0:00

on an evening in early

0:02

december 2018, the young

0:04

ceo of a crypto-currency exchange, reportedly

0:07

dies, while on his in india,

0:09

this death is not announce to customers

0:11

for another month and when they're told your

0:13

cotton is the only person to all the passwords

0:16

to their fun conspiracy theories,

0:18

grow leaving some to wonder to

0:20

gerald cotten still be alive, all

0:22

the

0:25

missing money it was like, but

0:27

what

0:28

adapt encrypted land available

0:30

now and cbc listen and everywhere

0:32

you that your podcast

0:36

this is a cbc pointers

0:44

when the body of human rights activist cream

0:46

of the luge is found off the shores of toronto

0:49

and investigation into her mysterious deaths

0:51

leads all the way back to pakistan the

0:54

country she had recently flat in

0:56

the brand new six part series the kill

0:58

list host mary link explores

1:01

the rampant abductions and killings

1:03

of dissidents in pakistan the

1:05

dangers that follow those who fleet of the west

1:08

and a terrifying intelligence agency with

1:10

tentacles around the globe this

1:12

is a story of brave inspirational

1:14

people on a tireless quest

1:16

for justice who will speak truth to

1:18

power at all costs people

1:21

whose hope fuel dump in this

1:23

story of discovery one that people

1:25

have not heard the series six to

1:27

answer how did karima die

1:30

and with pakistan really carry out

1:32

an assassination far beyond it's borders

1:35

now here's the first episode of

1:37

the kill nest

1:41

the fall in episode contains difficult

1:43

subject matter including references

1:45

to sue side and torture these

1:47

take care

2:01

i'm going to tell you a story that a powerful

2:03

state doesn't want you to know about

2:06

a crisis they've tried to keep hidden

2:09

about tens of thousands who have disappeared

2:12

and others who have escaped only

2:14

to have the threats follow them around

2:16

them world

2:19

the story too dangerous to tell if

2:21

for some is meant and enough and

2:24

a kill list

2:26

some who fled to the west and is up dead

2:29

many began to question is nowhere

2:31

safe for they have been

2:33

assassinated

2:38

they never let's

2:41

begin on an autumn day in twenty

2:43

in

2:52

a small group of protesters

2:54

has gathered in downtown toronto commanding

2:57

their attention as a young woman named

2:59

karima one

3:02

painting

3:06

he's wearing a beautifully imported solve

3:08

rap loosely around her head and shoulders

3:11

and reading from a speech in her hands

3:14

by

3:16

one of my

3:23

then

3:31

the nine hundred has done there's

3:34

a good chance you've never even heard of cream

3:36

as homeland of baluchi stance baluchi

3:38

province a province from pakistan or

3:41

the human rights abuses against her people

3:43

the baluchi the karima is

3:45

trying to change

4:03

the small five foot three better

4:05

presence is one of undeniable strength

4:22

may i remind you

4:34

the threat of assassination

4:37

hung heavy over cream is had surrounded

4:39

by the abductions and killings of family

4:41

members and fellow activists karima

4:44

knew she could be next

4:47

i find hurricane harvey

4:51

today she is standing in the city

4:54

where she fled for her life and despite

4:56

constant threats over the years morning

4:58

heard to start speaking note she's

5:01

refused seemingly

5:03

impossible to silence until

5:06

she was

5:11

the long time critic of pakistan's

5:13

thirty seven year old karima below

5:15

to devoted her life to speaking

5:18

for the people abilities done she

5:20

was reported missing on sunday

5:22

i finally got a call from a

5:25

, friend was also very close friend

5:27

of karima what's happening

5:29

with karima where is she i

5:31

said what are you saying the

5:33

have you watched the news i said

5:35

no he went missing and

5:38

nobody knows where she is

5:41

she was found dead in toronto on

5:43

monday she's been living in exile

5:45

in canada for several years

5:47

it was really

5:49

talking in a country like

5:51

canada we came here for safety i

5:53

cannot explain it we are in charge

5:56

as friends and family more

5:57

her dad is making

5:59

international headlines somebody

6:07

that he mama knows was found dead under

6:09

mysterious circumstances in toronto

6:11

she has been vocal about pakistan army

6:14

and government atrocities in been noticed

6:16

on

6:16

and while the press was reporting her

6:18

age is thirty seven she was

6:21

actually only thirty four according

6:23

to a family member

6:26

creamer was revered by her people for

6:28

her defined activism against the pakistani

6:31

authorities despite the mortal danger

6:33

it put her in

6:35

and twenty six thing for him it was named and the b

6:37

b c's annual list of the world's hundred

6:39

most inspirational and influential

6:41

women but i first heard of cream overlooks

6:44

the day after she went missing that a

6:46

her body was pulled from the frigid waters

6:48

of lake ontario of the shores of toronto

6:57

they told us it owned i think one

6:59

pm

7:01

the mere my fraud is karim his older brother

7:03

he remembers that day when the police told

7:05

them they'd found his sister's body

7:08

it was december twenty first twenty

7:10

twenty

7:11

they found her body it in own cylinder

7:13

something a dent in that moment

7:15

they say they find her body in

7:18

the water

7:19

though that that was

7:21

a to be told us that was it and

7:23

then what happened

7:24

they told us that we go no contact

7:27

you will you can see the body

7:29

like hell they said that

7:31

is this still considered an evidence he

7:33

cannot show you the body because often

7:35

a total because the sun and

7:37

the death we still don't know how it what

7:40

happened and

7:41

some close to karima worried they knew

7:43

what might have happened the pakistan has

7:45

found a way to assassinate her in toronto

7:51

listen a day later samir says

7:53

the police had more information for the family

7:56

after sixty dollars they start calling

7:58

us and

7:59

it are talking with often trying to convince

8:02

us that get is nothing to look

8:04

into the end it is just a case

8:07

of self harm or it

8:09

least there is no other

8:11

party and ball or nov afford

8:13

play we

8:16

told the police simply that we

8:18

cannot agree with this because

8:20

too early

8:22

the sixteen seventeen our how you come to

8:24

that conclusion this and all but you

8:26

know this is this is really nothing

8:28

we think this that's okay i'll

8:30

, know even within sixteen

8:33

hours you cannot even employed you investigative

8:35

tool

8:37

the near also argue to the police agreement

8:39

with a high profile dissidents was led

8:41

to canada for her life and that

8:43

she had continued to receive threats and exile

8:46

the mere express to the police is concerned that creamer

8:49

could have been murdered the he says please

8:51

told them their investigation found no

8:53

evidence of foul play

8:57

they paid know you know he looks

8:59

like we are sure about it and then

9:02

once they were convinced that we're not going

9:04

to agree with them as

9:06

went out with a tweet

9:08

there's where please tweet it

9:10

the circumstances have been investigated and

9:12

officers have determined this to be a non criminal

9:14

deaths and no foul play suspected

9:17

we have updated the family

9:21

the death certificate listen drowning as

9:23

the cause of death and ruled a suicide

9:26

but or family tells me they've never fully understood

9:29

how or why authorities reached this

9:31

conclusion

9:32

the road to trying to please asking how they

9:34

concluded cream his death was a suicide

9:37

in , response to us up and spokesman

9:39

wrote that after an autopsy in

9:41

the corner determine the death was quoted not

9:44

suspicious and our investigation supported

9:46

that conclusion and quote that

9:48

they added if further information if further

9:51

came to light suggesting otherwise

9:53

they would review it

10:01

how did i believe song

10:03

leave this should investigate

10:06

properly one

10:08

not even suggesting that there was something

10:10

wrong happened yes but

10:13

to show some concern

10:16

show some respect

10:18

, okay this person have a history

10:20

of by susan there

10:23

might be something there

10:25

might be something

10:28

others are more direct i

10:31

, think it was one of the finest

10:33

moments for the trailblazers i think

10:35

was given to or front line officer

10:38

who looked at the immediate evidence

10:40

before him or her and

10:43

came to the wrong conclusion

10:45

chris alexander was kansas

10:47

mr of immigration when cream a sled

10:50

pakistan with the help of a teen embassy

10:53

mean , assassinations take place

10:55

the perpetrators often go

10:57

to great lengths to mates

11:00

fair work look like something

11:02

else to look like a suicide to

11:04

look like an accident or to look like

11:07

some other form of random violence

11:10

violence his death in the country where she had

11:12

sought refuge troubles refuge

11:15

canada had gone to great lengths to give her

11:17

our production we had failed

11:19

to protect her so i was shocked

11:22

heartbroken do things to commit suicide

11:25

absolutely not i think she was killed

11:38

my name is mary lake and

11:40

the says the kill list episode

11:42

one

11:59

go yeah yeah this recording

12:02

like know

12:03

samir is talking to me

12:05

from his home in north toronto where

12:07

he lives with his wife and two kids karima

12:11

had lived there as well it's been

12:13

about four months since his sister's

12:15

death conversations about karima

12:18

remains difficult for him when

12:25

a young daughter or son asked for their beloved aren't

12:28

he changes his subjects these days

12:30

he says the only talks book crima to me

12:35

over the months samir and i built a relationship

12:37

to phone and video costs we've been

12:39

separated by pandemics and close

12:41

to two thousand kilometers him in

12:43

toronto me on the east coast of

12:45

canada

12:47

the

12:50

mirror to go back to the beginning me

12:53

and cari uma we're both born in uae

12:56

coming , was born in the mid nineteen eighties

12:59

in the you a ease the united

13:01

arab emirates my

13:03

father was father migrant worker into

13:05

doing like so many bottles

13:07

somebody had yet to speed on having prospect

13:10

back home

13:14

he was my best friend always

13:17

the report as kids we fought a lot

13:19

in only fought but she

13:21

was always my best friend she understood

13:23

what i think like if were

13:25

joking with love making fun of

13:27

someone or see , this

13:30

this quality to you

13:32

know empress people people

13:35

mad at him and our society

13:37

girls are not in of they were

13:40

not treated as equals but

13:42

somehow nobody

13:45

dot to treat that he money was

13:52

my earliest memory as when we

13:54

were living in as mom it's a

13:56

state into we had said

13:58

small state

13:59

living gambian home and then one

14:02

day we just got out of the house

14:05

without telling anyone me and charisma

14:07

we saw the ramble anyway

14:10

it then maybe once a year or

14:12

twice a year sometime you can you don't get

14:14

that it's very seldom tax

14:16

so to see a rambling you eat three be

14:18

you know something to don't see every day

14:21

and , were kids we just

14:23

rambling city both of us we just

14:26

went on and on on and on and eventually

14:30

eventually we were bought by this sense

14:34

on the other side of the fence a beach

14:37

and open ocean into a serene

14:39

both fell samir says if

14:41

not for the sense the dotes they

14:44

would have ever stopped

14:45

if there was no fence maybe we

14:48

both feeling was people chasing the

14:50

rambo and be me i saw but

14:52

, is obvious mahmood with customer

14:54

she was always edwin service

15:04

the near things he was nine and cream

15:06

a seven than the family moved back to

15:08

blow to stone

15:09

it wasn't a different one it was totally

15:12

different world

15:13

the landscape

15:14

the rugged mountains photos

15:16

and deserts little vegetation

15:19

the ordering afghanistan and iran to the

15:21

west and the arabian sea to

15:23

the so the larger the pakistan's

15:25

four provinces making up nearly half of

15:28

the countries but it's sparsely populated

15:30

the place unknown to the the world

15:33

the majority their belong to to ethnic groups

15:36

within half hour baluchi the next largest

15:38

the pashtuns post have lived

15:40

there for centuries long before pakistan

15:42

was created in nineteen forty seven

15:46

like you if you're living in boston you

15:48

you , think your boss funny because there there's

15:51

no passed on to to

15:53

of not represented in any will

15:55

present in in with as blue

15:57

to stand sets of vast wealth

15:59

of gas and minerals and is considered

16:02

the richest of all the provinces

16:04

in terms of resources is a

16:06

huge economic driver for the pakistani

16:09

economy but the people of

16:11

blue to stand for the poorest

16:13

not because thought phone

16:15

don't have resources or the province's

16:17

equidistant they don't have the resources to

16:20

have a decent schoolers even drinking

16:22

water

16:24

they are pumping they throw guess

16:27

i'm a lot of stuff since the fifty

16:29

eight i believe for fifty six fifty's

16:32

built pumping it to islamabad got

16:34

our got and we even don't have it

16:37

in our homes

16:38

even in a few cities and villages

16:40

like or but

16:42

the amenities sound

16:44

elsewhere in pakistan's are often

16:46

scarce

16:48

now i'm talking with you

16:51

in two hundred fifty degree

16:53

fifty one fifty two in

16:56

we don't have electricity back there

16:59

that's because the electricity is constantly

17:01

been shut down

17:03

the in their blisters on get bored

17:05

because open t

17:07

the loot son has the highest reporter

17:09

rate and all of pakistan of women

17:12

dying from complications related to

17:14

pregnancy and childbirth

17:16

there's no help kids you know security

17:18

there is no opportunity for us

17:20

to you know less effect

17:22

three or something else is

17:24

is bad but as the sword blessings was your

17:27

three

17:29

at least in the early days they were free

17:32

i'm not not not anymore now they

17:34

have a huge amount of fear military

17:36

presence but that time it was a different

17:39

time

17:40

that time was the early nineteen nineties

17:43

and cream and samir left the u a e

17:45

and began a new life in a place

17:47

completely foreign to them

17:50

the

17:51

you and the mountains and

17:53

our grandfathers the other than

17:55

the far and you're

17:58

going up in a huge family don't

18:00

sisters aunts uncles

18:03

it was the family's ancestral home of trump

18:06

high in the mountains of southern baluchistan

18:09

there was nothing basically

18:11

know nothing that can connect

18:13

both with a more drunk blood we

18:16

were for both of everybody

18:18

was full of so we did we didn't know we're was

18:20

because everybody was foot but still

18:23

you feel the freedom is

18:26

lost land and you can go

18:28

everywhere you want you can haunt you

18:30

can go for fishing

18:32

and fishing and knows you everybody

18:34

this fifty you have the but he knows directly

18:37

towards regeneration so in

18:39

that sense it was good

18:45

if something distinguish could be much

18:47

use already it or herself as a human being

18:50

you know to like compromise

18:53

for anything she would have to have this

18:55

advanced and dignity sci fi

18:57

like you are doing something against our

19:00

does not just she will always stood

19:02

up that was hot flushes you never compromise

19:07

especially when demanding that women

19:09

have a voice

19:11

mark see on was

19:13

will tell him something of course

19:15

you are living in a society where people with told

19:18

will judge you will then have them be

19:20

consequences of into the

19:22

the consequences but

19:24

she will never stop she will keep

19:26

on you know sue keep on crossing

19:28

red line

19:30

trump there was a high school for

19:32

boys only

19:34

that a few teachers volunteer to teach girls

19:36

on or off hours karima

19:38

jumped at the chance she was a

19:40

quick study in bright she

19:42

was also extorted asean assess

19:44

because she and few of my

19:46

other cousin they have to industrialize

19:49

been edited that zune

19:51

from a one off hours maybe learn

19:53

more so she stood out

19:55

result of you know them and physically

19:57

also due to her green eyes those

20:00

extraordinary green eyes would one

20:02

day become famous and below to silence

20:05

the beauties was not her defining feature

20:08

what the her personality

20:11

i don't know how you explain

20:13

it you cannot explain get as much but

20:16

they must have charisma

20:25

karim i was growing up the quiet peaceful

20:27

baluchistan the for childhood was disappearing

20:30

salutes have always had a tense

20:32

relationship with a pakistani government and

20:34

that's meant continuous uprisings against

20:36

pakistan since the country's formations

20:39

the blue to have long pushed for greater autonomy

20:41

and benefits from their vast natural

20:43

resources that smear says there's

20:45

a deeper reason for his pupils rebellion against

20:48

the state

20:49

the main point is the dignity of the people

20:51

people are fighting for their weight is

20:54

human dignity it's not that we

20:56

expect box on will give us

20:58

our the and i can all make all fortune do other than

21:00

that won't happen because it never happened

21:02

never oh daily our resources

21:05

will never be spent on us or something

21:07

like that but our basic

21:09

basic human dignity is being

21:12

violated every day

21:17

karima was coming of age during ballou to sunsets

21:20

and latest insurgency one

21:22

that continues to this day

21:27

i would say that she is

21:29

the child of that but

21:32

, conflict with the

21:34

pakistani state state

21:36

the brutality that state has last

21:41

two decades

21:42

that's our job which is a blue activist

21:45

he lives in toronto he says

21:47

to understand cream us is to understand

21:49

what's been happening and blue to stand in recent

21:51

years

21:53

if he was born like ten years

21:56

before she would not have been karima

21:58

that we know

22:00

the early two thousand the government's crackdown

22:02

against the armed separatists movements was growing

22:05

even more brutal and bloody the

22:07

military has no longer only targeting small

22:09

groups of fighters tucked away in the mountains

22:11

they also and after human rights activist

22:14

academics and ordinary citizens

22:16

including people close to karima

22:19

the time and the events that happen

22:22

in a lifetime that completely surrounded

22:24

her those are the things

22:26

that finally made her

22:28

stand up things that inspired

22:31

or love and she she was completely

22:33

driven by that

22:40

the familiar scene and

22:41

the storm large groups of the

22:43

luge often women holding

22:45

outdoor vigils sometimes aside

22:47

a press clubs for government buildings

22:50

searching photos other missing loved

22:52

ones abducted by the military

22:55

some missing for more than a decade

23:03

the people abducted by the military and

23:05

a son or known as the disappeared

23:08

grabbed it military checkpoints are from

23:10

rates on their homes or simply well

23:12

city with friends at friends at it's

23:14

a com antarctic and blue to stone

23:19

the disappeared or hidden away in

23:21

military cells were their tortured

23:24

sometimes for years and

23:26

then released as shattered human beings

23:28

others are murdered their bodies

23:31

with visible signs of mutilation tossed

23:34

and random places for their families a find

23:36

the practice is commonly known as

23:39

a killer dump

23:40

the main purpose is to silence

23:42

any criticism for the government or

23:44

it's military

23:49

earlier on those

23:52

who are in terms of there's

23:54

some

23:55

in your column are a renowned

23:57

human rights lawyer who is a secretary

23:59

jim

23:59

well of amnesty international

24:13

hi the circle

24:15

all hung in conjunction

24:17

with them local love police

24:20

the frontier corps is a paramilitary

24:22

force of the pakistani army stations

24:25

in baluchistan

24:27

the only common practice for

24:30

, rights defenders as just

24:33

see them to be these appear instantly

24:40

with little attention from the outside world

24:43

she says thousands of baluchi and

24:45

pashtuns have been illegally abducted

24:47

and polluters done by the pakistani state

24:50

commissioner

24:52

receive home in the human rights commission of

24:54

pakistan route around

24:56

forty

25:05

pm and i thought

25:07

i saw the her number

25:09

of a shows and means

25:12

i will say means of

25:14

family members in greece

25:17

so we can

25:24

there are no longer okay one died

25:26

and that

25:27

sure blue animal it's it's

25:31

when families beg for their relatives release

25:34

or even news of their whereabouts the

25:36

military will deny even hearing

25:38

of the person

25:40

hi so

25:48

some hope they are really nothing

25:51

to always they don't have a

25:53

funny to create

25:55

really sad situation

25:58

for situation for suddenly these

26:00

there are all suffering each

26:02

family has lost someone

26:05

from the family the effort

26:07

jar would far from a distant

26:09

relative if you go into a town

26:12

or a small village where that are like

26:14

hundred homes for example home

26:18

each family has been scott karima

26:20

also suffered she felt all

26:23

that trauma she was there every

26:25

day was a life of fear in

26:27

williston if you're living today's

26:30

you don't know what happens next day if you leave

26:32

home you're going to school

26:34

even

26:35

the parents are not sure you will be returning

26:38

that's the situation over there that's a reality

26:41

and i don't know how they cope with

26:43

that but that's but that's

26:45

that has been going on in this from a for the last

26:48

twenty years continuously since two thousand

26:50

and two

26:54

two thousand and four samir says

26:56

a cousin of there's go home so late went

26:58

missing he was driving a truck for the produce

27:01

when he was stopped at a checkpoint and taken

27:03

by the frontier course he was non

27:05

activist but been a relative of cream as

27:07

politically active family made him

27:09

a target

27:11

so many close to karim a had already

27:14

gone missing are being killed by gore

27:16

hims abduction affected karim a profoundly

27:18

she was only in her teens when she started

27:21

attending the protests for the disappeared

27:23

holding up a picture of gore him demanding

27:25

he be released after

27:28

four years he finally was and

27:31

although he had survived he was traumatized

27:33

that samir says a bigger tragedy a

27:35

way that their family when another cousin

27:38

but she was killed by a death squads

27:40

the death squads or private malicious sometimes

27:43

islamic extremists are petty criminals

27:46

often armed by the military to quash

27:48

the insurgency and ballou to stolen

27:52

my like many other young people

27:54

who became active in politics

27:57

after two thousand two

27:59

three two thousand and four they

28:02

became active under a

28:04

very brutal military operation

28:07

that was being run by the state

28:09

itself directly from slow about

28:12

two thousand and six free my joined

28:15

a faction of the blues students organizations

28:18

to be a so assad as

28:20

odd meaning free this

28:22

nonviolent

28:24

dude and seeking better living conditions

28:26

for their people they also want

28:28

independence and cream stop

28:30

using her family's last name of mcroberts

28:33

replacing it with pollutes and

28:35

this is a common practice amongst her people

28:37

to show solidarity with the cause

28:40

creamer traveled through flew to stun

28:43

advocating for soon rights and girls'

28:45

education among other things

28:47

and although her work for the b s opener

28:49

at great risk creamer was

28:51

unrelenting and she was emerging

28:54

as a natural leader a rarity

28:56

for young woman in a highly patriarchal

28:59

tribal society

29:04

you are long as they're on the siege

29:11

although her face was covered but

29:13

everyone listening to a voice and she

29:15

spoke very boldly

29:22

though she became well known as a

29:24

speaker and she had this family

29:26

background

29:27

because of which she our family was already

29:30

you live big time target

29:34

the knew exactly that whatever she was

29:36

doing the and they will come to get

29:38

her or she can be target

29:40

killed that on the stage

29:42

but she kept on going forward

29:45

and she showed the guts and the

29:47

courage that a woman or

29:49

girl there's no less i

29:52

can completely pinpoint and say that there

29:54

were times when they were situations

29:56

of life and the loss

29:58

of your life and she stood

30:00

there

30:01

bravely

30:02

this is what inspired everyone around

30:05

her that's how she rose the ranks

30:07

of be assists

30:15

if you were looking for someone to be

30:17

the poster child for the

30:20

fight against injustice and but it some

30:22

other think you could come across a better candidate

30:25

in two thousand seven villain marks

30:28

travel to ballou to stance the british

30:30

dutch journalist was curious about what

30:32

was stealing the latest insurgency and

30:34

everywhere a villain traveled to kept hearing

30:37

the name creamer bullets everyone

30:39

was saying you have to speak to karima

30:44

he had no fancy tribal

30:47

background

30:48

he was someone that had

30:51

a sense least focused her studies

30:53

in her academic energy on this cause

30:56

from a very young age she felt the person

30:58

consequences of then you

31:00

know a bit like some i'm i'm a lotta you society

31:02

east see from a young age

31:05

they become invested in an asset

31:07

like this script a timber the

31:10

you understand why they become

31:12

this rallying cry for the

31:14

members of a broader movement and

31:16

it wasn't a surprise to me having met her

31:18

that she became this essentially icon

31:21

this young icon of bleach right she

31:24

was of the time already a very prominent

31:26

young voice in this organization

31:29

and frankly based on all the conversations

31:32

and meetings i have over several weeks without a young

31:34

woman i met involved in efforts

31:36

trying to highlight human rights abuses

31:39

enforced disappearance extra judicial killings

31:42

pretty young people like curry mri met

31:44

the consequences as having been no

31:46

to speak critically of the pakistani

31:49

military central authority the even local

31:51

authorities though consequence could be no

31:53

serious

31:55

i'm says his meeting with karima had

31:58

a cloak and dagger feel to it

32:00

the was taken by car to the town of nand

32:02

in southern blue to stand down one

32:05

dusty rhodes and another has slowed

32:07

mud brick homes and a scattering of palm

32:09

trees

32:11

and we were very cautious

32:13

about how we made it to that

32:15

location to , that

32:17

we weren't being followed as we had been previously

32:21

they suddenly stopped in front of a simple whitewash

32:24

building when i walked into

32:26

the room where i was gonna film

32:29

the interview with her like many

32:31

homes in that region of the

32:34

latest on credible

32:36

he outside normally

32:39

this one doorway and a couple a very small

32:41

windows and that do away with the with ideas

32:43

for my what i call a key lights to kind

32:45

of liked the face of the interviewee the

32:49

like falling on her face when i set up for

32:51

the interview she just had this incredible

32:54

green eyes and

32:56

it's very open expressive face

33:00

then she didn't need to raise

33:02

a voice when she when she talked

33:04

about these incredibly difficult topic she

33:06

talked to the very high tempo you

33:09

could tell she wasn't someone who was stumbling

33:11

over her words

33:13

she would look

33:16

at me besieging li during his interview

33:18

waiting for my friend to translate

33:20

what she said and seemingly

33:22

willing for me to kind of understand

33:25

and empathize with what she was saying and we

33:29

threw that word charisma around a

33:31

huge amount with people and it's very

33:33

difficult to articulate what exactly it

33:35

means in a specific context

33:38

for for me see just threw me

33:40

into her experiences

33:42

and experiences worldview very

33:45

very quickly and i remember

33:47

leaving the , where we'd met

33:50

met with this very strong impression of

33:53

her of sixty her eyes

33:56

and her energy that that has stayed

33:58

with me for a long time since

34:16

in two thousand nine life became

34:18

even more dangerous for karim us she

34:21

was rising to the ranks of the be a queer

34:23

life in montreal was

34:25

wiles montreal in the

34:27

nineties with a great time

34:30

but it had a dark side

34:32

it's worth

34:33

not a thief city for gay people buy

34:35

them that , else

34:37

was behind a series of deaths in the city

34:40

somebody is going to men women and a one

34:44

one since his sword and this is de ville

34:46

de montreal murder get early

34:48

access to episodes as c b c

34:51

that see that class listen or

34:53

by subscribing to the cbc

34:55

to crime premium channel on

34:57

apple podcasts

35:00

though and student leaders kept disappearing

35:03

around that time the uk guardian newspaper

35:06

reported that one third of the victims

35:08

of the kill and dump policies were members

35:11

of karim as organization

35:13

two thousand and thirteen pakistan's

35:15

national counterterrorism authority band

35:18

the facts and karima belong to the

35:20

be a so a said

35:24

in an interview with a voices

35:26

when karima was still in polluter son she

35:28

talks about these threats and i

35:30

quote for us peaceful

35:33

struggle as been turned into a lethal

35:35

poison during the previous three

35:37

years many of our members have

35:39

been brutally killed in two thousand

35:42

nine the vice chairman of our organization

35:45

secure majeed was kidnapped

35:47

by the secret services while he's attending

35:49

he's attending of procession he is still

35:51

missing

35:52

the news has been tightened around

35:55

our necks

35:57

after secure majeed abduction cream

36:00

became his replacement five

36:02

years later in march twenty four teams

36:04

another beer so leader was abducted

36:06

and crate us the capital city of bluestone

36:09

this time it was a top person the chairman's

36:12

i had pollutes kidnap incentive

36:14

creamer here she is remembering

36:16

that day and instagram video she

36:18

posted and twenty twenty

36:22

and

36:54

it was very secret meeting so

36:56

only the send for leaders what that actually

36:58

means means left and scatters in

37:00

small groups cream i was with saw head

37:03

and a couple others suddenly

37:05

dozens and military vehicles and unmarked

37:07

cars can speeding and from all directions

37:10

and men and military uniforms and civilian

37:12

clothes jumped out

37:14

they were not only looking for and they were looking for

37:16

houses

37:17

the or so members started to run away for

37:20

the authorities were able to grab saw head however

37:23

they didn't know what the time who he was

37:25

nor did they realize karim us was

37:27

raped by his side her face concealed

37:29

by a headscarf not for religious

37:32

reasons but for her safety she

37:34

had never shown her face and public our

37:37

every time she went to some meetings

37:39

or something even when she had to

37:42

you know like make speeches onstage

37:45

ah face was completely solid completely

37:47

solid had seen her face so that was one

37:49

thing which was that was protecting her

37:51

she's still even at that time siege

37:54

of that risk the soldiers were dragging

37:56

saw had a way karima in a few

37:58

others pretended to be family members karima

38:01

was shooting where you take your relatives

38:03

she is innocent

38:06

he was fighting with the soldier getting

38:09

released because she knew that if they take

38:11

vi the way that's the last them anyone

38:13

with see him

38:18

there is karima again

38:20

and from there

38:43

after his arrest she

38:45

was the white shirts parsons automatically

38:47

she became the acting chairperson then

38:50

finally it came to came point that

38:53

she started becoming the next target

38:56

by the state because they knew that she

38:58

would be the next chairperson she would be

39:00

elected

39:01

and he was formerly elected and twenty

39:04

six teams becoming the first female

39:06

leader in the history of the organization

39:09

you know what i can tell you something when

39:12

she began the chairperson the beer

39:14

so gave her a title the

39:17

call luma no my as

39:19

a local word in bellucci and probably

39:21

language which simply means

39:23

mother the became so

39:25

popular luma cari uma means

39:28

mother karima they said that we

39:30

have our motherland we have a mother karima

39:33

so that's how people her

39:35

police friends who knew her

39:37

that's how much they were emotionally

39:40

attached to her

39:45

after becoming the

39:47

chairperson situation and well as some

39:49

for her was completely like

39:51

the state was trying to hunt down

39:54

she had already been sent many

39:56

messages of threatening messages that

39:58

messages

39:59

and not just threats there were serious

40:02

attempts on her life screams home

40:04

and some was shot at and came

40:06

under several mortar attacks

40:09

yeah warm waters landing in our home

40:12

and dealers bullet landing bullet landing whole

40:14

house was shattered with the bullets

40:17

while by they've see

40:19

the f c the frontier corps samir

40:21

recalls that tax that nearly killed

40:23

another sister

40:25

in there was a mortar landed just seconds

40:28

after my twin sister lived

40:30

the thought if they stadium

40:32

full of the met my twin sister

40:34

might be maimed or killed my

40:37

that mortar was locked pure

40:39

luck did they just left that sporting

40:41

are helpful

40:42

the family survived these bombings but

40:44

astray mordor meant them killed a neighbor

40:48

yeah our military mortar

40:50

a heads up a house next door not

40:53

only that but to kill a teenager gov

40:55

neighbor's daughter a , girl

40:57

died and the the thing is is

40:59

my sister die or like

41:01

my neighbor's daughter die the problem

41:04

is be a there's no no

41:06

way you can hold accountable box

41:08

thirty minutes

41:14

the you bring the microphone close your

41:17

mouth i

41:20

don't i use sounds great now

41:22

you sound great now

41:23

okay

41:25

the guns my fab is creamers younger sister

41:28

she's still listen pakistan

41:30

how me a bit about your sister karima

41:33

we're five fifteen one bread

41:35

those years younger than family

41:37

of and

41:38

we were for she

41:40

said oh yeah

41:42

the younger than fifty

41:45

why we as was done a

41:47

really close to us

41:50

the guns no longer lives and blue to stand she

41:52

moved with her remaining family members to quraishi

41:55

pakistan's largest city because

41:57

is no longer safe to live in their home and polluters

42:01

my my dad and sisters

42:04

are leaving right a refugee

42:06

in our own country we

42:08

can't visit gen our when desolate

42:11

on our

42:12

the guns remembers the threatening phone calls

42:14

creamer was received when she was still in baluchistan

42:18

calls from the i as i thought

42:20

the sun's feared intelligence agency

42:22

threatening to kill crima in a way that no

42:25

one would know what has happened to her

42:28

the method when did call me and played

42:31

me down with said to me

42:33

we went to your life good know

42:35

one would know how we remove

42:38

you from the place

42:39

the i was taught like did

42:42

the gun says the i as i would also follow

42:44

creamer outside the house

42:46

the town i'm with her

42:48

when they play a card with

42:51

the with get guns when i

42:53

say for laws dating maybe

42:55

were if we play time

42:57

then she went to stop the why to do

42:59

said if you were stop the work

43:01

all the other people stood

43:05

the creamer wouldn't stop her activism and

43:08

they i as i began reading their house

43:10

on a more frequent basis mogens

43:12

remembers her and another sister think

43:15

guns but to their heads

43:17

put the gun and all for aid

43:19

and they said if

43:21

take only one thought to say

43:23

kids for us to kill you feel like

43:28

the isi eventually left as crima

43:31

was their target but she kept as eating

43:33

them and i as i kept swimming agents

43:35

bursting through the doors into a house full

43:38

of creamers relatives

43:40

every time when the raid at dawn

43:42

coon they said weird

43:44

the uma been the i'll go men

43:46

colored your face and we said no

43:48

she has not hear this

43:50

use demand if the women show their eyes

43:52

they were looking for cream as distinctive green

43:54

eyes but the women wouldn't budge

43:57

the guns says smiling

44:00

the woman fag know if not allow

44:03

the other main feature i

44:11

crema would go from safe host to safe hosts

44:13

only rarely daring to go home to see

44:15

her family

44:17

the knew that once she was caught that would

44:19

be the end of her life

44:21

that are darwin

44:22

the thing over there and bella some

44:25

everyone , the young people people

44:28

are active lead engaged in

44:30

this struggle they

44:33

, well aware that once

44:35

they get into the hands of the the

44:37

military once , into

44:40

state custody custody

44:42

are taken to torture or they would be tortured

44:44

brutally and they will never see

44:47

the day of light again they will ever see their

44:49

family again they will end up

44:51

in some fields as

44:53

as corpses

44:55

it was growing fear cream i would become one

44:57

of those corpses

44:59

the government of pakistan had already charge creamer

45:01

was sedition acts which essentially means to

45:03

incite people to rebel against the state

45:07

there was always the chance a risk that

45:09

she would get arrested but she was wearing

45:11

all the shadows and everything scarves

45:14

you have to pay was self then finally

45:16

it came to a point that she started

45:18

becoming the next target

45:21

the state because they knew that she would

45:23

be the next chat person she would be elected

45:26

though in two thousand and fifteen when she became

45:28

officially elected as the chairperson

45:30

of be a so the all the nation had already

45:33

decided that she should leave the country

45:40

that lead in pakistan wouldn't be easy

45:43

and twenty six teams chris alexander

45:45

was kansas minister of immigration

45:48

and he became convinced that cream his life

45:50

was in danger and the she deserved asylum

45:54

how difficult to begin with was it to get her

45:56

owes because they are had been attacks on her

45:58

home still had been threats against her life

46:00

how difficult was it to get her own extremely

46:03

difficult this is something that the government

46:05

of pakistan would not have wanted to happen

46:08

it's embarrassing for them and so

46:10

our mission are high commission and i immigration

46:12

program had to go about this discreetly

46:15

snare the move fast they had

46:17

to arrange logistics and

46:20

not just obviously in islamabad by

46:22

involving these distant communities

46:24

and polluters done quite a long way

46:26

away from the capital so he was

46:28

the i think i team did extremely well

46:31

but it was tough work and it was risky

46:33

work for all of those involved

46:38

prima robbed in canada on november twenty

46:40

seventh twenty fifteen and continued

46:42

to speak out

46:43

matthew i sense as life to

46:45

been to your notice the a particular

46:47

nice wireless and been

46:49

including before the un

46:52

in the process thousand that bundle

46:54

social political activist and and it intellectuals

46:57

have been a situation he killed their

46:59

body is betting them off stop the and human

47:01

thought there had been done to it in

47:03

just related areas them

47:05

in exile the death threats continued

47:08

as well

47:09

up until she disappeared

47:11

i do know that cream i was

47:13

under threat

47:14

your analysis pakistani term

47:16

was to listen canada and was a close

47:18

friend of cream as

47:20

in fact many of my meetings with

47:22

her in the recent months before

47:24

her death she had been talking

47:27

about being followed you know

47:29

getting thread

47:30

putting one just before she went missing

47:33

samir share death threat with me

47:35

the was a direct message through twitter with a warning

47:38

quote i will get creamer

47:40

a christmas present she will never forget

47:43

the mirror says it was sent about two weeks

47:45

before her death he tells me he thinks

47:47

that was from a fake account adding in

47:49

his experience the pakistani military

47:52

has a habit of sending messages this way

47:54

the countess since been suspended a twitter

47:57

for violating it's rules

48:01

the last time cure and saw three months

48:03

with two months before her death

48:06

in october of and we were walking

48:08

downtown in toronto and we had

48:10

this long walk in which she was

48:12

is discussing how some

48:14

time she was afraid that the thread

48:17

could come real and then we would

48:19

both laugh and say well

48:21

you know she's in canada and she's live

48:23

and this could never happen in a country

48:25

like canada

48:32

clinical moods was last seen alive on

48:35

the afternoon of december twentieth twenty

48:37

twenty she was boarding a ferry

48:39

to visit one of our favorite places in toronto

48:41

the islands scattered on the edge of the city's

48:44

harbor

48:47

it was the next morning that the stone karima

48:49

in the water

48:53

my life a struggle in

48:55

baluchistan and even her death

48:58

i would say is so typical

49:00

saw symbolic of what's happening

49:02

with the baluchi the youth specially

49:05

like for example if i just look

49:07

at her the scenario

49:09

for does not only it's sad

49:11

but it's it represents village a son

49:13

in a way for us she gets disappeared

49:16

she goes missing or a day

49:19

and , next day a body is found

49:22

her dead body floating in the waters

49:24

and only difference with that compatible

49:27

a son is that most of the bodies found

49:29

of for the young people offer her age

49:32

are mostly bullet riddled

49:35

roger marks very obvious very clear

49:38

the

49:39

we're here it was a body

49:41

that has left many questions

49:44

and we're still struggling for the answers

49:47

finding

49:50

of answers won't be easy in

49:53

the course of this investigations people

49:55

broke their silence grieving family

49:57

members spoke those in hiding

49:59

my calls others shared documents

50:02

and every step of the ways assault the weight

50:05

of their trust and knew it was often a great

50:07

risk to even talk to me but

50:09

i also know they know that

50:11

this that this story that needs to be told

50:14

a story riddled with question marks that

50:16

has kept me digging deeper and

50:18

deeper

50:22

what really happened to karima why

50:24

did the authorities so quickly conclude

50:26

that she died by suicide and

50:28

or other actually targeted killings of pakistani

50:31

dissidents in the west the

50:36

answer this i began

50:37

for connections to the death of another

50:39

prominent pollutes dissidents only

50:41

eight months earlier suggest hussein's

50:44

body was found in sweden

50:46

and the cause of his death according to the

50:48

authorities

50:50

drowning

50:58

coming up on the kill list

51:03

the shooting at such a was murdered yes

51:06

absolutely one hundred percent of which cari my

51:08

used to be way stress about as well you know her

51:10

fear about maybe this could happen to

51:12

me because , my human rights activism

51:15

i was placed on a states can list

51:18

i had to see had save my life

51:20

the time that you know

51:22

you see things that he's in france and nice

51:25

far away from i reach a tell

51:27

him not to be mistaken

51:29

dot it said city mother loach

51:32

check and then it's hard for

51:34

side names with my name in a to sweat

51:36

that these people i get to be hundred

51:39

because you're doing this story i

51:41

don't want any aspect of this case

51:44

to be you know and doc for

51:46

you you should have should have

51:48

for

51:52

the team in the morning

51:54

this recording myself or my i phone

51:58

you know i've

51:59

the most difficult thing ever i do

52:02

my life

52:12

the ministry of foreign affairs

52:14

did not respond to requests for an interview

52:17

discuss the allegations against the states

52:19

that have been reported in the series

52:23

the kill list is created by me

52:25

mary link and written and produced along

52:28

with alina ghosts mixing and sound

52:30

design by julia whitman studio

52:32

direction by nancy reagan or story

52:34

editor is chris out and

52:36

leaks now is our digital producer fact

52:39

checking by emily much you legal

52:41

advice from saw a mormon special

52:43

thanks to the teeth joe hart or

52:46

, producer is sessile fernandez and

52:48

a director of cbc podcast is

52:50

our of ronnie if

52:53

anything you've heard in the series has

52:55

left you looking for someone to talk someone

52:58

please visit c b c

53:00

dot c a slash c

53:02

k slash resources we

53:04

have information there have those in need of

53:06

support and if you liked the series

53:09

please help others find it for leaving

53:11

us or view on your favorite podcast

53:13

up thank you

53:15

for listening that was the

53:18

first episode of the brand new series

53:20

the kill list you can listen to the

53:22

second episode right now on

53:24

the cbc listen app and

53:26

everywhere you get your podcasts

53:29

for more cbc podcasts go

53:31

to cbc dot ca a slash

53:33

podcasts