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2024. Things

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0:47

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birthday, Chip. Happy birthday. Hey there, it's the

0:59

NPR Politics Podcast. I'm Deepa Shivram. I cover

1:01

the White House. And I'm Asma Khalid. I

1:03

also cover the White House. And

1:05

I'm Greg Myry. I cover national security.

1:08

Today on the podcast, the state

1:10

of the Biden administration's support for

1:13

Israel, as Israel escalates their military

1:15

campaign on Rafa in the Gaza

1:17

Strip. Before we get into the

1:19

politics of all of this, Greg, you're here

1:21

with us. Tell me about what's been going

1:23

on in Rafa just the last few weeks.

1:25

I mean, this is the last major population

1:27

center in Gaza. For context, the

1:29

region is about 25 square

1:32

miles, right? It's like the size of Arlington,

1:34

Virginia or Newark, New Jersey. What's

1:36

been going on there, you know, in the last

1:38

several weeks of this war? Yeah, Rafa

1:40

is a very distinctive town. It's this sort

1:42

of dusty, ragged place at the southern

1:44

tip of Gaza on the border with

1:46

Egypt. It's often been the only way

1:49

for the residents of Gaza to get

1:51

in and out of the territory. This

1:53

crossing was controlled by Egypt, not by

1:55

Israel. Now, after the

1:57

Hamas attack back on October 7th,

2:00

Israel invades Gaza, it works its

2:02

way north to south. So many

2:04

of the civilians move south. They

2:06

congregate in Rafah. The population goes

2:08

from about 200,000 before the

2:10

war to well over a million people,

2:13

many of them. They're in

2:15

tent camps that have just emerged out of

2:17

nowhere on the empty, sandy lots around town.

2:20

Now, the U.S. and the international

2:22

community warned Israel against a major

2:25

operation in Gaza because there are

2:27

so many civilians concentrated there. But

2:29

Israel argued that this was the last

2:32

Hamas stronghold and they needed to defeat

2:34

Hamas there. Now, Israel waited

2:36

a while, but earlier this month it

2:39

took over the Rafah border crossing with

2:41

Egypt, and this was a limited operation.

2:44

And since then it's been carrying out airstrikes

2:46

in Gaza, and this has led many

2:48

of those displaced Palestinians to flee Rafah,

2:50

though there's really no place safe for

2:52

them to go. Right, because as you said,

2:54

this was a north to south operation this whole

2:57

time. And let's kind of

2:59

bring it to this moment. Over the

3:01

weekend, there was an airstrike that, according

3:03

to Israeli officials, targeted two Hamas leaders.

3:06

That strike resulted in more than 40 Palestinians

3:08

getting killed. I mean, this took place

3:11

on Sunday. Walk us through

3:13

exactly what you know and what happened. So,

3:15

Deepa, there's still some claims and counterclaims

3:17

that we're sorting through, but Israel

3:19

has acknowledged carrying out an airstrike.

3:21

It says it used a relatively

3:23

small bomb to target some Hamas

3:25

figures, but this strike either directly

3:27

or indirectly set off a fire

3:29

that raged through one of these

3:31

tent camps and killed more than

3:33

40 people. It appears most of

3:35

them are civilians. Now,

3:37

Israel's prime minister, Benjamin Netanyahu,

3:39

is calling it a tragic

3:42

accident, and he says Israel

3:44

is investigating. Now, Israel's raised

3:46

the possibility but hasn't provided

3:48

evidence that the airstrike may have

3:50

ignited a secondary explosion, some weapons

3:52

or some fuel, And

3:54

that Hamas is often the case is

3:56

operating close to civilians. But What we

3:59

do know for. Certain as we

4:01

have another very large Palestinian

4:03

civilian death toll that comes

4:05

from an Israeli strike in

4:07

Gaza that was packed with

4:09

civilians seeking shelter and has

4:11

provoked and international outcry. In

4:13

this this happened in those enchantments. That

4:15

that were where folks were am

4:17

seeking refuge. Especially Absolutely and see

4:20

your point read it has provoked

4:22

certainly in. International outcry? you seem kind

4:24

of nice, and from a number of

4:26

world leaders I'm thinking of friends as

4:28

President Myth Wrong who called for an

4:31

immediate ceasefire, but notably spirit the White

4:33

House and it has been relatively silent

4:35

publicly about this in over the weekend

4:37

or a spokesperson with a National Security

4:39

Council said that Israel has a right

4:42

to go after him as they did

4:44

describe as the situation. The images has

4:46

been devastating and heartbreaking, but he did

4:48

not echo any of the sort of

4:51

national outcry we saw at other places.

4:53

And then today I spoke with an

4:55

administration official earlier and what I was

4:57

told is that they are deeply concerned

5:00

about what happened over the weekend and

5:02

Rafa They are glad they said that

5:04

the Israeli military is going to be

5:06

conducting an investigation of what transpired. What

5:08

of those told is that at this

5:10

point they have seen no indication that

5:13

this was a deliberate move to target

5:15

civilians by the Israeli military. Am in

5:17

a by and large there have been

5:19

these moments I think that really provoke

5:21

a lot of concern. From the international

5:23

community again and again of the many months

5:25

of this war and we have seen time

5:28

and again the By administration has stood very

5:30

solidly behind Israel in occasionally I think offering

5:32

some moments of critique publicly but that's that's

5:34

not and the normally seen by the and

5:36

by and large support what has been going

5:38

on which I think raises the question of

5:41

whether or not there's really any moments that

5:43

would trigger I see and from this president

5:45

as a know this is enough to much

5:47

are we have not seen any indications of

5:49

that An awesome I mean speaking of one

5:51

of those moments. of critique right i mean there

5:54

was this pretty significant i would say our interview

5:56

that by did on cnn a couple weeks ago

5:58

that took place earlier this month And

6:00

he had said, on camera, that if there

6:02

were to be any kind of large-scale operation

6:05

in Tarafa, which Netanyahu, the Israeli Prime

6:08

Minister, had been talking about, that there

6:10

would be some kind of limit potentially

6:12

of U.S. military aid to Israel.

6:14

But from what we've heard from administration

6:16

officials, including folks like Jake Sullivan, John

6:18

Kirby, these smaller strikes don't

6:21

necessarily add up to that large-scale operation

6:23

that they're sort of looking out for.

6:25

I mean, the term they keep using

6:27

is they're warning Israel against smashing into

6:29

Raffa, right? We've heard that over and over again.

6:31

But it doesn't really necessarily amount to

6:34

that scale that they're

6:36

sort of warning Israel against. Is

6:38

that right? I mean, I did

6:40

explicitly ask an administration official today

6:42

if this strike was indeed indicative

6:45

of the Raffa invasion that this administration

6:47

has been warning Israel against. And what

6:49

I was told is this was not

6:51

that, that this was an airstrike. And

6:53

it was tragic nonetheless, but they have

6:55

not seen to your point the Israeli military

6:57

go smashing it into Raffa. I mean, my

7:00

question for you, Greg, is what does that

7:02

amount to, whether or not the Israeli military

7:04

goes in bit by bit by bit and

7:06

you see civilian casualties mount, or whether it is

7:08

a full ground invasion, does

7:10

it really matter if the end result

7:13

is just devastating civilian casualties? Well,

7:16

the answer, I guess, would be no, it

7:18

wouldn't matter if you get, especially if you

7:21

end up with the same result. And the

7:23

Israelis, I think, have certainly taken a different

7:25

approach in Raffa. They have not stormed in

7:27

with an all out frontal invasion, as we've

7:30

seen in some of the other places. They've

7:32

clearly taken some of this criticism into account.

7:35

Nonetheless, they say their goal is

7:37

to eliminate Hamas in the Raffa

7:39

area. Several thousand Hamas fighters are

7:41

still believed to be there. And

7:43

we're seeing it perhaps in a step

7:45

by step basis rather than in one all

7:48

out assault. And just to point out,

7:50

I mean, one thing that we continually hear from

7:52

the White House is that Israel does have a

7:54

right to go after Hamas. They are continuing their

7:56

strong stance on that and their support for Israel's

7:58

response here. So that's something we've heard. pretty

8:00

consistently. All right, we're gonna take a quick

8:02

break and more in a moment. I'm

8:05

Rachel Martin. You probably know how interview

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Listen to Wildcard wherever you get your

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this week's episode of Wildcard, poet laureate

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8:34

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about being in my mid to late

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40s, yeah, I forgive myself. Join

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9:31

And we're back. Asma, based on what you've been

9:33

reporting, I mean, I know we talked about this,

9:35

but do you see a point at

9:37

which President Biden might reconsider support for

9:39

Israel and their military campaign? I mean,

9:41

we haven't seen any evidence of that

9:43

up until this point, but the way

9:45

things are going, especially when you consider

9:47

that the election is five months away.

9:50

I mean, what do you think of that?

9:52

I would think we've been asking this iteration

9:55

of this question for many months, and we've

9:57

seen really no major movement from President Biden.

10:00

You know, whether or not you see

10:02

action from the International Criminal Court, right?

10:05

Whether or not you see other states

10:07

like Norway, Ireland, and Spain just today

10:09

officially recognizing Palestinian statehood. You have not

10:11

seen significant movement from President Biden. He

10:14

has, you know, expressed, I would say,

10:17

moments of frustration with how Israeli Prime

10:19

Minister Benjamin Netanyahu is conducting this war.

10:21

You have increasingly seen, I think, moments

10:23

where this White House is willing to

10:25

publicly offer some

10:28

degrees of criticism. But I think a

10:30

lot of this comes back to who President

10:32

Biden is at his core. He has long

10:34

held a deep connection to the state of

10:36

Israel, both personally and politically. And, you know,

10:38

I think the challenge for Biden is that

10:41

even domestically could argue politically, even his own

10:43

party has shifted a bit, but he has

10:45

not moved on this issue. And so you're

10:47

seeing more democratic lawmakers who are willing to

10:49

publicly criticize how this war is being conducted,

10:51

who are calling, I think, for greater action,

10:54

but you have not yet seen a monumental

10:56

shift from this White House. Yeah. And Greg,

10:58

I mean, as also pointed

11:00

out, this is coming at a time when

11:02

other world leaders, French President Macron, for example,

11:04

have become far more outspoken, especially when you

11:06

compare that language to what Joe Biden is

11:08

saying. How do you see that playing out?

11:10

I mean, are you anticipating other world leaders

11:12

joining, you know, where Macron is standing? And

11:14

does that kind of alienate Biden in a

11:17

way? Well, he's certainly been

11:19

out there on his own, even compared

11:21

to a lot of European leaders in

11:23

other countries that are supportive of Israel.

11:25

And the point I would just add

11:27

is that Israel has what it needs

11:29

to carry out this operation. So even

11:31

if Biden were to go further and

11:33

announce that he was cutting off more

11:36

weapons to Israel, that wouldn't affect

11:38

anything in the near term or the short

11:40

term of what Israel is doing in Gaza.

11:42

It would be a concern for Israel in

11:44

the longer term. They depend very heavily on

11:46

U.S. weaponry. If they were

11:48

to engage in a full fledged fight with

11:50

Hezbollah on their northern border, they would need

11:53

to be resupplied, and that U.S.

11:55

support is critical in the longer term. But what

11:57

we're seeing in Gaza, Israel has what it needs

11:59

to carry out. it needs to

12:01

continue this operation. Yeah. And

12:04

to bring in the politics of all of this for a

12:06

second here, I mean, Asma, you and I

12:08

have talked about this basically since October. Foreign policy

12:10

hasn't really been a known decider of presidential elections

12:12

in the past, but I think a lot of

12:14

folks that we talk to on the road and

12:16

out in the country see this very differently, right?

12:18

And it keeps coming up. You were just in

12:20

Georgia speaking with a lot of voters. It came

12:22

up repeatedly. It certainly comes up with a lot of

12:25

young voters I speak to who have not put

12:27

their phones down. We are

12:29

still seeing what's going on in the Middle

12:31

East, and it's really weighing in on their

12:33

decision to vote or not in November. I'm

12:36

curious how much the administration, from your

12:38

point of view, is maybe gauging

12:40

that, paying attention to that, and how

12:43

concerned they should be about this potential

12:45

lack of enthusiasm. Yeah. I

12:47

mean, I will say, brother, you don't get

12:49

a sense from this administration that they are

12:51

particularly concerned about young voters splitting off in

12:53

mass because of the war in Gaza. And

12:56

I would say that that doesn't really drive

12:58

to your point with what I've heard anecdotally.

13:00

When you talk to young voters on the

13:02

ground, particularly progressive young voters of color, the

13:05

war comes up unsolicited, in interview after interview.

13:07

I was rather struck by this in Georgia

13:09

because I did not anticipate it coming up

13:11

as frequently as it did. And one of

13:13

the things I noticed is that many of

13:15

these young voters consume a lot of news

13:17

on social media, and so they told me

13:20

that they have never seen a situation like

13:22

this where they are basically seeing elements of

13:24

this war being livestreamed. And so as a

13:26

result, because the United States has been offering

13:29

rather unconditional support of Israel,

13:31

they feel personally culpable and

13:33

personally responsible for this death.

13:36

And I was really struck by this deep

13:38

on this. I think it is very hard

13:40

for any politician to win over voters when

13:43

they feel morally responsible for something. I mean,

13:45

there's a young man I met, his name

13:47

is Adrian Konstner, he's 24 years old, a

13:49

young black man, and he said to me,

13:51

there is something so unsettling about seeing a

13:53

child that is no longer breathing. And

13:56

I asked him, what can you do, what can

13:58

Joe Biden do to make you supportive? Because

14:00

he he was a boat or for Joe

14:02

Biden four years ago and he said i

14:04

just need to feel comfortable with pudding Joe

14:06

Biden back in power and these moments happen

14:08

and then they hear You know what? Not

14:10

sort of a widespread condemnation from this White

14:12

House. I will say it doesn't necessarily make

14:15

some of the young voters feel more comfortable.

14:17

A big question though does remain about feel

14:19

how much of a factors will be because

14:21

as you say foreign policy is not routinely

14:23

an issue that many voters vote on. I

14:25

will also say though deeper this is something

14:27

I think in terms of the Axis on

14:29

social media. That is rather unprecedented. We have

14:31

not seen a moment like this. Politically, Greg,

14:33

I want to bring you back into the

14:35

fold here because I want to talk about

14:37

what happens from here. I mean, this all

14:39

happened on Sunday. Details are so unfolding, investigations

14:41

are happening, but what happens next? I mean,

14:43

what are you auction for. Well. Deeper

14:46

is appears increasingly clear Israel is

14:48

expanding it's military operation in Rafah.

14:50

Despite all this international criticism boat

14:52

as the government level and it's

14:54

the human personal level, Israel in

14:56

fact said today that it's military

14:59

has continued to operate in the

15:01

Rafa area. It didn't provide details,

15:03

but again it's been very clear

15:05

all along. The goal is to

15:07

clear out the remaining Hamas fighters

15:09

they are on. Israel's noted it

15:12

came under rocket attack in recent

15:14

days of from Hamas. Evidence that

15:16

Hamas is still fighting back and therefore

15:18

they need to continue with the Israeli

15:20

operations. Were getting reports from our M

15:23

P R colleagues on the ground that

15:25

Israel is carrying out more strikes in

15:27

Rafah today. They do appear to be

15:30

intensifying it, or our colleagues have also

15:32

spoken with Palestinians in Gaza who reported

15:34

seeing Israeli tanks operating in and around

15:37

the city. So Israel may have not

15:39

have wanted a major all out attacks,

15:41

but we do seem to be seeing

15:44

this step by step. Operation in Rafah

15:46

that continues to expand, continues to expand and

15:48

something we will continue to come back to

15:50

both of you for as we. Keep reporting on

15:52

nests. We're going to leave it there for today and

15:54

the for several. My cover the White House and I'm

15:57

a solid. I also cover the White House. And

15:59

I'm Greg. Sorry I cover national security.

16:01

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