so long. There

48:37

are two characters in the story that don't have

48:40

names, him and the person

48:42

who wins the election. But the physical therapist

48:44

is also never named. In

48:46

thinking about the story,

48:49

it's the dad who we

48:51

later learn is named Dave. He's

48:54

like the only man in the story, and it's

48:56

a story otherwise populated by women. And I wanted

48:58

to have this great theory where the man is

49:00

not named, but all the women

49:03

are. Well, there's also Bob, who's the dog.

49:05

I assume Bob is the male dog. It's

49:08

because he doesn't have

49:11

individuality for

49:14

most of the story. And

49:16

I think there's this moment where,

49:19

I mean, until then, and there's

49:22

something going on between him and his

49:24

physical therapist, which is quite tame,

49:27

but slightly more than just tame.

49:30

What do you mean? I think he's competitive

49:32

with a physical therapist. Well,

49:34

I also think he's uncomfortable around her

49:36

in some way, but also

49:39

because I think he's attracted to her. I

49:42

think that moment where he notes

49:45

that you bring a boyfriend, is there somebody with

49:48

her? It's the

49:50

only relationship

49:52

in the story where

49:56

he's nervous in a

49:58

way that has a relationship. has to

50:00

do with himself, like

50:02

his individual personal

50:05

self. He wants to, I

50:07

don't know, impress her in some way. I

50:12

think in all the other ways, he's so neuter,

50:15

right? Like even with his wife, he's so neuter.

50:18

Yeah. So for that one moment

50:20

when he has so

50:22

much sort of affection in him to give,

50:25

so he gives her a hug and like knocks her

50:27

over onto the bed. Right.

50:30

Right, but he could have involved the dog the way he does

50:32

it. You know what I mean? Exactly. It's

50:35

like, how do these people even

50:37

copulate to have a child? Like there's

50:40

something that happened to Dave. You

50:43

know, there's, we know we have an account of

50:45

him when he's

50:48

a teenager, you

50:50

know, playing basketball and there's something very physical

50:53

going on with him. Like he plays

50:55

basketball, he gets hurt. And

50:57

then most

50:59

of his existence is channeled into worrying

51:02

about his daughter, some part

51:04

of it worrying about the election.

51:07

But as for like him having

51:09

any desire or aspirations

51:11

or anything that is personal in a way, we don't even,

51:13

like he goes to work. We don't know what his job

51:15

is. We don't know what Dorothy's job is either. Yeah.

51:19

I mean, I wondered if he's called the father

51:21

for so long just because that's all he is

51:23

and that's all we're going to get

51:25

of him is him as a father. And

51:27

that's why I think when the

51:30

therapist says she remembered his name,

51:33

that's why it's such a thrill to him because

51:36

she saw him, you

51:39

know, even in this kind

51:41

of trivial way as

51:43

more than just the

51:46

hulking attendant to the patient, right?

51:48

Like she saw Dave as a man. I

51:50

don't know. As a person. Yeah, as a

51:52

person. A person with a name. And that

51:55

kind of affirms him. Like,

51:57

I don't know how Dave got to be so

51:59

far gone. that this

52:01

is what he needs. But I think that's

52:03

what happens. Like for so much of the story, he

52:06

is just the dad and all his energy

52:10

is channeled into mostly his daughter.

52:13

Yeah. And yet it's not a typical

52:17

generation gap story. It's

52:19

not about there

52:21

being friction caused by a parent being

52:23

unable to understand the experience of a child.

52:25

You know, it's what seems

52:27

most sort of salient

52:30

to me here is the

52:32

intensity of his desire to understand. You

52:35

know, they're not, he's not yelling at her. You need to

52:37

be acting in this way and

52:39

not that way. He's actually,

52:41

he's doing the opposite. He's saying, you

52:44

can say whatever you want and I'll

52:46

be completely silent and expressionless, you know,

52:49

this enormous well of feeling

52:51

for her and then

52:53

no way to express it. No

52:56

way to express it that he's good at

52:58

or that they can find. But I think

53:00

that's probably true of contemporary

53:03

parenting, including for fathers,

53:06

where I think the stereotype

53:08

before was of being sort

53:10

of a distant, absent person. I mean,

53:13

yeah, I have three daughters and I have

53:16

friends who are fathers and they're very involved in

53:19

their children's lives. You know, the

53:21

dangerous pendulum swinging too much in

53:23

the other extreme where you

53:26

become too involved and you lose a

53:28

sense of yourself. So

53:30

it's like finding the place where

53:33

you can show love, but also,

53:35

you know, leave your children

53:37

the space to be who they need to be. Yeah,

53:41

I think you're more sympathetic to Dave than I am.

53:44

I feel like Dave has done some of this to

53:46

himself, not to be too hard on

53:48

him, but it's like back to sort of

53:52

this question I pose about him is like, how did

53:54

you let this happen to yourself? Like

53:58

you weren't this way your whole But I

54:00

guess it is one of the bizarre

54:03

paradoxes of becoming

54:06

a parent, where you

54:09

know, you had been your own

54:11

person for so long, and then you have

54:13

children, and the idea

54:15

is that they're supposed to learn

54:18

from you, and you're supposed to be some kind

54:20

of model to use that word. They're

54:22

modeling behavior. But at the same

54:25

time, he's so wrapped up in

54:27

what's happening with her that I'm not sure

54:29

what he's modeling, you know? So

54:32

nobody listening to him, it's like, well,

54:34

I'm not sure what Dave has to

54:36

say that is worth listening to. Not

54:39

to be too hard on Dave, but I guess I am.

54:43

Yeah, you're kind of under the moon.

54:45

He makes some good choices, right? Like in that

54:47

moment when he says you can say whatever you

54:49

want, and I won't

54:52

comment on it, he gives her

54:54

a huge amount of freedom. Oh,

54:57

definitely. He's very attuned

54:59

to her mood, and

55:02

I think generally not

55:04

falsely so. He doesn't seem to

55:06

be imagining it. No,

55:09

no, I think he's incredibly well-meaning,

55:12

and really does want to understand her. We're

55:16

starting to get into some sort of like parenting

55:18

philosophy part of our conversation, but

55:21

it's like, yeah, well, what do children actually want?

55:23

What do they want from their parents? Love

55:28

the fact that their parents want to understand them,

55:32

but probably... So independence, yeah. Yeah,

55:35

but something else, like to understand, like

55:37

to see something of their parents that's

55:39

admirable when she

55:41

comes after the election and says,

55:43

you know, without going to school, and he's like,

55:45

just go back to bed. And then

55:47

she comes back and she thinks he's joking, and she

55:49

says, Daddy, oh, it's kind of heartbreaking when she calls

55:51

him Daddy because

55:54

he's the dad, but then she's like the little girl.

55:59

And He says, no. I meant it.

56:02

Like. It's that really the one

56:04

moment in the story where he's not catering to

56:06

her? Yeah, she's also

56:08

probably afraid, right? And and she wants

56:11

her world to be normal. And

56:14

this is so abnormal. As

56:17

the sort of the failure of the parental authority

56:19

right there is a moment in which is sort

56:21

of failing her there. Now.

56:25

It's so interesting to think about the story

56:27

because we're talking about it eight years later.

56:31

There's so much villages around

56:33

the election. For

56:36

years never given. The.

56:39

Name of the candidates has never given. An

56:42

pesticide year that like fifty years from

56:44

now. Or you need. Footnotes: Understand what's

56:46

going on here. I'm.

56:49

Right where we we. we get the father thing,

56:52

you know, or he has high hopes that basic

56:54

decency will prevail. Right

56:56

arm. Which is a

56:58

tip off for us right now. Maybe I hope

57:00

it still will be in the future. Yes,

57:04

of course it. It doesn't prevail.

57:06

Know he didn't it.

57:08

It certainly did not

57:10

feel like decency prevailed.

57:12

or. I think you

57:14

know maybe this is worth talking

57:17

about. Now you know why I'm.

57:20

A story is set at this particular

57:22

moment am and what is it back?

57:26

In. A joins. What's

57:29

happening with him and Ivy and

57:31

the election? Like the commonality between

57:33

these two. Thanks. Yeah, I

57:35

mean, it's entertaining. There's a. Kind

57:37

of continual sort of threat of

57:40

danger in the story. That.

57:42

Keeps almost happening and mean and then. Even.

57:45

The. Most dangerous moment? That car accident.

57:48

You know you get to that passage You

57:50

think oh my god, she's gonna die or

57:52

he didn't die or something and that's just

57:54

like I'm a seat belt burn on instagram.

57:58

and you never even know what happened His

58:00

attention was distracted from the road because

58:02

he's obsessing about a YouTuber in this,

58:05

you know, sarcastic way. A

58:08

YouTuber, but also somebody

58:10

else. Right? Right, yeah. He

58:14

goes from the jargon

58:16

of YouTube to the jargon of Trump.

58:18

Yep. Yeah. Yeah.

58:22

And then, of course, that is, in

58:25

the world of the story, the biggest disaster is

58:28

the election result. I

58:30

feel like the story ends on

58:33

a happy note. Yes. Surprisingly,

58:38

just with this strange moment of connection between them.

58:41

But what sets it off is

58:44

this bizarre image of this, you know, this

58:46

child throwing herself at the window

58:50

and, you know, hitting it in the position

58:52

of someone flung as if from an obliterating

58:54

blast against a hard, exposing surface that doesn't,

58:56

you know, this doesn't sound... lighthearted.

59:01

What do you think she's...what should we think

59:03

she's doing there? I

59:06

mean, there's, I think, a literal

59:08

thing that she's doing, which

59:11

alludes to, I would say, the

59:13

car accident, right? The thing

59:15

that we don't see, the windshield.

59:19

I guess she wasn't probably flattened against

59:21

the windshield because of the

59:23

seatbelt. But

59:25

I think she's alluding to that. And

59:28

then there's this other part

59:30

of it, which I guess is...for him, it's

59:33

the election. I don't know if she's alluding

59:35

to that. It's

59:37

at the level of storycraft. It's so

59:39

amazing. Because...and

59:42

it took me a while to absorb it.

59:46

Like, the story starts with Dave

59:48

looking at Instagram, which is just

59:51

images, you know, under glass.

59:55

And it ends with

59:57

her actually becoming... this

1:00:01

ephemeral Instagram

1:00:03

image just for him and

1:00:07

that he can participate in and he

1:00:10

gives her a thumbs up in the dark like it

1:00:12

is so it's so subtle right

1:00:15

but for those of us who know you

1:00:17

know which is I think everybody now like

1:00:20

how do you demonstrate that you like something

1:00:22

well yeah it's a thumbs up it's a

1:00:24

like so he

1:00:26

likes her image to

1:00:28

the point of what you're saying

1:00:30

Deborah about how the images become

1:00:32

wilder I think that's the wildest one

1:00:35

of them all and

1:00:37

that one is just for him and he

1:00:39

likes it he likes it so

1:00:41

much he you know communes

1:00:43

with it in his way I

1:00:46

have mixed responses to it because I

1:00:49

also the description of it makes me think of kind

1:00:51

of a chalk outline you know body has fallen that

1:00:55

kind of pose that you would see in a

1:00:57

death scene yes and

1:01:00

then he makes it alive again and

1:01:03

he's also balancing on one foot and she's

1:01:05

balancing on one foot and there's you know

1:01:08

all that stuff about you know his bad

1:01:10

leg and her bad leg yeah

1:01:12

it's just it it ties so much

1:01:15

together at the very end

1:01:17

and then she you know and then she laughs

1:01:19

I don't think she's really laughed with

1:01:22

him or for him yeah

1:01:26

up to this point and

1:01:28

it's so loving you know finally he

1:01:30

gets the Instagram image

1:01:33

that he wanted so I mean in that

1:01:35

sense it's yeah it's a very hopeful ending

1:01:38

and he also concedes that it's something

1:01:41

that probably could not

1:01:43

have been communicated any

1:01:45

other way and so

1:01:47

it's an image that

1:01:49

he interprets that

1:01:53

gives him a sense of connection

1:01:55

to her. Bynum

1:01:57

did a Q&A about the story. when

1:02:00

it came out and she

1:02:02

said, you know, I'll just read it to you. She

1:02:04

said, what takes the dad by surprise is

1:02:06

not his daughter's ups and downs, but the intensity

1:02:08

of his own feelings as he watches her go

1:02:10

through them. He thought he was

1:02:13

just tagging along for the ride and now finds

1:02:15

he can't get off the rollercoaster. He

1:02:17

knows that he should be down on the

1:02:19

ground waving and smiling in a stationary figure,

1:02:21

feet planted, but instead he's up

1:02:23

in the air right beside her clutching the lap bar

1:02:26

and screaming. And

1:02:28

my question is like, why?

1:02:32

You know, why is it so difficult? Why is

1:02:34

it so hard for him to create

1:02:38

the necessary objective distance in a way that

1:02:40

his wife can and he can't? I

1:02:42

guess that's part of the

1:02:45

experience of reading the story. It's like, or

1:02:48

for me, because I'm a father

1:02:50

and, you know, I think about how to parent

1:02:53

children, daughters in my case, and

1:02:56

do think about, you know, the

1:02:59

losing yourself or not losing

1:03:01

yourself and yeah, finding the

1:03:06

necessary or the best way to

1:03:08

relate to your own children and

1:03:11

what, you know, for lack

1:03:13

of a better word, what

1:03:16

image to present to them. Yeah,

1:03:19

yeah, he has no Instagram. Now.

1:03:24

Yeah, and he tries a few. He tries several

1:03:26

approaches. That's in that final one. It's the only one

1:03:28

that works. Yeah.

1:03:31

And I guess it's also, maybe

1:03:34

for him, it is kind of a regression

1:03:36

to his own 12 year

1:03:39

old self and in

1:03:41

that, you know, in

1:03:43

that flashback, what

1:03:45

he thinks of his childhood. I think it's sort of so

1:03:48

poignant that he looks at her and thinks

1:03:52

she was the kind of girl he would have been afraid

1:03:54

of back then

1:03:56

who would have intimidated him because she

1:03:58

still intimidates him. Yes. And

1:04:01

I think that I've thought that too in reading the story,

1:04:03

it's like how odd

1:04:06

it is that you

1:04:08

can be the

1:04:10

parent of someone who would

1:04:12

have intimidated you when you were, you know,

1:04:14

that age. But I created you, and maybe

1:04:16

that's part of Dave's problem, that he's

1:04:19

still, even though he says

1:04:21

he can't remember himself in

1:04:24

the sixth grade at 12, so

1:04:26

much of the story when he does reflect back is

1:04:28

about him being her age. Yeah, and

1:04:31

it's funny that what he remembers, you

1:04:33

know, he can't remember sixth grade, but he

1:04:35

remembers the faces of

1:04:38

all the kids in his grade, and they sort of

1:04:40

pop up like mugshots. I mean,

1:04:42

it sounds to me more like he's

1:04:44

remembering a yearbook or something, but that

1:04:47

was his Instagram. Right,

1:04:50

exactly. And all of their names, I

1:04:52

mean, just from a writing standpoint, it's

1:04:54

like I would want to ask, are

1:04:57

those actually the names of

1:04:59

the people in your

1:05:02

homeroom, or did you have to sit down and come

1:05:04

up with names, which I find always very, very

1:05:06

difficult to do? I

1:05:08

don't think we would have allowed her to use real

1:05:10

people. Oh, really? Okay. Yeah,

1:05:14

from a legal standpoint, what if she said this

1:05:16

kid was awful in sixth grade, and

1:05:18

then that person sued her? But

1:05:20

she doesn't say anything about them. They just, just their names

1:05:22

and their faces. So,

1:05:28

yeah, no, I think those were invented, invented Dave's classmates.

1:05:30

Oh, that's hard to do. We

1:05:34

didn't talk about the title at all. Should we talk about

1:05:36

the title? Yeah, let's talk about

1:05:38

the title. So, I mean,

1:05:41

there's the obvious reason that it's

1:05:43

called likes. Do

1:05:45

you think there are less obvious reasons? You

1:05:48

really get that, the core of

1:05:50

Dave's concern about language, and probably,

1:05:53

you know, the author's concern about

1:05:55

language, too, and the

1:05:57

extent to which it is.

1:06:01

enables something in

1:06:04

our lives and in the culture when

1:06:07

language gets transformed

1:06:09

this way. You know,

1:06:12

in the most. That kind of

1:06:14

in a...in an anxious way to

1:06:16

talk about it. Yeah. But

1:06:18

for Ivy, that is her language. That's

1:06:21

the language she's learned and knows, and

1:06:24

she wouldn't question it. Exactly. Yeah,

1:06:26

that's good. That's good that you say that, Deborah, because

1:06:28

I say the first part where it's like I sound

1:06:30

like old and boomerish, and then you say this part,

1:06:33

which is good. Yes.

1:06:35

Yeah. And it's not as

1:06:37

menacing to her. That's just a

1:06:39

fact of life, right? This is

1:06:41

what she...she's young enough, you know, for

1:06:45

there not to be really a pre-social media

1:06:47

time in her life. There's

1:06:50

a time when she probably didn't have it, but there

1:06:53

wasn't a time when it didn't exist. And

1:06:55

I think the

1:06:58

way that she knows that there's

1:07:00

anything even, you know, somewhat

1:07:03

pejorative associated with it is

1:07:06

her parents and

1:07:08

her dad. And she like, she tweaks

1:07:10

him. She plays with him about like, she's

1:07:12

writing a YA novel. Come on, dad. It's

1:07:14

reading. She

1:07:17

knows how he feels, but he seems ridiculous to

1:07:19

her in that way, I think, in the way

1:07:21

that all parents seem

1:07:24

ridiculous to their children when they feel kind

1:07:26

of outmoded. Yeah.

1:07:29

So for you and me, it's like I'm

1:07:32

sure, well, at least I have got to that

1:07:34

point where I'm like, yes, it's reading. It's reading. Read

1:07:36

it. Do it. Do it. Because at least you're

1:07:38

reading as

1:07:40

opposed to staring at your phone. So,

1:07:43

yes, I'm there. I'm there at

1:07:46

that moment. I got dragged along. I'm there too.

1:07:51

Yeah, she knows. She knows. They're

1:07:53

both right, which

1:07:56

is what's great about, you

1:07:59

know, good good art. They're both right. I

1:08:02

think he's right to be anxious and

1:08:04

she's also right to not

1:08:08

be paranoid and just

1:08:11

to live her life and

1:08:13

there's probably as he's trying to

1:08:15

reflect back on being you know

1:08:17

12 years old and is it

1:08:19

normal? Well yeah he can if he

1:08:22

could access that part of himself you

1:08:25

could take all the instagram out of it in

1:08:27

the snapchat because that's not really

1:08:29

what he's worried about. He's

1:08:31

worried about what it's like to be 12 and

1:08:33

that it hasn't changed quite so much if only

1:08:35

he could access it. The

1:08:37

nice thing is to be reminded that you know

1:08:40

even in your most

1:08:43

paranoid moments that there's

1:08:45

still more that is

1:08:48

similar than dissimilar about

1:08:52

being a child. Yeah yeah and

1:08:55

ultimately he's worried about her happiness you know

1:08:57

he's worried about about

1:08:59

what she's feeling. Yeah

1:09:04

and I guess parents have always worried about that.

1:09:06

I'm actually not 100 sure that parents have always

1:09:08

worried about it. I'm not

1:09:10

sure either. That's the

1:09:12

type of preoccupation that feels. You're supposed to

1:09:15

be feeling you're supposed to be doing your

1:09:17

homework. Yeah and and you as a parent

1:09:19

are supposed to be like you know off

1:09:21

you know smoking or something. The

1:09:25

cocktail party. Yeah but

1:09:27

he's concerned about you know the Dorothy side of

1:09:29

a play date but

1:09:31

it's so beautifully done because if

1:09:34

it's prismatic in that way you can you know you can

1:09:37

see it from all these sides and

1:09:39

it's funny. So many

1:09:41

instances where I had to like try not to crack

1:09:43

up because the

1:09:45

writing is so good and she does this thing

1:09:47

which she does it in her other stories too

1:09:50

um a type of withholding like with

1:09:53

the fork you only

1:09:55

realize later that in his rant

1:09:58

he'd like smack the fork. off the

1:10:00

table. And it's this

1:10:02

very satisfying way of figuring that out. And the

1:10:04

same way with the car accident and all these

1:10:06

things, this lovely sort of

1:10:09

dramatic withholding. Yeah, yeah.

1:10:12

Well, thank you David. Oh, it's so

1:10:14

much fun. It's such a great story. Sarah

1:10:18

Swenyan Bynum is the author of three

1:10:20

books of fiction. Madeline is Sleeping, a

1:10:22

winner of the Janet Heidinger Kafka prize.

1:10:25

Miss Henkel Chronicles and Lights, which

1:10:27

was published in 2020 and was

1:10:29

a finalist for the LA Times Book Prize and the

1:10:31

Story Prize. In 2010,

1:10:34

she was chosen as one of the New Yorkers

1:10:36

20 under 40 fiction writers. David

1:10:39

Bismosgis is a filmmaker and writer. He's published

1:10:41

two story collections and two novels, The Free

1:10:43

World, which was a finalist for the Governor

1:10:45

General of the World and the Killer Prize,

1:10:48

and The Betrayer, which won the National Jewish Book

1:10:50

Award. He was also chosen as one

1:10:52

of the New Yorkers 20 under 40 in 2010. You

1:10:57

can download more than 200 previous episodes of

1:10:59

the New Yorker Fiction Podcast or subscribe to

1:11:01

the podcast for free in Apple Podcast. On

1:11:04

the Writers' Voice podcast, you can hear short stories

1:11:06

from the magazine read by their authors. You

1:11:09

can find the Writers' Voice and other New Yorker

1:11:11

podcasts on your podcast app. Tell

1:11:13

us what you thought of this program on our Facebook page

1:11:16

or rate in the US on Apple Podcast. This

1:11:19

episode of the New Yorker Fiction Podcast was produced

1:11:21

by Jelsey Bost. I'm

1:11:23

Debra Treisman. Thanks for listening. I'm

1:11:42

Alex Schwartz. I'm Nomi Frey. I'm

1:11:44

Vincent Cunningham. This is Critics at Large,

1:11:46

a New Yorker podcast for the culturally

1:11:49

curious. Each week, we're going

1:11:51

to talk about a big idea that's showing

1:11:53

up across the cultural landscape and we'll trace

1:11:55

it through all the mediums we love. Books,

1:11:57

movies, television, music, art. That's

1:12:00

what I've been accustomed to. Of course. What

1:12:03

are you guys excited to cover in the next few

1:12:05

months? There's a new translation of the Iliad

1:12:07

that's coming up, Emily Wilson. I'm really excited

1:12:09

to see whether I can read the Iliad

1:12:11

again, whether I'm that literate. I

1:12:13

mean, the gurry event. I can't wait

1:12:15

to hear Adam Driver go again at an Italian

1:12:18

accent in Michael Mann's Ferrari. He

1:12:20

can't stop. I mean, and bless

1:12:22

him, I can't wait. Molto bene.

1:12:24

Molto bene. Molto bene. We

1:12:27

hope you'll join us for new episodes

1:12:29

each Thursday. Follow Critics At Large today,

1:12:31

wherever you get podcasts. You

1:12:34

really don't want to miss this. Don't. Don't

1:12:36

miss this. Don't miss it. See you soon. When

1:12:44

it comes to silent luxury, eBay gets

1:12:46

it. They're making sure the things you

1:12:48

love and want are checked by experts,

1:12:50

not just any experts. They're real people

1:12:52

who really love these things. And they

1:12:54

have real hands-on authentication experience. So

1:12:57

when you see that shiny blue tech

1:12:59

mark that says authenticity guarantee, you

1:13:01

can shock with confidence, knowing every

1:13:04

inch, stitch, sole, and logo is

1:13:06

verified real and authentic. That's

1:13:08

how you know that eBay's got your

1:13:10

back. Because when you finally step into

1:13:12

those sneakers, flip on that watch, light

1:13:15

up in gold, swing that handbag, or

1:13:17

step out in that streetwear, you'll get

1:13:19

that authentic glow. With

1:13:21

eBay authenticity guarantee, that feeling of

1:13:23

real is always in reach. Ensure

1:13:26

your next purchase is a real deal.

1:13:28

Visit ebay.com for terms. The

1:13:32

New Yorker Radio Hour Fiction is

1:13:34

supported by the official Sympathizer podcast

1:13:36

from HBO. From executive producers

1:13:38

Park Chan-Wook and Robert Downey Jr., the

1:13:41

Sympathizer is the new HBO original limited

1:13:43

series based on the Pulitzer Prize-winning novel

1:13:45

of the same name. On

1:13:48

the official Sympathizer podcast, join host Phillip

1:13:50

Nguyen in conversation with the cast, crew,

1:13:52

and author Viet Thanh Nguyen as they

1:13:55

discuss the making of this historic series. Stream

1:13:58

new episodes of HBO's The Sympathizer. Sundays

1:14:00

exclusively on Macs and

1:14:02

listen to the sympathizer podcast wherever you

1:14:05

listen to podcasts.